math-and-meta

[wind spade]

it's that simple, you don't need to measure anything. Least objects built = smallest save

[versed violet]

don't touch foliage at all. or pick up items.

[gloomy palm]

That's why i was thinking whether multiple grids or one big grid would be better for save file size/loading/saving time

[wind spade]

no change, both have same amount of objects

[gloomy palm]

ah hm

[river night]

save file size seems like an absurd efficiency goal, but 🤷

[versed violet]

most likely doesn't matter

[wind spade]

also what chart you're making?

[gloomy palm]

@wind spade the different possible efficiency goals a player could choose to build a factory biased towards

[wind spade]

that seems just like a list, not a chart 🤔

[gloomy palm]

it will be a venn diagram later

Once the categories are worked out

[wind spade]

what would be the point of said venn diagram tho?

[versed violet]

it may also become a vain diagram if people won't care

[gloomy palm]

to visualize the different play styles and see what the middle ground is

[gloomy palm]

That's entirely different story ,😅😅

For now its just a personal project

[wind spade]

uhhh, tbh I'm not sure what you're trying to do but I doubt you can get any relevant info out of this

[gloomy palm]

Hmm essentially it could potentially help someone to decide which path they'd like to follow and stick to it as a motife in planning a large factory so as to keep a main aim in mind

[wind spade]

or you can as well let people play in their own playstyle

[gloomy palm]

which of the paths do they find most important to them

[wind spade]

not to mention that playstyles can't really be generalised like that

[gloomy palm]

Well that's what I was trying to figure out, whether quantifying them is possible

I'm undecided and need help

[wind spade]

it's not

you can't quantify something that has virtually limitless possibilities

[versed violet]

It can be summed up in couple lines of common knowledge:
resource efficiency <> power efficiency <> building count.
big factory vs separate factories

[gloomy palm]

Ohh i like that

[wind spade]

isn't power efficiency and building count pretty much the same though?

[versed violet]

Nope

assembler or particle accelerator?

[wind spade]

I can't see why would someone assume they have the same value tho

[gloomy palm]

I suppose the issue is not building count if you compare those two buildings, since you can't replace the job of a particle accelerator with any amount of other buildings

but for some recipes you could potentially use different buildings to achieve the same goal

[versed violet]

example: constructors vs refinery for concrete. Diff power use, diff building count.

[gloomy palm]

exactly, and those two possibilities are gonna be biased towards different aspects of efficiency

[versed violet]

diff physical footprint and beltwork

[wind spade]

then I'd rather use "space optimisation" rather than "building count"

[versed violet]

for raw resources and amount of work done by player, reinery wins. On power side, I think constructors win.

[gloomy palm]

I think a radar chart would work for this

so like, any given setup would be more biased to one of the efficiency categories outlined in the list

[wind spade]

the thing is you can't quantify how much a certain playstyle affects certain parameter because every player plays differently

[versed violet]

location location location.
With concrete (sic!) example, empty desert favors constructors while limestone next to lake favors refineries.

[gloomy palm]

so even the efficiency for a given setup changes based on where you are on the map

that makes all of the efficiencies not quantitative then

except maybe power and timing which are machinery configuration based irrespective of location

[versed violet]

rules of thumb are good.
if you want absolute max output from given resource nodes, go to greeny calc.
If you want the best output/MW, I have excel for that.
Least buldings - try picking recipes with highest count.

[gloomy palm]

what bias does SCIM produce in the planner?

[versed violet]

Same with large base vs many bases. Large base = more lag

[versed violet]

Most likely highest output

[gloomy palm]

ahh

[versed violet]

There is no calculator for parts/MW (yet), but there is analysis section growing on wiki that tackles that can of worms.

[wind spade]

I'm hoping to replace all options with "use my tools" in the future 😛

[gloomy palm]

right, I noticed the wiki uses a lot of greeny calc

[wind spade]

none, it uses exactly the recipes you pick for it

[versed violet]

Waiting for the power optimization calc. Tired of unchecking the reciupes 😉

[gloomy palm]

what if I pick all the recipes

[wind spade]

then it uses all the alt recipes you picked

[gloomy palm]

that wouldn't necessarily be better tho

[wind spade]

if there's multiple recipes for a single item, it just uses whichever is defined first/last in it's own code iirc

[gloomy palm]

there's no recipe comparison done by the calc?

[versed violet]

You can use the greeny calc and select only 'best power usage' recipes for each item, to get power optimized results. I think it saves the selection for you too.

[gloomy palm]

yeahhh

[wind spade]

don't think there is

[versed violet]

If you mean comparison for best parts/MW, that has too many variables for now.

[wind spade]

there will be power optimisation and if I'll manage to make the building size exporting script, I'll put space usage in as well

technically I can also do "least buildings"

[gloomy palm]

yeahhh

\o/ would be cool

[wind spade]

but I don't really think it's a valid optimisation target over space/power

[gloomy palm]

oh space

[versed violet]

space will mostly follow power, the basic buildings increase in power proprtionally to size

[oblique hollow]

or at least sort-of-proportional

[wind spade]

well I can do 2D space and 3D space

[oblique hollow]

square-cube law says hi xd

[versed violet]

iclude beltwork needed.

[gloomy palm]

Ohai mcgalleon

[versed violet]

if you include time needed to build n belts, you can do 4D space

[gloomy palm]

?_?

[wind spade]

can't include that

there's no way to quantify "time to build extra infrastructure"

[oblique hollow]

who the hell would analyze 4D space statistics

[gloomy palm]

o/

[oblique hollow]

no, bad, this is not special relativity. or relativity at all

[gloomy palm]

aww

[oblique hollow]

no 4D stuff

[gloomy palm]

😦 hello sadness my old friend

[versed violet]

Don't measure time then, measure proportions. Constructor needs 1 unit of build time, assembler two, manufacturer four and so on. Assume building machine also takes 1 unit of time. Observe if results make sense.

[gloomy palm]

it would be linear to the amount of buildings

[wind spade]

every player places belts differently 🤷‍♂️

also clocking buildings, etc.

[versed violet]

This is estimation, not benchmark 😉

[oblique hollow]

manifold follows linear rules, balancer folows, like.... binary exponentiation

[wind spade]

can't use estimation for optimisation target 🤷‍♂️

[gloomy palm]

trinary if you use three outputs

[versed violet]

You can, if its a static multiplier.

[wind spade]

it's a static multiplier based on estimation 🤷‍♂️

my point is not that I can't use it because of technical limitations, but I can't use it because I want to keep the tool 100% objective

[versed violet]

Add it as an 'extra' option

[gloomy palm]

guys this is what I was talking about before about my chart listing the different ways someone could choose to bias their optimisations for, there's gonna be different avenues and as mentioned before, some avenues are quantitative and others not

[wind spade]

do I seem like I have that much free time to add extra options to my tool? 😄

[versed violet]

The quantitive avenues have dozen of parameters that need to be configured first

[gloomy palm]

But none of which can tell how long it takes to set up a factory plan

[wind spade]

because that's something you can't quantify

[gloomy palm]

ya

[versed violet]

Take your best guess, multiply by three. This will be the low end of final bracket

[gloomy palm]

ehheh

[versed violet]

If work includes frontend, multiply by five. Works in software development 🤣

[wind spade]

I think you're trying to do something that makes no sense to do because it'll either only have some parameters or be unusable due to hundreds of parameters needing to be defined first by the given player

[gloomy palm]

there's some satisfactory speed runs that are 2-3 hours long to get to first or second space elevator stage

so that would include the time waiting for parts to be made

[versed violet]

said players most likely do not care about factory aesthetics or recipe power optimization. also no alts.

[gloomy palm]

well if they are vanilla they'd not have time to find the alts

[bleak coral]

they also hand make a lot of stuff instead of automating it, and also buy a lot from the awesome shop

[gloomy palm]

ahhh

[bleak coral]

the whole speedrun route has a single optimization in mind: time

[versed violet]

speedruns are not a valid measurement for games. There was one, outer worlds I think, which folks managed to beat in 12 mintes

[bleak coral]

everything else is sacrificed for it

[gloomy palm]

s a c r i f i c e

[bleak coral]

the backbone of speedruns for this game are basically finding the optimal route to the most points-rich crash sites, and buying as much of the most complicated parts as you can

[gloomy palm]

well I was hoping someone would've tried speed running by building the factory necessary to get to the end result but if they are using the awesome shop then that wouldn't help figure out how long it takes to build a factory

[gloomy palm]

ah I see, the crash sites are always the same loot

[bleak coral]

yup

[gloomy palm]

if the crash site loot was randomised, that would alleviate this possibility

I wonder why not more of the map is procedural, crash site locations, mobs, trees

[versed violet]

Fair Chances Program ™️

[gloomy palm]

ah lmao

[bleak coral]

I'm a member of the no-randomization brigade

[gloomy palm]

you'd not like Minecraft very much

[quaint rampart]

Proc gen for a 3D environment is still a developing technology too

[bleak coral]

get rid of deposit and hard drive randomization too, game is mostly deterministic anyway and it's nice that way

[gloomy palm]

hmm

[bleak coral]

just for this game, randomization is a lovely tool to use, but I don't think it fits this specific game

[river night]

deposit randomization?

[versed violet]

Minecraft (or the other factory game) do not happen on limited space.

[gloomy palm]

I think it's actually more fair that the game is not deterministic in progression because then it doesn't give experienced players a natural advantage over new players, everyone has to deal with problems with the same amount of disorientation ^-^

[quaint rampart]

Dyson Sphere Program is technically limited but the map is huge

[bleak coral]

yeah deposit types are randomized, locations aren't though

to be clear deposit = rock that goes away after hand-mining, not nodes you place miners on

[river night]

oh the outcrops

[gloomy palm]

ah those

[river night]

noone cares about those 😄

[gloomy palm]

I hate those

[quaint rampart]

Finite supply might as well be zero supply

[gloomy palm]

any thoughts on this

[bleak coral]

it's important for quartz & caterium MAM research, finding one early or not at all can have a big impact on when you start those researches because otherwise you can't ping for them

[river night]

randomization doesnt necessarily add difficulty, just tedium. You can get a bad seed and have bad placement of stuff, doesn't make it harder for an experienced player, just more annoying

while a new player with a bad seed might get frustrated faster

[bleak coral]

1. it's single player game who cares, it's not a competition
2. experience should mean something
3. as demonstrated above randomization can hurt new players too, it's neutral more than anything
4. experienced players will always do better than new ones, cause experience means something

[versed violet]

Imagine spawning in area surronded by uranium deposits

[gloomy palm]

ded

[versed violet]

what would experienced player do?

[gloomy palm]

randomisation doesn't have to mean chaos xD

correct distribution is still possible

[river night]

i imagine there would still be biome limitations so you dont get uranium in your spawn area, but in any case knowing where things are on the map is such a small part that it really doesnt matter

knowing what and how to build is much more important then finding the deposit you need

[gloomy palm]

there's multiplayer too tho

experience means you know what to do, just not where to do it

[river night]

its cooperative multiplayer, so basically singleplayer with friends

[gloomy palm]

[fierce ruin]

I thought by math they meant people talking about algebra... or somethin

[muted crypt]

usually it's just ratios

[river night]

maybe some day in the future they'll have a game mode where you can actually compete or something, but right now we don't

[gloomy palm]

notice "and meta"

[muted crypt]

but at least these ratios mean something, unlike what you might see on twitter

[fierce ruin]

Yea I saw that lol

Thought that was some math wizkid word

[bleak coral]

Oh is satisfactory Twitter just riddled with misinformation?

[versed violet]

Modz! there was one for red vs blue

[gloomy palm]

the proportion of meta in this group is close to between 50 and 81% but I'm no math expert

[muted crypt]

no it's just that the latest craze is trying to "ratio" someone by getting more likes on a reply than the initial tweet

it's pathetic lol

[muted crypt]

you can also just... host... something

[bleak coral]

Oh that's what that means, never understood wtf they were talking about whem they said "ratioed"

[muted crypt]

tweet: "statement lul" [3 likes]
reply: "ratio" [37 likes]

shit like that lol

[bleak coral]

It's like "first", but somehow worse

[gloomy palm]

everything in 2021 is somehow worse

except satisfactory! that only gets better 😅 ehheh 👀

*dies inside*

[muted crypt]

exactly

[median thunder]

factorio is randomized, but in factorio it's 2d and generating giant amounts of high quality terrain is doable

[wind spade]

also factorio doesn't have exploration and POIs like SF does

[muted crypt]

yeah, factorio's map is relatively empty... this game has significantly more emphasis on exploration than factorio has

factorio is purely factory construction and tower defense mechanics

[wintry fern]

Am I going crazy or is startup speed the only reason to optimize belt throughput on a manifold

Not including the belts that input to machines themselves, just the belts connecting the splitters

[wind spade]

belt throughput won't help you much with startup speed

[wintry fern]

Oh yep you're right actually

[wind spade]

the gain is very minimal and is countered by the fact that you produce less items in meantime, so in the end it both evens out

[wintry fern]

I'm sick and maths has become very hard

[lone jay]

Please dont laugh. But this is my fuel diagram setup. Made in Windows Paint. I was short 3,500 MW per 30 generator stack. It should be noted that I have overcloscked each Blender to 105 fuel per minute compared to 100 fuel per minute. And as such I've added an addition 5 generators to this side for a total of 105 generators in total and 35 for the other side. for a maximum power output of 21,500 ish MW.

[neat crest]

Do y'all tend to buy a lot of computers from the AWESOME shop to complete milestones and MAM research or am I just being a bitch about automating them

[wind spade]

definitely automate them, there's no point in buying them, since cost of tickets increase a lot

[hollow hornet]

Nice. I have done 15 refineries -> 12 blenders -> 100 fuel gen. (5 floors of gens, 20 gen/floor). If all the liquid moves perfectly I can run everything at 100%. I am thinking about keeping 5 generators (one per floor) at 75% just to help prevent drainage. Should I up that a bit?

[neat crest]

I am working on that it's just all the other stuff in the meantime

[hollow hornet]

Automate ALL THE THINGS! (really, do it) You will need quite a few computers going forward.

[oblique hollow]

i shoved the stuff into some containers and fed those to a manufacturer so it at least made some computers for the time being

buying items from the shop is a terrible waste

[hollow hornet]

Yup, I did that for every research/launch until the last one. Especially for the elevator parts that you don't need for anything else.

[faint ember]

@hollow hornet That's to avoid collision, if it is ever implemented, right?

[hollow hornet]

Ish. They cross at the same level. I don't do over/underpasses at the junctions.

[muted crypt]

For being made in paint this is surprisingly well done! I recommend trying draw.io in the future, though

helps you keep a little tidier 😉

[lone jay]

Thank you @muted crypt I tried really hard on that diagram. I've never really done that before

[bleak coral]

did you overclock the HOR refineries like you did the diluted fuel blenders?

cause if all the blenders are at 105% overclock, 5x HOR refineries @ 100% is only 200 HOR while you need 210 for the 105% diluted fuel blenders

Which actually means you're short on the oil too, since all the HOR refineries at 105% would need 630 oil not 600

[lone jay]

I ran another Oil line of 300 per minute and connected it up to the first HOR in each set.

[tawdry swallow]

anyone have a picture of a 600 belt to 15?

[swift robin]

and you're going to need a lot of computers if you intend to get thru all the game's content...

[livid forge]

fun fact, the biggest you can theoretically make a coal power farm is 52 generators per deposit

• if the deposit is PURE

[wind spade]

--S--S--S--S--S--S--...
  |  |  |  |  |  |
  X  X  X  X  X  X

[livid forge]

^ thats the layout you should use for everything, divide belt throughput by factory consumption, and thats how long you make it.

600/15 gives you 40 so thats how many factories you'd use

[summer fox]

just need to someone to double my logic here if i have a full mk 5 belt going at 780pm that has a spliter to a constructor that needs a item 180pm it would spilt it 290/290 untill the constructor is full then would it go 180(+ afew more on the belt) and rest further down the belt or would it stay 290/290?

[dark summit]

Unless you don't have high tier belts but then you just add more incoming lines, like double manifold

[livid forge]

i'd add another story in that case, unless its using like 200 per minute like the manufacturers can do, then ye i'd add two lanes

[quaint rampart]

Once the machines are full it’ll split 600/180 exactly

Minus any loss due to bugs

[muted crypt]

I'm going to assume you meant 390 here, not 290... but it would initially split 390 going into the first machine and 390 going down the line further; once the first machine fills, only what is needed - i.e. 180 - will be pulled off the main belt, leaving you with a 600/180 split.

[crude canyon]

I doubt pipes will support their full 300/600 flow rate would they?

[frosty owl]

I usually buy HMFs instead when I happen to 😆

[frosty owl]

Afaik you sohld be able to get the max flow for at least one pipe segment. Thus I usually split any 600/min pipe at source so there's only a single maxed pipe segment

[frosty owl]

If you ignore the maxed belt bug, it's just as others said ^^

[oblique hollow]

300 definitely works. 600 only if you dont have too many junctions

[versed forge]

So, I used a manifold for my coal gens. The first ones ended up with a build up of resources and the last ones on the line are barely getting coal at all…

I’m missing some detail? 8 burners and 120 coal/m coming in

[wind spade]

that's how manifolds work, you have to give them time or pre-fill the buildings before they start working at 100%

[oblique hollow]

Each generator will slowly fill up to 100, then the rest moves to the next generator and floods that.

[silver flint]

So ice built my fuel rod facility and my 252 nuclear power plants, that math I'm getting for plutonium rods is just under 13/min

[topaz hedge]

Sounds about right if you're not maximizing plutonium rods.

[silver flint]

Is there an alt I'm not aware of it squeeze more?

[topaz hedge]

A couple for plutonium. One of them uses uranium tho

[silver flint]

Yeah I don't want to use the uranium, I maxed my uranium fir the powerplants just cause

[topaz hedge]

But there's plutonium fuel unit... Uses pressure cubes.

[silver flint]

Ok I havent built the recycling facility yet

[topaz hedge]

I think that's the big one that gives you the most gain.. I dunno if instant plutonium cell gains or loses.

[silver flint]

Yeah I didnt try it because I went with everything to max waste use in my 12 powerplant test bed

[oblique hollow]

According to my math:
133,33333 Non Fissile = 15 Encased Cells with default route

Or

150 Non-Fissile = 20 Cells with Instant

Soooo technically instant is actually better if you want more

[silver flint]

Ok I'll give that a look

[dim solstice]

So I have 4 blenders making Turbofuels that are overclocked to 200% with comes out at 360/min. I want to power Fuel Generators that are over clocked to consume 9 Turbofuel/min. At what percentage would I need to be at since overclocking Fuel Gens is not linear?

[bleak coral]

math to do it is here, and the percentage for 2x is done as an example too: https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Clock_speed#Clock_speed_for_power_generators

[wind spade]

246.2288%

[dim solstice]

Really because I got 246.4%

[wind spade]

that gives you more than two

[bleak coral]

were you just adjusting the slider? cause it totally rounds those at some point, better to do the math

[dim solstice]

oh okie

would a couple decimals really make that big a difference?

[wind spade]

well you definitely don't want to have more than twice, as that will use more fuel than you have

which will eventually break

(break = generators will stop working for a few seconds sometimes, thus not maintaining max possible production)

[dim solstice]

ah

[wind spade]

so 246.2% is safe, you can give it the whole 246.2288% for better accuracy, but you also have to keep the fluid bug in mind, so I'd even go like 246%

[bleak coral]

you'd have a few generators cut out for a bit every few hours, or lose just an itty-bit of power and then not have to think about it

[dim solstice]

Fluid bug?

[bleak coral]

every time the game is loaded machines make 5m^3 disappear

[wind spade]

on each save load, every fluid connector removes 5m3 of fluid

[bleak coral]

I'd actually cut off a couple gens if you want it to be stable

[wind spade]

depending on how many minutes is your average duration of playing session

[bleak coral]

luckily buffers don't count, so you can use some of those too to stave off the inevitable

[wind spade]

245% clock speed gives you ~2.4 hours after load to produce back the 5m3
246% clock speed gives you ~13 hours

so I'd say with 245% you are super safe

[bleak coral]

it's actually surprisingly unnoticeable for most setups, but it's real bad with turbofuel because 5m^3 is like one whole cycle, or a bit more than 1/2 in your case

[dim solstice]

Really? 5m^3 would and can mess up my production of 360m^3/min

By 1/2?

[bleak coral]

because every generator would take 5m^3, so each load it'd be number of generators * 5m^3

[muted crypt]

are we talking about turbofuel?

[bleak coral]

yeah

[muted crypt]

why 5, don't generators take in 4.5?

[bleak coral]

for context the generators are set to draw 9m^3/min instead of 4.5

I'm talking about the bug on load

[muted crypt]

o

right, okay

[south linden]

hey guys someone send me link for calculate in Satisfactory.. but i lost the link lmfao

someone can send it again ?

[muted crypt]

@south linden it's in the pinned messages of this channel all the time :)

The one by greeny is the one you'd probably want

[south linden]

owwww okey thanks @muted crypt !!! 😄

[muted crypt]

Yup np

[bleak coral]

make sure to switch to the update 4 site though

the link in the pins is still for the U3 site

[dim solstice]

So at 245% would there be a point where I would start to back up on turbofuel?

[wind spade]

yes, 2.4 hours after loading a save

[dim solstice]

So would adding buffers mitigate the back up?

Because my session last at least 6 hours

[bleak coral]

backing up isn't really an issue, your production just won't run 100% of the time

it's that or you have some generators drop out after a few save/load cycles

cause the pipes'll be empty and the flow unstable

[dim solstice]

I have power storage in the case of generator drop out

So maybe buffer, power storage, and 245.5%?

[wind spade]

buffers won't help much, it's about how much extra you're producing

[muted crypt]

I don't think anyone cares but maximize seems to say that you can make a little over 40.4k beacons a minute in a single world, power not included

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=WzRZZCu9ETbcMNepZ7S7

[sand epoch]

K?

[quaint rampart]

I have to ask again: who hurt you

[tropic hawk]

and why Beacons?

Late tier, i can get, but beacons?

[quaint rampart]

@muted crypt At least this one doesn't make alumina for the sole purpose of stretching the silica supply

[tropic hawk]

its like automating portable miners. I can see a mid game reason, but really?

[muted crypt]

that was my favorite part of that one 😠

[quaint rampart]

It was so bad!

fwiw a friend and I hashed it out and that factory could work, but you'd need to alternate between making portable miners and making power

and you'd need to use tanks and flushing to dispose of the alumina, there's no spare resources to use to make it shreddable

you can't run nuclear power with only uranium, you need iron, copper, and caterium available, so the factory would have to either shut off or run in a low-power mode sometimes in order to charge batteries to run at full speed

for those of you playing along at home, https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=C60jGXUncQojgINxGjBW

[wind spade]

this is not a meme channel 😉

[muted crypt]

in case anyone cares, max copper ingots, iron ingots, aluminum ingots and caterium ingots all simultaneously being produced - i.e. the only overlap is to not use iron alloy recipe - is 72150, ~130705.714, 13040 and 5520 respectively... which would be approximately 2,634,391.428 points per minute

that's the points equivalent of about 3.6 thermal propulsion rockets per minute lol

which uses SIGNIFICANTLY fewer resources. https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=ehzdha1Y2SF7Csn73eJW

[wind spade]

yeah, each recipe essentially doubles sink point value of the product, alts may do even more (as the points are based on non-alt recipes)

and fun fact: since raw resources have pretty much same sink points as their weights are in my tool, optimising for raw resources is the same as optimising for sink points

(well, similar, as sink points don't have decimals, but still)

[muted crypt]

close enough™️

[brittle terrace]

which encased beam recipe is better the one that uses steel pipes or beams?\

[wind spade]

don't spam in multiple channels

[brittle terrace]

ok

[quaint rampart]

butter

[brittle terrace]

butter? xD

[quaint rampart]

#satisfactory-memes message

[brittle terrace]

ahh xD

[muted crypt]

when you compare 6 encased beams made with the encased pipe recipe vs 6 encased beams made with the base recipe, you'll find you use the same amount of concrete but 33 fewer steel ingots when using the pipe recipe - it's a significant save.

[dark summit]

Is there a formula for amount of energy used by trains? Don't really know where to put this.

[frosty owl]

Should be on the wiki (trains/rails page)

[dark summit]

Ahh ty

[frosty owl]

@bleak coral (thought moving here was more apprope)
Last time I let the factory run long enough for the stations to run out, the ores that ran out were coal, copper (maybe caterium too) and quartz :\

[bleak coral]

oh so the trains aren't moving as fast as you thought? are they getting in each other's way or something? like messing with when they switch tracks?

[frosty owl]

Dunno... the track isn't too convoluted, but the train could be coming too close to one another...?

[noble timber]

There isn’t a formula to my knowledge. Trains will draw anywhere between 25-110MW based on how much work it needs to do to keep accelerating. So you will obviously use more power going up a hill than you would on a straight track. It is also worth noting that if you have 2 trains as one train your power consumption will be double what I would be if you only had one train in that “loop”

So if you were in your train and the HUD is displaying 50MW. You are actually pulling 50 x (number of trains)

[gleaming rapids]

when this says like 6.63x foundries, does that mean something like 6 foundries at 100% and one foundry at 63%?

[oblique hollow]

Yes

[gleaming rapids]

ok

thanks, now to hurt myself figuring out how to balance all those conveyor belt numbers

[oblique hollow]

Hahah have fun balancing

.... Just please dont try to "balance" pipes

Its a nonsense thing and doesnt work

[gleaming rapids]

haha

[dark summit]

thanks

[oblique hollow]

You can estimate where it will draw the most power by judging its current speed and the slope of the track. On a flat track, it will first use max power to accelerate, but as it approaches 120 km/h, that goes down to 25 MW

[gleaming rapids]

lol i just manipoled everything and let the machines do the balancing

[oblique hollow]

Yes very gooood join the manifold side

[gleaming rapids]

manifold is aesthetic

[dark summit]

honestly manifold is great but sometimes like with my basic aluminium setup I just loadbalanced it

[gentle charm]

I find manifolfing the best way to build

Its about the same efficiency as load ballancing and looks better

[frosty owl]

Looks better how?

[wind spade]

idk I find manifolds nicer as well

balancers are weird shapes

[dim solstice]

Ok so even though im making enough turbofuel to power 40 fuel gens that are over clocked to 245%, I am unable to get them all filled with fuel. Might be because I set up 2 pipes to feed 20 fuel gens each

I am able to barely get all but 4 fueled up with out dropping out

[frosty owl]

||Sushi|| Nuclear finally operative 🥳
Ores come in by trains, out come 14.4 Uranium Sushi Rods per minute, with the Rods manifacturers fed by 2 belts (1 with the cells, the other with the rest) and a lot more non-overflowed sushi here and there.
Funfact: there are more smart splitters than normal splitters

And it runs at a very smooth rate

An example of sushi. Left and right are crystal oscillators manifacturers, middle is a beacons manifacturer. Only quartz crystals and rubber are overflowed

@proven prawn @thorn bane @bleak coral

If anyone feels like trying out the save for funzies or see if it jams, feel free to hmu~

||I might have made a mistake with the trains that hasn't shown in the hours I let it run so far ||

Ah, rubber production is in a separate building

[dim solstice]

So after changing out mk1 pipes for mk2 pipes and adding buffers for the Heavy Oil Residue, My Turbo fuel production looks solid so far. All 40 Fuel Gens are powered up and I'm sitting at a comfortable 15000-16000mw

[wet willow]

What planner is that?

[frosty owl]

SCIM

Aka Satisfactory Calculator

[brittle terrace]

what was added in the update lastnight?

[magic shadow]

there wasn't an update that recently, but the latest updates are always in #patch-notes

[floral ice]

How is your consumption the same as your max consumption? My consumption always varies at half the max.

[jade minnow]

If you have all your machines running on 100% efficiency in that power network, it will show the same number for max and for current power consumption

[brittle terrace]

whats the most efficient setup for oil? to get the most out of all the oil i can

[frosty owl]

That's the definite sign of maximum efficiency

[frosty owl]

Depend on your aviable recipes

[brittle terrace]

all of them

[quaint rampart]

the most what

there are three main oil products (plastic, rubber, and fuel) and a few side products (resin, fabric, turbofuel, heavy oil residue), and you can't maximize all of them together past a certain point

[frosty owl]

The best oil route is usually Oil -> HOR + Resin
You then use the resin to make rubber or fabric
The HOR gets turned into fuel to make recycled rubber/plastic or coke if needed

[muted crypt]

hey nerds it's your friendly neighborhood maroonraptor66 here to let you know you can make 13040 empty fluid tanks per minute

I shall return tomorrow with more bullshit

[versed violet]

is that enough to package all the Nitro gas?

[muted crypt]

not even close, it would seem

well, no, sorry, I'm stupid

plenty of packaging yes lol

[bleak coral]

4x compression ftw

that is a far cry though from the 368,013.2 empty canisters per minute that can be created

[muted crypt]

true

[bleak coral]

not gonna package crude with those though, cause it uses all the oil to do it

[versed violet]

Obviously. You package water and sink it for points 💡

[bleak coral]

ok, so I hate this, but using the coated iron canister recipe to package water then sink isn't actually a bad simple sink strat

coated iron canister increases the points by 6.6666x, and then adding water is just more free points cause you can't sink water anyway

[muted crypt]

🤔

[bleak coral]

you're also at T5 by that point, so there's probably better ways, but still

[dark summit]

For mine it's either spilt triangle or the challenge of making one small as possible

[reef turtle]

Or you get fancy with splitting the recipients in half and feeding to either side, while compressing the balancer up the middle.

Which generally requires getting creative with vertical space somewhat.

[fierce ruin]

Manifolds are the best for simplicity, plus having completed Tier 8, I just use Mk5 conveyors/lifts for EVERYTHING

[glacial cypress]

hey all, just looking at fuel consumption rates for fuel generators and burning normal fuel. I'm getting mixed messages or just confusing myself about the burn rate. is the burning rate for a single fuel generator 12m3/m? or 15m3/m?

[frosty owl]

12 iirc
You can make sure of numbers on the wiki btw, it's very reliable 😁

[glacial cypress]

ah nice, thank mate!

[bleak coral]

it used to be 15, you probably saw some old sources say that

[frosty owl]

Btw, as soon as any machine gets enough input to start a production cycle (eg: burning fuel) its UI will update consumption/production numbers to its current clock

[bleak coral]

and for generators that extends to showing the rate of the current fuel inside it

[frosty owl]

Lund, I made it!

Sushi nuclear's a thing!

[bleak coral]

sushi with extra wasabi?

[frosty owl]

Extra spicioactive wasaby

[keen lance]

we need an iterm counter for our factories.
picture this
you have a lonley convayor coming from who knows were connected to machines with who knows what efficiency but you need the items on it so instead of tracing the belt accross the map you place a "splitter" that can count the items teling you the items per min passing thru it...

if it exists i'm gonna die

[fierce ruin]

I was just thinking of a counter the other day. That would be great.

Another thing I want is a combination merger+programmable splitter. 2 inputs, 4 outputs, something like that.

[dark summit]

What I would want is a smart merger

[oblique hollow]

the classic priority merger thing.

i still think they are useless.

Before we get those, why not just straight up implement logic systems

because in the ends thats what people are actually after with those

[twin anchor]

How do you package fluid, train, unpackage and send empty canisters back?

[oblique hollow]

two cars: one for packaged fluid, the other for empty canisters

[twin anchor]

how can I prevent the system getting clogged with too many canisters? Like I want to only take new empties when there aren't enough already?

[oblique hollow]

if it clogs you remove canisters

there is no formula for this so its trial and error

[twin anchor]

Constructor keeps adding new empties when there is no need. System always fills up with empties. If only there were a way of saying only take from constructor if other belt is empty 🙂

[oblique hollow]

do not produce new canisters constantly and add those.
Only add a bunch of canisters at a time and then see if thats enough

automating this step only makes sense if you have a different use for the canisters

if they go to the sink if the belt is full then that has literally no advantage over just.... adding a full storage container worth of canisters to the system

[wicked tinsel]

the priority mergers would be very useful when you have stuff like trains or trucks involved

current meta is to have everything neatly balanced and using 100% input, but it doesnt necessary need to be like this

[oblique hollow]

true you can just go and slap shit down and not care if stuff backs up

or.... doesnt get enough stuff.....

thats kinda how all factories start tbh....

[wicked tinsel]

for example, if you have factory using 400 iron, but your miners only provide 300, you could add a truck and ship additional iron from other site

but then you need priority merger or that truck line will choke the initial miners

unless you go with very careful balancing

that sort of "add more stuff but dont choke earlier ones" would be pretty neat

and currently isnt possible

for the fuel containers, you could also optionally fork the heavy oil->diluted fuel line and ship some containers to fuel your trucks, while priority merging new containers if necessary

this currently needs two separate packager lines

[oblique hollow]

what.... was that just now

[wicked tinsel]

probably some spam?

[oblique hollow]

probably

[wicked tinsel]

got removed instantly

[magic shadow]

unread channels across the board again, oh boy

[oblique hollow]

[muted crypt]

they've been going a lot today

[oblique hollow]

oop, guess it isnt allowed

[opal birch]

Is there somewhere dedicated to talking to mods or do you just dm one?

[oblique hollow]

a server, yes

oh, mods as in moderators?

[opal birch]

Yes.

[oblique hollow]

not really. just ping the role and ask

[opal birch]

Aight. <@&387163995947270144> There's a satisfactory layout tool called salt who's link I think should be whitelisted.

Eh it'll probably be lost in the flood of other pings everyone gets for no reason.. I'll wait a day.

[oblique hollow]

i think salt is already mentioned on the wiki but nobody ever checks the special pages....

[muted crypt]

oof

[small sapphire]

4-1=5 if you fold over 1 corner of a piece of paper you get 5 corners in total

[versed violet]

Meta question:
What is the realistic maximum span for an 1m thick reinforced concrete beam?
E.g. you build a line of 1m foundations in real life, how long can it be between support points before it breaks under own weight? 80 meters (10 foundations) sounds plausible or nah?

[abstract copper]

That sort of thing would prolly be done with arches between supports instead of flat, but I'm not that kind of engineer so I dunno.

[versed violet]

where are the material engineers when you need them

[oblique hollow]

depends on which type of steel and their profile

[oblique hollow]

theres a lot of assumptions to be made:
Width, height, thickness, material

hold on....

[versed violet]

Just needs some sane estimates. Trying to add "structural integrity" flavor into my buildings. Obviously empty foundation line can be longer than one you put ton of refineries on.

[oblique hollow]

ok, according to some....eerrrrr well meant assumptions:

a 100 m long beam will bend down about 2.38 m, in the middle

a 200 m long beam would have bent down 38 m

sooo without TOOO much deformation, 50 m is sorta safe

there its just 14 cm

which is realistically already too much

but for satis somewhat reasonable

at 20 m length its just 3 cm

[versed violet]

wait, an 100m+ beam of thickness 1m will bend, not straight on collapse?

[oblique hollow]

according to the math, yes
its all about the second moment of inertia

I-beams are made to bear such loads

though the weight of this 1 m x 1m thick behemoth is ridiculous

[versed violet]

I'm pretty surprised.

Do you have ony online clalcuator that allows calculating this with extra load beyond concrete own weight?

[oblique hollow]

oh concrete?

i just did the math for a raw steel beam

and its a ridiculously thick one at that

[versed violet]

Full square or I beam one? From what I gather, I beam has same load bering, just without the extra encumberance.

[oblique hollow]

hold on a moment gottaa.... paste something else too

this is not a torsion problem

its bending

[silver flint]

Trying to figure out plutonium processing fir 22 4 rods but the satisfactory calculator is just spinning its gears. Probably because of my connection

[deft lichen]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production this one?

[silver flint]

Thanks let me see if i can get that to work. I was using the 1 on scim

[cosmic swift]

which biofuel is better to use

[muted crypt]

none of them, use something fully automatable

If you truly have to use something, however, liquid biofuel is the most efficient stage of biofuel

[cosmic swift]

what should I try and use

[oblique hollow]

get to tier 3 and get coal power

until then, use solid biofuel for the burners (if you can automate the production)

[cosmic swift]

solid biofuel is better than normal biofuel

[oblique hollow]

it burns longer

so you dont have to refill as often

[muted crypt]

burnables < biomass < solid biofuel < liquid biofuel ( in terms of efficiency )

You may notice this is exactly the same order of "refinement"

[cosmic swift]

oh right sweet

[river night]

liquid biofuel is tier 5, at that point you definitely shouldnt have much use for it anymore

even for vehicles solid biofuel is easier because it stacks higher

[muted crypt]

I can see liquid biofuel being useful only as a sort of "emergency power" when things turn to shit, sort of like backup generators - just toss in and process any burnables you get and it'll hold the LB until it's needed

[bleak coral]

that's what power storages are for

you can keep a spare grid of them of them

[thorn bane]

the fact that liquid biofuel is in the game is just an oversight from the pipe update
its trash dont use it

[bleak coral]

it's not even technically the top of the energy multiplication chain for biomass/wood, that's biocoal/charcoal

though if it stacked to 200 when packaged, it'd at least replace solid biofuel as portable fuel for burners when hard drive hunting and decent energy density for personal vehicles

[jagged rampart]

hey, does someone knwo how to divide by 5 with splitters ?

[wind spade]

-->--S--S--S--S--S
     |  |  |  |  |
     X  X  X  X  X

S = splitter
X = machine

[jagged rampart]

sure? it wont do half and half like this?

[wind spade]

it will at first, but then the first machine overflows and therefore all the extra items go to second machine, etc. It's called "manifold" and it's generally preferred over balancing, as it'll just take a few minutes to start and will work the same at the end (and you can also pre-fill the machines anyway)

[jagged rampart]

oh okay tysm I didn't know about that !

[high seal]

don't you need smart splitters for that? For Overflow?

[wind spade]

no, if one belt is full, then it automatically pushes items to other belts

even normal splitters do that, you can test it - put two output belts, put items onto the input belt, remove part of one output belt, all items will go through the other belt

[high seal]

:O

and I rushed for smart splitters, duh

[wind spade]

the overflow for smart splitters works differently. It pushes ALL items in one direction and if that direction is full, then it pushes them to the overflow direction. Normal splitters split 1:1 between belts, but if one belt is backed up, the splitter doesn't push to that belt until it clears up

[burnt wraith]

how many items do splitters store?

[thorn bane]

7 afaik

sorry 9

[vapid tendon]

are there cases where it doesn't overflow if the input is low at times? i think that's the case for my builds

[oblique hollow]

why is it low at times

bad efficiency?

[wind spade]

no matter what your input is, manifold will always work the same as balancer, so there's no need to build balancers. But yes, if you don't have enough items, not all machines will run at 100%

[vapid tendon]

...time to save a lot of space and delete all my balancers

[bleak coral]

The one place you could need a balancer is for trains, while unloading after the ISC buffer you could need a 2:2 balancer cause ISC outputs aren't stable

that's if your output is >780 only of course

[wind spade]

or just unload one cart to one belt

[thorn bane]

also radioactive stuff
50 uranium fuel rods per splitter is alot

[molten whale]

im bad at splitters how can i put 1950 fluid into 10 separate pipes each with 195

[wind spade]

pipe balancers don't work, just do a manifold

[molten whale]

what is a manifold

[wind spade]

--+--+--+--+
  |  |  |  |

[molten whale]

ahh i see

10/10 diagram

[muted crypt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/558721941410807812/889593753327792168/ProofOfConceptManifolding.png

shameless plug of my own diagram explaining manifolding and how it balances itself step by step

[wind spade]

well they were asking about pipes, so that's irrelevant here, but nice diagram anyway 😛

[muted crypt]

oh I didn't even see the second one, I saw the one a little earlier - wasn't scrolled down

I'm seeing now that was... four hours ago

[molten whale]

ok i tried some manifold designs but none are good for what im trying to do, so i have 6 300/m pipes and 1 150/m pipe but only 5 train stations with no space for more what do you guys reccomend

[median thunder]

assuming the output things back up

[wind spade]

no, always

[median thunder]

uh what

no

[wind spade]

no matter if you use manifold or balancer to connect machines, they'll work at the same total efficiency % at the end

[median thunder]

yeah, combined, you'll process the same number of items per second

a manifold overusing the first constructor in a line is most often not an issue, but it could be if you don't immediately merge the lines back together

[wind spade]

if you don't have enough resources to satisfy all machines, then it again doesn't matter too much if you'll use manifolds or balancers, because either only part of your production will work at 100% or all of your production will work at reduced %

[median thunder]

*under the assumption that utilization distribution is irrelevent

[wind spade]

which it is

[median thunder]

not always

if you have 5 iron ingots per second going into three constructors, the first two iron rods the second iron plates, and then you have the iron plates used in some other production line while iron rods go into a sink (or maybe just a big storage system)

[wind spade]

it's hardly the manifold's fault at that point

it's just bad planning

[median thunder]

it's a contrived example sure

but to say they are strictly equivalent just isn't really right

[wind spade]

they are irrelevant in 99% of factories and in remaining ones they can change something but they definitely won't fix anything

in your example you may start getting more rods to sink, but at a cost of decreased plate production, which could and would cause issues further down the line

[sand epoch]

Floor plan for what?

[dark summit]

Have plates first, overflow if any would go to the rods

[muted crypt]

today's bullshit is making myself a reference sheet for relative machine sizes in app.diagrams.net for when I make my layouts

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/894241619702841374/894257914108342322/unknown.png

Things I did not include:

• miners, oil extractors, water extractors, well extractors/pressurizers
• walls, light structures, walkways;
• structures with inconsistent shape (belts, pipes, rails, hypertubes)
• vehicles
• logistic supports (pipe/belt/hypertube poles/stackers)
• power poles
• non-automated structures (AWESOME Shop, MAM, Craft Bench, Equipment Workshop; the HUB is exception)

I just need to work on laying this out a bit better

[lethal shell]

Tis a good idea

[muted crypt]

right now I just see the space elevator as that big square in the corner and it's just.. yeesh

[lethal shell]

I'll probably reference it from time to time so I can start getting an idea of stuff lol

[muted crypt]

also, what the fuck, Coffee Stain? The Train Station structure is 32m wide, but all other structures involving trains (Freight/Fluid Freight/Empty Platforms) are only 30m wide!

[lethal shell]

-v(' .')v-
But I like Load Balancers over Manifolds

Because objective truth is meaningless to me

[muted crypt]

I like the simplicity of manifolds, I don't mind the long startup time because I usually just spend that time doing something else anyway

[lethal shell]

Seriously though I don't have a single manifold in my current playthrough

I personally like the challenge of load balancing

[wind spade]

challenge of doing pointless things because you can is weird, but who am I to judge

[lethal shell]

-v(' .')v-

makes me feel big brain

Plus it adds layers of complexity to my factory and makes it more interesting to look at

[muted crypt]

I'm thinking of adding more colored boxes such as this one for similarly-grouped structures - maybe generators in one, storage in another, etc. Thoughts?

The letters/shapes indicate what they are in my diagrams.

[lethal shell]

I sees

[muted crypt]

and then all of them are 4m x 4m so I just noted that in the top corner

[lethal shell]

I was about to ask why bother making different icons for them

[muted crypt]

When you make a flow chart for programming, the "typical" notation for a choice (a conditional of some sort) is a diamond, indicating a singular path will split into at least two outputs. I used the same mentality to indicate that all splitters are diamonds here.

[lethal shell]

fancy

[muted crypt]

Pipeline junctions are... odd... because they're both splitters and mergers

because they have the ability to merge, and I already had a P being used for diamond (Programmable Splitters), I went with a circle with a P for pipeline junctions.

[lethal shell]

Pipeline junctions are scary

[oblique hollow]

not really

unless you try to use them balancer style

then you will suffer. a lot

[muted crypt]

lol

[lethal shell]

I'm a balancer stan but I don't even know how you would use Junctions in a balancer manner and I don't think I want to

[oblique hollow]

junctions are manifold only really

since machines want to be full anyway

[lethal shell]

Yeah,

Plus you wouldn't get to see the load balancing happen

even if it could happen

[oblique hollow]

pipes are closed anyway

due to the current loading bug, 100% efficiency doesnt work. you need overflow regardless

[lethal shell]

any idea when le bug will be fixed?

[oblique hollow]

nope

[muted crypt]

🤔 well this is what I got.

I may need to increase text sizes across the board

[muted crypt]

Increased text sizes. It's still small, but it's better.

Original size was 12, new size is 16

[true pelican]

Are these the actual measurements?

[burnt wraith]

just for reference you could add a foundation

[muted crypt]

yes

[muted crypt]

good call, actually! Let me add that!

I wasn't entirely sure where to put it... lol

[versed violet]

WHY are these corners rounded??? All the machines in question have rectangular bounding boxes.

[also, listing all train stations separately is moot - just list it once with all fourc types in description?]

[wind spade]

train station has different size than the platforms

[fierce ruin]

How about adding the heights?
As a separate line, XxYxZ gets confusing.

[versed violet]

Aaaalso 2: It might be useful to add HX for heights. Planning floors etc. For some of the things both the box-height and actual model height, eg manufacturers will happily let you clip the upper quarter.

[versed violet]

Are you sure? never noticed any diference. They all have triangle sloped sides.

[fierce ruin]

And I'd use M for Merger, S for Splitter, SS for Smart Splitter and PS for Programable Splitter.

[wind spade]

look at the image above 😛

[versed violet]

In case of that image I'd recommend to put them all side-to-side so the difference can be spotted. Guidelines may be welcome

[fierce ruin]

I'm not seeing the A.W.E.S.O.M.E. Shop, Equipment Workshop or Craft Bench?
(Though I still can't read the thing to the left of the Foundry.)

[muted crypt]

Literally just the shape I chose.

I'm not adding height solely because of the soft and hard clearance being added

[fierce ruin]

Too bad it isn't the real shape, I'd love to be able to fit a power pole between 4 fuel generators.

[muted crypt]

is power pole given soft or hard clearance?

[fierce ruin]

That hasn't been added yet has it?

As they are now the bottoms can be clipped by foundations and belts (?) but not the middles. And probably not the tops.

[bleak coral]

I don't think they showed power poles in the video. Though now that I think about it if they get soft clearance, they might as well add daisy-chaining for machines. Cause if they go inside the hitboxes we can basically do that.

[fierce ruin]

Oh, that would be confusing!

[muted crypt]

give me daisy chain or give me death

[fierce ruin]

How do you tell if the machine is connected to the pole inside it?

[bleak coral]

I mean you'd have to have a little bit sticking out, or you couldn't connect it

[fierce ruin]

That was just dawning on me.

But that would look wierd.

[bleak coral]

though to be fair to the idea of them with soft-clearance, this just a differnt, easier version of using outlets on the bottom of foundations in the same way

[bleak coral]

bet I could make it look good on some machines with the right pole in the right place, could make it just look like an extra connection point

yeah the more I think about this, the more I'm fine with it, it's extra work for aesthetics

and definitely more work than daisy chaining would be

[fierce ruin]

Anyway the hardish hit boxes they have now is annoying when it makes you move a pole with 5 or 6 connections, it's pretty hard to make sure you get them all reconnected.

[muted crypt]

In theory, with what we have right now, couldn't we just have a ceiling power attachment attached on the underside of a foundation, in the exact same X/Z where the wire would attach to a machine, to make it so a straight up and down cable just goes into the floor

[fierce ruin]

Yeah, I'd think so, but you might have to remove a foundation or 2 to target the machine.

[muted crypt]

That's fine

[fierce ruin]

Or target the machine and then run down stairs so you can target the attachment.

[muted crypt]

Plus I'm thinking like... have a 1m tall foundation, another 1m space for the cabling, and then a 1m at the bottom, and then hide it with the smaller walls for added decoration

(ofc this would be starting with U5)

So no poles or wires in sight (mostly)

[bleak coral]

yup, I did this with like 100ish fuel gens, looks nice

[muted crypt]

nice

[bleak coral]

but I did do what hex said: remove a row of foundations to be able to target them without going back and forth

[frosty owl]

I like a lot how balanced belts can be used to know the state your machines are in
-Belt full: machine's output is backing up
-Belt empty: not enough source
-In between: ✅ efficiency

[lethal shell]

This is true

[wind spade]

well same could be said about manifolds 🙂

[frosty owl]

Aren't manifolds only full/not full?

If a manifolded input isn't full, it's automatically "case 2" of the balanced equivalent

[oblique hollow]

if manifold isnt filled to the brim on all but the last 2, theres a problem

[frosty owl]

Ye. When you balance you can check any machine and know the state of all others exactly

[wind spade]

that's only assuming your balancer is built correctly and game doesn't do random stuff to throw it off (which the game often does)

also with manifolds you know roughly the percentage of machines running by looking at the last few indicators

[frosty owl]

"well same could be said about manifolds" 😆

[wind spade]

well manifolds are pretty much impossible to build wrong, compared to balancers

[frosty owl]

It's all about how precise one is

At least if you balance you don't need ages to notice and spot mistakes

[wind spade]

"ages" = same amount of time it takes you to design said balancer

also you can just prefill

[frosty owl]

Heh, say that to anything involving concrete or manufactured products

[wind spade]

by the time you're done building your factory, manifold is already filled. not to mention that it usually takes like 10% of the fill time to start working over 80%

[frosty owl]

And that's how you like to build
But that doesn't give manifolds more than 2 states you can judge of them (which was the difference you pointed out): belt full, belt not full

[wind spade]

there's actually three

input > consumption
input = consumption
input < consumption

[frosty owl]

You don't differ between 1 and 2 in manifolded belts

[wind spade]

you do
1 - all machines are full
2 - all but last two machines are full

[frosty owl]

It's just a belt backing up in both scenarios

[frosty owl]

2 is quite an edge case to make such a point ||see what I did there ||

[wind spade]

2 is what will be the case in 95% of manifolds

[frosty owl]

Didn't you consider manifolds to be filled from the moment the machines start due to backed up materials, though?

[wind spade]

no? I consider all production running at all times because when storage is full, overflow goes to sink

[frosty owl]

You said there's no actual boot time since by the time you finish bulding the manifold stuff, is full already
So from the moment you start building a set of machines, the manifold immediately gets filled up from the previous stage

[wind spade]

well that depends a lot on when and what you connect, but even then, it doesn't really make any difference, since the "new" manifold will be filling from the "old" manifold at much higher speed than normally because there's backed up products that make the production temporarily "higher"

[frosty owl]

The manifold (and machines) will indeed fill up faster than normal, but at the end of the day the stage is going to fill up and the last two machines more likely than not will too (from the stored materials), since it can't consume more than it recives until it's completed

[wind spade]

I mean the same thing happens with balancers, so 🤷

[frosty owl]

Then again, you'd already be "ruining" the difference between cases 1 and 2 on the input manifold of the previous stage by allowing it to back up to feed the next manifold anyway ^^

[muted crypt]

*DiCaprio pointing meme*

[frosty owl]

Nope, balancers don't provide more than machines consume, which is the point ^^

[muted crypt]

alternatively, Simpsons bus driver meme: "don't make me tap the sign"

[wind spade]

if you let them fill the same way as manifolds in your case, then yes, they will be full

[frosty owl]

"If you treat a balancer like a manifold it'll work kinda like a manifold"
Agreeable xD

[wind spade]

if [manifold/balancer] is filled due to not taking output out, then it will be filled.

so I'm assuming you're not letting it fill to full capacity

[frosty owl]

And that's "case 1" I mentioned, but over time it can convert back to cases 2 or 3 (unlike a manifold that gets stuck in this state)

[wind spade]

neither manifold nor balancer can really convert between cases. Either you have more or equal or less input and assuming it doesn't change for some reason (e.g. disconnected belt), it will stay in the same case forever

[muted crypt]

if the balancer is set up to only provide X per minute and only consume X per minute total across all outputs, any excess Y sitting on the belt will always remain^^ This assumes the excess doesn't just go into the machine's storage for the needed components, of course, but then that excess just sits inside the machine when it shouldn't be there in the first place

[frosty owl]

Why shouldn't a balancer convert back?
Assume you clog the output of some balanced iron plates. Once you let them output the plates, they'll take in 60/min each from the belt, freeing the input belt from ingots until it can only output the balanced amount (30/min)
Conversly, the manifolded example can keep outputting stockpiled ingots and the input belt of the constructors would still be full

[frosty owl]

Oh yeah, my brain is totally frying right now

[muted crypt]

glad I could help

[frosty owl]

But yeah, when you balance and your input belt is full, you know there is (or has been) an issue

I usually blame trains

[wind spade]

ok this is getting too complicated and convoluted, and I'm not even sure what you're talking about, as it seems that the initial point was already lost, so let's start over:

I'm assuming output is not blocked (why would you do that when you can sink) and input is constant.

In that case, both balancers and manifolds can exist in one of the three states I mentioned above and would not switch between them, since the states depend only on input and consumption (both constant). Manifold will have extra stage before, when it'll be filling, but after it's stabilised, it ends in one of those three states. In both manifolds and balancers, those states can be determined by looking at the build for small period of time and/or checking machines.

[frosty owl]

Aye, where in balancers you can actually include the warmup time in that "small period of time", making troubleshooting quite fast

[wind spade]

that case sounds weird. Either you can output more plates (because the machines further down the line can accept them) or you can't output more (because the machines down the line aren't fast enough to accept them). If you let balancers backed up for long enough, belts will also be full and won't empty, same as manifold.

[oblique hollow]

oh heck this old topic again

[frosty owl]

Though that might be me, I also find it very convenient that ANY machine can tell me the state of the entire setup, rather than a few ones with specific splacement

[frosty owl]

What, people gotta talk about something 🤷‍♂️

[oblique hollow]

you can take a glance at manifold, you can take a glance at balancer

[frosty owl]

Don't even mention that, it's the result of a brainfart, so much so I didn't even bother editing it 😅

[wind spade]

on the other hand, manifold can tell you more than just the state, it can tell you roughly how much is missing (by looking at % of running machines)

[oblique hollow]

both have indicators. just cause balancer offer more visibility doesnt make it any better

[frosty owl]

You mean the % of the last 2 machines, right?

[oblique hollow]

if last machines are at poo %, you need more stuff

[wind spade]

no I mean for example if 50% of all the buildings run on average, then you're only supplying 50% of the required input

[frosty owl]

"More visibility" = "Better" for me xD

[oblique hollow]

thats opinion

slash preference

[strong mica]

Opinions on a factory as to if I'm forgetting anything for late electronics tiers.
https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=BTuv5TFha2ifSzUktRsO
I need to tweak the numbers again a bit as I added some new items for late game.
hate to jump in on a deep discussion.

[frosty owl]

How does that work? Doesn't manifold shift the "inefficiency" towards the last machines anyway? Each machine should have different efficiency between the ones at 100% and the end of the line

Assuming a 1 sided manifold for simplicity

[wind spade]

I'm not looking at the machine efficiency, I'm looking whether or not the machine is running (can do that from far, using the indicators)

[oblique hollow]

the fact that it needs crystal oscillators is something i personally dont like. they are too high tier imo to make computers with

[frosty owl]

Right, and I like a lot how balancers do show their state easily and everywhere

[oblique hollow]

im lazy thus i dont like balancer

[strong mica]

IDK, I also have caterium computer. Tool liked crystal better.

[muted crypt]

in terms of raw materials consumed relative to map-wide limits, yes, it'll like crystal computer better

[frosty owl]

Oh, that you could just do by looking at the graph imo, but regardless, that's what I love about balancing: each machine is in the same state. Just check any (yellow OR not) and you can know everything about all the factory

Eg: ONE machine is running at 75% efficiency but the output is not clogged? The factory lacks 25% input/min

[wind spade]

oh right you mean the indicator that works like 10% of the time? 😛

[oblique hollow]

each machine at the same inefficiency. ah yes, peak inefficiency

for even bigger power fluctuation

[strong mica]

wow, that cuts the manufacturer count in half

[oblique hollow]

yep. oscillators are expensive

[frosty owl]

Personally, I use the belts to judge as I almost always have 30 or 60/min inputs and such, but yes. It's decently accurate when between 5 and 95% imo and for my purposes

[wind spade]

well you can use belts to judge in manifolds as well 😛

and tbh I'm not sure you can judge between case 2 and 3 just by looking at belts in balancers

[strong mica]

I think I'll switch. I have 3 pure caterium nodes near to me. not a huge issue.

[oblique hollow]

caterium computer and caterium circuit boards are quite the good combo. but if you have quartz nearby, silicon CBs are also quite good, imo

[wind spade]

well tool just calculates "most weighted resource efficient", but you can disable recipes you don't like to force it to use something else 😉

[frosty owl]

It's pretty easy to tell if a mk1 belt has 20, 30 or 60/min on it. Similar for mk2 and up

[strong mica]

I even considered electrode circuit boards as I have extra coke.

[wind spade]

it's pretty hard to tell if it has 28/min or 30/min 🤷

[strong mica]

one more thing to ship though.

[oblique hollow]

they gobble up oil like nothing, thats why they arent preferred usually

[frosty owl]

You mean the belts of the last 2 machines...? 🙄
Isn't the easiest with a manifold to check the original input belt and try to visually tell how much more it should carry?

[wind spade]

well easiest is to calculate how much you need and never do guessing game based on anything

[frosty owl]

If it's lower machines are yellow, if it's higher the belt (or machines' inventories) backs up

[oblique hollow]

consume a lot of rubber for less output than base recipe

[frosty owl]

And then assume you always get your numbers right, never missclick a belt and never ever have to do troubleshooting ^^

[oblique hollow]

45 coke = 15 HOR/min

the only upside to them is they can be made entirely from oil

[wind spade]

if you want to do troubleshooting, you want to do it properly anyway, not rush to first conclusion by looking at something

[frosty owl]

You can "rush" to conclusions if you set up your system so that it gives you easily (and quickly) the answers you seek of it ;)

[muted crypt]

I can look at belts just as easily as I can look at machines, except there's more effort involved for checking machines because I have to press an extra two buttons when interacting - one to go in and one to go out

[strong mica]

Thanks for the advice though. Love the tool btw.

[frosty owl]

Those answers being (for me): Fill state of the input (starve, ok, or overflow), fill state of output (clogged, ok, or too little) and some more miscellanious infos depending on factory

[wind spade]

the answer you seek isn't "it's wrong" (which is what it gives to you), but "how wrong is it" (for which you need to do more troubleshooting anyway, no matter what system you use)

the point why I personally prefer manifolds is that balancers are another point of failure (it's way easier to misplace something in a balancer, than make a mistake in a row of splitters 🙂 )

[frosty owl]

No, I first seek the "IF" there is an issue, then do further troubleshooting. And this further troubleshooting is actually quite simple as it requires to check a single machine anywhere along the line ^^
Note: to find an issue in a balanced system, you can simply look at the power graph of the factory in the past minute if you have it aviable

[wind spade]

single machine anywhere along the line ^^
and pray to ficsit that the info it displays is correct (which based on number of people complaining about efficiency display here seems like flip a coin scenario)

[frosty owl]

Sure, the latter is the same in a manifold assuming you sink stuff ^^

[frosty owl]

For the purposes of the troubleshooting, that works well enough:
efficiency at 98/99%: all good, light is green, why did you check in the first place?!
Efficiency at 98< x <2: you can parse how much input you're lacking by that number (of course, with a grain of salt) if looking at the balanced belt wasn't enough of an indication

[muted crypt]

98< x <2
TIL 2 > 98

[frosty owl]

...I need to sleep

But first I need to sushi some plastic production and fry my brain some more... brb

[fringe sequoia]

I've got a few machines that should be supplying the final assemblers in the chain with exactly the same/less then enough material required per min, but somehow when I check the machines they're overstocked. Are there any ways that can happen?

[frosty owl]

1. One of the materials is lacking, making the others back up while the machine starves for the first material
2. The output is full and the machine can't consume the inputs
3. The clock is wrong compared to your calculations
4. Just some of the machines have issues and back up, then the materials end up backing up in the rest of the machines too

[thorn bane]

i just trust my math 🤷

[fringe sequoia]

Might be the second, I had to underclock one side so there's 2 machines outputting 9.9 into a machine that needs 20, I'll see if I can pop one up to 10.1 to counter it

Cheers for the help!

[versed violet]

Satisfactorio in British English actually respects the spelling. I'm impressed.
Center -> Centre in UK.
[And Colour Gun/ammo too!]

[analog dome]

So I want to know the math behind finding out how many machines I'll need for a factory creating 20 modular frames

How do I go about that?

[oblique hollow]

step one: start with the recipe you wanna use for the frames

theres 1 base recipe and 2 alternative recipes

if you want 20 frames:

1. thats 10 assemblers with the base recipe
2. 4 assemblers with the bolted frame recipe
3. 7 assemblers for the steeled frame recipe (6 and one at 66,666%)

and then, depending on which recipe you use, you go down a step and look at the next parts, like reinforced iron plates

[quaint rampart]

hey @wind spade why does it do this

[oblique hollow]

probably rounded from like 0.004 or something

it gets confused with big numbers

and then does odd stuff with small numbers

[quaint rampart]

also I have a bug to report

I know Magic Machines is a thing but maybe the calculator shouldn't use it 😉

[oblique hollow]

did you maximize something?

[quaint rampart]

I did

does maximizing output make iron wire weird or something?

[oblique hollow]

yeah. maximize breaks sometimes

[quaint rampart]

ah

[oblique hollow]

its not just iron wire. it just happens somewhere sometimes

[river night]

you can note down the output it suggests and put it into the target

that usually works

[wind spade]

yeah tool broken, lazy dev can't fix issues

[brittle terrace]

if i have 3 imputs how would i go about making it 4 even outputs

if i have 3 imputs how would i go about making it 4 even outputs

[calm abyss]

Have your 3 inputs going into a splitter with two outputs, then have each output go to a splitter with 2 more outputs, should make 4 even outputs

[brittle terrace]

i didnt meant to post that twice thank u

[exotic shell]

can I get some help with splitting?

• 1 Mk1 miner feeding 2 constructors
• one constructor needs 15 items per minute
• one constructor needs 12 iron per minute

is there a way to use the splitters to make it distribute evenly?
or split those evenly and have excess go to another constructor that i set to the excess rate?
does any of that make sense?

[bleak coral]

you can just split it in half and it'll eventually balance, I'm sure there's a balancer solution, but it'd be a pita

splitters work by alternating between exits, and then skipping the ones it can't use (cause they're not connected or they're backed up)

so once a line is backed it up it'll take what's needed

[exotic shell]

yea right now i have one splitter, but its just backed up and i was curious if i could do something about it

[bleak coral]

nothing wrong with a backed up line, if the machines are getting what they need

you eventually get the ability to change clock speeds too (go find a slug), and then you can underclock that miner

[exotic shell]

yea i have clock speeds already, but my miner and smelter are constantly turning on and off and I was wondering if there was a way I could just make it smooth or just use the excess

[ruby mural]

You can always split off the excess into some new project.

[bleak coral]

or just downclock the machines to what you need instead of running them at 100%

[exotic shell]

i do downclock, but its just that the machines its feeding are an uneven split so one backs up and then it overflows to the other and then its all backing up to the miners

[native oak]

This is probably a newb question but if I upgrade to a tier 2 miner for coal can it support 2 coal power plants AND 2 foundries (Steel production)?

[burnt wraith]

just count the miner's output against the power plants' and foundries' input

it depends on the recipe and the node purity

although if you haven't started steel yet, you're limited to 120 coal

I don't think there's ever a reason to not upgrade miners though

[native oak]

Okay. I just ran into a problem where 2 power plants and 2 foundries ate all of the coal being produced by a Mk.1 Miner on a pure node (ran into a power outage situation)

So yeah, going to upgrade to the Mk.2 miner

and the steel recipe I have is the coal and iron ore one

[quaint ember]

rip. I got the compacted one pretty early but really had to go on a drive hunt to get the solid one

but yeah, once you start making belts out of steel you can get 270/min out of a node with a slight overclock, or a big one if the miner is mk1/the node isn't pure

[frosty owl]

@thorn bane Finally made my first priority merging system.
I output from this area belts of 600/min caterium-copper to quick-fill 10 refineries (10 mk1 belts = 600) so there's no filling time for the manifold.
The extra then comes back to the unloading area to be priority merged (after being smart split in pure belts) so the stations will back up and not the main sushi belts

And yes, yellow is caterium, red is copper ^^

[thorn bane]

nice 🙂

[charred ledge]

e

[frosty pawn]

each tier is double the output of the previous tier so if your mk1 miner could support 1 coal power plant and 1 foundry then upgrading it to mk2 will support 2 coal power plants and 2 foundries

[noble fulcrum]

hey does anyone know how long it takes for a drone to load/unload a full load and how long it takes to take off?

nvm found it out

[sand epoch]

the load/unload time is included in the round trip #.. what would you need the breakdown for?

[zealous tide]

@azure gust this is 50 smelters alone side by side. takes up a 6x8 area by themselves

5x10 with one meter of space in between each

[azure gust]

ooo, this channel sparks my interest

I think I can run 3x16-17 offset slightly so that I can run lifts to another floor [or two]

[azure gust]

alright, bank #1 [12x refineries feeding 60x smelters] is nearly complete

just need to handle output and power

[empty glade]

But you can't do that; you need space to feed and extract materials as well

[zealous tide]

yeah was just for an example, wanted to see how much just the smelters took

[frosty owl]

Nothing better than some SaLT to do that

[karmic needle]

I need to do a LOT of construction

[earnest glen]

things are gonna get much, MUCH worse pretty soon 🙂

[upbeat tide]

Thats small time no offense

I know its far in your future but put into a planner nuclear rods or turbo motors you will see what I mean

[earnest glen]

how's going with you're nuclear setup?

[upbeat tide]

Took a break for a bit but about to get back to it

I have to tear up my reactors as the setup isnt working. Aka OC 250% nuclear reactors is a big headache

[earnest glen]

i'm still a couple of projects far from nuclear, but soon will become a thing

[upbeat tide]

Yea my waste processing center is getting...big

Dont have a good screenshot but this is closest I have. This is only 1/4 of the total non fissle uranium setup done

The other quarter is done now too, a mirror image. Final segments would also be the same just on far side of this

Each block supports one 600 a min uranium waste belt

And thats not even all of it. The sulfuric acid step isnt on this floor.

Each nitrogen gas pipe is setup to only have 300m3 gas in it to deal with fluid bugs

[frosty owl]

All the big builders got triggered by that one message

[upbeat tide]

Im one of them 🙂

[frosty owl]

I was referring to you two pals :P

[upbeat tide]

😉

This is the nuclear setup scheduled for demolition.

Unfortunately due to several fluid bugs a 250% OC nuclear reactor is unstable

[frosty owl]

Totally haven't told you :P

Below 250 would be fine, but isn't 250 equal to ~200.0...01% production speed?
So the water needed is more than 600/min in the first place

(Not that you can sustain 600/min easily anyway, especially if you want to account for the load bug)

[upbeat tide]

^^ you said that after this was done 🙂 as I didnt really talk about it before

And im planning max uranium waste usage so just want to redo it and not mess with it

[zealous tide]

any big brains that can find a more efficient/lower building count combination of recipes for heavy module frames? maxing out 4 manufacturers making 11.25 HMF per minute I've done sooooo many combos and I think that this is the winner

97 buildings, 1090 power, 500 coal, 671 iron, 405 limestone, 337 water

[upbeat tide]

Nope you really cant get better than that

Maybe pure iron ingot alt but thats about it

[zealous tide]

yeah i considered that but it just adds too many buildings, trying to keep as small a footprint as possible as well as resource efficiency

i think actually beams instead of pipes is halfway decent but then u have to use heavy encased beam as well and that loses effiency

[upbeat tide]

Yea your pretty much at min/max already

[zealous tide]

i also tried the bolted frames with steel screws and that was more power and buildings

[upbeat tide]

Yes use the alt for encased beams

[zealous tide]

yeah i wish there was a stronger alt for iron plates. gimme steel plates damnit!

[upbeat tide]

I did mine to 60/min HMF using casted screws and bolted frames/plates but also want concerned about power use

[zealous tide]

yeah i think that uses like double the iron though

[upbeat tide]

There is coated plates but your adding in oil products

[zealous tide]

exactly yeah too much complexity

i'm trying to find the best blend between optimal efficiency/resource maximizing and not too many steps. i want to design my factory around this concept and make it very tidy and clean

[upbeat tide]

Yea my way uses alot of iron but also not exactly concerned about it

Best blend you already have

Cant get better than that.

[zealous tide]

awesome i spent a long time calculating and messing about but glad i didn't miss anything

[upbeat tide]

Only option for true min max is to add pure iron into it but its not really useful here

So I wouldnt

[zealous tide]

ye maybe if i'm suddenly strapped for iron in this area i'll retrofit it somehow but this definitely feels strong, but also compact. i would take 20% less effiency for a 30% space savings, though

[upbeat tide]

For example my dedicated steel foundry does not use pure iron either and it makes 3600 steel ingots

And thats for ratio issues. Pure iron is a messy recipe ratio wise and solid steel is very clean

[zealous tide]

still torn on building a mega processing/distribution center or just individual factories which supply themselves. so far i've built infrastructure independently for each factory but scaling that seems difficult

[zealous tide]

yeah thats another great point

[earnest glen]

can't wait to compare results (probably in a month lol, when building that big completion time raise pretty quickly)

[upbeat tide]

Pure iron takes in lets say 300 iron ore and makes 557 ingots

Its just really hard to ratio out cleanly

You get 1114 ingots from 600 ore

[frosty owl]

My preferred combo for the best speed-efficiency (with a slight preference for speed) includes these differences:
-Normal frames
-Bolted plates
-Steel screws

Slight increase in coal for the same output, but a bit less machines

[earnest glen]

for steel pipes, as i'm building it right now, you can simply do 8 pure iron ref > 13 foundry (solid steel) > 26 constructors (pipes)

that worked like a charm for me

[zealous tide]

ooh i think i did calculate this one too, lemme get a building count quick

[frosty owl]

You can't get less buildings than bolted as far as reinforced plates go, iirc

[zealous tide]

wait normal what frames, mod or heavy mod?

still use heavy encased frame?

[frosty owl]

The standard frames are a bit slower, but much less steel hungry than the steel ones, which makes the bolted plan need a bit more machines than using bolted frames, but reduces the steel usage greatly

[frosty owl]

Yeah, that's the best one for HMF, period (efficiency wise)

[upbeat tide]

Yes heavy encased is considered the hest for HMF

[zealous tide]

so wait, this one @frosty owl ?

[upbeat tide]

The other that uses rubber is quite good but said rubber adds complexity

[frosty owl]

Using the "steel rods" recipe instead of the standard is another trade though: a bit more coal (steel) for still less machines

[zealous tide]

ahh yeah see this is a lot more machines

vs

[frosty owl]

You get a tad more steel processing (and steel usage) but a decent decrease in the amount of constructors and assblers 😁

And it's still efficient enough for me to use it in my maximized plan

[zealous tide]

bolted

pipes

and about 100mw power difference

this is calculated to just max out 4 manufacturers

[frosty owl]

Aye
Though, the difference in iron usage can be lessened if you use coated or steel coated plates for the iron plates (in both plans)
The main iron difference comes from the extra plates needed for the Bolted recipe after all

[zealous tide]

17 more machines for the bolted combo

[frosty owl]

??

[frosty owl]

Isn't this bolted?

[zealous tide]

first one was bolted

my bad, i see how that confused you

yeah bolted was 114-115 buildings vs pipe gang combo at 97ish for 11.25 frames per minute

[frosty owl]

Oh? Could you share the link for the pipe one?

[zealous tide]

yes uhhhh just let me reconfigure it >.< im dumb and didnt open a new one for the casted

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=4PpSGGH7Qs6UNZ22ewRa

should work hopefully

[frosty owl]

Oh yeah, I just ran some numbers. I didn't value the steeled frames recipe enough, it's great to reduce the number of buildings... but does cost a fair amount of steel in return

[zealous tide]

trading 7 iron smelters for 1 foundry there

iron wire is a necessity though

[frosty owl]

I think if you're willing to use that much steel (with steeled frames), it might be worth going for the bolted recipe instead. Uses a bit more iron, but less steel than the steeled frames one (bolted production on the right)

659 iron and 479 coal for all bolted,
616 iron and 497 coal for steeled

[zealous tide]

Wait what else did you change, I knew I was missing a combo

Can u ss the steps layout

[frosty owl]

This is the full bolted https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=YHgpgWZYToiVjlUVuiGC

Both the RIPs and Modular Frames sharing an ingredient is also a small convenience

[zealous tide]

ohh you got coated iron plates in there though @frosty owl

[upbeat tide]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=4hOkLe0cQEhKyIgxTBqy

This is my 60/min HMF setup

Wow ing quality sucks

[zealous tide]

That seems hella complicated

What does swapping out encase beams for encased pipes do for building count on your setup I wonder

[upbeat tide]

Ooh thats a mistake it should be the alt

[shy finch]

im making one of them right now the belt work is a mess so ive ran it all in a crawl space

[upbeat tide]

For the industrial beams

In reality it uses the alt just forgot to get that right in the calc

[zealous tide]

Yeah I haven't even started on the layout yet. I do like tucking my pipes/belts and running them through a frame foundation underneath. This seems like a very spaghett factory though.

[shy finch]

i never thought of using the frames honestly i just ran it though a 1 wall height space underneath

[upbeat tide]

Just wait til updare 5 where soft colission is a thing

[shy finch]

soft collisions are already there with belt on belt action ... i hate it

[upbeat tide]

I only have an external image of my HMF foundry on hand

Each floor is desicated to a single part of the process, like steel pipes are on one of the lower floors, the back half is all frames and plates

[shy finch]

i am about to close off the modular frame part and start on the steel side of it next

[upbeat tide]

Only thing not in that building is the ingots

[zealous tide]

this is what i did with my fuel gens

[shy finch]

them 90's are sexy

[upbeat tide]

Its best to have feeder pipes above the input tho. But as long as it works

[zealous tide]

yea the fuel comes into this loop from a level above so it has all the headlift it needs

[shy finch]

i only bought the game on the 15th and im already at 162.2 hours ... woops

[zealous tide]

they took some finagling but i really like how they turned out for sure. very tucked and clean

below its just a full loop

[shy finch]

i use the concrete mod as stuff clips through no problem so use that to get my 90's perfect then remove

[zealous tide]

with a loop like this, if you feed the fuel in from both sides, you can have one long mk1 pipe that feeds 600per minute worth of gens. the same thing you can do with water extractors

[upbeat tide]

This was a fun build for me. Self reliant looping recycled plastic setup

4 floors like this each making 1800 plastic or rubber. 3600 total each

[shy finch]

im still not in the oil stage yet im just about to unlock it doing the bs with the ranks ... making products youll never use again so its mainly temp setups

[oblique hollow]

oh you will use those products again lul

in the next elevator step

[upbeat tide]

Yea the above is endgame oil 🙂

[shy finch]

but not worth spending 3 days making a production line for it lol

[earnest glen]

3 days.. I'm slow or thinking too big. Depending on the current "project" completion time is from 1 week to 1 month 😄

[oblique hollow]

2nd to last delivery. 2500 frameworks, a bunch of modular engines and adaptive control unit. its not that big

[shy finch]

thats just for modular frames not the heavy section yet lol

im making 60 per min currently not doing anything while i finish the elevator project

[zealous tide]

hell yeah, looks amazing

[zealous tide]

what is this collision fuckery

[shy finch]

no collisions

just perfect tollerances

[zealous tide]

hmm, you build the top one, remove a foundation, place another foundation at the right spot, build the second one, rinse and repeat?

[shy finch]

no i use the smart mod i need to build my framework to make it look legit

[zealous tide]

ahh gotcha

[earnest glen]

did you use resin rubber to start it or a container? Anyhow here's mine (1800 each type). Actually it took me almost 3 days to fully understand the math behind it #screenshots message

[thorn bane]

i actually build mine in a loop by turning the refineries around
would recommend 🙂

[upbeat tide]

Yes it uses residual rubber only

No didnt use a container, but allowed all the hoppers to pre fill before fully activating

Thats the build by the numbers

The full facility

[earnest glen]

used resin too with some smart splitters. Was a ton of fun to see it starting

[upbeat tide]

Closest - HOR processing
Middle - diluted fuel and residual rubber
Back center - overflow sinks
Back - recycled loop floors

[thorn bane]

its actually so much fun to disconnect the resin and just put in 6 plastic and see it multiply xD

[earnest glen]

i will build there too another similar facility, but only after nuclear

[earnest glen]

indeed. Actually aluminium and recycled plastic/rubber are the most funny thing to build for me

[thorn bane]

ye same

[upbeat tide]

I loved building my aluminum ingot setup.

[earnest glen]

i mean, i'm building a steel factory and is soo annoying. I hated deeply all the pipes at first (load & capacity bugs) but after much time understanding those now when i build without them is like easy mode ehehe

[upbeat tide]

My alu factory is semi closed loop setup and using all the bauxite on the map

Took about four design revisions to get it working as I wanted

[earnest glen]

thanks to @oblique hollow for making me aware of VIP system i'm on a fully closed loop. Actually used that in my TF power plant too to recycle excess TF and in some other situation too

valves with set limits are just too buggy for me

[zealous tide]

idk if i wanna mess with TF, i like the simplicity of just the diluted/packaged and i feel like by the time i really need that extra power i'll be going nuclear

[upbeat tide]

I never got VIP to work quite right for me.

This is the control zone for the external water pipe. These start at 600m3 water lines and are split into 3 mk1 pipes. Each around 200 water, but valved wodn to 180. It fluctuates a bit but works as I want it

[earnest glen]

its.... delicate

[upbeat tide]

Then its added into the solution refineries up front and byproduct water pumped back down

From the front

These are inprogress screenshots but gives the idea

[tropic hawk]

isnt VIP supposed to be verticle?

[upbeat tide]

Thats the full thing

[upbeat tide]

Yea

[earnest glen]

i mean, you have to build it without too many other things. By my tests, if you add a junction after a valve for instance it stop working

[tropic hawk]

Turbofuel isn't complicated.

[tropic hawk]

You just need 2 inputs if you have blenders, and some deccent management

[upbeat tide]

Ingame final setup

And seeing a ton of ingots flowing is satisfying