math-and-meta

[crystal charm]

it's probably the highest throughput traffic part of the whole network

[vapid gorge]

yeah the value of turbines goes up based on the traffic it's true

[oblique hollow]

@fringe pawn Re: Instant Scrap step size - it definitely is NOT a 1 step reduction

[fringe pawn]

@oblique hollow I meant vs sloppy+electrode.

[oblique hollow]

well you still have alu solution refinery

doesnt matter if normal or sloppy

i see at least 4 refineries for electrode + sloppy vs 1 refinery and 1 blender for instant

[vapid gorge]

You can halve the middle option's solution/refinery just about with electrode so it becomes about 0.55 Refineries vs 0.4 blender/ref on the bottom.

[oblique hollow]

the middle one already is electrode

[vapid gorge]

sorry, I meant sloppy solution

[oblique hollow]

that yes.

though measuring stuff in "0.4 blender / refineries" and "0.55 refineries" is ultimately weird, youd have to do it with a full ratio

and then compare m2 of space taken up

[vapid gorge]

... not really? Assuming you change the middle to sloppy you get 60 scrap per 0.55 refinery.

It's a unit. It's a very specific unit sure...

Niche might be a better word

[vapid gorge]

and m^2 or m^3 have different values depending what you're going for

[oblique hollow]

i prefer a slightly weirder way of comparing: weighted building volume per recipe speed and efficiency

[vapid gorge]

I feel volume is a bit iffy. Depending on what you're doing you might prefer height being taken up or width.

[oblique hollow]

i know volume is iffy but you cant ignore verticality

[vapid gorge]

Sure but using more verticality might have zero value or lots of value right?

[oblique hollow]

if you want to factor out volume, you divide the end result by the building height again

[vapid gorge]

But that goes into design which is both subjective and terrain based

[oblique hollow]

i did an example for iron on paper once

1 is normal, 2 is pure, 3 is iron alloy

with respective building volumes

[vapid gorge]

Oh I 100% believe it but all volumes not, in practice, equal value.

Ah real example- the middle two options you gave above kinda trades 0.35 refinery for 0.2 blenders. I'd take the refineries every time because they work a lot better with my building designs.

[oblique hollow]

fair, i prefer instant because less piping and also, i dont use turbo, so i have sulfur on hand

and compactness really goes well with my building style

[vapid gorge]

Are you using all bauxite available? Because I still think there's a lot of spots that the increase in infrastructure/logistics cancel's out the buildings saved

More than cancels it if you're using trains

[oblique hollow]

no im not using it all.

but also in electrode's case, you gotta do some oil transport

[vapid gorge]

Ah yeah fair. I think even if you try to localize bauxite as much as you can you'd be looking at a lot more buildings moving coal/sulfur around.

As for oil transport.. 2 pipes in a bus under my train line. I love it. I was giving Electrode the eye a bit at first and then realised it was much easier than moving coal.

But yeah, if you target the bauxite where both coal and sulfur aren't a pain... SURE... I'll give you Instant Scrap being ok 😛

[fringe pawn]

This goes back to what I mentioned about location being a factor. For Gold Coast where you have oil and bauxite next to each other, it's great.

(playing board games, will check back later}

[wintry coral]

Guys whats the point of mk3 miner being fully overclocked if there is no conveyor belts that can support that flow?

[wind spade]

to make people think about it and clock it to proper speed for 780 😛

[wintry coral]

I thought there was a way to split the flow right at the beginning to not waste it, but i guess there is not 😦

[vapid gorge]

It's also good to have pure nodes before mk5 belts just to get as much as you can out of them and for less power

[wind spade]

there's no waste, resources are infinite. And there's tons of nodes around the world

[wintry coral]

I understand that, but when (numbers are not exact) your fully overclocked miner producing a 100 more resources than maxed out belt can take i consider it a waste 🙂

[vapid gorge]

You don't fully overclock it then

[fringe pawn]

It was the case that excess overclocking in this way wasted power, but it sounds like U6 will change that

[fringe pawn]

Regarding sloppy+electrode (S+E) and instant scrap. Because bauxite has no other uses besides becoming scrap, I'm working off the assumption of maximizing 3120 ores (4 pure nodes). Under these conditions, I see 71 buildings for S+E and 62 for instant scrap. Not a dramatic difference, though I'm not accounting for the byproduct resin, as arguably that's part of plastic production. I am counting water extractors.

Overclocking water extractors, production buildings, and using nodes of varying purities doesn't seem to favor either approach much. At a glance I maintain instant scrap isn't much simpler, and resource proximity is a good deciding factor.

[oblique hollow]

water scarcity is a good consideration, as instant takes roughly 1/3 of sloppy + electrode

also, coal of course

you pay roughly 10 sulfur / min for 60 scrap per min (which is either 40 or 30 ingots/min)

soooo droning sulfur in seems a valid choice

especially since you can then straight up make batteries for the drones

instant + default battery recipe is a compact but also sulfur heavy choice

but eh, its not that bad all in all, with the sulfur

no matter what you do, unless you use turbo, you can do all the shit you want and not run out of sulfur

[fringe pawn]

Thinking about it more broadly, the building numbers we're talking about in either case aren't much. Building count for aluminum is dwarfed by things like wire, quickwire, and so forth. I think the only truly complex thing in either case is the water byproduct, and if you don't understand that, neither will be easy.

[oblique hollow]

oh instant is definitely easy

its 1 to 1

you can feed it directly to the acid refinery

in an ideal world where the loading bug doesnt exist, this is very simple

[fringe pawn]

You can clock S+E the same way.

[oblique hollow]

yeah but i mean, no matter how you adjust instant scrap, its always 1 to 1

no weird numbers any time

1 blender and one refinery, percentage always the same

[fringe pawn]

That's fair. Looking at my 4 pure node example, I'd probably clock it for 10 machines each step.

[vapid gorge]

@oblique hollow - whenever you're around - this is what I was talking about for how I tend to deal with bottom feeding. @boreal shuttle if you were curious how I tend to the issue.

[wind spade]

that doesn't prevent the issue of "stuff not working because pipes not full" though, right?

[vapid gorge]

These two edited pipes include some of the changes I sometimes have to do when the 2 basic systems don't work

[vapid gorge]

Between the styles the pipes DONT get 'not full'.

[wind spade]

fluid loss on load bug?

[vapid gorge]

oh fluid loss sure but as long as I flood the system that's not an issue. This is mostly to stop sloshing and backflow from underfeeding

[wind spade]

well it's an issue if you don't have overproduction 🤷‍♂️

but yeah, if you flood the system first, it should be fine in most cases

[vapid gorge]

Ah no overproduction solves that yeah, but with underfeeding I've found that even overproduction doesn't help because of the intense sloshing from underfed systems

[vapid gorge]

I'm also not 100% why the top system works.

For example I've got a cat refining station with 3 separate manifolds.

2 of them use the unmodified top form.
For some reason no matter what I did the third one could never balance out no matter how I flooded it ect ect

I had to use the modifications on the 2 later pictures to get it to continually produce. and I have no idea

I think the main form of it helps because it has the manifold loop that is always helpful AND the machines are fed by the lower pipe in the manifold as it gets priority flow from the top pipe. I think.

[vapid gorge]

I suppose I should add that with this set up I seem to also manage to get 600 flow on mk2 pipes even with the bottom feeding.

Maybe I should have led with that XD

[native crow]

Is there a chart or anything that shows the efficiency of oil use with making plastic and rubber then power or vice versa?

[wind spade]

what kind of efficiency are we talking about?

[vapid gorge]

Off hand none I know but you can eyeball it pretty well. If youre just looking at the recycled recipes with the diluted fuel chain it’s 4x the output of the basic recipes

[wind spade]

if oil to power, then diluted fuel wins

if oil to plastic/rubber, then diluted fuel (+ recycled recipes) also win 😛

[vapid gorge]

Yeah, basically if you’re looking the maximise oil the first steps are always turn it to HOR, then blended diluted fuel

[wind spade]

or packaged, if you're earlier and don't have blenders 🤷‍♂️

[native crow]

I see yes. Blender was what I wasn't factoring in thanks!

[vapid gorge]

I find packaged diluted annoying enough that waiting on blended is just easier but it is an option.

[wind spade]

I like that 1:1:1 setup so much and was sad that they invalidated it with blended

[vapid gorge]

1 1 1 with no clock changes?

[wind spade]

yeah

[vapid gorge]

Oh that's kinda neat

[wind spade]

2 packagers, 1 refinery

and also 3:4 iirc on HOR -> diluted

[wind spade]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=01yGGAsHR6EkzF3QJyDH

[native crow]

Why are you packaging and unpacking?

[wind spade]

because that's how diluted packaged fuel works

it converts HOR into pakcaged fuel

[native crow]

I see, that turns hor into fuel 1:1

[wind spade]

1:2

[native crow]

I found a chart on the wiki, fuel page

[wind spade]

so you need to unpackage it and then package water for the diluted packaged fuel

[ruby dock]

omg, I have 2 water tanks with a total of about 1 tank worth of water between them. They are only connected to each other and no longer to any water input. The water is swapping from one to the other and back again

one tank empties into the other, then it swaps and the other back into the first

[frosty owl]

I wonder how I never had sloshing issues... O.o

[ruby dock]

fixed with a valve facing away from each tank

[vapid gorge]

You're weird 😛

[vapid gorge]

Using water tanks where they aren't needed can cause a lot of troubles. Careful with them.

[oblique hollow]

Buffers be weird like that

[wicked tinsel]

out of curiosity

do tanks fill pipes completely or % wise

[median heath]

Should be complete fill/flow provided the buffer is full enough.

[wicked tinsel]

🤔

ie. if output head lift is > pipe height, would the pipe be completely full?

[wind spade]

if buffer is 60% full, it fills pipes up to 60%

buffer is just a large pipe essentially

[wicked tinsel]

so its % based

too bad i guess

[wind spade]

afaik that's what @oblique hollow told me

[wicked tinsel]

i was thinking how to put buffer before priority junction

[oblique hollow]

depends

liquid or gas?

[wicked tinsel]

but it seem moving it above junction will do the trick

liquid

[oblique hollow]

below their minimum volume (75m3 or 300 m3) its % bases

above its full

[wicked tinsel]

hmm

[wind spade]

oh new knowledge

[oblique hollow]

thats what makes equalizers work

[wicked tinsel]

i had priority junction like this, but it somehow tended to fill the buffer

[median heath]

I knew something Greeny didn't 🎊

[wicked tinsel]

however, it seem to work fine when its like this

but maybe it was some bug

[oblique hollow]

depends, how much did it fill

[wicked tinsel]

it managed to fill completely

which should not happen

[oblique hollow]

dont forget, any empty pipe is effectively a "sink"

[wicked tinsel]

right side connects to nitric acid, it should eat ~320 water and then ~288 is returned back to buffer after uranium

[oblique hollow]

why even do vip with that setup

also, vip is a bit iffy at times, thats why i recommend a pump detectly on its inputs

[frosty owl]

Or put a pump right after the buffer. The effect should be the same

[wicked tinsel]

i kinda want it to be able to stop and resume, thus the buffer

i guess i could put limit on the filling pipe, but then it will break on load wont it

since it wont be able to catch up the missing water if it runs at 100%

[oblique hollow]

vip not needed, if you do base non-fissile, its one to one anyway

and yes i know i know, 5 m³ loss stuff

[dusty lintel]

just made my first flawless iron miner ✅

[ivory peak]

thats dope 🙂 i luv color coded pictures explaining im still learning 😂 ty for sharing that 🙂

[oblique hollow]

you might wanna check the pins in this channel then

there is an entire booklet full of funny pictures of pipes

proof that adhered is best plate

[ivory peak]

@oblique hollow thank you muchly i will 🙂 !

[native crow]

Adhere is the slowest and most energy expensive version a cording to wiki

[oblique hollow]

wiki is dumdum

yes, it is slow

but has great efficiency

if power is your concern here, your priority is kinda off

[wind spade]

power and speed is usually irrelevant in lategame, resources are what's important

[native crow]

Fair enough. Also wiki has two different sections, one says it has the highest energy cost and another the lowest. So not sure what the 240 MJ number means

[oblique hollow]

MJ are worthless imo

its a supposed way to measure the amount of power spent per item made

[wind spade]

MJ = megajoule

[oblique hollow]

its a direct consequence of a slow recipe

[wind spade]

1 MJ is providing 1 MW over 1 s

[oblique hollow]

since slow recipes still have a constant power demand, you "burn more fuel per item"

in essence, it says "how much fuel do you need to burn to make this item"

[native crow]

But the second table says adhere is the cheapest energy.

I wonder if the 240 is based just in the final recipe, not whole process

[ornate shoal]

it's assemblers power consumption (15 mw) * time per item in seconds. pretty useless number

not useless but it doesn't include previous steps

once you include entire chain, then adhered seems to be cheapest but wiki is quite biased towards resource efficiency, so you shouldn't trust it blindly

[topaz hedge]

Wiki may still have some of the old "don't use oil; oil is limited" mindset.

personally, I really like steel coated + adhered, because it's easy to do at a large scale.

[fringe pawn]

Coke steel ingot goes nicely with the above, as well.

[tropic hawk]

So 3600 MJ is a MWh?

[median heath]

Love me some Coke.

Steel

[tropic hawk]

So useful. I typically burn through 5-8 pounds when I use it for my hobby.

[median heath]

Imagine doing Coke Steel in pounds instead of kilos...

(It was between that, or "Pound of Coke Steel vs. a pound of feathers.)

[tropic hawk]

For reference, most blacksmiths use coke instead of coal for heating metal

[median heath]

The ones that aren't using gas forges I'm assuming?

[tropic hawk]

Bite those words

Gas is used for casting.

Or smelting

[median heath]

So the Forged in Fire forges that have 3 gas-hooked flames in them are for casting and not forging?

[tropic hawk]

Gas is for noobs. Coke is fun, because you have to deal with Clinkers!

[topaz hedge]

@subtle grove

[clever bay]

uhmmmm ok I'm blanking on math....

[oblique hollow]

use a calc

[clever bay]

if you need say 28.83 refineries

and you want to power shard all of them...

that means 28.83/2.5

[oblique hollow]

yes

[clever bay]

gets you 11.532

so you need 11 refineries.....but what is the clock speed of the last one?

sorry 12 refineries

11 at 250%

[oblique hollow]

0.532 * 2.5

[clever bay]

GAH thank you

which gets you 1.33 which is 133%

ty ty ty, i forgot algebra for a sec

[oblique hollow]

technically the last one is 133.3333%

[clever bay]

you can put formulas into overclockers can't you?

[oblique hollow]

yes

[clever bay]

so I could just do 05.322.5100

ooooorrrr hold on lol

[oblique hollow]

well thats funny date formatting lol

[clever bay]

0.532 * 2.5 * 100

apparently that's what you get when you remove the space and using asterisks

[oblique hollow]

0.533333333333333*2.5 *100

do 250/1.875

thats much more accurate

[clever bay]

wheres the 1.875 come from?

[oblique hollow]

1/0.53333333333 = 1.875

alternative way:
1/(2.5*0.5333333333)=0.75

so 100/0.75 works too

its a handy trick. reciprocals of decimals usually yield a nicer fraction

[wind spade]

MWh is is 1 MW over one hour so 3600 MJ, yeah

[wind spade]

<@&387163995947270144> (thanks, post was deleted)

[ornate shoal]

i think it's more like 1MWh = 3600 MJ

[oblique hollow]

1 MW = 1 MJ/s
1 MW * 1 h = (1 MJ / s) *3600 s
1 MWh = 3600 MJ

checks out

1 MWh = 1 MJh / s

[wind spade]

uh, I shouldn't do math when I wake up

yeah you're right

[nova steppe]

already got answered (deleted image)

[wind spade]

uh, I just wanted to answer as well, no need to delete

[wind spade]

maybe this would be better tho

[nova steppe]

Yeah I try to go off the more basic looking designs. and make it look more flashy

it works fine just more signals to put down

[vapid gorge]

Might want to get rid of the straight bits between the front and back of stations in case a train decides the shortest path is through a blocked station

[median heath]

His version looks cooler though 😉

[median heath]

Normally I would agree, but apparently the point of the "we made stations +100m longer" is to forgive people who build this way in the pathfinding calculations.

[vapid gorge]

Did they actually add an increased distance value to train stations for this?? XD

[median heath]

They did, but it is what broke things with signals as far as I can tell.
So it isn't fully working properly yet.

I don't think the change was needed at all. But it does enable more designs, so I can say it's a good change in that respect.

[vapid gorge]

wild

I mean I guess it's more designs.

They probably exist but I haven't seen a rail layout where the physically shortest distance to travel was shortest through a station that I liked or thought was useful

[median heath]

The one above basically does that.

[vapid gorge]

I may be biased because the ones I have seen have been actively bad.

Yessss... but it's not a design that requires it to avoid a station that might be shorter if you get my drift?

It would be an absolutely normal 'station by the side' design if it didn't have the middle connecting bits

[median heath]

The main thing I dislike it is enables people who build stations on the main line and bypass around them, instead of leaving the main line clear and stations off to the side.

Other than that it's a fine change.

[vapid gorge]

Enabling people who build like that is in fact an act of immorality.

[median heath]

Agreed <insert Captain Barbosa gif>

[frosty owl]

Note: that's missing the bypass rail

[wind spade]

bypass rail is weird, I'd just put stations off the main rail anyway

[ruby dock]

are there any issues with having a signal at a train junction? Can a train go left if the other path is blocked?

[median heath]

Train will always take the shortest path.
If that path is blocked, it will simply wait for it to be unblocked.

[ruby dock]

No, I mean if a signal is at the junction, will having a train in the next chunk block a train going the other way give it is 1 signal instead of 2 past the junction

[late orchid]

Terrible sketch, but this is how I set up my stations. I Branch them all off the main track entirely.

[median heath]

May I ask why the 3 stations?

[late orchid]

This is a sketch of a computer factory that brings in Caterium, rubber, and plastic.

It’s a Separate station to unload each resource

[median heath]

Are they coming from 3 separate places too.

(Justing thinking 1 longer train could be simpler 🤷‍♂️)

[wind spade]

what's the point of passing track though

[late orchid]

Yeah. Caterium forming from northern forest, oil products from oil islands.

[late orchid]

Player Parking

[wind spade]

ah. Why not a station there?

better to drive automatic trains 🙂

[median heath]

Could probably make that into 1 oil-based train and 1 ct train if you ever redesign in the future 🤷‍♂️
Less trains than are longer = higher throughput potential.

[late orchid]

I have the train drive to one of the stations then pull it off to the side manually. It was useful during construction but probably not needed now.

[late orchid]

Probably. I do find that the stations are a useful place to sort the rubber and plastic though. I’m making 1800 rubber and 1800 plastic right now which is way more than I need. The computer factory makes 45 computer/min and uses 450 plastic and 560 rubber.

[median heath]

45 is a decent start. Also I won't try to sway you on using Crystal Comp, but it is an incredible recipe.

[late orchid]

A big Crystal oscillator factory is next on the list.

Figuring out the balance between how much caterium/ quartz/ oil products hurts my brain

[median heath]

How many you need of final.
What you need it for.

Then look at how many of each part you need to make final.
Everything simplifies if you start at the end and solve backwards.

[vapid gorge]

Do you ever use a production tool? They take some getting used to but can be worth it

[late orchid]

Oh yeah, all the time.

I’m done the space elevator and have a decent nuclear setup, so it’s more a “what is the next project and how do I start” rather than a question of what’s most mathematically optimal

[vapid gorge]

oh right did you mean balance caterium quartz and oil by 'over all the different parts to make' ?

[late orchid]

Yeah, like “is it a better use of my quartz to make X or Y alt given what nodes I have tapped right now.”

[median heath]

There really are only 2 primary things to use Quartz for. Couple of secondaries.

[vapid gorge]

right well if you're interested I created a spread sheet set up by zone with all the resources per minute on it to help locate where to place factories based on recipe. Happy to share if if you think it'd help

[oblique hollow]

if that sheet doesnt include instant scrap why even bother

[median heath]

Oscillators and bumping Aluminium production if applicable 'should' be the bulk of your Quartz usage.

Main secondary use for me is Silicon HSC.

[oblique hollow]

Silicon CB lol

[vapid gorge]

it's resource based, you may apply whatever terrible recipes you wish for it 😛

[median heath]

Ew. Never.

CtCB all day.

[oblique hollow]

oil free CBs are good

[median heath]

Silicon HSC because ADA bless that recipe.

[oblique hollow]

better idea: silica from alumina solution for Silicon CB

[median heath]

Do you seriously use that recipe or are you trolling me?

[vapid gorge]

Yeah Sil CB for me too, was the most convenient option

[oblique hollow]

i used it for a very small speedrun-ish setup

since its fast and dummy easy

[vapid gorge]

and Sil HSC

[late orchid]

Sure, this would be rad!

[oblique hollow]

copper > sheets
quartz > silica

[vapid gorge]

One sec

[oblique hollow]

works well with silicon HSC

[median heath]

CtCB all day every day.

And also because I don't have enough Qtz to run both. So between CB and HSC, I chose HSC.

Plastic isn't exactly limited and I'm positively swimming in extra Caterium.

[oblique hollow]

i swim in silica

i throttled my oil to CB in order to maximize it for funny recipes like steel coated +adhered plate and insulated cable

[median heath]

Adhered and Insulated aren't funny though? They are good.

[oblique hollow]

i know?

[median heath]

Are you using CtComp or Crystal?

[oblique hollow]

neither

well... depends on what save

[median heath]

That's why you have extra Silica.

Mass-producing Crystal Comp is 100% worth imo, but it does chew through Qtz like nothing else.

[oblique hollow]

i did try ct + ct one one save, but that will be one time only

as i didnt like how much oil it chugged

[median heath]

CtCB + CrystalComp = De Wae

[oblique hollow]

eh, ill try base comp

[median heath]

Base Supers for me.

The ultimate in Aluminium-saving solutions.

It's odd... Crystal Comp is the only complex electronic alt I use. Lol.
Base RCU and Base Supers.

If they add a baux node to Spire at some point I will revisit the chain.

[oblique hollow]

cat comp + silicon CB seems like an interesting combo

[median heath]

Time for greeny to make comparison screenshots 😉

[oblique hollow]

bonus of silicon CB: speedy boi

and its reaource usage isnt that terrible either

slightly more oil but way less quartz than Crystal comp

[median heath]

True.
But Crystal Comp is just so good into Base RCU that I won't use anything else.

It does mean I can't use Rigour Motor though 😥
Because that recipe slaps, but you can't do both it and Crystal on the same map with the way I build.

So I use Electric 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

cat comp into base rcu is 1 to 3

exactly

[vapid gorge]

SilCB + Catputer for life!

Dont you dare tell me to not crush 5500 quartz into silica 😛

It'll be a nightmare to build but I'll enjoy the pain

[median heath]

Comps into RCUs are 1:2 in Base.
1 Comp = 2 RCU
Oscillators are also 1:2 into RCUs.
Oscillators are 1:1 into Crystal Comps (3=3)

Meaning setup an Oscillator line. Split it in half. Perfect proportions to make Crystal Comps that also perfectly go into your RCU line.

[median heath]

Take it from Aluminium byproduct 😉

People get hung up on what the recipes ppms are.
Oscillators with Crystal Comp doesn't care. If you want 10 RCUs, make 10 Oscillators and split it to make 5 Comps.
If you want 50, make 50 and 25.
It's such a perfect simplicity that I can't ignore it.

You want extras for storage? Split PCs in half and the second Osc line in half.
Remainder is still perfectly ratiod for RCUs.

[vapid gorge]

Honestly the ppm didn't even come into it. It was managing logistics so I'd have to move as few things as I could. Also I think Sil CB uses a tiny bit less copper

Basically no machine of mine is ever clocked at 100% so eh

[median heath]

You're talking to someone who uses Copper to make Iron at certain outposts. 🙃 So using less Copper isn't really my concern. 😂

[vapid gorge]

Sinful.

[wind spade]

nah, global vs local availability is a thing

[median heath]

Optimization of local resources. 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

That's why I do both 😄

[median heath]

2 of the main Steel substation spots have more Coal than Iron, supplement by using Iron Alloy to maximize production.

[vapid gorge]

Targeted for max copper efficiency.

[median heath]

Copper has never been a limiting factor for me 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

I know. I like pasta though

[median heath]

Baux and Quartz are my top 2.

[vapid gorge]

And the pasta, she be hungry for da Cu!

🤌

[median heath]

Interested to see CtComp with Silicon CB now though, given it uses over 3x the amount of CBs that Crystal does.

[wind spade]

inb4 U6 introduces new nodes which makes all weighted calculations outdated

[vapid gorge]

Look I'm open to looking back and swapping recipes over and over but spent like 2 weeks juggling things to maximise copper savings.

It's possible I'm wrong.

[median heath]

@wind spade if you're inclined:

Resource comparison-
CtComp with Silicon CB vs. Crystal Comp with CtCB

Recycled Rubber/Plastic Loops ofc.
Steamed Sheets.
Fused QW.
Cheap Silica.
Insulated Oscillator.

45/min should be a decent comparison number unless people want to go higher 🤷‍♂️

[native crow]

My main base has 6 iron and one copper and I only use 80% of my copper right now

[vapid gorge]

Feel free to critique if you're curious. https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=dwDzAXOPljXI1BWiqVCl

I will say some that this isn't explicitly my plan because I've broken it down into smaller parts where different or a mix of recipes are used AND some of the recipe choices meant I didn't have to drag a billion things across the map.

It's been a few months but I'm pretty sure Crystal computers weren't an option for a few reasons

[median heath]

I'm on mobile with government internet... screenshots better than making me try to load a website 😭

[vapid gorge]

another time then. It would be incomprehensible as a picture

[median heath]

I would say "Imagine having a main base", but then you'd interpret that as me saying there is only 1 way to play the game 🙃

[vapid gorge]

COME ON.

:gun to head:

[median heath]

😈

[native crow]

I was literally agreeing with you there!

[vapid gorge]

He's a shit stirrer

[median heath]

Copper in my experience only becomes limiting when people automate Project Parts. 🤷‍♂️

[vapid gorge]

Yeah copper is only really an issue if you're making Pasta

[median heath]

Or need a shitton of Stators for some reason..

[vapid gorge]

all iron and coal for those 😛

[native crow]

Is pasta slang for a part? Piping?

Or copy pasta?

[vapid gorge]

Nuclear Pasta item

!wikisearch nuclear pasta

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=nuclear pasta

[vapid gorge]

Sev is right though, unless you want a few of those copper isn't an issue

[median heath]

QW Stator 😉

[vapid gorge]

Worse than mods

[serene burrow]

I think normal circuit board better than silicon for resources

[median heath]

? How so?

Also CtCB > Normal

Electrode 🙃

[vapid gorge]

and suddenly the crowd turned and tore them apart

[serene burrow]

I think crude vs quartz, lemme check

yes, CtCB is best

[vapid gorge]

yeah was about to say, if you wante dto go along THOSE lines you'd want cat boards

Another reason I went Sil over Cat though was limited oil

[serene burrow]

Yes, 45 ct computer from normal cb @ = 0.086 vs 0.088 from silicon, where number is number of raw resource / max extract rate for each added together

[ornate shoal]

i do all caterium, simple logistics

[vapid gorge]

If that gets you the numbers you need yeah it's a solid move

[vapid gorge]

Unless nodes change this is what I'm aiming for

[ornate shoal]

why default supercomputers?

[vapid gorge]

The other 2 recipes used more bauxite and copper I believe

Yeah actually Bauxite was the killer on that one

[median heath]

Ok so I did the maths on what I mentioned earlier:

[vapid gorge]

Was this at me? Cause I heading straight for bed

[ornate shoal]

but isn't this model gonna mine out the map anyway, so why not spend some bauxite?

[vapid gorge]

Needed for Fused Modular Frames

[vapid gorge]

I linked the overall general plan further above if you're curious

The idea was to limit both copper and bauxite to only what they absolutely needed to make most use out of them to specific elevator part pm

But sleep takes me now! Goodbye!

[median heath]

Aluminium saving.

[ornate shoal]

great, i feel like a complete noob now with my 48 pasta plan

tbf i'd need a new cpu to mine out the whole map anyway

[median heath]

Crystal Comp + CtCB vs. CtComp + Silicon CB @ 45/min

Quartz 578.57 vs 297
Oil 165.95 vs 180
Copper 291.42 vs 487.2
Caterium 241.42 vs 210
Limestone 0 vs 494.21

Crystal method costs 281.57 more Qtz and 31.42 more Ct, but saves 14.05 Oil and 195.78 Copper

(Limestone being irrelevant to most people)

[native crow]

That is a big qtz savings

[median heath]

Question being: what else are you using Quartz for?

And for the global people, pretty sure 200 Copper is worth more than 300 Quartz in their "weighted points" sheets 🤷‍♂️

[ornate shoal]

why make batteries with such plan?

[median heath]

Wait what?

How did we get to Battery production lines from Computers?

[ornate shoal]

i'm looking at the whole plan amd it's batteries and casings

[median heath]

What plan?

[native crow]

Cobalt's plan

[ornate shoal]

thr whole plan that he linked

[median heath]

The one I in no way have seen given the constraints I mentioned after he posted 😂

[ornate shoal]

maybe this helps

[median heath]

Yeesh. Imagine automating Project Parts.

[ornate shoal]

why not automate them? it's good points. except magnetic field generators

[median heath]

Because they are finite in need.

And I'm sinking stacks per minute of items that are actually useful, so points isn't an issue.

[ornate shoal]

give example of a part that is infinitely needed

[median heath]

All 33 items on the non-consumable storage list.

Because you use them to build things. And what you're building can change or expand at any time.

Space Elevator gets completed and then is done. You will never need more Project Parts unless they update the game.

[ornate shoal]

of coursr they are never gonna update it

[median heath]

? That isn't known.

[ornate shoal]

but if they do, you are gonna start handcrafting from smart plating?

[median heath]

Not in the way you're thinking.
If they do, I'll do what I do every major update-- Hub0 restart.

[ornate shoal]

why not sink project parts? they give most points

[median heath]

Because points takes care of itself.
Building something that has no practical use is without purpose to me.
And I don't do things without purpose.

[native crow]

Sevrahn is assuming infinite time. I think he plays with one iron vein too and just waits for the ore to smelt and distribute where needed

[median heath]

Again, with incorrect assumptions about me 🙃

Sec, let me pull up how many actual points I am continually generating so we can compare.

[ornate shoal]

it's more efficient to have project parts automated, in case game gets updated, yoy have new tech and tiers unlocked almoat onstantly

you are definetly not making more points than cobalt is planning for

[oblique hollow]

oooor you dont automate them and just start over for fun anyway

[ornate shoal]

imagine not automating product in automation game 🤷‍♂️

[toxic harness]

Can I get the name of the site you used to make this?

[oblique hollow]

Satisfactorytools

[toxic harness]

Ty

[tropic hawk]

u5.satisfactorytools.com

[median heath]

Just non-consumable storage is sinking 23,760,858 points per minute...

Yeah I don't need Project Parts "for the points."

[median heath]

<@&387163995947270144> so this got spammed in every channel...

[native crow]

It wasn't spammed in the meme channel. It is a correct posting there 😊

[median heath]

Fair.

[wind spade]

Not u5.

[tropic hawk]

My bad...

[median heath]

u6

[wind spade]

Np, just wondering where you got that url 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Do you guys have any tips on doing away with waste water that tools generates? In my nuclear setup to recycle the waste it looks like it is putting out 300 extra waste water a minute. It isn't practical to use that for my pure copper ingots all the way across the map. I guess easiest way to dispose of this water could be to loop it back to the reactors?

[median heath]

Recycle it.
Package and Sink it.
Wet Concrete.
Coal Power.

Many options.

[fierce ruin]

Is there a way with valves to ensure that this 300 water got used up before water coming from reactor specific water extractors to make sure it didn't back up and then pause production?

ah, wet concrete is a good idea

[median heath]

VIP junctions

[fierce ruin]

How can I learn more about a VIP junction?

[median heath]

Pins in this channel. Piping manual.

[fierce ruin]

oh great thanks

Getting my nuclear power generation is going to be tough since I wanted to do that before I even hooked up most of my new "large" factory buildings to the grid, but I do have to still make the base materials for the rods

[oblique hollow]

question.... why again do people like coke steel?
.... @median heath

[median heath]

Because it's a perfectly fine recipe?

Why would you dislike it?

[oblique hollow]

no i mean... efficiency wise

[median heath]

Explain the shittiness of it and I will attempt to counterpoint.

[oblique hollow]

solid steel

[median heath]

That's a completely separate, non-oil comparison. 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

exactly

[median heath]

That doesn't make Coke shitty.
It just makes Coke an oil alternate.

[oblique hollow]

i never said it was shitty

[median heath]

You questioned why people like it.

I said it's fine.

You said no.

I asked you to explain how it is not fine.

You said it uses oil.

I'm failing to see your point?

[oblique hollow]

there is none

[median heath]

Why start a conversation with no point?

[oblique hollow]

im simply poking around

[median heath]

It's a perfectly fine recipe.

[oblique hollow]

im doing comparisons again and wanted to see your reaction since i think (?) you use coke steel

[median heath]

I do when it is applicable.
I'm not exclusive with it.

Coke and Solid are the main 2 I use.

[oblique hollow]

also why compacted steel bad again?
just cuz sulfur?

[median heath]

I don't think it is tbh.

People just think it is because Sulfur.

But if you aren't doing a max-Sulfur build, Compacted is great.

Coke vs. Solid is like -40 Coal in trade for +24 Iron and +11 Oil per 60 ingots.

Iron being abundant AF, 40 Coal vs. 11 Oil is pretty even 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

hm...
on that note:

[median heath]

Why is the whole thing green?

[oblique hollow]

because green

i have no way to rate these really

[median heath]

Why color it at all then?

[oblique hollow]

to make em stand out. makes it easier to find em

i hate tables with monochrome colors cuz i get lost in them

the weight bar nicely divides the input side from the math side

[median heath]

No like I get the colors on the top

And I get the 3 bolded color lines

But just the default sheet color being green in every cell... why?

[oblique hollow]

white sucks

green pleasant

[median heath]

Ouch

Lemme just go paint my skin green real fast.. 😭

[oblique hollow]

i hate looking at pure white sheets, its too much of a contrast for me

i could just as well have painted it all slightly yellow or gray or blue

[median heath]

Remind me to never link you any of my sheets 😂

[oblique hollow]

its also a reason why i by default have my monitor color set to a warm tone

so that even if i have pure white, its never really 255³

[wind spade]

blue light filter ftw

[wind spade]

@median heath

[median heath]

So "requested feature" that not necessarily everyone will use?

[wind spade]

it has been actually requested a lot, yeah

but I feel like this way it gives you a lot of freedom in how you use it and doesn't limit people that don't want to use it

[median heath]

Pretty much what I said 🙂

[wind spade]

based on a poll from like a year back, it was third most requested thing

[median heath]

Seems an odd ask given the original build told you total % and figuring out how you wanted to clock to that was A) Super easy and B) allowed all the during-build flexibility to change I mentioned in #satisfactory

🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

not every player is so used to calculating like you are

and actually a thing that's very relevant to some is power usage

which is even harder to calculate than just "how much machines at 250%"

[median heath]

I have a point and laugh emote I am not allowed to use in response to that second line.

Because SevQuote#2: If power is a factor in your decision-making, you're building power wrong.

[wind spade]

I'm not one of them but I don't feel like I should limit my tool's features to just those that are relevant to veteran players 🤷‍♂️

on the contrary - the tool should be most helpful to new players, as with more skill comes less need to use some of the tool's features

[median heath]

I didn't say you should not have added it.

[wind spade]

yeah just saying 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Just wait until they make power linear...

😭

[wind spade]

well... if they keep all the algorithms or at least data points in the data file, and just make the power exponent = 1, the tool should work without too much change (maybe even without any change)

if they remove the exponent completely (which sounds like more work, removing larger parts of calculations), then I'll need to change the tool

[median heath]

Wasn't entirely referencing you having to make changes.

Just... in line with "adding features for casuals"

[wind spade]

yeah not a fan of that change either

[median heath]

If they make it linear I entirely understand why they did.
Just sincerely hope they balance it by removing slugs from doggo loot tables.

[wind spade]

definitely

is there a confirmation about this or is it still just speculation?

[median heath]

Speculation, they have not confirmed.

Highly likely though given Mark's "we may just change it because we can always change it back".

But if the change is about getting more people to interact with the overclock mechanic, and they change it, more people will interact, which means change back is extremely unlikely.

[wind spade]

I think for more interaction it would need a different effect than changing machine speed

[median heath]

?

I think making it linear instantly makes it more appealing to the masses of all play levels without changing anything else.

[wind spade]

interact in a way that wouldn't be "always better"

because linear power means "there's no reason to not to do it"

[random epoch]

What is the best turbofuel recipe?

[wind spade]

define best

[median heath]

Player engagement is binary.
It either happens or it does not.

Determining "better" is a whole other thing.

[random epoch]

most turbofuel/oil node

So I can get the most out of it

[median heath]

Oh I wouldn't say most per oil is getting the most out of it either, but...

Base recipe delivers the most MW per oil.

[random epoch]

currently I got a 20GW fuel plant planned out, but I just found out my friend unlocked turbofuel, but the fuel+compacted coal version

im debating wether I should replan it

[gleaming tendon]

is there a train guide handy? haven't touched them since update 5 and it looks like a lot has changed

[median heath]

Also destroys your sulfur budget, but hey, if your only concern is oil to fuel -- then use base.

[wind spade]

also turbofuel is weird, go nuclear

[median heath]

Signals - check top pin in #old-questions-and-help

[gleaming tendon]

thanks

[random epoch]

ahh okay, thank you @median heath and @wind spade!

[fringe pawn]

That looks really cool!

Wait, does that ping both of you? How does that work?

[wind spade]

you can test it and give feedback if you go to discord and get tester role 😉

no I think it just pinged me

[fringe pawn]

lays trap for Sevrahn anyway

I will limit myself for the time being, I've got a busy couple of weeks. I've been thinking about starting up a fresh world for U6 though, so that might be a good time. I took a nice big break to make the game somewhat fresh again, and I think I'm about at the right point. I'm never going to forget where the uranium nodes are and stuff like that, but otherwise it'll be good to dive back in.

[vapid gorge]

Can't abandon my map. It's too big to fail.

[median heath]

Hub0 resets are fun.

[fringe pawn]

I am going to change the pacing of the game by using Smart or some other mod that allows rectangular foundations and lines of constructors. But otherwise I look forward to experiencing everything from the beginning again.

[vapid gorge]

I don't always reset a Satisfactory map, but when I do, it's to Hub0

[median heath]

MODS 🤢

[fringe pawn]

I won't mind abandoning my current factories because they were built without all the fancy U5 additions, and even without nice design considerations that existed in U4. First time, and all that.

Maybe at some point once I've 'completed' the file I'll find a way to save-edit my points from my previous file into the new one and call it good.

[molten yew]

Boys I need help

How do I setup an overflow system here

I really didn't think ahead

[worthy island]

Looks like you could fit a smart splitter between the lift and containers. Then a lift hanging off the side to take the overflow up/down

[molten yew]

The lift clips into the next belt

Unless there is some finnicky trick I am not aware of

[worthy island]

Ah ok, i think you can make this work

You can force the lifts to take up less space

Hard to explain in words - but assuming you will have a merger at the top of lift, you can build the merger closer to the smart splitter. Then if you build the lift attached to the merger first, you can get a smug fit

[molten yew]

Ohhhhh

Hold on, like I have it here basically?

"Build it into" the lift?

[worthy island]

You can do the same thing with conveyor floor holes - place the holes close to the splitter and build the lift by attaching to the floor hole first. It makes a very snug fit

[worthy island]

That is much tighter than I had in mind but yeh similar idea

[molten yew]

Yeah that's what I have there in the second picture

Floor holes basically right above

I mean this works, but damn does it look ugly

[zinc coyote]

you coulld try making your input lifts stop higher, and have some space above your storage for splitters that push things down

[molten yew]

The thing is, the lifts and the storage inputs are lined up

[worthy island]

Scoot the merger across a few metres

[vapid gorge]

I need some drones flying around

[molten yew]

Which direction?

[worthy island]

Back over the splitter. You might only be able to move it 1m across, by the look of things, but should fit in next to the belt and won't clip into the splitter as much

[molten yew]

Ah, I see

Let me try it out

Alright I think I figured it out, thank you!

[vapid gorge]

Were you the person extolling the virtues of Bolted Iron Plates to me to reduce machinery used @frosty owl ?

[frosty owl]

Could be, yes.
Why?

[vapid gorge]

Someone was showing me a drop of like 500 machines not toooo long ago and I think it was you and bolted plates? Does that sound familiar?

[frosty owl]

Referring to this?

That's 500+ machines saved on constructors alone

The ~400 assemblers saved are just as much welcome imo

[vapid gorge]

Yeah strangely enough I did the swap to my whole plan and it only reduces constructors by about 150. I guess, by hapenstance, I chose a lot of recipes that avoided reinforced plate

[frosty owl]

It's not all that strange. Different production goals and recipe selections yekd much different optimization results

[vapid gorge]

True but this is using a ton of the world resources. Just kinda surprised you could avoid Rplates so much and that I did so by accident XD

[frosty owl]

I think you'd have a clearer idea if you compare the two plans, focusing on breaking down the production chain around the Modular Frame (either in "visualization" or "power")

I don't really know what clearer suggestions to give... I just look at the graph and numbers until things click

[vapid gorge]

Did that. Less than 1GW saving from bolted

and that's how I got the total number of world machines used

oh and 40 less assemblers. But that isn't much

[frosty owl]

If you'd like me to look into why the two plans behave so differently due to the recipe change feel free to share the plan...

[vapid gorge]

Yeah sure one sec

[vapid gorge]

Non bolt https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=37xGf4uQpjoSif2TAfGL

Bolt https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=rko8TdzBEyzcFduBvUNE

[oblique hollow]

I just had a pretty funny idea for the programmable splitter....
im definitely gonna turn this into a QA post, but heres the short cap:

New Settings: "Apply Factory Code to Items" and "Read Factory Code"

Basically Apply code means you set a code number, and all items passing through an output with this setting will receive a type of "Barcode"

"Read Code" makes the programmable splitter only move items to an output if the code matches with what you set

this basicall allows you to do sushi on an even bigger scale, and could also be useful for transport.

example: 2 factories making motors. you can split the motor amount in any way you want and then apply codes to them.

that way you effectively can lock those motors item/min rate

as when you read the code anywhere along the transport, only those specific motors will get shuffled around

[median heath]

Item/min splitter = bad.

[oblique hollow]

you do item/min splitting manually with belts still

the new setting doesnt affect this

it just applies and reads codes

and it definitely is a good trade off vs item/min splitters. you have to manually set it up twice or so, but once you did it, you can sort coded items anywhere you want

[ornate shoal]

could integrate the barcodes with train stations as well, that would allow different approaches to logistics

[oblique hollow]

hmm... could work with truck stations too

[median heath]

Except I'm the only player who even uses trucks...

[oblique hollow]

wouldnt you love being able to barcode and then split barcoded items?

[median heath]

No. I just want smart loading like trains have.

Tell a truck to deal in 1 type of item and I'm happy.

[oblique hollow]

barcode your items in the truck

[median heath]

If I'm allowed to ask for me, it would be that people stop hating trucks without any fucking reason.
But that's too much to ask 3 updates later...

[oblique hollow]

i like trucks myself

and im happy their physics engine gets reworked someday

[ashen mantle]

I would love a form of barcoding and 'tagging' for items

I can imagine the massive logistics hubs that would facilitate

[ornate shoal]

yeah, you could do factories in a completely different way and it would make sense

[ashen mantle]

Another thing I really want is dynamic routing for trains/trucks, so you can set activation triggers to take items from dock A to dock B, or if some other trigger is there it takes items from dock A to dock C

And utilizing barcodes like that for those activation triggers would lead to some insane logistics

But that's a bit complex for vanilla tbh

Probably better suited for a mod

Like, recently I built essentially a container yard that handles mass storage for, well, every item in my world

Every single factory and miner outputs its items to this yard where there's 48 trains shuffling things around, and I've had to use wild arrays of smart splitters hidden under the ground to make things function how I want

Whereas with dynamic routing and tagging I could have it functioning perfectly, just like real life even

[limpid scaffold]

How would barcoding items differ from smart splitters? I mean if you just want to have a certain amount of items being gated there are many ways to go about with some clever beltwork.

[ashen mantle]

So I'm not sure what EyeBon intended, but I look at it like you can set up a log of where an item has gone through

Think of it like a little metadata tag for everything that lets you know it came from Miner A, to refinery D, to constructor B

Or just to append transport logs, ie loaded onto train 7 at station 44, passed through checkpoint BD and BG

Again, too complicated for vanilla, definitely

[boreal shuttle]

smart loading and filtered outputs is literally all i want for trucks

[ashen mantle]

But it might make a cool mod

[boreal shuttle]

give em some love :C

[ashen mantle]

^ Kinda like we have for trains

[median heath]

Yes... don't remind me of the rage.

The one primary thing trucks needed... and they gave it to fucking trains....

[ashen mantle]

I think it should definitely be on trucks, without a doubt

I think it was an oversight, not intentional

[oblique hollow]

you can have items come from anywhere and essentially transport them directly where you want them to go, even if mixed with items of the same type

[median heath]

I actually think it was intentional.
Test it on trains to see the flaws before adding to trucks.

[oblique hollow]

i would probably choose 9 color bar codes

[boreal shuttle]

I think trucks also shouldnt move from the loading station if they're empty still

[ashen mantle]

You can converge lines to massive arterial networks without any issues

[median heath]

Cwatches

[ashen mantle]

That could be it as well. I can't imagine it would be too difficult to implement the code for it, I think the base for truck stations and train stations is mostly the same?

Probably just a lot of Ctrl+C Ctrl+V and change some names

But I don't know how the code works, so that could be wrong

[median heath]

Trains were mostly done so better to test there given they still had pathfinding, station noding, and other updates to still do to trucks.

[ashen mantle]

Really, trucks should just have the functionality of trains, but the rails are paths

[boreal shuttle]

bar codes could be interresting for machines that have fewer inputs than their recipe calls for (if any such thing would ever get added in the future.)

[median heath]

Trains as they are is fine. Just need some minor tweaking to make sure they work as intended. But honestly they are 1.0 ready as far as mechanics and features imo

[boreal shuttle]

imagine the manufacturer had only 2 input slots 🥴

[oblique hollow]

thats called the assembler

[ashen mantle]

Yeah, trains work wonders, the only complaint I have is that their pathfinding could use a little work

Trust me, when you're operating dozens of them on one network, you find every issue there is very fast

[oblique hollow]

afaik gustav is working on trains and trucks still (i THINK at least its gustav)

[median heath]

Pathfinding is fine.

[ornate shoal]

lets say you have a giant factory that just makes iron plates. you can load balance and run those plates through barcoders, then put them all on a train and tell the train to ship the plates to other factories that need them. in each stop the train would only unload specific barcode plates, meaning that you only get what you need in each factory and last stops don't run out.

[median heath]

Buffing trains in any way at this point breaks them.

They need limitations to make trucks/drones competitive.

[ashen mantle]

I mostly just mean the way signals work, especially when you have rails that cross but don't meet, path signals are a bit, uh, funky, and block signals can act up if rails are too close, even though there's no collision

Nothing about features, just some bugs

[oblique hollow]

path signals do have a bug with verticality

[median heath]

See previous on "making things work as intended" and know we are in agreement.

[oblique hollow]

there is no denying that

[ashen mantle]

Very much so, it's hell

[ornate shoal]

i think drones have a very specific niche that will never be contested by trains. trucks can do some unique things too, but they are a lower tier tech. wouldn't mind buffs of course

[ashen mantle]

I've also had issues with a train ending up taking a really long path, that works, but now if you dismantle a track piece that it should be able to route around, it'll still keep going onto it and get stuck

They just pick a fate and never leave it, sometimes ignoring changes from the last time they went through that same path signal

[median heath]

This being said, if they BUFF trains then they become uncontested best method.

Compared to now where it is sort of balanced between the 3.

[ashen mantle]

Yeah, trains shouldn't be buffed, they're fine as is

[boreal shuttle]

also manifolds with no startup lag. Just a row of programmable splitters where you can tell it when to for which barcode off the line!

[median heath]

Dismantling a track piece is supposed to make them repath, so if they don't that's a bug.

[boreal shuttle]

sounds like good qol to me

[earnest glen]

honestly, i like trucks. Trying to use them along the others trasportation methods with success in this run

[median heath]

Using all 3 methods in concert is currently best practice (and imo it should remain that way)

[ashen mantle]

Yeah, I know it is, I've submitted it to the site

[median heath]

Trucks do vertical better than trains though thanks to the magic of jump pads.

[ashen mantle]

You use jump pads for truck routes?

[median heath]

Although idk if the physics update will render jump pads completely obsolete...

[ashen mantle]

I can't believe I've never thought of that

That's beautiful

[earnest glen]

not trying that... yet

[median heath]

Have to do it in a very specific way to make it work, but yes.

[ashen mantle]

I personally use drones and trains, trucks don't serve much use in my factories other than some low throughput transport into areas I don't have the time or care to develop

[ruby dock]

has anyone ever managed to get sulphuric acid getting made from only the water output from nuclear waste processing blenders? (same water output as needed for acid)

[ashen mantle]

Mostly just crystal oscillators being made in the southeast of the map

[earnest glen]

i'm building roads as i did with rails before, trucks for little task are easier to setup imho (in term of space used too)

[median heath]

Anything 1560 or less is technically better to ship by truck (and by that I mean Explorer).
Above 1560 is where trains take over.

[ashen mantle]

If you're asking what I think you're asking, you can't use purely the water from the blenders, I have a valve limiting input from pumps to balance it with the output from blenders

So if the acid production is using 600 m^3 of water, and the blenders are giving 200 m^3 of water as a byproduct, I have a valve limiting the water pumps to adding 400 m^3 of water to the system and loop the rest in

[median heath]

VIP junctions also work wonders.

[vapid gorge]

Are you asking because the waste water is the same pm as needed for the acid to be made?

[ashen mantle]

This too ^

[oblique hollow]

kinda does

[ashen mantle]

They're great for balancing reuse of excess, like with aluminium production

[oblique hollow]

as long as you are far away

[median heath]

We don't know because we haven't seen it yet?

[oblique hollow]

i have

[median heath]

What you have super secret access?????

[oblique hollow]

oh wait

lmao sorry read that wrong

i thought current physics xd

[ashen mantle]

I expect truck physics to get reworked, iirc they're basically way lighter than they should be

Imagine weight changes based on how many items are loaded

[median heath]

Hypertubes initially rendered Pads obsolete until I figured out they work with trucks still.
If truck physics update makes them not work with Pads anymore, then question of why Pads remain in the game arises.

[ashen mantle]

Fun

[median heath]

?

Zero purpose because hypertube better in all respects.

Things without purpose = Delete.

[bronze barn]

Hybertube cannons still means they have some use though, no?

[median heath]

Cannons don't require jump pads...

[bronze barn]

Oh right. Pads I was thinking the landing thingies

[ashen mantle]

Factory carts are the best factory transport, change my mind

[median heath]

Cybertruck.

[ashen mantle]

If your factory isn't powered by thousands of carts roaming, are you even a satisfactory player?

They don't even use fuel, it's perfect

I want to build a factory with completely modular processing, hundreds of truck stations, and a shit ton of factory carts, just to prove I can

I want to see a superhighway 8 lanes wide packed with a river of factory carts

[earnest glen]

I think a saw a video once about carts as logistics 🤔

[ashen mantle]

There's probably multiple, after all, they are the superior form of item transport

[glad vigil]

They do, but it’s not necessary

That makes these even better

Basically a sink for petrol coke

[ashen mantle]

Coke goes to steel production in my factory

And aluminum production for that matter

[glad vigil]

Hold up

[ashen mantle]

I use a lot of coke

[glad vigil]

Are these alt recipes?

[ashen mantle]

Iron ore + petroleum coke = steel ingot

Foundry alt

[glad vigil]

I use solid steel ingots

[ashen mantle]

Also works for circuit board production, rubber and coke rolls together

That's how I have circuit boards coming out of a petrol refinery loop

[glad vigil]

Electrode circuit board seems meh

[ashen mantle]

I just like it for convenience of resources

I have so many petrol products it's unreal

[glad vigil]

The only real advantage of it is that you don’t have to move resources around

[ashen mantle]

I've utilized every single node on the left side of the map and the spire coast, it's not a big deal for me to go and use some of that for easy circuit boards

Which alt do you use?

[glad vigil]

I am currently looking for heavy oil residue recipe

[ashen mantle]

No, like, for circuit boards

[glad vigil]

Caterium ones

[ashen mantle]

Ew

I mean, I see the appeal

Most of my quickwire goes to computers, fuel cells, high speed connectors, stators, etc etc.

[glad vigil]

I also have default recipe somewhere in my spaghetti that I’m afraid to touch

[ashen mantle]

I've pretty much got all of my caterium allocated

Which is, terrifying

[oblique hollow]

you mean like trains?

[ashen mantle]

Pure caterium ingots & Fused quickwire recipes, still have very little excess all things considered

[ashen mantle]

Remind me later today when I'm not in class to show you my trainyard hub

This is just the export loading onto the 12 car trains

There's another one for the 4 car trains

This isn't even the actual functional part like the warehouse or 'port'

[median heath]

Imagine weight based on type of item 😉

[ashen mantle]

Now imagine it impacts train acceleration

[oblique hollow]

kinda is already. stack size

[median heath]

1 Nuclear Pasta needs 5 locos to move.

[oblique hollow]

it does already

[ashen mantle]

It what

[median heath]

Eh. You know what I mean.

[ashen mantle]

Please don't tell me it does

[median heath]

Welcome to U5

[oblique hollow]

Items have weights and they impact train acceleration

[median heath]

Dynamic train weight.

[ashen mantle]

That would actually be fun, like, having to make a powerhouse of a train just to move certain super late game items

[ashen mantle]

That's great but terrible, how have I never noticed that

That explains so much though

[oblique hollow]

if you have too many items, you cant move a train that was previously able to move up a ramp, up that ramp anymore

!wikisearch freight car

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=freight car

[ashen mantle]

Can't say I've ever actually read the wiki pages for it

[oblique hollow]

do it

[ashen mantle]

Does that apply to liquids as well

[oblique hollow]

yes

[ashen mantle]

OH MY GOD IT DOES

I HATE THIS GAME

[oblique hollow]

the table below shows how long your train can be to still move up a ramp

based on weight

[ashen mantle]

At least it doesn't impact my container yard but damn that fucks up my plans for something else I wanted to do

[oblique hollow]

another factor that balances trains vs trucks

[noble agate]

It’s great to know that flower petal weighs as much as concrete 🙂 As both stack at 500 and one stack weighs 1.75t

[oblique hollow]

a coffee cup weighs 1.75 t

[ashen mantle]

Trains really do have all the features trucks need

[noble agate]

Lol, why didn’t I think of that 😛

[earnest glen]

for aesthetics reasons I stick with 4 wagons per train, so they don't have much problem even climbing spirals

[oblique hollow]

spirals depend on pitch too

if your spiral is too steep, its actually worse than the 2 m ramp

and approaches the mythical 4 m ramp

[median heath]

Yes but... imagine Wire weighs 1.2t, Iron Ingots weigh 1.8t, etc.

The chaos 😈

[earnest glen]

I always stick to 2m ramps for train

[oblique hollow]

they should make weight more visible

i wanna see giant scale displays on freight platforms

[median heath]

If I need something up an extremely high incline I don't even use a ramp.
I just have an upper train and a lower train with conveyor lifts doing all the work.

[ornate shoal]

why not build a spiral?

[median heath]

Throughput value at the end is the same.
And simplicity.
And looks cool.

[ornate shoal]

fine, your 1st and 3rd arguments are good

i personally think spirals look cool too

[glad vigil]

Spiral looks glorious though

[wind spade]

because less throughput

[noble agate]

My nuclear plant train is 23 cars long (+ locomotives). Don’t think I’d like to build any more train stations than is necessary as they become pretty long 😄

[wind spade]

and I'd rather realistic things than train spirals

[ornate shoal]

i think climbing a spiral takes less time than loading and unloading a freight platform

[median heath]

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.

[wind spade]

throughput != time to travel

[ornate shoal]

omg, spirals are real too if you build some supports for them

[median heath]

Depends on height of spiral 🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

spirals make trains slow down so you need more trains to transport same amount of resources

[wind spade]

train spirals? that go more than 720 degrees? not really

[median heath]

Eh....longer route times actually lead to higher potential throughput.

[molten yew]

How does the efficiency meter work in Satisfactory? Like right now I am overfeeding my copper production (Producing 180/min - Smelting 180/min - Constructors add up to 130/min, but all of my machines are showing at 100% efficiency?

Like is it only the fact that they are working without breaks?

[median heath]

Less trains with more cars and longer routes times = Max Potential Throughput

-Train +Car +Time = Max
If you change any of the + or - you have less potential.

[noble agate]

Your miner is not working at 100%

[median heath]

Yes.

[noble agate]

But all machines are, as they are constantly working

[median heath]

Your miner won't be 100% because it is taking breaks.

[molten yew]

Ah, I see

[median heath]

Eff = Continual Runtime

[molten yew]

For some strange reason one out of the 6 smelters is at a 100%, the rest are around 30%

[ornate shoal]

they are literally connected. of course if you are lifting product from one station to other then we are now talking about 1 vs 2 trains to do the same work, so that comparison is not fair

[molten yew]

So if I match my miner with my constructor usage, and underclock my smelters it would be more optimal, right?

[median heath]

This is why I said it depends on the height of the spiral.

[wind spade]

throughput is reduced when you introduce longer path for a train 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

If it takes you only 10s to climb it = spiral beats lifts.
If it takes you more than 27s to climb it = lifts beat spiral.

[ornate shoal]

and transfer stations make the path longer as well

[median heath]

This is somewhat incorrect.

[wind spade]

transfer stations increase throughput because you naturally need two trains instead of one 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Now I'm confused as to what he even means..

[ornate shoal]

that's what i'm saying. you compare 2 train setuo with 1 train setup

[median heath]

Spirals are fine. I just like transfer stations on extreme height differences 🤷‍♂️

Like anything going from the Oil Islands up to Red Jungle is going to be transferred because that's straight up a cliff face.

And building a conveyor lift elevator up the side of that cliff looks better to me than a 50-loop spiral 🤷‍♂️

[ornate shoal]

i'm actually expanding that way right now and 100% gonna build a spiral there 😋

[median heath]

You do you.

[ornate shoal]

i found a way of building really smooth spirals that don't make the train wobble so just can't wait to tryy out new technique

[median heath]

🤷‍♂️

I have very little that even needs to be trained.

[molten yew]

Am I missing something here?

Need a sanity check please

[median heath]

Can double check it easily using Tools.

[molten yew]

Fair

[frosty owl]

YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

The only point you raised I wouldn't completely agree with is limiting the codes to 9 colours or somethig, if possible I think endless would be ideal
I'm not gonna bore you with how convenient I would find such a feature, but I think it's really a great thought that could possibly fill nicely the current lack of feature that programmable splitters have

[oblique hollow]

9 is an interesting limit as you now have to be careful from where you mix and match what

if you have a small network somewhere and another somewhere else, 1 red code will suffice for both

[frosty owl]

That's way too little. 2/3 per item type would be more reasonable Imo

[oblique hollow]

i think though that like.... 255 codes should be enough. at best

[median heath]

Because you like it so much, in going to say it has to be a mod.

[oblique hollow]

watch out before i suggest it to the modding cord

[frosty owl]

I think it would fit in vanilla nicely. Poggers need a buff

[inner reef]

most efficient factory
miner mk1 on normal iron node, goes to 1 smelter(if its 30 then 2)
boom, storage

[median heath]

Miner connected to Sink.
Job done.

[frosty owl]

To give an example of how I could already simplify beltwork with it @oblique hollow

In my nuclear factory I have a "refining hall" connected to 2 different 'assembly areas". There are multiple recipes involved, but I'd like to focus on the Pure Copper and Caterium refineries and the Quickwire assblers fed by those refineries. 2 Quickwire setups are in one assembly area, one is in the other, but since each setup has different clocks and is fed single-input style I had to connect the refineries to the QW through 3 belts rather than 1.
Having codes would allow me to code the ingots for each of the QW setups before conveniently merging them all together

[oblique hollow]

and then sorting the code items to each machine that needs it :)

effectively a long distance throughput or item managing system

[median heath]

"We've done away with beacons"....

Interested to see how that affects recipes.

[frosty owl]

Not really much of a distance for me, but the inplications on long-range transport are interesing too

[oblique hollow]

no more uranium fuel unit

the marker limit thing reminds me of BOTW

[median heath]

Stamping system is dope.

[oblique hollow]

ok stamp placing is literally botw markers, love it

OH HE MENTIONED IT

"...if you played BOTW or Elden Ring..."

[median heath]

Resource reveal is nice.
Being able to have it ping specifically for the slugs/drives/berries would be nice but I can understand them wanting people to still use the object scanner.

Object scanner won't reach full potential until we can remove drop pods though so you don't re-find them.

[cinder silo]

If the beacons are done away with, does that mean they will rename them as part of the rifle ammo pack recipe or get shot of them there to?

[median heath]

From what he said they haven't removed them from the game.

They just aren't needed because you can pin the map.
So they are still used in production unless they decide to remove them entirely.

At which point they will have to redo the affected recipes.

[cinder silo]

I'll hold off on rebuilding my ammunition factory for the time being, I have a few industrial cans full of bullets so I can afford to wait 🙂

Ammunition & spaghetti factory that is because it was a disorganised mess 🤣

[median heath]

Going to fuck a lot of nuclear lines when/if they remove them entirely.

[cinder silo]

Ahh yeah the classic fuel cells. if nothing else was added it wouldn't be a massive issue, I see your point though.

I didn't think of that personally because my setup uses the blender method.

[median heath]

Fuel Unit is the alt?

[cinder silo]

Whoops, I'm conflating other recipes, sorry, yes the fuel unit.

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Uranium_Fuel_Rod

[ornate shoal]

people are gonna highlight markers as factory decoration

[empty glade]

Sounds like they should change the classic recipe to an alt, and make a new classic recipe, until they remove the recipe.

[median heath]

If classic = base, there is nothing wrong with it.
The alt recipe is the one that will change with beacon remove.

[cinder silo]

The formerly classic recipe is now the alt when nuclear got messed with, the blender version is the default.

[median heath]

Unit.

Has less letters than classic so why type more when you don't have to 😭😭😭

[ornate shoal]

radar tower changes seem really nice

makes me feel less bad about using satisfactory calculator

[median heath]

My goal and hope for 1.0 is they have the map in a state I never have to open that website again.

[empty glade]

Especially when devs have fat fingers 😆

[wind spade]

Yeah we all know how you don't like external tools xD

[median heath]

Tools are fine.

Calculators and Interactive Maps though....

[solid crystal]

as someone who has only been playing about a month, doesn't have the entire map memorized, the calculators are awesome for figuring out what can be done with the resources around me. I still need to figure out all the logistics of getting it working properly, but the calculator is a wonderful tool for people that aren't experts in the game.

[median heath]

Check the vid on radio tower updates and understand why I'm hoping to never use that site again.

Also understand it's half a meme. People can do what they want to.
And partially has to do with save editing, which is almost on the level of modding 🤢

[solid crystal]

Oh, I fully understand your point as it regards the video. It seems they are making great strides with the in-game map so that you would never have to touch the interactive maps again.

[fierce ruin]

Caterium wire, thoughts? I am really thinking about Using it to cut down on copper use. My 10/10/10/10 phase 4 build only uses 2800 caterium a minute right now

[fringe pawn]

I like caterium wire. It takes more smelters or refineries to process caterium ingots, somewhat offsetting the super low building count of the wire constructors.

[median heath]

It's the Steel Screw of Wire recipes.

[frosty owl]

Eh, arguable. It's not as speed-efficient: as Red Maw mentioned one ends up requiring more total machines than with fused quickwire

[tropic hawk]

Look on the thread of this channel for wires

#971802102387073064

[wind spade]

specifically to the document which compares all the variants https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14pQwDTsijRlK9W3grgUrAbpiASJxQDBalTuICEZol_E/edit#gid=0

(in second sheet there's table you can sort as you want)

[median heath]

Document is about Cable, so is the thread.

Initial query was specific to Wire, no?

[oblique hollow]

yea but this one became wire + cable

in essence, if you want least machines, use fused wire + coated cable

[median heath]

But that's to reach a certain amount of CABLE.

Reaching just a certain amount of WIRE would be different.

[fringe pawn]

I believe cable would only be relevant for automated wiring? Potentially a fairly significant use case, even if it's the only one.

[wind spade]

depends on recipes you use 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

That was the basis of why the sheet was made.

[fierce ruin]

I got quickwire cable unlocked in that same group of hard drives as well

It is making me second guess the use of any of them or not. I wasn’t originally planning it but wondering if I should use them to better utilize the caterium some. I am not doing a max resources build but I am using 30% ish of most

Caterium wire would get it a little more in line of percentage used with the copper and iron if I wanted to double up the size of my build later

I know I ask dumb questions in the week I have been here. I appreciate the help though

[oblique hollow]

quickwire cable is technically quite good too

if iron wire isnt your thing, fused wire and quickwire cable is 3rd most efficient, according to the table above

[fierce ruin]

What are the differences between the top half and bottom half of the table? All headings seem to be the same

[wind spade]

water?

[fierce ruin]

Ah, would those be using like pure ingot recipes in the background I assume?

[wind spade]

yeah all other recipes are enabled and the tool picked the most efficient ones

one half of the table had water disabled just to see how that changes things

[fierce ruin]

So this is showing that including water (I was already planning on doing all pure recipes anyways), that the fused quickwire is the most efficient from a materials standpoint? The table is really for making cable but assume you could also infer it should show efficiency for making the wire as well

[wind spade]

the table is mostly for cable, yeah. If you're looking just for wire, it's probably better to analyse it yourself from scratch 🤷‍♂️

(or just chuck it into a tool and see what it outputs)

[fierce ruin]

I have to make 3500 cable/m so it’s definitely something to look into. It’s 65% of my wire usage

[glad vigil]

Does Turbo Blend fuel recipe convert heavy oil residue into turbofuel with 1:1 ratio if the diluted fuel is used to make normal fuel for it? Am I doing math (or meth) right?

[frank mesa]

600 oil makes 800 Turboblend

Using the diluted fuel recipe to make the required fuel

[versed violet]

Is this a good channel to ask If I'm building too much pillars and walkways/laugh at my power grid makeup/transport logistics count?

I'm weirded out that my power cabling length is equal to my total belts length within 1% accuracy. And has been for quite a while.
(the 5k unknown buildings are probably Structural Solutions concrete blocks - count them as foundations)

[hazy saffron]

It makes sense, just as every building needs a power connection they need at least one conveyor connection (with some exceptions)

[versed violet]

I'm wondering if this is a global rule, or just specifics of my building 'style'. Anyone can drop their summary for comparison?

[burnt wraith]

How do you get it?

[vapid gorge]

if you load your map into SCIM it shows you

[burnt wraith]

Aha thanks

[ornate shoal]

mine looks like that

[burnt wraith]

(these are the saves that have sent package 4)

[river pagoda]

Dang I’m really lacking

[glacial hazel]

Perhaps I'm not connecting the dots.. but how am I doing this?

[stark bronze]

something to do with underclocking something before connecting it

it got introduced with lower than normal consumption and it can't update when you overclock it

[sullen mulch]

I am beginning to regret making a pure iron factory taking everything the rocky desert has especially considering this is only half the refineries I need.

[vapid gorge]

Look, there is SO much iron in that desert, You can make 300 heavy modular frames per minute comfortably there with the smelter ingot recipe

This will be more iron than you will likely ever have a use for

But it will look cool at least

[sullen mulch]

hahaha yeah I did not think this through but thanks, hopefully it will look cool

especially since I am now 50% comitted to load balancing everything

[vapid gorge]

It's basically the only way you can assert your dominance over a landscape

[sullen mulch]

hahaha

[vapid gorge]

Why didn't you just say you hated yourself

[sullen mulch]

you see I could say that but why say it when I can show it in a few years time

[vapid gorge]

Just an image of you dehydrated and entirely wrinkles and dark eyes, pointing to your 40,000 iron ingots a minute

[sullen mulch]

you know what's really sad is my calculation onyl put me at 5000 p/m

[vapid gorge]

Wrist and fingers arthritically forming a claw you can't unbend

[sullen mulch]

well they already do that because of my graphic design

[vapid gorge]

oooohhh the rocky desert. I'm sorry, misread and thought dune. That's not as bad

Youll be fine

[sullen mulch]

this image begs to differ

[vapid gorge]

you don't have to have them all in one line you know 😛

[sullen mulch]

yep but I think there was an image in my head and I'm committed now haha

[vapid gorge]

Thoughts and Prayers

[sullen mulch]

I told myself this would be more fun than automating super computers

i might have been wrong

[vapid gorge]

I will for once do the smart thing and not comment.

[sullen mulch]

hahaha

I just finished the last piece of coursework for uni yesterday and now I am starting a project that will be just as tedious as uni work

[vapid gorge]

Just finished an aweful 2200 word case study. Looking forward to two days of work and then having to look at the next assignment >.>

I haven't been able to meaningfully do anything in game in weeks

[sullen mulch]

yep I know that feeling. Although you would think having all the time in the world is good until you have it and don't know what to do with it

[vapid gorge]

I have zero issues with this. When this semester is done I'm going to relax for at least 2 weeks and build a large portion of my uranium factory that's been languishing

[sullen mulch]

hahaha, good luck with the uranium, fingers crossed the 2 weeks are enough for you to make some good progress with that

[vapid gorge]

I should be able to get the guts of it running, just not any of the aesthetics. But give it time 🙂

[sullen mulch]

The guts are what count. Only reason I keep loosing interest in projects is i keep trying to beautify them while placing down machines

[vapid gorge]

Yeah that'll probably cause more problems that way. Do a layout with foundations and the machines/logistics with a basic shape you want to design it with with some room for detail and depth of walls then do all the guts. I find that way simpler for me

[sullen mulch]

fingers crossed I keep to doing the machines and logistics with this build first

and just looking at that makes me realise how much I have overcomplicated this

[cinder silo]

The screenshot looks cool though 🙂