deft hearth
Light units and infantry such as soldier tangos whatever (and some trucks) get a lower upkeep cost than 1
No? I think 2 soldiers and 1 tank are not equal, you should have more unit density and would make fun for idk RUNNER spam stuff which would spice games or smthng like that maybe.
chrome igloo
infantry upkeep has kinda felt bad, maybe we can bring back some mechanic where they don't use upkeep in the post bunkers
deft hearth
Was that a thing
Cool
Its just not good to me that infantry costs 1 upkeep
By how fast they die it isnt fun
It has to be fun so ppl play
grand estuary
Or... just leave them at 1, then increase everything else, as well as total upkeep for the same effect?
deft hearth
Isnt that dumb
deft hearth
Good point
grand estuary
What I am saying is basically doing the reverse for the same effect.
Like, let's say that a tank is 2 upkeep right now, and a soldier is 1, but you want to make soldier .5 so that you can have 4 soldiers for the same upkeep as a single tank.
Instead, you could leave the soldiers at 1 upkeep, but make the tanks 4 upkeep. Then you still have 4 soldiers for the same upkeep as a single tank.
Now, since that doubles the upkeep cost of non-infantry (AKA everything else), then just double the maximum upkeep total for your army.
Either way could work, just depends on how the devs would prefer the numbers to work out if they were to do this kind of balance change.
chrome igloo
dunno if it was a thing but it'd be a cool thing
frosty stream
Like, let's say that a tank is 2 upkeep right now, and a soldier is 1, but you w...
Going by your example you could even simply just slide the decimal point over by 1. Like 2 (tank) becomes 20(tank) and 1 (soldier) becomes 10 (soldier) then readjust soldiers to value 5 so your upkeep ratio is 20:5 or 4:1 thus 1 tank (20) = 4 soldiers (5+5+5+5).
deft hearth
Just change the int to float
vernal grail
I think it's already a float. It's more a UI complication which I'm not sure we need.
I actually want to revisit upkeep and see if we can just make it unit count instead. Balance units in other ways. But let you build tons of stuff if you can manage to do it.
chrome igloo
if we increased all upkeep values by 10 for example we can easily have decimal places to 1 point by just having 1 as the lowest again
doesn't have to be 10, even just doubling it all would give us effectively "half an upkeep"
vernal grail
But do we need upkeep? It felt like a bandaid to keep things under control.
I'd almost rather have power generation which affects build speed. Army size has an uncapped count but production slows down. Few units drawing power means you can build new ones faster.
chrome igloo
removing upkeep would be fun
i want to see crazy games played with 100s of units on each side
grand estuary
Where mechs get melted in seconds? That specific part doesn't sound so fun lol.
A power generation mechanic that affects build speed sounds interesting though.
Kind of like some sort of catch up mechanic in a way, players with less units can build faster than those with more.
chrome igloo
100s of units can be spread, what if ubers are used?
and maybe mechs should get shreaded in such games xD
whopper could increase mech respawn
frosty stream
But do we need upkeep? It felt like a bandaid to keep things under control.
I'd...
Perhaps this idea would encourage the use of the socketed power generator. (edit 1) I'm staring to like this idea and can tie into other game dynamics. Perhaps items and parts with power stats. ( edit 2 ) Maybe additional game dynamics down the road like looting map wreckage of iron hand units for power enhancers during in game matches. ( edit 3 ) power generation boost cubes? ( okay im going off the rails now, I'll stop )
weak wave
my personal preference would be to make max upkeep a fixed value regardless of outpost count as a comeback mechanic
vernal grail
I might be in the minority but I really liked the energy mechanic in Total Annihilation.
We unsuccessfully tried a version of that early on u think. Couldn't dial it in right.
stoic zinc
But do we need upkeep? It felt like a bandaid to keep things under control.
I'd...
Heavier units like Goliath and Devastator would obviously require more power then, which encourages people to saturate the army with lower upkeep units to take advantage of the faster build speed, and then finish it off with heavy units to solidify a big push.
grand estuary
my personal preference would be to make max upkeep a fixed value regardless of o...
Right, the game definitely needs a better sense of being able to make a comeback, IMO.
weak wave
Total Annihilation only consumes resources while units are actively building. Airmech's core gameplay revolves around ordering/building very few units at a time. Mimicking that system in practice is either going to be literally the same as upkeep, or a limitless match where your only constraint is build time. Simultaneous queues just don't work well in Airmech.
I suspect that removing cost/upkeep restrictions is more likely to slow the game down, rather than speed it up
as it stands, upkeep numbers are exclusively significant when you're maxed out
so adjusting upkeep to any unit only serves to alter the "ideal" composition once the board position has reached a standstill
radical idea: since upkeep is currently determined by outposts, and outposts can only be captured with infantry, what happens if you make all infantry zero upkeep?
stoic zinc
radical idea: since upkeep is currently determined by outposts, and outposts can...
Initial thought is SAM, Brutes and Shooters among other infantry being more oppressive. At the start of the game that upkeep don't matter anyway. It's the late game they can become nasty as a filler. But that might be okay?
Especially since anti-light units are already prevalent. Gemini, Tesla, Gattys
AoE damage is not scarce either
vernal grail
Total Annihilation only consumes resources while units are actively building. A...
Didn't things also consume energy just while existing? I remember if you did a push and got wiped out, you could rebuild really fast.
I would love to see larger numbers of units. Ken increased the internal limit recently.
weak wave
some endgame energy weapons used energy to fire, like the bertha cannons, but most units were zero energy. Construction units were slightly positive income
more units could be really cool but requires corresponding buffs to mechs. But mechs can be really powerful is units are more expoendable
chrome igloo
the metal wrecks where salvagable :D
deft hearth
Oh yeah would be cool that when the enemy controls all the outposts you got a bit of a help to comeback
maybe all map nuked
chrome igloo
sounds boring, if enemy controls all outposts they are doing a good job and should be rewarded for it
i dont like the concept of too many come back mechanics
salvaging wrecks is already really strong
A lot of the competetive pvp battles are keenly aware the enemy can come back if a mistake is made which is why some games can take a while to close properly because there already is lots of oppertunity for comebacks and the winning team want to secure a victory
grand estuary
more units could be really cool but requires corresponding buffs to mechs. But ...
Exactly. I don't know about others, but personally part of the reason I enjoy this game is due to the top-down Twin Stick Shooter aspect of controlling a mech, and I'd prefer if focus on such numerous amounts of units did not completely overtake that.
vernal grail
Exactly. I don't know about others, but personally part of the reason I enjoy th...
I think with all the new orders things it should be fairly easy to make really big pushes with units. I'd be happy to see this.
Remember we can not just balance the AirMech power, but the power they gain as they level. It's a 7 dimensional balancing challenge when you factor in parts too. 🙂
grand estuary
Oh the command stuff will definitely make ordering units pretty smooth.
Would be interesting to see how much games escalate with both unit and mech power.
I just want to be able to blow up a bunch of stuff with my mech and not get immediately melted as soon as I land.
weak wave
lol, maybe inflation is a solution.
vernal grail
I would like it if the whole flow of the game is around having windows of opportunity, and it cycles depending on how much of the map you capture, what level units you can start building, and the power scaling of your AirMech. Just imagine if AirMechs got progresively stronger, so your giant army doesn't mean anything since a level 15 mech would be a terror.
chrome igloo
i was thinking about what if level 20 cap was removed
i like the idea mechs becoming mega strong xD but not at the start,
if pilots/items are made stronger people should be able to make any opportunity that is a proactive strategic decision
vernal grail
I mean set a target, how many minutes into a match do you want to see the final episode of (pick whatever Gundam show) where the mech just goes berserk on everything?
at what minute mark do we just insert a free Uber into everyone's build queue, and give it high armor/dps?
grand estuary
What if such a target was when a certain amount of total units on the map was reached?
vernal grail
No, that's not the point. Conceptually when do we want X to happen, not the exact condition. The mech leveling curve and power can be balanced for this.
I do not want hidden complexity.
grand estuary
Oh, ok, alright. Understood.
I guess that depends on how long matches are generally expected to last and how common such an event is supposed to be.
unkempt pilot
I had a side suggestion unrelated to upkeep for comeback mechanics - make outposts infantry healing and energy generation based on distance from your own outpost.
So when you capture enemy outpost close to fort you spend a lot of effort to keep it yours.
It even makes sense from real world physics side of things. The longer your electricity lines the more energy you spend on transportation.
vernal grail
I had a side suggestion unrelated to upkeep for comeback mechanics - make outpos...
Possible, but hard to communicate.
I was thinking if there is some simple total power generation number, and a total army power number, so you can get a percentage. You start the game with more power generation than your army of course, so you can build at 100% speed. If your total army power gets too high, you'll see this start to drop. 90%, 54%.
So if you don't capture more Outposts, you can keep building but every new unit is going to push down your build speed. To miserable levels, 0% if you just keep going.
With a system like this I would expect to have faster building as a baseline, but it slows down if you overbuild without securing territory.
The nice thing is that even if you have no units left, no territory, you should be able to build really fast, at least get some units out, gives the hope of a comeback though doesn't bias towards it.
unkempt pilot
🤔
grand estuary
I really like the sound of that.
That seems like the kind of fundamental core gameplay change that could significantly improve the game without altering the spirit of the game.
Could your mech strength/level ups be tied to such a mechanic?
vernal grail
Could your mech strength/level ups be tied to such a mechanic?
You can do anything, but I'm not sure it would feel right. Communicating these states to the players is the hard part. How much stuff you own affecting power and build is easy.
grand estuary
Makes sense.
weak wave
hmm OK so upkeep is a decay function for a global "build speed" variable. Could be interesting
gleaming forge
this discussion started out suggesting fractional upkeep increments and eventually ended up suggesting to bring back the power system. airmech is the twilight zone.
if you bring back power system, instead of affecting build speed, it should affect structure energy regen
but then structure energy would need to be rebalanced. either way build speeds would need to be rebalanced in the other scenario
so lots of rebalance would have to happen. but that's obvious i'd hope.
vast saffron
I was actually thinking today about something very similar to this. Imagine if the creep spawner, instead of spawning 1 creep, spawned 4-5. A couple spawners could produce a horde of infantry which I think could be cool. And counters like gatties, t45s, and Geminis exist so it shouldn't get out of hand too easily
vast saffron
Light units and infantry such as soldier tangos whatever (and some trucks) get a...
.
deft hearth
Wait no
Imo bot spawners are op for most situations, i should start using it, but doing that would be insane and i highly disagree
Just uh some SAM or Soldier pushes / runner rocketer whatever would be fun to do but you can't as they take such a ginormous ammount of upkeep
2 soldier vs 1 gatty
Soldier from 1 to 0.2
SAM to 0.5
Brute ITS GOOD AT 2 UPKEEP THAT BLUD IS INSANE
All other infantry except sergeant i hate that mf down to 0.1 upkeep
Ik this will snowball into an ungodly ammount of spam but if we think about more reasonable upkeep numbers we can balance them and remove shooters entirely from the game.
F*ck shooters
🖕🖕🖕🖕 to shooters
Disgusting unit
weak wave
infantry still cost credits and build time. Dropping their upkeep is unlikely to result in some new unholy infantry meta with how easy they're countered.
chrome igloo
I think it would, for base defence at least, having a few dudes stood around is really helpful in defending posts, especially since you can command them to take back the post. the upkeep would have to be like 0.1 for most infantry though, I think it is something that could be done, we just need to take the leap of inflating all upkeep values so we can have more granularity
deft hearth
Setting up a unit limit besides upkeep
Low upkeep per unit but units by themselves have a limit
Maybe 30?
chrome igloo
arbitary mechanics are no good
vernal grail
Remember with the recent change to allow a lot more units we don't have to worry about that.
The catch is you can't auto deploy anymore, so there's a friction in deploying a lot of units.
Anyone remember the tech lab units? You needed to have them so you could build some other units. This was in the 8 slot days, it became pretty annoying because to build high level units you needed that plus the unit.
But the nice thing was you could destroy the enemy tech lab and stop their ability to make high level units.
weak wave
when Goliaths were still a straight upgrade to Longhorn in every respect, tech labs felt like a necessary evil.
now there's a theme that higher level units give you better upkeep efficiency but less credit efficiency
gleaming forge
#bringbacktechpods2024
unkempt pilot
As well as SAM spam
We already had SAM spam that's why it got nerfed long time ago
