virtual-reality

[jade bane]

It's insane

[hallow cliff]

foveated rendering

[jade bane]

What is this

[hallow cliff]

eye tracking to lower resolution of things you arent looking at

[haughty thistle]

To that I say: No! Tho it's still a 150$ purchase: https://international-store.varjo.com/accessories?show=vr-adapter

[jade bane]

Haven't games been doing that type of thing for ages lol

[hallow cliff]

thats crazy

[jade bane]

Render a low res version of something out of view or in the distance

[hallow cliff]

yeah its just using eye tracking instead of the players camera

[haughty thistle]

Not just ET. Sony has been cheating by basically running all games on 60fps ASW all the time...

[hallow cliff]

Level of Detail lowers res or even gets rid of textures of things far away

[hallow cliff]

asw?

[haughty thistle]

The cool thing about foveated rendering is, if it's done well you never see it yourself, but a spectator seeing the image on a TV totally can. Really, you have to experience it to believe it. I certainly speak from experience as I've had some hands-on experience with that Tech using the Varjo Aero 👀

[hallow cliff]

thats dope

no wonder you know so much about the aero

[haughty thistle]

Asynchronous space warp. Basically motion smoothing. The game renderes half the refreshrate of real frames and the other half is interpolated based on motion vectors from the game, as well as sensor data from the headset

[hallow cliff]

oh so 60i frames

well 120 i frames?

wait no interpolation not interlaced

[haughty thistle]

I think LTT made a video on ASW a while back. The tech was originally developed for VR, but some clever developers figured, well why not try to implement it for flat games too?
The whole point of ASW is less to interpolated missing frames, but more to improve responsiveness. Tho it certainly can be (and has been) used to improve visual quality too...

[rustic garnet]

Isn't the index cable fiber optic?

[hallow cliff]

nah

[haughty thistle]

Funnily enough it isn't. I also always thought it was optical in nature, but then I found some images of some bloke who ripped apart his broken cable, and turns out, there's just a bunch of super thin copper wires soldered to a board that looks like a signal amplifier on one end and on the other is the connector that plugs into the breakout cable...

[hallow cliff]

wow you need a signal amp over just that distance? thats crazy

wonder how the bigscreen is gonna handle that

[haughty thistle]

I know for a fact the 5m VL cable from the Varjo is fibre optical, as I actually found a listing from their ODM that says it's optical 😎

[hallow cliff]

do you own an aero or have you just used them

[haughty thistle]

I may have spend the 💶 for one

[rustic garnet]

I cant imagine that would be a great experience considering how reprojected frames look and feel on my rift

[hallow cliff]

thats fair

but yeah as long as asw works and makes vr feel smoother its totally fine if sony cheats

some people get incredibly motion sick in vr

[rustic garnet]

It's important to remember the distinction between ASW and ATW

[haughty thistle]

You'd be surprised how far ASW tech has gotten. Varjo for example has recently released ASW on their headsets, and while it doesn't really give a performance advantage in most cases (if you can only get 60fps, it's probably gonna drop you down to 30fps with ASW on), it's impressively good. Like barely any artifacts at all.
Again, I haven't tried the PSVR2, but from hearing people, it sounds like Sony has done a pretty good job at their ASW algo

[haughty thistle]

And yeah, you're right. LTT made a video on ATW, not ASW...
Found it since btw: https://youtu.be/IvqrlgKuowE

[hallow cliff]

id love to try a varjo aero someday... but with the bigscreen beyond coming out q3 i dont see myself ever purchasing a aero

[rustic garnet]

in fairness it's an easily confused nomenclature

[haughty thistle]

ATW reprojects the last rendered frame in 3D space based on how your head position has moved since the last frame, while ASW tries to warp the last frame to essentially "guess" what the next frame may have looked like

[hallow cliff]

isnt atw what the quest does

[jade bane]

The aero is so good but that cost is ridiculous lol

Its not justified at all

[rustic garnet]

Spacewarp modifies the image while Timewarp moves the image

Essentially

[haughty thistle]

Oh absolutely. I'm eagerly awaiting reviews of the beyond. If I didn't already had the Varjo, I would've probably pre-ordered. As it stands rn I have all the time in the world to wait for reviews to come out xD

[hallow cliff]

aero still runs off the index kit right? knuckles and basestations?

[rustic garnet]

All headsets have some manner of reprojection i think

[jade bane]

It doesn't come with any stations or controllers but ye it runs off steam vr

[rustic garnet]

to make up for any motion the ~10 milliseconds since the frame started rendering and presentation time

[haughty thistle]

Totally agree. The image is crazy sharp, and the lack of glare at all is almost surreal at first, but for the price it's kinda lackluster in other areas. Unless you have a use case for that crazy high resolution, I'd personally say look elsewhere...

[hallow cliff]

honestly i wouldnt pre order even if i had the money right now. pre ordering gives companies so much leniency to deliver a sub par product

[jade bane]

If the reverb was like 1200 bucks then it'd make since... but especially since the reverb and index are old now, it should be closer to the 1200-1300 dollar range imo

[haughty thistle]

Yup. Lighthouse tracked with two Watchmen dongles builtin. The only thing that's missing is the bluetooth for lighthouse control, but I recommend to do that manually anyways...

[rustic garnet]

I still haven't really experienced anything sharper than my CV1

💀💀

[jade bane]

I've only ever seen vive and og psvr

Gonna get a g2 in a week or two

[hallow cliff]

watchmen dongles?

[rustic garnet]

Ooo

[jade bane]

Excited to see how she looks

[rustic garnet]

Yeah i feel like mine oughta fail some time soon

Or not

[jade bane]

Cv1 is a dope headset tho, it feels premium

[haughty thistle]

The dongles you need to connect Lighthouse tracked controllers and stuff to your PC wirelessly

[rustic garnet]

It's been a champ for so many years ATP

[jade bane]

Just lacking specs nowadays

[hallow cliff]

gotcha

[haughty thistle]

True true

[rustic garnet]

Eh i still think in many ways it's a very competent headset

[jade bane]

Kinda what i was saying it's just the res/screen door effect is shite lol

[haughty thistle]

Eh. Keep in mind that Varjo is still essentially a startup, and one from Europe as well. So they have to pay Europe wages, in a sector that is normally dominated by (comparatively) low wage regions like the US or Asia...

[jade bane]

Like it's got alot of good features but where it counts you know it's from 2016

[rustic garnet]

The controllers are functionally exactly the same as q2, the audio is better than q2 but not up there with the index, the refresh rate is still pretty standard, the fov doesn't really bother me, oled blacks are great

Only the resolution/sde really bother me but in the heat of the moment it's immersive enough to forget

[hallow cliff]

oh yeah @jade bane you are the one getting a g2 right

i think it also has index audio which is amazing

[jade bane]

Is there any headsets that are revealed in the low-midrange area coming out this year?? It feels like vr hasn't changed since 2020 lol

[hallow cliff]

quest 3

[jade bane]

Yep reverb has the exact same speakers as index

[haughty thistle]

I'd argue that the CV1 controllers are better then the Quest ones. They feel higher quality and are better balanced. You can tell that Meta just took the CV1 molds and moved the ring up top with no consideration on how that affects the balance...

[jade bane]

Yeah fuck that

[hallow cliff]

lmao

but pancake lenses

[jade bane]

What is the psvr fov

Psvr1*

96 degrees lol

[rustic garnet]

One thing is though that your fingers collide with the ring if you open your hand

[haughty thistle]

I'd argue that Meta has kinda destroyed the low-mid range VR market with the Quest. They've successfully pulled a Microsoft IE from the 90s or a Google Chrome in the early 2010s...

[jade bane]

I felt like the lenses were more than big enough at 96 degrees so I don't care about higher fov

[hallow cliff]

quest 2 sold more units than xbox series lmao

[rustic garnet]

Yeah and i could be fine with that if they didn't force you to use a compressed usb display stream

[jade bane]

and g2 with the v2 spacer removed is like 105-110 degrees? I'm happy with that ngl

[haughty thistle]

*unconfirmed
Meta never releases sales numbers. Never have been.

[rustic garnet]

IT ALREADY HAS USB C!!!¡ just put dp alt in there

[hallow cliff]

damn

[jade bane]

Should

Wonder how much sales quest 2 has

Over 20m you reckon?

[hallow cliff]

i think both companies said they sold 20m units tho and i would believe that more people are going to buy a quest 2 than a xbox

[jade bane]

This makes me sad

Since the series X is fuckin rad lol

[haughty thistle]

It might have to do with complexities in implementing that with the XR2. Outside of the Pico Neo 3 Link, not a single standalone headset has featured direct DP connection. Either it's complexities, or companies use that as an excuse to hopefully push people more onto standalone...

[hallow cliff]

i mean series x is just outclassed at this point

[jade bane]

Eh not really

It's got sea of thieves

[hallow cliff]

ps5 is better, and everything you can do on xbox you can do on pc

[jade bane]

Instantly makes it better than visual novel God of War ragnorok

I'm angry at Playstation

They haven't made a new Wipeout since 2012

[hallow cliff]

playstation made 2 vr headsets while xbox said vr was a fad

[rustic garnet]

Ok fair enough but

No fuck that that's not fair put in a daughterboard with a display controller or heaven forbid use the data lanes as usb 3.whatever 40 gigabits and send the whole image

[jade bane]

Tbf xbox's view on that ain't horrible lol

[haughty thistle]

Console kiddies. Always fighting over what's the best smh...
PC can do it all. Game, make your CV, browse the web, emulate old (and new 😉) consoles, play really old games from the 90s, scientific computation, renders, etc...

[jade bane]

It's weird to expect 100s of millions of people to be sitting in their living room screaming at people in vr chat

[hallow cliff]

i dont think vr is a fad but vr is definitely nieche rn

although psvr2 i think is really good for the vr gaming market

[rustic garnet]

I don't think it is

[jade bane]

Vr chat is a concept I'll never understand

[rustic garnet]

Not any more than gaming

[hallow cliff]

gaming has become mainstream

[jade bane]

Na vr can't really be compared to regular pc gaming lol

[hallow cliff]

vr is the new gaming

[rustic garnet]

Like let's be fr what professional purpose does vr actually have

[jade bane]

Engineering

[rustic garnet]

How

[hallow cliff]

3d modeling

[jade bane]

And other industries I don't know about lol

[jade bane]

Bruh

[rustic garnet]

which is even more niche than gaming

[jade bane]

Save money on making mockups

[hallow cliff]

guess what needs to happen for modern games to be made

[jade bane]

Vr models rather than big ass clay models

[haughty thistle]

I still think that unless you can market something, it's not gonna catch on with the masses. And VR really is one of those things you have to have experienced, and you have to have something you personally would like to do that actually works in VR. Some people like RTS or strategy games. Well, those work best with a mouse and keyboard.

[rustic garnet]

(im studying product design engineering right this instant) (the physical model is important for the actual tactile sensation of it)

[jade bane]

VR is so hard to market because in order to set it up you need to adjust a shit ton

Ipd adjustment is already 'an annoyance' for mainstream use lol

Quest 3 gotta have auto ipd adjustment

[hallow cliff]

quest 3 isnt going to sell shit

[rustic garnet]

And you'll make them out of piece o shit materials like plywood and foam so the cost isn't really

An issue

[jade bane]

True

[haughty thistle]

You can't market VR, and not every game or use case works better in VR. The tl;dr is, VR is a nieche, and while that nieche might grow in the future, it's always gonna be a thing some people enjoy and others don't, like say those conventiones some people really like. I hate em.

[rustic garnet]

The industrial designers salary otoh

[hallow cliff]

i think give it 10 years and AR is going to become the next iphone

[jade bane]

AR is stupid imo but that's just me

It will always be jank lol

[rustic garnet]

yeah i don't buy it

10 years?

[haughty thistle]

Can already tell that's not gonna work. Auto-IPD relies on eye tracking to see if your eyes are aligned properly. Put glasses in between and all of the sudden your IPD measures 3mm short...

[jade bane]

Yikes lol

[rustic garnet]

Literally nothing has changed since 2013 wrt how we use our twch

[hallow cliff]

i just think of ar as a HUD. if eye tracking and better computing are put into ar headsets i think its on track to replace phones with smart glasses

[jade bane]

My brain hurts trying to understand this msg

[rustic garnet]

Ten years is too short of a time frame for any kind of large scale revolutionary tech innovation like that to take hold

[jade bane]

What's the point of that tho. It's not like it's got uses for say driving

[hallow cliff]

well meta is working on a 2027 AR headset release

[jade bane]

It will still be banned for driving cars for the fact of you still getting distracted from the road lol

[rustic garnet]

Like AR glasses need to become as easy to wear all day as regular vision correcting glasses before that could happen

[haughty thistle]

Outside of some hands-free applications in certain jobs, I don't really see any real world useful applications for AR. It's all just a bunch of gimmicks (like that Minecraft Hololens demo M$ showed of years ago)

[hallow cliff]

sure it does. could display your route, maybe your speed, and other things a phone normally would

[jade bane]

Nah uses in that sense sure but it wouldn't be legal

Think about it

[rustic garnet]

but bro !!! You can play video games where the zombie is in your living room!!!

[jade bane]

It's still a distraction from your view of the road

[hallow cliff]

yeah they would probably want it banned for driving

[haughty thistle]

No. AR is instead a heaven for Advertising. Push ads into peoples faces more effectively, do target ads IRL, and best of all: the user can't just look away!

[rustic garnet]

the car already has a speedometer 💀💀💀

[jade bane]

Lmao ong

[hallow cliff]

or have it have an auto driving mode with minimized distractions

[haughty thistle]

Reason AR is being pushed so much by companies to consumers is because they see the dollar signs. Nothing else.

[jade bane]

'New limited time big mac deal!' barrels into the back of a car

[hallow cliff]

i dont see ar working with something like that. very anti consumer and no one would buy one

[rustic garnet]

Pssh

[jade bane]

If they could somehow make it detect when you are driving and only show the ar overlay when your parked then that'd work but it can't really do that

[rustic garnet]

Yeah right have you seen the modern internet

[hallow cliff]

my phone does that now.

[haughty thistle]

I'm just being realistic dude. You can see how well marketing something to people has worked out (see all the Quest 2s just laying around unused)

[jade bane]

In what way

[hallow cliff]

i think the gps can calculate how fast im going

[jade bane]

It doesn't do anything like that for me in the passenger seat, and it's not like it'd know if I'm the driver

[haughty thistle]

Not really that accurate tho 💀

[jade bane]

Can't make a plug in your car for ar headsets so it can 'tell the car your the driver' bcus then the idea of having one on at all times is null, would need to remove battery

[hallow cliff]

or fsd will be progressed enough to be mainstream

but that's hopeful at best

[jade bane]

Bruh my cats got the whole couch to herself lmao

[hallow cliff]

this is the one that loves my index cable

[jade bane]

That cat got some wacky fur lmao

Prolly soft af

[hallow cliff]

very

he is a domestic maine coon

[jade bane]

My cat don't like being pet without constantly being on the move lmao

[rustic garnet]

Does anyone know if the index has the same headphone mount as the rift cv1

[hallow cliff]

i can take a picture of mine if that helps

[rustic garnet]

I guess i can measure my rift and someone with an index can check the same measurements

They look pretty similar

[rustic garnet]

Yeah but if you unscrew it

[hallow cliff]

hmm

[jade bane]

Why would you want to do that is my question

[hallow cliff]

upgrade

[jade bane]

Get index speakers on cv1?

[hallow cliff]

that would be dope

[jade bane]

True

[rustic garnet]

Because they're supposed to be good speakers obviously

[jade bane]

I've not heard them but ye apparently they are Hella good

Wonder if they compare to my headset

[rustic garnet]

Like they're actual speaker drivers aren't they not just headphone ones

[hallow cliff]

sometimes my index sounds better than my phillips shp 9500s

[jade bane]

my headset doesnt have great directional audio but man does music sound so feckin good out of them

[rustic garnet]

Actually maybe the amp in the rift would have trouble driving them

[jade bane]

doesnt og rift already have nice audio?

[rustic garnet]

Well yes

But could be a fun thing tl tinker with

And i like the off-ear concept

[hallow cliff]

these have been my favorite pc headphones for like 5 years. only downside is it has weak bass, but makes up for it by being incredibly clear

[jade bane]

bro im malding someone is selling a Reverb G2 for 300 CAD but its the V1

which is a problem since well i've got an AMD CPU

[rustic garnet]

Isn't that an issue with the usb controller

Can't you just get a PCIe addin card

[jade bane]

Have absolutely no clue

i just know the v2 cable apparently fixes the issue

might be worth to go new anyways and have warranty, maybe buy extended warranty too

so if a cable dies i've got a replacement atleast

[rustic garnet]

https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/rze971/amd_system_compatibility_reverb_g2/
https://www.reddit.com/r/HPReverb/comments/vj8b1o/are_reverb_g2_amd_issues_still_a_problem/

mixed opinions

Or not opinions i guess experiences or something

[rustic garnet]

"even a powered usb card is a good solution"

The next sentence

[jade bane]

yes but like, im confused why that fixes anything

[jade bane]

isnt the control box on the cable the important bit

[rustic garnet]

Idk does it matter?

[jade bane]

i think thats what makes it shit with amd support

[rustic garnet]

If it works why bother thinking about it

[jade bane]

yeah but its hit or miss, don't want to risk it not working lol

[rustic garnet]

Usb is a fickle mistress

It's a 20 year old interface with more and more things stapled on to it over four generations

[jade bane]

why do pretty much every headset use fresnel lenses when aspherical are literally cheaper am i wrong

and they just better lol

[haughty thistle]

A USB hub in between your AMD Mobo and the USB cable from the G2 also fixes the issue. Really, the AMD problems with the G2 were blown way out of proportion. It's not like with Pimax where the headset straight up refuses to work on some systems completely. No matter what you do

[haughty thistle]

Also, to answer this question: no, they're not the same
The closest to the CV1 speaker mount I've found on another headset is the one from the Reverb G2, but the screw is reversed from the CV1 (where the G2 has its screw hole on the speaker and the screw on the headband, the CV1 has the thread on the headband and the screw post on the speaker)

The G2 and CV1 have the same holespacing otherwise. The Index has its holes closer together (talking about the distance of the pogo pins to the screw hole)

[burnt oasis]

no it's more pricey and heavier

[haughty thistle]

Aspheric lenses have tons of downsides. Designing one is significantly more time consuming, as you have to define a full 3D curve, whereas with a fresnel lens you can work more in individual steps (adjusting one ring doesn't affect other parts of the lens as much), also making a mold of a fresnel lens is easier afaik. And last but not least: less material = lower weight.
These are just difference when looking at the lenses in a vacuum. Developing a good distortion profile for aspheric lenses is borderline impossible, as the way the lens distorts the image heavily depends on from where you're looking at the lens from. Varjoe certainly has bee struggling hard with their lenses to get a decent distortion profile working, and even that has still quite a lot of color fringing...

Tl;Dr: fresnel lenses are actually a lot better for VR in a lot of aspects. 5he only benefit aspherics give you is no glare at all. But that's at the cost of distortions, higher development and production costs, and FOV.
Because here's another thing with aspheric lenses: they're like CRTs. The larger you want to make the surface, the thicker the lens gets, and at some point the thickness means you have to place your eyes so far away from the lens edges that instead of gaining FOV, you're loosing it (despite a larger surface area)

[burnt oasis]

what about pancake lenses?

[haughty thistle]

Pancakes are mostly to reduce the distance needed between screen and lens by folding the light path. As a tradeoff you loose a lot of light because of coatings and such to make those lenses work at all, but you also get tons of internal reflections. It's inherent to that lens type.
Pancake lenses are usually aspheric lenses, but because of how they fold the light path, it makes them actu6angle agnostic from what I understand (very similar to fresnel lenses in that regards)

So really there's no perfect lens. You get to choose between cheap and glary, dim and glary or distorted mess

[burnt oasis]

what would you say is the best overall lens? ive heard of liquid crystal and some others but forgot their names, but excluding fresnel lens which would be the best balance? assuming the panel is OLED or micro OLED, or mini LED.

no LCD as thats pretty mid, not garbage just meh

fresnel in my opinion is pretty terrible tho, no one wants to be constantly adjusting their headset

[haughty thistle]

I'd say either pancake with really bright panels and really good coatings (not the garbo that Pico is using), or Aspheric with a dynamic distortion profile that adjusts the pre-distortion based on where the users eyes are in relation to the lens...

[jade bane]

Is the cosmos elite any good?

I've found one for 550 CAD with box and everything included, so I could get that or the reverb g2 for the same price

[haughty thistle]

The regular Cosmos or Cosmos Elite?

The regular one has really sucky tracking. Like if you think that WMR is bad, you haven't experienced the Cosmos. The room needs to be essentially studio-lit (so really bright), the controllers keep flying all over the place, etc...

The Elite uses lighthouse tracking. But if you can get a G2 for the same price, just go with the G2. It's a much better headset overall anyways...

[jade bane]

The Elite yeah

So it's got base stations

[haughty thistle]

Yes. But like I said, even at that price, the G2 is still the better deal imo

[jade bane]

Gotcha

What about vive pro with box and stations for 450 CAD?

It's got the 2.0 stations with it, and considering valve sells 1 of them for 200 cad I don't think that's awful at all

[haughty thistle]

That yeah. The Pro 1 has OLED screens, pretty decent lenses and probably one of the most comfy straps I've tried to date. And I've tried a lot of headsets

[jade bane]

Would you recommend the vive pro over the g2 even if they were the same price?

[haughty thistle]

Just keep in mind that an audio headset with a Type.C headphone jack adapter is pretty much mandetory with the Pro 1. It's built in headphones and mic kinda suck

[jade bane]

Ahh gotcha

I've got a modmic and a nice Panasonic headset so as long as it will actually go over the head strap I'll be OK

[haughty thistle]

Depends on your use case. If you do a lot of simming then the G2 might still be better (because of it's higher resolution), but for general VR I'd tend more towards the Pro 1 + a decent headset + Index Controllers. Given ofc they're similarly priced

[jade bane]

Well my main hobby is sim racing and that's why I'm so enticed but I enjoy beat Saber as well as standard vr alot too

So it's not like I'll be exclusively using it for simming

[haughty thistle]

Yeah you should. Reason I mentioned the Type-C adapter is because all the Pro has is a single USB-C port next to the main tether for expansion

That lonely USB-C port is still more then what the G2 has to offer in terms of expansion (which is nothing to be exact). Tho the G2 does have a really good audio solution on board anyways, so it's not that big of a deal...

[jade bane]

Ye

Hmm you think even if the vive pro headset portion is worse than the g2 it'd be worth to invest into steam vr?

So I can get knuckles controllers down the road if I wanted etc

[haughty thistle]

If that's something you wanna do down the line anyways, then yeah. With the G2 if you want to use Index controllers you'd need not just lighthouses and the controllers, but also watchmen dongles. If you go that route it might also be advisable to get an additional tracker to mount to the headset in order to utilise continuous calibration

[jade bane]

Yeah that's the thing, g2 is a better headset but I have no upgrade path. If I want a new headset ima need to dump in a boat ton of money to buy an all new one

While with steamvr it's kinda modular in a way

[haughty thistle]

All I can do is explain the options to you. The decision is yours to make

[warm stirrup]

Does the Vive pro use 2.0 trackers?

[haughty thistle]

Yes. The only Lighthouse devices to require 1.0 base stations were the OG Vive, the black Vive Wands and the large Vive Trackers with the gray logo. All other lighthouse devices can track using either 1.0 or 2.0 lighthouses

[warm stirrup]

I'm probably going to get the Vive Pro then. I have one issue though, when having the base stations wall mounted, will I have to drill more holes into my wall to mount a newer generation base station (like whenever 3.0s come out or something) or could I use the same mounts as before and just replace the base station?

[hallow cliff]

you could just use the same mounts but i doubt theres gonna be new base stations

the mount is like standard camera mounting screw

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, as Badger said. The Lighthouses just use standard camera mounting screws, so if/when there are a new generation of lighthouse, you could just replace the lighthouses and continue to use the mounts you first put up

[pale orbit]

https://youtu.be/aBHNQ_0mEC4

[hallow cliff]

no fucking way

[haughty thistle]

*as a virtual theatre headset

[hallow cliff]

yeah saw that

somewhat disappointing but still good news for vr mod creators like iVRy

[haughty thistle]

He probably should've added. In order to use it as a VR headset, a lot more work would need to be done. But yes, it has already been confirmed that the headset is using VirtualLink over USB-C to connect to the PC. It has to be VirtualLink btw. Just a regular USB-C port with USB 3 and DP won't work. VL is a bit different

From what I understand only the Nvidia 20-Series had native VL support, while the USB-C ports on the AMD cards are just USB-C ports with DP Alt mode? But as I mentioned before, Varjo is selling two different VL boxes. One that takes in full size DP, USB 3 and power and another that takes in USB-C with USB 3 data and DP-Alt mode

Funnily enough the one that takes in USB-C is cheaper then the one that takes in full size ports...

[hallow cliff]

i think amazon also has some

[haughty thistle]

I couldn't find one by just searching for Virtual Link adapter...
Remember, it has to be Virtual Link compatible, as it packs the signals different to how DP-Alt mode packs the video signal into the USB-C connector. And the only adapter I'm aware of is this model from BizLink, which is the one being resold by Varjo and XTAL: https://www.bizlinktech.com/products/detail/1332/VirtualLink™+Interface+Adapter

I also tried to search for BizLink adapter on the off-chance that might pop something up, but nope

[hallow cliff]

damn

[warm stirrup]

You said vl support is integrated into the 20 series rtx gpus, what about the 30 series?

[hallow cliff]

nope

2070s vs 3080ti

[leaden ruin]

my gpu it's 4 ports are also full

3 monitors and the headset

i ain't replugging that headset each time

[devout trail]

Lol just like i said many times. Itll be on PC in no time. USB4 can handle everything virtualink has and more. Give it more time and no stupid adapter will be needed. A USB4 port that is hardwired to a dGPU meets all virtualink requirements and room for more. I knew it could be done over a usb c connector no problem....

[rustic garnet]

I hate the direction Facebook is taking the industry https://youtu.be/aj6UWDMRX54

Remember when every game had community server browsers and encouraged custom content

[gloomy crater]

VR is being killed by corporations before it even has a chance of getting off the ground 😔 if they gave it twenty years of natural development and THEN tried to start monetizing stuff and doing stuff for business purposes, then maybe it would have worked out better, but they're currently treating VR like an already developed landscape that they can just treat exactly like the internet or smart phones, as though it's been around for just as long. They don't realize they have to actually cultivate the landscape before they can start squeezing money out of it. They're impatient. They want their 'investment' into VR to make massive returns immediately, instead of making an actually good product that will reward them in the long run. They're limiting the potential of VR without even realizing it.

[haughty thistle]

USB 4 defines using DP-Alt mode tho, which packs the DP signal different to how VL does. Just because a USB-C port has DP doesn't mean it's VL compatible unfortunately...

[devout trail]

No it doesn’t dude holy shit you need to go read how the usb4 spec is handling things. It’s a mandatory usb C port. It’s mandatory PD. Usb4 support ALL USB C alternate modes. VL was a proposed alternate mode that the ONLY difference to similar alt modes was the fact that VL removes the usb 2.0 pairs (4 wires) and brings them to the high speed usb 3 lanes. VL is nothing but a software fix at this point as every feature it was proposed to be used for has been rolled into the usb4 spec itself and surpassed. Bud you contradict yourself when you say a C port can’t handle the bandwidth and power but the headset uses a fucking C port lol. Lol the port doesn’t ONLY do DP ALT mode.

Only issue is how vendors implement the setup. As I said would require the port to be hardwired to the dGPU in a system so that the DP lanes aren’t coming from your nice Intel iGPU

[haughty thistle]

Uhh... No? Lemme find the post from the iVRy developer again

[devout trail]

Screw the ivry developer and go read the spec on USB4

[devout trail]

Read the regular USB4 specification where it shows support for ALL ALT MODES

[haughty thistle]

USB4 is basically Thunderbolt 3

[devout trail]

Lol no…..

And this ivry developer doesn’t understand all of USB spec either. Pretty stupid when he was the one who said it’s going to take lots of work….and yet it didn’t.

[devout trail]

Yes it’s using VirtualLink alt mode. But that alt mode is supported in USB4 as port of the mandatory USB C port that conforms to the V1.3 standard of the usb C connector.

So a properly wired usb4 port with DP from a gaming GPU, will run a PSVR2 like I said to begin with. But yes you go ahead and follow he guy who said nope can’t be done……oh wait it’s done. HA!

[pure stag]

I'm currently planning a project to make a (kind of) universal ar attachment for glasses but I'm having trouble finding reasonable prices for the ar display. I was wondering if anyone could help

[pale orbit]

https://twitter.com/iVRy_VR/status/1635988243194826757

iVRy (@iVRy_VR)

PSVR2 "VR" mode

Likes

118

Twitter · Mar 15, 2023, 12:56 PM

[haughty thistle]

Interesting that it doesn't make use of the Stereo Mode. I would assume that normally you'd want this active to have the each of the eyes clearly seperated, in case any image compression comes along (like say DSC) that you don't end up with any color bleed between the left and right eye...

[pale orbit]

https://imgur.com/gallery/APQNcys

[rustic garnet]

What are those blue rectangles on your desk?

[pale orbit]

not my desk, mfd buttons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-function_display

[rustic garnet]

also can you stop being at each other's throats and just wait for someone to test it

[hallow cliff]

sick dcs setup

what vr headset is that

[pale orbit]

not sure, just saw this on imgur

[hallow cliff]

ah

i want to say its either the g2 or a rift

that game is intense to run tho

my friend needed a 3090ti and a 5800x3d to run that game at stable fps

and he was gpu bottlenecked

[pale orbit]

yea the g2 is one of the most popular sim headsets

[rustic garnet]

I think it's a g2 judging by the lens shape

That little corner above the nose

[haughty thistle]

Not just the lens shape. The casing around the lenses too. I think the assumption of this being a Reverb G2 should be correct

[split warren]

How-come the Pico 4 hasn't been featured on ShortCircuit or LTT? I would think it would be a good product for reviewal. I assume it's down to availability within NA or something?

[tawdry dove]

They don't really care for vr

Unless it's major

Like, the pico 4 is cool but it's not a big improvement like the quest 2 or psvr2

[split warren]

I'd say that's fair enough. Unfortunate that you're probably right, but I'd personally like to see it featured

[weak bluff]

Pico does not sponsor plus does not target North America so if Linus ever review outside sponsor it must caught interest not just himself but for content as well

[jade bane]

How do these lenses look? found a decent deal for og vive for 250 CAD

think ima take this path, and if i enjoy it down the road then i'll upgrade

fortunately with steamvr its modular so i can buy the knuckles controllers, headset at a diff time lol

[rustic garnet]

The knuckles are still sick but the index hmd is getting kind of dated by now so I'd wait untill the index 2 or whatever they'll call it gets at least announced before upgrading the headset

[hallow cliff]

unfortunately it looks like the next gen of pcvr also thinks the same thing, and only comes with headset lol

i.e the bigscreen beyond

[gloomy crater]

It's almost like devs saw the knuckles and went 'welp we can't come up with a better concept than that so let's stop trying' and then just went about developing better headsets to pair with the knuckles lol

Even though there are SO MANY improvements that could be made to the knuckles (hall effect sticks and user serviceable batteries to name some) they're still somehow better than most of what the VR space has to offer and nobody seems to want to challenge that placement at all for whatever reason

[hallow cliff]

there is a company making new pcvr controllers actually

Etee VR is making a controller that looks interesting

[gloomy crater]

Huh. Those do look interesting. No actual buttons or sticks / only having touch technology means less points of failure. I think I'll keep an eye on the reviews for those

[jade bane]

Ye that's why I didn't specifically mention the index headset

Knuckles I'm aware Is a must buy at some point so if im really interested by vr then I'll def buy them

If im not too keen on the room scale experience then I'll get a better hmd first, for more clarity (racing games etc)

But ye 250 CAD with deluxe audio strap, all cables/controllers, base stations and box isn't bad

250 cad is approx 180 usd

[split warren]

Honestly I'm surprised how they're still shipping that thing by itself for £459. It's only feature that's better than what is on the market is 144hz. Resolution is lower than everything at that price point, doesn't even have OLED going for it either

[gloomy crater]

The built in audio is good, but it's also on the Reverb G2, and can be easily matched with a pair of dedicated headphones or earbuds ¯_(ツ)_/¯ this is why I tell people not to buy brand new Indexes. Not worth the money in the slightest, even with the warranty

[hallow cliff]

index audio is best in class

but yeah i mean reverb is a decent deal rn and other standard controllers really arent bad

in some cases they are better

[jade bane]

Just figured out there's a gearvr lens mod for the vive, thinka ima do it. Do these lenses look good? It's a 10 dollar 2016 gear vr so dirt cheap

Can get my buddy to 3d print the adapter for the lenses

[rustic garnet]

I never got that mod like doesn't that fuck with the distortion profile and all that?

[jade bane]

Think so but apparently there's software fixes that help mitigate the issue. At most I'd be losing 15-20 CAD so it's worth a shot I'd say

[haughty thistle]

It does... a lot. Basically after swapping the lenses the headset just because a puking hazard, but you can adjust in software. Considering that Varjo is still struggling with their profile tho, I doubt that a community made one can totally fix it either. Like I said before the main problem with aspheric lenses is that their distortion changes drastically based on how the lenses are aligned with your eyes. The sweet spot isn't for blur, it's for sistortions, and that sweet spot is very tiny...

[rustic garnet]

Is that lens aspheric though

[haughty thistle]

Yup. Go lenses are aspheric. They're really cheap off the shelf lenses too. Essentially just basic small maginfing lenses...

[burnt oasis]

id much rather go distorted than fresnel

[jade bane]

Bad fresnel* (aka og vive lol)

[burnt oasis]

any fresnel is bad

[jade bane]

Don't think that's entirely true lol

Isn't there pros/cons. Fairly certain high end fresnel has helped remove alot of God rays/mura/make sweet spot wider

Aka it's not remotely as bad as it has been in the past

[gloomy crater]

I've now begun experiencing something weird in boneworks lol. Even though my sticks don't drift anymore, I've begun having this thing happen where I'll push my stick to move, and the game just won't move me for several seconds until it suddenly realizes I'm pressing my movement stick and decides to start moving me. This most often leads to me being stuck in place for a few seconds every time I try to move at all, but what's weird is I'll open the controller test screen and then close the steam menu, wait until the bug happens, then open the menu again (without taking my finger off the stick) to see that the diagnostic screen reads my stick position perfectly fine every time. So while the controller test app realizes where my stick is at all times, the game appears not to. Very strange.

[warm stirrup]

Does it happen in any other game?

[gloomy crater]

I originally encountered it in boneworks so I thought it was an issue specific to that game, but after testing it in bonelab and half life alyx, yeah it happens in both those games as well

[pale orbit]

https://youtu.be/p6NICofm-cg

OG deus ex being ported to unreal 5 + vr

[weak bluff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nMBmQtE-DA&ab_channel=HTCVIVE

more FBT option

[rustic garnet]

that's sick

they're probably going to be really expensive but still nice for people with rifts or g2s or such

i wonder abt playspace drift though

[hallow cliff]

does it work with base stations

[weak bluff]

It does not need one

[hallow cliff]

but can it use them

[weak bluff]

No

If you want just use vive tracker

[hallow cliff]

true

but these also look much smaller

[weak bluff]

HTC said themself this does not replace tracker 3.0

[weak bluff]

Buy Tundra tracker

[burnt oasis]

sounds like an IMU, is it better?

[weak bluff]

It uses inside out tracking

[burnt oasis]

so better?

[weak bluff]

You have to wait until Q3

In theory

Being inside out tracking already have advantage of space and flexibility but this is also very software dependant

TBA

Accuracy probably slightly worse to worse

Slightly as in barely noticeable

[brave kayak]

Will LMG ever do a XR set stage?

[weak bluff]

Perhaps but Linus is only doing for personal hobby for now

[rustic garnet]

It's probably perfectly accurate enough for fbt

[rustic garnet]

How should we know

[burnt oasis]

fsgreses

[spring sluice]

why are the reviews for the walking dead game so mixed

[jovial blade]

Does anyone here use a VR headset for flight sims? I’m looking for suggestions or reviews of relatively inexpensive VR headsets to use for MSFS20/DCS.

[soft hound]

Cheap VR isn't entirely a thing nowadays, unless you either get a Quest 2, or hit up the used market
You'd be looking at $500+ outside of those
Reverb G2 is probably the next cheapest new headset after the Quest 2
It's also good for flight sims, due to the resolution, and you don't need to worry about the controllers (which aren't amazing), as you'll be flying with something else

[jovial blade]

Thanks!

[hallow cliff]

a lot of people say the quest pro is the ultimate flight sim headset, but most pcvr headsets also work very well

my friend just bought a rift cv1 for sims

he mainly plays DCS as well

[jovial blade]

Thank you all for the input, I really appreciate it.

[harsh niche]

g2 is the best for any kind of sim because of the high resolution

it lets you read the gauges a lot better

and you can get the g2 for like $300 which is cheaper than the quest 2 now

@jovial blade

[mint ravine]

Should I just buy a new Q2 or upgrade to index, I already have the base stations but idk if it's worth doing

(And I have 3 trackers as well already)

Or wait for Q3

[soft hound]

If you're playing nothing but PCVR, the Index is miles better in basically every category

[mint ravine]

Which is exactly what I do

I solely do pcvr

[soft hound]

Plus less CPU overhead, which is nice for VRChat

[mint ravine]

Ye

Alright

[crisp marsh]

Basically yes in the budged area

[crisp marsh]

But tracking is meh

[crisp marsh]

Wait I recommend to wait

[crisp marsh]

Well q3 and other headsets in a similar price range will come out later the year can’t say more

But might be worth waiting

More pcvr high end devices too but not sure if that would be worth the money for you

[haughty thistle]

Not really. Most of the times (like 95% the time) you have your hands in the view of the cameras anways. And I personally at least couldn't tell a difference between the G2 Tracking quality and Quest Tracking quality in Beat Saber. In-fact for that game I found the G2 Tracking slightly better because in PCVR there wasn't any jello-effect from any latency compensation like there is on the Quest...
The only big problems I see with the G2 controllers is their kinda large tracking ring (which could interfere with certain in-game actions) and the lack of touch sensitivity on all of the buttons (making Gestures in games like VRChat a real pain to do)

[crisp marsh]

Interesting I had massive problems with tracking in games like Pavlov onward

Surv1v3 was okay

For sims it is amazing

But considering the price drops it is still a good choice

[crisp marsh]

May I ask which revision you own

[haughty thistle]

G2V1

@crisp marsh

Tho I was also comparing it to the Quest 1. By the time the Quest 2 became available where I live you'd be kinda stupid to buy one (post price-increase and with the Quest 3 already on the horizon)

[crisp marsh]

Okay compared to the quest 1 it is okay

Compared to q2 pn3l p4 it is meh

[haughty thistle]

I've had the Pico 4 as well. I actually found it to be slightly worse then the Quest 1. Then came a software update and made playing Beat Saber basically impossible

While it was decently responsive out of the box and decent in tracking quality, after an update it became mega jello-y...

[crisp marsh]

Streaming assistant or virtual desktop?

[haughty thistle]

VD

The Pico Streaming assistent is like driving a car with the handbreak on

[crisp marsh]

Now no longer

But for a long time it was well usable but not enjoyable

[haughty thistle]

Mid-jan is actually when I tried the Pico 4

[crisp marsh]

VD bug should be fixed

[haughty thistle]

It wasn't a VD update. It was a pico update and I've had the same tracking issues standalone as well

[crisp marsh]

Hm do you remember which version of the os it was

[haughty thistle]

Nope

[crisp marsh]

Since the os update wasn’t published for everyone at the same time

Update was stopped after issues

So likely you were in the percentage that was affected by it

But yah Pico should handle updates better in the future

[haughty thistle]

When I got the device it was defo running some outdate software and it proptly made me update. It was fine before and after. A day before I returned it (at that point I already decided I wasn't gonna keep it) a software update came out and just made the tracking worse. I found that kinda ironic xD

[crisp marsh]

That is something meta is doing way better

I just hope q3 will have a OLED display

[haughty thistle]

Very unlikely. From what we know so far from leaks, the Quest 3 really sounds like it's going to not change much in terms of the screen from the Quest 2. Most of the higher price will probably go into the new XR2 Gen2 processor and (possibly) pancake lenses like the ones on the Quest Pro...

The Quest 3 is probably going to retain the stupid 3 step IPD adjustment and single screen approach...

[crisp marsh]

Yah well maybe the next Pico or another headset from a different publisher will have one

Or psvr2 will get pc support in the near future (1 year or so)

[haughty thistle]

I mean... there's the bigscreen beyond with Micro OLED panels...

[crisp marsh]

Well other headsets too but I mean one for below 1k

Best case below 700€

[blissful aurora]

Does any of you have experience of headset randomly shutting off and not showing any signd of life even when plugged in

I had it occur on quest 1
2 units at once

Please reply, It's urgent

[crisp marsh]

2 units at the same time?

[blissful aurora]

About same time

[crisp marsh]

Well different headset for me, question was it stored in an warm environment 50 degrees C+?

For a longer Periode of time

[blissful aurora]

It's winter and they were on table spread out

About 20 units

None of the failed ones were warm

[crisp marsh]

Okay so they don’t turn on and the battery indicator doesn’t show anything too?

[blissful aurora]

Nah

Screens and led are blank

Doesnt react at all

[crisp marsh]

Okay try different charger and cable

And plug them in for 8 hours

[blissful aurora]

I tried 2 different docks

Already done

[crisp marsh]

Sometimes they need longer

[blissful aurora]

For 2 times

[crisp marsh]

Hm

[blissful aurora]

I swear one was full before it happened

[crisp marsh]

Which headsets again ?

[blissful aurora]

Quest 1

Units 2 and 23

[crisp marsh]

Hm never had really issues with batteries of the quest 1

[blissful aurora]

They just failed all of a sudden

[crisp marsh]

https://www.meta.com/help/quest/articles/fix-a-problem/troubleshoot-headsets-and-accessories/problems-charging-quest-2/

You probably have to contact meta support

[haughty thistle]

Were the headsets in a very cold environment? It's not often discussed but freezing temps (below 0°C) can be even worse for batteries then just regular charging heat (~50°C)...

[blissful aurora]

Normal room temperature

Around 20 degrees

number 2 was in a box and number 23 on table 15m away

There were 9 other units and all worked fine

[haughty thistle]

I have a hard time believing that a headset worked just fine normally one day and then the next is completely dead. Were they on a charger all the time, kept being used till 0% then fully recharged? How were they charged, using a fast or a slow charger?

[blissful aurora]

They were plugged in since yesterday evening using oculus stock chargers

We were doing software based maintenance on them, swapping out accounts and adding licences

[blissful aurora]

How fast do they reply

Project deadline is today 16:30

About 3.5 hours

[crisp marsh]

Uh maybe question is will it be solved so fast

[blissful aurora]

Probably not

I will just remove the 2 headsets from project

[crisp marsh]

What is the project About ?

[blissful aurora]

Ever heard of futuclass

Project is called classvr+ and it is about using vr devices to teach topics like chemistry, physics, etc

[crisp marsh]

Oh interesting

Was only able to do that in a smaller scale

[blissful aurora]

We have around 20 units or so

Working

Now we have less

[crisp marsh]

Bought by who?

Since having dead headsets is well not so good and replacing them is somewhat expensive

[blissful aurora]

The school

Don't think we are gonna buy new quest 1

[crisp marsh]

Well school should be insured so insurance case normally

[blissful aurora]

They don't make the q1 anymore

[light hazel]

yes they do

https://www.meta.com/gb/quest/products/quest-2/

[grizzled field]

I'm thinking about getting a VR headset do I go for the Quest 2, or should I wait for the Quest 3 to come out?

or do I get the Pico 4?

[burnt oasis]

quest 3

not sure about pico 4, if its pcvr then ig, otherwise hell no

[grizzled field]

pico 4 is essentially a quest 2, but the company is owned by tik tok instead of meta, its pretty much the exact same specs but its lighter and has more ram

[burnt oasis]

yea but ive heard in multiple reviews it has a worser ui and less games

[haughty thistle]

Yup. All correct. The Pico 4 is a clone of the Quest 2 owned by ByteDance (the parent company of TikTok), but unlike the Quest 2, the Pico 4 has higher res screens, a larger FOV, clear pancake lenses, and a better weight management (as-in they put the battery in the back, where it makes sense). On the flip side, the Pico 4 has kinda garbo speakers with no way of replacing them (plugging a headphone jack adapter in will lead to significant audio-latency, and the device does not have it's own headphone jack; let alone leaves enough space around the ears for headphones anyways), the pancake lenses on the Pico 4 are known for significant image warping (as in everything looks kinda wave-y), the UI is terrible, so is the official PCVR client, and the included pads (both on the front and back) are stiff as a rock. Really uncomfortable out of the box.
I haven't had any experience with the Quest 2, but if it's anything like my Quest 1 experience, it probably beats the Pico 4 in all points that actually count (as the negatives you can either live with, or can work around)

If you want a budget VR headset for standalone gaming, get the Quest 2 or wait for the Quest 3 (if you've waited this long, you should probably wait till the Quest 3 launch btw). If you want a budget VR headset for PCVR, the Reverb G2 may honestly be a better buy, that is, as long as you don't intend on mainly playing VRChat on it. For that the Quest is probably still the better buy

[weak bluff]

https://twitter.com/iVRy_VR/status/1639245840018554880/photo/1

iVRy (@iVRy_VR)

The smoking gun. Some PSVR2s do not have all of the USB2 pins in the connector. This means that the PSVR2 is definitely not VirtualLink. All of the evidence supported it being VirtualLink, but this contradicts. It still needs an adapter for non-VL PCs, but we don't know what kind

Twitter · Mar 24, 2023, 12:40 PM

[buoyant cedar]

so would that mean PSVR2 isn't compatible with PC, it took a while but the PSVR1 was made somewhat compatible with PC. Unfortunately i dont have a GPU in my laptop to test it out (intel integrated with my i5)

[weak bluff]

It only means PSVR2 does not use VirtualLink. PSVR2 does work with PC just not as VR headset instead as display.

despite so VirtualLink is still for now used because it required 12V power

[crisp marsh]

Also p4 has fully adjustable ipd

But yah I would wait

[crisp marsh]

It is

But there are no drivers for it

You can use it as a second monitor

[tidal portal]

also no fresnel lenses which is a nice bonus. having played around with both devices, i would recommend pico over quest 2.

gotta just use virtual desktop for pcvr and that brings additional cost, but not that much.

[lime pewter]

other option is giving your soul to an alien

or reptile depending on who you ask

[blissful aurora]

Quest 1*

[devout trail]

@haughty thistle Hmm so doesn’t use virtual link. Has enough connectors to do what it needs over a C port with power and video with some pins even missing. Still think this developers knows everything he’s talking about or actually learning like the rest of us? Still think it’s going to be a long time before the PSVR2 works on PC like he said?

[haughty thistle]

It's just how research/reverse engineering works buddy. Nothing wrong with that. It was safe to assume that the PSVR2 was using VL considering the DP config it needed for engaging the VR mode display. And this discovery also technically means that his first assumption of the PSVR2 using it's own proprietary standard holds true again, no?

He basically just says what his current thoughts on it are as he researches/reverse engineers it. It was safe to assume pre-launch that Sony would lock-down the device to push PS5 sales. When that didn't turn out to be true, he updated his assumptions. There's nothing wrong with that. I never said he's the all-seeing eye that somehow magically knows every detail about the PSVR2 by taking a single look at it...

[devout trail]

Yeah no kidding. I said half this same crap and you just said nope its VL this guy said so.

[haughty thistle]

Past tense brother. Read correctly...

[devout trail]

Lol still incorrect. Past or present.

[crisp marsh]

You can still use it as a oled display with some Amd 7000 6000 and movies 2000 gpus

[devout trail]

Yes sure can, but as I said, it will work over USB4 and certain TB ports. They are figuring out how to put the correct video+data over the C cable but give it time that will be easilly done too with it already connecting up to PCs without initial drivers or extra software.

[crisp marsh]

I believe 1 year is realistic

Also people already try to get it running but so far no progress really

[haughty thistle]

Cinema mode is 3DoF, no? At least to me it would indicate that the HMD isn't doing the tracking internally (like every other PCVR inside-out tracked headset). There are OSS SLAM Tracking systems out there at least, so getting the HMD 6Dof likely not a problem. Dunno about the state of controller tracking tho. My only reference for that is the opensource driver for the Rift CV1 and Rift S, and that one still hasn't gotten even the Rift S into 6DoF mode. So who knows, maybe that's a solved problem, maybe not. Only time will tell...

[devout trail]

Me too! everyones first reaction was it was going to take forever. But I had a guess that it wouldnt be anywhere near as long as it was with the PSVR1. And with how much easier this one is to use I feel like it will be awesome on PC!

[haughty thistle]

Well, Cinema mode is working, no?

[crisp marsh]

Yea but I mean as a VR headset with head tracking

So it can be used it steam VR

I just want it for Elite Dangerous

I don’t need Controller Tracking

[devout trail]

Well yeah but we definitely want to use the controllers too! No way someone sets this up and doesnt get the controllers working too.

[haughty thistle]

Wouldn't for E:D also be 3DoF enough?

[crisp marsh]

Yah but head tracking would be enough for the beginning

And head tracking is realistic to work in the near future

[crisp marsh]

Yes

[devout trail]

True, Feels like we are pretty close to that with it being able to be plugged into the PC and already showing up as a screen. We atleast have our foot in the door!

[crisp marsh]

Exactly it is just a question of time

[devout trail]

Feels like its running just like a quest over link. The quest unit itself takes care of tracking/position using its onbaord CPU and that data is sent over the USB3 connection back to the PS5/PC? Seems the same with the PSVR2 having the onboard chip handle the tracking and data sent back to the system over the USB lanes.

[haughty thistle]

The Quest is a standalone headset tho. It'd certainly be a first to see a headset that does it's camera based tracking internally rather then on the machine rendering. Again, the Cinema mode is 3dof, hinting that the 6dof isn't done internally. I'm not an almighty, so I can only state what I think is the case based on the information we have right now.
And even if the headset is just sending it's camera data over to the PC, like I already mentioned SLAM algos do exist that are open source, so I would assume that at least the HMD tracking should be easy enough to do...

[devout trail]

Yeah i mean the headset in link mode. Where as the PC is doing the work and positioning and the end work is done on the quest and sent back to the PC. I get this one is different since you can connect the controllers without plugging in the headset so somethings split between the two. Or is it possible that it could be doing more than just the camera data? Oculus started doing that extra crap where it "guesses" your positions based on your movement and velocity of the controllers. I wonder if something like that is being done here and the combined output or something we dont yet see because of the driver limitations still.

I mean if the console/PC is doing the work with the tracking and the controllers then what is the mediatek chip inside the headset doing? It cant be just for the display. That would make me think theres some extra work being done underneath that onboard chip that would enable the 6dof and connect as a VR display and not a cinema screen.

But also makes it kinda goofy because the controllers track with the cameras on the HMD but yet can connect to the system without the headset.

[haughty thistle]

(didn't meant to send this yet)

[crisp marsh]

[haughty thistle]

"guesses" your positions based on your movement and velocity of the controllers
Pretty much all headsets to that to some degree. It's latency compensation as there's a few ms of time between the frame starting to render and it being displayed on screen. So in order to not make you sick, they infer at the very least your head position where it could be by the time the frame is done rendering using 1000Hz+ IMU tracking, while the actual room tracking using cameras/base station is done is larger intervals (30 or 60 Hz depending on the system; camera-based inside-out often runs at 25 or 50Hz in Europe tho). When the frame is done rendering the system then might wiggle the image a bit more in 3D space based on the IMU data it collected during the render. This whole system is called Asynchronous time warp and I believe LTT even made a video on it using a demo implementing that system for desktop games.
My guess as to what the Mediatek chip is doing inside the headset would be for the Eye Tracking. Either that or it's sole purpose is to offer it's IMU for the afforementioned ATW. One thing is for sure, that chip is definetly responsible for the Virtual Cinema environment you see when the headset is plugged into a PC right now...

[haughty thistle]

Surprise, surprise: It's the exact same way WMR handles things. The cameras are on the headset, but most WMR headsets don't have any bluetooth inside them, so the controllers connect to the PC. Considering that with WMR the tracking is done on the PC, it doesn't really matter through which end the controllers send their IMU data, as long as it all comes together on the same PC. Tho, the Reverb G2 (and I believe also the Samsung Odyssey+, but don't quote me on that) have built-in bluetooth modules who's only purpose is for the controllers to connect to. Tracking still happens on the PC tho...

Oh yeah, regarding that Virtual Cinema on the PSVR2, I'm not sure what it does when plugged into a PS5 and you're playing flat games. I know for a fact that the PSVR1 showed this virtual cinema when playing normal PS4 games, and it had this big ol' clunky box that would handle the cinema mode, but in VR mode would accept an h.264 video stream to send to the TV. It basically had it's own little computer box that would plug in between the TV and the PS4...

[devout trail]

Yeah thats what I was thinking, that chip has to be why its in cinema mode without any drivers or what actually puts the image onto the HMD correctly. If the console did all the work/tracking then that chip wouldn't be needed. Kinda figured basically the same as the box from the PSVR1.

[devout trail]

Yeah I would assume the PC to be doing the work for those because of how many different model HMDs there are and the different specs between them. But with a PSVR2 being a closed ecosystem they only had to develop for one model and can do more than what would be a limitation from another? Like one having bluetooth to connect directly to the headset versus directly to a PC. But that also contradicts itself since the PSVR2 controllers can plug in without the headset connected. But still has to be some tracking done on the PSVR2 HMD directly since the controllers are tracked by the cameras.

[lime pewter]

PCVR hardware is slowly getting to where I want it to be...
only thing right now is the battery life still isn't enough on controllers, trackers, etc

[devout trail]

Idk, I feel like we could use more actual immersion with games. I remember checking out a vest that had spots on it that would vibrate as you took hits or damage in a game. It was a cool concept.

Theres also a goofy heater/cooler that blows hot or cold air on you depending on the game environment

They were all stupid expensive and didnt have enough actual support in games. but the ideas seemed very cool in concept

[lime pewter]

for me that is unnecessary to be honest, most of what I would use VR for isn't even gaming
but productivity and similar

[devout trail]

What do you mainly do?

Just need a VR that has awesome all day battery life? lol

That def would be welcome by all lol

[lime pewter]

currently do it on a TV instead, lel

tiny ass monitors useless

still would be nice to have an entire environment and 16 hour+ battery life for when needed

[devout trail]

Oh snap, I mean could even atleast try it on your phone or pick up a cheap secondhand OG rift or quest to get your foot in the door

[lime pewter]

for the most part its just one of those things where "the larger the area you can use, the better"
and doesn't get much larger than VR which is literally your entire room if you wanted to

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, I dunno if we get there any time soon. Displays are really power hungry and not even most phones can get 10+ hours of screen on time on a single charge...

[lime pewter]

the headset itself is fine wired honestly

mostly just trackers and controllers

[haughty thistle]

Oh! you meant controller battery life. Pretty sure the CV1 controllers easily did 20+ hours...

[lime pewter]

then there is trackers sadly...

[haughty thistle]

I haven't measured but Vive Trackers with TS+ still not enough for you?

[lime pewter]

18 hours is my max hours straight use of PC, would have to last through it all when necessary

[haughty thistle]

Sorry, meant Tundras ^^"

[lime pewter]

could probably find something that works

currently just waiting for all the Q3/Q4 stuff and see what happens with that

honestly wonder about the beyond...
if that could be used as a portable display

much easier than bringing along some 32 inch in a bag or smth

[haughty thistle]

Considering the company making it is basically the go-to virtual cinema app on PC, I would assume that at the very least down the line they'd offer a comupte module for the beyond to act as a 3dof virtual cinema for any device with a display output...

[devout trail]

Hmm I wonder about the new trackers vive has coming. Havent looked into them much but heard theyre supposed to be the bigger badder version. Maybe those finally hit the battery time needed? Idk what vive controller battery life is like though.

[lime pewter]

even if I honestly think the beyond should've been a bit bigger
they could've squeezed out so much more going for like 80gram more while still being very light

[haughty thistle]

HTC already stated the new Trackers won't be a replacement for the Tracker 3.0s. They didn't state a reason, but I could imagine that they might not be as accurate, have a lower battery life or something else that might be a deal breaker for those who could easily use the lighthouse based trackers...

[lime pewter]

would expect them to be like 4-6 hour battery, lel

[devout trail]

Yeah theyre definitely not as accurate. I just didnt know if the battery life would be better or able to be used in whatever way he was wanting them for.

[haughty thistle]

Could also be that they're heavier if the battery life is similar (because doing SLAM tracking takes a f#ck ton of compute (compared to other FBT/controller tracking solutions) to be decent, meaning lots of power draw)

Wasn't it that the Quest Pro controllers were significantly heavier then other Quest controllers while also have a battery life of "only" 6-8 hours?

[lime pewter]

To be fair
my use for everything is always so weird and jank

literally everything

here I am replacing sunlight with artificial light because I can't control sunlight and weather to have a consistent sleep schedule, recreating sunrise with artificial lighting instead (even if it was a pain to set up)
more control and systems for things is always nice, VR is the only real reasonable upgrade over just using a TV once the battery life lasts as long as I may use it...
I don't have the money for custom made TV panels for entire walls
not even close, wouldn't work too well anyway

[devout trail]

Think that was the case. Some really pissed about it being "only" that but others saying because of the advanced tracking on it now thats actually great!

[lime pewter]

me looking at the battery life: that would barely last me the morning

likely fine for average user tho, I don't own an oled TV just because I would kill it within a month with my 12-18 hours a day

[devout trail]

so use a non oled tv?

[lime pewter]

using a QN90B

still a bit limiting in terms of usable area tho, which is my main reason for wanting to get the stuff needed to move some things into VR instead (other than just wanting to play every so often without breaking my back from sitting in a chair/on a couch) would start to get issues anyway going for larger TVs instead, because well
they take up quite a bit of space

[devout trail]

well i guess just buy a couple extra batteries to charge the controllers and trackers for VR and you can get rid of the tv for whatever reason you just stated that I still cant even comprehend.....

or a projector so you can have your TV across the entire wall?

[lime pewter]

colors are a bit too ass, especially with lights turned on

[lime pewter]

basically just extreme multitasking, if I had to simplify it by a lot

which is why usable area matters most, ofc can't move everything into VR tho
the software to do so isn't really there yet

[devout trail]

I mean theres only so much your 2 hands can be doing with a pair of VR controllers. What could it possibly be that you multitask so much of that either multiple monitors or a 90 inch tv cant already be handling? that just sounds like you are asking something impractical by any means of use.

Or a current gen VR setup with some extra batteries?

[lime pewter]

I mean

my use has always been weird, it just works nicer for me

[devout trail]

Yeah theres weird and jank and then theres just straight up impractical lol

[lime pewter]

works best for me at least

¯_(ツ)_/¯

if we had to measure it with "total time taken until all is finished" ofc

[devout trail]

lol yeah I guess. Idk i dont find a controllers battery life a make or break factor in getting into VR at all to be a plausible reason NOT to lol.

Theres plenty of other factors that you can do to improve that. Extra batteries? Charging docks? lots of options!

[lime pewter]

you could easily say I am a bit of an extremist with how far I would go for efficiency, even if it is impractical in 99% of cases

me here drinking olive oil because constantly having to eat 5-10 meals a day to reach your calories is annoying

[devout trail]

lol ok now thats just looking for attention....you enjoy your day bud 🙂

[lime pewter]

No, but ok

you too ig
(also, charging docks are basically useless when you can't continue while they're charging, all it does is slow you down for hours)
I've tried looking into is how many options there are for just strapping portable batteries to the stuff and still have them working properly
haven't seen too much about if they turn themselves off when plugged in tho...

@haughty thistle actually, do you know if they turn themselves off when plugged in for charging?, if not I could probably find a way somehow

often with these kinda things they turn off certain features or the entire thing
either because of heat or just because

[rustic garnet]

Aren't those two pins just the usb 2.0 data pair and mirrored on the other row anyway

Yeah it's normal

[lime pewter]

lel

[hallow cliff]

yeah but i think VL needs all of the usb lanes

[lime pewter]

is virtuallink even a thing anymore

[devout trail]

Yes, VL uses the USB2 lanes and changes them to strictly USB3 data. Thats why VL is so unique compared to the other modes as it takes what is normally left as USB2 and changes them where as other modes leave the USB2 pins alone.

VL has been "basically" superseded by USB4. USB4 combines the USB PD spec, USB C and other alt modes and combines them into one. We just need systems that have full fledged USB4 with full bandwidth, dGPU direct wiring or tunneling, and enough PD to support each headsets requirements.

Since its so new still, Id bet we are still 2-3 years from having motherboards equipped with USB4 chipsets that meet all of those requirements.

[rustic garnet]

yeah and then swapping the batteries takes like three seconds

[rustic garnet]

There is only one usb 2 lane

It hooks the pair of pins they use in the usb c pd handshake too iirc

[devout trail]

Yes but its 2 pairs so 4 total wires

[rustic garnet]

No

B6/7 is a mirror of A6/7

So you can reverse the cable on stupid (so to speak) usb 2 devices

The female plug has all four of them anyway

Trust me they're not needed

[devout trail]

And with the initial assumption of it being VirtualLink the pin setup for virtualink isnt symmetrical so it would require BOTH female and male ends to have all 24 pins present.

[haughty thistle]

Normally when using USB 3 device to my knowledge they only use the power pins of the USB 2 connectors, while VL does specify the use of both USB 3 and USB 2 data simultaniously. At least that's what the VL mode on the BizLink VL-compatible cable specifies...

[devout trail]

Sorry not NOT symmetrial I meant that it needs those 4 pins for USB3 data.

[devout trail]

Yeah the spec even says its uses all 4 of those. So that does leave some wonder as to how the pin layout truly is. Definitely gets exciting to see it getting figured out more and more every day!

[blissful aurora]

let me know how crappy and horrible this setup is

[rustic garnet]

Me when im wrong on the inter net

[blissful aurora]

can be relatable

[lime pewter]

clean it up a little, and it would be fine

[rustic garnet]

im too confident for my own good

[blissful aurora]

yeah sure. in 2 months

[lime pewter]

mostly talking about

[rustic garnet]

But okay so whatever it's just virtuallink but with usb 2 instead or something

Or dp alt with usb pd

Like if we can get a display out does it really matter what exact protocol it uses

[blissful aurora]

About what? This?

[lime pewter]

mostly just trackers being low battery life anyway

[devout trail]

Well yeah we want it to display in its correct VR mode, not in just a boxed display! Otherwise why even bother?

[lime pewter]

the bunch of stuff you don't use just laying around the room, yes

[blissful aurora]

well, I use it occasionally

don't expect me to not use it just because it's old

I should definitely do something about the boxes...

[rustic garnet]

Mhmm which means you'll have to write to the display like a vr display? Simple enough isn't it? Or like the way i understood it windows just treats it like an external panel?

[devout trail]

Yeah i think thats the main issue still, getting past just the letterbox display and getting it to full resolution on both eyes in stereoscopic mode.

[rustic garnet]

? send a stereo image

[devout trail]

Once they get more info on how its sending or interpreting the video signal they can hopefully get a driver that with the correct port should be able to drive it at native resolution in its correct mode.

[rustic garnet]

that's how they do it

Ohh if it doesn't drive native res that's an issue

[devout trail]

Yeah dont you think if it was that easy they would have done that before since most headsets work the same way....

It doesnt show up as a VR image. A PC thinks its just a regular PC display and doesnt know its a stereo image or in what format to send it so that the PSVR2 can display it correctly

Thats the protocol "part" we are still figuring out.

[rustic garnet]

I mean i figured getting any kind of sensor data was the real challenge

[haughty thistle]

It actually does with how the DP lanes are packed. VL-Alt packs the DP lanes different to DP-Alt. Afaik with the PSVR2 the Cinema mode works with both, but afaik the VR mode is using the way that VL is packing the DP signal...

[lime pewter]

Mine:

[haughty thistle]

Other then that, yeah, VL is just a standard for USB 3 + USB PD + DP. But yeah, like I said, VL has it's own alt-mode for the DP signal...

[rustic garnet]

what is cinema mode 😶

[devout trail]

the box that looks like a screen at the movie theater?

[haughty thistle]

Basically the headset displays a 1080p screen in a virtual cinema. 3dof only. The PSVR1 had it and the PSVR2 also does it.

[rustic garnet]

Is this a feature of the ps5

or what is it how it displays native pc input

Because THAT would be an issue

[haughty thistle]

I'm not sure the PS5 does it. It's certainly the way the PSVR (both the 1 & 2 headsets) behaves when plugged into any video source that is not enabling VR mode on the headset

[rustic garnet]

OOOH

so it internally reprojects the video input?

THAT'S A HUGE PROBLEM

sorries i wasn't in the loop

[blissful aurora]

Damn. I don't have money even for tv, rather a good spec pc and a sofa

[haughty thistle]

The PSVR1 had a box with an ARM SOC inside that handles the virtual cinema when a flat image is being received and handles the TV output when in VR mode. The PSVR2 also as a Mediatek ARM SOC inside to handle that virtual cinema.
Again, it does that when it's not switched into VR mode through USB.

[rustic garnet]

Oh my god

Okay

[lime pewter]

I bought it all across multiple years to be fair, PC is still ryzen 3000 and 2080S
upgrading end of may

[rustic garnet]

Idk i figured it just treated the panels like a raw hdmi output 💀💀

that's crazy though good luck lmao who was it that said a year untill they crack an open source driver for this was reasonable??

[lime pewter]

wonder how bad it would be if it actually displayed it like that

[devout trail]

lol I did, id say within a year, maybe 2 max we will have it cracked and slaying on PCVR games too!

[lime pewter]

feel like it would be too close, so you kinda need it that way I would guess

[rustic garnet]

If you tried to play 2d games it'd be horrible yeah

But it would be so much easier to implement a vr driver

[rustic garnet]

half the image going to each eye and it's locked to your face's rotation

[haughty thistle]

I dunno man. Whether or not a driver is feasible within a timespan the hardware is relevant in all depends on how difficult it is to communicate with the hardware. Heck, for all we know Sony could've done some weird shenanigans with the USB protocol to make it extra hard to talk to the hardware...

[crisp marsh]

But we get a video signal already

[devout trail]

The onboard chip still runs on the ARM arch. Once sniffers are applied all will be revealed!

[crisp marsh]

They could have added a chip to only communicate with ps5 consoles

[haughty thistle]

Cinema mode only tho. From what I know the guy only snooped the EDID the headset exposed when plugged into a PS5...

[lime pewter]

if I were them, I would've just been like "they will find a way to do it very early on anyway, might as well just not spend extra time trying to lock them out of using it the way they want to"

[crisp marsh]

Well because it isn’t detected by drivers correctly

[rustic garnet]

It's not even a matter of actively locking pc users out

[devout trail]

Yeah once we get sniffer boards on those ports to see what the actual data and protocols are we can get past that limitation easily.

[crisp marsh]

Had that with monitors in the past too

[rustic garnet]

They just didn't build support in

[haughty thistle]

No. The headset actually genuinely doesn't expose the VR-mode EDID to the graphics card when VR-mode isn't engaged afaik

[lime pewter]

am I the only one who hopes standalone VR and non PCVR compatible devices just die?

[haughty thistle]

Yup

[devout trail]

Yes because thats just stupid.

[rustic garnet]

i don't particularly want them dead but i wish they didn't completely neglect pcvr users

[haughty thistle]

The Quest is a poison pill. It brings tons of people to VR, but it doesn't actually help VR to go forward...

[rustic garnet]

I really hate how they rely on compression over usb

[lime pewter]

tho with standalone VR I am mostly just talking about ecosystems with standalone VR...
please no

[crisp marsh]

Wired VR is so much better for simulators where you won’t low latencies and good visuals

[rustic garnet]

Yeah

[lime pewter]

if there is one thing I want VR to keep, is the modularity of it all

[crisp marsh]

Like elite dangerous wireless is okay but wired still way better

[lime pewter]

get the controllers you like the best, get the headset you like the best, etc
not like "I am apple, you can only use these god tier controllers with our MacOS only headset" which will likely happen

[devout trail]

My wife plays her quest 2 for probably 20-30 hours a week. But she doesnt touch a single game that requires a PC. I on the other hand play just about ONLY PCVR games so the ecosystem definitely fits both. But I would still use something different than a quest 2 it was just the practical thing to do so that the kids can play on it too versus using my index.

[rustic garnet]

vr rendering is complex enough as it is we don't need wireless transfers back and forth to complicate it even further

What's the prediction latency on a quest 2 over wifi?

It's gotta be like

6 frames

[crisp marsh]

It isn’t so bad on p4 but you see major image quality degradations

[rustic garnet]

Yeah and that's the problem

[lime pewter]

while wireless would be nice for VR, I don't live in the middle of no where
and don't want to deal with the interference...
already have enough issues with wireless audio

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, the Pico 4 is a noticable step down from the Reverb G2 in terms of image quality. Not just because of the $hit-tier lenses and screens they used. No, also in terms of image detail, even using VD, it feels like I'm running the headset like 60-70% render res, despite having set VD to max quality and 150% render res in SteamVR...

[rustic garnet]

Wireless isn't feasible unless you use a dedicated transmitter

Wigig kinda like

[crisp marsh]

AV1 and higher bandwidth could solve a lot of issues

[burnt oasis]

any idea if you have a great clarity headset, can you have your monitors look better in your headset compared to the monitor itself?

like in a varjo aero, if you have a 720p monitor would it look more like 1440p in the headset still or would it look like 720p

[lime pewter]

personally, there are few things I would use wirelessly...
Mouse and keyboard is absolutely fine, but its also not that much data compared to like 4-8k displays

[rustic garnet]

The fact is that you need to match the render frequency with the headset vsync and with a wireless connection that's unpredictable

[crisp marsh]

You mean have a better image in a VR headset than on a monitor?

[burnt oasis]

yea when using a multi monitor setup for productivity

[rustic garnet]

With colors and such i guess

[devout trail]

No because the screen inside your VR headset is "emulated" and never set on a stationary axis where the pixels stay true to their actual resolution. As you turn or twist your head the "fake" monitors are being manipulated.

[rustic garnet]

But not resolution

[burnt oasis]

damn

[rustic garnet]

An OLED headset will probably look better than a cheap LCD monitor

[burnt oasis]

is it possible to emulate fake monitors in the future?

[haughty thistle]

Doubt it. Any good quality monitor currently beats any high-res VR headset on the market rn in terms of image quality. Like colors, contrast etc. Reason being that VR headsets need to be low persistance and that kinda defeats image quality.
Not to mention that the highest res LCDs currently in use for VR (the ones in the Aero and also in the upcoming Pimax Crystal) have really poor contrast...

Like we're talking 300:1

[rustic garnet]

You /can/ have virtual monitors right now

But they're not very practical

[burnt oasis]

thinking about the bigscreen beyond

[rustic garnet]

I think it's still worse for ppd

[burnt oasis]

5120x 2560 micro oled

[rustic garnet]

Over like half your field of view yeah

[lime pewter]

for a headset, I would personally not want anything that can't do true black

[rustic garnet]

A monitor takes like a quarter

[crisp marsh]

Yes but the aero is not as good

[haughty thistle]

Maybe for replacing a 720p monitor? At max a 1080p one. Would you rather have a 1440p 240Hz monitor or a 1080p 90Hz virtual one?

[burnt oasis]

i wonder if reviews will put the bigscreen above the aero

[devout trail]

Yeah you can add virtual screens so you have more to work with. Just not to basically magically turn your 720p image into a good looking 1440p or something like that.

[crisp marsh]

I would say varjo VR 3

But that one is very expensive 4,5k I believe

[burnt oasis]

7k

[crisp marsh]

That is the xr 3

[burnt oasis]

ah

personally i want a headset like that

[crisp marsh]

Which has more optical sensors

[burnt oasis]

but some gripes

[haughty thistle]

Certainly still interested in the Beyond, but I wanna wait for reviews of retail units to come out before I decide whether or not I get one...

[rustic garnet]

i mean that one is just "we have this sick industrial headset but these enthusiasts really want a taste of our tech and who am i to stop them from throwing money at us"

[crisp marsh]

Fov of it seems to be small ish

[burnt oasis]

if it doesnt have good on ear headphones like the index then i want it to be able to fit your own headphones

[lime pewter]

I would want the beyond specifically for its portability

last year I had to bring a 65 inch with me in a car just to continue...

not again please

[rustic garnet]

Lmao why

[lime pewter]

had to leave home for a few days, but wasn't done yet
so I had to take a 65 inch TV and a giant PC with me in a car...

[burnt oasis]

sounds like they underpromised, heard its about quest 2 fov

which i mean isnt too bad since the lens are closer to your eyes

[crisp marsh]

Which is for me to small

Especially for the price of it

[rustic garnet]

Done with what

[burnt oasis]

it is, but maybe its amazing lens and contrast makes up for it

if its something i can wear all day im chillin

i prefer moving around more in vr games

[lime pewter]

something I was busy with for a few weeks at the time
and need the screen area..
I am never going back to using tiny monitors..

[burnt oasis]

without my headset shifting and causing discomfort

if not them, then pimax crystal

ill probably just buy and test both of them, if i like pimax that much more ill switch to them

[haughty thistle]

Pimax Crystal I wouldn't get. It has a battery life of 2 hours. With it being plugged into a PC

[lime pewter]

ouch

[burnt oasis]

yea if they cant fix that then im never buying that shit

i dont need a second quest 2

[lime pewter]

I mean, 2 hours?
good headset to buy for the family, so your kids can't actually play more than 2 hours

[burnt oasis]

they shouldve just kept it as pcvr bruh

[rustic garnet]

has pimax ever released something worth buying

[burnt oasis]

if you want a standalone make a competitive one

[lime pewter]

hammerhead cosplay

[burnt oasis]

only the 8kx when it was $1200

best headset aside from the varjo

[rustic garnet]

Bro think he Mithrix risk of rain

[burnt oasis]

but now quest pro honestly superior

[haughty thistle]

The weird thing to me is that the Crystal only uses it's battery as a power source. Even when using a DP + USB cable, it still runs down the battery and when that's dead, the HMD turns off. Why they did that is beyond me...

[burnt oasis]

ooh i just remembered my dream last night, i had quest pro controllers with my quest 2 and the tracking was immaculate

[lime pewter]

I don't know what that is, sorry

[lime pewter]

I wouldn't call anything from them "superior"

I would call it "if you're fine with selling your soul to the devil ig"

[rustic garnet]

https://riskofrain2.fandom.com/wiki/Mithrix

[burnt oasis]

i mean id say its better than any headset on the market overall

value wise

[lime pewter]

seems bout right

[burnt oasis]

only loses in audio to the index and g2

and slightly fov

[lime pewter]

imagine using built in audio

[burnt oasis]

q2 needs some on ear headphones

i just put on headphones anyways tho

[lime pewter]

let me use my honestly painful headphones

I really hurt my wallet too often...

[burnt oasis]

any idea if you can use a pocket battery to increase its life?

[lime pewter]

I buy little, but when I do its a sudden "-3000 eur"

[lime pewter]

just strap this to your back

[haughty thistle]

Honestly, I don't think they ever did. I had tried both the 5k Super and the 8k X. Comfort was horrendous, the whole thing felt like a cheap toy, the software had a mind of it's own (not working half of the time), lenses were a glary mess, even with just a single fresnel lens, the FOV was nauseating...
Yeah, and that's all without mentioning the fact they wanted to deduct over 200$ from my refund (when I had sent it back within their 14 day "no questions asked" return window), and that apparently they file fraudulent refund claims on Amazon when you return a headset from them there...

[haughty thistle]

It uses a propriatary battery in the back of the strap which cannot be charged while in use. So every 2 hours you'd have to take off the headset and swap the battery...

[tidal portal]

so it has no charge function wired in at all? quest 2 i had used to slowly lose charge while wired in because it was draining faster than charging

[lime pewter]

the only two headsets I am currently keeping an eye on is the stuff from varjo and the beyond

haven't really seen anything else yet worth keeping up on

[rustic garnet]

Couldn't you solder up some kind of power cable to slot into the battery compartment

[haughty thistle]

From what I understand no. It's kinda like the Focus 3 in that regards, except the Focus 3 actually runs off the USB power for the most part when plugged in, reducing the rate of discharge on the battery. Afaik the Pimax Crystal does not even do that...

[tidal portal]

That's wild

[burnt oasis]

bruh a $1600 headset with a deadlocked 2 hour battery life

[haughty thistle]

Yeah, but that would also void your warrenty. They honestly should've just... you know... use a wall socket when wired to a PC...

[lime pewter]

what is the max weight a headset should be in your opinion honestly?

[burnt oasis]

could you replace the propriatary battery with a third party one that has much more juice?

[burnt oasis]

maybe apple headset if they allow pcvr

[lime pewter]

feel like it won't

[burnt oasis]

since apple always comes out with solid stuff the past couple of years

[lime pewter]

it is apple after all

best case is they lock half the features whenever not connected to their devices

just barely enough to have it working on PC

[burnt oasis]

tru, but theyre new in this space and unless they make a god tier productivity headset they will be fucked

[haughty thistle]

Not any heavier then a Kilo. The Aero with it's strap already weighs like 750g, and with the facial tracker attached (like I have) I think it's around 900g. Wouldn't really go any heavier as I already notice sever neck strain towards the end of long sessions, and you can really feel it weighing you down. The weight also makes whipping your head around kinda difficult...

[rustic garnet]

I think apple will put an m2 chip in their headset

[haughty thistle]

The lighter a headset is, the better imo

[burnt oasis]

yea and it cant game, can only do productivity

[rustic garnet]

Because nobody builds games for it yeah?

[burnt oasis]

but if the headset is comfortable enough and has enough clarity

then it may make vr more mainstream

[lime pewter]

still think the beyond took it a bit too far tho, would've preferred seeing a slightly wider headset and about 250-300 grams instead

[burnt oasis]

if its able to do what people do for work already that much better and effective

[burnt oasis]

issue is you cant make micro oled that big

and its already pushing 1.6x 4k pixels

[haughty thistle]

The beyond wasn't really designed to be the end-all-be-all headset tho, was it? I think their target was the best experience they could make for sitting or laying down, enjoying a movie in VR. Incidentally they also made a really good overall VR headset as well...

[burnt oasis]

tho tbf idgaf im getting a 4090

[tidal portal]

beyond with their audio strap seems to be the perfect drop in upgrade for index users

excited about it

[haughty thistle]

One thing that I would've liked the beyond to have would be eye tracking, but the lack thereof makes me hesitant about it...

[rustic garnet]

Isn't an index controller like as big as the whole beyond headset lmao

[tidal portal]

index controller is heavier iirc

[burnt oasis]

same tbh, i dont like constantly moving my head to see stuff, but ig well see

[lime pewter]

I mean, it does seem great
but I do think they could've added a bit more weight to add a bit more fov and maybe some features
maybe another time tho

[tidal portal]

gives perspective how smoll it is

[burnt oasis]

maybe in like 2 years theyll make an end all be all headset if they can do larger micro oled displays

[haughty thistle]

FOV wise they were probably limited by the screen size. You can only do so much in terms of FOV if you have a fixed sized screen...

[rustic garnet]

I sure hope not because that means there's nothing more to innovate

[haughty thistle]

Also, the bigger you make a headset, the more difficult it becomes to lay down with it. So that's another reason that speaks for the small size

[lime pewter]

I mean, its quite a bit less wide than a head still, could've made it a bit bigger without issue

[burnt oasis]

well not entirely an end all be all headset, there will always be smaller innovations such as higher hz, lighter weight, better distribution, wireless battery life, etc

and higher res

but the resolution id say were limited to 2x 4k for now as even a 4090 would have trouble without dlss3

is a 4090 usable at 8k 90fps with dlss 3?

[haughty thistle]

That in itself isn't really what eye tracking is for. It's more meant for dynamic foveated rendering as well as for social games for better presence and expressions

[burnt oasis]

yea ik that, but its also nice to have

[rustic garnet]

Dlss 3 i don't think is compatible with at least the current vr rendering paradigm

[burnt oasis]

i wonder why that is

most upscaling stuff doesnt work with vr

is it because it has to render two screens with as little latency as possible?

[rustic garnet]

Dlss3 adds two frames of input latency

[haughty thistle]

Yup. Also, not to mention DLSS3 is essentially just glorified motion smoothing anyways, which most VR compositors already have built-in support for anyways

[haughty thistle]

That as well

[lime pewter]

anyway, the beyond seems very nice for certain uses
just kinda sad when its so close to being god tier for many users but not there yet because its not what they were going for

[rustic garnet]

And input latency in vr is much more sensitive than flatscreen because the 1:1 position correlation

[burnt oasis]

? are you talking about the movement of our limbs and head?

[rustic garnet]

With a mouse and keyboard you control the velocity of your avatars actions

In vr you control position

[burnt oasis]

like going under a table, which you could never do in a flatscreen game?

idk

[rustic garnet]

I mean the whole world will physically warp around you

[burnt oasis]

but why does that make it difficult

one thing ive noticed in vr is that the depth of things feels kinda there, but kinda not

[rustic garnet]

The red line is position wrt time during a linear movement

[haughty thistle]

You're kinda on the right track there. Yes, Latency is a big part of it. The more latency you add, the more it's gonna make you puke. The only reason current VR doesn't make you puke is because latency compensation (ATW = Asynchronous Time Warp). But that can only do so much, and the Quest/Pico really show the limits already, with every motion feeling kinda jello-y.
Another reason is you want to keep the image consistent between both eyes (or else it's gonna make you dizzy, and probably also hurts to look at). AI upscaling has no reference of the other eye. There is DLSS2 for VR, and a handful of games to make use of that tho

[rustic garnet]

The blue is velocity

[burnt oasis]

like in skyrim vr when im on a mountain looking at whiterun which like an acre or two away, or looking below me off the cliff i see some depth but also flatness

[rustic garnet]

If you lag behind on a mouse you still have the same output pretty much but in vr you shift the whole world around

very sickness inducing

[burnt oasis]

so is that why in some things vr has noticeable latency like in combat?

[lime pewter]

wonder if VR would've been further ahead if we humans didn't get sick so easily from VR

[burnt oasis]

honestly ive never gotten sick from vr

even when the quest 2 link cable does the display jitter game

or jumping off a cliff in skyrim and ragdolling

[rustic garnet]

No because that would need our brains to be so much simpler that we probably wouldn't invent fire

[lime pewter]

I already get sick looking at a phone in a train...

[burnt oasis]

or being smacked by a giant

[lime pewter]

but what if its only the get sick from VR part not being a thing

[burnt oasis]

my friend is like that too but was totally fine in vr, maybe because superhot isnt so bad

[rustic garnet]

Getting sick from vr is a byproduct of being able to walk on two legs

you wouldn't believe how biomechanically complex bipedalism is

[lime pewter]

I didn't ask for a biologically/scientifically correct answer

[burnt oasis]

lol

[lime pewter]

just wonder what would happen if that was the only difference

[blissful aurora]

That is true but I need to get a longer cable then. my current cable is shorter than the pickles

[lime pewter]

I would just drill something onto the ceiling, and have the cable go through there

maybe even do curtain rails and have it go through the holes or similar for larger rooms

[blissful aurora]

I could just attatch it to the lamp, I have a hook and rubber band on it

[lime pewter]

too risky for me

[blissful aurora]

mine isn't going anywhere

[lime pewter]

feel like I would pull the lamp out of the ceiling at some point

[blissful aurora]

I have hung lights off of it with bloody power cables

pretty sure it is gonna resist a single link tether

[blissful aurora]

what is your opinion on the kuject design charging link cable btw? I wanted to buy it but i am not sure if it is right choice

[lime pewter]

idk about it, so nothing

[blissful aurora]

they advertise that you can charge while using it with pc link

[subtle fog]

HTC finally shipped my dang headsets. I guess this still qualifies as "Early March 2023"

[fast hound]

I have been trying to get a pico 4 to the us and all I have gotten is problems

[subtle fog]

Ive been very curious about the pico 4. I don't know a whole lot about VR yet but this will be my 3rd headset.

[grizzled field]

Hey I was wondering, how much does it take to power PCVR? I have a Lenovo Yoga, (730 15IWL), not much in the way of power, but I was wondering if it, would do it

[weak bluff]

that laptop probably at best can run 360 videos

you will want a good GPU and in many cases good CPU as well to play games enough to not make you motion sick which different people tolerate differently

if you are into laptop at least get 1060 mobile and that is not talking about latest VR games but it will run minimum

[sour quartz]

Its honestly easiest to by a quest, see how much you like vr, then get a pc that can do vr if you like it that much (so much more cost efficient price to preformance than laptops)

[lime pewter]

if only budget wasn't entirely "sell your soul to the devil" class hardware

[sour quartz]

True

[lime pewter]

ofc a lot of the reason they can make it cheaper is because of that...

[sour quartz]

But i am constantly surprised how much more performance my pc has than my gaming laptop, and for 100 bucks less total

[blissful aurora]

why do some spec sheets say that gtx 1650 is unsupported for vr with quest link when in reality it works without any issues?

[haughty thistle]

Because some GTX1650s genuinely don't work

Have talked with some where they just get stuck at the three dots, or the connection isn't even recognized

If we're talking about VD, that's a different story. VD works on basically anything with a DX11 capable GPU. Whether you'd want it to work on some cards is another topic however...

[blissful aurora]

weird, since in my case it always works without a hitch

[blissful aurora]

we are talking about real hardware

on the kuject link's amazon page it was marked as non supported? is it plainly just gpu that makes it not supported or is there any differences with the cable used? (that would be stupid honestly)

[rustic garnet]

why would virtual desktop not run on real hardware lol

and i think a 1650 is just barley powerful enough to power low end vr games

[blissful aurora]

Nobody except him talked about vd here

[blissful aurora]

low to middle end works fine in my case

something like alyx or boneworks would be probably overkill

[rustic garnet]

nobody but you talked about virual hardware?

[blissful aurora]

no?

[rustic garnet]

what's middle end to you

[blissful aurora]

define low end first, no vr game I have tried has gotten stuck or ran on low performance yet

[rustic garnet]

like

job sim

also most vr engines implement some kind of predictive render quality adjustment so to avoid dropping frames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdL3WC_oBO4

[blissful aurora]

I see...

what would you rank the dcs world at?

[rustic garnet]

idek what that is

[blissful aurora]

this shit