math-and-meta

[thorn bane]

seems to work alot more reliable than the VIP but it is bigger

[keen patio]

Don't get me wrong, Im glad VIP works for vanilla players... I just wish I could get a 'smart pipeline junction' that would allow me to set priorities or something

[empty glade]

Modded isn't supported anyhow; that's a different server

[keen patio]

Jelutz.. please, use some common sense. We're talking about vanilla piping issues with modded machinery. Its fine.

[wind spade]

the most important thing is to have the waste refineries have priority for solids

[keen patio]

^ very true, and that was hard for me to setup (I recognize it as the 'cause' of the problem for sure)

[empty glade]

The liquid load bug seems to be with machines anyway.

[thorn bane]

can you post a screenshot of your packaging area?
im curious because it was HUGE for me

[thorn bane]

this issue has nothign to do with the load bug

[keen patio]

Its gonna be about half your size, the modded machines are basically 5 in 1, but had to be underclocked due to pipe restrictions (mk2 600m^3).. so they are operating at 1.95 in 1 and ... 2 point something for the scrap side of things.. but let me login to nab one

[thorn bane]

ye default packagers suck xD

[keen patio]

@thorn bane - Note; I use storage teleporter as an FPS saver; it acts as a sort of global merger/splitter for products, in effect a load balancer based on demand. Its drawbacks are that each costs me power (10mw), and it has a latency associated with it which causes lower numbers than max belt speed sometimes, which has to be accounted for.

Higher view

[thorn bane]

ye feeding 1 refinery with 1 packager is kinda insane xD

[keen patio]

its feeding (trying to) at a 600 rate, but the refinery is set to only accept 390

[upbeat tide]

Just get diluted fuel blenders 🙂

[keen patio]

(which makes 468 solution.. which goes into refinery 2.. which makes 780 scrap (belt limit)

huh? @upbeat tide

[upbeat tide]

Oh sorry, looked like a massive diluted packaged fuel setup

[keen patio]

oh yea, I still have those; its on my to-do list to redo my plastic/rubber with the new version from blender.

[thorn bane]

this is what it looks like for me using all default clocks xD

[keen patio]

just about to tear down my north oil fields turbofuel setup as my mapwide nuclear is finished.. just waiting a bit to make sure that my temp uranium waste processing fix is gonna work.

[upbeat tide]

Im currently fighting water issues with my nuclear reactors.

[keen patio]

That looks clean Zyranex!

[thorn bane]

id likee to remind you of

[upbeat tide]

Ah true

[keen patio]

How do nuclear reactors have water issues? I thought that was pretty easy .. 300 per nuke gen.. hook up 3 water extractors to a mk2 pipe and underclock?

[thorn bane]

mk 2 pipes dont actually go up to 600m³/min

[keen patio]

exactly, so only use it for 300m^3

[upbeat tide]

Welxome to decide to OC them issues

[wind spade]

they can, if they are short enough 🤷

[thorn bane]

well thats what he said "yes theydo as long as very simple"
yet here we are 🙂

[upbeat tide]

its a very simple setup

each has two pumps connected to one pipe per reactor

[wind spade]

I've had people telling me that they got 600m3 out of the pipe 🤷

and you shouldn't need pumps if it's level

[keen patio]

Wait, Verios, are you overclocking the water extractors to get 300 out of 2?

[thorn bane]

i think the single junction merging 300 and 300 is enough to cause problems

[upbeat tide]

se , yes

[thorn bane]

if its a 600 line from a oil extractor maybe

[keen patio]

Im missing something here.. each reactor should only want 300.. not 600.. so why is there mention of 600 in a pipe? Shouldn't it be 300 if its 1 pipe per reactor?

[upbeat tide]

250% OC

aks 600 water, 0.4 rods, and 5000MW

[keen patio]

oh are you overclocking the nuclear reactors too!?

[wind spade]

250% OC plants need 600.00003 m3 / min water 🤔

[thorn bane]

but i dont think thats the issue
precision loss seems way higher than .1

[wind spade]

actually ingame it's 600000.03 water

float variables should be precise enough for two decimal places

[thorn bane]

how much water does a reactor take per tick?

its in spaces of 10 right?

[upbeat tide]

looks to be about 10

[wind spade]

6e5/60/[ups]

[thorn bane]

the 0.00003 would cause a tick loss every 5000 hours so i dont think thats the problem

[upbeat tide]

yea its too fast for that

[wind spade]

again, it's 0.03

ingame fluids are calculated in liters, not m3

[thorn bane]

no beecause the reactor takes 10m³ or 10000 of fluid

so its 10000/0.03

[wind spade]

tick isn't 1 per second though, is it?

tick is 60 per second or similar

[upbeat tide]

whats bothering me is that internal tanks are never full. But at least so far no shutdowns

[thorn bane]

no i dont mean game tick
say the reactor starts at 0 water it will wait until it has 10
then it would take 5000hours of running at 100% until its out of water

[upbeat tide]

soo could be just me being too cautious

[wind spade]

that's only true if you start at 100% of water. If you start with 0% of water, it's not true

[thorn bane]

no i said you start at 0 water

then the reactor waits 1s until it has 10 water

actually it might be 20 water if you oc them

[wind spade]

and stops because doesn't have enough water after it uses the 10

[thorn bane]

oh ye youre right it so after that its at 19.999...

and will run for the next 5000hours

ok sems like OC the plant makes it take the water faster not take more so its still 10

[upbeat tide]

im gonna do a long term test see if anything fails

few hours

so here is what makes no sense @thorn bane some of them are good, close to the top each time. Others fill to 20m3 before tick or lower

should be no variance which isnt making alot of sense

[thorn bane]

thats probably just depended if they got the rods first or the water
because once they are running the water level shouldnt change

[upbeat tide]

nah rods is no issue. im techniclly over supplying currently. Everything is full

im watching one right now hit no water warning every other 4th tick

[faint ember]

I'm sorry, could someone explain what's wrong with 600m3 pipes?

[upbeat tide]

think I found a possible root cause

seems the water is not exactly flowing out properly

[keen patio]

TLDR: if you use a manifold for pipes (1 pipe going down, splitting into machines, with no loop back to start), there is a flow rate issue where you only get ~595... So dont max out your pipes.

2nd bug; all machines lose 5m^3 on loading the game.

[faint ember]

So you can correct that by having a manifold output back into the main pipeline upstream of the manifold?

[keen patio]

if I understand you correctly, yes.. basically the end of the manifold loops a pipe back to the start, and connects in.

[thorn bane]

i dont think its only for manifolds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhQsMU7iR3I

[faint ember]

Aha. Interesting.

[keen patio]

Note; I am regurgitating info I have read myself. Seek your own info.

ooo, gonna watch that.

[faint ember]

Nice trick. I didn't even know it was a problem.

[thorn bane]

from my understanding its just rounding errors when you go up to 600

[bleak coral]

pipes also suffer from sub-60 fps floating point errors same as belts, but from testing junctions also hurt flowrate on mk2 pipes (the why is speculation on our part)

[upbeat tide]

Well im doing a experiment. Take two mk1 pipws and merge at last second

eh F it. just gonna raze it all and do 100%

instead of OC

[thorn bane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiAvo3uDBCM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3EjiEP-6iU
from different q&a streams but ye they all say the same its because of precision errors with floats

[keen patio]

I feels you so much on this; I basically had to raze and redo aluminum processing (map wide bauxite) 5 times before getting it to work right. ((Now obviously the problems were caused by my production setups and possibly by being modded.. but I mean to say that.. yea. raze and restart.. oof.. it sucks.. ))

[thorn bane]

could just do 240% OC and build some more but still feed 600 then you dont need to rebuild

[upbeat tide]

Issue is uranium waste. Plan is to pretty much maxamize plutonium rods

Either way plan already in the head

[upbeat tide]

This is how I balance my aluminum setups

And @oblique hollow created this earlier today

[thorn bane]

hm i dont realy like merging the alumina solution

[upbeat tide]

the deed is done

[keen patio]

Insert "MASH NO" Meme

[upbeat tide]

@thorn bane

ctually tried something. Reversed razing for now

CHANGING THIS SETUP

TO THIS

solves the problems it seems

[thorn bane]

hm looks like it should be exactly the same

[upbeat tide]

yea I know but another friend of mine who plays this too much thought of it

[faint ember]

The heck is the difference?

[upbeat tide]

doesn't matter
trust me
add a pump, it will magic back to health
and/or a 1-way valve
that forces it to go up and stay up
Ezio Sotken — Today at 5:20 PM
tried valves
Klepdar — Today at 5:20 PM
but the pump should fix it
one of your things is turning off slightly because it's backflowing ever so slightly
and then it never keeps up
(cuz it eats max water)
Ezio Sotken — Today at 5:21 PM
yea backflow is a issue too
Klepdar — Today at 5:21 PM
that lip where it goes up is the backflow problem
adding a pump before it should solve that problem

Ezio is me, my non-server specific Discord name

[faint ember]

Gosh darn fluids.

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, the shape of pipes can do wonky stuff. Never be surprised.

[frosty owl]

Even if you managed to deliver 600/min to the generators, they would still eventually reach the point where they run dry everytime you load the game due to the load bug though...
(After at least 60 loads if you start with extractors and generator full of water)

If you go for 300/min instead, you can top off the loss with a VIP or overproduce to avoid it

[upbeat tide]

Perhaps. Currently testing that after one reload

[thorn bane]

hm 50m³ is 5 seconds for 600 pipes
thats minus 5000MW for 5s so 416 MWH
so you could just build 4 power storages per reactor and always have them topped
but yeah that doesnt sound safe xD

[upbeat tide]

Yea prob a full rework is needed even with the fixing

[frosty owl]

Max-flow + load bugs, you really headed straight into the crossfire

[oblique hollow]

What in the name of Snutt's Shiny Head is that

[stark bronze]

belt overflow but with pipes

[oblique hollow]

Looks more like off-brand priority input pipe

[dark summit]

Could you have an extra few extractors with buffers on each row to top up the reactors as the extractors slowly dip?

[thorn bane]

hm that could maybe help with the extractors but i think theres a hidden buffer on the reactor as well so you still have at least 5s downtime

[upbeat tide]

slow progress on my non-fissle setup. This is only 1/2 the total setup though

[wind spade]

A bit confused how did you get 416 MWH

[thorn bane]

ooooooooooh youre right thats per minute
so its 5000MW*(5/60m)=416MWm/60 = ~7MWH
so 0.07 power storages damn
god i hate physics

[wind spade]

much better to just use MJ 😛

or rather easier 🙂

[wind spade]

looking at this, I'm still not sure you got it right...

[dark summit]

Yeah, wouldn’t it be in 5 seconds a 1/20 * 5000, which would be 250MWm right?

[wind spade]

no

[wind spade]

ah right. I just got confused with the first part of your equation
5000MW*(5/60m)=416MWm/60 is wrong 🤷

the /60 is extra there

but the result is correct

[thorn bane]

ye youre right
hate units

[young rover]

Btw some people are not aware that the valve cancel any pump uplift after it. So if you place a valve and the pipe goes up after that even there is a pump right before the valve, it’s like there was no pump. Make sure the pump is after the valve 🙂

[wind spade]

valves shouldn't really cancel headlift

even wiki says it doesn't block it

[young rover]

I tried and it does block it

[wind spade]

are you 100% sure? isn't it just the valve blocking throughput?

[young rover]

Valve is unrestricted fully open 600

When I place one after the pump, the fluid is stoped and doesn’t go up anymore

Try yourself to check it out. I might have been under a lot of wine during that check

[wind spade]

was the pump connected to power?

[young rover]

Yes

[wind spade]

I can't check myself, I don't have the game installed 😄

[young rover]

I am sitting in the aircraft right now I will check once I land in anchorage

[young rover]

Damn what happened ?🤣

[wind spade]

haven't played it since May 2019

[young rover]

Why not ?

[wind spade]

not enough time, when I have free time I work on my tools 🤷

[thorn bane]

hm works for me

[young rover]

Strange. I will have a look again at this.

Is the fluid loss at game loading still a thing ? That prevented me to use closed loop before

[thorn bane]

yes

[wind spade]

yes

[oblique hollow]

It doesnt. The pump just gets confused and cant display any headlift afterwards

It still applies the full 22 m / 55 m though

[upbeat tide]

@oblique hollow I did solve my water problem with my nuclear reactors but the plague of the loading bug is still a concern. Still need to test “after x number of reloads it fails” etc

[oblique hollow]

Only real solution for nuclear is to not use 250% overclocking

[upbeat tide]

Yea im about to completely redo it for that

But the water supply issue was solved by moving the valve before the vertical pipe segment instead of where it was at the top just after

@oblique hollow just the small change of moving the valve from above the pipe vertical section to on that section or just before solved the normal flow issue. 🙂 darn bugs tho

[oblique hollow]

Hmm

How about no valve

[upbeat tide]

No valve caused deminishing water in normal time

[oblique hollow]

It doesnt really serve a purpose here though.
And i dont really believe that valves can fix flow issues?

[upbeat tide]

I think it was a backflow issue more than flow

Either way the loading bug is a design breaker

At least the setup was not fully built yet

[iron dune]

Ye it can back flow to extractors if no valve causing weird things to happen xD kinda annoying but actually makes sense

[oblique hollow]

Actually doesnt make sense.... The extractor pressure isnt THAT weak

[young rover]

Ah thanks that explains it all

[mossy radish]

Shouldn’t 1.5 miner mk2s be able to fuel 7 coal burners

I thought that math worked

[fierce ruin]

Shouldn't that entirely depend on the purity of the nodes you're putting said miners on?

[mossy radish]

2 pures I forgot about that

[empty glade]

Isn't that 480 coal/min?

Oh, 1.5... 360

24 coal generators

[mossy radish]

I perfectly fuels the firs 4

[empty glade]

using MK1 belt?

[mossy radish]

But the last 3 keeps switching on keep switching on and off

[mossy radish]

Mk3

[oblique hollow]

Check the water

[empty glade]

MK3 won't hold all that coal either... you'll probably need a second belt or MK4 for more than 18 coal generators, but it should run 7 just fine. Yes, check water.

[mossy radish]

I have four water pumps and one I’d like 200% percent over

[oblique hollow]

8 generators need 120 coal / min

[oblique hollow]

You better have more than just one pipe connecting them all

[mossy radish]

Oh

[empty glade]

More than 1 MK1 pipe for 7

[mossy radish]

Yeah

[oblique hollow]

Mk 1 pipe limit is 300 m3/min

[empty glade]

1 MK1 pipe per 6 coal generators

[mossy radish]

But when I look at the belt the last 3 are not getting the coal needed

How many water pumps per pipe is it

[empty glade]

Once I had a little piece of MK1 belt that was slowing down my coal flow... same thing happen with you somewhere?

2.5 water ext per MK1 pipe

[oblique hollow]

2,5.
One extractor does 120/min

[mossy radish]

Uh I will check my second mk2 use a mk1 belt to get to my base

[mossy radish]

2-5 or 2.5

[oblique hollow]

2.5

[empty glade]

To get the 2.5 sometimes I make 2 pipes connected together with a manifold at the extractors

[oblique hollow]

2.5 x 120 = 300

[mossy radish]

Ok you put a , instead of a .

[empty glade]

He must be european

[oblique hollow]

Yes not everyone uses dot for decimals

[mossy radish]

Oh

[thorn bane]

6 coal gens gang unite!!!!

[mossy radish]

Wrong chat? #screenshots

[oblique hollow]

That pump is SOOOO not needed

[thorn bane]

just saying if you do groups of 6 you never have problems with pipes

[mossy radish]

So the math would be 6 coal gens per mk1 pipe right?

[oblique hollow]

The general rule is to use 3 extractors, 2 pipes and 8 generators

That has the best numbers

Needs one full mk 2 of coal

And 360 water /min

[empty glade]

Just do groups of 24 🙂

[mossy radish]

I think I didn’t do the bet right

[muted crypt]

still surprised this diagram needs made, ngl

[fierce ruin]

Made? No.
Edited to satisfy OCD requirements? VERY YES.
😛

[empty glade]

There is also the fact that it's asymmetrical to begin... that should mean constant tweaking due to OCD.

[fierce ruin]

asymmetry is fine, it's all the lines being different lengths that bothers me.

[empty glade]

Ah, like the longer one between #2 and #3

[fierce ruin]

Yes. 😬

[muted crypt]

oh no

I see it and now I can't unsee it

[oblique hollow]

I insterted that one to upset all the monks

Its the only one thats longer

[empty glade]

phrasing

[muted crypt]

pain

[fierce ruin]

<INSERT BROOKLYN 9-9 "PAAAAAIIIINNNN" GIF THAT I AM NOT ALLOWED TO POST>

[faint ember]

Every single picture in this channel that looks like someone has already done the math is saved in my phone.

Any math. Aluminum math, uranium math, fuckin' iron plate math

[fierce ruin]

Iron plate math? TF?

[wind spade]

steel coated plates are hard to calculate 🤷

[faint ember]

On that, it seems to me that all-steel recipes (such that no products use actual iron ingots) are actually possible

[fringe pawn]

Yeah, with pure iron plate and solid steel ingot, steel coated plate gets nuts.

[fierce ruin]

Fair. Usually the over-abundance of iron means you don't have to go to alt recipes of iron plates in my experience, but fair.

[faint ember]

Is that sustainable throughout the tiers, and is it worthwhile?

[thorn bane]

oh speaking of is there a way to do stiched iron plates with iron wire and have whole numbers?

[wind spade]

iirc it's possible, but not really needed 🤷

[empty glade]

Except solid steel ingot?

[faint ember]

Yeah, except that.

Is that a waste of coal/steel better used elsewhere?

[fringe pawn]

Until you build the world's craziest screw factory and run out of coal, oil, and sulfur, forcing you to do some cast screws with iron alloy ingot. 😛

[frosty owl]

As far as I'm concerned, steel recipes are just a way to save on time/machines by using more coal or whatever you prefer tlusing to make steel ^^

[fierce ruin]

MAX SCREWS BUILD LET'S GOOOOOOOOOO

[faint ember]

Ahh. So keep steel for steel and use other iron nodes for iron recipes.

[frosty owl]

If you want to be resource efficient, yes

[empty glade]

Stop burning it for power

[fierce ruin]

Given how limited coal is in a global sense, yes, it is better to save it for things it is actually needed for.

[thorn bane]

these things depend a lot on what your goals are

[empty glade]

And use both Iron Alloy and Copper Alloy to get bonuses from both

[frosty owl]

I'm still (probably) gonna use steel screws and bolted recipes just because of the save on machines (and FPS) :P

[wind spade]

got it (apart from ingots) https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=Ar47WEBbYUGNS7xTOBTz

[fierce ruin]

Pure copper is better than copper alloy.

[empty glade]

Oh yeah, I forgot

[faint ember]

Agree there, but refineries ugh

[fierce ruin]

Iron alloy can beat pure iron in the right context.
But copper alloy never beats pure copper.

[faint ember]

Steamed copper hams

[fringe pawn]

I used both copper alloy and pure copper. The low machine count of alloy is nice if you're not going to squeeze every resource of the planet.

[frosty owl]

Lucky you I didn't put my math for Heavy Sushi Frames in a picture so it didn't pollute your collection

[thorn bane]

so i really need to make a picture for the merger that sounds awesome

[frosty owl]

A picture that sounds awesome?

Well, first you should clean up the setup a bit? 😆

[fierce ruin]

PiCtUrEs DoN't HaVe SoUnD

[tawny swan]

time to finally setup a plastic factory, does anyone know a better setup than this one? seems pretty good from 300/m oil -> 900 plastic or rubber

[thorn bane]

i like

[tawny swan]

so that does plastic and rubber at the same time

[thorn bane]

yes

[tawny swan]

hmm...

so the 1200 fuel is just distributed wherever needed in the line correct?

[thorn bane]

yes

[tawny swan]

hmm.... think im gunna go with that since i need both plastic/rubber and i kinda dont wana make 2 of the same factory lol

[frosty owl]

I think it's the most convenient and anesthetic way to make rubber/plastic ^^
Aesthetic since it's easier to make simmetric

[tawny swan]

@thorn baneis it just the normal 60:40 fuel recipe initially? and then make residual rubber?

[thorn bane]

no this is heavy oil residue and diluted fuel

[tawny swan]

ahh that setup is easier to follow thanks

alright, time to build. lol

so do you just flip the recipies from recycled rubber/plastic if you need more plastic than rubber?

[thorn bane]

no cant really do that because residual rubber is more efficient than residual plastic

[tawny swan]

gotcha

[thorn bane]

you can change the number of recycled rubbere/plastic but you probably get weird numbers

[tawny swan]

ok, i can keep it how it is, just trying to create my battery factory and get things rolling for drone usage

im gunna use a drone, to transport batteries, to more drones lol...

[empty glade]

Recycled rubber/plastic feedback loop fed by fuel

Also includes turbo fuel

[faint ember]

That's what I like to see

800 empty canisters per minute to start? How much plastic are you gonna use?

That seems less efficient than a straight up poly resin setup, with fuel as a lesser byproduct.

[empty glade]

The design is a decent starting point to show the concept though

[faint ember]

Ahhh

[bleak coral]

The packaged diluted fuel is a self-contained loop, it just needs containers to start, but you don't feed new ones once there's enough in a loop

[empty glade]

You can get rid of the containers if you can use the diluted fuel blender recipe

[faint ember]

Ahhh, good point on the loop

That's a boatload of turbo fuel too

I'll have to pipe it to an entirely different side of the world.

[empty glade]

This without the turbo fuel

But the package the HOR instead of water

But it needs the residual rubber to feed into recycled plastic and output, not direct to output as it shows here

[faint ember]

Is it worth OC-ing fuel generators to save on space?

[oblique hollow]

That setup is a bit outdated it seems. Packaged HOR and water is no longer the right way

[oblique hollow]

No because you get bogus numbers. The bottom window shows false values.
If you want double power you need 246.23% or something

[tawny swan]

phew... so many refineries to make plastic/rubber. lol

[muted crypt]

ah yes, 33 + 177 = 200

[tawny swan]

duh...

[tawny swan]

just spent 15 mins trying to figure out where the hell i get the 600 plastic from for the recycled rubber... till i noticed the tiny little arrow coming from the recycled plastic that merges with the other arrow lol

do you have to jump start the system with rubber/plastic at all? seems like you would have to.

[bleak coral]

no, the residual rubber does that, you can if you want it to start faster

[tawny swan]

but residual rubber dosnt connect to anything except the final product?

[bleak coral]

oh right, the calculators tend to do that, you can use it as seeder instead though and just take more from recycled

[tawny swan]

yeah, ill just jumpstart it with like 500 rubber or plastic. dosnt matter to much

[marble fog]

I’m having trouble with my water extractors and coal gens. I’ve done a few setups like 8 /3 and 6/2 (with one overclocked) but I’m still finding the end coal gens run out of water. I think I know why. I prime everything up so everything is full even the water extractor. If I save the game and load it, I lose about 40 m3 in my extractor. That happens every time I load a game and it soon wipes out my extractors reserve. Should this be happening?

[thorn bane]

use the screeenshot i used earlier so you dont have to do that

[tawny swan]

but im almost done O.o.... ill just jumpstart it lol...

[bleak coral]

how are you setting up your pipes? mk1 pipes can only carry 300m^3/min
also how are you overclocking it, clock speeds aren't linear for generators, i.e. 250% clock speed is about 202% operation rate

[thorn bane]

the whole idea of that setup was that its not a loop but in stages xD

[tawny swan]

well......... to late xD

[marble fog]

Just 3 pipes coming off each extractor, going into one long pipe that divides into the gens.

[bleak coral]

do you have a picture?

[faint ember]

So the most efficient way to use oil for plastic, essentially, is the heavy residue alt recipe, right?

How efficient is the polymer resin version?

[bleak coral]

it's not, it's just there to process resin as a byproduct

or do you mean the polymer resin alt?

[faint ember]

Yeah

The alt by which you can make plastic/rubber

[bleak coral]

the alt itself is good, there's just not much you want to do with resin

it's good for making fabric for filters, but you don't need that much of it

[faint ember]

But what about using it as a precursor for the main plastic/rubber production?

[bleak coral]

maybe, polymer resin alt -> residual plastic/rubber might not be bad if you don't want to do the whole recycled setup, it's just not often done

I'd have to check though

you should pull up a calculator and try different combinations if you're curious about it

[tawny swan]

the jumpstart was super simple, and its working great now, ty for the setup 😄

got lazy and just sinking the resin for now, 600/m rubber/plastic is fine for now

pretty long factory, but thats fine, easy merg/splitter between the two setups, just gotta do a 2nd splitter into a drone port to transport later

[tawny swan]

so as far as drones, whats the optimal distance? or i guess. is it good to use 2-4 drones on a single port when going from one side of the map to the other?

nvm, just got my answer, doing 277/m transport, really only need 2

[frosty owl]

@oblique hollow Even without pumps before the junction this is fine, right~?
#screenshots message

[mossy radish]

The math is not working out I don’t have enough coal per plant even though I am following the charts to a t

[muted crypt]

for every 120 coal, you need to bring in 360 water (three water extractors at 100% clock) and combine the two to support eight coal generators

[mossy radish]

Bro I am over doing that and still tripping on occasion

[muted crypt]

How much coal do you have available to you that you're willing to invest into power, rather than steel?

Oh, I may know the issue

Do you have all three water extractors feeding water into one end of a main pipe?

i.e. this? This is arguably the shittiest paint diagram I've ever made

[lean horizon]

Better than my autoCAD drafting lol

[sand epoch]

depends on the distance. highest travel time i've seen thus far is 7m (ish) round trip.. so with your 277/m that's nearly 2k you need to move, assuming 100 stack size that means 3 ports on each end.. obv faster trips could be done with fewer :/

[sand epoch]

that's scary then..

[muted crypt]

Anyway... do not do what's in the screenshot there

it just gets worse and worse.... but do this instead - feed two extractors into one end, and the third extractor into the other end

[lean horizon]

Unrelated topic but I'm currently learning autoCAD, all of my drafting is in Vectorworks Spotlight

[mossy radish]

1.5 mk2s on mk 3 belts for 6 100 cloak plants, 3 100% cloak pumps and 1 200% cloak this doesn’t make any sense

[lean horizon]

But yeah wrap around

Unless you have MK2 pipes

[mossy radish]

Mk1 pipes

[muted crypt]

1.5 mk2 miners?

[lean horizon]

f

[muted crypt]

What node richness?

That will affect things

[mossy radish]

I halfed the out out of one for dat real steel

[muted crypt]

bump

I'm just trying to figure out how much coal you're getting

[mossy radish]

I should have a surplus but I don’t have enough

[muted crypt]

please answer the question so I can help you

[lean horizon]

Well lets start with, are you choked out on water, coal, or both?

[mossy radish]

No coal

[lean horizon]

From there, how much coal are you bringing in

[muted crypt]

they did mention 3 100% clock pumps

[lean horizon]

from the miners and how many separate feeds

[lean horizon]

Yes but as we said, they could have screwed the piping up so they could still technically eb choked on water too

[muted crypt]

fair

I'd honestly ask to hop into your save if I wasn't at work right now

[mossy radish]

How much coal does a mk2 make

[muted crypt]

it depends on the node purity

[empty glade]

Overclock at 150%

[muted crypt]

which is why I asked for that

[mossy radish]

2 pures

[muted crypt]

I was asking them to clarify

[mossy radish]

I believe at the moment

[muted crypt]

so you should be getting way over the amount of coal needed then

[mossy radish]

I know it don’t make no sense

[muted crypt]

mk2 miner is 120 base, pure node puts it at 240... 1.5x is 360, which is more than your belt can even hold

[mossy radish]

But I will double check purity

[muted crypt]

Can you take a few screenshots of your setup, ideally clear ones that we can follow along things?

[mossy radish]

I am not on the save atm

[lean horizon]

Tok, if you want, you can send me your save and i can hop in on my own

[empty glade]

Ok, tokarev has the question

[muted crypt]

^

[mossy radish]

Ok gimme a sec to hop in thx for the help

[empty glade]

Can you describe where?

[mossy radish]

When what?

[empty glade]

Where is your mine? The map is always the same and some here know it well enough to tell you what it is.

[mossy radish]

Even mk3 belts

[muted crypt]

okay something must be off that we haven't seen yet. I should be home from work in... 90 minutes? Would you be comfortable with me hopping on your save with you and giving it a look?

[mossy radish]

I have somin to do atm I will be back at 7:30 to my knowledge sorry

[muted crypt]

no worries! What time is it for you right now?

[mossy radish]

5:28 I am in cst

[muted crypt]

okay, sounds good then. DM me when you're back and ready to go

[mossy radish]

Ok

Will do

Thx man also I am going through a re-model atm so it will look like trash

[muted crypt]

no worries lol

[dark summit]

mk3 carry 270 a minute you would need mk4 belts which carry 480

[mossy radish]

I have a note book trying to do math how much water can be held per mk1 pipe

[dark summit]

They have a max flow rate of 300m3

[mossy radish]

I should be able to power 24 coal plants when I get mk4 belts

[dark summit]

Although once you get mk4 belts you can start doing fuel power

[upbeat tide]

You dont really need belts for fuel tho except for the byproducts

[fierce ruin]

That would mean you do need belts. 😄

[upbeat tide]

Well, its not the focus. Can get away with mk2’s id think

[fierce ruin]

You can do it with mk 1's if you're talking per machine.
It's only going to require higher belts depending on how many machines you're hooking into the system.

[dark summit]

Once you get mk4 you can do fuel power because they are unlocked at the same time that is what I meant,

[upbeat tide]

ooh ok,

[jovial walrus]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/production-planner Is a useful resource to calculate that

[muted crypt]

@lean horizon and @empty glade, since you two also took interest in @mossy radish's case, I will let you know that the problem was fixed a few hours ago. Evidently there was a very small mk1 belt hidden on the end of a mk3 belt, almost entirely within the hitbox of a splitter (such that the array went mk3 belt -> mk1 belt -> splitter, all actually connected).... and that was causing the throughput issue for the generators.

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're asking, so I will try to rephrase it for myself: you want to find how to properly establish matching input rates for a given desired output, yes?

Both input rates would change proportionally. If you set an assembler to 85%, you'd only need 85% of input 1 and 85% of input 2 to result in 85% of the desired output.

It's ratios - that's all it is. And https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production is a much simpler way of looking at these ratios.

Example 1, with a constructor

Example 2, with smelter, constructor AND assembler

Does that answer your question? Or am I still misunderstanding?

Correct

Or it could be two running at 140%

or one at 250% and one at 30%

so long as it totals up properly, it works

Of course!

The link that was shared by @jovial walrus works as well, but I personally prefer that site for its interactive map, and this site I shared for the calculating purposes.

[jovial walrus]

Indeed, I have added the one you linked to my bookmarks for future builds

[muted crypt]

Both are linked in the pins of this channel if you ever lose track of them

[bleak coral]

SCIM could be useful for early game (T1/2/3) builds if you struggle with how to setup logistics, if you have that down though tools is more versatile

[muted crypt]

^

[empty glade]

I had that before

[warm sphinx]

guys i want to make reinforced iron plates, but i have that one and the stitched one, i also have cast scews and iron wires, what would be advised to use?

[thorn bane]

stiched + iron wire is really good

[warm sphinx]

i did some math i want to know, why is the other one with cast screws a bit worse?

[thorn bane]

it just uses more iron

[warm sphinx]

ah ok thx

[frosty pawn]

iron plates are slow in early game 😦
i mean like really really early game. like before tier 1.

[fierce ruin]

By slow you mean "how fast can you build them by hand"? 😏

[mossy radish]

Yep still working atm thanks man

[muted crypt]

No problem 😄

[lean horizon]

The mk1 belt issue is what happened to me too, one of my connectors got missed in the upgrade and borked my whole coal plant for a while

[frosty owl]

@oblique hollow Missed an "at"? ^^

[oblique hollow]

uh what am i supposed to see there

you could just use a single pump on the red pipe and it would work

as long as the pump is before the 2 junctions

[frosty owl]

So I'd still need to have a pump before the junction? :/

[oblique hollow]

that wall is high so yes, pump needed

the other 2 can be removed

[frosty owl]

Wouldn't the extractor's pressure suffice?

[oblique hollow]

how high is that wall?
your screenshot is bad at showing that

[frosty owl]

Much high, mk2 needed

[oblique hollow]

well then yes, one mk 2 needed

have you forgotten that extractors only do 10 m?

[frosty owl]

But wouldn't make a difference compared to how it is now, would it?

[fierce ruin]

You guys paint way more than I think I ever will.

[oblique hollow]

you save 8 mw

[frosty owl]

Yeah, that's why I put the 2 pumps there: I wanted to have all the plumbing (VIP junctions and what not) without pumps (in the 10m range) and pump everything right after. 1 pump per pipe so I can cut off flow for each pipe easily

Red would be the water for bug-refill

[oblique hollow]

well. leave the pumps then

for vip, it should suffice how it is right now

[frosty owl]

What I wasn't sure about was wether not having pumps before the VIP had any issues or the extractors' headlift was fine for it

[oblique hollow]

it should ™️ work

[frosty owl]

Naturally, I'll test quickly before turning it all on xD

[frosty owl]

If you don't paint your pipes, you're not making good use of the planet's flowers

[upbeat tide]

If you dont paint your pipes, you easily forget what they are for 🙂

Like this is my WIP non fissle setup

[frosty owl]

I don't paint by fluid only, sometimes I paint by use. Eg: I usually make "overflow pipes" and similar red

[oblique hollow]

i kinda torn between having all my belts and pipes hidden underneath or just havign it all visible above

but for proper factories, the spaghett has to be exposed

[upbeat tide]

In this case its the belts hidden

[frosty owl]

I prefer leaving just the beltwork above as I don't like much to have the piping above the ground (makes it harder to have the belt go wherever imo)
And pipes are definetly better than belts at going in and out of crawling spaces and similars

[thorn pollen]

is that you

[thorn pollen]

thats why we need signs matey

[oblique hollow]

no. its vencam's sushi

[thorn pollen]

oh sorry i was wondering how he did the walkways

[frosty owl]

You can try asking ^^
What's puzzling about them?

[thorn pollen]

sorry i like your walkway idea but im wondering how you did it because of hard clearance

[frosty owl]

I did help myself with an object moving mod since I couldn't be bothered, but if you're very careful at placing the extractors you can fit them in the space between walkways like that (they're 5 walkways wide)

Without encroaching clearance, that is

[thorn pollen]

oh ok thanks

[upbeat tide]

I have done some decoration since that screenshot, like I want to add walkways, etc to my central trench and what not

Also im designing this to deal with pipe issues. Like the sulfuric acid pipe will only have 240m3 fluid in it. Each nitrogen pipe will only have 300 in it too

[frosty owl]

If you want to have the Non-fissile blenders run at 100% (assuming you're getting 100% of your waste output), you should have a slight overproduction of both acids to account for the load loss

[upbeat tide]

Yea thats the plan too. Like it calls for 4032 nitrogen but im gonna pump in 4050

Ironiclly exactly what I need from two seperate nitrogen wells

[frosty owl]

I don't mean just the nitrogen and sulfur, I mean the acid productionin its entirety (eg: provide 5m more of sulfuric acid every 10 Non-fissile blenders)

[warm sphinx]

guys, how would a setup for refineries look like? the output and input, and having room for expansion

[frosty owl]

The most basic is a row of refineries. Inputs and outputs need to be on 2 levels for easy expansion

[warm sphinx]

my bad

input both ore and water

[muted crypt]

Was also gonna ask what you were making, because that question is very vague

[warm sphinx]

a general setup for wet concrete, pure iron and pure copper for later on

[fierce ruin]

I always have a conveyor lift attached to my refineries and the pipes are the lowest level.

[muted crypt]

I put pipes at ground level and use conveyor lifts to bring solid resources over top of them

I don't do that for every setup, but.. usually I do that.

[fierce ruin]

LITERALLY JUST SAID THAT 😡

😂

[warm sphinx]

lol

[muted crypt]

but yeah, do that^

[frosty owl]

You all just rephrase my "inputs and outputs need to be on 2 levels" anyway

[fierce ruin]

You need to get on my levels

[oblique hollow]

i always put everything level and just clip

[muted crypt]

well yes, but actually yes

[fierce ruin]

There is a special circle of hell for you...

1360 HOR / minute. Check. Then -> ? -> maxxxx turbo fuel.

[fierce ruin]

Use the Tool.

Which one?

[earnest glen]

there are plenty of good setups, i think only complexity of construction and personal preference are the only things that matter

[oblique hollow]

greeny's calculator

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production

[fierce ruin]

I might be super dumb, but I don't seem to find all the recipes there.

[muted crypt]

if you wanna just do the math yourself and don't wanna pull up a page, here's the 3600 turbofuel factory I made and then @oblique hollow had to fix like five times

[fierce ruin]

Like diluted fuel or blend turbo fuel.

[earnest glen]

you have to select them

[wind spade]

are you using U4 version, or U3?

[oblique hollow]

its in a seperate tab

[fierce ruin]

Oh

[oblique hollow]

the recipes tab. also yes, make sure you are on the u4 version

[fierce ruin]

Yeah, I didn't notice that version dropdown.

[oblique hollow]

select turbo blend fuel, enter 1360 HOR on the "Items" Tab as Input and bom

[upbeat tide]

Adding a bit more sulfuric acid isnt hard either. I need around 1100 and I could supply between 1200 and 1500 for this

Using two normal nodes but also have a impure I can use if I want

[frosty owl]

Yeah, the ores aren't the hard part. It's the excess acid that's a pain to make (also inefficient, technically)

[upbeat tide]

Yea already had a breakdown plan

4.8 machines per 16 non fissle.

Each 600 sulfur would do 4.8/4.8/2.4

But that could be changed a bit to produce slightly more per set

[fierce ruin]

Turbo Towers uses like 1100 sulfur/min 😭

[upbeat tide]

Depends on your turbo motor recipe tho

[fierce ruin]

I'm talking turboFUEL

[upbeat tide]

Oh

Use turbo blend fuel if you canyes it uses alot of sulfur but turbo blend fuel uses alot less than the other TF options too

[fierce ruin]

I did.

[muted crypt]

once again bringing up this simple diagram with flat ratios across the board

[fierce ruin]

It was a T8 project.
I converted ALL oil in the oil islands into turbofuel.

[frosty owl]

Turbofuel as a T8 project...

[earnest glen]

shhh

[fierce ruin]

Game doesn't truly start until you have mk3 miners and mk5 belts

Everything before that is the prologue

[earnest glen]

honestly i did the same. Put down a good ton of fuel gens to allow me automate last things to focus on nuclear later

[upbeat tide]

Im ising 1200 sulfur for my own TF plant too

[earnest glen]

well, that's just math for 1800 oil ehhe

[fierce ruin]

I did the math and even with the 504 fuel generators I would STILL need to get nuclear eventually.

[frosty owl]

Just start from nuclear

[Sarcasm disclaimer]

[earnest glen]

you saw my save, i couldn't right away 🤷

[fierce ruin]

#BiomassUntilNuclearChallenge

[frosty owl]

Sure, then you'll be the next one to leave the server screaming "I hate biomass, @ ben your game sucks! >.<"

Every reference to actual words is completely coincidental...

[muted crypt]

no

[fierce ruin]

I don't hate biomass.
I hate that liquid bf is useless.

[muted crypt]

how can the factory grow if you're constantly investing all of your time into powering it

[frosty owl]

I still wonder why some people seem to think this is ben's game

[upbeat tide]

My current sulfur usage

1200 > TF
2400 > encased uranium cells
1200 > non fissle

[earnest glen]

mh... i have to start planning as i'm going to use a pure and a normal one for batteries

basically the two in the swamp

[fierce ruin]

<INSERT SHREK "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" GIF I AM NOT ALLOWED TO POST>

[wind spade]

ummmm... gifs are postable by anyone, aren't they?

[fierce ruin]

When I first tried it always converted them straight to links.

[wind spade]

that may have been in #satisfactory where embeds/images are disabled 🤷‍♂️

[fierce ruin]

https://tenor.com/view/shrek-what-are-you-doing-in-my-swamp-swamp-gif-22162082

POGGERS

[earnest glen]

ehm... batteries and supahcomputah

in a far future at my pace 😄

[oblique hollow]

me about to squeeze every possible product out of oil:

[earnest glen]

don't tell me... i'm working on lake forest now, something like 200 machines between ref, blend and extractors just for 1200 oil

[frosty owl]

Gets banned for punning

[fierce ruin]

Seriously, I may change my name to "| Pun Specialist"

[wind spade]

or maybe remove all the | Something so that they don't clutter chat

[oblique hollow]

its not clutter if its true and helpful

[frosty owl]

As Shrek always is

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.

I am waiting for the new truck stations so I can test things and put vehicle specialist back next to my name 😦

[frosty owl]

What's the "purist" about?

Oh, seems like greeny lost his title... Sad :/

[fierce ruin]

Disdain for mods. 😛

[frosty owl]

Tsk. Moddist

[fierce ruin]

True, you've never been one to boast.

👉 👉

[frosty owl]

I feel like you one-upped my pun, but it's also whooshing me 🤔

[fierce ruin]

Moddist = Modest

[magic shadow]

no

[fierce ruin]

Modest = Humble.

[frosty owl]

||It was supposed to be racist - > moddist 🤣 ||

[fierce ruin]

Aye. But the pronunciation was too good to pass up.

[frosty owl]

Well played 🍷

[fierce ruin]

😄

[frosty owl]

This sentence drips sarcasm

[fierce ruin]

Indeed.

[lilac coral]

Im trying to figure out whats going on with my tanks??😜

[fierce ruin]

Keep in mind if they aren't at least partially full anything you think about how the fluids will "flow" through them isn't accurate.

Also your diagram doesn't apply because they don't have multiple outputs on each side.

So what is happening is fluid from the sides is attempting to fill the buffers.
Then it is attempting to flow from the buffers.
If one buffer fills faster it will flow out first and that flow is then split between heading towards you and filling the other buffer.
When the other buffer reaches it's fullness to allow it to flow properly, it now is emptying both towards the center and to the other side it's getting input from.

As you can see already, there is a lot of sloshing happening which is going to lead to very unstable results for you.

[bleak coral]

Also it's absolutely not a realistic fluid simulation. So real life physics don't apply.

[lilac coral]

I sincerely appreciate the effort Sev with trying to help, but I was trying to make a poor Differential equations joke since this is the math channel, lol. Not sure it got across =p

[fierce ruin]

THIS GAME IS 100% REAL, THAT'S WHY CONCRETE BOUNDED BY METAL FLOATS IN MID-AIR. 😛

[bleak coral]

looks like it flew over two people's heads lol

[muted crypt]

if you don't think "it will fall" then it won't fall.

duh. lol

[fierce ruin]

"I'm trying to figure out" in a math channel doesn't translate to "THIS IS ME TELLING A JOKE" very well and I believe you can understand why. 😦

[lilac coral]

lol well, I apologize.

[fierce ruin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[muted crypt]

not that you guys asked, but you can make 1,731,600 points per minute if you use every bit of copper in the world to make copper sheets and sink 'em.

can you tell I'm bored at work?

[lean horizon]

Ironically, I just had a new idea for a pointless mega build 😛

[muted crypt]

you get more points per copper ingot if you use steamed sheets (1->1 for ingots->sheets, 24 points per sheet) than you would if you made wire out of it (1->2 for ingots->wire, 6 points per spool)

however...

you can make a disgusting 3,006,059.4 points per minute if you turn all iron, copper and caterium into wire. You'd be left with 0.4 iron ingots per minute as excess.

[dark summit]

So I can still make my heavy modular frames then, perfect

[muted crypt]

I unfortunately cannot calculate down far enough with greeny's calc to see how many HMFs you can make per minute, but... it's less than 0.01

[lean horizon]

Does that include pure recipies?

[muted crypt]

yes

[lean horizon]

oh boy

[muted crypt]

I realize the uObject limit would probably be hit by this point but just with the wire alone does anyone know how many uObjects a spool of wire is

[dark summit]

Well, got my project for today, will give my results later

[muted crypt]

because we have a little over 501k per minute being made

[muted crypt]

godspeed

but yeah I tried to maximize HMFs with the calculator disabling iron, copper and caterium ores and providing 0.4 iron ingots per minute

it can still be done, it's just incredibly slow

at least... supposedly it can

[lean horizon]

I'd love to do this in some ideal world where you world edit all the nodes next to each other on a platform and just lay out a line

And see how far it'll stretch

[muted crypt]

It's now choosing to tell me it isn't possible >:C

you can produce 0.02 modular frames per minute

so there's that I guess

[thorn bane]

spools of wire are not uobjects but the 10000 constructors probably hit it

[lean horizon]

You can over clock things to bring the individual needs down

[muted crypt]

idk how the object thing even works

[dark summit]

You would have to go over 2.1 million objects

[muted crypt]

but I assume building this would crash your game lmao

[lean horizon]

You'd probably have to wipe all foliage, and all ai from everything

just anything besides building processing

[muted crypt]

not even a hub, sad

[thorn bane]

the problem is not the uObject limit its the 0.1 FPS youd have

[muted crypt]

fair point

[lean horizon]

it would probably start to derender a lot of stuff

[dark summit]

Already doing the foliage for my power plant

[lean horizon]

this doesn't even include power gen

what's the power consumption on that baby?

and if this was being built, i'd just have a no-power cheat

[muted crypt]

sec

[thorn bane]

constructors are not that bad for power

[lean horizon]

214GW isn't even too bad

[thorn bane]

ye thats only 85 nuclear reactors

[dark summit]

If you are far enough a way it should be fine because of the level of detail decreasing, right? and eventually it would disappear

[muted crypt]

can't do nuclear I believe

[thorn bane]

oh right xD

[muted crypt]

you'd be forced into turbofuel

water, crude oil, sulfur... that's it, right?

coal

[dark summit]

Would also have to be built before hand but that wouldn't be a problem

[muted crypt]

those four aren't used for the wire (one is but it's water, lul), so they're safe to use for power

just SCIM copy my turbofuel setup in my U4 save and we're good to go

[lean horizon]

^

[muted crypt]

would put us to 240 GW, so we have leeway

[thorn bane]

btw this is kinda what you do for max sink points because automated wiring uses alot of cable

[muted crypt]

OH WAIT I know why the HMF thing was saying impossible

it's because I forgot to enable alts when I made the new tab for it

[lean horizon]

wowwwwwwww

shame

[muted crypt]

so this is with the 0.4 iron ingots per minute that come from excess when making wire

but then we could make some turbofuel out of it, or regular fuel I suppose if we wanted "more stuff"

as we have 0.35 HOR per minute

and the resin could be used to make filters?

resin -> fabric -> filters

[lean horizon]

i love the ridiculousness of scale that has gotten to be

[muted crypt]

-> iodine filters?

so yeah resin can be made into fabric, then no restrictions to make the filters...

ah damn we can't make iodine filters!

no quickwire!

[dark summit]

portable miner

Is that 0.01 HMF as low as the site will calculate or is it what it actually is?

[muted crypt]

that's as slow as the site can calculate

if you look at the machine making them, it shows 0.00x of the machine lol

assuming we don't grab what is more than necessary before the HOR excess from the HMF step, we have this left over for fuel...

I had to disable crude oil just to even get that to work

these are approximations unfortunately because of how low the numbers are, we don't know for sure if that's 0.35 HOR, it could be something slightly off

[dark summit]

Not out of my job yet then

[muted crypt]

nope

the filter output is so slow it doesn't even register an output from the machine lmao

Greeny I'm breaking your shit big time with my dumb ideas

[lean horizon]

We're doing free QA 😛

[muted crypt]

@wind spade out of curiosity, do you plan to update your calculator to be more precise for machine clock speeds now that they go beyond two decimal places?

[dark summit]

I take it I can't use oil because that is all being used by the turbofuel?

[thorn bane]

they are precise its just the display

if you multiply all inputs by 100x you get the same output x100

[lean horizon]

Can we have an decimal precision level slider 😛

[wind spade]

they are rounded to two decimal places and yes there's planned update for more

[wind spade]

uhh, too much text, can you link stuff that I need to answer? 😛

[lean horizon]

just small decimal places being calculated but not shown is a pretty succinct summary

[muted crypt]

this

which is all you needed to answer, so thank you

[wind spade]

oh yeah I didn't assume anyone would want to produce 0.00001/min of something

[muted crypt]

but tl;dr dumb shit with math, wanna make 501k wire?

[dark summit]

Basically maroonraptor got boared and turned iron caterium and copper into wire with a bit of iron left over, I made a joke about HMF then raptor tried to calculate HMF via your calculator

[muted crypt]

and as you can see by Schrodinger's manufacturer at the end of the chain here, it seems two decimal places aren't enough - we have it present but it's listed as 0.00x of the machine

the "bit of iron left over" is 0.4 iron ingots per minute, if you're curious

all of the copper and caterium is used fully

[thorn bane]

well youd just turn 0.4 iron ingots into iron wire right?

[muted crypt]

you'd think

[dark summit]

Also do we have coal left over to make steel, from the turbofuel?

[muted crypt]

well if we're only making fuel in the confines of the excess HOR from the HMF step

I'd say yes, we have plenty of coal left

[thorn bane]

hm why is it not using the 0.4 iron
that sounds like a bug

[dark summit]

I thought we used lots of turbo fuel to power the wire factory?

[muted crypt]

we do, hang on

sing this set of recipes specifically we don't use ANY coal

so we do still have plenty of coal for steel

^this diagram is just double what my save has

😅 my peewee brain is like "yeah it'll be fine let's make this wire setup"

[muted crypt]

the 0.4 iron ingots per minute come from the heavy modular frame step, which is where I get the 0.35 excess heavy oil residue per minute for the screenshot above your message

[thorn bane]

no i mean in the wire production

[wind spade]

99% rounding error

[thorn bane]

damn with that low numbers?

[wind spade]

I'm limited to 4 decimal number precision from software that solves the linear problem 🤷‍♂️

(I'm trying to resolve this in new version, hopefuly)

[muted crypt]

but yes, this

214 GW ish

surprisingly doable, if you constitute doable as "theoretically possible" but ignore the practicality or computer capacity

[wind spade]

you can also see that it uses 0.10 iron ore more than it "can"

so yeah, rounding error

[muted crypt]

oh I didn't even notice that

If I may ask, why would that happen? I don't know how your code does its thing, but how is there a rounding error on the resources provided at the very start of calculations?

also when fixing the 0.1 extra iron ore and reintegrating the 0.4 excess iron ingot there's ~235,270.29 wire coming from the iron path, not 235269.90 as shown by the calculator

not enough to make a difference in the grand scheme of things

[wind spade]

relatively short answer:

1. the tool (website) will generate a production request (basically all the info you put into the website) and send it to API (server)
2. API gathers the data, processes it (removes stuff that has request of 0, merges stuff together, etc.) and generates linear programming model.
3. API passes the linear programming model to a software called lp_solver, which solves the model, returns a result. In my case the result is "how many times which recipe has to be used" (the solver doesn't count in "per minute", but in item counts, so basically you're asking it how to make X items and it produces the result, which is how many times you need to "craft" each recipe)
4. this result is parsed (because I get it from lp_solver as text, so I have to find the values I need) and formatted so that the website can use it.
5. parsed result is sent back to the website
6. website calculates from "number of crafts" -> "number of machines", creates the nodes in visualisation
7. website uses some spaghetti code dark magic to connect the nodes, keeping track of how much of each node's production has already been connected to other consumers. After all is connected, anything that's not yet connected (or has some % of product not connected) is treated as byproduct and a green node is added and connected

So, there are two small rounding-error-possible places at points 6 and 7, but the major one is 4, since lp_solver returns result with only 3-4 decimal places, so I have no way to get better precision. (In new version, I'm trying to "improve" precision by "guessing" if a number has a period or not and if yes, I increase the precision)

Also in new version I'm switching to slightly different calculations which also means that I'll get directly list of products and byproducts (and their amounts) generated, so I won't have to "guess" anymore and numbers will be more exact.

(also for the resources at the beginning - they are "guessed" the same way as the byproducts)

[muted crypt]

Interesting

[wind spade]

there's so much more going on behind the scenes, if I'd describe everything, we'll be here for a few hours 😄

[muted crypt]

I'd enjoy that but my grades wouldn't

[frosty owl]

Especially when you remember that that is the short answer

[torpid robin]

When I started reading that . I was like how the hell is this the short answer lol

[dark summit]

Just have to decide which type of modular frame is best now then should be able to get my answer

[wind spade]

trust me the long answer is really long and full of unnecessary details 😛

(but may be fun for some tech savvy people)

(and also I said it's relatively short 😛 )

[fierce ruin]

@wind spade so my one question in reading all of that:

The solver works based on actual input-output cycles as seen in-game correct? It does not do any converting?

Example: For a baseline iron plates it would use 3 Ingot = 2 Plate and it would NOT switch it to 1.5 = 1.

[dark summit]

At 0.4 iron ingots per minute it takes 2.92 hours, to get one HMF just using the regular recipe for them(2 hours 55 mins)

Going to do flexible frames next

[thorn bane]

@frosty owl do you know if a smart splitter can sometimes change the order items come out?
like ABABABABAB go in but ABABBAABAB comes out
i think thats happening to my sushi belt but the ratio stays the same so its not a problem

[frosty pawn]

splitter has 3 outputs like 123, when an item comes out of 1, the list of outputs available is 23 and it stays this way until enough time has passed that the belt connected to 1 is ready to receive another item. this amount of time varies depending on the speed of the belt and the game's tick rate. when enough time has passed the list is 231. if the outputs send stuff out at the same time and then get re-added to the list at the same time there is a chance that they get re-added to the list in the wrong order because it's all based on time and the cpu takes time to calculate things so there may be a teeny tiny delay which is just big enough to make something happen late enough that it gets done on the next tick

[thorn bane]

no i mean on 1 line so a mixed line in and a mixed line out

[frosty pawn]

the timing of the out lines can affect which items go where

if you look at the items on the in line you see 123123123123 but the outputs might go 1231231231213

if you have 3 different items going in a splitter and you want each output to be a different type of item, that's what smart splitters are for. if you are trying to balance stuff with splitters and mergers, it's not worth the trouble.

[thorn bane]

well its a sushi line so i know its not worth for normal use but its still fun :D
this is the setup:

and sometimes i get

[wind spade]

not really, sure, I didn't write the solver itself and it kinda may do that. Shouldn't be a big issue though

[frosty owl]

What's the output set to?
Ideally, the smart splitter should work as a FIFO as long as all outputs can receive that much as you try to push through

[thorn bane]

left concrete (the filler item) middle rest

[void berry]

hey how do you split something into 5 even outputs

[thorn bane]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorial:Prime_splitter_arrays

[void berry]

thx

[frosty owl]

If you use "any undefined" instead of overflow, it shouldn't change the order...

[frosty owl]

Long story short, you split in 6 and merge 1 of the sixths back with the input
This works for any other cumbersome number of splits

[void berry]

okay thx

[wind spade]

you can also do a manifold

[void berry]

@wind spade what's that

[wind spade]

--S--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |  |
  X  X  X  X  X

[void berry]

Oh okay thx

Completely forgot about that method

[burnt wraith]

if you want even outputs you have to do splitter nonsense, but if you just want 5 outputs and don't care about even, use manifold

[fierce ruin]

After manifold finishes spooling it is also even outputs, tbf.

[burnt wraith]

only if your input>output

[wind spade]

also if input = output

[muted crypt]

got bored at work (again), made a diagram showing it work for input = output... if input > output, eventually all machines would be labeled full, and if input < output the machines on the ends would be starved

[wind spade]

it's a bit misleading to call the last two machines "filling"

[muted crypt]

fair

one moment

[wind spade]

they are stabilised at whatever they have, but they won't ever fill if input=output

I'd go for "underfed" "100% fed" and "overfed" or something like that

[muted crypt]

better?

[wind spade]

yeah, cool

[muted crypt]

filling where provided > required, stable where provided = required, starved where provided < required

[wind spade]

yeah, that's way better naming than what I've come with xD

[spiral echo]

So stable would mean 100 % efficiency ?

[wind spade]

yeah

[muted crypt]

stable would mean there's never much of a buffer inside of the machine, unless you manually feed it excess

[spiral echo]

Ok

[muted crypt]

but in general it would mean that materials are being put in at the same rate as they're being used

[wind spade]

manifolds can reach 100% efficiency when input = output

[muted crypt]

hence "stable"

[muted crypt]

and that's what the little diagram was meant to display ^-^

obviously I could show it for larger sample sizes of machines, requirement per machine and provided materials

[wind spade]

yeah, definitely nice to have. Maybe worth addition to wiki?

[muted crypt]

not sure I remember how to add stuff, but I'm also not a wiki person, so

but idm if it's put on there 😄

[wind spade]

wiki is free to be edited by anyone 😉

you don't even need an account

I'd help you if I wasn't on mobile and going to bed 😛

[muted crypt]

added explanations of each word at the bottom

is the wording of the meaning okay? or should it be changed?

[muted crypt]

I'll figure out how to add it, thank you though aha

[wind spade]

maybe resource income instead of machine income... or resource input?

[muted crypt]

swap "machine" with "resource" perhaps

[wind spade]

for requirement, I'd go with recipe, but that may confuse more than help (although it's technically more correct)

[muted crypt]

technically correct is the best kind of correct

resource income [sign] resource consumption

how's that?

[wind spade]

sounds good, food for thought: replace income with input

[muted crypt]

sure

I might make a few more samples just as proofs of concept

🤔 I should replace all instances of "full" with "stable"

problem is, full is a special type of stable I guess?

I'll put the full ones as full (stable)

I'm talking to myself but I don't even care

[versed violet]

Will there be ponies in that diagram? 🐎

[muted crypt]

I can add one

[versed violet]

You might be mixing dynamic and static state in the pic. Full/empty/partial fill is the static state, and filling/not filling/stable is the dynamic state that leads to it.

[might also make sense to add T+0, T+1, T+2 on the left, to avoid people asking 'how do I build the third best one, they all look the same']

[muted crypt]

I guess the issue with denoting it as T+X is the fact that T is arbitrary, unless you think I should actually display how long it would take for the next step to occur

I was going to label them as just "stage X"

[versed violet]

I didn't write T+x seconds, because I'm too lazy to count them, but feel free to add the seconds to avoid questions 'how long it takes'

[muted crypt]

I guess the issue is that the elapsed time varies based on item used

Should I establish the recipe being made up front?

or should I keep it arbitrary?

(i.e. just indicate the progression of the "stages" of resource balancing)

[dark summit]

I think it is fine without a recipe, less you add the less there is to confuse, but probably add the stages

[muted crypt]

I made this one to pass the time and mess around with formatting without redoing the original one. Thoughts?

I gave a sample recipe to use to follow along at the bottom, but left the diagram itself "blank"

[dark summit]

Looks great

[muted crypt]

😄

[versed violet]

Belting advice needed:
I need to do an 90 turn on pair of belts while also bringing them 4m down.
Eg. from marked outputs to two stacked belts going right by the wall, order doesn't matter.
Right(red) output can be moved right if necessary, left one has no wiggle space.
Putting two conveyor lifts will make them collide, and there is no '2m conveyor lift' in game.
I reaaaaaly want to avoid clipping of belts and belt items.
There is a second lane available (I'm trying to connect the belt on pic, but its still to steep.)

[fierce ruin]

you can just move a bit the power pole with you red belt to be able to build the belt ? 1 or 2m should be enough

[versed violet]

Got the same idea a moment ago. Worked, but supercomputer are tall thingies and kept banging on the belt on right.
Putting lift on right solved the problem tho, moved the right output and got enough space to run quartz even without using that 1m short piece 👍

[mossy radish]

So I have power figured out now I need the most effective way to make smart plates (within reason) and I was wondering if the community here could help me do the math for 3 250 clocked assemblers like power and how many plates it will make

Please

[fierce ruin]

you want 3250 assembler of smart plating ? i guess i didn't understand well because that's a lot.

[mossy radish]

My goal are beyond your under standing, I need 500+

[fierce ruin]

you need 500 what ?

[mossy radish]

Smart plates

[fierce ruin]

1 assembler build 2 smart plate / min, without overclocking.

if you want 500 smart plate / min, that's 250 assembler; if you want that in 10 min that's 25 and so on.

[mossy radish]

Ok so if I have a hour

[fierce ruin]

for an hour, that's 250/60 assembler, so a bit more than 4.

[mossy radish]

So clock speed

[fierce ruin]

and some tools can help you plan it: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=8MLIPa7mvweMqDZPSbCu

[mossy radish]

Thanks

[dark summit]

If you are going for tier7 and 8 you need 1000 smart plating

[heavy meteor]

I have 960 quartz per minute and am using the basic crystal oscillator recipe and crystal computer alt, how much should I give for each?

[bleak coral]

up to you, there's no optimal end product goals, it's all arbitrary

[fringe pawn]

Based on them consciously limiting zoop, is does seem like they don't have any meaningful care to people who want to use every node on the planet. But even for smaller scale builds, I don't get this attitude of 'you will place your dozens of constructors 1 at a time because you should.'

Zoop would've been fantastic for nuclear plants just because their footprint is so damned big they're a little annoying.

[swift robin]

ikr it feels like a super arbitrary limitation

[fringe pawn]

Building games have had drag and hold for mass build for over 20 years now, at least. Can anyone point to a game that has such features, which would be made better by them being removed?

[neat crest]

manufacturers should be able to act as 4 constructors/2 assemblers at once and produce 4x/2x recipes

The benefits would be some power saving and logistics condensing

[solid stream]

Yes but common sense would rule out that something that is built for complex purposes should be used for complex processes

having 1 machine capable of making everything in a more condensed and power efficient way would totally kill the game

[mossy radish]

Ok from my current iron production I will be getting 360 iron ore so how much should I dedicate to steel production

That will take 12 smelters (if my math is right)

Please help what should be my iron ore ratio

Also currently I have 3/12 smelters down

[dark summit]

It doesn't really matter but my starting steel was 120 per min iron, without solid steel ingots

[warm sphinx]

nice

[dark summit]

#screenshots ?

[oblique hollow]

You build how much you need.
Set yourself goals. "I want 5 reinforced iron plates per minute" or something. Then work back from there.

Same for steel. Set yourself goals. If it turns out your goals need more iron than you currently have: find more

Going " I have x iron ore, how much can i make" is useless because you just get lost on the branching recipe paths of satisfactory

[slate solar]

What is the difference between figure 1 and 4? Why and how did it get balanced?

[fierce ruin]

it's just the evolution over time: the machines aren't full first, so they can get more ressources than they use.

when they are full, they get just as many ressources as they need

[slate solar]

This is a constant issue when I try to build big factories, I can't ever seem to get it to balance out and be at full production capacity

[wind spade]

machines are getting full

[fierce ruin]

if you build a manifold, lie on the picture above; and you ensure you have enough material coming in all factories should get what they need

[wind spade]

full machine doesn't accept items, so it basically just accepts enough items to keep it running, overflowing rest of the products further

[slate solar]

I think it has to do with how I set up my conveyors, since I usually split one full conveyor to 3 machines (In this case smelters), and then they don't really get what they should

[fierce ruin]

that should work too, if you have enough material at the start, and you wait a bit for machines to fill

[wind spade]

that really depends on how much is there on the belt and how much the machine needs

[muted crypt]

oh I just saw this ping

[wind spade]

@solid stream this is how my graph may look like

it tries it's best to put the nodes in good places, but sometimes it's not as easy, that's why you can drag'n'drop the nodes around and arrange them as you want

[solid stream]

that's a little bit of iron

makes sense however

[sacred epoch]

With this setup, my smelters are still stalling slightly. Pure node.

[wind spade]

give it some time, it's sort of a manifold and that takes time to work correctly

in a few minutes it should work properly

[edgy marsh]

(basic math check, haven't done any pipes this large yet) I have 720/min oil, all going to fuel, so 12 refineries (3 pods of 4, each sharing a 240/min mk1 pipe). This makes 480 fuel/min, so I can manifold to 40 fuel generators off a shared mk2 pipe, right?

[sacred epoch]

Been running for at least an hour, maybe more.

[agile fractal]

Anyone have a good calculator on what I would need to 60 turbo motors per minute?

[wind spade]

what do you mean by "stalling" then? not having enough or having too much input?

[wind spade]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=yIRMkIfjVh2vK52y5sbp

[agile fractal]

Ty

[sacred epoch]

Not enough ore input.

[wind spade]

do you have mk2 belts everywhere?

[sacred epoch]

All belts mk1

[wind spade]

well there's your issue

mk1 belts can only do 60/min

and you need 120/min. At least the main belts should be mk2

[sacred epoch]

lmao /bonkself

[wind spade]

(though ideally you want everything from max belt anyway)

[edgy marsh]

+1, I was trying to use the right size belt for things but mentally it's just easier to use the highest one you have

[twilit orchid]

or for me the highest level that I have lots of

[wind spade]

then automate more 😛

[twilit orchid]

working on it but steel is a hot commodity right now

[agile fractal]

Is 60 turbo motors even viable?

[wind spade]

if you mean possible, then yes

[agile fractal]

60/min

That’s a fuckload of iron ore per min lmao

[wind spade]

it's up to the player if they think if they need that many (but you can always sink them)

[agile fractal]

Its just for the lulz

[frosty owl]

Iirc, nitrogen is the limiting factor for turbomotors

[wind spade]

can be reduced by A LOT if you use alt recipes

I got 10140 -> 2821.5

[fierce ruin]

i build and use 65 turbomotor / min on my last playthrough, it's viable, but it's a save where i use most of all nodes (except iron and limestone)

[agile fractal]

Yeah.

Just more of a challenge

My other challenge is building a pretty megabase

I am not very artistic though

[frosty owl]

Better take lots of inspiration from #screenshots

[young rover]

The U5 will give us much more options to decorate tho

[mossy radish]

Yo smart bro dudes how isn’t like 360 coal produced with a mk2 on a pure coal vain

[oblique hollow]

do you have mk 4 belts?

also mk 2 on a pure node is only 240

[mossy radish]

Ok it take 180 coal to fuel 4 making basic steel bars foundry’s right i think my math was right

I think that is how math works

How

[oblique hollow]

decault recipe is 45 coal and iron ore to 45 steel ingots soooo yes

[mossy radish]

Yo baller, how would I add like 60 more coal per minute to a split of belt

[kind wigeon]

unless you can unlock the next tier of belts, injected manifolds are the way to go

M for Merger, S for Splitter

basically just split the main belt into the production buildings, then when you can fit the extra 60/m, merge a second belt into the "main" belt

[kind wigeon]

alternatively, make a balancer by splitting and merging the belts with each other for 90/m each

[wind spade]

or build two separated production lines, each producing and consuming half of the total

[kind wigeon]

that works too

[oblique hollow]

merge a full mk 1 belt with the belt that has space?

[frosty owl]

I had a realization... I can totally make use of a priority merger system for my sushi copper/caterium ore @thorn bane
I feed sets of 10 pure refineries with a single mixed belt, feeding it a total of 600 ore from a station so they all start at the same time (10 MK1 as inputs) without prefill
Then I can priority merge the "extra" caterium and copper back to where I mix the unloaded ores

[mossy radish]

What

[oblique hollow]

you wanted to add 60 more coal

[mossy radish]

Yes I have a mk3 with 120 idk how to get 180 on it

[oblique hollow]

overclock

[mossy radish]

Overclock what the splinter lol

[oblique hollow]

the miner?

[mossy radish]

I ok will try

[oblique hollow]

you can limit how much gets split off belts by changing the tier of the belt

[mossy radish]

Yeah I know

[oblique hollow]

otherwise: find a place to get 60 coal, and merge it with the mk 3 with 120 on it

[mossy radish]

So a mk1 belt and a mk3 bet get 180 on the belt when merged

[agile fractal]

Huh

Belts dont combine like that

Unless the outbelt is higher tier

[finite star]

Donda

😁

[steel bloom]

Do satisfactory trains abide by normal kinematic motion?
With axial rotation / potential energy accounted for?
And maybe centripedal acceleration as well?

Just how much into detail do the trains physics go into to account for the velocity?
(This is where I would post links to the equations and such but it won't let me)

I'm been doing some math for the trains, and I've been assuming that (given a linear path and no variation on the axis parallel to gravity): that velocity is v(t)=min(at,120km/h)

[versed violet]

There doesn't seem to be any physics simulation, just a simple slowdown/speedpup on slopes.

[fierce ruin]

from what i understand, trains have a speed limit where they stop accelerating, and before that they have an acceleration that just depend on the ratio between engine and car and the slope where the are.

[versed violet]

The train has fixed 'tilt' dependant on track curvature.

[dusty ruin]

!wikisearch truck

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=truck

[river light]

<@&387163995947270144>

[main spindle]

<@&387163995947270144>

thanks

[muted crypt]

rise and shine, unofficial mathematicians, we have new shitpost calculations to do

[oblique hollow]

wat

where

[opal fulcrum]

I got all excited then

[muted crypt]

I didn't actually have anything to post I was hoping it would encourage conversation because the channel's been dead so far today lol

but good news you can make a 3784/min nobelisk factory and only cap out on quartz and sulfur by doing so

[wind spade]

dead channel? oh noes

[muted crypt]

I know

it must be fixed

[wind spade]

suggest a topic of conversation then 😛

[muted crypt]

uhhhhhhhhhh okay so I feel like I've asked this a few times now but what recipes would I want for max nuclear

[wind spade]

e.g.: Casted Screw - just a shit recipe or a really bad one?

[muted crypt]

Casted Screw is good only in the early game where resources and power feel like a bit of a barrier

[wind spade]

and even then stitched saves more 🤷‍♂️

[muted crypt]

hence I'd say really bad, but not shit

When I say early game I generally mean "I'm still making screws for HUB turn-ins"

slightly off topic, but Lym is playing factorio, something something "traitor"

[wind spade]

at that point is it really viable to get alt recipes? 🤔

for max nuclear, it depends if uranium only or plutonium as well

[thorn bane]

remember guys
fixit doenst waste
sink your rods

[muted crypt]

Plutonium as well, but I'd probably sink the plutonium rods until I hit the point of needing them as well

have an ISC of buffer for the reactors and let the excess go to a sink

[glacial hemlock]

That's wasteful

[glacial hemlock]

Is shitty, but better-than-none.

[thorn bane]

thoughts on Steeled Frames?

i feel like alot of people like that recipe but personally i hate steel pipes so i usually avoid it

[fierce ruin]

it's good to win on machine count and energy; but i prefer normal modular frame

[muted crypt]

same^

[signal anvil]

hey, got an early game math check for you (thought I did it right but it seems my rotor assembler is running out of metal rods (very) slowly)

all standard recipes

[wind spade]

normal modular frame is more resource efficient 🤷‍♂️