#development

1 messages · Page 82 of 1

trail remnant
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If you're new, I think the best thing to do is lead by example. If there's something small that you can do to improve things, then just do it.

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Man do I hate the fake "inclusion" messages from the top. It's all fake positivity and lies to boost profits.
If you really cared, you'd be taking a salary cut to force pay matching across the company.

wind horizon
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Yeah slowly learning them all better. If you know them well enough it's easier todo remote events.

When you don't know what people like it's hard to orginze stuff.

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Haha I meant inclusion as in they don't tolerate discriminatory actions / speech etc.

trail remnant
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If they can't put their money where their mouth is, it's all empty talk.

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That's the kind of company I'm aiming to work for in a decade.

wind horizon
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I worked some place that an employee told me the company was very opposed to sharing salary.

I told them the bureau of labor and multiple court cases have stated they can't prevent you from doi g it off the clock.

I then proceeded to tell everyone my salary, because clearly the company had an issue that I need to help fix. 😆😆

I never did get in trouble. 🤷‍♂️

trail remnant
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Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that lets you understand a company isn't really out for your best interests.

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If they aren't doing salary sharing and providing transparency in pay, then everything else is in service of making more money at the expense of everyone not at the top.

wind horizon
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Says $173k to live in bay without distress with 3 kids. I wonder if that's with spouse working too or not?

I honestly have no idea on cost of the bay, but remeber ppl telling me a house costing over a mil. Lol

trail remnant
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They've got hybrid work. So some of the jobs are remote.

hollow basalt
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company was very opposed to sharing salary.
pretty much all of the companies i've been to

trail remnant
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Which tells you a lot about the true company culture.

hollow basalt
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which tells me i need to migrate

trail remnant
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Exactly.

hollow basalt
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i'm asian

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so the rates are ehhhhhh

wind horizon
hollow basalt
trail remnant
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Honestly, if companies think that discriminating will make them more money, they'll do it. But they'll do it behind closed doors, because the public message needs to be a message of inclusion so they don't get bad press.

hollow basalt
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i just yoloed out of my way of the old company

silk eagle
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hey but do they at least have a fun twitter account that they tweet at other companies to talk about fast food and share emotional support with?

hollow basalt
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i'm already at the point of: if we are not agreeing. i'm leaving

trail remnant
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Fun Twitter accounts! Where they let an unpaid intern goof off on company time to give themselves a hip and trendy image!

silk eagle
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obviously a company talking about square burgers and pringles on twitter cant have any twisted morals going on behind the scenes

hollow basalt
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if they have twitter, they are morally right

trail remnant
hollow basalt
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my current one, offered like 40% increase

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so now i'm the youngest in the team

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the other associates are 2yrs older than me

wind horizon
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I'm finally old enough I'm often not the you gest on the team. Feels... Weird... Haha

For the longest time I was always the youngest dev. Now when we get like interns and stuff it's like, wow I'm the older person. Lol

I still am not like the oldest, I'm usually middle of the pack now. Haha

trail remnant
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The process of getting a raise goes something like this:

  1. Ask for a raise, explaining why you deserve it.
  2. If they refuse, then try to agree on a goal (within a few months) that would entitle you to a raise.
  3. If no agreement can be made, go to 6.
  4. If you reach your agreement within the time limit, and you get the raise, go to END.
  5. If you reach your agreement, and do not get a raise, go to 6.
    6: Submit resumes and interview for jobs until you get a raise you're happy with.
    7: Send your new boss a copy of your new salary, along with a 2 week notice explaining that you're leaving because of the pay issue.
    END: Yay! You have a raise! Go celebrate!
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I especially love step 7. It's the most fun step.

hollow basalt
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my story was

trail remnant
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Hopefully your existing job can give you a raise. But usually that's not how things play out.

hollow basalt
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I'm asking what was needed to become a senior dev,yes it's too early,
but basically i am already doing so much for an associate

trail remnant
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So job hopping is often the result. It ends up hurting companies the most.

hollow basalt
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i don't think leading a project counts for the salary of an associate

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🤔

hollow basalt
trail remnant
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Yup.

hollow basalt
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so pretty much I asked them.
Lessen my load, or promote me and give me higher

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😆

trail remnant
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That's why most places typically have a position that's a bit above entry level. Like, a newbie would have 0-2 years experience, a middle dev would have 2-5, a senior would have 4-6, and a lead architect would have like 7+ years

hollow basalt
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but ehh, company is a large enterprise and they can't do this without approval from higher ups

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so job hopping way way easier and faster

trail remnant
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Which is once again, why leaving is the better option.

hollow basalt
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a middle dev would have 2-5
this, I need to be a middle dev

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not an entry level doing what someone with a higher slaary does

trail remnant
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One company called that "senior developer" and another company called it "associate developer" and another called it "developer". Naming is all over the place.

hollow basalt
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said to my manager that I was already on process of hiring from another company. Never looked back

trail remnant
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Honestly though, I think it's a moral responsibility to make any pay-related departure a public event. If you're being underpaid, so are most of the people in your area.

hollow basalt
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😬

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so are most of the people in your area
I do know this. but corona prevents me from migrating

trail remnant
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I mean, your department.

hollow basalt
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oh...

trail remnant
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Like, your coworkers.

hollow basalt
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i thought as a whole

trail remnant
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Nah, there are companies in your area that probably pay well.

hollow basalt
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from what I heard, the company salary is low for associates
but is competitive for seniors

trail remnant
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@wind horizon probably typing up some huge essay.

hollow basalt
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i know work with "mates"

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😆

trail remnant
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lol accents

wind horizon
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Titles are so stupid, I think companies should try and consolidate more into a tier / lvl systems. So much easier to know what a role is across companies that way.

Engineer 1
Engineer 2

Etc. Usually engineer 3 or 4 Is Sr but then one place I worked engineer 3 was staff and there was no Sr title skipped right over it.

trail remnant
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Yeah, levels make so much more sense.

hollow basalt
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yea, level 1 noob vs level 100 god

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much easier

trail remnant
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haha

hollow basalt
wind horizon
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You are considering migrating when covid is over you said? To like another country?

hollow basalt
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yes

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or remote jobs really

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but I want to experience other cultures as well sooo

wind horizon
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That sounds fun, I was planning my first international trip when covid happened.

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Had finally paid off lots of debit and saved up cash for vacation, then shut down. Haha

hollow basalt
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idc about debts rn. I want to travel insteaad of thinking all of these

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😬

silk eagle
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"i dont care about debts rn" i think is how a lot of debts become an issue

wind horizon
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Been there done that, I mean enjoy it while it lasts but just know at some point later you'll prob be like. "wtf did I do" 😅

trail remnant
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The right way to handle debt is to have none of it.

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As a software developer, you probably make enough money to not have to worry about debt, as long as you can manage your finances well.

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If you can't do that, literally go take a class on how to manage your finances.

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It'll be the best financial investment you make in your whole life. Either in time (self learning), or in money (paying for a teacher).

wind horizon
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Well leveraging debit isn't bad if you are smart about it. For example real estate often appreciates faster than the interest on the loan.

trail remnant
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Yes, but 2008 was also a thing.

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Real estate isn't as sure of a bet as people would like you to believe.

wind horizon
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Yeah so don't leave you self in a spot that something like 08 will destroy you. haha

trail remnant
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Also, a mortgage is reasonable. Pretty much everything else is bad debt.

wind horizon
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It's not sure, but it's still very good often.

Never invest money you can't afford to lose

trail remnant
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I mean, the housing market is set up again for another huge fall.

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The big problem was that if you bought a house in 2006, you ended up losing your initial investment AND you suddenly owed more than the house was worth.

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Even a 20% downpayment wasn't enough to cover the drop in housing prices in some areas.

wind horizon
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We will see, I'm too afraid to invest in housing right now. (outside my primary residence) though with how high it is right now

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Right but if it was primary residence even though you lost money you still had a place to live haha

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Unless you leveraged way too much and lost your income oops

trail remnant
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China's real estate market is current in the middle of a Thanatos snap.
That normally would be bad, but they've also invested huge sums of money in real estate outside of China. When things get bad, lots of them will try and liquidate their assets in other countries, driving prices down around the world. BOOM. Another unstable housing market suddenly collapses.

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And by "unstable housing market" I mean literally every housing market in the world.

wind horizon
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How much residential do they own vs commercial I wonder

trail remnant
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And also the financial markets, because they're using housing as a financial asset.

wind horizon
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Right now demand is just too high, lots of the country can't even keep a few months supply. nuts

trail remnant
wind horizon
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I'm surprised there aren't moire laws regulating that

trail remnant
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From January 2015 to August 2016...
a 55 percent increase in only 19 months.

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The government started implementing laws, but they are too little too late.

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And laws that help push housing prices down will only make the impending crash worse. (probably)

wind horizon
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Imo all investors in residential should be regulated.

Sure building and such whatever, but owning residential to like lease and stuff just hurts ppl who need homes.

Let those ppl build complexes to rent, don't let them drive up single family home prices imo.

trail remnant
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a 15 per cent tax on real estate transactions by foreign buyers
That's like, not even enough to do anything, considering you'd still be making a HUGE return on your investment, even with the tax.

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The Chinese market was so obsessed with housing as a form of investment, that a single city implementing laws isn't going to stop it. It'll just drive them to pump housing prices somewhere else.

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But this is far away from development.

wind horizon
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Well I meant on a national lvl not city

trail remnant
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Not sure how close we should stick to the topic

wind horizon
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haha housing in a dev channel

trail remnant
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Yes, but also no.
You think a government will turn down multiple billions of dollars of investment?

wind horizon
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Not that I think they will, but think they should.

But yeah way off topic. lol

trail remnant
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Ah, the classic debate between "should" and "are". One of my favorites in software design.

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Always with the "should", never with the "are".

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If more people spent time working on what they can do, instead of what they should do, I think the world would be a better place.
At the very least, there would be more engineers around, and they're fun people to talk to.

wind horizon
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I switched keyboards and now I'm so slow retraining my hands haha

trail remnant
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I mean, this gets back to one of the classic struggles in engineering. Design vs implementation.
You want things to be perfect, but you only have so much money and time.
Some decisions are hard, so you waste a bunch of time on trying to find the perfect solution, and you never get any solution.
Some implementations are easy, and you ignore them until it's too late and things have gone wrong because you thought you could wait just a bit longer.

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The entire history of programming languages is basically "That language made X, Y, and Z mistakes. We'll avoid them by doing something different!" only for them to make new and more interesting mistakes instead. Rinse and repeat for several generations, and you have modern programming languages with all their features and quirks and flaws.

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Maybe I love programming so much because it's the world's slowest and largest train wreck.

wind horizon
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Yeah I think usually it's better to master the pitfalls than jumping langs since there will just be new ones.

Unless that new lang some how better solves the thing you are trying todo, like switching from a interpreted to compiled when it's needed.

hollow basalt
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jumping langs
truly what separate developers

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some know how to do things
some know how to do around things

silk eagle
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"real estate development"

ember torrent
nocturne galleon
ember torrent
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Dead

nocturne galleon
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HOW DID YOU KNOW?

ember torrent
nocturne galleon
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He’s not throwing a MacBook tho, so he’s not quite nailing it.

ember torrent
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He said roo roo

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Uh, does trying to eat the charger for one count? Well, for a mbp.

nocturne galleon
ember torrent
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It was blocking the entrance to his den.

visual path
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Hey folks, looking at a go application at the moment and seeing that despite serving on non-ssl the application is setting the “secure” flag on cookies. Would anyone know a way to either

a. Enable the secure flag only when reverse proxy is forwarding to the application when using SSL / https and change this accordingly

b. Disable the flag by default and set it in the reverse proxy via the nginx proxy_cookie_flags parameter.

What is considered to be the better option/best practice here?

Project link, with line in concern: https://github.com/autobrr/autobrr/blob/577960576d41c9e2b7b5a44c247ac8ded1b46d89/internal/http/auth.go#L52

GitHub
autobrr/auth.go at 577960576d41c9e2b7b5a44c247ac8ded1b46d89 · autob...

Automation for downloads. Contribute to autobrr/autobrr development by creating an account on GitHub.

plush valley
visual path
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Cheers for the input. I’ll look into this tomorrow.

pseudo lily
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There are 10 types of people,
Those who understand binary and those who do not. shh

hollow basalt
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There are 10 types of people,
Those who seen that joke countless times and those who haven't

pseudo lily
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Oh, Wait you said 10 people but only named 2 examples? where are the rest!

sudden cosmos
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There are 10 types of people:

glass canyon
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There are people

spring pond
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There are

hollow basalt
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There

rancid nimbus
silk eagle
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base ten, binary 10, same thing

rancid nimbus
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No... Base ten "2" == base two "10".

silk eagle
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exactly bro, same thing

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just diff numbers

storm berry
wind fiber
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........

storm berry
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10: and those who weren't expecting an octal joke

trail remnant
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Other number jokes:
oct 31 = dec 25

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For those who don't understand:

unknown.png
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Which probably doesn't help anyone who doesn't already understand. KEKW

visual path
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octal number go brr lol

pliant siren
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The "why did the computer programmer dress up as Santa Claus for Halloween" joke?

magic sphinx
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or is it if u dont??

rancid nimbus
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Because Oct 31 = Dec 25

hollow basalt
rancid nimbus
nocturne galleon
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So im developing a login interface for a college project and am thinking of hosting an sql server on a raspberry pi from my home and being able to remotely access it from anywhere, how manageable would this be and what would I need to do in order to be able to remotely access it?

hollow basalt
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check port forwarding

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
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If you can access the pi outside and you only need for the application to access the database on the same machine then I don't get your question

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If you use ssh, which I assume since that putty, then you only need to open a firewall and/or port forward 80/443 also

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@nocturne galleon

frigid vortex
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Pleas write this in powershell code for me. If you have quastions ask me.

ps.jpg
rancid nimbus
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I do not speak German, but I think this is correct, but written in bash.

echo Erste ganze Zahl eingeben
read varA
echo Zweite ganze Zahl eingeben
read varB
if [ $varA -gt $varB ];
then
    varMax=$varA
else
    varMax=$varB
fi;
echo $varMax
for varTeiler in $(seq 1 $varMax);
do
    if [ $(( $varA % $varTeiler )) -eq 0 ] && [ $(( $varB % $varTeiler )) -eq 0 ];
    then
        echo $varTeiler;
        varGGT=$varTeiler
    fi;
done;
varKGC=$(($(( varA * varB )) / varGGT))
echo Das kgV ist $varKGC
echo Das ggT ist $varGGT
hollow basalt
grizzled steeple
rancid nimbus
hollow basalt
pallid vapor
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can someone help me

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with a code generator

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that automatically copy & pastes the code

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?

hollow basalt
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what do you have so far?

pallid vapor
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these guys

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is all i have

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and idk how to actually code

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i will watch youtube videos soon but i thought peer to peer might be better for me to learn ^^

hollow basalt
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ohhh. was expecting to review code not teach someone. currently playing so i can't at the moment

pallid vapor
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thats fine ^^

hollow basalt
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but what do you have in mind

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how are you going to use this

pallid vapor
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this is like

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baby level coding lol

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but its something

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i want to make a macro

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xd

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that clicks around on something

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and presses a key that pastes a new code everytime

hollow basalt
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what is the "new code"

rancid nimbus
pallid vapor
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oh

hollow basalt
pallid vapor
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the random string of letters / numbers

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when i press N for example

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create a string of letters/numbers

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and paste it

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so for example

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N = D8sPw32s

hollow basalt
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I see, how are you going to use it

pallid vapor
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to post on a small app

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the names cannot be the same

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so this is my way around it lol

rancid nimbus
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What do you mean by that?

hollow basalt
silk eagle
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hello everybody im having an incredibly annoying issue in VS code, whenever I right click in the code editor the context menu opens on keydown of right click instead of on keyup, so it automatically chooses whatever option my mouse is on whenever i release right click. any ideas on how i can like rebind the context menu to right click keyup instead of keydown?

hollow basalt
silk eagle
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mouse

hollow basalt
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try using another mouse

silk eagle
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happens on my laptop's touchpad, my rival 650, and a deathadder

silk eagle
silk eagle
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try doing \ + enter

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ah wait that wouldnt work nvm

hollow basalt
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but why

magic kelp
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Anyone have experience with mongodb atlas shared tiers (M2/M5)?

gloomy blaze
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hello im new to lua and trying to program stuff with computercraft in minecraft and throws this error and i cant get behind it

unknown.png
nocturne galleon
severe viper
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how can i get a c++ to send out keyboard input;

night flame
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if that's what you mean

severe viper
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ty been looking for that for a good hour of searchin g and it was all user input

wind horizon
magic kelp
wind horizon
# magic kelp Just having some surprisingly bad performance on the atlas free tier and wonderi...

The shared tier is only good for light weight workloads, what would you estimate your read/writes?

It could be something else such as network or code reconnecting frequently, poor indexes, etc.

Unless they have blocked it on the shared tier you can turn on profiling to help understand why a read/write is slow.
https://docs.mongodb.com/manual/tutorial/manage-the-database-profiler/#specify-the-threshold-for-slow-operations

Database Profiler
trail remnant
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Alright. RANT TIME.

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Go is possibly the worst designed language ever. Fite me.

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Caveats: Not "worst designed" in terms of functionality. There are several other languages with strictly worse specs. (Looking at you PHP)

visual path
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Go developers don’t have enough energy to fight you. They used all their get up and go writing a new way of doing time for no reason with a driver no one has ever heard of.

trail remnant
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Not "worst designed" in terms of intelligent engineering tradeoffs. Go is actually fairly pragmatic about making rational tradeoffs for performance vs functionality vs developer work.

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Go is the worst designed language by the fact that they hate humanity. Go is the only mainstream programming language that actively hates developers simply for existing.

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Seriously though. Go is the most pretentious, petty, and spiteful language I've ever touched.

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At least JavaScript admits that there's lots of bad parts. At least Java is trying to clean up old interfaces without breaking backwards compatibility. At least C# is consistently adding new useful features and tools that make the language pleasant. At least Python was willing to rip the band-aid off and break important interfaces to improve the language. At least Rust is willing to spend years tweaking their interfaces and design to make something that really works for developers rather than against them.

visual path
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Ngl I’m looking at a go issue rn.

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And trying to figure out why the database didn’t migrate correctly causing the front end to crash entirely because there’s no data in the tables.

trail remnant
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Why no sad Linus emote? That post needs a sad Linus emote on it.

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Seriously though. Go spends so much time hating developers. They claim to be "fast", but they waste unnecessary compute cycles to literally randomize the order of hashmaps every time they are iterated. It's a stupid and pointless waste of compute cycles to stop stupid people from doing stupid things.
Link: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/55925822/why-are-iterations-over-maps-random

Stack Overflow
Why are iterations over maps random?

From the Golang source code, they seem to follow a pretty standard implementation of hash tables (ie array of buckets). Based on this it seems that iteration should be deterministic for an unchange...

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It's almost tragic that it finally took Rust, the first real potential competitor to C, to finally cause the Go developers to get off their high horse and start trying to change the language. After Rust started gaining popularity, suddenly Go had a bunch of new features. Things that they had kept saying they were never going to do. Features that they had to start adding to prevent Rust from bleeding them dry from developers contributing to the language.

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It's "almost" tragic, because their own haughtiness put them in that position to begin with. The only languages that stand the test of time are the ones that you're forced into using, (Cobol in legacy apps, JavaScript in web apps) or the ones that are designed cleanly and make them a joy to work with. (Python)

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Go isn't really a tragedy, because the fundamental design of their language is about the value of the code, not the value of the developers. It was written and designed by a company that treats workers like disposable cogs. Go actively fights developer workflows to force "better code". I understand the theory, but in practice it's a horrible idea. Python has ended up as the second most popular programming language because it's clean, concise, and simple. By comparison, Go is excessively verbose, clunky, and lacks powerful tools. It was inevitable that many good developers are now contributing to languages that respect them and their time.

midnight wind
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someone here loves go

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Says it's the python version of compiled languages

trail remnant
#

Compared to C, sure. Go is an amazing leap forward.

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But compared to what Rust is doing, Go feels like it's still decades behind other languages.

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And if "like compiled Python" means "rigidly defines exactly what style and functionality you are forced to use", then he doesn't understand Python.

#

Ask him to boot up a Python REPL and run import this.

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Python writes it's philosophy as poetry.
Go writes it's philosophy as an engineering manual.
Python's home page has clean, concise code as the first thing you see.
Go's home page has a giant blob of cooperate logos.
They are not the same.

#

As a tool, Go is perfectly serviceable. It's a functional hammer. You can use it for almost anything, even if it's rarely the best choice for the job.
But as a language? Go sucks. I love languages because of their expressiveness and flexibility. Go has actively fought to reduce that freedom.

#

Want to iterate over a list in a random order? Here's python:

import random

li = list(range(10))
random.shuffle(li)

Want to have code that doesn't modify the original list? random.sample(li, len(li)) will give you an iterator with a random order.
Clean, simple, concise.

#

C#? A bit non-obvious, but once you read the code it's pretty clear what it's doing, even if you don't know anything about LINQ lambda expressions.

System.Random rnd = new System.Random();
IEnumerable<int> numbers = Enumerable.Range(1, 100).OrderBy(r => rnd.Next());
#

Go? Nothing. No standard library. No set of tools designed for working at any level higher than "here's a basic linear congruence generator".
So you end up with hilarious but fatal problems like people using Go's "feature" of random map iteration to do something incorrect that leads to hard to diagnose bugs.
See: https://twitter.com/CAFxX/status/1135190309514620928

Carlo Alberto Ferraris (@CAFxX)

Number of times a certain element x is extracted first from a #golang map with 1000 elements. Yup, heavily skewed: if you care about extracting fairly a random element from a map do not use for i := range m { return i }.

Likes

103

Twitter ·
midnight wind
#

@slate frigate? thoughts? ik you like Go

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I'm clueless

trail remnant
#

Yeah, this is a talk for professional developers. If you're programming for fun, use whatever tool you prefer.

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When you're just building stuff for fun, sometimes it's fun to use clunky tools for the extra challenge. That's pretty cool.

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But when you're using a tool for professional work, it's nice to have something that makes your job easier. Go is the opposite of that.

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I mean, I'm a complete nerd. The number of people in the world who would write this many words about something that's a minor annoyance and also unironically use words like "linear congruential generator" is probably small enough to fit inside a single family home. So I'm not expecting a lot of back and forth discussion. If just one person finds my rant entertaining, then I've accomplished my goal.

trail remnant
visual path
#

Nah. It’s all good.

#

Time just not being stored correctly.

trail remnant
#

That's it?

visual path
#

Yeah.

trail remnant
#

Dang database timestamps.

visual path
#

Well, it doesn’t really help that we changed sqlite drivers

trail remnant
#

Custom code to handle the extraction, or updating the storage format?

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I mean, time is one of those tricky things that always finds a new way to bite you.

#

Lol at #30. KEKW

#

The follow up article has some real gems:

  1. Time always goes forwards.
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In the computing world, time is a polite recommendation with zero real meaning.

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Related: I'm dimly aware of the work that went into GPS satellites, but I can't begin to comprehend how anyone actually managed to make it work. You literally have to calculate relativistic effects to get our modern level of GPS accuracy.

wind horizon
#

I'm not sure if it's fair to talk about flexibility and compare statically typed compiled language to an interpreted language like python. That's the entire purpose of those type of languages is to be flexible, easy to code, and easy maintain.

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I do agree that go is often over hyped and potentially picked for the wrong reasons. I do enjoy the go language though

#

I think a strong use case for statically typed languages is performance, for example building cryptography in strictly python or JavaScript has terrible performance. However that is why we have created bindings / apis for many statically typed libraries. So we can interact with them as if they're part of the language we're writing such as python or JavaScript. This kind of gives us the best of both worlds.

#

One of the few more unique aspects of go I will give it an interesting credit for is how it bundles everything into the executable rather than needing to link to other libraries so it is much easier to build a portable application or install that application.

I think there are bundling solutions like this though for C/C++ where you ship the lib and reference it in the directory.

The downside to this is Go is historically a much larger binary output vs a C/C++ version and patching those libraries involves doing Go builds instead of updating linked libraries.

Ofc that comes with increased stability, so trade offs. Also I don't use a Go a lot, so it's possible someone who uses it a lot may be aware of ways to connect linked libraries instead of bundling them.

#

Last thing because that turned into a wall of text. Lol

I think Golangs biggest problem is that it's not a mature language. Likely anything you want todo in C/C++, Python, JS, Ruby, etc have libraries for virtually everything. Go I often ran into half finished libraries or just no library at all.

Thats not a fault of Go though, just growing pains.

slate frigate
#

You can in fact connect to linked libraries. One of the pieces of tooling that I use in one of our production pipelines requires a dynamically linked library.

Also, go has (imo) a reasonably robust standard library. There are a lot of times I don't ever need to import anything outside of it.

Also, range iterates sequentially, not whatever that graph is.

trail remnant
hollow basalt
#

Why are we replying in wall of texts, its hard to reply to each points.

Please try not to tell the whole thing so it's easier to dicuss

hollow basalt
#

Maybe go would add popular libraries

trail remnant
slate frigate
#

@trail remnant I think there isn't a random iteration std library because of go's focus on being a language for networking and systems pipelines, where I suspect random operations are not desirable. Certainly not for anything I write.

trail remnant
#

To the more general point, I picked Python as a comparison because 1: Someone else compared them, and they're very different. 2: Python is the prettiest language I know 3: Python is highly successful because it is well designed.

#

I had a more specific comparison of a small technical problem that is easily solved by a good standard library, where Go is lacking that functionality, which led to specific failures in high-profile examples. (The literal Go conference hosts made the mistake)

hollow basalt
#

I like c/c++ but i often reimplement common features, why? Because thats the philosophy of the language.

Not because the standard library is bad, doesn't mean the language is bad

#

Agreed with roaldi regarding the purpose of the language

wind horizon
#

Yeah I think we have to keep in mind these other languages existed, so when Go was created it was created to solve some specific needs the creators felt weren't being well served by the current languages.

slate frigate
#

Also, I'd like to state how much I LOVE giving a user a statically linked binary, and telling him to run it, don't touch anything else. Takes a lot of layer 8 problems out of the picture

wind horizon
#

Go is a great language for some use cases, but I would 100% agree developers do tend to hype up go and find excuses to use it.

But hey who doesn't want to play around with a cool new language considering most of us are working on many decades old languages. 😆

hollow basalt
#

Yea, been working in python for a while..loved it

#

But switched to another language to learn about other things

hollow basalt
wind horizon
#

Yeah so I'm a HUGE JS lover and almost all my time is spent in it, but even I hate electron apps. 😆

hollow basalt
#

Electron is nice for spotify. But most of the projects I see is disappointed when they see performance and optimization.
Theg started jumping ships

#

Tauri is one, it's like electron but rust

wind horizon
#

Yeah and electron is a mess. Maybe performance will be a different story as WebAssembly takes off more and people begin to use that in Electron. Than we can use some more efficient compiled languages to achieve some tasks... But that all just sounds nice until we see someone pull it off. Haha

#

Overall electron is just so nasty imo, if we are going to embrace the idea of web tech for apps we need native support on Windows and MacOS.

hollow basalt
#

One thing ks certain, calling native from node is horrendous

#

Not one project that calls native doesn't have problems

wind horizon
#

If we can get apps Windows similar to like WebOS (now use for LG TVs) it could be great for lots of simple apps. It'd still have performance constraints with demanding apps, but it'd provide an easy path to publishing a large amount of apps.

Think like these chat apps on electron, the web browser handles them great it's the electron packaged version that tends to suck and chew up battery / cpu.

hollow basalt
#

That's the beauty of python.
It's slow performance can be offseted by native code.
And then numpy appeared and took over the world

hollow basalt
#

Its html5 and lack apis

#

They can't even create game stream software in webos iirc

#

Since ir doesn't provide enough api

#

Netflix and other video streaming is fine though

#

So that's why go isnt necessarily bad. Maybe the community just needs time to use it in prod

wind horizon
hollow basalt
#

Even as something as popular as node-sass is error prone

#

Thanks toolchain

wind horizon
#

Right those apis don't exist for the web so they have to be provided as a API from the OS in like an sdk. Which kinda sucks, but maybe that also helps prevent ppl from using JS where they shouldn't? Like if you have a complex desktop app stop trying to us JS. Lol

wind horizon
hollow basalt
#

Big companies dont need to spend much more to have their apps in webos

#

Which is a plus

#

Imagine if it took a long time for netflix to put it in webos

#

Like the motherfcking Nintendo switch that still doesn't have netflix

#

I have the original switch and netflix is a dream that seems impossible

hollow basalt
#

I know that i need to change config to make it work for me

#

But damn

wind horizon
#

Change config?

#

Yeah web apps have super low barrier to entry and honestly make apps easy to build, because likely you can share a lot between your web app and your mobile/tv/desktop if it's natively supported.

hollow basalt
#

Do some tweaks, i don't expect for me to clone the repo and build just works

#

As someone who used cmake. It's an expectation for me to do something before it builds

hollow basalt
wind horizon
#

I mean it should for the most part, if ppl have messed up repos that are pita to build that's a fail imo. (when talking JS or Python etc)

hollow basalt
#

Maybe i haven't used python to its limit

#

But so far I haven't encountered something as node simply not working when you're using a later version

#

Nice

#

Now i can choose between my project running or having new features

wind horizon
#

I'm not good with Python, I only know what I do from working on a web app that had a BE in Python for 2 years. I learned what I did just when there was something I didn't want to bother a Python dev for.

I hate being FE only, but also wasn't interested in learning much Python.

It's a good language from what I used, but just wasn't something I enjoyed working in personally.

#

Well node projects should set engines in the package file, which will halt you before proceeding with the wring version. Most things are fine on newer versions, I think most breaking stuff was back in those v6 days.

#

I'd also suggest most repos have .nvmrc files. That way if the person cloning it uses nvm they can just run nvm use and it'll auto switch to the node version suggested for the project.

#

Off topic, I hate when ppl are in public areas with their phone on speaker phone. Like I don't want to listen to your whole convo and you talking loud into it. Lol

hollow basalt
trail remnant
#

And I'm back. And the discussion has left the realm of language design. 🥲

#

And the last post was over an hour ago. 😭

trail remnant
#

To my earlier point: I think that the biggest competitor to Go is Rust. And I believe that Go will share the same fate as Ruby.
That means it will start out looking incredibly amazing, gaining ground fast compared to the existing languages, looking like it will become the next big thing,

unknown.png
#

Only for the real winner to make itself known after a long enough time has passed for people to try the next "hot" thing and decide that they'd rather use something that has fewer rough edges and a lot more of the comforts they're used to.

unknown.png
trail remnant
#

So, Stack Overflow's 2021 developer survey describes Go's language design problems in a few graphs. In just a few pictures, it perfectly describes the broader industry sentiment, and charts the next 5 years of Go's future: slowly falling into irrelevance outside of a specific niche. (On the plus side, that means that you'll get good pay if you learn Go in 5 years.)

#

Note: These graphs describe which languages programmers want to move to when they're already writing that language. The colors represent which language they come from. For example, this is the graph of Java developers and Kotlin developers. Most Java devs want to stay with Java, but some of them want to move to Kotlin. Effectively no Kotlin developers want to move to Java. (The bulk of people who mention Kotlin want to learn it.)

I'm intentionally leaving out JavaScript and Python out of the comparisons below because they're both so popular that basically everyone wants to learn them and everyone wants to move away from them. They're also incredibly general purpose programming languages, so adding them to the chart doesn't help explain why people want to move to/from those languages, unlike more narrow comparisons.

unknown.png
#

For Go, we can compare it to specific groups of languages.
When compared with the other compiled low-bloat programming languages, there's the hilarious tradeoff between C and C++, where many developers keep moving back and forth between them. They're both frustrating developers and making them want to leave. Meanwhile, no one wants to change from their existing language to write Go code. But the most interesting language is Rust. There's a sizable chunk of developers who want to keep using Rust, in spite of it's small usage. Meanwhile, there are few enough developers who love Go that it doesn't register on this graph. That's a VERY bad sign for a language that's supposedly young enough to have troubles with it's standard library, when Rust is even younger.

unknown.png
lunar quail
#

I'm a big fan of kotlin on the jvm. The improvements in nullability are 👍

trail remnant
#

"Okay, but that's not a fair comparison", I hear people saying. "Go isn't designed for bare metal code, while C/C++ and Rust are OS level languages".
Okay, so lets compare the popular languages for sever development. <See image> Ouch. That's rough for a few languages. The only people who like PHP are experiencing Stockholm syndrome. Plenty of Java developers are planning on leaving Java behind for basically any other language, but only desperate Java devs have any desire to learn Go. Outside of the clutter of the web languages, there's very little interest in Go. The people who have quality tools don't have any reason to switch to Go from a language with powerful tools for managing web servers.

unknown.png
#

Nullability is one of the best features of C#. It's a new-ish feature, so existing code bases probably don't use it, but I can't imagine writing large chunks of new code without those tools. There are very few things quite as nice as almost completely removing nulls from your entire code base.

#

You know, the more I sit and think about it, one of the biggest reasons Go is bleeding is probably Docker.

wind horizon
#

I'd take those graphs with a grain of salt though, back in the day everyone answered them but tbh most co-workers and old co-workers I know don't do them and a lot of them don't even frequent stack overflow anymore unless it just appears in a Google search.

#

At the end of the day it's kind of a use what you is best, which can be a mix of what is truly best and what your team knowledge is.

I'm not here to judge any languages, if I was I'd easily drop Java below Go simply because I hate working in Java / the syntax. That's a silly thing to say though, since it's personal preference. That's why I try not to judge a language and instead just select one based on the problem and team.

hollow basalt
#

We the community create the graphs. the graphs shouldn't create us

#

graphs with a grain of salt though

#

^

wind horizon
#

In other discussion, does anyone else love watching a bunch of docker layers / imgs pull at once. Something about seeing all those little loading bars fly across to done at once is fun. Lol

Docker layers are easily one of my favorite things, to think we used to run tones of scripts that prepped VMs or physical servers for app deploys. 😆

hollow basalt
#

In other discussion, does anyone else love watching a bunch of docker layers / imgs pull at once. Something about seeing all those little loading bars fly across to done at once is fun. Lol
but docker hub changed such that they now rate limit layers

wind horizon
#

I mean it's still not slow for me, how many big layers are you pulling? 😆

#

I think rate limiting was fair, why should they be on the hook to pay for everyone's usage. Esp when business were using them for their layers and not paying in a dime.

#

What about a new version of docker hub that's distributed platform over P2P style network. It'd discover the closest peers, similar to like bit torrent. 🤔

hollow basalt
#

became more evident in log4j

#

they were benefiting from it for free

#

then suddenly these people complain about it

#

when it's LITERALLY FREE

wind horizon
#

Yeah haha.

I do think the maintainer of colors and faker in JS did it the wrong way though. He broke stuff for people intentionally and then said well big business should be paying me for this.

Breaking everyone's stuff means they are just gonna fork and forget you existed and more likely to damage your future.

Instead they should have posted an announcement or something explaining they are frustrated with companies using it and not contributing or donating.

But at the end of the day that's open source. 🤷‍♂️

The docker issue is different since it's actually costing them money to host and all that bandwidth. But ppl using your code is a bit of a harder justification imo.

hollow basalt
#

Breaking everyone's stuff means they are just gonna fork and forget you existed and more likely to damage your future.

Instead they should have posted an announcement or something explaining they are frustrated with companies using it and not contributing or donating.
He did warned people about it though and said people should fork

#

And from what you said it's clear that the announcement didn't get to you.
But ofc people won't randomly read github issues and not everyone follows dev's twitter

#

to be clear, I am not promoting such acts

#

I'm in the neutral. since the Devs do great things and paid none, while these "fortune 500" benefiting from free work

humble spindle
#

Can anyone recommend a good deployment management software that can allow versioning?

hollow basalt
#

looks like someone needs docker

#

though not strictly deployment management

humble spindle
#

Well its more of deploying software zips, executables etc and let them install on different machines. Or to package things

hollow basalt
#

that's not deployment management

visual path
#

sir, that is a package manager

#

deployment management would be like terraform, ansible, docker, etc.

silk eagle
#

do u mean like sending a zip file to a bunch of diff machines

supple hull
tidal tusk
#

anyone good with ffmpeg?

hollow basalt
#

we won't know

next igloo
#

What language would be better for Discord Bot development? Java, C++ or C?

hollow basalt
#

none

next igloo
hollow basalt
#

the ones that are good

next igloo
#

Could you be specific

hollow basalt
#

no

next igloo
#

Then why’d you respond with no answer

silk eagle
#

i believe its just

  1. JavaScript
  2. Python
#

discord.js is "standard" as it's updated a lot quicker than discord.py for new features and i'm pretty sure discord.py is no longer maintained by the original developer as discord is doing some weird shit with slash commands which will break the entire library or something

#

but there's likely a fork somewhere that's maintained

nocturne galleon
#

Any reason these errors are happening? Brand new to JavaScript.
(removed image, included info)

silk eagle
#

try copying the bot token from your discord dev page again

nocturne galleon
#

Fixed; the quotes ended up being unicode ones, and broke it.

silk eagle
#

👍

hollow basalt
#

👍

nocturne galleon
#

Nope, still broken.

unknown.png
#

Different error this time.

hollow basalt
#

What's your intent

nocturne galleon
#

Got curious.

#

Sick of the usual Swift stuff lol

hollow basalt
#

Yea, might be better to paste the tutorial here

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

Oh looks like an old tutorial

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

Whats your version of discord js

nocturne galleon
#

13.6.0

hollow basalt
#

Or you know, dowgrade to v12

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

Oh no no. I mean check disocrd intents

nocturne galleon
#

How do I do that 😅

hollow basalt
#

Discord.client( <put intents here> )

hollow basalt
#

You're much better off reading their documentation than me explaining. They're better than me

nocturne galleon
#

This is incredibly confusing xD

#

YES! FIXED IT, FINALLY

silk eagle
nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

xD

#

Wrong neighborhood

hollow basalt
wind horizon
#

I dislike Discord.js, from docs to the way they decided to implement things. The Discord official docs leave a bit to be desired too.

I found a Slack bot was way easier to setup due to better docs and official SDKs.

woven vault
next igloo
#

?

woven vault
#

get it?

#

maybe not

visual path
#

Even discord’s webhook json shit is very vague.

nocturne galleon
#

https://superuser.com/questions/1397233/how-would-i-convert-a-windows-exe-to-a-macos-executable-app

Do you have any other suggestions to make a java-based program that i wrote, turned into an .exe file, so that its click-to-run on windows, be also click-to-run on MacOS? Or is the suggestion of the commenter in the link above, sufficient enough?

Super User
How would I convert a Windows .exe to a macOS executable/app?

I am trying to convert a Windows .exe file to a macOS .app or anything that would run on macOS. Problem is the only things I have found require a Mac and I don't have one. I am looking to convert i...

#

There's a software package for macOS called Wineskin that lets you take an arbitrary Windows .exe and wrap it in a Wine environment that you can copy to other Macs

#

the tutorial for making the java program to an .exe that i followed is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr_TdPuF-4g

YouTube
upgrdman
How to Compile Java Programs into EXEs

Here's how to take your Java programs and convert them into fully self-contained EXEs. You make a single file, the user double-clicks it, and the program just runs. The user does not need Java, and they don't need to install anything.

The process involves four steps:

  1. With Eclipse, export your Java program as a "Runnable JAR File."
  2. With La...
▶ Play video
wind horizon
#

Why turn a Java app to exe and then look at converting it to MacOS, Java is already cross platform. Guessing something in the original posts I missed. 🤔

nocturne galleon
#

and not all have it

#

and client preferred that it be as much as possible, click-to-run no installations required

#

which i understand, so making it an .exe makes it more safe for users without a JRE

#

do note that this is just a simple Reaction-Time test and recorder program, for a research

wind horizon
#

Hmm maybe leave it as as Jar, but then make a exe / script for Windows that just makes sure JRE is installed? That way the same Jar can be used on Mac, but just need a diff script for Mac.

#

I'd guess someone solved this before, but I'm not Java dev and the Java apps I used were Jar or docker files. Haha

nocturne galleon
#

Yes that would be easier if a JRE was already present in the system.... Interesting take too, might have to research more if I could make a script for both windows and mac that checks if a JRE is already install, and if not, go ahead and install, and if it is, just continue to run the .jar the next time its been ran again

#

I thought at first that all computers had java already installed but then again, i tried installing a pure windows 10 and tried java apps back then (mainly minecraft lmao) and it needed the JRE download

wind horizon
#

Yeah windows doesn't provide JRE by default, I think a lot less ppl have it installed these days.

#

I did something similar with a VPN, when the user double clicked it the shell script would check for OpenVPN and use it or install it and then configured it.

But it required 2 diff scripts for Windows and Mac, since Windows was a batch script and Mac was bash script.

trail remnant
#

I feel like a lot of the questions over the last few days have been some form of "my manager wants something and I don't have the skills to do it properly, can you help?"

nocturne galleon
#

?

#

"I don't have the skills to do it properly" I could just not ask here at all but I already have done a bit of research and before treading to a path that may or may not lead me to the correct answer, I tried to ask people with experience, as to save some time instead of being stuck to a solution that I thought would already suffice

trail remnant
#

What project is this for? That's going to determine basically everything.

nocturne galleon
#

A researcher in our university, asked for a program to measure reaction times of his participants, really basic, records keypresses and time intervals

#

tailored to what his research needs

trail remnant
#

Like, why is the person using Java and worried about deploying apps to end user machines? The whole point of using the JVM is that you don't need to worry about managing platform specific things because the JVM handles all that.

#

If it's for one specific, person, why is the deployment strategy a real concern? It's probably just faster to get on a video call and walk him through the installation steps than it is to talk with us.

wind horizon
#

Hmm if it's key presses could a web app be easier? No deployment to user systems needed or if it has to be offline still just need a web browser and that's it. 🤔

trail remnant
#

If it's for a fleet of user laptops, why is the IT department not handling the rollout?
If it's for a product you're selling, why did no one solve this problem before you started a company around that product?
Like, in all the cases, this seems like a solution looking for a problem, not a problem with no obvious solution.

trail remnant
nocturne galleon
#

We already talked through it and WE COULD go to the option of just letting the participants of the research just install the JRE separately and have a .jar file run, and we would ont have problems making an all in one click-to-run app

nocturne galleon
trail remnant
#

Now you're brushing up against the problem of cross platform desktop UIs, which has been an unsolvable problem for basically the entire history of programming.

#

Which is an eerily similar problem to "I have an idea, how do make a company to support my idea".

#

Even by the standards of the late 2000s, Java creates ugly GUIs. Pretty much any webpage with bootstrap thrown on it will look better to the average user than anything you could easily make in Java. That's not a statement of "better". Just a general observation of what's popular and widely used.

wind horizon
#

Does Java use a singular popular GUI framework or something? Most Java apps I have used have that same Java vibe / feeling. 😆

trail remnant
#

From the requirements, which includes

really basic
I'd say the simplest and best thing would be to go learn enough JavaScript to just write the app as a simple webpage.

nocturne galleon
#

hmm i guess time to start digging into my old javascript files again

wind horizon
#

React + a component lib makes it really fast, if but that does come at the cost of learning basic react I guess.

(like antd, BluePrintJS, or material-ui)

trail remnant
nocturne galleon
#

but yea, i do agree with your statements, a web app will be easier, cross platform, maybe even make it mobile-otpimized if time allows

trail remnant
#

Mobile optimized is a HUGE plus. It turns out that most people primarily use their phone. And not having to drag a laptop out during an experiment is nice.

wind horizon
#

Or even just having a tablet to hand testers.

trail remnant
#

There's a reason JavaScript is the most popular programming language.

#

No one would argue that JavaScript is well designed, or a pleasure to use. But it's popular for a reason.

nocturne galleon
#

I definitely agree, alright this help eliminate problems later on (because our (initial) java app also includes having to automatically upload results to a database, might make sense that a webapp will make that side, easier)

trail remnant
#

Web development does create the problem of needing a hosting server, but you're already committed to hosting the individual files for download anyways, and compiling the app down to a single file is always possible.

trail remnant
#

Your app needs to communicate with a central server, the UI is relatively light weight, and it needs to be deployed for use with end users. Why was a web app not your first and only choice?

nocturne galleon
trail remnant
#

10 months is nothing.

#

I reiterate my previous statement, with a slight clarification: The way you're asking the question makes it pretty clear that you don't have the skills or experience to do it properly. That doesn't make you a bad person, just inexperienced. There's plenty of opportunity to learn. But your questions do send signals about your skill level.

wind horizon
#

Well feel free to drop any questions in this channel or DM. Sure lots of others here have expierence in web too, since it's so popular.

Nice thing is a web app you can pack virtually everything you need into a docker file too for easy deployment. (if they use docker there)

trail remnant
#

+1 for Docker. I can't imagine deploying any serious application without using it.

nocturne galleon
#

Yes this is my very first project that has commissions that I have accepted, this is outside my comfort zone but still accepted it anyway with my colleague

trail remnant
#

First job kind of thing. Neat.

wind horizon
trail remnant
#

Having a simple UI makes it an even better project to start learning web development. That means you're free to learn without the stress of trying to set up a huge complex project with unfamiliar technologies.

wind horizon
#

That's true

trail remnant
#

Yeah, that's the worst part about Docker. It tends to be an Ops tool, even when it should really be an everyone tool.

nocturne galleon
#

i will be going out for the mean time now to do some errands but yea, what you guys said is right that, probably starting to do researhc on javascript again, tonight, will definitely help speed up the process and eliminate problems

#

already have basics, just need a refresher

trail remnant
#

You don't start to understand how important Docker is until your Ops is having problems, and by that point it's too late. You're going to spend years cleaning up your Ops mistakes and teaching Dev how to play nice with Ops. Just start with DevOps and save yourself literal years of trouble.

wind horizon
trail remnant
#

Docker is so nice.

nocturne galleon
#

Thank you for the feedback guys, learned new shit

#

🙏

trail remnant
#

Protip for starting a new project: Get your deployment pipeline set up on day one, and use it whenever you're testing something.

#

That's like, lesson one of DevOps: use the same process and deploy often. Never stop.
I could go on a whole hour long rant about the huge benefits of just doing that one thing.

wind horizon
#

Haha yup that's the CD part of your pipeline.

trail remnant
#

Honestly, doing that one thing is the difference between functional teams and horrible ones.
If you can talk to a customer, make a fix, and get the new version in their hands within the hour, you'll impress literally everyone you work with, and everything will flow so smoothly. You deploy often, which means you find a fix mistakes and problems quickly, which means you never have huge problems pile up.

#

The opposite is also true. If you don't have a known process for building and deploying your app, or that process isn't used regularly, you'll run into problems whenever you need to do something quickly. That only leads to headaches and problems. The less often you deploy, the more you'll make mistakes, which just makes you less likely to deploy often, which leads to more mistakes when you do end up deploying.

wind horizon
#

Yeah it's pretty cringe to see a place doing manual deploys today when even many hobby apps are now automed. It's just gotten so easy to automate deploys with the tooling we have now, esp if you are deploying to the cloud.

trail remnant
#

Yeah, this stuff is so easy. Like 10 years ago it was basically impossible to do. Now it's built into GitHub itself, and there's like 5 major platforms for doing this stuff easily.

#

And you can always just take the manual approach and script your build, but run it in a docker container. That makes it easy to automate later down the line, and saves you from "it worked on my machine" syndrome.

#

I think the minimum barrier for a functional team is to do at least one deployment a week. (barring unusual systems like the space shuttle)
If you don't deploy that often, there's a functional problem with your team. If you can deploy that often, it's a sign that your deployment process is at least somewhat functional, since deployments must be fairly quick and painless. (Can't deploy every week if deploying takes hundreds of hours of work.)
But the truly functional teams just deploy whenever, and they can have a change deployed in under an hour. Usually within a few minutes, depending on the build times.

#

This reminds me. Something something Joel Test.

#

Good companies run at 10/10. Most companies are 2/10.

wind horizon
#

I have worked a lot of places that only deploy bi-weekly (end of sprint) but it was fully automated so it was easy to push out a hot fix within an hour. I think that's still ok, not apps have changes fast enough or teams big enough to be worth deploying every few days.

But I do think even on those teams they should have had fast releases, to not hold back new features. But I don't think it was harmful that they waited for end of sprint either.

I think though to trust you release process to go that fast you also need robust testing and you need full integration tests not just unit tests to provide the confidence in the tests that nothing is broken without manual review.

trail remnant
#

I think if you're doing weekly releases, it makes a lot of sense to deploy at the end of a sprint. Honestly, it makes the most sense for most teams, I think. They deliver value according to the business schedule. That's totally fine.

wind horizon
#

I think too many teams focus on coverage metrics based on unit tests. So many apps I have seen with 0 integration tests and instead have 80-100% coverage of unit tests where everything is mocked and really it could all not work together right. 😆

trail remnant
#

What's not fine is finishing a sprint, then decided not to deploy. If you didn't deliver anything of value to customers, what did you do for half a month? You literally had nothing that could have provided value? That's a worrying sign of broader dysfunction. (outside of end-of-year holiday weeks)

trail remnant
wind horizon
#

Yeah big business can move so slow sometimes no value is added.

They shouldn't, but they just do and it chokes out dev creativity and engagement.

#

But flip side I have worked places with too much energy and push, which results in burn out. Also devs that are too into their work can often become a bit hostile / toxic unintentionally, since they will argue their strong opinions with passion.

You need that perfect middle ground where your team isn't too big and can be agile and engaged, but also everyone is respecting work life boundaries.

I have only ever found that in startups though.

supple hull
# wind horizon But flip side I have worked places with too much energy and push, which results ...

A lot of wisdom right here, people who identify entirely as a developer are often the most difficult as work becomes personal, as it’s their ego.

I work for a small outfit that isn’t a startup and sure I could get paid more but I know the company is good to me, and has let me do things no other company has like skip a day of work last second for leisure and comped me days off after a long project with a lot of hours. They exist but the trade is probably financial.

As far as big business, I actually had a major retailer, I’ll narrow down to massive hardware store chain almost derail launching a site because they couldn’t be bothered to properly license a font and getting them to do so was glacial. It was nutty.

hollow basalt
hollow basalt
#

A lot of wisdom right here, people who identify entirely as a developer are often the most difficult as work becomes personal, as it’s their ego.
This is why, when I learn new things. I don't shove it to others, i'd rather look like a fool than smart asshole

#

atleast the fool can learn from his teammates and people like him around

supple hull
#

Man I’m so glad I’m not dev ops, I’m glad dev ops exists but I just get to do my thing and not give a damn about deployments or infrastructure.

hollow basalt
#

but it's stressful to be oncall and on the lookout

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somtimes my friends had to drop online games to fix issues. that sucks

#

"sorry dude, i need to fix something so disconnecting"

#

it's not like it's their fault

supple hull
#

Again, glad these people exist. I had a friend who’d have to rotate support and ops duty once a month and basically required to in cell service at all times and 25 minutes away from a computer for the weekend he was on duty. Never in my life have I had to do that. Basically,if I wanted to go skiing, as he was my ski buddy it’d be by myself on the weekend he was on call.

#

It was some tiny start up, so they didn’t have a team

nocturne galleon
#

btw @wind horizon and @trail remnant sorry for the ping

#

but I thank you for the messages and insights you provided

#

my colleagues have agreed to switch languages and we immediately have faith that it would be smooth sailing, because it resolved most problems that we will face if the app wasn't web-based

#

indeed, I was just scared of venturing again to another language that we haven't touched for months. Java was the very recent language we just used and we did not put too much thought on the pros and cons

nocturne galleon
#

Question about javascript's setInterval()

Since the app will be measuring reaction times, and most likely, the main threads will be on the tab that the javascript is working on, is accuracy gonna be a problem for it? I have heard other developers in my place that setInterval() had inaccuracies for them, but haven't had to test it yet tho, but maybe some here has had experience with it

#

was considering it, but still refreshing stuff from javascript so i might have missed other functions to use 😅

#

Gotcha! 🙏

#

damn i look like im talking to myself

#

🤣

silk eagle
#

that's all development is, it's just you saying
"It's always something"
"Here we go again"
"Alright now it should work"
and "that's so stupid who made this shit"

#

not to anybody in particular just yourself

wind horizon
# nocturne galleon was considering it, but still refreshing stuff from javascript so i might have m...

So timers aren't perfectly accurate in JS, but on an avg day your working within mills not full seconds variance.

The time this isn't true is if for some reason you are blocking the event loop and a tone of stuff on the call stack.

I also kind of wonder in what case you'd use set interval to track the response time instead of just capturing start and stop times for each question / measurement? 🤔

wind horizon
#

If the plan is to keep moving between items every X interval I don't think the variance would really matter, since I can't imagine there would be a measurable difference in a few mills for the humen eye / reaction time.

But in those cases I'd log the start / stop time of each experiment, so if for some reason it shoots over few mills on a user you'd have it logged.

slim rune
wind horizon
slim rune
#

Cloud hosted on HiveMQ on Amazon AWS, CLI connects properly but I can't get a Java client to connect

wind horizon
#

Hmm idk Java very well, but if you share a code snippet / example someone here might be able to help you out.

Just be sure to replace user / pass / certs etc with fake stuff. Haha

cloud knot
cloud knot
#

but 99% it is just you missing an intermediate certificate in the server configuration. If Java has only top level CA certificates in their own CA list, and your server only returns only the domain level certificate in the SSL answer, then there is nothing to connect the two.

wind horizon
#

Hmm you think a paid hosted HiveMQ on AWS would be using an intermediate cert like that?

#

Deff does sound like a cert issue though.

nocturne galleon
nocturne galleon
#

then i checked like 30 mins later

#

all his replies are gone

wind horizon
#

Are you going like plain JS with HTML or using a framework?

nocturne galleon
#

Still doing refreshers and in our plan, its JS with HTML

#

for now

#

might improve later (for sure)

nocturne galleon
#

its fun being this active again

#

I am still a 2nd Year College Student, currently on semestral break, next month gonna be doing my 2nd Semester, as a BS Computer Science student

hollow basalt
#

ohh, so it's a school project

#

thought you're employed and looking for suggestion in your company project

nocturne galleon
#

Is it considered a school project if a Senior Student hired students to make a program for his thesis

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he was a BS Industrial Engineering Student (yes I don't know why his thesis involves reaction times of student gamers lmao)

hollow basalt
#

wait a minute

#

are you actually allowed to do that

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

well if it's part of his thesis to outsource then sure

nocturne galleon
#

In the BS Com Sci space, it is common for seniors to outsource devs to make tailored programs for thesis

hollow basalt
#

unethical for us

nocturne galleon
#

in my organization in the school, the more experienced devs take on the challenge to make programs requested by companies outside the college

hollow basalt
#

if it's outside sure, but if it's for someone else's thesis

#

kinda of a gray

#

unless it's specifically stated

#

that the work done is considered to be outside of the researchers team

nocturne galleon
#

Just asked the head who delegated us the project, it was cleared up to their professors that they were granted the option to outsource these kinds of things (e.g. Making a program tailored to the said experiment via other students of the university / outside of the univ) and only for that sole purpose (also included to give credits as to who made the program)

hollow basalt
#

then that's good

#

to be clear. not trying to be righteous.
Just making sure it was stated so you're safe

nocturne galleon
hollow basalt
#

yes because if it isn't stated. they would be in trouble in the defense.
their panel of judges might screw them over about how they created that

wind horizon
#

Would an industrial engineer be a dev? Not sure what that degree is tbh, but sounds like factory stuff with the word industrial and not a dev. 😅

I know at my Uni students that weren't devs could have others build software for their research, since the development of software is unrelated to the research or outside their field / knowledge.

hollow basalt
#

indeed, but this should be clear as day when stated in the research.

wind horizon
# nocturne galleon I am still a 2nd Year College Student, currently on semestral break, next month ...

Imo one of the best things you can do early in your career is try a lot of things. There are so many different roles and even within roles many different types of work. Like say you know for 100% it's dev, but there game, web, embedded, etc development and even in those more specialties.

I started in ops, like legit sysadmin style work, and moved into dev once I learned it's what I loved. I wish I had spent more time early on finding out dev is what I loved.

But I know plenty that went the other way from like dev to ops.

hollow basalt
#

been trying out several

wind horizon
#

I never did Qa, I loved DevOps but I often found 2-3 weeks in I miss my pure dev tickets. Haha

My ideal is working on small enough team that as a dev I get todo some DevOps work / assist, but my main role is dev.

#

I dislike dealing with ppls emotions, so idk what I'm gonna do as I get old. Moving into management sounds 🤮

#

I mean I have no problem encouraging my teammates and such, but like when ppl have silly internal disagreements and such that managers have to get involved in.

hollow basalt
#

as someone who lead a project. it's hard with emotions especially when I need to motivate people to aim for the deadline

wind horizon
#

Yeah motivating someone to hit a deadline can be hard, I think self reflection what motivates me most is when my employer / manager has just taken such good care of me that I want to help the company hit the deadline.

Kind of like hey they give me a great place to work with lots of flexibility and time off, so I want to be there for them when they need me.

But if it's an employer that is always pushing for a deadline, esp ones set by product or execs and not the engineers I'm very 🤷‍♂️ not my problem. Lol

hollow basalt
#

yea, it's my "give back" if they are nice people

wind horizon
#

I worked one place that used monetary rewards, it worked for a bit but that doesn't work when someone has something else they value more. For example near holidays many ppl wouldn't work OT for the cash bonus.

Compared to being at an employer that treats you really well and rarely asks I'd work OT almost any time.

hollow basalt
#

but I can't control my devs

hollow basalt
#

yea we had OT pay

#

but at some point. we'd rather sleep and rest

wind horizon
#

That reminds me of my ops days, too many late nights.

One time there was a huge issue and I didn't go home until after 3am and then got up to come back in at 6am.

hollow basalt
#

yea that sucks, but in us. we had a free pass card. where they wouldn't expect us to go to work at the same time

#

because even if they did. I still wouldn't

wind horizon
#

Now being a dev, I have never had my phone rig in the middle of the night. So nice. Haha

hollow basalt
#

if my employer asked me to fix until 3am. he better be sure he won't be angry when I am late

wind horizon
#

Haha yeah

#

Thankfully place I work now has an 8hr policy, no one is supposed to work over 8hrs ever and if you do it has to be something special you report to manager so they make sure you get time off for it and try to prevent it in the future.

I feel like we are living in some great years to be devs, we are in such high demand companies will go out of there way to try and keep devs happy right now. Haha

hollow basalt
#

I feel like we are living in some great years to be devs, we are in such high demand companies will go out of there way to try and keep devs happy right now.
feel that. I switched work without even leaving my home hahahahaha

#

resignation and new job interview fully virtual

#

basically if they don't give me what I want. some company will

#

and it's not that hard anymore

wind horizon
#

Yup, my last 3 jobs were remote and I never went in person. But now with what covid did I don't even have to look for remote much, it used to be I'd get several office offers but few virtual.

But last time I switched jobs during covid there was sooooo many remote options now. Very nice.

hollow basalt
#

never got to see it

nocturne galleon
cloud knot
# wind horizon Thankfully place I work now has an 8hr policy, no one is supposed to work over 8...

i am at same company for 21 years now. But then i am at home office for over a decade now, before corona they asked me to do some in-person meetings for like a total of 1 day a week, sometimes not even that. Since Corona, Teams got standardized, so i am not going to the company for months. I think last time i was there was in September last year ? I had a Pixel 4a waiting for me there for over a month, until cowoker delivered it to my house 😄 .

#

and while i might get a bit more money elsewhere, why would i even bother

wind horizon
cloud knot
# wind horizon As long as you're happy that's all that matters. 👍 Last job is the most I ever...

well, if we ignore the weird offers (which are more than double of normal offers in my country), my normal monthly salary is around the average offered - most job offers are around 2000-2500 euros a month for Angular Dev.

On top of that i get paid extra for being on call few days a month, plus we get yearly bonuses. So on average, my salary is higher here than the typical offers.

Then as i mentioned, i am doing home office for over a decade now.

And finally, because i am above 35 years of age, i get 5 weeks of paid vacation by the law.

#

and then there are obvious benefits like i can ask the boss for anything work related tech if needed. Sure, sometimes it takes him time to actually purchase it, but we get stuff.

wind horizon
#

Yeah I had a SMB I worked at for years early on and that was one nice thing, I could ask for most things and they'd do it for me. Lot more flexibility in those kind of business and when you have that kind of time with a business.

Interesting so there is a law that over 35 gets 5 weeks? 🤔

supple hull
#

I was surprised that people are still doing much with angular

#

then I saw jobs pop up in recent months

cloud knot
#

this kind of stuff business loves

unknown.png
supple hull
#

Oh I'm much aware of the React/Vue issues but it seemed like Angular had all but disappeared for a few years

cloud knot
#

it was more like "loud people on internet" vs "people working on actual products" 😄

supple hull
#

just merely providing routing that you can expect is nice

cloud knot
#

same with PHP, loud people on internet scream how PHP is bad etc; yet it still dominates the server market and man, when i got a task to learn up on Symfony 5 because i might need to help other product team, i am just looking with wide eyes about how much coding in PHP changed

#

use statements in PHP, dependency injection in Symfony and stuff like that all around the place

supple hull
#

I work in an agency so we take on projects and even have worked on other people's projects and angular just vanished, whereas React is everywhere. I've seen though the horrors of a company trying to architect an app on React without a clear map. We got contracted to work on a company who makes a full system for car dealerships and it was the most nightmarish thing, they just threw more devs at the problem and had a team about 40 people trying to make this product.

#

Dude, working on a PHP site right now, Wordpress at that.

cloud knot
#

wordpress is stuck in 2005, that is a bad example

supple hull
#

You'd think in 2022 people wouldn't be paying for it but here we are.

#

Gutenberg certainly has freed up some of the wrongs of Wordpress for page building. so you're going insane with 3rd party plugins

#

Gutenberg is kinda crazy balls as being a React app that exists to generate markup but it is cool as you can write mini-react apps for a UI to create a front end experience

#

It doesn't change the back end issues that people have or better data structuring but sheer power of the community size certainly means any question you have someone has answered.

wind horizon
#

I haven't seen or heard much about WordPress in a while, I assumed it was on the decline. 🤔

cloud knot
supple hull
#

Wordpress is still the most popular CMS, and it's easy to see why: clients love the interface as they all know it.

cloud knot
#

if you shown me that back in 2005, i would have doubted it is PHP

cloud knot
supple hull
#

Symphony seems like it's evolved a lot, I haven't touched it for over a decade

midnight wind
#

needed a quick easy site, wordpress..

supple hull
#

There's a reason why Drupal and Wordpress persist: they hit a critical mass

cloud knot
supple hull
#

I used a really slick headless CMS that used graphQL, it was wonderful but most clients aren't gonna give a damn

wind horizon
#

I guess I just haven't worked with those type of sites in a long time, so I forgot about CMS for businesses that don't have their own devs. 🤔

midnight wind
#

wordpress works... for most, no need to reinvent the wheel. Is it elagant no, but it works

cloud knot
midnight wind
cloud knot
#

if you look at wordpress, it is the most ugly of PHP4 code designs

wind horizon
cloud knot
#

like all the worst things you could find in PHP4

midnight wind
cloud knot
#

(just a note, we are at PHP8 now)

midnight wind
#

like rn I'm making a website for an event

wind horizon
#

Do all those WordPress theme clubs still exist or did they consolidate into something like themeforest?

#

I can't even remeber the name of them, but I remeber you could like pay monthly and get access to all their themes.

#

This was back in the day when mootools was cool. 😅

cloud knot
#

oh and you know you are old when some of the tech you used doesn't exist anymore

#

ah nevermind, i guess they sold it since 😄

#

(hahahah, so the product might still exist, but half of the site is broken, so most likely it is dead)

supple hull
cloud knot
#

that is, you write code like swing on backend, and their rich client is rendering it 🙂

#

on needs to put this in context, this was in '00s, so AJAX was just starting and web UIs weren't that powerful yet

wind horizon
cloud knot
#

that was not an applet !

#

it was a Java Web Start app, which launched a client, which then rendered UI based on backend instructions 🙂

wind horizon
#

Hmm I thought it said it launched a Java applet?

cloud knot
#

oh, maybe they had a version which run like that

#

we ran it with Java Web Start for sure

wind horizon
#

I never heard of Java web start, but it's a hyperlink I can go read. 😆

cloud knot
#

Java Web Start is a file with JNLP extension, which is executed on your local computer and tells it to download an application from some URL and start it. Of course you are asked if you want to run it, download it etc. If you enable it for first time, second time it starts without questions

#

you had to have Java Runtime installed for it to work of course

#

In March 2018, Oracle announced it will not include Java Web Start in Java SE 11 (18.9 LTS) and later.

wind horizon
#

Ooh I do remeber seeing JNLP file once, but never did anything with Java and back at that time I was more of script kiddy than a programmer. Haha

#

Wow I didn't know Java was even supporting that stuff until 2018. I guess all those businesses running old apps though.

silk eagle
#

my supermicro board's IPMI uses java web start to redirect the console

cloud knot
#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start#Example

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<jnlp spec="1.0+" codebase="http://ultrastudio.org/upload" href="">
    <information>
        <title>Launch applet with Web Start</title>
        <vendor>Foo Bar Inc.</vendor>
        <offline-allowed/>
    </information>
    <resources>
        <j2se version="1.5+" href="http://java.sun.com/products/autodl/j2se"/>
        <jar href="Ray-2.3-4ca60e46-0956-3f22-983c-e3ed986dfd03.jar" main="true" />
    </resources>
    <applet-desc name="Ray diagram applet" main-class="raydiagramsapplet.Main" width="300" height="200">
    </applet-desc>
  <update check="background"/>
</jnlp>
#

not that complicated 🙂

#

says "wants this J2SE, run this JAR file, and this is description of our stuff" 😄

#

and you got a dialog like

security-warning-ws.png
wind horizon
#

Oh yeah that I remember lol

cloud knot
#

when you said yes, it downloaded and ran the JAR file, and that was it

wind horizon
#

It must have been wild to be in that Java industry when it surged like that, I remeber so many sites / apps being Java. It was one of the first things I installed on my computers so I could play web games and interact with my firewall etc. Haha

cloud knot
#

well, Java went through various phases too - Servlets, Struts, various other libraries, J2EE with original J2EE beans, then EJB3 and so on. The code some coworkers on backend are sometimes completely alien to me, stuff like streams & filters over entities, half the time i have no idea what i look at.

trail remnant
# supple hull Man I’m so glad I’m not dev ops, I’m glad dev ops exists but I just get to do my...

The reality is that the only functional deployment style is DevOps. If you don't care about deployments, then you're going to have a hard time deploying changes that are valuable. If you have a dedicated Ops team that supports everything you do, that looks like it works, but you create a whole set of communication problems between the two teams. Which is what DevOps solves. It's not about being on call. It's about making sure that Ops decisions make development work easier, and Dev decisions make it easier to operate and upgrade your system. If Ops and Dev don't work together, everything breaks down or becomes a mire of bureaucracy.

supple hull
#

Usually I'm working with back end as a service which essentially outsources devops to another company, I'm a UX dev and while I can and do deployments, a lot of the nitty gritty is not in my sphere of concern. I have worked in larger projects where there's a clear devops team managing envs and such and its wonderful but mostly I'm just making a docker setup that mirrors the service I'm using.

nocturne galleon
#

i have actually never written automated tests, the reason for that mostly is that most of the stuff i do is either really hard to automate tests for (such as when using a runtime bytecode manipulation library, writing plugins for other software that can be used together with tens or hundreds of other plugins, or even both at the same time), or just small enough that automated tests wouldn't give a meaningful benefit

trail remnant
#

Wow. Outsourcing DevOps is an anti-pattern I didn't imagine existed.

hollow basalt
#

yeaaa, definitely not devops. it's now simply ops

trail remnant
#

DevOps is a better name than "agile", but it's not a perfect name. Really, it should be Dev+Ops, even though some people treat it like some separate thing, like you have Dev, Ops, and DevOps. But really, you just have Dev and Ops, and how close they collaborate determines if you're DevOps or not.

#

Here's a great resource that shows how you screw up DevOps by having various business organization screwups that somehow get renamed as "DevOps".
https://web.devopstopologies.com

DevOps Topologies

The primary goal of any DevOps effort within an organisation is to improve the delivery of value for customers and the business, not in itself to reduce costs, increase automation, or drive everything from configuration management; this means that different organisations might need different team structures in order for effective Dev and Ops col...

#

It also shows the effective organizational models that lead to useful DevOps.

#

Note: It's kinda ironic that Google's model is rated under the "effective" category. I find this ironic, because Google has explicit handoff between Dev and Ops, which DevOps is designed to eliminate. I think this could be the secret behind why Google has trouble launching new products (Stadia, Google+) and why the Google Graveyard exists. Those are the exact types of problems you run into when there's a handoff between the team that develops applications and the team that deploys them.

wind horizon
# trail remnant DevOps is a better name than "agile", but it's not a perfect name. Really, it sh...

Yeah but I think it's pretty common place to now accept and use DevOps as a title. Usually this refers to an Ops person who is well versed in working with developers and modern deployment systems.

Its almost like hiring an ops person who understands and wants to work with devs, rather than pure ops.

I think the title is also often used to refer to someone who is a cloud engineer of sorts and good at working with public cloud deployments.

trail remnant
#

So does anyone want to take bets on how long before our entire industry starts creating meaningless certifications around DevOps?

wind horizon
#

They already exist 😆

trail remnant
#

Meaningless certs always exist, but currently they aren't a requirement for DevOps roles.

wind horizon
#

Oh as a requirement

trail remnant
#

But you basically can't get a job as a Scrum master or Agile anything without a cert.

#

I guess I should have clarified.

wind horizon
#

Honestly scrum masters are over rated imo.

#

Last 2 jobs didn't have one and I never noticed there wasn't one, but I had great team and product we were all in sync.

trail remnant
#

Agreed, but that doesn't prevent many companies from forcing them on people.

wind horizon
#

Yeah I feel like some companies get to fixed on how do X comoanies do it or what the "correct" process is. The whole idea of letting process get in the way and make the decision about how you work feels like it goes against exactly what agile was solving. Haha

trail remnant
#

Yeah. In a general sense, Agile has become the exact thing it was trying to stop.

#

Honestly, until our industry confronts the truth that we suck at communicating with management and organizing businesses, we'll just end up right back in this spot whenever DevOps moves from a development push to a management push.

#

It's musical chairs, but with company structure.

wind horizon
#

Yup we need essentially a DevMgmt movement. Since it's both sides, devs often are bad at communicating something in a none technical manner and Mgmt often is guilty of simply refusing to try and understand devs saying idk I'll never understand what they are saying.

#

Mgmt wants deadlines and deliverables and devs want freedom to be creative and solve problems that often can only be put into an estimate and not an exact science.

So many of my old business classes in college focused on how to compute your costs and lead times around factories. Development just doesn't fit into this and Mgmt needs to shift as well.

I do know some colleges started offering software engineering management degrees. Not sure what all is in them, but sounds like a good first step.

Although someone shouldn't need to get a degree just to learn how to manage devs. 😆

trail remnant
#

Honestly though, the problem of engineers vs management also goes back to the 1800s and the literal days of bridge building.

#

See the Tay Bridge Disaster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgGgkTO-cw

YouTube
Brick Immortar
Disaster by Design: The Tay Bridge Collapse

The Tay Bridge Disaster on the Firth of Tay near Dundee, Scotland from December of 1879. Winds were partly to blame but the chain of failures was long, and completely preventable at many points along the way.

Yes, this is a reupload... see pinned comment for details.

The History of The Forth Bridge: https://youtu.be/0tEEVNHbUWQ
The Quebec Brid...

▶ Play video
#

Actually, the Quebec bridge collapse is a much better example of bad management directly leading to disaster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4DTMe0huXM
Nothing is new here. Even things like the recent Miami condo collapse show how negligence in management and cheap cost cutting measures can backfire horribly.

YouTube
Brick Immortar
Ego in Engineering: The Quebec Bridge Collapse

The How & Why of The Quebec Bridge Disaster in 1907 on the Saint Lawrence River in Canada. A deep, twisted story of failure after unchecked, preventable failure that dragged on for years beforehand. The Second Collapse in 1916, receiving much less media attention was bizarre and nearly as tragic as the first.

Previous Video in this Series: http...

▶ Play video
trail remnant
#

That creator has a video where he reviews the Hyatt Regency Walkway Collapse. He says:

Rarely is a single party or a point of failure if ever to blame. The breakdowns in communication, the group think, fragile egos, prioritization of schedule or cost over proper calculations, or mismanagement of responsibility. Chains of failure like these are where you'll find your true need for more awareness.

#

The truth is, no industry is immune to human failures. Only constant diligence and caution can prevent those problems from occurring.

#

Honestly, when you see disaster looming, and no one is taking action, the best thing to do is to distance yourself from the situation. Find a way to leave. It's the only way to keep yourself out of the fallout.

cloud knot
nocturne galleon
cloud knot
#

sorry, for some reason i was completely in web browser mindset

nocturne galleon
#

all good :)

nova yacht
#

Node.JS
Does anybody knows when i enter npm install. It will stuck here [..................] / idealTree:ganm: sill idealTree buildDeps then i am getting this error:

npm ERR! syscall getaddrinfo
npm ERR! errno ENOTFOUND
npm ERR! network request to http://registry.npmjs.org/canvas failed, reason: getaddrinfo ENOTFOUND proxy.company.com
npm ERR! network This is a problem related to network connectivity.
npm ERR! network In most cases you are behind a proxy or have bad network settings.
npm ERR! network
npm ERR! network If you are behind a proxy, please make sure that the
npm ERR! network 'proxy' config is set properly.  See: 'npm help config'
npm ERR! A complete log of this run can be found in:```
How can i install this?
night flame
nova yacht
next cipher
#

the output says what to do

#

check that your proxy config is correct

nova yacht
#

I have tried a few changes already. Still unable to install. I am getting this now.

npm ERR! 400 Bad Request - GET https://registry.npmjs.org/canvas```
#

Success, i just had to delete the whole .npmrc file and install again.

wind horizon
#

The npmrc can point to a specific registry, for example if your company has a private registry instead of using the public one.

Also it can have tokens and such for auth.

midnight wind
#

as a system service?

#

if it's a systemd service just do journalctl -u servicename -f

#

how is it running in the background

#

Ah, so whatever that browser thing uses, which idk

wind horizon
#

If it's docker normally it's run as the last part of the docker file, but it is possible to also connect to the docker container and manually run something as a user.

#

If it's just running inside the docker image you normally can just do:

docker <name> logs

If you want to watch them in real time you can use the follow cmd. Just add -f or --follow

visual path
supple hull
#

It's hard to remember a time before docker. I just got my M1 Pro for dev last night, today I fired up the site i'm working on but had to nuke the containers so it'd get the ARM64 ones. No biggie, just nuke everything and pull the latest DB for local and jam it into my local environment. Who cares I just went from Intel -> ARM? Docker doesn't.

wind horizon
#

Ah the classic table overflow strikes LTT store. 😆

unknown.png
supple hull
silk eagle
wind horizon
supple hull
# wind horizon Also when everything was an iframe, I remember some sites even putting side nav ...

I did that, I had PlayStation cheats site and partly out of data concerns. This was like 1998 and I got the entire template down to about 19k. I ended up leasing two servers as the cheapest place had a weird 2 for 1 deal. I didn’t need the storage just they offered 50 GB a month of transfer and the yahoo listing meant I got insane traffic. I found out banner ads paid, not much but as HSer it was more anyone else I knew. So I put the html on one server and the graphics and the frames on another.

#

The yahoo listing was like gold, and meant numbers than sound made up, 150k unique visitors, about 1,000,000 visitors. I’d always get hate mail from kids with AOL addresses, of course loaded with racial and homophobic insults. Pretty much made me forever not want to be a “gamer” and when the big mess happened years ago I was kinda shocked that people were shocked. Seemed right on point to me after years of just annoying people emailing me hateful stuff.

cloud knot
wind horizon
#

Guess it was mostly frame and frameset for stuff like the side nave, I guess forgot about plain frames since they have been dead for so long. Haha

nocturne galleon
#

I made a discord bot amd shut it off but its still on how do i fix this

midnight wind
#

discord won't host the bot for you

nocturne galleon
#

Ik

#

Its hosted but its still on after i shut it off

midnight wind
#

oh it's still on?

nocturne galleon
#

I shut the bot of for updates on the code but its still on

midnight wind
#

where are you hosting

nocturne galleon
#

Im hosting ot on my pc

midnight wind
#

how

nocturne galleon
#

Like a minecraft server

midnight wind
#

no like how? docker? systemd service? screen?

nocturne galleon
#

Docker

#

Enless someone got my bot token

midnight wind
#

Run docker ps

#

see if any containers are up

nocturne galleon
#

I think someone got my bot token cause its saying playing android

random dagger
#

@nocturne galleon I'd reset your bot token

nocturne galleon
#

I did

#

It didn't fox it

#

Fix

random dagger
#

Did you just reset the token?

#

Like, just now?

nocturne galleon
#

I reset it when this started

random dagger
#

How long ago was that?

#

Because it takes about 5 minutes for Discord to count a bot as offline

nocturne galleon
#

A minute ago

#

But the status message changed

random dagger
#

I'd give it about 5 minutes, and if the bot is still online then maybe recreate the bot's app

#

But usually a token reset is good enough

nocturne galleon
#

The status changed when i turned it off

#

It was "watching for rule breakers"

#

But now it says playing android

#

Thats not in my code

random dagger
#

Are you absolutely sure you're looking at the right bot app?

nocturne galleon
#

Yes

random dagger
#

Hmm..

#

In that case I'd recommend deleting your bot's app and recreating it fresh

nocturne galleon
#

The bot went offline when i logged into the bots log

random dagger
#

I thought you were hosting it on your PC?

nocturne galleon
#

To see were it was being hosted

#

I am

random dagger
#

What do you mean by "logged into the bot's log" then?

nocturne galleon
#

I have a log that tells me were its being hosted

random dagger
#

Ah, right

#

Well I'd recreate the bot's app on the Discord developer panel and see if the issue persists

nocturne galleon
#

My log says it was hosted using bot commander

random dagger
#

Never heard of it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

lone vale
#

anyone here good with css?

random dagger
#

What's the question?

lone vale
#

so I found this css theme for firefox I really like the only issue is its teal, not red. (if u didnt know, firefox can accept css themes)

random dagger
#

Right

lone vale
#

I need to figure out how to find each piece of teal in the css code and change it to red

random dagger
#

That should be fairly simple - find out the hex color code of the teal

lone vale
random dagger
#

And just replace all instances of the hex color code with a red hex color code

lone vale
#

ok

nocturne galleon
#

@random dagger can u help me code a minecraft bot

random dagger
nocturne galleon
#

Whats easier

random dagger
#

Honestly, it depends what you want this Minecraft bot to do

#

Are you talking about a bot that imitates a Minecraft player? A bot that gives information about a Minecraft server?

nocturne galleon
#

Cutts trees for me

random dagger
#

Okay, so, for a task like that, you'd probably want to look at something like Baritone

#

It's a pathfinder bot that has an extensive (iirc) API

nocturne galleon
#

How do i host it

random dagger
#

That I can't answer as I don't know myself

midnight wind
#

Idk how you want it to integrate into discord

#

But in mc chat with baritone installed you would just do #mine oak_log

#

Idk exact syntax

hollow basalt
#

yea, so many bots already exist in MC, you wouldn't want to create one yourself unless you actually know how to

nocturne galleon
#

I dont know how

hollow basalt
#

then google mc bots

nocturne galleon
#

Well there is a problem idk how to download the code

#

Can u get the code

midnight wind
#

Bruh

hollow basalt
#

bruh

#

how old are you

midnight wind
#

We ain't your personal assistant

nocturne galleon
#

I don't know how to download it from gethib

#

Gethub

hollow basalt
#

cause that site doesn't exist

nocturne galleon
#

Github

midnight wind
#

For source code, just click the download button

#

For built ready to go builds go to releases tab

#

Just read the readme of the project

#

Ain't that hard

hollow basalt
#

^

nocturne galleon
#

I haven't been on a phone in a year

hollow basalt
#

and?

deft sigil
#

in python is there a way to loop over every item returned by dir(module)? somewhat like in this pseudocode:py props_data={} for fn in [method for method in dir(module) if not method.startswith('_')]: str_eval=f'module.{fn}({myvar})' props_data[fn]=ast.literal_eval(str_eval)

nocturne galleon
#

I dont like phones

deft sigil
# nocturne galleon I dont like phones

haha me neither well smartphones that is , but i have to use one so 99% of the time that is done with: Qtscrcpy, wich makes typing messages atleast a little bit more bearable

nocturne galleon
#

Go look at my pc

#

Pls

midnight wind
#

No

#

Anyway I need phone for 2fa

deft sigil
#

i dont do 2fa unless required by force in wich case i happely use my mail adress wich atleast can be done on the same device

midnight wind
#

I may eventually get a yibikey but like bitwarden free doesn't support it. I'll probably get the subscription, it's only 10 bucks a year

midnight wind
#

Doesn't need to be phone

#

But you usually have phone with you

#

Email 2fa is not the best

deft sigil
#

on windows i have ahk for my passwords and on linux autokey for my passwords 🙂

hollow basalt
#

looks cool

deft sigil
#

and no i never have my phone with me unless they remind me just before i leave that i need my phone

midnight wind
deft sigil
# hollow basalt what are you tring to achieve 😮

im trying to make a program that executes every function in a module stores its outcome in a dict , and i eahter write a line for every function in that module by hand or do it programaticly and if there were only 3 functions in that modulle id do them by hand but py [sys.stdout.write(f'{idx}: {item}\n') for idx,item in enumerate(dir(mypkg.mymodule))] gives me ~110 make that 90+ without the ones prefixed with a __

deft sigil
# midnight wind Really? I always do

mines always hooked up to my pc 🙂 for use with scrcpy so even when i leav , i use it like a landline phone , that can send messages , im not home im not picking up (but i am home most of the time so)

midnight wind
deft sigil
#

lol now it is yes , but

productimg.png
#

it wasnt always

midnight wind
#

cell phone

#

That clarifies it

#

But yeah ik, landlines were landlines

deft sigil
#

🙂 yes but when cell phones started i was really into them (all hail nokia 3210) but by the time smart phones came around ik was alreaade less convinced they were a good idea , then social media happened and i was one of the first ones to have a facebook account, i also was one of the first ones to stop using it and when the GDPR came around one of the fists ones to test that law and found it to be failing and i just deleted my account as an laternative, i cant write on a smartphone anyway , my brain has long lost the knowledge of where the keys are on a keyboard and for typing i opperate on muscle memory so anything involving typing on a smartphone i hate because of that , also im one of the few ones that never got addicted to social media because of it and im kind of happy about that

deft sigil
#

found a way to fix my probem btw: and tested it on the build in os.path module 😄 yeey :```py
def props(src):
props={}
exclude=['samefile','sameopenfile','samestat','commonpath']
fnx=[fn for item,fn in os.path.dict.items()if callable(fn) and item not in exclude and not item.startswith('')]
fnnames=[item for item,fn in os.path.dict.items()if callable(fn) and item not in exclude and not item.startswith('')]
for idx,fn in enumerate(fnx):
props[fnnames[idx]]=fn(src)

for idx,key in enumerate(props.keys()):
    print(key,'\t:\t',props[key])

props('/home')

#

or the same as above but with comprehensions as it should:py def props(src): props={} exclude=['samefile','sameopenfile','samestat','commonpath'] fnx=[(item,fn) for item,fn in os.path.__dict__.items()if callable(fn) and item not in exclude and not item.startswith('_')] props={fn[0]:fn[1](src) for idx,fn in enumerate(fnx)} [sys.stdout.write(f'{key}\t:\t{props[key]}\n') for idx,key in enumerate(props.keys())] props('/home')

deft sigil
#

srry im suffering form the desease , the computer disease as discribed by feynemann here :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTRVlUT665U#:~:text=mr. Frankel started,avoid the disease last update fixes for unexistent files eg :```py
def props(src) -> dict:
props={}
exclude=['samefile','sameopenfile','samestat','commonpath']
fnx=[(item,fn) for item,fn in os.path.dict.items()if callable(fn) and item not in exclude and not item.startswith('_')]
for fn in fnx:
try:
props[fn[0]]=fn1
except Exception as val:
props[fn[0]]=f'ERROR:{val}'
return props

tests=['/home/','~/.bashrc','/usr/src/linux','/root/.bashrc','..','$HOME']
for idx,path in enumerate(tests):
sys.stdout.write(f'\n\n{idx}: TESTING: {path}\n{"".ljust((len(path)+12),"#")}\n')
test=props(path)
[sys.stdout.write(f'{key.ljust(12)}\t:\t{test[key]}\n') for idx,key in enumerate(test.keys())]```

YouTube
Trev M
Los Alamos From Below -- Richard Feynman

Physicist Richard Feynman's personal experiences while working at Los Alamos during the Manhattan Project.

▶ Play video
twilit beacon
#

ok guys i am once again here to ask for help, i still am undecided on the lingo i would like to learn

#

i have tried html+css (and i realised they are borinf and stupid)

#

i have tried c++ and python (easier than html and more intresting)

#

but idk what to choose

midnight wind
#

html and css aren't programming languages

#

just markup

#

everything is for a different purpose

twilit beacon
#

javascript?

#

is coding or nah

#

im dumb sorry

midnight wind
#

javascript is mainly for web frontend. Browsers execute it. There's also now a lot of javascript runtimes for backend (node.js, deno) that are getting popular for server code

twilit beacon
#

i came here asking for help in choosing a lingo to settle on, can you maybe help me

midnight wind
#

depends what you want to do

twilit beacon
#

yeah hard to really say

#

idk

#

i must look up some job offerings

#

because i wouldnt want to choose a lingo that wouldnt help me in getting a job

midnight wind
#

web dev, learn the html+css+js stack, that's basics. For an actual job you want to know a js framework like react, vue, angular

#

not to mention knowledge of basic networking

#

and probably also css framworks like bootstrap

twilit beacon
#

yeah i tried that but its just a torture for me to learn

midnight wind
#

welcome to development, nothings easy

twilit beacon
#

other lingos are much more intresting

midnight wind
#

c++ is a pain as well

twilit beacon
#

its not that its hard, its just boring and that is the way i think its hard

midnight wind
#

advanced python also gets interesting

twilit beacon
#

where could i use python

midnight wind
#

python is more of scripting, but it can be used to develop full on applications as well

#

ansible

twilit beacon
#

wait i really need to look some iob offerings up, i cant just choose blindly

#

job*

midnight wind
silk eagle
twilit beacon
midnight wind
#

since it compiles to html, css, js

twilit beacon
#

therefore js is like a thing i can replace with python

silk eagle
#

no

midnight wind
#

well no

#

js runs on browser

#

python doesn't

#

python gets compiled to js

silk eagle
#

python can be used for hosting web stuff, js is for making web stuff work

midnight wind
#

django handles that

midnight wind
#

django exists

twilit beacon
#

so django is like an interpreter

midnight wind
#

flask

#

no

silk eagle
#

time to google what django does because ive only heard of it in name 1 sec

midnight wind
#

never used it, not a fan of python

silk eagle
#

oh django is sweet

twilit beacon
#

yeah idk python is quite a versatile lingo, huh?

#

or nah

silk eagle
#

yes

midnight wind
#

yes

#

I like it for scripting things I need

#

but mot for like a project

twilit beacon
#

and its for ai?

silk eagle
#

its a master of none language except its a master at being master of none

silk eagle
twilit beacon
#

so ig i was right when i first tried python

#

c++ wasnt that bad, its was just picky with the syntax

silk eagle
midnight wind
#

things like tensorflow have good support in python, but those are really made in C and then python can reference and call them, because python is kinda slow

silk eagle
#

yea python itself is really slow but has a lot of C builtins that work at C-speed

twilit beacon
#

in your oppinion what would be a lingo that would be used a lot in jobs or very searched for

silk eagle
#

python is pretty popular right now, javascript is aswell, java (different from javascript) is popular aswell, c#/c/c++, i think typescript exists aswell

twilit beacon
#

a cool combo would then be python and some c lingo eh?

midnight wind
#

learn cobal KEKW

silk eagle
#

i think the pairs would be like

#

javascript/typescript | python/C/C++ | C#/Java(?) |

#

but the C languages are pretty versatile and used in a lot of things

midnight wind
#

C# is closer to Java than C

#

C# is microsoft's version of java basically

twilit beacon
#

ig ill go with python

#

and some other combo

#

definitley

silk eagle
hollow basalt
supple hull
#

I still need to use TypeScript, just typing variables at its core is a big win for writing JS and not getting unexpected results

#

I know it has a lot of syntactic sugar

nocturne raptor
#

How do I get the resulting last 3 numbers to be seperated by commas?

midnight wind
nocturne raptor
#

is there a way to do without a string?

midnight wind
# 


print(f'The last three numbers on the list are {last_numbers[2]}, {last_numbers[1]}, and {last_numbers[0]}')
#

@nocturne raptor

#

theoredically this works, didn't test

nocturne raptor
#

the guy who told me to do this said I should use more % and // as a hint

silk eagle
nocturne raptor
#

input

silk eagle
#

so like they input, say, 2345 and then you want to get 345?