glossy dew
Might have to get the controllers at least just for this game.. cant wait
#virtual-reality
haughty thistle
For any Canadians here waiting to order their Index, you can do so now apparently: https://www.reddit.com/r/ValveIndex/comments/dznc2f/index_is_available_in_canada/
sullen linden
I hate that Valve doesn' ship internationally. I guess they have serious production volume issues.
haughty thistle
It's more of an issue with distribution. Valve doesn't have distribution Centers all over the world, and unlike Google who would happily ship you a custom made case from China, Valve wants to keep shipping costs low...
sullen linden
Shipping cost is inflicted upon the consumer anyways. We are used to that in the EU. And we'd happyli pay the 100-200$ shipping.
haughty thistle
Hmm... My Valve Index was shipped with no shipping costs from the Netherlands to germany
My guess as to why the index is not available world-wide is currencies and maybe customs...
You see, the Index is not limited by region, it's limited by what currency Steam uses for you
The creates interesting areas like Switzerland, which is completely surrounded by countries that can recieve the Index, but people within switzerland can't get the index
haughty thistle
Nope. Switzerland uses exclusively the Swiss Franc
hexed notch
hmm i guess they just use euros in the airports...
haughty thistle
In Sweden, Steam uses the Euro though, even though Sweden has their own currency: the Swedish Krona
I only know this, because a friend in VRChat has bough their Index through Steam in Sweden, and the Swedish Krona also isn't listed on SteamDB.info
haughty thistle
I really don't know why the Swiss Franc is excluded, but the Polish Zloty is included for shipments of the Index though...
leaden hearth
has there ever been an app for phone vr (maybe similar to fulldive) that lets you use your phone (send texts, etc...) without the need to remove your phone from the headset?
twilit sage
Well, they should probably use the Euro for all EU member states as everyone in ERM2 has to adopt euro as soon as the requirements are met to move forward to ERM3
soft hound
UwU
fickle matrix
is there any point in me getting a vr headset if i have a very small room
haughty thistle
I mean, as long as you can stretch out your arms, without hitting anything, you can use any VR headset, that doesn't need additional room for like tracking stuff (something like a Rift S would be perfectly suited for smaller rooms)
gleaming grove
yeah. If you can 360 with arms stretched then it is okay
hexed notch
ask them
final yacht
but lo, he did not
regal nexus
sullen linden
@haughty thistle The index is not available in Norway either
junior lodge
what is vr exactly
sullen linden
Virtual reality?
young marten
View-able Real-estate
echo helm
Anyone want to buy me a index lmao after having my odyssesy + for over a year I love it but I can't stop about wanting a index
fleet halo
Sure, send me the money and I'll buy it
haughty thistle
From what I could gather, you'll only get HLA for free on the account the Index got bought on...
hexed notch
Yes
surreal tide
Well duh
hexed notch
hmm
gifting people indexes...
nope not a direct option lol
that would be really funny
getting the valve index as a steam item
autumn tangle
'Hello USERNAME. You have received a new item: Valve Index"
balmy osprey
lol
autumn tangle
darn i really killed the chat didn't i
haughty thistle
Nah... you didn't. It's just, that there is nothing really to talk about ^^"
autumn tangle
ok true
hexed notch
Rn we are holding our breath for boneworks
void grove
haughty thistle
💯% true
young marten
Not just medical, corporate, and sports but law enforcement as well the fbi used some modified vr headsets to train in different hostage scenarios
quiet saffron
whats the pros and cons of the rift and rift s?
i wanna get them cuz i really like the controllers, and want to know more about them both
hexed notch
rift has better tracking but needs hella usb ports
s is much sharper image wise
quiet saffron
so are they the same otherwise?
sullen linden
Rift uses outside in tracking while rift s is inside out
So I'd also say that the original rift has better tracking but you don't have to deal with setting up the sensors on the rift s
hexed notch
^
The hella USB ports can be a problem
Each camera takes up 3? USB devices out of a possible 64
So you generally will need to buy an extra USB controller add in card
I would recommend the quest or s over the og
But the og can be had for cheaper so...
Also solidly better tracking
Like it is noticeable when whipping hands around
Also shooting enemies behind you in superhot and pistol whip is a nice addition that the s and quest cant do
sullen linden
so which SteamVR games are not supported on WMR - windows mixed reality
green crypt
i think all work they just need support for the vive for wmr to work
have played a lot of games that don't support it but custom config and the vive support makes it work for all the ones i have played
ivory parrot
Each rift camera needs a FULL 3.0 port for the first 2
Or half
But they need a lot of bandwidth
I love my rift a lot
Once you get the wireless addon working its awesome
twilit sage
@quiet saffron Don't bother with the CV1 as Oculus doesn't make replacement parts for it anymore. Just get the Rift S or Index (or any other supported headset) instead
quiet saffron
Awsome thank you all souch for the halp, and Ima get the rift S (the index is hella expensive right?)
void grove
Yes, it's a grand
cinder bloom
I currently have my VR setup in my living room, with my PC in my computer room down the hall.
I did this by using an active USB 3.0 cable (80') and an active HDMI cable (75').
I ran the cables through my wall, hence the extra length needed since my room is only 30' away.
My question is, can Displayport be extended the same way? Because I want to upgrade from my original Vive to the Index in the near future, but it uses displayport rather than HDMI for its video connection.
hexed notch
soon ™️
quiet saffron
which headset has the best controlers?
hexed notch
index controllers
they can be purchased to use with the vive so its not just the index's controllers
its the index controllers / knuckles
quiet saffron
huh neat
so i could use the index controllers with the vive? can i use with the rift and rift S too?
hexed notch
😬 yes but no
the index controllers need vive trackers
if you want to buy the trackers on their own, its $300
the controllers are $300 about too
so
you can either spend $400 on an s?
or you can spend $500 and get the full index pack
and the index is better
just straight up
quiet saffron
oh dang
i assume i cant use the htc vive controllers with the rift S then?
my friend has a busted headset, and the controllers to his vive hes willing to give me
hexed notch
will he give you the trackers?
if he gives you the trackers get an index headset (you use the og vive trackers and the og controllers)
quiet saffron
trackers as in the bay stations?
hexed notch
yes
sullen linden
To me index controllers are the best too but there are times when I'd rather have the rift controllers for certain things but those are few
sullen linden
Well the rift controllers aren't as bulky and the times I'd prefer them over the index ones are for not so important reasons lol
Mostly because it's easier to trigger animations with gestures on vrchat and it's almost impossible to drink with the index controllers on your hands
hexed notch
they arent as bulky sure
but they are far less balanced
i have no problems doing stuff with the index controllers in my hands, and i have tiny hands
i havent had any problems in any of the games i play but i blame vr chat for that
sullen linden
Yes it's a vrchat problem
But those are really the only times I'd rather have the rift controllers
Also my index joysticks don't click in certain angles so there's that
hexed notch
you are one of the unlucky many
also that doesnt matter any more
sullen linden
I already replaced them once lol
sullen linden
I guess I'm just out of luck when it comes to controllers
hexed notch
also still no need imo
now that pushing the joystick to the edge of the ring counts as a click
sullen linden
Nothing that I can't bypass in games though
Yeah but you may need to change some settings or bindings in order for them to work without clicking
hexed notch
i dont have the click issue and i havent run into the need to click anything but centered
sullen linden
What games do you play?
I had to change the binding in arizona sunshine to be able to run
hexed notch
pistol whip
beat saber
budget cuts
mostly just pistol whip
and virtual desktop lol
sullen linden
Well those games don't use the click to sprint mechanic
sullen linden
My joysticks click fine if it's not pushed in any direction
hexed notch
oh and superhot vr
my trackpad clicks fine wherever 😛
i use my trackpad over my joysticks whenever possible
sullen linden
For games like onward, pavlov and contractors you need to find the setting for auto sprint when you push the joystick forward
hexed notch
having to change a setting does not sound particularly inconvenient
sullen linden
Well it's not as long as there is that setting
But games like arizona sunshine don't have that so I had to manually change the binding for the joystick to work like a dpad
void grove
Does anyone know if DP MST hubs work with the rift s?
haughty thistle
I think the Rift S requires the additional bandwidth that DP 1.2 offers and thus I don't think it'll work, unless you can find a MST hub, that uses DP 1.4? But don't quote me on that
void grove
I guess i should grab a 1070 it then. 
young marten
743
void grove
?
quiet saffron
How well would the 580 8 gig run beat saber?
haughty thistle
Depends on the headset as well
hexed notch
Probably run fine even on the index
swift knoll
I just ordered my index today!
void grove
flat marsh
My Rift S came in today, Index is the dream though
void grove
Rift S is nice.
Should probably play on it before my new monitor comes in, because I'll need to use DP on it and my 970 only has 1 DP port. :c
flat marsh
Yeah I had to swap all my cables and adapters around and now I need a longer HDMI cable
swift knoll
why must you put this in my library now, valve
void grove
lol
I'll probably pick it up when it releases, maybe I'll get lucky and it releases on my bday. 👀
void grove
OMG.
void grove
Same, but maybe Boneworks will tide you over. :V
sullen linden
void grove
swift knoll
void grove
lol
Oh, Netease is Chinese, makes sense
This seems very buzzwordy.
Cross-platform
I guess, but it looks like it's only releasing on PC with VR support
swift knoll
Lol
hexed notch
psvr?
void grove
Google just says Windows
void grove
void grove
Oh, I checked their twitter, and it is releasing on PSVR https://twitter.com/nostosgame
Twitter
weak bluff
China made games are getting good
gentle coral
I wonder what everyone here's opinion on the debate over whether Valve should keep alyx armless or give her arms and use IK for positioning.
PCgamer had two opposing articles on the topic within a day of each other.
https://www.pcgamer.com/alyx-needs-arms/
https://www.pcgamer.com/amp/keep-alyx-armless/
The instant me and a few other VR developers watched the trailer, we started discussing the issue as well.
Other then that, the game looks very interesting.
As a VR dev I am interested to find out how they will be doing dialogue as that could severely affect replayability and story depth. And if they will have parkour exploration (akin to mirrors edge, but with the fun physics of the half life and portal).
There is also the chance that they will have some unique modding opportunities (full body mocap, eye tracking, etc).
sly night
Is the odyssey+ really worth the black friday price, even as entry level? Really trying to get into the VR-space but would rather avoid the Oculus ecosystem and my GearVR isn't gonna run Alyx anytime soon
soft hound
What's wrong with the Oculus ecosystem?
abstract grove
tired crater
I have the Rift S and love it. Other than it being by Facebook what's wrong with it?
hexed notch
Lower refresh and similar tracking but more expensive
sly night
Personally? It's facebook and that's about it. Rift S looks awesome but i'm gonna shoot for the Odyssey+ exclusively for my "avoid facebook" stance.
void grove
Tbh, it'd probably flip my rift s and get an odyssey+ if ms offered better controllers for it.
dark marsh
@hexed notch more Expensive then what ? windows mixed ? the tracking is not on par at all compared to oculus.
hexed notch
You compared?
I thought the tracking on my cv1 was meh at best and the cv1 is better than the s
dark marsh
i have used almost every headset on the market now (My school has a vr-lab with even the Varjo 2.0) and i can tell you now that if done correctly with 3 sensor setup the CV1 the same as any Vive setup. and the oculus rift s + quest is very close to that of the cv1/vive just not back tracking and very fast movements. The windows Mixed headsets that i have used always has some kinda of controller jitter some worst then others the Oculus ones do not have any jitter and for normal games even beatsaber on expert they are 100% fine for any game. So for 399 they are the best to get if you dont want to get vive old one ( worst screens and more expensive at around 600) vive pro Way to expensive or Index thats $1000
tired crater
I've used a CV1 before, on a school field trip, and honestly, my Rift S is better in my opinion.
Aside from the refresh rate
sullen linden
whats a good affordable vr set to get as my first?
hexed notch
define affordable
sullen linden
like less than $700 canadian
glad sand
That or a Vive, either would be fine, personal preference really. Getting it used would be 
They're pretty cheap used, check r/HardwareSwap, for example
prisma delta
I got my Rift CV1 in the original packaging seemingly unused w touch controllers and the xbox controller for $200 on r/HardwareSwap
so ye, def recommend that
glad sand
You definitely can, but that's not worth the price premium
If you're on a budget, cop something used to hold you off until you can afford an Index if you want nicer VR, otherwise used is solid
hexed notch
if you want an index grab a used vive
safe ice
Looking into getting the oculus quest. Seems legit. Can you play steam games on it?
dark marsh
You can if you use the link with (USB 3.0) cable
Can also use things like alvr or virtual desktop to stream steam games to but had some latency
safe ice
Thank you for the help @dark marsh ! Is alvr pretty difficult to setup? I am looking at my options before I purchase the quest
glad sand
If you're playing Steam games, I'd recommend just getting a PCVR headset instead
safe ice
@glad sand I would honestly, however my specs barely reach minimum requirements
glad sand
What specs? If you got a used Rift, you could easily afford a GTX 1070 if the GPU is the problem for the same price as a Quest
hexed notch
Quest has higher reqs than rift and Vive...
haughty thistle
Yes, but if you intend on using the Quest with your PC with the Quest Link, it tends to be more similar to the Rift CV1. The Rift S is an actual increase in PCVR quality
modest quartz
Hey, I'd just like to say that I'm really good at Beat Saber and I play on Vive. So hi! :)
I intend to go to the BC meetup that's gonna happen in a few months
If you're Canadian and play Beat Saber, let me know so I can get you invited to the Canadian Beat Saber discord. Alternatively, I'd like to make sure that people are aware of the Beat Saber Modding Group discord and that they should join that as well. Him me up in dms for links :)
I don't intend this to be an advert as much as I intend it to be guiding people to resources to take their game up to the next level. If this is an advertisment then I'm sorry.
There's also the Beat Saber wiki https://bsmg.wiki/
haughty thistle
The BeatSaber mapping extension mod is a must have. Imo it allows for way more interesting maps
Coming to think of it:
Linus was playing BeatSaber this morning (German Time) and I tried to get him playing "Palm Trees" (which he obviously didn't). Even still, that map requires the Mapping Extension mod and that map looks beautiful af
severe tartan
I just got a quest for christmas and ive got to say i love it! anyone have any recommendations for me to have a better user experience? accessories, modifications, ect.
haughty thistle
I would suggest, if you are fine with modding the headset itself, to upgrade to the Vive Deluxe Audio strap. It's apparently way more comfortable and has way better headphones as well
tawdry gyro
What VR headset should I get? any opinions/recommendations?
haughty thistle
It depends on your budget, what you want to mostly do with that headset and what PC specs you have
It can also depend on where you live as well
So here's a quick guide on VR headsets:
You want to take your headset around a lot (like hotels, showing it to friends, etc.) and you don't have a powerful Gaming Laptop OR you don't have a powerful PC and are limited in budget, the Oculus Quest is the Headset for you
If you want to mainly play at home and money wise you are Restricted still, then it depends on what you find more important and you can get cheaper:
- The Samsung Odyssey is only available in NA and South Korea and has higher-Res OLED panels with pretty good built-in headphones
- The Oculus Rift S has the better tracking System and imo the better controllers + Native support for Oculus exclusive Titles
And if your budgetary constraints aren't that big and you can either afford a powerful rig as well or already have one: Go for the Valve Index. it is by far the best VR experience you can get rn, but it costs $1K and as said requires a powerful rig.
In any case, don't get the Vive Cosmos as it is plagued by issues, some of them HW-issues.
Ofc in the cheaper PC headset space, if you can finda used Rift CV1 or a used OG Vive and are fine with that, sure go for one of them, as they have less HW-Requirements and are still pretty good headsets. They just aren't sold new anymore
cloud pier
I'd prefer the CV1 over the Rift S.
I do NOT like the halo-type of head mount x'D
I have a Quest myself though.
I've had the CV1 3 times, a Vive once, and now this Quest 64gb.
(3 times cause I got into VR, then out of it, then into it again.)
haughty thistle
I've actaully went through 2 headsets before setteling on one and recently used a fourth headset I borrowed while I couldn't use my main one.
It all started with a Sale on a Lenovo Explorer, then got a Vive because the Lenovo was scratching my Glasses, then switched the Index, because I wanted it and recently borrowed a Rift S.
Hachiro, say how is the Quest Link, really like a Rift CV1 with less SDE?
cloud pier
I haven't tried that yet. Mainly cause the recommended Anker 10ft cables are out of stock on Amazon.
haughty thistle
oh.. RIP
cloud pier
I'll definitely use it at some point. Especially if I get back into sim racing.
hexed notch
@haughty thistle the Odyssey+ is available in the us...
haughty thistle
It used to be. I know someone (also German) who imported his from the US. And it was offered by Samsung themselves on Amazon
craggy salmon
Also, refurbished Vives are still for sale from HTC for the same price as Rift S. Gives you a possible upgrade path to the Index in the future.
wooden apex
craggy salmon
Recently open-sourced, but a dead end, of course.
frigid fractal
sullen linden
Save up and get something actually worth your money
Or try to find a good deal on a used oculus rift
glad sand
^ Yeah, used CV1 Rifts go for ~200, that extra 50 bucks will go a looong way
sullen linden
Who here went from vive to index?
I got a few questions
Also does anyone know if steam tracking 2.0 is any better than 1.0
jovial gulch
Hi dudes,
we published our 1st public app today on sidequest,
Any feedback would be nice,
(be kind, this is pre-alpha stuff)
Ps : this little game is meant to allow our customers to test out our Haptic gun stocks on Quest, feel free to give it a try even if you don't own a gun stock
https://xpan.cc/a-364
reminder : enyone can ping us for VR specific questions,
would be happy to help and can cause we own and use quite every VR system.... I'm of course a huge fan of ALL linus media group prods
@sullen linden the main "good point" of 1.0 lighthouses vs 2.0 is the possibility to use more than 2 at the same time
haughty thistle
No. You can only use either 1.0 or 2.0 lighthouses. Also another benefit I don't see very often described in 1.0 vs 2.0 is that the 1.0 lighthouses have to either be able to see each other or you have to connect them together with an audio-cable. The 2.0 lighthouses don't need either as far as I can tell.
This also allows for more than 2 v2.0 lighthouses to be connected to each other. Currently there is a limit of 4 lighthouses and the main purpose is to allow for bigger playspaces, but this can be also used to possibly cover more dead-spots
hexed notch
The 2.0 houses I believe need to see each other once during setup
And I've noticed if I cover one sensor I still have full tracking, just not behind the back, idk if that's a lighthouse thing in general or a 2.0 thing
sullen linden
Either way I have both now because the valve index kit without base stations was sold out
haughty thistle
The sensors on the controllers and headset obviously need to see at least one lighthouse to be able to track the device.
hexed notch
For setup tho both need to be seen at the same time by some device
I don't see how it could work otherwise
Hmm now I'm curious how they calibrate all 4
haughty thistle
Actually, Valve said in their own documents that for 180° Vr you only need one lighthouse
sullen linden
Oh also on 2.0 do they still have to be spurned in the ceeling or could you put them like neck height
hexed notch
I had them sitting on random objects lol
One was waist height
One was on top of a bookshelf
sullen linden
That'll be nice
haughty thistle
The 1.0s worked when placed at waist height, but it is not reccomennded as it can trip up the synchronazition
haughty thistle
The 2.0 Lighthouses Valve had one in their advertising that was placed on a table on waist hieght, so it's obviously no longer required
sullen linden
I have wall mounts in my room but I was thinking more if I wanted to game in the living room
Or outside
haughty thistle
I think you get mounting hardware for both wall-mounting and ceiling-mounting with all of the lighthouses (at least with the ones that come included with the headsets)
sullen linden
You do but it's hard to move them around
Once you have everything screwed in
I also could never get those drywall anchors to work so my mounts are drilled right into the beams
haughty thistle
The Mounting stands that come with the index can be put onto like tables and stuff. I wouldn't do the same with the ones that came with the OG Vive tho
hexed notch
the mounting that comes with the index can go into walls...
there are little holes for nails or similar
haughty thistle
Yeah, because my walls don't reall hold anything, even if I use drywall anchors, I just screwed the mounts into my wooden ceiling
Yeah, but you can also put it on tables without screwing them in
hexed notch
yea
sullen linden
Wait so do vive mounts work with new base stations?
hexed notch
well you can also put the lighthouses straight on the table
sullen linden
Because then I might just keep the new ones
And use the ones that are already screwed in
haughty thistle
Yeah, the Vive mounts are just standard camera mounting screws and they are also used on the new lighthouses
hexed notch
^
sullen linden
Nice
haughty thistle
Also, I would suggest to angle the lighthouses into the direction of your headset, so that when you get closer to them, you headset doesn't stop tracking ^^
sullen linden
Yeah I already have
I've been using my vive for 3 years
I have my system pretty much down
haughty thistle
^ Unless ofc you want to sell your vive
sullen linden
Eh I'm not really big on that, I'm just gonna use the v2's and move em if I want
I'm lending my vive to my brother
sullen linden
Since hes getting a gaming pc
Yeah
Also 2 gaming pcs? If I had that money I'd just get one really good one
sullen linden
I have a 1070
Ti
And I'm getting a micro atx pc case mobo and new processor soon
I'm just gonna use that
hexed notch
yea like 1070 is the min for the index (for a very smooth experience)
a 1070ti is pretty decently ahead of that
hexed notch
then you will have 2 pcs
hexed notch
ah
hexed notch
yea i kept my old stuffs for the sentimental value
sullen linden
I'm giving my full size atx and mobo with an intel 6700k to my brother
hexed notch
lucky him
sullen linden
And I'm getting a amd ryzen 7 2700x
hexed notch
downgrade?
sullen linden
Is that a downgrade?
hexed notch
you doing production stuffs?
sullen linden
I thought ryzen 7 was better
hexed notch
for gaming its a tiny bit slower
for production and video work its better
muuuuuuuch better
sullen linden
Should I stick with the i7 then?
sullen linden
I cant find a 7 3600
hexed notch
its a 5
sullen linden
Ah I see
Well uh its actually too late now
But I can decide what to give my brother, should I stick with the intel and wait to upgrade or just switch to amd now for a smaller pc?
sullen linden
Boneworks?
hexed notch
gpu
hexed notch
vr cares about enough cpu, and both are enough
its gpu that makes or breaks the experience
sullen linden
Well I mean my gpu is nice so
I'm actually probably just gonna start working and get a 2060
And a better processor and mobo
sullen linden
I'm gonna be real honest with you
hexed notch
(within 5%)
sullen linden
I have no fucking clue about what I'm doing so I associate higher number= better
LOL
hexed notch
first digits are generation
last digits are tier
20 is 1 generation (newer)
60 means 1 tier below 70
ti means its a half tier up
sullen linden
Well I knew that
hexed notch
and unfortunately for you the 10 to 20 improvement was 1.5 tiers
10 series was a solid 2 tier improvement
and that was very nice
20 is less impressive
hexed notch
thats how much a 1080ti cost before the 20 series launched 🤷♂️
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-founders-edition-8gb-gddr6-pci-express-3-0-graphics-card/6291648.p?skuId=6291648
and they are available for sub $700
hexed notch
buying a 1070ti for 500$ now would be a bit much
but performance wise a 2060s is only barely better and its really new and $400 minimum
hexed notch
yea so you are like pretty solidly ahead
sullen linden
So anyways what I have rn is a corsair 750 pcu, cpu is intel 6700k, 1070ti and some motherboard from 2014
sullen linden
I'm upgrading to a new AMD b450 plus and ryzen 7 2700k
I think its currently a z170-k
hexed notch
b450 gaming plus from msi?
sullen linden
Yea I think so
hexed notch
thats a very good board
sullen linden
Tuf gaming tho
sullen linden
Oh nvm then
hexed notch
and the tuf boards arent great
sullen linden
So I've heard
hexed notch
lemme grab the list of good boards
sullen linden
Alright
hexed notch
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d9_E3h8bLp-TXr-0zTJFqqVxdCR9daIVNyMatydkpFA/htmlview?sle=true#gid=639584818
x in far left column is fine
but anywhere else an x means its probably bad
orange in second column is meh but its fine
sullen linden
Can you return things on newegg?
hexed notch
yea
but its a pain
im looking again at this list and actually its orange in second column not red
so actually its probably acceptable
sullen linden
The one I have now?
hexed notch
yea
sullen linden
Ah alright
hexed notch
no big overclocking
sullen linden
So I could return the ryzen 7 2700x and get a ryzen 5 3600
hexed notch
yea
sullen linden
Should I do that?
hexed notch
if you dont produce videos and stuff probably yea
hexed notch
3000 is less fragmented than 2000 in terms of numa
so physics will probably do better on the 3600 even tho it has fewer cores
sullen linden
Hmmm
Alright
I'll see what I can do
I might
I might be able to upgrade to a 7 3700x @hexed notch
If I pay the difference
sullen linden
You dont think?
hexed notch
?
sullen linden
Like so let's say I put the ryzen 5 3600 vs the 7 3700x
Would it be barely noticable?
hexed notch
imma find exact numbers
hexed notch
dangit anandtech why u no have 3600 in 3700x review
no 3600 but all of ryzen 3000 is all around the same
see how 2700x is basically 7700k
and well
7700k = 6700k
haughty thistle
Only get a Threadripper, if you do need the higher core-count
hexed notch
the 24 and 32 cores are neat bc blender and stuffs
16 core and lower, get ryzen (numbered ones i mean)
sullen linden
Lol ok
hexed notch
if its more than 10 avoid
hexed notch
yea 😬
3700x vs 3800x is same story btw unless you want world records on the cheap
Oh also you need the 2700x to upgrade your bios of your motherboard
So don't return it before you boot and update your bios
Or else return both
sullen linden
K
sullen linden
@hexed notch how do I upgrade bios?
hexed notch
if you have a fat32 usb drive, download the bios from asus, go into bios
look for option to flash
done
if not, download winflash from asus and run that
sullen linden
kk
gleaming grove
Just tried Osmo VR walking track thing. It is interesting concept but so many cons ATM
gleaming grove
Cons: You can only walk forwards even if you move feet back ATM.
There is a noticeable delay when you walk and move in game, this could make a lot of people nauseous for me it thankfully didn't.
Got to try the HTC Cosmos as well and 1 song of Beat Saber and lost the tracking of the controllers like 10 times in a song.
void grove
Elite Dangerous is 75% off on humble store rn.
void grove
reminder that Boneworks releases tomorrow.
void grove
Now it's today
sullen linden
Timezones be like that
surreal tide
Aaaaaa boneworks
void grove
🦴 👷
Wait, i just came up with the most amazing idea, pinball fx 3, with native vr support
haughty thistle
Only 1 more hour till Boneworks release 🎉
sullen linden
That's AM
void grove
I'm guessing UK?
sullen linden
Close, Finland
haughty thistle
Huh... I remember seeing a live ticker that was pointing at 6pm CET, which is in about half an hour. guess that live-ticker was wrong then :/
gleaming grove
PST is california time?
gleaming grove
So that is 9 hours of us in CET
haughty thistle
Man, I was already getting hyped to start playing Boneworks after dinner, but since it gets released an hour later than I anticipated, I will have to wait after dinner to start downloading in the first place 😦
void grove
:c
void grove
I was put off by boneworks' mixed review tag, but it seems that it might just be an issue with wmr.
hexed notch
Looks like it yea
haughty thistle
I think I'm just too stupid to play the game xD
Got stuck right after the tutorial section ^^"
green crypt
i'm waiting a bit before i'll get boneworks as i need the wmr support to be good
or at least if people have made good custom bindings that change the wmr reviews to not have problems
void sky
Anybody with boneworks feel like uploading the files to google drive or something reliable?
Getting insanely slow download on steam right now.
Keen to play, thanks in advance.
sullen linden
Boneworks is fucking amazing. Only played for like 2 hours but I can't wait to get home after work again
void sky
Awesome! My wife bought it for me.
She saw it on my wishlist lol.
Speed has picked back up, not sure what was wrong, so I'll be playing soon 🙂
void sky
That's more like it!
glossy stump
Idk if here is best to ask. But im about to upgrade my Graphic card. I got a few questions though. What is best for VR? AMD or Nvidia? I dont have an prefference personally.
Next is. Either of them have so many variants of their high tier graphic cards that i cant find head or tail in which one to choose.
My focus for the Graphic card is VR. Desktop games comes second. But VR is very important with how it can perform.
crude oracle
If you're willing to go used, look at 1070's or 1070 ti's. They range from $150 to $250. Good performance for your money.
@glossy stump
glad sand
Agreed with above^ 1070s would be the best way to go imo, or even 980 Tis if you find a great deal
*Used of course, don't buy new
glossy stump
I currently have an 980 ti
But was thinking about an upgrade.
I have decided now though. Thanks for input
glad sand
I agree, 980Ti is solid for VR still. Only real upgrade (that makes sense cost-wise) would be like a 1080 Ti for 400-450
sly night
How well would a 2060 perform on an index?
hexed notch
good enough, theres a res slider
sullen linden
You probably wont be able to fully utilize the refresh rate of the headset but should be very playable
hexed notch
either the res or the refresh pick one lol
haughty thistle
You know, to download Boneworks within the first hour of release, I switched my download server to Osaka, Japan, because they were sleeping over there and so the servers were pretty much without any load xD
void grove
lol
haughty thistle
Yeah, downloaded it within 5 minutes or so of release xD
void grove
sand swan
Boneworks is great butI still can't get used to simulated weight in VR games.
hexed notch
Think of it like actual things and it works for me
haughty thistle
Yeah, what I also still can't get over with is how the hands sometimes get stuck behind certain things. I once got one of my hands stuck inside a trashcan after I was holding it from the outside
void grove
Vr controlers that simulate weight when? 
gentle coral
Soon, though it is weird. Torque based controls are currently much better developed. Tactical haptics currently is the best in terms of accuracy, but their marketing strategy is weird.
Tried it at GDC last year, and it was a lot of fun.
But the controllers are extremely bulky and have these cotroller connectors that I think are not useful for most games.
gentle coral
Actual mass vectoring via gyros would be somewhat hard to do in a small form factor especially if you need instant force interactions in a specific direction (sword hitting armor, punching a wall, etc). Especially if you want to feel tons of resistance.
Torque and friction will be the next major hand controller improvements, especially with new haptic technology.
So far my favorite tech is novasentis, and foldaway haptics (I've tried novasentis, but not foldaway).
A good article about these types of haptics
sullen linden
I only have one more level left in boneworks, feels bad man
The game is really good but kinda short
void grove
How long is it?
sullen linden
I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out secrets but I've only played 6 hours so far
The last level will probably take another hour or two
So I'd say the game is probably close to 8 hours
haughty thistle
Lol I'm at 8 hours in Boneworks and I'm probably not nearly finished?
For anyone who has played the game through, how far am I? ||I'm currently at the Sewers level||
sullen linden
I think it's like the 4th or 3rd to last
You can see all the levels in the main menu on the back left wall
Or left side of the exit door behind you I should say
surreal tide
Is there any way to disable the thumbstick sensor on the rift s or something? My vrchat avatar has a feature that activates when my thumb is down and its so annoying having it activate whenever I move
cedar heath
Boneworks is great
sullen linden
@surreal tide What gesture triggers the animation?
surreal tide
Having the thumb down
No other finger
Like if you touch the buttons or thumbstick
haughty thistle
The thing that I don't understand is, why can you disable finger gestures on the Index by pressing in the left thumbstick, but not on any of the Oculus headsets?
Because afaik there is no way to disable them on Oculus
sullen linden
@surreal tide Sounds like whoever made the avatar overrid the idle hand gesture for some reason. Just try moving while doing the point gesture unless that triggers something too
void grove
Random thing, the straps on my touch controllers were a little messed up, but I was able to correct them! :D
cloud pier
I prefer the strap of the CV1 controllers. These new straps get loose, and I don't like the texture.
..Gonna see if I can find a set of broken / for parts CV1 controllers on ebay.
Ehh. Price not worth it, just to take the straps from them.
green crypt
if the cv1 straps are like wii motes straps you can get those straps cheap even new ones that are cloth and clicking close
sweet crag
Anyone know where to get good deal on original Vive
haughty thistle
Sometimes the used market. The Vive is no longer in production and thus is no longer being sold in retail
void grove
There's a company that makes knuckle grips for touch v2
orchid gale
Wouldn't that also work for the touch v1 because they use the same base handle?
gentle coral
My friend got a variant of those knuckle grips for quest controllers and they work quite well.
void grove
I think mrtv has a video where he uses camera grips for the same thing
But i think the product i linked looks more elegant
green crypt
mrtv has used camera straps and later on that product that product is a bit more elegant and fits more people
autumn tangle
beatsaber360 is addictive
but i really really need a better way of cable managing
im currently using a cable tie lttstore.com
that sticks it ontop of my pc
@sweet crag vive pre-owned?
sweet crag
Ye it would have to ship to Ireland though @autumn tangle
autumn tangle
my pc will be undergoing its first upgrade
adding a hdd so i can play more of dem vr games
hexed notch
Hm I wouldn't put games for vr on an hdd
soft hound
Low latency SSDs for VR strongly recommended, so no worrying about the game freezing while the HDD starts to spin back up to load the next part or texture in the game
Had that issue when I tried VR off of my HDD, games kept freezing for a couple of seconds while things loaded in
autumn tangle
i use a ssd for most things
but omg
too expensive
i got such a good deal on a 860evo
autumn tangle
i already bought the hdd
hexed notch
ah
hexed notch
well dont put boneworks on it
autumn tangle
ok
i'm going to move most of my games over to the hdd
they use the most space
dirt big
hexed notch
Lol
Ark is 150gb
Lemme grab my screenshot
Shoot it's at home
Tldr 5tb of games installed
buoyant pecan
Been using the Oculus Quest for a while now, but recently took my old 360 kinect out of storage to setup full body tracking! Totally worth it! 💯
hexed notch
Nice lol
buoyant pecan
^ I use a combination of Virtual Desktop, A Sideloaded Quest, and the Kinect to setup it
Also, Has anyone tried playing on the Minecraft Server with Vivecraft / Minecraft VR? I know some servers think it's a hack but in reality it's a mod like optifine, in fact the mod is just the Oculus SDK in Minecraft with Optifine integrated. I would join with it, but don't want a big fat ban.
glad sand
SSDs really ain't that expensive anymore, recently got a brand new Crucial MX500 500GB one for 25 bucks
safe ice
so I just ordered my quest about a day ago and paid via paypal. didn't take money out of my account yet? also mentioned it won't ship till january 20th? are they backed up with orders right now or something?
left coral
Sounds like you should call them; we'd have no way to know if they're backed up, or why your order is delayed so long.
cloud pier
They might take the money out once it ships, like Amazon does sometimes.
hexed notch
Generally you pay when it ships
crude heath
if its on amazon in some places they are out of stock for most oculus products
autumn tangle
@glad sand but that's 500gb. Pretty small in the long run.
sullen linden
I just bought an intel 660p 1Tb ssd for 100€
That's pretty cheap for an nvme in my opinion
sullen linden
How so
sullen linden
Advertised write is 1800 mb/s?
hexed notch
Actual drops to 90
sullen linden
Well I'm only going to be putting games on there anyway
hexed notch
Yea it's good for game storage not as good as the generic phison+Toshiba ssds but still good
green crypt
i would rather get an adata xpg sx8200 then a 660p or a sabrent rocket
green crypt
it's not the worst but there are better options for a small bit more
hexed notch
Inland premium was what I got and it beats it's advertised by a decent bit
haughty thistle
Yeah, Linus once made a Video about the 660p. It's a QLC SSD, which I wouldn't recommend, unless it's the Solid-State part of the SSD you're going for and nothing else really...
sullen linden
The adata one is at least 60€ more expensive
green crypt
still the adata xpg sx8200pro is tlc and it's most of the time not much more expensive then a 660p which is qlc
haughty thistle
QLC SSDs tend to not have as long of a lifespan and are slower than an HDD once the SLC cache runs out. which might, or might not happen depending on what loads you are putting on it
sullen linden
And they don't sell the sabrent rockets here
hexed notch
Inland premium?
sullen linden
I don't really know what that means
hexed notch
It's a drive
sullen linden
Oh
hexed notch
It's the exact same drive as the sabrent and adata
sullen linden
Nope not available
hexed notch
Ripp
sullen linden
It's only available on amazon and I'm not paying 40€ for shipping lol
hexed notch
Now we know, in the wild west of not us the 660p is the cheapest nvme
sullen linden
There is a kingston A2000 1Tb for 120€ but I haven't heard very good things about kingston drives
sullen linden
Yeah they are strange sometimes
sullen linden
@hexed notch I found a crucial P1 1Tb for 110€, are those good?
sullen linden
Welp time to cancel my order then lol
hexed notch
is it cheaper?
sullen linden
10€ more
prisma delta
I'm super late, but I can vouch for the ADATA XPG SX8200
i've got one and it's been doing me great
void marsh
so what does #virtual-reality stands for?, I see you are talking about SSDs
haughty thistle
VR = Virtual Reality
green crypt
talking about vr and there was a chat on what ssd was good to have as a game drive for vrgames
haughty thistle
They only started talking about SSDs because someone was gathering storage for VR titles
sullen linden
Yeah I got a bit carried away with the ssd subject I know
hexed notch
Naw it's good
autumn tangle
ssds and hdds have to do with steam and steam has to do with vr so its vr
in the last 2 weeks this is how long i played vr for in hours each day
hexed notch
Winter break
hexed notch
Summer? You a southern hemisphere peep?
hexed notch
?
Oh I was talking about the 9 hours a day
You were talking about the total hours?
autumn tangle
kinda
9 hours a day
that i kinda doubt
i just went
135 / 14 = 9hrs
but
i dunno
probably should be limiting myself
hexed notch
ya think?
sullen linden
Reminds me of that one time I was in vrchat for 18 hours lol
The annoying part was sitting still while I was charging my controllers and fbt
autumn tangle
what if they create
really long charging cables
like
5m
wait
even better idea
what if you make a splitter
that uses the index usb mod port or the vive usb port
to charge your controllers
hexed notch
It wouldn't charge super fast...
My system is a battery bank with 2 cables running out of it
autumn tangle
look at these savings!
gentle coral
Anyone else here been doing beat saber 360 an 90? It is really fun.
haughty thistle
360 has been the best addition to Beat Saber since it's release imo
gentle coral
I would definitely agree, I hope they add more options for 360, like single blade, and no arrow modes (the non penalty high difficulty versions)
young marten
here is the proper way to use the index frunk (not mine/me in the photo btw)
autumn tangle
360 beat saber
glide makes you turn 360 in one direction
aka
wrap yourself up
this wouldn't happen
if my headset
had a good tether position
hpwmr headsets have the tether port on the side, not the top
but i love it
haughty thistle
HP WMR? Which HP headset if I may ask?
The Reverb or the VR1000?
@autumn tangle
autumn tangle
vr1000
the best name
also, all vr tethers (excluding vive 3in1 i belive) are optical
and i'm almost certain you can use a Oculink™️ cable on other headsets
haughty thistle
I know that most WMR headset have crazy short tethers and was even surprised by the tether length on the Rift S, which is about a meter short of the Index tether. It's surprising how much this 1 meter length difference can make tbh
haughty thistle
The actual cable on the Index is 5m, but the breakout cable with the power in, DP and USB 3 connectors is another meter so effectively, yes 6 meters
I used to own a Lenovo explorer which only has a 3m cable. Like, who's gonna play Roomscale with that?!
sullen linden
the htc vive is pretty sick.... until the link box dies
or until you need to charge the controllers
haughty thistle
Yeah, wasn't the battery life on the old Vive wands really bad like 5 hours?
autumn tangle
but atleast its rechargable
biggest issue with wmr controllers is the replaceable batterys
green crypt
well it's also nice to just swap rechagable aa batteries
autumn tangle
problem is for me
haughty thistle
Yeah the battery life on the WMR controllers just suck. 10 hours on 2 AA Alkaline batteries for each controller
autumn tangle
i broke my wrist strap thingy
so i use a rubberband to keep it on
so taking off the battery door is too hard
because i have to re-tighten the band
green crypt
one of my wmr straps is also broken but i put glue pads on the strap on the inside of the battery door and tape the battery door shut with normal tape
autumn tangle
yes i taped one of my controllers battery door too
haughty thistle
The straps on my WMR controllers didn't really stick at all. The Vive ones are a lot better. Haven't tried the hand straps on the Index Controllers, because imo they aren't needed...
autumn tangle
wish i had more of dem
the psmove controller straps
psvr was actually my first headset
then i got my wmr
so basically
i bought the same headset twice but one has 360 support and is pcvr
haughty thistle
I mean, if I still had been using WMR as my main Headset I would probably swap the straps out for something like on the Switch straps, as I don't use the straps on the Switch xD
haughty thistle
You can't? I though they were only loosely placed inside them and all you gotta do is unscrew the damn' thing
haughty thistle
Ohh... kinda like the non-standard strap mounts on the Oculus controllers, just a bit more standard?
autumn tangle
you need one of those ornament hanger thingy's on it
probably
if i'm correct
its just going to be one piece of fabric
looped together with something
green crypt
this is how my strap keeps being in it
autumn tangle
looks like you put shaving cream in there
autumn tangle
what i hate the most about wmr
is it takes up 9gb
just for the portal
literally 2 rooms
and some ui
9gb
its all of those stupid 3d models
haughty thistle
Wait, they increased it? It used to be just 6GB
green crypt
well 9gb is not that bad at least there are no adds like oculus is adding on their platform
green crypt
yeah they are adding adds to some oculus software
autumn tangle
pay money to be seen by no one™️
if you have a vr headset
you probably wont click on those ads
this is why i unlinked my fully un used fb from oculus
first time opening in a while
thanks for telling me about something i was literally just talking about
haughty thistle
My Oculus account isn't even linked to any FB account, because guess what? I don't even own an FB account, except for that shadow profile they have of everyone
green crypt
yeah facebook is iritating some people link their facebook account as it gives you some options to have friends but steam vr is way better then oculus vr i conver oculus users that play vrchat to go to steam vr as playspacemover and just becouse it's more stable
autumn tangle
yea
steam vr is great
not to mention the new ui update
now they just need to do the same for big picture
green crypt
the new ui is a bit nicer i like that i can now see my monitor more clearly
haughty thistle
Honestly, I was never a fan of how SteamVR was handeling the Desktop interface, but it's a lot better since the UI update
autumn tangle
makes the dashboard smaller
green crypt
as before it was all monitors in one tab now i have one tab for one monitor
green crypt
i can't run the beta version as i use plugins and plugins and the beta is just not smart
autumn tangle
if you saw my """desk""" you'd see why
i dont use beta
i use this feature called advanced options
in the new settings ui
haughty thistle
The worst part used to be with SteamVR desktop view, if your Desktop canvas exceeded a certain resolution it would only capture the Desktop at 5fps. The Desktop canvas is not just both monitors combined but also their offsets are taken into account
autumn tangle
i didn't use it
didn't have a windows button
kinda important
no alt tab either
green crypt
i use advanced settings an a thing that allows a kinnect to work in vr by making it emulate steam vr contorlers forgot the name off it
haughty thistle
The new Desktop view on SteamVR fixes both the 5fps issue for me as well as the tiny text. Trust me, you could not handle multiple 1440p monitors in SteamVR before this update
green crypt
openvr input emulator it's pretty useful
autumn tangle
i'll be able to almost fully switch to linux
green crypt
having a 4k and a 1080p monitor was also unusable at best
autumn tangle
if i get a vive
haughty thistle
The problem with VR is that almost all applications are exclusively made for windows, and Proton isn't good enough yet to get VR running on Linux sadly
At least from what I know
autumn tangle
bs is on linux
haughty thistle
It is?
it doesn#t say anywhere on the Steam Store page
sweet crag
Is the rift s worth it
haughty thistle
If you don't have the money for an Index and don't really care about the portability of the Quest, yes
willow crypt
Wanna get index as my og rift cv1 is not great resolution but gotts upgrade pc and all that first
sweet crag
What graphics card do I need for the rift s
green crypt
1660supper is a good minimum gpu if you want to buy it new
green crypt
the supper is just better value then the 1660 and the 1660ti is also worse value as it's most of the time more expensive then the 1660supper by 40usd and it's only 3% better
sweet crag
What about the amd side
sweet crag
Thanks
gleaming grove
Yeah that is already like 2-3 days like that
At least for EU
The second thing I did see 
autumn tangle
old
gleaming grove
That is ultra
gleaming grove
Yeah most likely
gleaming grove
IDK why they don't let you at least pre order it to secure the exclusive skins
You would always get the the Half Life @autumn tangle Even before that change. They only changed that you get those exclusive skins as well now
autumn tangle
oh
timid pine
hey i'm new to vr and recently have been gifted a rift cv1, set it up and was having much fun, then someone else randomly gifted my a vive headset and controllers, but no basestations, does anyone know if it will work with the oculus sensors?
green crypt
it doesn't you need basestations
autumn tangle
gl finding 2.0 ones
green crypt
but the og vive needs 1.0 basestations it doesn't work on 2.0
timid pine
yeah and the person who gave this to me kept thier 1.0 instead of buying a full kit, and since i do plan on buying an index kit with the 2.0 tracking when it is available, i'd rather not buy 1.0 tracking for this thing if possible, i guess unless i can make use of both simultaneously for an index
green crypt
idk just give it back and say it's useless as you don't have the statitions but you appreciete it
sullen linden
vive controllers are quite good still.
haughty thistle
Yeah, SteamVR tracking is backwards on how Oculus tracking is working. So your headset and controllers need to support the base stations and not the other way around
The OG Vive, the gray/black Vive wands and the Vive trackers with the gray logo are the only consumer VR devices to only support the 1.0 lighthouses. all other release SteamVR hardware support the 2.0 base stations. I would not recommend getting 1.0 base stations as they tend to have a little less stable tracking and since HTC is the only manufacturer, they are overpriced at 150€ each (which is the same price as the 2.0 base stations from Valve)
I honestly hate those people who think it's ok to just buy the Index and it's controllers and then sell just their old Vive without the base stations. At that point it's usually cheaper to just get a certified pre-owned Vive from HTC or just getting a Rift S tbh
timid pine
yea my options right now seem to be, find used 1.0's on the cheap, or or maybe a whole other used vive kit, and have two vr setups operating off the two lighthouses
sullen linden
you can operate four max i think with wireless headset adapters
rugged walrus
Do you actually have a use for the second headset?
haughty thistle
You can have a max of one headset per Windows instance and a max of 2 lighthouses for the 1.0 and a max of 4 lighthouses for the 2.0 tracking
sullen linden
yes
timid pine
yeah the more o read up on the lighthouses, i am kinda shocked there isn't some kinda alibaba knockoff lighthouse
sullen linden
i think it is possible to make a completely rfid powered vr system, so that there only the need for the pc power (power over rfid technology)
rugged walrus
Too bad you can't just use any old spinning lights
sullen linden
i like the before pre vive headset alot, even though controller battery life sucked
haughty thistle
The lighthouse technology is patented by Valve and they request a healthy cut off of the lighthouses, which is probably why the HTC products are inflated by at least 40€ on each unit (Index lighthouse 160€, Vive Pro lighthouse 200€; both are 2.0 lighthouses)
sullen linden
yeah that makes sense
haughty thistle
PiMax actually originally intended to ship their customized 1.0 lighthouses (which did look really cool tbh) with their own controllers, but due to constant delays, the don't even have a prototype image on their page anymore. Instead, you just get a pair of Index lighthouses and Index controllers if you order any PiMax headset as a kit on their page
sullen linden
ah reselling the index lighthouse tools
sullen linden
Me and my boyfriend got a Oculus Rift S for Christmas
It arrived a couple of weeks ago and I just want to get it out and play ;u;
We had to get it direct from Oculus because most headsets were sold out everywhere in the UK and Ireland
void grove
I saw that Cyberpilot was on sale, but uh... oof.
glad sand
Yeah I saw that as well, Bethesda reviews have been consistently tanking lol
copper lodge
well since i gave my friends 24hrs if they wanted a free vr game for steam and no one answered me. im giving it here. who ever gets it i hope you enjoy
2NWBX-65PZ0-LF5IF THE TEAR
void grove
@copper lodge thanks!
copper lodge
your welcome! enjoy
@void grove i dont got the space for vr so i hope you enjoy alot
void grove
Yeah, I'll probably check it out later next week.
surreal tide
Is there ANY way to stop the rift s from locking games to 40fps?
I get that it's part of the whole async warp thing but it's really annoying
green crypt
what specs are you running the rift s on?
sullen linden
you are going to need to do some digging around on the internet about that (google it basically on how to sisable the feature you dont like)
surreal tide
1050ti and ryzen 3 1200 overclocked to 3.8 ghz
I know it can handle the games because they ran fine on my old wmr
green crypt
hmm then you realy need to search the net as that is weird
surreal tide
Alright
hexed notch
???
He doesn't meet min spec...
In fact that makes perfect sense as he is at about half of min spec
Remember min spec for ovr/rift is waaay higher than min wmr
haughty thistle
I Jollys case, the 40fps make total sense, but sometimes Oculus punishes you for playing a game, that is available on the Oculus Store, on Steam. I have a 1080Ti and a 8700K, but when I had to use a Rift S I borrowed, VRchat would only run at 40fps locked, whereas it runs a comfortable 80fps 90% of the time on my Index (the Index seems to have some sort of VRR so Brainwarp isn't really required)
sullen linden
the oculus dosent like you running a game through steamvr is the tldr
gleaming grove
@hexed notch He literary meets the minimum specs
sweet crag
Should I get original rift or rift s
sullen linden
if its worth it to you and if you have the hardware needed @autumn tangle
