development

[nocturne raptor]

yes, and the result should be 3, 4, 5

[silk eagle]

should be i think

numbers = int(input("Give me your hilarious integer number:")) # Convert input to int to make sure its a number
last_numbers = []
for num in str(numbers)[-3:]: last_numbers.append(num)
print(f'The last three numbers on the list are {last_numbers[0]}, {last_numbers[1]}, and {last_numbers[2]}')

thats how id do it atleast

probably some lambda magic to make that into a one-liner but im inexperienced with lambdas

that will error out if the number isn't 3 digits long though

[slim rune]

Is this a right place to ask for help with Java & TLS?

[obtuse night]

Yes

[supple hull]

Recruiter thirst is at an all time high

Seems like you are doing very well for yourself. You have a list of unique accomplishments, which is why I truly believe based on close examination of your profile and your proven track record, you could raise the bar here at Seagen.
Your work has caught the attention of our key leader, who HIGHLIGHTED your performance, past projects, and career trajectory. We reserve compelling opportunities to work with flagship projects/programs, and high impactful teams from the ground up for handpicked people like YOU. Whether you are looking for a career transition now or in the future, our engagement process is exploratory.
If you're curious, I’d love to connect on how you can be part of our transformative growth and build something new. How about this week?

[wind horizon]

Yeah it's gotten bad, they now direct email or even will try a SMS if they happen to find you email or phone in some database that I'm guessing past places you applied shared it around.

When they do that I just report them as spam, since an unsolicited direct email or SMS is wrong imo. Hit me up on LinkedIn where I'll prob ignore you anyway since I'm not looking. LOL

[supple hull]

That was linked in, I literally have a thing that says I don't check linked in but I decided to log in

It's cringy as now you get click baity titles in recruiter spam like "Hey, have you read about.....?" or something

[wind horizon]

If you find development boring why are you forcing it? The best devs tend to be those interested in the work they do, sure sometimes you have boring tasks and wish you could be doing something more fun. But if even just learning basics is boring I'd suggest you step back and ask why you are considering development or at least what sounds interesting to you.

There are tones of jobs, even inside the tech/IT space outside of development that you may find more interesting if dev just isn't for you. If you work on something you enjoy you will excel and likely go far, but if you force yourself todo something you hate you likely will struggle to push to yourself and prob will hate your job.

[wind horizon]

Yeah LinkedIn is turning into a terrible social media site imo, the timeline is just filled with random or sometimes even fake feel good stories and polls. I keep it as an informal way of connecting with co-workers that I'm not close with, but want to stay follow their career and keep lines open to share future opportunities with each other.

But recruiters have made it so I don't even want to open the site / app anymore. lol

[twilit beacon]

nah, its just some lingos that i dont like

like js

i dont like it, but i like python

[wind horizon]

Are you talking about syntax when you say lingo? For example how JS uses curly braces and Python uses indentation for blocks.

[twilit beacon]

i dont know, i also tried c++ and i liked that one too, but when trying things like html+css+js, i kind of realised that i dont like that

[silk eagle]

as a javascript noob/python main, timers in js are the least intuitive thing ive ever done in my entire life.

[wind horizon]

Haha they are funky, think it just comes with the whole asynchronous/event loop of JS.

[nocturne raptor]

this is what I should've done, it's for absolute beginners.

Now I just need to figure out, how to get the end result, separated by commas

[silk eagle]

i blame my math knowledge being shite, well done

[viscid warren]

anyone good at Java

[silk eagle]

nobody will probably answer without hearing the rest of your query

[viscid warren]

I need some to help me with classes in java

[night flame]

you need to ask your question

[viscid warren]

when I am working with classes is there a way extend more then one class in java

[spring pond]

no

you can implement multiple interfaces but multiple inheritance is not a thing

[viscid warren]

thanks

[nocturne galleon]

Studying about Javascript + Using Node.js all over again is refreshing

[viscid warren]

My Java assignment is hard I am not so good at java and seeing as this first assignment is a hard I wonder how I am going to pass

[hollow basalt]

You would if you try

[viscid warren]

I also fell like online learning is making it a little harder

[topaz flare]

do you try and write come code and see if you get something working?

[topaz flare]

what are you doing with those?

[cloud knot]

RIP https://twitter.com/aevavoom/status/1487917720758734853

Aeva Black (they/them) (@aevavoom)

Having an absolute nerd moment bc a German court has ruled that loading off-site resources - like .js and font files - constitutes a damages-worthy breach of privacy.

Holy shit, y’all.

I mean, yes, I agree … and also this is gonna break ~everything~ if it plays out https://t.co/HTLpPSjh4o

Retweets

573

Likes

1749

Twitter · Jan 30, 2022, 10:36 PM

don't load JS/CSS from CDN in EU i guess

[grizzled steeple]

Ah yes. Germany. You never stop to disappoint me 🙃

[silk eagle]

why do i keep hearing about stupid shit happening in europe

is it because the US ran out of stupid stuff in the headlines

[cloud knot]

to be fair, this is not stupid, this is legal stuff. It is teething issues of data protection laws; in US i think only California comes anywhere near to EU data protection laws.

[midnight wind]

I mean, how is this breach of privacy

[silk eagle]

oh i just read what the tweet links to

its google fonts pretty sure

cuz google does that whole uh, data collection on billions of people thing and sells that data to advertisers

and such

[cloud knot]

yep. It was down to usage of google fonts leaking users IP address to google. yes, there are people who go after this kind of stuff, Max Schrems constantly brings such issues into the courts.

he pretty much killed the EU-US Safe harbor agreement

and the Schrems II case killed the Privacy Shield agreement

[rose pulsar]

https://youtu.be/9U4Ha9HQvMo

[next cipher]

yeah this is monumental if it actually holds up, but also will cause so many headaches lmao

(granted, i agree with OP of the tweet that this is a good thing)

[wind horizon]

I think blocking linking fonts is a tad extreme, esp since you can already block fonts in your browser if your worried about privecy.

[nocturne galleon]

Creating a website, that is also a reaction time test for participants of a researcher, and logs it to a google sheet that the researcher can then number crunch later

i am already successful at handling the GoogleSheetsAPI (which was nice since it was my first time fiddling with it) and being able to append data was godsent, just what we needed

had a bit of trouble with trying to append an array of times + adding the singular data with it (like email, log time, name, etc) , but with clever loops, was able to handle it

[nocturne galleon]

tbh, i just realized, constantly programming will help you get accustomed real fast to that language of yours that you are trying to study and pass

Just finished Java in my College and it would always take me like 2-3 days of constant reading and testing my program before I get the hang of how the code would run in my mind at first

it always gets me when I take even just a 5 day break of programming that stuff

[uneven orbit]

Hey Techies, I have a question that has been stumping me for the past 2 days. I host a gaming server. One of the scripts I am working on is a in game tablet. Now, it uses iframes to display what we need. However, I can not get it to display 2 sites that are most important. One being our gaming website which is through wordpress, the other is our cad which is localhosted php. How can I get them to come up?

[hollow basalt]

How can I get them to come up?
Slowly

[uneven orbit]

Haha thanks... Any legit ideas though? haha

[hollow basalt]

haha very funny

[spring pond]

not sure what you mean by not being able to display two sites, can it only display one?

[wind horizon]

Yeah I'm a bit confused by the question too, would be happy to try and help if you can provide some more info / explanation of what you are trying todo and what the issue is.

[shy helm]

You might need to check https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/X-Frame-Options and https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/Content-Security-Policy

These are security configs that browsers use to decide if they want to render an iframe

[nocturne galleon]

big swing noob here (also just bad at anything GUI related), is there something i'm missing that makes resizing this not work?

fixed it by removing the panel entirely since that class is already a subclass of JPanel, not sure why i had the extra one in the first place

this works

[wind horizon]

I think it's okay to mention someone's comment wasn't very helpful, but I think it'd be good if we try and avoid name calling. 😅

[hollow basalt]

And he's not even the one I'm replying to

[supple hull]

Pro-tip, if you're thinking about switching jobs, start cashing out your PTO.

[hollow basalt]

+1 i had like 25 unused leaves. They converted into cash but I'm now thinking of maybe I should've just took a vacation

[supple hull]

It's too early to know if this opportunity will materialize, I'm at phase 2 of 4. I hate the insane amount of interviews in modern tech but based on my first conversation, I was surprised how much it fit. I have a sabbatical that I was supposed to take but covid hit so I'll lose 1 month of vacation + whatever normal hours I have which looks like 88 so I tossed vacation days up just start winding that down but also not screwing myself if said opportunity doesn't work out.

.... but maybe I haven't been paying attention to wages but the salary is a lot higher than mine to the point I'd be really stupid not to take it cuz I have vacation days + month off saved up.

[supple hull]

My company doesn't cash out I don't think 😦

[wind horizon]

The high demand for tech workers has really been hitting a new level ever since covid, now with inflation as well I think it'll force many to start offering even more.

Sad thing is most companies don't do this for their current employees. It's almost like the tech industry is encouraging us to just keep job hopping, since they reward us fincially for it but they don't reward us for staying put. 😅

Also I can 100% agree tech interview processes suck, how many other jobs have 4 interviews with multiple live challenges that you are graded on.

I dread tech interviews more than the actual job switch. Lol

[supple hull]

Too real, and yes. My company i work for is very small, and as a UX dev as i'm a code monkey but not like ultra coder guy makes me slightly an odd hire for a lot of places as I'm the guy who has to talk designers off of a cliff of wizzbangs, and I can turn pixel to code while operating an art program reasonably well. I'm not a great designer though.

[wind horizon]

Idk sounds like a great fit for start ups and there are plenty of start ups with lots of cash.

People with multiple skills like that can be super valuable when the company is constrained on staff resources.

[viscid warren]

anyone good with Java able to help me with a problem I am having my code is giving me an error but I don't know how to fix it

[topaz flare]

https://dontasktoask.com

[topaz flare]

Best part about them is almost none of the questions reflect what you will actually be doing (usually)

[viscid warren]

I have three diffrent Java class I am trying to get my trying to get my deck class to out put the array but it's giving me an error I am using a system.out.println can anyone help me
https://paste.developerden.net/gadosuqody.typescript this is my card class
https://paste.developerden.net/ygaxocojip.java this is my Cards class
https://paste.developerden.net/oqoxemyhas.java this is my Deck class

[wind horizon]

I hate places that use leetcode / algo questions for a web app dev role. 😆😆😆

[viscid warren]

For anyone looking at my code I solved my problem

[topaz flare]

I do consulting and when I interview candidates I just ask “walk me through the process of reversing a string” and just listen to what data structures and types they name off and that’s it. We are smart and just do 2 interviews and they are more of a conversation rather than an interrogation or hardcore coding session

[wind horizon]

It's amazing how many interviews don't focus on communication skills, that's probably why we can end up with devs that are toxic but somehow got hired by passing technical exams. Lol

[safe wedge]

So I was looking at creating a discord bot that takes the posts from a facebook account and then puts it into a discord channel. However it appears i need to have a business account to use the Groups API. Any way around this?

[fierce arrow]

Im learning JQuery and I hate it

[next cipher]

no offense but.. why

are the kids doing like... Retro Web Development now?

[fierce arrow]

Idk my professor is like 50

and he refuses to let us use HTML dom

[midnight wind]

classes teach old stuff

it sucks

[silk eagle]

usually takes about 10 yrs for schools to catch on

[fierce arrow]

He also makes us use firefox

[next cipher]

true but like.... jquery

firefox is actually good though

the only browser that is not designed and maintained by a company whose entire business model is online tracking & data harvesting

also it used to be slow but currently it's as fast as chrome and uses significantly less memory

[fierce arrow]

What about Brave?

[next cipher]

brave is also reskinned chrome

[silk eagle]

what about vivaldi

[next cipher]

also reskinned chrome :)

[fierce arrow]

But it now has its own search engine

but its still chromium based

[next cipher]

yep, avoiding google search is admirable - but it doesn't escape unilateral control an advertising company has over the web standards since it's still the blink/webkit engine

better than using straight up chrome for sure

[fierce arrow]

do you know what google did in 2009? they blacklisted the entire internet

Its scary how much power they hold

[silk eagle]

i can tell how much power they hold whenever this option in my vpn literally breaks the internet

[next cipher]

yepppp

there are other options like browser extensions that fill the tracking data with junk instead of fully blocking it which might avoid actually breaking things

[fierce arrow]

I remember hearing that on average google has like 3 million pages of information on every user or something

dont quote me on that

[silk eagle]

that feels like a large storage requirement

probably just a bit of data about google services like emails drafted received youtube videos commented on and such, and then just a list of interests to share with advertisers which is based on the sites you visit

[fierce arrow]

I wonder how much storage they can actually accommodate. probably zettabytes

[silk eagle]

so if you watch a car repair tutorial and then go to a site to get parts or something, google will be like "oh lets tell advertisers to show him wrenches" or whatever car repairs use idk bro tire iron

[fierce arrow]

"tire iron"

[nocturne galleon]

Safari and other WebKit browsers is the only real alternative other than Firefox and chromium

[meager cape]

i need help with a regex thing

as far as i know this shouldn't be possible with just regular expressions right?

[wind horizon]

Regex is mind blowing powerful and complicated syntax, I don't even pretend to know everything it can do. I usually go to one of the regex sites that will let your search libraries of ones users have submitted and click to live test it against some data.

[swift yacht]

#include<stdio.h>
int main()
{
int option,option2,pro,proprice;
printf("\t\n**");
printf("\t\nWelcome to ProximityTech Store");
printf("\t\n**");
printf("\nSelect any option:");
printf("\nBuild a Computer [1]:");
printf("\nClaim Warranty for Parts [2]:");
printf("\nContact Us [3]:");
printf("\nAbout Us [4]:");
printf("\nExit [5]:");
scanf("%d",&option);
if(option==1)
{
printf("\nAMD or INTEL:");
printf("\n For INTEL Enter [1], For AMD Enter [2]");
scanf("%d",&option2);
}
if(option2==1)
{
printf("\nSelect An Available Processor: ");
printf("\n1. Intel® Core™ i5-4690K Processor ");
printf("\n2. Intel® Core™ i7-8700K Processor ");
printf("\n3. Intel® Core™ i5-6600K Processor ");
printf("\n4. Intel® Core™ i7-7700 Processor ");
printf("\nEnter your Choice: ");
scanf("%d", pro);
}
if(pro==1)
{
proprice=239;
}
if(pro==2)
{
proprice=239;
}
printf("%d",pro);

}
I'm trying to create some options for like this store,, At the end i'm trying to print the value of the price but it does not print and in an online compiler it give segmentaion error
What i'm doing wrong here,, Can someone if help me out it would really help me out finishing this project :/

[hollow basalt]

so it would help if someone helps?

[swift yacht]

It will, I would be ablee to contine the rest

of the code

[hollow basalt]

looks like a small tweak

[fierce arrow]

Looks like my C homework

[hollow basalt]

classmates?

[fierce arrow]

No

[hollow basalt]

nice

[fierce arrow]

although I am struggling with an assignment rn. Do you know C?

[hollow basalt]

depends on the problem

[fierce arrow]

I already have all the code written out but my math is giving me the wrong answerr

One of them is supposed to end up totalling 135 dollars but it keeps calculating it to 103

[hollow basalt]

yikes

look at your code again

[fierce arrow]

Is it bad if I cant find whats wrong with it 😨

[hollow basalt]

We all start as beginners

My hint is, don't question your calculations

[somber dome]

Hey guys

Do any of you know some recognized python certifications ?

[fierce arrow]

How simple is the error? I am still not getting the same answers as you

[hollow basalt]

read your code line by line, you'll catch it

but my problem is, you did your error so many times

@fierce arrow how beginner are you with c

[fierce arrow]

this is my first assignment with it

like brand new to it

[hollow basalt]

just chat back here if you still can't find it

[fierce arrow]

oh my god

I have discovered the error

[hollow basalt]

your god

[fierce arrow]

it was the cost ==

[fierce arrow]

thank you for saying i made the error multiple times. that made me think

[hollow basalt]

goodluck on your homework

[edgy path]

Anybody here html or css developer

[midnight wind]

yes I know a bit

just ask

[hollow basalt]

you need to send dont ask to ask

[fierce arrow]

@hollow basalt you got me into the groove of things now man

[trail remnant]

Technically, a language with pure regular grammar is not capable of referencing previous characters, so you'd think it would be impossible.
Realistically, most "regex" isn't actually regular. Pearl popularized lookahead and lookbehind, which technically make Pearl regex not a regular expression. That makes solving that problem trivial, although it is computationally far more expensive.
Practically, you can make a regular expression that matches that group by using matching groups and conditionals, which are valid under the restrictive regular grammar. This can also be more computationally expensive, because you'll basically be looking through the string once for each character you want to check.

A pure regex for finding that would look like this: (.*a.*a$)|(.*b.*b$)|(.*c.*c$)|(.*d.*d$)
It's basically the same simple pattern repeated 4 times as a capturing group (which must be all valid to count as a match).

• Start with .* so anything can be at the start of the string.
• Select the letter you want. In this case, a.
• Match anything .* in the middle of the string
• Then use a$ to make sure that same letter appears as the last letter in the string.
• Slap all that in a capturing group, (.*a.*a$) then separate the four letters with the | operator to allow any of them to count as a valid match.

Here's the regex in action: https://regex101.com/r/ZcbyQa/1

[hollow basalt]

seems weird that you would use | to match the letters

cause what if the professor asked the regex to be modified for a-z matching

[trail remnant]

That's a possibility. In that case I'd argue that the problem statement isn't very clear. The solution I posted is a regular expression, since it can be parsed by a finite state automata, which is the formal definition of a regular language.

[silk eagle]

yea you guys are not speaking english

[trail remnant]

If you're lazy, you can write some trivial code to just run the four regex in a row, returning true if it finds a match on any of them.
Something like this would work: (ignore my sloppy psudocode)

for x in [".*a.*a$", ".*b.*b$", ".*c.*c$", ".*d.*d$"]: 
    if MATCH(x): return True

[trail remnant]

Welcome to real College level "Computer Science". It's all about the science of computation. This includes a LOT of highly technical subjects with some really obscure and technical stuff.

[meager cape]

oh shit, thank you so much

[trail remnant]

In this case, we're discussing the technical definitions of "formal grammars", which is basically "how complicated is this programming language".
"Regular Languages" are the most simple, and any second or third year CS student should be able to write a parser for a regular language.
Here's a chart showing the complexity of formal languages (programming languages).

[trail remnant]

Wait, did I just get nerd sniped into solving someone's homework problem?

[meager cape]

😇

[meager cape]

If it makes you feel better @trail remnant your explanation genuinely did help me wrap my head around things and i could definitely do something similar on my own now

so you didn’t just spoonfeed me nothing but the answer

[trail remnant]

The key to using regex is to be really stupid. That's why I'm good at it. 😄

[meager cape]

Lmao, i should be a pro at it then

[storm berry]

I think you can do this with regular grammar

[trail remnant]

A bit late to catch up with the latest posts.

[hollow basalt]

i love it when people talk to me with automata

[hollow basalt]

agreed tbf, if i were to implement it. i won't do it by pure regex

[trail remnant]

I once wrote a tokenizer and a lexer to create a DSL.

[storm berry]

tbf you didn't say it can be done with a regular grammar

[hollow basalt]

we had to create our own compiler

shudders

[trail remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/stare-awkward-funny-what-huh-gif-5344114

[storm berry]

touche

[trail remnant]

The basic structure would look like an extended version of this finite state automata, where the bubbles contained another smaller finite state automata.
I simplified a lot of stuff because I'm lazy, and drawing with a mouse in MS Paint is hard.

I hereby submit my formal proof for the class to examine.

[storm berry]

I don't think you can reread your input in a fsa can you

it would be more like something with 2^4 + x states

with each of the 2^4 states being some combination of has/hasn't seen a,b,c, or d

[storm berry]

with the remaining states being ends with a,b,c, or d

[trail remnant]

But it shows that branching statements can be mapped to FSA, if you're willing to make things really really long and complicated.

The rest of that regex is stuff that's obviously FSA.

And if you're properly documenting all the states of a regex, then the thing does get massively complicated, because for each node on the graph, you could end up running out of characters to consume, so every single node needs a connection to one of the final states. Good luck drawing that in a simplified way.

[storm berry]

it would grow out of hand pretty quickly

but your diagram is simplified to the point where it's not a valid fsa

[hollow basalt]

all this FSA talk makes me want to go back to college and learn it agian for the first time

[trail remnant]

One day you'll actually learn to read what I said. But maybe today isn't that day.

This can also be more computationally expensive, because you'll basically be looking through the string once for each character you want to check.

[storm berry]

you aren't allowed to look through the string multiple times with an FSA

for just A and B

you can extend this to include c and d but I simplified it because I'm lazy

[trail remnant]

If that's true, then that means the greedy operator isn't technically regular then, and no professional implementation of regex is regular.

[wind horizon]

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-homer-simpson-bush-hide-bye-gif-16150806

What did I come back to.

[trail remnant]

Regex!

[wind horizon]

lol

[trail remnant]

At least we're not trying to decide if an email is valid using regex. We aren't that crazy.

[shy helm]

it's regular expression not regular language

😉

[supple hull]

I'm so glad there's Regex utilities online.

[hollow basalt]

haven't seen you in a while

[shy helm]

The original egrep implementation was using NFAs

[trail remnant]

Kyou sees all.

[hollow basalt]

omnipotent

[shy helm]

👼🏼 been busy, how ya doin

[hollow basalt]

hobbies or job?

[shy helm]

Job!

Moved to the US/NYC over the summer

[hollow basalt]

no remote for them?

[shy helm]

Lol, no, we're in office

[hollow basalt]

when regex is not regex

[hollow basalt]

yeaaa, I meant you're not a remote employee now

[trail remnant]

I mean, Pearl obviously violates the regular nature by having lookaheads and lookbehinds.

[wind horizon]

Nice NYC is a pretty cool city

[storm berry]

Nondeterministic finite state automata?

[shy helm]

yessir

[hollow basalt]

pearl changed the game, now lookahead and lookbehind are common

[storm berry]

those can be converted to fsa too lol

which is how I think super pickle's regex would be interpreted

and how you would get a greedy operator

[trail remnant]

It's also why you need to be careful when you use regex. If you don't understand which features can get you scanning over a string multiple times, then you can end up creating a regex that takes longer than the heat death of the universe to parse a relatively short string.

[hollow basalt]

a true power indeed

the only time it's fun is when you have the power to create and to destroy

[shy helm]

Yeah but building the NFA is easier

[storm berry]

true

[wind horizon]

There was a regex bug like a year or 2 ago in a popular auth lib, if you sent a malicious string / payload it'd wreck the server. Trying to remember which lib that was. 🤔

[trail remnant]

Not terribly surprising.

Sad, but not unexpected.

[wind horizon]

I guess that's the risk of so many ppl copy pasting some regex and not really know what the syntax is. LOL

[trail remnant]

More like, programmers who didn't understand the performance impact of certain things.

[wind horizon]

Every time I hear the joke about devs just Google and copy paste off stackoverflow it bothers me. It's fine to pull those up and read them to try and figure out the solution, but if you are just copy pasting code you have no idea what you are doing / using probably. lol

[trail remnant]

You know, I've heard that argument almost exactly word-for-word before.

I agree, but like, my real question is "What are you doing that's so complex that you don't understand it and need to resort to copy/pasting code?"

[wind horizon]

Like when you see code that tries to load 1GB file into memory todo some simple changes instead of streaming it from the disk. 😆

[trail remnant]

Bruh. Lets not talk about how literally the only programs I've used that can open and manage a 1GB file are VIM, VS Code, and other IDEs.

That's so common it's not even funny.

[wind horizon]

That's true, I feel like once I learned enough to follow docs I really stopped ending up on stackoverflow.

[trail remnant]

And that's why I prefer C# out of all the major programming languages.

It's not just that Microsoft's documentation is only matched by Kubernetes Docs.
It's that the Microsoft obsession with high quality docs means that literally almost every library I've used has high quality docs that solve any possible problem I could have. Stack overflow is only useful when I need a quick answer to some API I've forgotten the syntax for.

Like, if you need to do some complex thing in most languages, you're either reading whitepapers and trying to figure out the solution yourself, or you're scavenging through obscure blog posts describing some sort of esoteric language/compiler feature that does what you need. And the docs are badly written or out of date.
Meanwhile, Microsoft has the official language specification and a comprehensive set of explanations for every feature in the language and related toolkit.

[wind horizon]

Except in PowerShell, maybe it's fixed now haven't used it in like 5yrs lol, but I remember back in the day PowerShell docs sucked.

Well to be clear everything was documented well, but exploring them was poorly done. Like things weren't linked to jump to other areas of docs and the keywords either didn't exist or sucked. haha

[trail remnant]

Yeah, PowerShell is meh. But compared to bash, it's amazing.

[wind horizon]

My biggest gripe at work right now is lack of written documentation, they love todo video calls for knowledge transfers. I'm like but written docs I can search and read what I need when I need it. I guess only way to get similar would be to send the recordings off to be transcribed. 🤔

Either way I'm like give me that wall of text docs, just the way I learn best. lol

[wind horizon]

Yeah bash docs are weird, a lot of times end up in MAN pages. lol

[hollow basalt]

wait , you're saying PS > bash?

or the just the docs

[wind horizon]

I think just in docs

[trail remnant]

Here's an exercise: Echo the following string on the console: She said "I can't do it!" I'll wait.

[hollow basalt]

Ok just wait until I'm not lazy enpugh

[trail remnant]

I mean, that's fair

[trail remnant]

But that's not the correct output.

[hollow basalt]

I mean I just copy pasted

forget one liners

[trail remnant]

Yeah, but that's the whole point. Bash has incredibly complicated rules for parsing, and it makes it really annoying to do certain things.

And led to the parser being incomprehensible, which led to the bash bug.

[hollow basalt]

but but. I used PS

[hollow basalt]

you mean you didn't want shell bombs?

[trail remnant]

I mean, shell bombs are cool and all, but have you seen the logging bomb?

Way better than a silly old shell bomb.

[hollow basalt]

not familiar with the name but probs already saw it

[trail remnant]

Wait, you missed the log4j stuff?

HOW

[hollow basalt]

oh, thought we just with the bash exploits

[trail remnant]

Ah, nah. I was referencing other huge exploits.

[wind horizon]

Yeah that convo jump confused me for a sec too haha

[trail remnant]

But yeah, Bash has some serious usability problems, and some seriously terrible syntax.

[wind horizon]

But PS syntax is over verbose imo, what's up with all the long method names? lol

[trail remnant]

It hasn't been touched because everything got grandfathered in when Linux hit the server world. You can't change Bash without breaking program interop for the whole system.

[hollow basalt]

"self documenting"

[hollow basalt]

the reason why we have tons of shell

[wind horizon]

Self documenting = too long for me to remember 😆

[trail remnant]

The verbosity is actually a feature. When you're reading someone else's code, it's really nice to have more descriptive function names.

[hollow basalt]

The verbosity is actually a feature.
me remembering cobol. STOP STOP

[wind horizon]

I take a middle road on that. I think there is a point of too verbose and it's more so distracting / annoying. lol

[trail remnant]

You also should be writing Powershell in an IDE that has code completion, so you get lots of help remembering things. And you can use the shortened names for functions if you really want to.

[hollow basalt]

https://tenor.com/view/nam-flashbacks-war-dog-ptsd-gif-5267800

[trail remnant]

Okay, Cobol is way too verbose. I think we can all agree on that.

[hollow basalt]

you using ISE?

[trail remnant]

But Go is too terse. Constantly using single variable names makes it almost literally impossible to search for a specific variable. It's annoying.

[trail remnant]

Are you drunk? That's horrible. Just use VS Code.

[hollow basalt]

phew, almost thought an actual human being uses that

[trail remnant]

Heck no.

[wind horizon]

First time I learned about ISE I was like cool thinking it was going to be something neat. Few mins later I was like, wtf is the point in this thing? lol

I guess it was handy that 1 time I was on a Windows Server that had no internet and no IDE... lol

[hollow basalt]

no. people should ship the code to the server, done and ready to run

🤣

no coding in the actual server allowed

[wind horizon]

Well it was a script not a program haha.

I have never used PS for an actual program 😆

[trail remnant]

Remember that in the 90s, nothing needed to be professional.

[wind horizon]

I read about it, but wasn't in tech during the 90s. lol

[hollow basalt]

the what

[trail remnant]

I'm thinking about all the small businesses that picked up Windows servers and used them for "business", with little to no idea of how to manage technology.
This wasn't the Linux gurus, it was newbies with their first server when the internet was just starting to get big.

[wind horizon]

I mean a lot of SMB still kind of do this, I think MS has just gotten better at making the default settings more secure.

Although not that many years ago I was at a friends office of a small like 100 person company and I saw they just turned Windows firewall off on everything instead of opening ports..... So yeah those ppl still exist. LOL

I think there argument was they didn't need it since they had a physical firewall for the internet, I was like ummm so you don't care about any internal security or east - west traffic? lol

[shy helm]

@trail remnant have you seen Xonsh

[hollow basalt]

noice no firewall

[trail remnant]

I haven't seen Xonsh. It looks interesting, but the main selling point of Bash is that it's already installed on every linux machine.

Once you start getting into specialized shells, why not just write your app in pure python, rather than having to try installing a bunch of odd dependencies?

[shy helm]

I mean, this is a shell, so it’s for REPL

Instead of having to use a shell + jupyter notebook

[wind horizon]

I have gotten used to introducing TypeScript to projects and helping devs learn it, but recently I had someone's excuse for not wanting to learn it be "I don't trust Microsoft" 😆

I thought I had heard all the reasons, but that was a new one to hear. Lol

[silk eagle]

do they also hate Go

[somber dome]

Powershell is amazing on it's own, to manage windows servers it's really neat, some features are super cool like the whole remote session thing. Or just simply the fact that it's object based.
It's a bit "over verbose" like @wind horizon said, and they often try to reinvent the wheel, example : for conditions you can't use "=, <" etc like any other programming language out there but you have to type "-eq" for "equal" ....
But the docs are super good, and the language is improving really fast.
Also you simply don't have bash on windows without some sort of VM, while you can have PS on linux.
However if you want to write some simple stuff it becomes bloated quite fast

Bash is more set in stone, more known, preinstalled on linux servers and the default interpreter, easier to get into (when you go from "I often use the command line" to "i write some simple script"), doesn't require to understand object-based programming and isn't overly verbose (which can be a good AND a bad thing for this one for both) but is a bit archaic from time to time.

But IMO, when you need to do some real scripting ... python is the way

[somber dome]

Exactly what I think (and do at work)

[fierce arrow]

Some of the things I see in this channel scare me. I'm only about 5 months into programming

[trail remnant]

Honestly, one of the best features of Powershell is that it is object based. It makes it super easy to grab the output of a command that's automatically formatted as a table of data, and pull specific elements from that data easily, without needing to do a giant ton of text processing with it. In bash you have to remember and know how to effectively use half a dozen specialized text processing utilities, while Powershell only asks you to learn one consistent object oriented syntax.

[trail remnant]

Don't worry. There will be plenty of time to learn all this stuff. But yes, our industry is a big mess.

[wind horizon]

Yeah but at that point why not use a full language? Lol

[trail remnant]

Because you need to run a thing on someone's desktop, but you can't install anything on it.

The same exact reason you'd write something in bash.

[wind horizon]

I don't really do that often, but I guess. I mostly used PS just for basic admin tasks.

[trail remnant]

Alternatively, you don't want the complication of building and deploying software.

[trail remnant]

Exactly the same reasons you'd use bash.

[wind horizon]

Yeah but bash is more widely usable imo, it's been around for ages and works great everywhere except windows. Just feels like MS wanted to be MS and be different. Lol

I mean I'm not complaining, PS is still 1000x better than good old cmd / batch scripts. Haha

I am glad PS also added aliases / support for some common bash commands. That has made life between the 2 a little easier.

[fierce arrow]

Yeah it's just overwhelming looking

[wind horizon]

Just one thing at a time, there is tones you'll learn over time. You can get started with pretty minimal knowledge honestly and just keep expanding on it over years.

[rancid cedar]

HiHi!
Kinda need some help on some PS scripting, just need an opinion on if there's more efficient ways to do what I'm doing

while($true){
$owo = "OK"
while($owo -eq "OK") {
$owo = Get-PnpDevice -PresentOnly -FriendlyName "Oculus Composite XRSP Interface" | Select Status | Out-String -Stream | Select-String "OK"
Sleep -Seconds 5
}
Get-PnpDevice  -FriendlyName "*AMD Radeon*" | Enable-PnpDevice -Confirm:$false
while($owo -ne "OK") {
$owo = Get-PnpDevice -PresentOnly -FriendlyName "Oculus Composite XRSP Interface" | Select Status | Out-String -Stream | Select-String "OK"
Sleep -Seconds 5
}
Get-PnpDevice  -FriendlyName "*AMD Radeon*" | Disable-PnpDevice -Confirm:$false
}```

So basically, this script is supposed to scan my PC every 5 seconds to see if an Oculus VR headset has been connected, and if it has, it's supposed to disable the laptop's integrated GPU

the script is still not finished so it won't work, but is there a more efficient way of achieving the same thing?

[midnight wind]

I don't think the loop is efficient. Idk much about ps, but in my mind having the script launch on a callback would be better

Let me check if that exists even

[rancid cedar]

plan on using task scheduler to run at startup

but i would've made it run on an event

but thing is, I can't seem to find documentation online as to which event a USB device being connected will produce

And yeah, I don't think the loop is very efficient either, but I know no other way of making it

[wind horizon]

Yeah I'd attach it to the event if possible instead of never ending loop.

You can usually find the right event by using event viewer in windows.

Plug in the device and look for the event it creates in event viewer.

[wind horizon]

Lol

[rancid cedar]

thing is, I did that, and it produces no events

so that doesn't help

I was going to use power automate but it can't even run scripts in admin

[wind horizon]

Hmm I see there is supposed to be an event for usb devices. Idk if you already tried something like this, but here is a tutorial on USB storage device events in Windows 10. I wonder if there would be a similar USB event for the headset. 🤔

https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-track-down-usb-flash-drive-usage-in-windows-10s-event-viewer/

That or perhaps you can tie into your VR software and when you launch it you run your script? 🤔

Or I mean I guess you could just throw the script in a file on your desktop you double click that will run the check and toogle it. Lol

[rancid cedar]

that could help

[rancid cedar]

I'm too forgetful for that, I would just leave the iGPU permanently disabled if it were my laptop, but alas

[rancid cedar]

Holy moly of a reddit post I just made. I finished making the script, and posted it to r/Oculus to share it with anyone else who needed it, and the whole tutorial took 12k characters.

[wind horizon]

Nice!

[hollow basalt]

Nice!

[plush valley]

# Define a WMI event query, that looks for new instances of Win32_LogicalDisk where DriveType is "2"
# http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa394173(v=vs.85).aspx
$Query = "select * from __InstanceCreationEvent within 5 where TargetInstance ISA 'Win32_LogicalDisk' and TargetInstance.DriveType = 2";

# Define a PowerShell ScriptBlock that will be executed when an event occurs
$Action = { & C:\test\script.ps1;  };

# Create the event registration
Register-WmiEvent -Query $Query -Action $Action -SourceIdentifier USBFlashDrive;

This only runs when a USB Flash Drive which Identifies as Win32_LogicalDisk is detected.

You can search for the __InstanceCreationEvent in the WMI (By logging it) for the Oculus Insert

Once it detects it, itll run defined Script

This way you dont have a background Task, its based off Events, not Polling which is way more easier on the CPU

[somber dome]

As a matter of fact PowerShell IS more widely usable since it's available on all platforms

[shy helm]

I mean, that’s pretty meaningless because I doubt most companies running fleets of Linux machines are going to install powershell on them

[somber dome]

That's true

For now

But it's also meaningless to say that bash is "more widely usable" when it's not

[silk eagle]

this conversation was helpful to me im now using powershell instead of bash to make something work easier across platforms

🙏 thank u

[wind horizon]

Except almost no Linux servers or Macs have it installed, yes yes I know smbs and such may do that but the "avg" Linux container and such doesn't have it today. That makes PS mostly a Windows tool today and often easier to reach for bash well before adding PS to an env just to run a script.

Perhaps to be more specific I should have said more widely usable outside of Windows. I just don't work in Windows ever other than my gaming computer, so I'm used to every env and container I touch having bash and PS would have to be added.

[pliant siren]

heh, I just saw Linus's bounty in the latest video.

Yeah, definitely more than a $5k job 😄

[wind horizon]

Hmm I'd normally give it a go, but I don't think that unit is compatible with my hvac for testing it out. 🤔

Yup Google says I'd need newer Trane unit for it to be able to talk to it. That's more than $5k in upgrades alone and by time it's upgraded someone else prob will have completed the bounty. 😅

[pliant siren]

Now that I think about it, that's $500/day so 10 days/2 weeks work, so it's not a terrible contract rate to take it on as a project IF you have access to some kind of spec or sample to test it on.

Really depends on the availability of sample data/specs.

[nocturne galleon]

hi guys, if I wanted to make an installer for my program how would I go about it? would I store the program as a byte array and simply write it to a file? what if I wanted it to store the program compressed? thanks.

[wind horizon]

If I had access to a system todo the network traffic inspection and test against I'd do it just for the fun of it even without cash prize. Lol

[hollow basalt]

Whrre did linus put the bounty

[wind horizon]

The home video, uploaded to YouTube yesterday.

Said $5k if someone can make it so he can control this thermostat from his home network instead of the cloud. But it's a thermostat for one of those hvac systems with closable vents and such.

[hollow basalt]

Oh, i don't have those

[wind horizon]

Yeah my same problem or I'd do it. Haha

[fierce arrow]

the 5k thermostat bounty?

[trail remnant]

What it means to "install" a program depends on what operating system you're using, because they all have different processes for users to install things. On Linux, it's complicated. On Windows, there's a standard set of APIs for bundling things with a Windows installer. On Mac/Android/IOs, there's definitely some consistent tools for installing programs, but I don't know enough about those platforms to help with that. For Windows, this is probably a good starting place in the installer docs: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/msi/installation-package

If you're talking about simply creating a binary, that's literally what your compiler does. It takes your code and creates the binary code necessary for running your code on a specific type of CPU and OS. If you're using an interpreted language like Python or a cross platform runtime language like Java/C#, you pass your code/bytecode to the language runtime, (Python interpreter, Java Virtual Machine, C# CLR, Bash shell, etc.) and that program executes your file.

Note: Theoretically, you can just zip up your binary and allow users to download it (or just email it to them). Some simple programs can do this just fine. There's nothing wrong with zipping up a binary if you're submitting a school assignment or doing a small test project. However, it requires a lot more work from the end user. If you're trying to create a product to sell, or trying to create something that looks like a professional application, that's where you need to package your application using the correct OS specific libraries. That's quite a bit of work if you're not familiar with the process.

[twilit beacon]

Can anyone help me, I'm stupid and can't figure out why my while function keeps on looping.

secret_word = "troll"
guess = ""
tries = 0
limit = 3
reached = False

while guess != secret_word and not(reached):
    print("You have " + " tries left!")
    if tries < limit:
        guess = input("Say a funny word: ")
        tries += 1
    else:
        reached = True

if not(reached):
    print("You lost!")
else:
    print("You won!")```

i went through everything though i cant seem to find the solution

[trail remnant]

Write out the boolean logic for that conditional check.

Or step through the code with a debugger.

[wind horizon]

Hmm I almost never write python now but I didn't think not was a method, I thought it was just not X

But been a long time since I touched python haha, what Super Pickle suggested is a good idea, also it'll give you a chance to learn debugging to learn how to help solve more complex problems in the future on your own.

[twilit beacon]

dont mind that anymore, i realised i had to save it and that thats why it didnt work

[silk eagle]

ok i msade a jsoke about cstrl s but warshsip disdnt liske ist ysou gsuys sget its

[twilit beacon]

So i tried optimizing it a bit (its my first time working with while). Is there anything i should change?

s_word = "troll"
guess = ""
tries = 0
limit = 3

while guess != s_word and tries < limit:
    guess = input("Say a funny word: ")
    tries += 1

if guess == s_word:
    print("You won!")
else:
    print("You lost!")```

[silk eagle]

maybe do <= if u want the limit to be 3 guesses

[twilit beacon]

somehow it shows as three in vscode

i am alsoconfused

[silk eagle]

oh i did a brain thing tries is 0

[twilit beacon]

nvm

[silk eagle]

0 -> 1 (1)
1 -> 2 (2)
tries is still less than 3
2 -> 3 (3)

[twilit beacon]

yeah i realised

[twilit beacon]

even better

word = "troll"
tries = 0

while (guess:= input("Enter a funny: ")) != word and tries < 3:
    tries += 1

print(f"You {['lost', 'won'][guess == word]}") #f-string```

ok now i condensed the f out of this code

i dont think it can be even further simplified

(im most likely wrong)

[silk eagle]

u can put tries += 1 on the same line

after the colon

[sturdy ingot]

You may have to try harder next time... 😛

print(f"You {['lost', 'won']['troll' in (input('Enter a funny: ') for _ in range(3))]}")

Seriously though, don't write code like this. Keep the Python-Zen in mind (aka import this).

[silk eagle]

one liners are terrifying and i dont understand them

[storm berry]

I was going to write an explanation but the warship doesn't like me repeating characters ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[wind horizon]

wwwaaarrrssshhhiiippp 🤔

I wonder what their content filter is, it seems to get a fairly high amount of false postive. Lol

[obtuse night]

It's the worst when you paste an error message, and it mutes you for the block capitals...

[storm berry]

it also deletes the entire comment so there's no way to retype it without redoing it all

[fierce arrow]

I like your pfp

[hollow basalt]

how about 2 lines

s[999],*r=s,*d,c;main(a,b){char*v=1[d=b];for(;c=*v++%93;)for(b=c%7?a&&(c&17?c&1?
(*r-=c-44):(r+=c-61):c&2?putchar(*r):(*r=getchar()),0):v;b&&c|a**r;v=d)main(!c,&
b-1);d=v;}

excerpt from https://j.mearie.org/post/1181041789/brainfuck-interpreter-in-2-lines-of-c

[fierce arrow]

This makes me scared of continuing C

[storm berry]

wait till you see the code for interpreting other languages

[hollow basalt]

the 2 line is an interpreter

[silk eagle]

that looks like what happens when you open an exe in notepad.

[storm berry]

Yeah but it's probably easier to learn than an interpreter for a serious language

[sturdy ingot]

Do you want an explanation for the single-line game?

[sturdy ingot]

That's almost readable. 😄

[silk eagle]

for python specifically yes 🙏

[sturdy ingot]

Let's start by rewriting the code into easier to parse snippets.

ask = (input('Enter a funny: ') for _ in range(3))

result = "troll" in ask

answer = ['lost', 'won'][result]
print(f"You {answer}")

The last two lines are not that interesting, as print uses an f-string, and answer misuses indexing by a boolean value (e.g. [0,1][True] is 1, [0,1][False] is 0).

So let's look at result. result uses in. needle in iterable goes through the iterable collection. As soon as the current element matches needle, the iteration stops and we get True. Otherwise we continue. If no element in the iterable collection fits, we get False.

Or, in other words, the result line is semantically the same as

result = False
for element in ask:         # this is NOT the same "in" operator
    if "troll" == element:
        result = True
        break

Note that in in for ... in is not the same as the in operator. See Python's documentation for more information about that.

So, we now know that our loop stops as soon as we hit the correct word. But why do we not get three questions regardless?

Enter the Generator Expression (genexp):

ask = (input('Enter a funny: ') for _ in range(3))

This creates a generator. A generator gen is iterable with next(gen), and only if next(gen) gets called the expression in (expr for a in b) gets evaluated. We could write ask also as

def generate_questions():
    for i in range(3):
        yield input('Enter a funny: ')

ask = generate_questions()

Think of yield similar as return, but you can get the next value via next, e.g.

def generate_numbers():
    for i in range(3):
        yield i

nums = generate_questions()
print(str(next(nums))) # prints 0
print(str(next(nums))) # prints 1
print(str(next(nums))) # prints 2
print(str(next(nums))) # throws StopIteration

The calls of next happen behind the scene in 'troll' in ask.

This may still be incomprehensible, tbh, but I had to write this in parallel to something else, sorry 😅

[silk eagle]

🙏 thank you for this, i will study this so i can finally make 8000 character long python lines that aren't readable at all. i wasn't expecting a legitimate, well constructed answer so thanks a bunch i appreciate it bro.

[sturdy ingot]

Heh next time I'll just say "Python goes brrrrrrr lol" 🤣

[warm pebble]

Very dumb problem I am trying to solve at work. I make maps right? So I have batch exported a ton of maps into individual PDFs, however the team that needs them wants the map in an excel format cause they need to add additional sheets to it (for whatever reason). What is the best way to batch convert/insert these PDFs into their own excel sheet

I have tried pdf to excel converters but they break the PDF because they don't insert it as an image

[hollow basalt]

I make maps right?
idk, maybe?

[warm pebble]

I was thinking there is definitely a python library out there that will convert them to something like a PNG no problem, but I am not certain the best way to automate putting that PNG into its own sheet (and naminh the sheet based on the name of the PNG)

[warm pebble]

Yes, just trying to illustrate that as a map guy, my automation skills are limited haha

[hollow basalt]

yea you could automate it with python though, you just need to start

[kindred iris]

You guys know how I prevent piracy on my Project? (not asking for help. Just an quick question)

[hollow basalt]

yes

[kindred iris]

How would you do that then?

[hollow basalt]

not release it

[kindred iris]

lol, I did it like that: it is for free. (yeah ok, I might make something for patreon, but it will be free as long i work on it.) and it is open source.

[hollow basalt]

open source
wants to prevent piracy

[kindred iris]

it is simple: you can't pirate something that is for free right?

That is the approach. And since it is a hobby of mine and I learn something with each update, it is just something I could stop in any time if I wanted.

And Currently i'm trying to make the Code a bit more serviceable.

because i realised: good god, it is hard to read... (for beginners)

it is made in Python by the way [[Can't] Kyou]

[kindred iris]

Yeah, how do you pirate something that is available for free?

Well I'm going to sleep now

[silk eagle]

just open source it, say its protected under the UNLICENSE, and then nobody will ever pirate it because you cant pirate something thats publicly available and unlicensed

[kindred iris]

Wait I do have to add that?

Next time I'm on coding. 😉

[silk eagle]

licenses arent really necessary for just casual projects if u dont care about who uses the code, but its worth noting that they exist and if u specify a license for your project you can slay people on github who steal your code in ways that doesnt abide by the rules of the license

could be a "credit me bro" type thing or a "no selling the product if u steal my code bro" type thing

https://choosealicense.com/licenses/

[kindred iris]

Oh, Ok. Thanks. That's going to be an additional thing for version 1.9 then.

[silk eagle]

(and they scare evildoers off which is always fun)

[kindred iris]

lol

me going to zzz land

[fiery terrace]

There should be a PC handhelds channel for the Aya, GPD, Steam Deck, etc.

[ivory gorge]

any idea where i should start to learn python for data analyst?

[storm berry]

if you already know the math I'm sure numpy and pandas are useful libraries to learn

[ivory gorge]

okay thanks!

[kindred iris]

well, what is the unlicense meant to do?

[storm berry]

I think it's a more formal way of saying "do whatever you want with it, just don't come at me if something goes wrong"

[kindred iris]

oh... i actually want to hear if the Code has issues...

[storm berry]

well it doesn't say not to file a bug report

but like don't sue me if someone dies using this

[kindred iris]

oh. lmfao

thanks by the way. i'm not really in to that someone sells it tho

but i'm Chill with everything except everything to do with money.

except i may add an Patreon donation...

[kindred iris]

ok, Thanks. i removed the Selling part because i'm Sorta chill with it but mostly not.

[trail remnant]

"Removed" as in, modified the existing license?

Or "removed" as in "picked a difference license that doesn't support selling the code"?

Because those two are COMPLETELY different in a legal sense. Making changes to a legal contract can have BIG huge implications.

For example, in Georgia USA, if your employment contract doesn't have a specified duration, it's legally invalid. Literally more worthless than toilet paper. All employment contracts MUST have an expiration date, or the entire contract is unenforceable. By removing the duration section, you can accidentally invalidate the entire thing. Little rules like that are why you should always either:

1. Use an unmodified pre-existing legal license that has held up in court before
   or
2. Talk to a literal lawyer, to have them review/modify/write a license that works for you.

[wind horizon]

Github has a nice TL;DR for many common licenses. If you don't care how people use your code typical default is MIT, if you care and want todo copy left where your code is more limited to other open source works you'll likely want to look into some of the GPL options.

[trail remnant]

Glam knows his stuff.

[wind horizon]

Reminds me of when color and faker maintainer got upset and broke his own packages. I'm like if you didn't want companies to use it for free why did you release it as MIT? Lol

[trail remnant]

Lol

The ego doesn't think things through. He made a decision based on convenience, and when he didn't like the results he got emotional and did something stupid.

[wind horizon]

Now he has some nasty search results that come up if a future employer Google him I bet LOL

I feel like a safer move would have been for him to just post he's looking for supporters for the project or else he'll have to stop maintaining it because of how much time it's taking up.

[trail remnant]

I mean like, having a highly successful open source project on your resume practically guarantees you a good job and plenty of job offers. Why get greedy because you couldn't sell a project when you never tried to monetize it? But he got greedy, so he ruined a huge number of job opportunities because of a single short sighted decision.

And yeah, if he's not able to maintain it, then just drop it. MIT doesn't guarantee support. It's the literal opposite.
Open source projects typically drift from maintainer to maintainer for exactly that reason.

[wind horizon]

Yup someone will just fork it if you don't hand over control.

[trail remnant]

Or, post a big update saying that you're willing to be paid to keep the project running, but otherwise you'll shut it down.

Or just let them make a fork and rename it.

Like, there are so many better decisions there.

[wind horizon]

I have had 2 old repos I no longer need / maintain that ppl messaged me asked to fork it and take over the npm package. I was like yeah go for it.

[trail remnant]

I bet that he's got some social issues. Like he feels like he's being pushed around or something. Greed is a bit more logical than intentionally breaking a project that could make you money.

Like, he felt obligated to support the project, even though he literally published it with zero guarantees of support. Then when he hit his breaking point, that's when the stupidity came out. You don't just end up breaking an important project for logical reasons.

[wind horizon]

Yeah, lots of stress and maybe problems at his day job.

[trail remnant]

Yeah, that sounds about right. A bad and stressful job, along with thankless work maintaining a project you feel required to maintain, with zero support.
That'll push someone to the breaking point.

That's why everyone should learn to stand up for yourself, and prioritize your own health. If you neglect yourself, it hurts you and everyone around you.

Relevant meme/life advice:

[wind horizon]

Took me many years to learn that, now when I see our Jr devs online for like 10hrs I sometimes ping them and remind them to take a break, the work will still be there tomorrow. It takes something truly critical to make me work any OT now.

[trail remnant]

Yeah. It's an important lesson for anyone to learn.

[wind horizon]

Yeah I think it's common for us to make work so important, almost like a part of our identity. Think how many ppl you meet even outside of a work setting who introduce themselves and say what they do for work.

But really I mean it's just how you make money, it's not who you are. It's a big part of life and influences you a lot, but it's not your identity imo. If tomorrow I gave up dev a did something like became a pilot it wouldn't change who I am as a person.

[hollow basalt]

I didn't install teams on my phone

These people can't reach me when I'm not on my laptop

[midnight wind]

I only have it to send pictures

No notifications on

[hollow basalt]

yea, it's much easier to send pictures.
but I am tempted to open it at times

so it's pretty much me disciplining myself not to think about work outside of hours

[next cipher]

are we talking about the colors/faker guy? because there was a lot more going on there than just being upset people were using his open source code

like, the guy has major issues and i hope he gets help

[trail remnant]

That's what I assumed.
#development message

[next cipher]

specifically, he blew his apartment up trying to make explosives because he got deep into some conspiracy theory cults

[trail remnant]

That's uhhhh, a bit more than I was expecting.

That's Temple OS levels of worrying.

[next cipher]

so like as much as i hope he gets help, i also don't think it's a typical example of the open source ecosystem

yeah exactly, a lot of people hear "he had some issues" and don't realize it was at that kind of level

[hollow basalt]

What guy? The chaos one?

[wind horizon]

I see a news article for person with the same name in NYC back in 2020, is that the same person? Says they were arrested for reckless endangerment, I'd think if it was the same person they'd be like in jail still or something.

Thats wild, I didn't hear anything about it being to that level. 😅

[hollow basalt]

link

[wind horizon]

Oh this local news article says he was a software developer and BTC investor, which you can see on his Github he uses a site on the etherium name service so clearly into crypto. So prob is the same person, dang how / why did they let someone who tried to bomb their place back into society so quickly? Lol

https://abc7ny.com/suspicious-package-queens-astoria-fire/6425363/

[hollow basalt]

we live in a society

[somber dome]

Is Go still hyped nowadays ?

[wind horizon]

Idk if it's hyped, but I'd think ppl are still excited by it / find it interesting to play with. But I deff think it is getting old enough to no longer be that new thing everyone wants to play with. Haha

[obtuse night]

The community isn't getting any smaller, and the number of companies adopting it is still increasing

[next cipher]

yeah it's the same person, he tweeted about it (in a very roundabout way) at the time... i.e. "i am about to be homeless please sponsor my GitHub projects" then everyone in the replies says "wait aren't you homeless because you blew up your house?"

like i feel bad for the guy in the abstract cuz he clearly is going through some stuff but ..... also hard to actually feel sorry for him to the extent that i would use or sponsor any of his software

[hollow basalt]

feels like a templeOs thing?

whereas we have a talent but are held back by mental health

[next cipher]

yeah seems like it imo

[trail remnant]

https://tenor.com/view/yeah-thats-what-i-said-jerry-seinfeld-30rock-thats-what-i-told-you-i-told-you-that-already-gif-19231773

[edgy path]

hey anyone help me with a function in c?

i was trying to use the sqrt function to determine the squareroot of an positive interger number through a c program so i included the <math.h> header file and also i am on a linux environment with gcc compiler.

so is there any other way to determine the squareroot of a number in a linux environment

[trail remnant]

This is a pretty terrible question. Read this and update your question. You'll get a lot more help.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

[hollow basalt]

i didn't know linux determines the squareroot of a number differently

[trail remnant]

It shouldn't. On x86 there are multiple squareroot CPU instructions. Linux should just be shelling those calls out to the CPU.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86_instruction_listings

The question is missing key information. They asked about C functions, then importing code, then they throw a Linux question in there. There's not enough information to properly answer the question because there's almost no information in the question.

I think they're just having problems getting their C imports to work correctly. Someone with more experience would know how to give the correct level of detail in their question.

[hollow basalt]

That's sarcastic if it wasn't obvious

[trail remnant]

Ah, sarcasm wasn't obvious.

I guess I'm just used to people not bothering to read or think for themselves. Gotta remember that you're one of the smart ones.

[sturdy ingot]

Most likely they use a version of GCC that does not link against the math library by default, but without any error message... 🤷

[ornate spire]

i didnt realize that all my unity stuff was combining into one folder, and the folder corrupted and ive lost everything ive ever worked on : <

trying to see if i can recover a backup or somthing now

[thin raven]

hi

[trail remnant]

And now you know why everyone preaches the message of backup redundancy.

[silk eagle]

make sure you politically geographically disperse your backups

i have mine in EU countries, NATO countries, and whatever type of country Russia is

[hollow basalt]

a good country

[trail remnant]

[uneven orbit]

Yall, im at my wits end. I am creating a script for a game server i run. Its an in game tablet. We have a community website that is built with wordpress. I would like to have the website display in the tablet, however the only way i know to do this is to use iframe. The website does not show when trying to add it to a iframe. What can i do?

[wind horizon]

Can you iframe this site on another page correctly or just not on the in game tablet?

It could be something like the x frame options, but first step is to troubleshoot this and isolate the problem. Is the problem with the iframe you wrote / this site or is the problem with something inside the game.

Copy past the iframe code into another site and not on the wordpress. You can use something jsfiddle or codepen to test your code.

[uneven orbit]

Sorry I gave limited information. I have tried sticking it in the tablet by replacing the link that was already in the iframe, to which it just returned a white blank screen in the tablet, so I then went online to a iframe tester and plugged my website in to which of course, had a negative return saying "website couldnt connect" which sounds like my website is blocking it. I then tried it with another site which is called tunein.com which the tester website and the tablet was able to return with the website. So it seems my website is blocking ability to work on iframe. We actually have 2 websites, one is through WordPress and the other is php. Hopefully that's some more clarification.

[wind horizon]

Load up the iframe and open your dev tools (F12 on browser) and look if there are any errors. Sounds like probably the x-frame-options.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTTP/Headers/X-Frame-Options

[storm berry]

Do both sites not work? Both PHP and WordPress?

[twilit beacon]

how do i make the variable "guess := input()" equate to the other variable "secret"

print(f"You have {['lost', 'won'][guess := input("say a funny") == secret]} ")

[twilit beacon]

nvm i alread figured it out

[twilit beacon]

wait now i have another question, so i fixed it so theres no sytax issur that vscode detects, why does it now output

print(f"You have {['lost', 'won'][(guess := input("say a funny")) == secret]} ")

[zenith sand]

What are you trying to do again?

[uneven orbit]

That's correct

[lament bridge]

I have a config file which contains a line:
; perDomainRateLimit = 0

The thing is, I want to get the exact string here. For example, it can be:

perDomainRateLimit = 4
or 
;perDomainRateLimit = 12 

I want to get the line even if it has semicolon and space after it, but I am struggle to find the right regex.

Can someone help?

Oh, nvm lol that was easy af

[fierce arrow]

Is there anyways I could improve the readability of this? Its for an assignment and I don't wanna lose a point for a silly reason.

[fierce arrow]

It works

It does what hes asking in the question. Why is it unfinished?

[twilit beacon]

basically its a print statement printing an f-string which decides whether to say lost or won based on of the user has inputted the correct word (the "secret" variable)

oh yeah i realised i didnt write the problem clearly

basically, it gets the "won" or "lost" correctly, but instead of writing then normally it writes them { 'lost' } and stuff like that

[pine monolith]

so i have this thing on my website with 4 pages, but there are random spaces in between the parts, but in the html code, those aren't there

this is the html code

can somebody who knows how this works help me

this is the css if you need that

[fierce arrow]

Personally i think it looks better with the spacing but, its likely your margins.

I made them a little closer together @pine monolith

I just changed these

[pine monolith]

but those spaces are still there

[fierce arrow]

you want no spacing at all?

[pine monolith]

i want spacing but not those spaces
like this (this is on a different part of the website)

i want these to go away

and i dont know how

[fierce arrow]

im gonna try some stuff

[pine monolith]

alright

[fierce arrow]

fixed it

and just change these back to 1em

All I did was place the all the list link things on the same line

@pine monolith btw is this for a website for a pizza shop or something lol?

[pine monolith]

nice

thanks

[pine monolith]

no, pizzapuntthomas is my username (pizzapunt is pizzaslice in dutch) and the website is for a cinematography company but i dont have that company yet (i maybe will have that company in 10 years or more)

[fierce arrow]

Oh, that's pretty cool. I'm sure the site will be pretty baller by then!

[pine monolith]

yes i think so too

[midnight wind]

fyi if this is for a school project, almost no one make websites anymore in pure html/css/js

[pine monolith]

no it isnt i just want to learn html and css

[midnight wind]

fair

[fierce arrow]

@midnight wind what else is used now? I am new to all this so im curious

[pine monolith]

maybe soon i will have a html school project and then i can just send this site to my teacher

[twilit beacon]

nvm again forget this

[midnight wind]

good to know the underlying stuff before moving up an abstraction

[pine monolith]

yes

btw what did those js scripts do?

[midnight wind]

various things. For many websites wordpress is used. It's the fastest way to get a website up and running with all the themes out there. A CMS (which wordpress is) is a must for like basic just content websites so people can easily edit the content. For actual web apps, Djano, React, Vue, Svelte, etc. are used too. It's very confusing

[midnight wind]

what does js do?

allows you to run code in the browser to do all sorts of stuff

[fierce arrow]

it runs it on there computer basically

[pine monolith]

i know

but what specific thing did these scripts do

[midnight wind]

idk I didn't download the files

[fierce arrow]

You did not have any js on your site from what i downloaded

[midnight wind]

I see now

<html lang="en">
<head>
        <title>PizzaPuntThomas - Home</title>
        <link rel="Icon" href="PizzaPuntThomasRound.png" >
        <link rel="stylesheet" href="indexstyle.css"> 
<script async src='/cdn-cgi/bm/cv/669835187/api.js'></script></head>
<body>
        <img alt="Home" src="PizzaPuntThomasRound.png" width="300px" height="300px">
        <ul>
                <a href="about.html">About</a>
                <a href="projects.html">Projects</a>
                <a href="services.html">Services</a>
                <a href="contact.html">Contact</a>
        </ul>
<script type="text/javascript">(function(){window['__CF$cv$params']={r:'6dbf9a40af898cca',m:'SCHkp2Uy0IftRhxKuptx.NGs7o7cNYFaQ7ZkT29qbNE-1644603745-0-AapJEjILWGyz50NUayWA484cgUfWqYy6qihqOmnpUCXtRZ+zopSS3q2QeBNjLd/7fvAsbD21a0N+ptiUV87d4vwn12dbYi7dIxHN9yz+hkTlJrZ1i5fuMQf4G8h/VU5l6ZSIjXD3I6b/tPye0QhVZVaTLm/y6Y+L1y83MQg4pvcDpB0G5q9Ub/01f4LHHMsvgN/hvTTgLUg0kUCB4Y9deNQ=',s:[0x072d80e02a,0x2846cf7a46],}})();</script></body>

[pine monolith]

true

[fierce arrow]

Oh i did not see that

[midnight wind]

@pine monolith where did you get that file?

it looks to be CloudFlare injected js

it's apparently used to fight bots

[pine monolith]

the js was in this file

oh that is nice

[fierce arrow]

Yeah I didnt catch it I was not paying too much attention

[pine monolith]

then i will put it back in my code

[midnight wind]

where did you get it from I mean

[plush valley]

It is used to refresh the cache

[midnight wind]

like where did you have the js from

because like it's useless on localhost

[midnight wind]

oh huh

[plush valley]

And its also used for optimization of the JS

[midnight wind]

I found it here https://community.cloudflare.com/t/cf-injected-inline-javascript-conflicts-with-content-security-policy/240781/3

[pine monolith]

it was in the code vesiry send

[plush valley]

That shouldnt be in there unless you use CF

[pine monolith]

oh lol

[fierce arrow]

I did not add it

[pine monolith]

oh

i didn't too

[midnight wind]

it was in here

[pine monolith]

wut

i dont see it

[fierce arrow]

i dont see it there either

[fierce arrow]

Could it have possibly been added when downloading the file through discord?

[pine monolith]

maybe

[plush valley]

oh that would be funny

[midnight wind]

that's prob what happened

[midnight wind]

I don't get file preview

so I downloaded it

[plush valley]

I do get it

[fierce arrow]

I think its likely a discord thing

[pine monolith]

yes dicord does have something with html i know that because if you put a link between <> these things embeds dont load

[pine monolith]

yes i think that too

[plush valley]

You added it on accident.

[fierce arrow]

thats after I downloaded it through discord

the original was this one

[fierce arrow]

original pre discord downloads

[midnight wind]

discord prob added it

lol

[fierce arrow]

Wonder why

[plush valley]

HAHAH

Discord is fucking up

[devout iris]

He hacking

Don't hack my pc please thanks

[midnight wind]

is it discord's config or cf's fault you think?

[plush valley]

Its adding it to every HTML file in the Cache and Discord didnt Blacklist the uploaded files

[midnight wind]

ah discord

[plush valley]

So the CF Scanner just assumes you are rendering the HTML straight from discord as if its part of discord

WOOOW

What fucking traaaaaashhhhhhhh

[fierce arrow]

What exactly is the signifigance of it

[plush valley]

Nothing, other than it shows how bad Discord is developed

brb submitting bug report 😐

[fierce arrow]

lol

[pine monolith]

lol

[devout iris]

I coded minecraft twitchspawn myself am I a developer now?

[pine monolith]

yes i think so

[midnight wind]

does discord actually listen?

[devout iris]

Great

[fierce arrow]

Id assume they would with certain complaints

[plush valley]

No, not normally, but I know a few people who can get on their nerves and get shit fixed

One of those people is a Mod/Admin of this Discord Server too

[devout iris]

My man is friends with a ltt helper

🙏 🙏

[fierce arrow]

Ive downloaded these sorts of files through discord in the past without the issue

[plush valley]

Acquaintances, I piss him off quite often

[fierce arrow]

maybe it was something that was introduced with an update

[plush valley]

They made changes.

Overlooked something and this is the result

[fierce arrow]

someone dun goofed

[plush valley]

Everyone who was relevant and worth a damn @ Discord has left

After the last bit of internal drama the last bit of the original team sought out better pastures

[midnight wind]

discord's still loosing money right?

[plush valley]

Now its mostly marketing, support, and developers pushed by leadership to pack in more features instead of focusing on the core

[plush valley]

Hemorrhaging it

They are positioning themselves to be sold but no one wants this piece of shit

[fierce arrow]

I feel like discord prioritizes workplace diversity over actual production quality maybe? I know bungie is like that now.

[plush valley]

Even Microsoft said "lol, debts? no"

[plush valley]

They prioritize marketability and PR Fronts like "Diversity" over actual core production quality

[fierce arrow]

oh ok I was close but not on the money lol

New features are nice and all but not if they come at the expense of the integrity of their service

[supple hull]

Alright hol’d up. How does one prioritize diversity over production quality?

[plush valley]

Hire based on skin color not skill.

Or... hire based on "pronouns"

(yes literally)

[fierce arrow]

Workplace diversity is good dont get me wrong but people should be hired based on their ABILITIES alone

[supple hull]

Well, I thought I was actually going have to work to get you to express the bigotry

[plush valley]

Education Diversity is the Answer, not Employer Affirmed Action

[plush valley]

I tell it like it is

Love me or hate me for it, it is what it is

Dont like the truth, change the facts that make the truth.

[supple hull]

As a certified white guy (been one for my entire life) and a bit too old to be woke, tech is a boy’s club and I’ve witnessed it first hand.

Specifically a white guy frat party

[plush valley]

They currently have something like 20-30% LGBTQ Employer Base and a bunch of furries

Most are marketing and support

[supple hull]

That seems like a claim that needs to be backed up. I don’t know anything about discord but usually diversity forces employers to take a hard look at people that otherwise be passed up. We have been built biases that we can’t always see for ourselves and it’s meant to be a stopgap against it.

If anything is striving to be more egalitarian based on merit than scoring points for…. Some reason

[plush valley]

They were proud to announce it at a Game Con a year + change ago

[fierce arrow]

I just think that employers should hire based on the qualifications and skills of the applicants

alone

[supple hull]

If they did we wouldn’t need it

[plush valley]

I agree but... were living in a polarized world

Its all about looks to make the bottom $

I honestly dont care, I just want quality.

Hire whomever based on whatever you want, just make sure the baselines are met

[supple hull]

If society also gave every a fairer shake we wouldn’t need it. Diversity training can go amuck and alienate, and become self parody but at its core is a solution to a real problem.

[plush valley]

Its honestly headache inducing how much this shit is focused on

[midnight wind]

yep

[plush valley]

Truth

The real problem is Education Quality is segregated based on Geo-Localized Income (Taxes pay for the System, More taxes/$.. more quality) and echos from when Banks used to refuse loans to those of minorities for housing and stuff still affect us today.

Question is: how do you undo the damage?

[supple hull]

Anyhow I’m not gonna convince you guys through a discord chat and I don’t think a long debate will be productive but just feel like when people blame everything on diversity training needs to be checked a bit. My gf is a non practicing lawyer who works in HR with labor law in manufacturing. The need for diversity training is real, especially in a place like that. Stories of workplace issues make me realize how insulated I am from blue collar work.

[plush valley]

No need to convince us, its agreeable

[supple hull]

In tech it ends up in a place sometimes self parody though.

[plush valley]

Tbh, tech is expensive to get into

And its sort of a "Upper Class Skill/Hobby" thanks to its economic barrier.

[midnight wind]

gotta have a computer, really

internet

[supple hull]

Yep, I grew up solidly middle class, dad is a farmer of all things but it was enough that I had a computer as kid

[plush valley]

I grew up in a swamp

Hunting Ducks and Rabbit for dinner

Then one day.... I got a hand-me-down laptop and tore it apart

that set the ball in motion

I am wholefully grateful and appreciative of the resources and material I was given that helped push me on.

I recognize that I am lucky for it and dont take it for granted

[supple hull]

Can’t say I had that since middle class.

Hand me down computers weren’t much of a thing in the 1990s and I didn’t have an internet connection until 1997, so early HS for me.

[plush valley]

I was born in 1996 so I grew up at the same rate and parallel to the .com boom

Timing did play a huge part in it

[supple hull]

Tech both harder and easier to break into now that it’s more formalized and varied.

[plush valley]

its so entrenched in daily operations

[midnight wind]

I got into tech I think with wanting to get a better gpu

[plush valley]

you know what I find funny?
You gotta have Top Secret Clearance to mess with missiles, but messing with the backbone that makes the world run (The core internet pipelines/cables)..... just need a resume... and you can do wayyyyyyyyy more damage.

A big fat gaping hole

[midnight wind]

then I built a pc eventually

just always been a tinkerer

[midnight wind]

true

kinda insane thinking about it

[plush valley]

Imagine if you had access to 2/3rds of the root DNS Servers

[midnight wind]

does the US gov have it's own cables, just for them? I would be surprised if they don't

[plush valley]

You would have access to release a message to the entire world that it would have to look at... and depending on what you say.... you could take it.

[supple hull]

Right now the pain point for me is in stage 3 of 4 in an interview process and I have a take home project and so I need bone up on cypress

[plush valley]

Yes, DoD Does

They run it with Homeland Security and Canadian "Shared Services Canada"

Its all dark fiber interlinks to make the GovNet to keep confidential and classified data off the internet

There is also darkfiber links to the 5-eyes nations to share confidential data

But guess who installs those?

[midnight wind]

China?

[plush valley]

The same contractors installing every other fiber link

You dont need a background check to do the physical work

Or the stand-up administration before handoff

We protect our weapons tech... but the one thing running the planet? Nahhhhhhhhh cheapest bidder.

Largest case of tunnel vision ive ever seen thats been running true for 30 years

And you dont need to "hack" anything, just give them a resume and they give you a key to the front fucking door

One day someone is gonna figure this out and play the entire planet as a fool

[wind horizon]

It's true most of the time we use frameworks, but knowing these building blocks is essential to being a good web dev. You'll still spend tones of time writing html, css, and JS as a web dev. You just won't often be doing it in this static way.

[midnight wind]

yep

[wind horizon]

re the whole getting into tech thing I feel that. I grew up poor in a middle of nowhere, now that I have "made it" in tech I keep thinking it'd be nice to try and engage with people near end of high school / early college and help them try out some IT skills and if they enjoy it help them get skills and connections to get going.

The majority of my co-workers at jobs have always been from middle class or better families, many often have no student loans and their parents paid for their college. I'm happy for them, but it also makes me sad when I see them not appreciate what they have.

The problem I have run into is how many people come to things like this acting like they already know everything or very entitled. It's hard to help people like that.

Need like a filtering process I guess. 🤔

[trail remnant]

@supple hull speaks the truth. There's some really bad sexism and racism in our industry. Even after they've made it past the barrier of acquiring a CS degree, women burn out at over twice the rate of men in CS fields. Computers aren't that different from other STEM fields. We just have way more sexism.

Fixing the educational pipeline is important, but it will have negligible overall impact if workplace sexism isn't dealt with.

[silk eagle]

😔

[wind horizon]

We need strong top down messages that it wont be tolerated. The real change happens culturally on our individual levels, but we need backing from top down that we can weed out these people.

Ingenious a holes shouldn't be so common in our field. That's what hiring only on abilities / skills gets you, smart a holes that passed technical challenges but should have been failed for communication and personality reasons.

[silk eagle]

hire on trust not based on how many obscure algorithms someone can remember and write in a google doc

[trail remnant]

Unfortunately, leadership at top tech companies tends to be sheltered upper class white men, with zero understanding of the realistic nature of bigotry. Examples like Activison/Blizzard are surprisingly common, where the white men in power do horrible things while pretending to help or even care.

[wind horizon]

I have worked under minority CEOs and teams based in other countries and still had similar issues, I don't think simple diversity hiring will solve the problem. We need to focus on the type of people we are hiring.

[trail remnant]

There's this hilariously ironic and painfully sad thing that happens where "diverse" companies can end up just as bigoted as the companies they claim to hate. Bigotry begets bigotry. Hate brings more hate. Often times "diverse" companies end up learning policies and procedures of management and hiring from the examples around them, which are mostly bigoted. So they end up repeating the same general pattern but with a different clique of people.

You can't fix a problem originating from hate and ignorance without compassion and education. And American style companies are inherently opposed to that.

[wind horizon]

Yeah I agree, although I wouldn't leave that on "American" companies. The worst group I ever worked for wasn't American. Lol

I think its a problem all over the world, just each country has different struggles.

[trail remnant]

America exports culture everywhere.

[wind horizon]

I don't want to point fingers at any countries / cultures, since it's not a valid excuse imo. When I work with groups from other countries there are some countries / parts of the country far far worse.

Doesn't excuse our issues, but I think it's that we need to be upset at the core issue not a specific countries culture.

No culture, minority status, etc should exempt someone from being called out in their shit. Includes rich white dudes and poor minorities alike. Being an a hole is an a hole no matter who you are. Haha

[trail remnant]

America is one of the only countries in the world where companies have as much power, if not more, than the government.
I say "American style" companies, because even though Brittan started the idea of crazy powerful companies, America is the largest nation that still does that, and nearly every other example you'll find is modeled after America and the American system that allows and encourages powerful companies to exist.

[wind horizon]

Hmm idk if company power is the issue, since even if you aren't a powerful company you can still be a bigot.

I mean there are deff lots of discussions around sizes and power of companies for sure.

[trail remnant]

Being an a hole is an a hole no matter who you are.
While this is definitely true, this is a dangerous argument to hold. This type of rhetoric is often abused by malicious actors to defend their own abuse.

[wind horizon]

How do you use that as a defense, defend yourself as an a hole? 😅

[acoustic roost]

anyone know how does PayByBandwidth on alibaba cloud works?

[trail remnant]

Have you looked at their API documentation?

[acoustic roost]

is it 1 Mbps per each outbound request ?

[acoustic roost]

yes I got a pdf file but not quite sure

https://docs-aliyun.cn-hangzhou.oss.aliyun-inc.com/pdf/cdn-billing-intl-en-2016-07-15.pdf

[trail remnant]

Nah, they act like jerks, then when someone calls them out, they blame the other person for being rude. It's a classic jerk defense strategy.
The other classic strategy is "Schrodinger's D-bag".

[trail remnant]

Oh, awesome. You've done your research.
It looks like a tiered pay structure based on usage. What part about the documentation is confusing?

[wind horizon]

Oh never heard that, when ppl are like that I just cut them out off my life. No point in being around toxic ppl. Lol

But I can see someone trying to argue that, I meant more so there is no excuse for acting like that. I'd even include someone else acting like that to you.

[trail remnant]

Hmmm. Check page #1 (first page after the title page).
It explains how the pricing structure works.

[wind horizon]

""+PayByBandwidth" is based on the maximum bandwidth your CDN service has consumed (in Mbps) for the current day

[trail remnant]

Page #2 provides specific prices for PayByBandwidth, and page #3 provides examples of how the price is calculated.

Basically, do you want flat rate pricing or hourly billing.
For contractors, flat rate billing usually benefits everyone. But for bandwidth, that depends on your website's usage patterns.

[acoustic roost]

I'm still confused lol

ok let's say I have 8TB of traffic a day

how much they will charged me?

[trail remnant]

Yeah, cutting those people out of your life is the healthy thing to do. But the problem with that is they don't change, and they go on to hurt more people.
However, trying to force people to change is impossible. People can only change if they want to change. So we run into the problem of having to punitively punish people for "bad" actions. The only problem is that once bad actors realize that they're punished by some powerful system, someone very evil and very smart eventually comes along and breaks the system that was supposed to keep them out. (See Venezuela's democratically elected dictator)

[trail remnant]

This depends. Allow me to illustrate with some sloppy MS Paint graphs

[acoustic roost]

Thank youu

[wind horizon]

Yup, we have to provide a chance for them to admit the fault and be willing to forgive people. Forgiveness doesn’t me 0 repercussions, but does mean we don’t hold it over them. I think also need to be willing to accept someone has changed over years and not forever say they are a bad person.

However if someone doesn’t do one of those things I see no reason to keep them around my life.

I do think minor disagreements are silly to take to that level, I’m talking more so a serious issue / someone openly being a bad actor.

[trail remnant]

For PayByBandwidth, the blue and red graphs will cost you different amounts, even if the TOTAL data sent in the day is 8TB.
In this case, the "spiky" blue graph will cost you almost TWICE as much as the flat red graph. PayByBandwidth costs you based on your PEAK bandwidth. (important documentation pictured)
PayByUsage will cost you the same for both graphs, since the total amount is 8TB.

[acoustic roost]

amazing

[trail remnant]

Sloppy MS Paint graphs save the day again!

[wind horizon]

Peak bandwidth seems like an unfair billing method, I prefer simple metered bandwidth / pay per gig etc.

[trail remnant]

My most useful skill.

[trail remnant]

Yes and No. They probably group VMs based on bandwidth, and have a different system for lumping VMs based on usage. With a bandwidth method, you can easily predict and scale out infrastructure. With usage methods, the spikes in demand can make infrastructure management very difficult, and require extra capacity.

The two billing methods likely exist because some people need consistency with billing, and it simplifies infrastructure management. (or at least moves costs to the more expensive system)

[trail remnant]

Absolutely. I do believe that people can change, and I believe in forgiveness. But some people don't want to change bad habits. I'm specifically talking about those people. They're happy with who they are, which is a pretty dangerous situation for everyone else.

[silk eagle]

and then someone "stress tests" your website and your peak bandwidth ends up costing you 10x more

[wind horizon]

Hmm maybe at large scale, but didn’t this go as low as 500Mbps? You could easily spike that on a big file and then be flat all day.

[trail remnant]

If they stress test your website, you'll pay for it either way.

[wind horizon]

Right this is like a new attack, find ppl on peak bandwidth plans and spike their usage with a script on every billing cycle. 😂

[trail remnant]

You can meter your own connection on the server side, to make sure you don't blow past your bandwidth limitations. That's probably the right use case for those types of servers. Or just use a CDN to distribute large files. That's what they're there for anyways.

[silk eagle]

CDNs are fun, hosting sites off of a home network has never been easier

[trail remnant]

Hosting websites as static files is the best.

[wind horizon]

Yeah for sure large files should be on a cdn.

[silk eagle]

big money making idea here guys, PayByBandwidth CDN

[trail remnant]

The trick is, the larger your server, the more it makes sense to just run gigabit fiber to the server and not fuss with infrastructure management. So for larger servers, it's probably MUCH cheaper to run at high volumes. It's also rated by day, so it could end up saving you if your website has peak and off days. (weekends, work days, etc.)

[wind horizon]

Just feels very unfair / easy way to run up someone’s bill at low cost. Just launch a cheap 5 min attack to blast traffic to rack up a bill.

Then what do they do, limit total bandwidth and end up with a less scalable app? Just sounds like a headache.

But if your app has such little usage just put it on one of the many free tiers from cloud providers. They already bill on usage and will scale without a worry of bandwidth peak. 😅

Just feels like a weird way to bill.

[trail remnant]

If you're worried about a cheap attack costing you money, paying by bandwidth is probably the wrong choice for you.

[silk eagle]

self host supremacy

[trail remnant]

You're likely paying by bandwidth if your website is large enough that you're consistently using huge amounts of bandwidth and you need to buy in bulk.

[silk eagle]

wait you technically pay for bandwidth for a home network ive been tricked

[trail remnant]

Bandwidth is how internet is sold.

So if you're not paying for bandwidth, someone is doing extra work to make that possible.

[wind horizon]

No need to buy in bulk, they just get a discount when you do. So you can scale up fast for peaks and not worry in most cloud deploys, but with peak bandwidth that peak just messed up your entire cycle bill.

1gb/s for say 10mins vs paying just for the total bandwidth usage.

[trail remnant]

If your loads are highly spiky, or very small, that extra cost is probably worth the overall savings and reduced risks.
If your loads are huge, or overall flat (global companies) then it probably makes sense to skip the middleman and just pay for the bandwidth.

[wind horizon]

Yeah bandwidth is always billed, just how it’s billed varies. Haha

Paying your internet bill aka paying your flat rate bandwidth bill. lol

[trail remnant]

The trick is, if you're in the right area, fiber internet is like, 1/100th the cost per Mbps compared with cable.

It turns out that the fixed costs of laying physical wires and preparing infrastructure is large compared to the operating costs of slightly better equipment to support huge bandwidth.
So in most cases, it makes sense to buy in bulk, if you will ever need that much bandwidth.

[wind horizon]

Right I was talking in cloud, where the infra is already done. So buying bulk is just getting discounts on pre buying resources, not actually paying for new underlining infra. Yes that money finances more infra, buts it’s abstracted.

[trail remnant]

Be careful of leaky abstractions.

So I've been trying to run the numbers, and it's literally a tiered cost structure. It's like the tax structure.
The first X amount is expensive, the next Y amount is slightly cheaper, then the final Z amount is the budget bulk discount.
Your total cost is (X * xCost) + (Y * yCost) + (Z * zCost)

[wind horizon]

Right that’s common the more you use the cheaper per unit, but that’s diff from true bulk buying where you are tied to projecting your usage and then losing money if you over estimate.

[trail remnant]

But you don't pre-buy. You pay based on measured usage.

[wind horizon]

Right, that’s not bulk buying imo. I’d consider bulk buying like paying for the discounted reserved instances. Where if you use it or not you paid, but you got a discount rate.

[trail remnant]

Ah, your definition of "bulk discount" is different than mine.

[wind horizon]

Paying for usage on a tiered system is just regular billing / usage. Nothing too special / diff, just getting discount for being a big customer.

[trail remnant]

Doesn't that mean that you're getting a discount for the size of your business?

Sounds like a discount for bulk orders.

Economies of scale and everything.

[wind horizon]

Right but I think a bulk order is something you purchased a large amount in advance, metered after the fact.

So like a reserved instance is cheaper on the cloud, but you are committed to paying for the full usage of it even if you don’t use it. So you can reserve say 70% of your compute at a discount and leave the last 30% to, metered billing to avoid buying too much.

Although there is a middle ground I guess…

[trail remnant]

So you're not talking about scale, you're talking about ordering vs billing.

[wind horizon]

You can bulk buy cloud credits often at a discount

Not tied to a resource

[trail remnant]

So what do you call discounts for high usage?

[wind horizon]

Discounts

[trail remnant]

Some places charge you more for higher usage, like your power company.

[wind horizon]

Nah my power charges less for more, but yeah I know what you mean.

[trail remnant]

I know some utility companies charge more for higher residential usage, to try and keep demand flat and predictable.

But that definitely depends.

[wind horizon]

Yeah I have seen a lot of like weekends and night discount things.

[trail remnant]

Cambridge dictionary says a "discount" is just a reduction in price. So your definition is missing the component of scale.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/discount

[wind horizon]

I don’t think the scale matters

[trail remnant]

Like, a discount for using power in the evenings is definitely a discount. How much you use isn't what determines the pricing.

[wind horizon]

Since I can burn mass amounts of X and not scale and still get the discount

[silk eagle]

example:
here for 1000 down 100 up for cable internet it's $200/month
for 1000 down/1000 up fiber it's $60/month

[wind horizon]

Unless you are saying scale as I’m usage scale, not scale as in scale of the system?

[trail remnant]

Yeah, evening discounts are discounts. But "bulk discount" is pricing that becomes cheaper based on usage.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bulk-discount

Classic programmers. Getting nerd sniped discussing irrelevant details.

Especially when the real problem was solved a long time ago.

[wind horizon]

I guess both can be a bulk discount, but I don’t think of it as a bulk discount since that’s then normal pricing schedule. While am upfront large order, bulk, is a special discount for a large order.

The ,entered is more like oh you hit this usage level so this is your price per usage.

[trail remnant]

But like, the "normal" pricing structure has a bulk discount built in.

[wind horizon]

Haha I guess, just with pay per usage and multiple tiers it feels more like a price group more so than discount to me.

But that's probably just my consumer brain being brainwashed by big business to think of discounts as extra special pricing. Haha

[trail remnant]

All pricing is consumer manipulation.

If you're pricing things without thinking about how to manipulate the consumer, you're leaving money on the table.

[wind horizon]

Pay per usage - usually scales with usage, only pay for what you use though.

Reserved / pre purchase - usually scales with usage, but with an additional discount. However you have to pay full amount.

[trail remnant]

Now, I don't think that's necessarily the best way to run a business, but it's a true statement.

So like, discounts for reserved pricing would be different. A bulk discount would be "reserve X today and get Y% off!" sort of thing.

Which companies also do.

[wind horizon]

Yeah before I became a dev I went to college for business. I remeber all the marketing classes we had todo these case studies and discuss stories of companies just simply rebranding products and slapping on premium pricing and it worked made people think the product was now better.

There was tones of cases of companies having 2 lines, a cheap and premium and the product being nearly identical just different branding and price. Lol

[trail remnant]

Yup!

[wind horizon]

Just like running sales, can't remeber what it was called but there was some name they taught us for teaching a consumer to expect sales.

There is this risk if you run sales too often consumers will often wait for a sale, but if you don't run sales often they'll buy full price normally and when you run a sale they'll go nuts.

[trail remnant]

The fundamental principle of economics is "people are rational self-interested actors", until three paragraphs later, when you realize that people are a lot less smart than you give them credit for, and most of economics is trying to figure out how to pull a scam on someone, or trying to ascribe logical systematic structure to irrational and inconsistent humans.

[trail remnant]

JC Pennies found that out the hard way. New tech CEO walks into a consumer retail business and doesn't understand consumer psychology or retail pricing schemes, and he runs the company into the ground in like 2 years.

[wind horizon]

This is why product teams at most companies are often a pain imo, they know this and focus on gimmicks and tricking customers and less on innovation.

As a dev I want to be creative and innovative, as product they want to drive value. Haha

[trail remnant]

Lots of millennial/tech news covered his business changes, and he got a lot of good press at the time. But guess who didn't go to malls or shop at JC Pennies? The same millennials he was marketing towards.

"Engineering" has to work with the "Business". If you don't, you get terrible companies. Give too much power to one side, and your company ends up running into the ground.

[wind horizon]

Agreed, I just feel like often it tips into business side too much and why innovation at big companies is flat. They end up acquiring smaller companies that are innovating.

[trail remnant]

Apple worked because Steve Jobs was the social/business brains, and Steve Wozniak was the technical brains. Without Woz, Apple never would have worked. Without Steve, Apple nearly ran themselves out of business in the 90s.

[wind horizon]

Oh is that what happened? I didn't read anything about it, I'll have to Google it haha.

[trail remnant]

Microsoft worked because Bill Gates understands technology and business. There were plenty of smarter technology people around that time. But they never went anywhere, while Gates walked away with half the technology industry.

[trail remnant]

The whole JC Pennies situation is a great case study into bad management, and why statistically, the best companies promote from within.

[wind horizon]

Yeah I feel like tech has turned into M&A now with revolving doors. Most places I go avg is 1-3 year tenure.

I kind of miss working at a startup, everyone was so excited and working on a common goal pushing the product.

[trail remnant]

There's a lot of stuff written about JC Pennies, but this article seems to be a great place to start: https://observer.com/2019/06/ron-johnscon-jc-penney-retail-guru/

Ultimately, one of the biggest failings was not understanding the company, the consumers, or consumer retail as well as he thought he did.
The change from constant sale pricing to "fair and square" pricing misunderstood that people aren't rational actors, and when you aren't selling Apple's premium luxury brand, you can't afford to have one constant price that never changes. The final nail in the coffin was trying a national rollout without even testing that his ideas worked for lower class high-competition consumer retail.

[wind horizon]

Ouch

[trail remnant]

This quote summarizes the situation:

Sixteen months after becoming CEO, Johnson was fired by the same board that had hailed him as a savior of the company.

It's still not as bad as the single email that killed circuit city, but it got WAY more publicity, so the failure was talked about way more.

[wind horizon]

I think pricing transparency like that only works if your industry is known for being bad actors. For example I knew some used car dealerships and such that blew up, because they didn't negotiate at all they just gave you their pri e straight. Esp younger people seemed to flock to it feeling relieved by easy pricing.

But that worked because that industry is known and viewed badly for those practices.

[trail remnant]

See, younger people buy lots of cars, especially when they have a streamlined selling experience.

Younger people don't buy lots of clothing from malls.

That's one of the key differences. Malls are mostly populated by teenagers who shop at hip and trendy stores, and middle aged people who either don't care about price and shop at expensive shops, or they care about price, and they mostly shop sales.

[wind horizon]

Right, JC would need a huge campaign probably to even pickup up the yound market before pushing something so radical. Lol

Prob should have tried making a new brand store that target those audiences and limited openings to test it.

[trail remnant]

The new JC Pennies brand wasn't hitting any of those markets well. Trying to create a "Millennial mall experience" is just doomed to fail.

[wind horizon]

But dreaming big and making bold statements is what people praise right now. It's like the Elon effect. 😆

[trail remnant]

Honestly? if you want to make a Millennial mall store, it should be selling baby and young child stuff at reasonable prices. That's what Millennials are shopping for right now. Family raising products.

[wind horizon]

That's true ppl need to remeber millennials are now beyond the youth stage and more so in mid life.

I mean I have no kids and such, but like 90% of everyone I grew up with have kids now and doing normal stuff ppl like that do. Haha

I don't live in a tech hub and sometimes I think I should move to one, because I don't really do the normal family life haha.

But then I run into all the huge egos and I'm like, hmm maybe not. Lol

[trail remnant]

Yeah, tech hubs tend to propagate ego problems. (See Google)

[wind horizon]

Plus making big tech pay in a none tech city the check goes really fast. I mean I make about 20% less than my counterparts in the bay, but their houses also cost like 500% more. 😅

[trail remnant]

On the topic of badly run companies, I've got some of the last two articles from 2007-2008 that explain the complete management failure of circuit city.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2007/3/28/317034/-
https://medium.com/swlh/what-to-learn-from-jc-penneys-failures-f85d13d930dc
Most of the other articles are dead links, but those two paint a pretty good picture. From $30 in stock to $0.10 in just under 2 years. A company demolition speedrun, based on bad management decisions.

[wind horizon]

I grew up middle of nowhere, by time I moved to a city they had pretty much collapsed already. So I never shopped at one. Lol

[trail remnant]

They fired the highest paid employees, to replace them with lower paid employees.
On the surface, it doesn't seem like that bad of a decision. Until you realize that their sales people were paid based on commissions, so they actually fired the best people making the company the most money.

Surprise surprise, when you fire your best employees, they find new jobs quickly, and they don't want to come back to a company that increased CEO pay while firing them.

Loyalty work both ways.

[wind horizon]

Firing on pay never works well, need to look at the value they provide vs their pay. Sometimes a high value employee is truly worth giving up 3 lower paid employees to keep. Sucks but just the way it can be.

It can often be the other way though where you need numbers vs talent, esp in retail.

[supple hull]

Playing with Cypress for my first time and it's pretty straight forward

[trail remnant]

Noice

[wind horizon]

At an old company during rough times CEO took like 90% pay cut that year to help keep others on. I was really proud of that, but then I looked up his pay and saw he was making like over $30M. So even at 10% pay he was making several mill, I was like wait you are still making plenty. 😅😅

I mean still cool he'd give up that much money to help keep others on, but it's just less surprising when that still means taking home millions. Lol

[wind horizon]

Cypress is sweet. Webdriver is cool too. Very similar, but cypress GUI tool is nice.

Integration tests are great, too many places rely on functional tests and mocking everything. One thing goes wrong and all those functional tests suddenly mean nothing even though they "passed" with mocks. 😆

[supple hull]

I used Selenium really briefly on a project and kinda felt like it was annoying, Cypress solves a lot of my grievances. I end up rarely writing tests because I get often stuck on quick churn projects or CMSy things. Cypress seems perfect for what I want.

[supple hull]

Dude.

[wind horizon]

Ah yeah that sucks

Code churn is just ew. 😆

[supple hull]

I worked on a massive project, our team was brought into it. Massive react app with 50 devs. It was for car dealerships. They had so many functional tests but they didn't really prove anything other than the tests worked.

[trail remnant]

Churn is the worst

[supple hull]

welcome to working for an agency

[wind horizon]

Yeah functional tests are great for reusable components and you are simply testing if they implement it right it works right. But when you start dealing with APIs and such integration tests are so much nicer, esp when you are trying to run these tests to verify your good to go prod. Functional tests are no good for that.

[supple hull]

Thank god our company was just trying to fill some dev time as the react app was god awful. I tried to pitch them styled-components. Apparently there were sections of the project that did. It was a mess. Inline CSS. Import hell. Busted style guide.

[wind horizon]

Hahaha

[supple hull]

It was the classic throwing more devs at problem to get a product done. Everyone was so defeated at that company.

[wind horizon]

I have a friend that works on an app with styled, scss, and css modules, TS, and Flow. He asked me for help and I was like O.O

It was like they just kept trying new things nwhen they came out. Haha

[supple hull]

The systems they integrated were insane though, they had like a team dedicated to printing. They also had to integrate with these truly old 1970s and early 80s databases that somewhere were still being used at dealerships.

[wind horizon]

Hahaha

[supple hull]

They actually had some greybeard guys who were jesus level database engineers but the systems were not designed to be web interfaced.

They had a solid API from what I could tell to print various esoteric forms and stuff.

[wind horizon]

I once was asked to build a new app based on some data from an old app. But they didn't want to make an api, instead they sent me the DB credentials and told me to just read and write to the same DB.... I was like this is a disaster waiting to happen, what happens then they making a breaking change and then blame my code. Haha

[wind horizon]

There are some DBAs I have met that I was like draw drop and this shit they did so fast and efficient.

Meeting any technical ppl that are like near top of their specific field is cool.

Uh oh did battle ship kill your msg? Haha

[supple hull]

ha ha, the bot nuked my post for caps

Capslock is cruise control for cool lmg warship

[silk eagle]

gotta copy a message before you send it 100% of the time here

[wind horizon]

YOU CAN'T CONTROL ME LTT!!!!

[supple hull]

At first I thought it was like "you can't joke about doing deploys over FTP"

[wind horizon]

Hmm it worked. 🤔

[supple hull]

Weird

The filter was triggered by the following:
max caps limit reached (93% total)
"WE DO OUR CODE DEPLOYS ON SFTP. BOB JUST GOT US SSH KEYS"

Apparently it has to be long enough?

[midnight wind]

I try to do things the right way and I then see stories of this of mess

[wind horizon]

Haha did it

[lament cave]

I ordered a server that was supposed to have 4tb storage but I guess they provisioned the wrong drives and I end up with 12tb total lol

[supple hull]

I hate it when I get more storage. That's the worst.

[wind horizon]

The funniest part is companies stuck in the old ways of doing things mock people doing it modern ways, meanwhile they take like a day to deploy a new app and fumble all along the way. Lol

[lament cave]

haha, but the only thing I’m worried about is if they charge me for the extra capacity…

[wind horizon]

Just check the bill?

[lament cave]

it says normal price but that was initial payment

[supple hull]

oh wow, LMG war ship just gave me a warning for filter evasion

All for talking about 💩

[trail remnant]

The filter is busted

Doesn't allow LMGTFY

[supple hull]

It's interesting as the few times warship has hit me its been for odd ball ones that aren't loaded.

[wind horizon]

Such an odd thing to ban, I can say shit but not 💩

Guessing they use some kind of filter list and just marked cursing as allowed?

[supple hull]

Another user let me know that there's a back story. Some users find certain words very offputting.

I guess that's one of them.

[wind horizon]

How long before you think sensor bots start employing ML to determine if phrases sound hostile / hateful and apply censors beyond simple words. 🤔

Sure some places already doing it, but wondering if / when it'll be mainstream.

[supple hull]

I'd assume there's some ML bots doing that already in certain places.

[wind horizon]

I guess probably once the cost of compute and processing needs are low enough that it's not really a cost to analyze every message context. Haha