math-and-meta

[cedar mica]

If I remember right, that was 2 pure nods, with constructors. With wet concrete, you can probably get away with 1 pure, if not less

[lament jolt]

I've only collected two hard drives so far

[cedar mica]

As you build, you spot more drives. Dont even need to explore, if you need highways accross the map

[lament jolt]

Mainly the HMFs so I can build more fuel gens...hence the concrete

[cedar mica]

On big projects, split the duty. Some fuel gens, some pipe work, some platforms... That way, you dont need all the HMFs right away

[lament jolt]

Hmm...maybe. have 20 running now with 10 coal plants also, and my first attempt to organize my starter base has gotten kinda bizarre

[shrewd topaz]

So I'm using the manifold method to "load balance". However, I'm using the overflow splitter for three separate lines. I have 227.5 iron entering and should be consuming it all. However, the last two constructors in the last overflow just aren't getting enough iron despite the rest being full. Is there a way to remedy this?

[shrewd topaz]

The annoying this is I can't load balance proper numbers without tearing up the entire factory and rebuilding it from scratch

I just don't understand because the math adds up but it's just not functioning

[bleak coral]

ohp we got a "oil is the rarest and most precious resource" pair editing the hard drive alt analysis lol

on the wiki

[topaz hedge]

is that a good thing?

[bleak coral]

they moved electrode aluminum scrap to the "Situationally useful, but not resource efficient recipes" category cause it uses oil instead of coal.....

[topaz hedge]

Maybe it's one of the same that wants to burn me at the stake for mentioning using oil to conserve another precious resource... like steel.

or copper lol

[bleak coral]

or bauxite lol

[topaz hedge]

Yeah, I mean, why use a precious resource when you can use loads more of something else that's limited. I'm pretty sure if you just ask them, they'll kindly tell you that oil was put into the game to look pretty, not to be used.

[bleak coral]

haha

[loud heron]

Oooh

[topaz hedge]

nevermind the fact that the moment you start using it for serious production of RCU's, fused frames and cooling units.. it disappears so fast.. So what can you do about it? I was kind of under the impression that the wiki should only offer basic advice on how to do things.. telling someone not to use something sounds like personal preference to me

[loud heron]

I just realized how train stations handle partial containers

They lift the FREIGHT STATION MODULE ONTO THE CAR

Instead of making the box to load onto the car

It takes the same time to load a container from empty and loading partially

[bleak coral]

the wiki has some guide-like parts, including the alt list

the alt list is definitely the most opinionated part

[loud heron]

Technically arent all the recipes more efficient than their original counterpart

I think they're judged on the rarity of the materials used in the alt

And the complexity of the facility

[bleak coral]

no, not all the alts are more efficient

not even close

[topaz hedge]

I haven't found the page where they're expressing their opinion

[loud heron]

I think the heavy residue into turbofuel is probably less efficient at the advantage of simplicity

[bleak coral]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Hard_Drive#Alternate_recipe_analysis

[topaz hedge]

some alts need other alts to work, well, or at all.

[loud heron]

Yeh

But they all have their own advantages and disadvantages

[bleak coral]

you have to look at the history on that page

[loud heron]

I personally would take a less efficient recipe if it cut down on like half the machines

[bleak coral]

most alts do something, they're usually not all around better or worse

[topaz hedge]

Yeah just the title sounds like opinon.. I read an "indepth" analysis on reddit once... the man called caterium circuitboards trash, silicone circuit boards the best alt, and then on the same page as he touted how great silicon circuitboards were, he took a dump on cheap silica

So you like spending more copper to make circuitboards? That's cool. it's a fast recipe.. but in your opinion I should burn more of my copper AND quarts? what..

lol.. Imma stop reading this anaysis right here as I think anyone who's run the numbers knows this is not true, it's more of a convenience "Steel Screw" is ultimately more resource-efficient"

[bleak coral]

I don't know, I'd rather trash the section completely. I think it's misleading to try to rank alt recipes rather than discussing their strengths and weaknesses. That's how you get shit where everyone likes steel screws cause it's fast but the meta is to be resource efficient so people conclude it must be resource efficient because everyone likes it.

Rather than just if you're gonna do screws, steel screws is just much nicer than casted or steel rod > regular screws

[topaz hedge]

Yeah.. that's how I feel too, it should have a short description of pros and cons or someting. when someone asks about an alt, I try to tell them it's useful in x factory of y production but uses more of z

"Plastic Smart Plating: Involves Oil which is a limited resource, hurting its utility in late-game, but can be useful in mid-game as it is 5x faster and twice as efficient per Reinforced Iron Plate and Rotor used." LOL... you go make that 50 thermal rocket factory without it, Okay I'm done now

[bleak coral]

keep in mind people aren't editing this constantly, and a lot of these are from before the fluid update

[loud heron]

It can always be updated

They did add their own opinions for the blender recipes lol

[topaz hedge]

fair, but by midgame you'd assume one would already have a decent modular engine factory, and before U4 there was no uses for them after that last unlock

[loud heron]

Hah u wish

Im still making like 5 motors a minute

Cause I dunno how much i need to make.
SF has an issue of not giving you any clue how big to make stuff

[bleak coral]

I mean that's frankly cause it's mostly self-driven

[topaz hedge]

I lied.. i might not be done "Coated Iron Plate, Steel Coated Plate, Adhered Iron Plate: All involve Oil which is a relatively rare resource" >.> yeah this whole section should just be trashed

[glacial hemlock]

Great idea, i think giving each recipe a stats instead of ranking them would be a good improvement

@topaz hedge perhaps you didn't know the history, the oil was much more precious back then

[topaz hedge]

just a quick pros and cons, uses x or more of x to reduce usage of y, and a note if it's faster or slower than the original recipe.

Recycled plastic and recycled rubber has been around for long enough that plastic/rubber should be considered about as valuable as bauxite, sulfur and quartz.

[glacial hemlock]

No..

[bleak coral]

We have about 70% more oil than at the start of update 3

that's the big difference now

[topaz hedge]

damn.

[bleak coral]

oil has gone from one of the rarest, to about mid-rare now

so it throws a lot of the old analysis for a loop

[jade shore]

I like the rigor this guy puts into his analysis: https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/f6kova/my_indepth_analysis_of_the_new_update_3_alternate/

[topaz hedge]

That's fair, and I suppose it's somewhat understandable.. kind of for those who played before U3 and can't keep up XD

[jade shore]

but he's still working on Update 4 stuff, so no help at the moment

[glacial hemlock]

I have read that, i can agree 50% of the analysis statements

[topaz hedge]

Yup that's the man that praised silicone circuitboards and shit on cheap silica lol

[bleak coral]

I agree though that if there's gonna be an analysis section there shouldn't be any ranking. It should just be factual what the recipe does. It's better to discuss with other people why what it does may or may not be useful than to fight that out on a page.

[jade shore]

to be fair, cheap silica was very space and power hungry

[glacial hemlock]

Silicon circuit+cat coms is better than the other way round for a long time

[bleak coral]

Even ranking it by something objective like resource efficiency implies that that's the most important thing to consider.

[topaz hedge]

it still is, but you can chew through so much quartz so quickly that if you can get more quartz out of something.. it's a no brainer.

[bleak coral]

Seismic Nobelisk : Just no. You don't need more efficiency for your boom booms. And you definitely don't want to deal with crystal oscillators being part of that chain!
Although there are some universal truths lol

no one likes seismic nobs

[glacial hemlock]

At update 2, recycled plastic was a trash. Just to name another example.

[topaz hedge]

but we're not on update 2, or 3 anymore!

[gusty nexus]

i feel like everything that adds a reagent of a higher "tier" than the normal recipe is garbage

[topaz hedge]

we've moved on and need new ways of thinking. lol

[loud heron]

Do batteries need to meet factory demand before they discharge?

[glacial hemlock]

@gusty nexus not for radio unit,

[loud heron]

Like if I have a 500MW factory, do I need 500MWh of battery?

[topaz hedge]

no

[loud heron]

Cause i cant seem to jumpstart this factory

[glacial hemlock]

No

[topaz hedge]

what are you trying to start?

[gusty nexus]

nah, they will spend their charge to bridge power shortages regardless of how much power they are currently holding

[glacial hemlock]

Battery discharge as fast as your factory demand

[loud heron]

So I have a fuel plant that needs 2000MW to jumpstart

[bleak coral]

the power storages need to be charged first, they don't come with power

[loud heron]

and I have like...12 batteries for 1200MHw power

But when I activate the fuel plant it kills the fuse

They are charged.

[gusty nexus]

what i don't get is how you are able to make a fuel plant that big without already having more than 2 GW

[topaz hedge]

power storages should only be used for emergencies, or (other uses)

[loud heron]

Well from what Id expect, a 2000MW factory should run for 1 Hour on a 2000MWh battery farm yes?

[topaz hedge]

rushing fuel. So, even so if your batteries are charged, they should run your fuel plant for... half an hour give or take.. that should be plenty of time for it to start up?

[loud heron]

https://puu.sh/HB03E/0429c8585d.png

[gusty nexus]

re-check your power connections, i would say

[topaz hedge]

Yeah, and your fuel plant.. be sure to standby most of your generators so the pipes can fill too

[loud heron]

The fuel plant has a power switch that says Power Grid A is my main factory

and Power Grid B is the newly made fuel plant

[topaz hedge]

alrighty then. lol well still, standby your fuel gens so the pipes can fill, and make sure your power storages are charged and connected to the fuel plant..

[oblique hollow]

Power Storages can supply any amount of power for a varying amount of time

[topaz hedge]

They finally admitted to the pipes having issues! sempai has noticed us

..part of me wants to reintroduce/undo the minor fixes I made to systems that shouldn't have had issues but did and send it to them.

[oblique hollow]

No matter what, the fixed systems should work even after any potential patches

[sand garnet]

famous last words lol

[pallid hornet]

For you, which turbo motor recipe is the best ? For me, it's Turbo Electric Motor because it's the recipe which consume less aluminium, right ?

[wind spade]

it is best indeed

[pallid hornet]

And the best recipe for radio control unit is the one with heat sink right ?

'cause the limiting factor on the game is the aluminium no ?

[topaz hedge]

it can be.. least alumium rcu uses highspeedconnectors... the next best seems to be the radio control unit/system alt, that uses alclad casing and circuitboards

[glacial hemlock]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Power#Resource_consumption

it is not surprising that nuclear power is pretty resource efficient

[frosty owl]

Surprisingly enough... That depends on your end-game goals ^^
If you try to get close to the max pressure cube production possible while adding other space elevator parts to the mix, you may actually need to switch to another RCU recipe just to skimp on the QUARTZ needed :rofl:
(Notice that you can use up a lot of quartz to max out allu ingots production in the first place

Note: the heat sink RCU units is the one that uses most quartz crystal with 12/RCU, the others use just 5 or even 3.3333...

[oblique hollow]

my analysis for ALL possible Aluminium lines

if it didnt use sulfur, I2 would be quite good actually

kinda fun how the best current line is also the biggest

so, Instant Ingots might actually be worth looking into

if you dont need sulfur elsewhere

[bleak coral]

what machines are counted? the whole process or just the aluminum solution & scrap steps?

[oblique hollow]

all machines needed. constructor, refinery, blender, etc

though i always rounded up

since you can only build whole machines

i should probably list the amount of refineries and blenders next to them

[bleak coral]

Instant using sulfur really kills any enthusiasm for it

the only thing it's getting you is less machines total?

[oblique hollow]

also bauxite efficiency

thats why its green

the "best /worst" shows which recipe is best in each usage column

green is the best in each column

[bleak coral]

it's the same efficiency as sloppy/electrode though, and it's basically as many steps so it doesn't feel very "instant"

[oblique hollow]

here, updated numbers. the ones in bracket show refinery and blender total

I2 only needs 1 blender and 1 refinery

and those are both underclocked

if we ever do get more sulfur, this might actually be worth looking into

[bleak coral]

definitely, it's right on the cusp of being resource efficient, and the saved machines is nice

[oblique hollow]

its surprisingly compact

one blender handles basically everything

[bleak coral]

I mean it's the compact version of an already compact setup, aluminum is already really small

which I guess is cool?

[oblique hollow]

except for the SEI setup, thats the biggest one of all alu setups

i did the same analysis for turbo

[bleak coral]

I still stand by the opinion that instant shouldn't have a water byproduct. I feel like it would be in the spirit of the recipe to not need a recycle loop.

[oblique hollow]

and guess what: the most efficient setup for turbo is also the "smallest"

heres the entire I2 setup for 120 ingots / min

[bleak coral]

yeah tiny, and 120 ingots is like nothing now. I'm gonna resetup my aluminum soon and I'm struggling to keep the parts per minute numbers low enough for the storage belts. Like before my 450 bauxite made like 116 alclad sheets, and now I need half that for 100-something of both sheets and casings

[frosty owl]

Imagine making silica in constructors

[oblique hollow]

i mean, you could also go an harvest it from plants if thats your thing

compare these 2: Mk5 Input, 1040 output

if the sulfur was comparably low, it would be worth it

buuut the high need just doesnt quite feel right

if we had more sulfur nodes, then it would be a different story

[bleak coral]

Maybe we will, they do make stuff with an eye for how the game will be in addition to how it is now.

Think of all those oil alts that make way more sense after mk2 pipes and resource wells

[oblique hollow]

id honestly rather use nitric acid here

since nitrogen is a bit more abundant

or simply bump the output of aluminum scrap

that could make it compete with the other recipes

[bleak coral]

maybe, that'd add complexity though cause nitric acid is a blender thing instead of a refinery thing

[oblique hollow]

sulfuric acid does have very little usage cases....

oh, also, it would bump it to tier 8

so its good that it only uses t 7 stuff

[bleak coral]

yeah I like sulfuric acid in it weirdly enough, it just feels like either:
A) it's waiting for more sulfur to exist

or
B) it needs to do more, like not have a water byproduct

[oblique hollow]

the water isnt that bad

it can be fed directly into the sulfuric acid refinery

its 1 to 1

[bleak coral]

oh it isn't, I just think it'd be a cool thing it could do to justify the cost, greatly simplify the setup by removing the recycle loop

[oblique hollow]

this is actually the simplest loop of them all

since the sulfuric acid refinery can run 100% off of the recycled water

[bleak coral]

oh really?

[oblique hollow]

yea

[bleak coral]

huh greeny's calc isn't showing that well

I see it now though

[oblique hollow]

he just loops it back on itself

[bleak coral]

that's weird lol, it doesn't need that much right?

[wind spade]

well it's just assigning resources to where they are missing in no particular order, it doesn't "magically" figure out good usage of resources

[oblique hollow]

acid is 1 to 1

besides, this is for 1040 ingots / min

from 780 bauxite

[bleak coral]

so you just need some seed water to start the process then it feeds itself, that's cool

[oblique hollow]

yeah, thats really neat

funny enough instant scrap is the recipe greeny's tool pulls when you maximize alu on a low scale

[bleak coral]

it switches to sloppy/electrode if you switch off maximize

I think it just gets to instant first during the maximize solution

[oblique hollow]

nvm, he uses it for maximize even with the entirety of bauxite

[bleak coral]

remember maximize only solves for most, not efficient, and instant & sloppy/electrode are equally bauxite efficient

[oblique hollow]

heh, you only need about half of all sulfur to maximize alu xd

[bleak coral]

you don't: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=8QOlhSElVMYQ54VTVv4P

[oblique hollow]

you could

what even is the thing that needs the most sulfur rn? turbo?

[bleak coral]

kinda highlights how bad the sulfur addition is though: half of all sulfur vs 1/10th of all oil for max aluminum

uh nuclear?

I mean yeah there's maybe an argument that sulfur isn't all that precious cause there's not many uses

[oblique hollow]

2100 sulfur for max fuel rods

thats..... kinda cheap

plutonium doesnt need that much sulfuric acid afaik, right?

[muted crypt]

depends on your recipe for turbofuel, I'm producing 3600 turbofuel with only 1800 sulfur

[bleak coral]

hmmm, but if you go nuclear you could theoretically just shut off your turbo plants

[muted crypt]

moar power

[bleak coral]

oh right and batteries for drones

[oblique hollow]

aah yes

[muted crypt]

sulfur cap is 6840/min, right?

[oblique hollow]

ye

[bleak coral]

so sulfur uses:

1. turbofuel
2. nuclear
3. batteries
4. munitions (minor usage, don't need much)
5. aluminum

[muted crypt]

oh is sulfur actually used for aluminum?

[oblique hollow]

instant scrap alt

[muted crypt]

I didn't know the instant scrap recipe was actually good

[bleak coral]

it can be, it's used in instant

[muted crypt]

oh it can be but doesn't have to be

[bleak coral]

that's what we're trying to figure out

[muted crypt]

I see I see

[oblique hollow]

i guess thats the question here: with all things considered, would going for instant scrap be worth it?

[bleak coral]

is the reduction in buildings and complexity ( you win @frosty owl ) worth the sulfur usage?

[oblique hollow]

currently turbo needs 50 sulfur per 100 fuel

[muted crypt]

that'

that's assuming blend

[oblique hollow]

yea

instant scrap is blend too

[muted crypt]

the others are more (normal is 0.8:1, heavy is 1:1)

[oblique hollow]

heres a full turbo list

[muted crypt]

what's the meaning of the colors?

[oblique hollow]

green: most efficient usage of the resource

red: fucking horrible

[muted crypt]

makes sense

[oblique hollow]

its column-wise

[muted crypt]

ahhh I see

[oblique hollow]

normal turbo is actually the worst of them all

[muted crypt]

diluted turbo blend ftw

[oblique hollow]

but heavy uses the most sulfur

[muted crypt]

brb two more rows of generators to hook up before I can work any further on connecting this stuff

I love the fact that I have 600/800 generators hooked up and it shows my capacity is 0 MW because there's nothing on the grid to draw power

[oblique hollow]

i finished my 60 turbofuel gens yesterday

[muted crypt]

60? rookie numbers

[oblique hollow]

270 turbo / min

its a starter for me

was my first dip into some sort of "medium-large" build

9000 MW is nice tho

[muted crypt]

go big or go home

(slightly outdated screenshot)

[oblique hollow]

i never go big on my save

its kinda a minimalist run save

[fierce ruin]

all my factories are on draw io

[oblique hollow]

[bleak coral]

for nuclear it's a little more complicated because it depends on what recipes you use for plutonium, but with default recipes for plutonium it's 226.67 sulfur for 4 uranium rods and 1 plutonium rod, and with all non-fertile recipes it's 246.47 for 4 uranium rods and 1.78 plutonium rods.

both use all alts for uranium rods

[oblique hollow]

i guess the question is: how much do you actually need to invest sulfur into power production

because thats kinda all it does rn

[muted crypt]

produce 1000 nobelisks per minute

[oblique hollow]

only needs 1500 sulfur

[bleak coral]

well that's between 330.88MW and 383.41MW per sulfur for nuclear. So I'd say probably not much unless you're really maxing out the map

[oblique hollow]

that still leaves more than 5000

[bleak coral]

also the big question mark is how much you want to use drones and need to invest in batteries

[oblique hollow]

what would you need 13040 alu ingots / min for?

can you even use that much?

[bleak coral]

max points, but honestly there's very few people who do max anything

[oblique hollow]

lol, according to the calc, you could do 50 uranium fuel rods/min, 1000 nobelisks/min and maximize alu and still have like 600 sulfur left over

honestly? imma say it:
Instant Scrap is a valid and viable alt

im now absolutely gonna make my next alu factory an instant scrap factory

[jolly prism]

If I go nuclear and use the waste to make plutonium to sink (no kept waste) what's the NET power back to my grid?
I know the particle accelerator is a bit power happy, just wondered how much the whole plutonium process added.

[oblique hollow]

if you underclock the particle accelerator, its easily like, quadruble the power back

buuut if you sink them.....

well... nothing gained

a single nuclear power plant needs only like 1 accelerator at 13%

and thats basically no power at all

so really you only lose like 10%

[jolly prism]

just want a "clean" nuke power station, lots of plants with all waste going to make plutonium rods just to sink to eliminate long term waste issues. I think it should be viable 🙂

using a switch room so I have the option to stop minors, sink what's on belts and "make safe" too.

[wind spade]

everything is a viable alt 🤷‍♂️ depends on a purpose 😉

[oblique hollow]

i mean its a valid competitor to the current "best" alt path

[oblique hollow]

this should give you some more info

[jolly prism]

no 'need' just want a new power project.
Turbo fuel is dead, I have a huge fuel gen plant already, along with a few coal gen plants dotted around.... wanted a nice nuclear option.

[oblique hollow]

it really compresses the waste down

125 waste / min translates to 30 pellets / min

[jolly prism]

Wow! nice, it uses lots of waste, looks like it will be perfect 🙂

[oblique hollow]

aaaand that translates to 0.5 plutonium rods / min

so you need like 250 waste / min for 1 plutonium fuel rod / min

[jolly prism]

I should be able to build a decent plant and use waste in "real time" to eventually sink.
Switch room to turn off minor, turn on sink at beginning of factory quickly flushes uranium ore, then wait for the power stations to burn up the last of their fuel and have batteries to power everything to continue to make plutonium rods and sink them.

should be able to shut it down "clean" at the end.

[bleak coral]

it's 200:1 waste:rods with default recipes though...

[oblique hollow]

ah

well, close enough

[bleak coral]

37.5/min waste makes 50 non-fissile x2 = 75 waste + 25 waste for the 30 pellets

[cedar mica]

Is not the easiest ration 2 uranium fuel rods to 1 plutonium fuel rod?

[bleak coral]

4 to 1

[frosty owl]

Question: do you think ceiling lights should have more "range"? I do, and here's why, referred to picture (sorry I didn't get the walkways out of the way first)
At night, this factory gets pretty dark as it's the bottom floor. My idea was to use ceiling lights to light up the beltwork between the manifacturers and walls but... the lights can't reach down there (14m) :
||I moved the lights directly above the conveyors, no difference||

[frosty owl]

Now THAT is convenient

[cedar mica]

So 40 uranium fuel rods, making 2000 waste, into 10 plutonium fuel rods?

[bleak coral]

with default plutonium recipes, ya

[cedar mica]

Thats allowing Satisfactorytools, to choose recipes

Which for some reason includes coke steel... Yes, it might be more efficent, but what are we going to spend coal on, if not steel?

[oblique hollow]

range already got increased

the reason they dont overlap more is because overlapping is performance heavy

[bleak coral]

????? are you just being salty over the tool's recipe choices? the numbers don't change

[sand garnet]

Aluminium?

[cedar mica]

Just saying, I didnt do the math, just allowed the tool to do it and the numbers works, assuming its 2000 waste

[sand garnet]

Tool doesnt care about personal preference, it just calculates based on resource abundance

[frosty owl]

I don't want them to overlap, just to be able to shine to the bottom of a 4 wall high building :
4 walls seems reasonable enough, considering anything more is for refineries (where you could fit the wall lights)

[oblique hollow]

they do reach the bottom

in your case the cone is just not wide enough

[frosty owl]

Check out the "spoiler" part

[frosty owl]

"I moved the lights directly above the conveyors, no difference"
Meaning that even with lights directly above the conveyors, they don't reach

[oblique hollow]

increase brightness? xd

[cedar mica]

Scrap with coke, uses less bauxite, while for steel, coal is better (2:3, instead of 3:4). But guess I will just uncheck coke steel and be done with it

[bleak coral]

but yeah the coke steel being preferred in the tool now is a result of it just measuring weighted resource rarity, and not accounting for what the resource could be used for. So in absolute weighted resource numbers coke steel is better, but I would suspect most would prefer solid steel because steel is the main thing coal is used for. So no point in cutting it out entirely.

[frosty owl]

It's at max

It reaches about 1 wall above

[oblique hollow]

change color values itself?

[frosty owl]

...erm... haven't tried. Is that even a thing? o.O

[sand garnet]

Solid steel is good because you set it up before coke steel

Why overhaul what you already have lol

[bleak coral]

it takes very little oil to make coke, with the HOR alt the ratio for raw resources is actually 0.75:4

oil:ingot

[oblique hollow]

btw, they did update the light stuff. did you reset the optionn in the menu?

[wind spade]

it's pretty hard to come with objective rating of resources 🤷‍♂️

[frosty owl]

Cause with most end-game production plans (i've seen) you can finish coal faster then you finish oil, making coke steel a good choice even just to make more iron products (steel coated plates, steel rods, steel screws)

[frosty owl]

Which option?
This is a screen I took today, btw

[bleak coral]

oh I agree, I think beyond weighted resources it gets subjective really fast. I think it's fine as is and the user just needs to understand how the tool works and make the best decisions for their own factory. there's a reason you added turning individual recipes on and off

[cedar mica]

And thats why its an option to select recipes. Just have to remember to check, when I ask why so much oil is needed, while not seeing coal used at all

[oblique hollow]

light quality option in video settings

what i had before the update vs what i had afterwards

[frosty owl]

I set that to max just in case, bt that's how the screen turned out

Ohh, maybe need a restart even for that?

[wind spade]

I think it would be even better when I add the ability to manually change weights

[frosty owl]

Wait, so they DON'T reach

[oblique hollow]

they did before

but you need to update the options

[cedar mica]

Rebuild the lights. The game updates light distance under weird situations

[frosty owl]

You mean I need to restart the game after changing the quality to ultra or...?

[oblique hollow]

maybe

[frosty owl]

I think I tried already, but I'll try again after restarting 👍

[frosty owl]

The end result was what I posted in #screenshots (B) , so without the walkway in the pic earlier the lights are directly above the conveyors

[cedar mica]

Noticed that when I was messing with glass and lights. The light kept there short light distance even after removing the glass. Had to change color back and forth, to force an update

[oblique hollow]

worked like a charm xd

[frosty owl]

The fact they don't shine through glass is a whole other disappointment I have >.<
I mean, what's the point of placing lights (referring to screenshot, where the beltwork is below the glass) if I still need to turn on the flashlight to be able to see the beltwork through the glass

[oblique hollow]

place lamps inside

[frosty owl]

Too big

[cedar mica]

Guess its a resource saving. Counts glass as walls/foundation, when it comes to light

[frosty owl]

It's just 2 walls high below the glass, same distance to the ceiling as the manifacturer's belts

[oblique hollow]

and they DO shine through

[frosty owl]

To which I agree... but at the same time, it kinda sucks since belt visibility below glass became even worse with lights
Eg: since they don't shine through, even if you place a light just above the glass, visibility worsen as you now have the reflection in the way but the belts are still "dark"

[frosty owl]

Turn them on and off, and they'll stop doing so... ù.ù

[cedar mica]

To be fair, this is the first version of the lights and they didnt know how resource intensive they where

Real world data vs there internal testing data

[oblique hollow]

it seems that the light updates whenever its turned on / off. because WHEN i placed the foundations, the light shape changed.
But when i removed the foundations..... the light didnt shine to the floor again

[cedar mica]

Turn on/off or mess with the light controller. Both makes the light update there draw distance

[frosty owl]

That is fair, and it makes me think I should try pushing for this on the QA. It might be doable, considering it doesn't need to affect too much transparency at once (thanks to LOD)

[oblique hollow]

they totally could shine through, but the updating is wonky

time to @ Ben

[cedar mica]

In other words, current lights care about build order. Also does it update on load?

[oblique hollow]

good question

[frosty owl]

I'll get back to this next time I load the save (and the game should load with max settings on too this time)

[oblique hollow]

buuut anyway, did this fix your short range lights?

besides the glass thing, of course

[frosty owl]

I'll check after I restart so... next time I boot up the game (probably later on)

I don't usually Discord in game since it tanks performances

[oblique hollow]

ive just glanced over some more alts, and heat fused frame is a bit odd

you invest more nitrogen and fuel so you consume less aluminum

[static rock]

Hey guys!

So quick question bout the power changes to U4
I know the changes burn fuel at 100% no matter the power requirements, but does that really include if there is 0 power consumption?

[iron prairie]

If they are hooked up to a grid, they consume resources.

[static rock]

Dude...
So the only way to backlog a system is to manually disconnect each individual gen

thats dumb af

[iron prairie]

So: if they have no power connections, they can fill up their buffers. You may also be able to set them to standby: I haven't tested that.

[static rock]

yeah but at a large scale? Thats gross

[iron prairie]

This is why I have gotten into the habit of building everything but the power lines first.

[wind spade]

well resources are infinite, so not sure why should it matter that they are being burned for power 🤷‍♂️

[static rock]

i get that but youd think that if there is no power consumption at all they wouldnt need to turn on.
I do appreciate the nuances of the new system and managing it but this sucks.

[iron prairie]

I think the complaint is "it's hard to pre-fill a manifold without individually disabling a bunch of machines".

[static rock]

Oh the fact they burn at 0 consumption means my power plant is burning at like 250% production capacity.
I built my powerplant larger than my production cause under the old system i didnt burn more fuel until i actually connected the floors meaning i could set everything up and add floors as neeed

Now instead i need to go through everything and disconnect floors via... Well the pipe mains i guess

[iron prairie]

You can just cut the power to those floors.

[static rock]

Well the gens still get connected to the grid ON those floors.
Meaning they still burn even at 0 consumption, hence my grumbling

[iron prairie]

Ah, right, briefly forgot.

[static rock]

Urggggggh thats dumb

[iron prairie]

That said, there is a QA site where you might be able to suggest "power plants should not consume resources if there is zero load".

[shadow prairie]

You can send Questions, Feedback, Suggestions, and Bug Reports at https://questions.satisfactorygame.com

<3 @iron prairie

[static rock]

was actually heading there now 😛
Thanks for booping the bot though

[frosty owl]

You can cut off the flow with valves to stop the generators and add some buffers in strategic places to help the manifold fill up when you need to have them run again (eg: add a buffer at the END of a manifold, let it fill up, use that to help refill the manifold when needed

[static rock]

Thats my plan atm.
1 valve / 9 fuel gens is easier than 162 standby switches hahaha
Still a bit annoying 😕
Thanks for the suggestion though!

[rapid edge]

Any suggestion on the pipework? I'm literally too dumb to find a way to place the belts/pipes in a way they don't block each other on both sides

[oblique isle]

Stack the belts on top of each other, then above the splitters, throw the piplines above each other.

[signal nimbus]

Just checking some math here: a single maxed Uranium node will produce 180 GW, correct?

600 Uranium : 480 Encased Uranium Cells (Infused Uranium Cell) : 14.4 Uranium Fuel Rods (Uranium Fuel Unit) : 72 Nuclear Power Plants : 180,000 MW ?

[eager raft]

I've got a question about the new power changes to U4, specifically with how to deal with fluid networks running at 100% all the time. I am making 1600 turbo blend fuel per minute, divided into 3 pipes at about 533.3 m3 per minute. These go to 3 floors of fuel generators, each with 59 fuel generators overclocked to exactly 246.266%, yielding 300 MW per generator. the fuel consumption per floor is 531, yet there are generators that are perpetually empty. I have a large buffer at the start of each floor, and I filled each up before connecting the power lines to each generator.

really not sure how to fix the issue to get all the generators to function properly. Overall its a somewhat trivial in terms of the fluctuation of power being generated, but it's annoying that I can't get the math to work out in game

[muted crypt]

Non-biomass generators consume resources as if power draw is at 100% always now

[frosty owl]

Easy solution: have a buffer at the END of each floor too, and fill that up before starting the generators, then let it help out oversaturating the pipe network

5 buffers per floor work too

[iron prairie]

Do be aware that with turbofuel, manifolds can take a long time to fill up.

I recommend using standby (or not plugging them into power) to let the internal buffers fill up.

[eager raft]

I've tried that method, letting all of the manifold fill up before connecting any of the generators to power, but given enough time, I get red generator outages at the same places in the manifold

seems to be some sort of flow issue I don't understand

[iron prairie]

Mkay, that indicates to me that there's either a transportation or production failure somewhere.

To rule out a production failure very quickly: check your oil extractors. Are they running at 100%?

[frosty owl]

Use that in conjunction with the buffering I suggested. The issue (probably) is that there is not enough fluid in the pipes to buffer for the fluctuations in fluid needs (maybe generators were at 49/50 full and that can be enough to empty the pipe and have the last gens in the row starve for a while)
Though, a distribution issue can't be ruled out yet ^^

[cedar mica]

There has been talk about pipe manafolds behaving weird, once you reach a certain amount of splits

So maybe running 2x 300 pipes, instead of 1x 600, would solve the issue

[iron prairie]

That... really shouldn't matter, though. The earlier machines in the manifold will sip small amounts of turbofuel, and each individual pipe section won't be losing much per second.

[eager raft]

I will try adding in more buffers

[iron prairie]

Overall: I'd trace backwards from the failing generators.

Is there fluid in the pipes?
Are the turbofuel blenders/refineries running at 100%?
Are the fuel refineries running at 100%?
Are the extractors running at 100%?

[frosty owl]

If the gens aren't fully loaded when the system starts, I can see the last ones in the row starving eventually, with that little overflow/min

[cedar mica]

Turn of first in split and see if a failing one, starts running. Thats tells if its a production issue or a pipe issue

[iron prairie]

And, for that matter, is there a hidden section of T1 pipe where there should be T2 pipe?

[iron prairie]

He's reported starting from completely full internal buffers & pipes.

[frosty owl]

My bad, must've missed that

[oblique hollow]

loop the pipes

that solves like 99% of the problems

[eager raft]

the blenders making turbo fuel are running at 100%, there are 14 of them running at 250% (112.5 m3 per minute each_, with one running at 26 m3 per minute

[frosty owl]

Just double all the pipes to halve the flow

||Sarcasm disclaimer||

[rigid fog]

"Egon, this reminds me of that time you tried to drill a hole in your head."

Wait, no that's not what I wanted to say.

Egon, I'm working up to that too. Got 4 online now. But I want to do plutoniuim first.

[oblique hollow]

i always will recommend doing this

[rigid fog]

^^ I endorse thsi

[eager raft]

at the halfway point between the 5th and 6th machines, there are valves that limit the flow in either direction, so that the overflow can pass to the other line,

I had tried to set these to the exact values I wanted flowing in each direction, rounded up a bit to allow for extra flow, but the machines dont produce continually, so that wont work

so 2 fuel lines are taking 5 and a bit full blender outputs, and 1 fuel line gets the extra bit, plus the underclocked blender making 26m3 a minute

[oblique hollow]

heres a cutout of the pipes leading to my turbofuel gens

[eager raft]

In terms of pipes, the manifold is looped back on itself, and I've tried a number of configurations. I tried making the manifold a continutious S shape that fed all 6 columns of generators, I had it branch out and feed all 6

[oblique hollow]

270/min turbo

[frosty owl]

You need some buffering to have that split work properly, else the flow fluctuates left/right without splitting the way you want

[oblique hollow]

honestly, just remove the valves

i had systems with valve and they instantly improved once i removed the valves and it just balanced itself

[eager raft]

if I remove the valves I run into the 600m3 per minute limitation of mk2 pipes

since they share a pipe

[oblique hollow]

just try it

[iron prairie]

At least in theory, once the pipe gets overloaded one way, the fluid has no choice but to go the other way.

[oblique hollow]

☝️

[eager raft]

true

I was thinking that that should eventuallly happen with the valves on the 6th machines

since eventually they should balance the network out if they are overproducing, and there are buffers at the start of each floor

[oblique hollow]

valves are wonky

[eager raft]

I'll let this run for a few hours and see what happens

and I will add the rear buffer like was suggested, thanks guys

[plucky sail]

Does any one have a good resource for a starting petrochemical setup?

[gusty nexus]

as in without any alternate recipes?

then you just run 2 refineries per 60 crude oil being produced, alternating making rubber and plastic, and turn all the heavy oil residue into fuel

when positioning each "layer" of the refineries (i.e. the refineries processing the crude oil, leading into the refineries working with its byproducts), leave yourself at least one foundation's worth of space between them

[frail escarp]

Maybe 2, just to give yourself a little wiggle room.

[plucky sail]

Yeh without recipes at the moment, ok cool thanks

[bleak coral]

also since you won't have fuel generators to start, you'll actually want to turn that HOR into petro coke and then put it in an awesome sink or burn it in coal generators

[iron prairie]

Once you do get fuel generators (which, as a warning, cost HMFs and computers), residual fuel is slightly more efficient than petrocoke -> coal generators, plus being more compact and simpler.

[frosty owl]

Anyone experienced or heard about weird light issues (light not shining through glass or not reaching far enough)?

[umbral harbor]

Not sure if this is a better question for here or the question section, but would. 5900x CPU have more consistent performance than a 5600x since it has twice as many cores and a slight clock advantage? I know it's been said that CPUs with lots of core don't tend to provide much more uplift, but could it provide better consistency?

[bleak coral]

doubtful, 5600x is already really good and having extra cores isn't going to make the game use 'em

[signal nimbus]

Technically yes, actually. IF you can get a notably higher clock speed on the CPU, which is technically possible because they bin those parts a lot higher. Practically, however: no. Your bottleneck is going to be the speed/quantity of your RAM/memory, as well as the speed of the drive you're playing the game on.

I'll add your GPU to that list, actually.

[bleak coral]

Yeah this game likes good hardware all around, wouldn't say it taxes anything in particular

[signal nimbus]

...yeah, actually, now that I think about it.

[bleak coral]

Sticking to 1080p and having a high-end card is probably the only way to make the GPU not a bottleneck, and that seems a bit of a waste

[signal nimbus]

Mhm. I have a pretty mid-tier system, and with optimized graphics I'm starting to hit lag spikes in my main factory.

Modest Tier 6 starter base, nothing too insane.

[bleak coral]

I get 60s a lot, but there's trouble spots all over the map that make it dip into the 30s and 40s, including parts of my factory. I've messed with the settings, but honestly they don't really help. I just think my 970 is showing its age.

The problem is I keep running out of VRAM, and that's true for pretty much any game I have problems with.

[signal nimbus]

Two things I did that helped: turn off hyperthreading, and let NVidia optimize my graphics.

Surprised the heck out of me when it maxed my graphics and I got better fps...

[bleak coral]

What do you mean turned off hyperthreading? Like completely or just disabled it for Satisfactory?

[signal nimbus]

Completely. I have to turn it back on for other things, but that takes me from a bit choppy to smooth.

...I think I can reliably explain why that helps in factory terms if you want.

[bleak coral]

I vaguely get forcing it to use physical cores instead of simultaneous multi-threading could be a boost. It's hungry for resources and making it share more than it has to probably doesn't help

[signal nimbus]

Mhm. The factory version is that hyperthreading is like two Mk 2 belts instead of 1 Mk 3 belt when it's off. You can move more kinds of items simultaneously, but sometimes you just need to push 270 ipm.

[bleak coral]

Do you have an intel or AMD chip?

[signal nimbus]

AMD.

Ryzen 7 3700X

[bleak coral]

Oh exactly the same as me

hmmm, not sure I want to turn it off for just one game

[signal nimbus]

Ryzen Master makes it as easy as two profiles and a reboot.

Also lets you turn on PBO pretty easily and tweak your memory speed.

[bleak coral]

I wish there was a way to tell it "hey this program needs it's threads on different cores"

or for the program to do that

[signal nimbus]

Same, but that really does need to happen at the BIOS level, so... hitting a button and rebooting is about as good as we're going to get.

[umbral harbor]

How important is having hyperthreading on in general? Like would I really notice turning it off in non-gaming applications if I mostly just play Satisfactory and have Spotify or YouTube on in the background?

[bleak coral]

the thing is it helps in some games, so it's not like a simple "this will help gaming" kind of thing

it's very game-specific whether it helps, hurts, or does nothing, and most of the time the difference is like 1% or something

I'd definitely not leave it off, the processor was intended to perform mutlitasking best with it on

[loud heron]

Jesus christ

First aluminum factory weve made

and for 4 materials, the setup for a 240 ingot facility is surprisingly small

Best part is how it self recycles

I dont know how

But im getting overflow of aluminum ingots

despite the foundries making 240 and these 4 assemblies using 240

[deep root]

"Invisible rounding"

[upbeat pollen]

Is the Instant Scrap recipe any good? Comparing it to regular foundry recipe + electrode alumunium scrap seems like its just trading out 78 crude oil for 520 coal

doesn't really feel worth it but i might be missing something

[supple mural]

one word

sulfur

[oblique hollow]

i did an analysis of that yesterday. its as efficient as a combination of the current best alu alt recipes

aaaaand its unlikely that you will run out of sulfur, even if you maximize aluminium production

its the smallest setup for alu possible

Heres a chart.
How to read: the top row shows usage of resources per 120 alu ingots/min
Each column is the overall usage of that resource per row of recipe
Coloring: green is efficient usage, red is bad

[oblique hollow]

i did consider this too. but with the right recipes, sulfur isnt even a bottleneck

like, max aluminum barely even uses half of all sulfur on the map

and not even nuclear uses that much

[bleak coral]

I'm still wary because of the X factor: batteries. You could spend none or lots of sulfur on batteries depending on how much you like drones.

[oblique hollow]

this is where balancing comes back into play

assuming we did max nuclear and alu and some nobelisk stuff, we have around 900 sulfur / min left over

[supple mural]

huh, really

[oblique hollow]

thats enough for..... around 600 batteries / min

[supple mural]

that sounds like more than enough for lots of drones

[oblique hollow]

yeah

so.... sulfur isnt actually all that limiting

if you tap into all nodes, that is

but im barely even using one node

so im definitely gonna go for an instant alu factory next

[supple mural]

i c

[oblique hollow]

alu is needed a lot in the higher tiers and its more limited than sulfur, and unless you actually try to maximize everything, its unlikely you will run into bottlenecking

[bleak coral]

actually with the new bauxite nodes sulfur is now rarer than bauxite

but the point does still stand that everything in T8 wants aluminum, and a lot of T7 too

whereas sulfur is just power, batteries, and munitions besides aluminum

and you don't actually need that much sulfur for batteries for drones

that's what I'm hearing at least

[oblique hollow]

45 / 50 sulfur per min for 30 / 20 batteries per min, respectively

[bleak coral]

each drone needs between 5 and 10 batteries per min right?

[deft lichen]

4 per trip +1 per km

[muted crypt]

is that round trip distance for the +1 per km, or is that one-way? I'd assume the former, but who tf knows

[frosty owl]

@oblique hollow I figured out the light bug. Now I can finally post good screenshots

[oblique hollow]

ery good

[versed violet]

Did you include power usage compariosn, out of curiosity?

[idle tinsel]

hey guys, im running some nuclear reactors and they keep running out of water for some reason. the water extractors are overclocked to 300 water/min , two of them go to one mk2 pipe then that pipe splits in two reactors, have pumps and stuff, no buffers, anyone knows?

[bleak coral]

just checked real quick, and instant does need more power

[mossy pike]

I've seen the same, but haven't spent much time to solve it, figured I need to let them standby for a bit to fill up first and then they'll run well. Are yours also feed water from below (i.e reactor input is also highest point of the pipe)?

[idle tinsel]

yeah, waters down, reactors up around 30 ft , the pumps do the job no problem

[muted crypt]

max throughput on pipes can be rough because of rounding issues

try using two separate mk2 pipes, one per reactor, and see if that fixes anything

generally speaking you don't want to be consuming at max throughput

[mossy pike]

what will cost my sanity more, fixing pipes for 164 reactors or underclocking them all to like 95~98%

[muted crypt]

I think knowingly putting yourself below 100% would cost you more.

[uncut pine]

so is turbofuell worth it now? or can i skip that?^^

[muted crypt]

I'd argue both turbofuel and nuclear are worth it.

Nuclear has a lot more processing involved, and as such, has higher power output.

[idle tinsel]

well i have only 48 right now, i can try to fix it with more pipes, no problem, but i dont really know. @mossy pike the stanby solution works for a long time? or at some point they will come over the same problem?

[uncut pine]

okay nice 🙂 any alternate recipe for turbofuell for using?

[muted crypt]

this is what I personally am using in my turbofuel setup I finished yesterday:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/835944123549876265/835944377121505280/unknown.png

required resources per unit of turbofuel:

normal:
- 0.45 crude oil 
- 1.2 water
- 0.8 coal 
- 0.8 sulfur

heavy:
- 0.938 crude oil 
- 1 coal 
- 1 sulfur 

blend:
- 0.75 crude oil 
- 0.333 water 
- 0.5 sulfur

Blend uses more crude oil than normal, but no coal, less sulfur and less water.

However, since they added 1800 more crude to the max cap per minute with update 4, I'd say that added crude usage is worth it.

[uncut pine]

thank you!

[muted crypt]

what I find interesting is that you could do that exact setup I provided AND max nuclear and still have enough sulfur for your nobelisks and rifle ammo.

[uncut pine]

😄

[mossy pike]

batteries are for chumps, we got nuclear

[muted crypt]

that setup above: 1800 sulfur
max nuclear: I think somewhere around 3100 sulfur
max sulfur/min on the map: 6840

if anyone who has been looking more into the max nuclear math and would like to verify that number that'd be great

[uncut pine]

so, for reinforced iron plates, iron wire and stitched iron plates recipes?

[muted crypt]

for resource efficiency, yes.

[uncut pine]

so, how i make this then with the numbers after the , ?

round up or down?

[versed violet]

Start by limiting iron input to even number (what you have)

[muted crypt]

underclock

[mossy pike]

Question on the Non-fissile U alt "Fertile Uranium". It produces same amount of water as its consumable needs (15 N.acid, 25 S.acid -> 40 water). Can I (and should I) rely on the water to circulate, or will rounding errors come and bite me in the rear?

[versed violet]

Add sideways buffer, prefill to half and observe if it goes up/down?

[mossy pike]

was basically what I had in mind, just as in-line buffer that I would pre-fill before turning on.

[wind spade]

you can underclock machines to match the percentage as well

[uncut pine]

yes!^^ this option was never in my head 🙂 thanks you again for this^^

[wind spade]

for example 3.86 machines means 3 machines at 100% and one machine at 86%

[magic shadow]

or 386 machines at 1%

[wind spade]

yeah 🙂

[mossy pike]

ultra low power build

[magic shadow]

ultra low fps build too lmao

[uncut pine]

^^

[versed violet]

Sideways. Inline will start sloshing, sideways "should" even it out

[versed violet]

two machines at 193%

[mossy pike]

Fluid mechanics in a nutshell, was hoping valves before and after would solve the sloshing issue. I'll do the sideways one.

[versed violet]

games are poor reality simulators, unless you're playing Unverse sandbox or the like

[bleak coral]

I have seen several youtube videos that demonstrate universe sandbox has limits lol

usually hilarious limits when you do stupid shit

[versed violet]

Realtime simulations are limited by hardware capability

The only accurate realtime simulation of universe I know is The Universe

[oblique hollow]

its simply unreliable because buffers mess with pressure

parallel buffers is always better than serial

with the exception of large pipe manifolds, all other aspects work pretty alright

aaaand the occasional funny bug

Mk 2 Pipe to Heaven, Abused Valves, Wall Holes eating Head Lift.....

[topaz hedge]

I see you didn't really get an answer for this, by far the most reliable way, is to use the byproduct water in wet concrete for encased cells. and give your sulfuric and nitric acid their own freshwater supply

[loud heron]

Remind me, its 2 engines for every 3 freight cars right

[oblique hollow]

4

2 for every 4

[loud heron]

Thanks

[bleak coral]

So what's the advantage to fertile uranium? It's not an efficient use of uranium ore, does it decrease other resource usage?

[oblique hollow]

hmmm

no silica? xd

[loud heron]

Replaces silica

Reduses Nitric and sulfur

[oblique hollow]

it saves on sulfuric acid too

[loud heron]

I dunno if this is more power per plutonium tho

[oblique hollow]

also 25 waste is a steal

gotta figure out that raw uranium tho....

[bleak coral]

I did, given an amount of uranium ore you get less power if you go the fertile route

[loud heron]

I guess its purely just trading power to save on a resource.

[bleak coral]

you do end up decreasing the uranium rods you need to make so all the resources there (besides uranium) are decreased, though you end up making more plutonium rods

I guess I need to get the numbers for given an amount of power what are the raw resources usage of both systems look like

[oblique hollow]

it seems to be comparatively uranium efficient, actually

[bleak coral]

it's not

[oblique hollow]

ah, i ran my math for the wrong thing

[bleak coral]

gotcha

the split for uranium ore btw is 5/11 to uranium rods and 6/11 to plutonium rods

that results in 0 uranium waste

btw it's less uranium efficient compared to instant + fuel unit, I haven't looked at the others

I did that comparison cause instant + fuel unit is the most efficient use of waste so it gets most power

[topaz hedge]

too bad there's not a way to make non fissle directly from uranium. skip the whole uranium chain and jump straight into that sweet plutonium powa XD

[bleak coral]

that'd be broken ha

[loud heron]

Isnt plutonium supposed to be less efficient than uranium anyways

[topaz hedge]

it was. now it's 2x the powa

[loud heron]

Coffee made it twice as efficient???

[bleak coral]

nah, they shuffled some numbers around to make it more powerful per rod, but we make less rods

[topaz hedge]

increased the energy in a plutonium fuel rod by a factor of 4

[bleak coral]

during experimental

[signal nimbus]

It's a trap.

[topaz hedge]

but yeah, that made it so we have 4x less rods lol

[bleak coral]

it's literally was just a "it feels good" change lol

[loud heron]

Makes lil sense imo but I guess it works lol

As long as its more convenient gameplay wise

[bleak coral]

I mean they decreased the waste too, cause the way they handled the numbers made it so it effectively halved waste

[loud heron]

Plutonium breeders are supposed to be recyclers of uranium byproduct, not an an alternative

[bleak coral]

yeah their job is to decrease waste and make extra power, and they do that

[signal nimbus]

My honest opinion is that it's not worth it to do plutonium when you can have clean uranium.

[bleak coral]

I disagree completely, you're giving up a lot of power to do that

if you hate waste go for it, but waste is not actually a big deal

[signal nimbus]

...I'll listen. How much waste does plutonium power produce?

[bleak coral]

1 waste per minute per plant

so 10 waste per rod or per 25,000MW

[oblique hollow]

1 rod produces 10 waste, ya

[signal nimbus]

Mkay... grabbing numbers...

[bleak coral]

remember ISCs store 24,000 waste each

[signal nimbus]

10 per rod, 3.6 from the inefficient line... okay, 36 per minute isn't bad.

[oblique hollow]

100 minutes of 2500 MW for 10 waste

is one way to see it

[bleak coral]

yeah the less efficient you are with the uranium waste, the better reduction you get. it's a tradeoff so you can adjust to how much waste you're comfortable with

[signal nimbus]

Mkay... checking more numbers.

[bleak coral]

even the least efficient waste reprocessing line nets you ~50% more power though, and reduces waste to 5% what it was before

[signal nimbus]

Hmm... that would put my design up to 270 GW, and be viable as a later expansion if needed. All right, I'll keep that in mind.

[oblique hollow]

Also, if the waste ever bothers you, sacrifice a doggo xd

[loud heron]

We live and die by your orders, boss

[topaz hedge]

... or other more secret waste removal methods that can remove containers full of waste.

[bleak coral]

Of course the smart play is to setup the waste storage and power plants, but sink the plutonium until you need the power.

[signal nimbus]

Mhm.

[loud heron]

Clearly we just wait until Tier 12 where we just send it into an infinite pocket dimension building or something

[bleak coral]

That way you have a bunch of power you can just flip a switch (figuratively) on to get, but aren't building up waste in the meantime

[topaz hedge]

before they did the "feels good" balance my powerplant was producing ~1.2 million points a min.. now it makes like 350k lol

probably why they made those changes.. they felt like it was too rewarding to have clean nuclear lol

[oblique hollow]

How much waste and how much power would a full Plutonium Rod Stack yield?

[supple mural]

at least three

[oblique hollow]

[supple mural]

isnt it two waste per minute and each rod goes for ten minutes?

[oblique hollow]

10 waste per rod

And yes, 10 minutes

[supple mural]

so that would be 500 then?

[topaz hedge]

a full stack of 50? could be wrong but... 20,833 MWh and 500 waste

[oblique hollow]

So 1 stack per stack.... Neat

[muted crypt]

so I've never actually messed with uranium stuff before, and I wanna make sure I have these steps correct:

Uranium -> Encased Uranium Cells -> Uranium Fuel Rod -> Uranium Waste -> Non-fissile Uranium -> Plutonium Pellets -> Encased Plutonium Cell -> Plutonium Fuel Rod -> Plutonium Waste

[oblique hollow]

Yea

[loud heron]

How do I do overflow pipes

[oblique hollow]

Gravity

[topaz hedge]

and it should power ~8 reactors for an hour

[loud heron]

I got 1166 Alumina Solution toprocess, but clearly each machine does not make a perfect 300

[supple mural]

or 50 reactors for 10 minutes lel

[topaz hedge]

(where the 20833MWh comes from)

[loud heron]

So I need one of them to slightly overfill one pipe before moving onto another

How do I accomplish this?

[topaz hedge]

Well, the man asked how much power so. XD

[topaz hedge]

Choices were... 500 reactors for 1 miunte, 50 for 10. or reduce it to MWh xD

[oblique hollow]

8 m means 8 m vertically up

[supple mural]

how about 123904823749876 reactors for .00000002345435 seconds

i think thats the most relevant value here

[topaz hedge]

sure why not.

[supple mural]

im procrastinating doing my homeowkr by saying dumb things online

[oblique hollow]

Seconds per Frame per Stack of Fuel Rods xd

[oblique hollow]

:c bad!
Go do homework

[supple mural]

ok

[loud heron]

https://puu.sh/HBs2U/c8b8b466aa.png

Liek that?

[oblique hollow]

Should work. Blue is the overflow line

[loud heron]

yes

[oblique hollow]

If you worry about pressure, put a pump before the junction and 8m bump

And dont worry, it doesnt change the setup

It will still work as expected

[loud heron]

Yeah pipes work really weirdly imo

Im guessing on a junction that points up and forward

liquid will bias forward before up

[oblique hollow]

Yes

Gravity takes priority

[loud heron]

Well, pipes dont work weirdly, they work realistically, but realism and games dont always mix

[oblique hollow]

Its a half mix

[loud heron]

so i gotta ask lol.
that and conveyers defy gravity

[oblique hollow]

Everything defies gravity

..... Except liquid in pipes

[topaz hedge]

*mostofthetime

[oblique hollow]

*allofthetimeexceptwhenyouscrewitup

[loud heron]

WhicheverIsAwkwardForYou

[uncut pine]

is the alternate copper motor recipe worth it?

[oblique hollow]

You mean copper rotor?

[uncut pine]

yes ^^ sry

[oblique hollow]

Im more a fan of steel rotor

Buut it doesnt seem too bad

But copper sheets do need more constructors for the right amount / min

[uncut pine]

hm oki^^ and thanks for your pipeline guide on reddit, i like it!

[wind spade]

copper rotor is great

(resource-wise)

[oblique hollow]

I never used it, but it does seem quite ok

[wind spade]

ofc you lose the advantage of making both rotors and stators out of the same things

[supple mural]

how does copper rotor compare to steel rotor?

[regal canopy]

that's the reason I liked to use it

[oblique hollow]

It uses copper sheets and screws

[muted crypt]

okay it's time for me to stare at numbers until I can make sense of it all, see you guys tonight

[supple mural]

i mean, resource wise which uses more

[oblique hollow]

22.5 sheets amd 195 screws for 11.25 rotors

Which is very iron efficient

[wind spade]

technically best way to make rotors (lowest resource cost):

[oblique hollow]

Aaand maybe copper too

[wind spade]

non-steel copper rotors

[muted crypt]

damn you cut out almost 20 iron by adding in a little over 7 coal

[wind spade]

normal rotors

steel rotors

pick whatever suits you best 😉

[supple mural]

wow

[uncut pine]

thank you^^

[supple mural]

that first one big wins

but screws...

[uncut pine]

never use water to make pure ingots

[wind spade]

(if you want to do stuff yourselves, check the tool I used https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production )

[uncut pine]

yes i use it since you released it 😉

[solar pond]

normal rotors just way more resource efficient

[wind spade]

you can pick any combination of recipes and it'll try to find most optimal way 🙂

[uncut pine]

but never know whats alternate recipes are good and which bad

[loud heron]

Is there an easy way to tell how much headlift I got

[wind spade]

you can pick all you have and the tool will choose those that are resource efficient

[oblique hollow]

Pump lul.

[wind spade]

I think the copper ones are way more efficient, look at the coal usage

[solar pond]

never thought about going back to using the default screw recipe because the steel rod recipe is so efficient before though

[oblique hollow]

Refineries and such really need a freaking Head Lift gauge

[signal nimbus]

Pump or tower.

[loud heron]

I was hoping like how many conveyer stacks or something

[wind spade]

steel rod + normal screw is pretty much the same efficient as steel screw (just slightly more efficient than the steel screw), so can be replaced with that

[loud heron]

but this is fine

[signal nimbus]

I recommend tower, itll save on electricity.

[solar pond]

steel screw cranks out at silly speed though and thats nice

[oblique hollow]

The default refinery pressure is 10 m, and thats around 4 stacked pipe supports

[umbral harbor]

Right, so I have the aforementioned 5600x, but then GPU wise I have a 3070, then I have 32 Gbs of 3600 Mhz RAM and the game is installed on a NVME M.2 drive. So, aside from having a 3070 instead of a 3080, I have a pretty top tier rig. I'm happy with my FPS, I'm usually always around 120, but I haven't finished my current factory, so everything is off. I know there will be framerate changes once everything is running, so I'm mostly trying to make sure I have consistency down the line. If it get down to 60 fps, that's fine, but I'd like it to be a consistent 60, y'know?

[wind spade]

@solar pond steel rod + normal screws

[solar pond]

i think all buildings with a liquid output have a default pressure of 10m

[wind spade]

steel screws

[loud heron]

Second question, how to get rid of excess water from an aluminum facility

[wind spade]

use it somewhere else or loop it back to the aluminum facility

[loud heron]

Wont the alumina refinery back up cause theres nowhere for the water to go

[solar pond]

thats a pretty marginal difference for the speed you get out of steel screws

[loud heron]

Once the pipe is full

[wind spade]

usually when people do this they have separated refineries for the loopbacked water

[solar pond]

why would the pipe be full. set your refinerys to consume exactly the output

[signal nimbus]

@umbral harbor Dear person who managed to find those parts and then afford them: you'll be fine. Throwing money at the problem won't help in this case.

[uncut pine]

@wind spade have you a paypal link on the homepage? 🙂

[loud heron]

The sloppy alumina recipe and the refinery to make scraps do not match in water usage/output

[wind spade]

click the community link on top right, there's paypal and patreon

[loud heron]

https://puu.sh/HBsjt/26038d7ab3.png

[solar pond]

@loud heron thats what up and down clocking is for

[loud heron]

Then theres not enough alumina to keep the water 1:1

[umbral harbor]

I just got super lucky a couple of times. Nabbed the 5600x in a bundle before Newegg changed their policy on returns, and nabbed the 3070 right after the tariff stuff happened, so I think enough people balked at the price increase for me to rush through.

I was more curious at this point about getting the most out of what I have. Maybe overclocking the RAM or changing the hyperthreading settings

[wind spade]

I don't really like putting the links in popups or similar. Hinders user's experience

[loud heron]

as you can see there, balancing any part of that recipe is near impossible due to the fact that if I process more bauxite, I make more water, and if I process scrap faster, I run out of alumina solution for it to process and it backs up anyways

[wind spade]

tho I'll probably put them in a more descriptive menu, like "support the project" or "buy me a coffee"

[loud heron]

links?

[signal nimbus]

Your ram should be overclocked from the factory. If it says anything higher than "2400" or "2666" for its speed, they already overclocked it.

[wind spade]

was in response to Jeardius' question about paypal/patreon links

[signal nimbus]

Turn hyperthreading off for this game, though.

[umbral harbor]

No point to using the Ryzen Master or whatever AMDs RAM program is to push the RAM a little further beyond XMP?

[wind spade]

maybe hardware discussions could go to #off-topic-tech 🤔

[loud heron]

^

[signal nimbus]

No prob.

[loud heron]

I still really need help with excess water

[umbral harbor]

I thought this counted as Meta regarding game performance, my bad

[wind spade]

find any process that needs water (pure ingots/whatever), put the water there

[loud heron]

I suppose I could send the extra water to an ingot facility or something

Too bad we cant just sink water lol

[wind spade]

gives a bit of complexity to late-game recipes I guess

[solar pond]

@loud heron just use all the water from the output then set your water pumps to supply the rest

[loud heron]

Im making 186 extra water

[uncut pine]

@wind spade , so how i can split the iron ingots with the amount what i need to get into the foundrys and constructers? hope you understand ^^

[loud heron]

this is not gunna go well

[loud heron]

Thats the point though Im making back more water than the pumps themselves combine into

186 m3 extra water just form the loop of alumina to scrap

[topaz hedge]

how much excess water? small amounts <240 can be delt with via 1 limestone node, and 1 awesome sink, and 1 refinery making wet concrete

[oblique hollow]

You just let it overflow

[wind spade]

usually people just do manifolds

or you can figure out how many machines you need to produce 300 ingots

[loud heron]

This makes sense.
Ill see if theres anything nearby

[wind spade]

and send it to the steel factory

and rest of the machines send to the other factory

[solar pond]

how can you be making extra water

the output is less than the input

[topaz hedge]

but! if it's best to figure out how to use valves, and get it to work, because larger lategame setups produce too much waste water to just deal with in that mannor

[loud heron]

https://puu.sh/HBsjt/26038d7ab3.png

As you can see the scrap refineries return more water than the pump themselves combined

The sloppy alumina recipe be awkward

[oblique hollow]

Excess? From what. Aluminum?

[solar pond]

4.65 refineries of sloppy alumina consumes 930 water

[loud heron]

Wait

[solar pond]

4.65 refineries of scrap outputs 558 water

[loud heron]

Is greeny's tool telling me that the return water is making up the rest of it?

[solar pond]

yes

[loud heron]

It was not obvious to me lol

I thought the system said it only takes 372 water to start lol

[oblique hollow]

Greenys tells you how much fresh water you need.

[solar pond]

the out put is 558 and the pumps are supplying the missing 372

[loud heron]

Gotcha

[oblique hollow]

The feedback water is already taken into account

[loud heron]

Thanks guys, very confusing to me

[solar pond]

no process outputs more water than goes in

that would be an infinite loop

[loud heron]

water generator

[oblique hollow]

More like perpetuum mobile

But an actual one, with water

[wind spade]

yeah, this confused a few people already. Though not sure how to make it better

for me it was pretty clear when I made it, but I guess that's the classic "I made the tool so it looks good for me"

[loud heron]

Maybe somehow make the water input from pumps tie into the <--->?

[wind spade]

the library I use to make the graphs doesn't support that and also would be pretty hard to make it work with the ability to move the nodes

[oblique hollow]

Hmm

You could add a "fresh water" tag or something

[loud heron]

Extra water

[oblique hollow]

So its clear that this is the new / extra you need to supply

[wind spade]

if I'll make changes in this, I'd like to make them generic, not just for this specific loop

[oblique hollow]

And add "recycled" to the feedback water

[loud heron]

I mean its hard to tell without distinguishing the two conditions regardless.

[oblique hollow]

Recycled and Fresh works for anything

[wind spade]

because if new loop like this appears in U5, I'd like to have it ready for it

[oblique hollow]

Acid, plastic, Rubber, Water, canisters, etc

[wind spade]

recycled recycled plastic

xD

[oblique hollow]

Yeah. Recycled plastic is the machine and recipe node and "Plastic (Recycled)" is the item arrow

Same works for water and Acid and canisters

[wind spade]

fresh biomass

[oblique hollow]

Just so people know "ah, this is being reused!"

[loud heron]

As someone who hated graph node systems in college coding classes

I dont envy you

[oblique hollow]

Maybe even change the color of the arrow

[wind spade]

I'm wondering if it's even possible to tell what is "reused"

[oblique hollow]

If the machine isnt an extractor, its reused

[wind spade]

like how does it differ from just making a recipe that produces something to multiple places

[loud heron]

With some basic Computer Science ingenuity, you could make an algoritm that traverses a graph and detects loops

[muted crypt]

see: plastic

[loud heron]

Then mark the nodes and lines that involve recycling

[wind spade]

yeah, plastic/rubber recycling loop breaks it

since that one doesn't reuse anything

[oblique hollow]

Well those are pretty simple

Since they just feed into each other

[wind spade]

yeah but it's a loop, so it'll get detected as "reused"

[muted crypt]

I guess you could maybe note the exceptions in the code, for instances where rubber feeds into plastic or vice versa, for example

[loud heron]

Do a traversal to see if they match each others inputs and outputs

A loop should be equal parts going in a circle

[oblique hollow]

Oh, yeah, sum checks

[wind spade]

I could, but as I said, I'd like a generic solution, so that I don't have to manually do stuff every update

[muted crypt]

right

[oblique hollow]

I still think the (if its not a production building, its recycled) works

[wind spade]

there's a lot of stuff where I could do some specific code for a single recipe or something to make the tool slightly better, but I don't like that approach, as I'd rather have it generic

[oblique hollow]

Since only Extractors dont need input to produce parts

[wind spade]

can you clarify this?

[muted crypt]

once again, see: plastic

[oblique hollow]

I still think its possible with that in mind..... Give me a minute

[loud heron]

traverseLoop();
for(loopInGraph) {
  //do some sorta sum check for all parts in the loop to see if they saturate each other
  if(conditionPass) {
    markNodesAsRecycled()
  }
}

Probably a lil too simple of a pseudoblock to get

[muted crypt]

looks more complex than python so I think you're fine there

[oblique hollow]

.... Right, if a machine's output target is the same as the one that gives input, its a loop

Buuut thats for immediate steps

3 steps are a bit harder

[loud heron]

define 3 steps

like a package unpackager?

[muted crypt]

recycled plastic/rubber

[oblique hollow]

Like, A to B, B to C, C to A

[loud heron]

This would be found with a graph loop algorithm regardless

[wind spade]

so, while this may work, there's also no guarantee, that this will work

[oblique hollow]

Recycled plastic and Rubber are easy those are immediate

A to B, B to A

Same for water and stuff

[loud heron]

When you do a graph loop detector, it can find a loop no matter how large it is (with increasing latency)

Then its just a matter of choosing which node to start from in the loop and going in a circle while you count the items

[wind spade]

the main issue is that the arrows on the graph may be pretty random

[oblique hollow]

How do you detect if you need to produce "fresh" parts?

[wind spade]

and user can connect them differently

for example, I can make the loop go away if I produce some extra pure ingots

[loud heron]

Via the loop detector.
If the item sum is negative, there is a deficiency.
Find the building with a deficiency, travel down its node and mark as fresh

[loud heron]

well afaik this graph is generated only once per User's Settings

I dont think you can edit this graph other than turning nodes on and off to mark as "finished" no?

If you add extra pure ingots, doesnt your tool recalculate this graph?

[wind spade]

basically when I construct the graph, I don't have the information of which items go where, I just have the information which recipe is used in how many buildings and I construct the graph from that (iterating over each recipe's inputs and connecting them to other recipe's outputs). So while you usually get the arrows in the same place, there's no guarantee that they'll stay that way

[loud heron]

There must be some final graph Object that presents this graph to the user no?

[wind spade]

what I'm saying is that there's more than one way to construct those arrows

another example - the plastic/recycled loop, where usually it's better to connect the residual rubber to the loop to kickstart it

[oblique hollow]

Any time you detect a resource being needed and a resource being produced, and those match, its a loop.
Like,

B: Produces 10 Y, needs 5 X```

[loud heron]

True, but it shouldnt matter if the recycle check happens AFTER the arrows are baked no?

[oblique hollow]

If you only detect a demand, but no production, then you can do backwards construction to add production lines

Loops always are made of a double check: Is my Input the same as someone elses Output?

[wind spade]

yeah, I'm just saying that technically existence of a loop is determined by semi-random code rather than by actual existence of a loop

so there may be cases where a tool reports a loop when there's none or vice versa

[oblique hollow]

I think you can always do an easy math check, just with raw numbers

[wind spade]

what about three-way loops?

[loud heron]

Theres gotta be a better way to find a loop and add exceptions to prevent false reports.

[loud heron]

That would be a 3 node loop

A->B->C->A

[wind spade]

(diluted packaged fuel comes to mind)

[oblique hollow]

Im about to try and math that

[wind spade]

yeah, but I don't really want to add code that detects 2-[number of nodes] sized loops

that'd have big performance impact imo

[loud heron]

You could show the graph first as is then request the user if they wanna see more details (like the recycling)

That way the original graph arrives on time

and the performance impact is optional to the user

[loud heron]

Isnt this just a 2 way loop of canisters to packaged water

[supple mural]

nah theres three machines there

[oblique hollow]

Canister In, canister out

[wind spade]

no

[muted crypt]

canister + water -> packaged water
packaged water + HOR -> packaged fuel
packaged fuel -> canister + fuel

[loud heron]

In this condition, youd probably want to check the recipe for packaged fuel and packaged water to see if it includes canisters

Since all 3 do at 1:1:1 ratios

its a perfect recycled loop

This can be generalized

[wind spade]

yeah that's another thing that users have been "complaining" about. That these perfect closed loops need some amount of items to be inserted first

and the tool doesn't tell them

[supple mural]

that might be why its a closed loop lel

[loud heron]

That honestly should be their own fix

Usually you just add a storage container and shove a fuckload of canisters into it haha

[wind spade]

indeed, but with the generic loop-detecting code, this will be pretty much a free QOL addition

[loud heron]

I think my facility needed like several thousands of canisters to properly prime

[supple mural]

obviously the canisters come from the fuel unpackagers, i dont need to add in my own

[oblique hollow]

I guess to find out how you would make a loop detector, we need to find out how greeny's tool truely works xd

[wind spade]

that's why you do 1:1:1 closed loops with like ~50 canisters per loop 😛

[supple mural]

but thats a lot of cargo containers

[wind spade]

oh I can talk about that for ages 😛

[loud heron]

If a loop like this is detected, you should assume that the buildings involved need a primer item (which can be checked) and say "Hey, I recommend you prime this loop with x amount of y"

[supple mural]

oh wait

you wouldnt need any cargo containers that way....

[oblique hollow]

I mainly wonder how the consumption and production is calculated. Do yoi start with the desired product and then work your way backwards?

[wind spade]

I'd most likely just do "needs y to prime", since the amount cannot be properly calculated in any way

[loud heron]

You can make a reasonable guess

or a rule of thumb

[supple mural]

could go with some "at least this many" number?

[loud heron]

This is preferable

[supple mural]

like you would need at least the same number of items as go through the machines per minute

[wind spade]

reasonable guess for diluted packaged fuel loop would be "anything from 30 canisters per 3 machines in the loop to several tens of thousands of canisters because their belts are super long"

[supple mural]

also, it doesnt bother me that the calculator sometimes does silly loops

[loud heron]

To circumvent the loop length, just add primers to each building in the loop

[supple mural]

because you can just do your own plumbing anyway

[wind spade]

black magic matrix math called linear programming, a way to optimise a given set of constraints and variables for best outcome based on value function

[bleak coral]

my favorite now is the instant scrap that feeds water to itself

[loud heron]

If you prime the refinery with packaged fuel and the packagers with packaged water

and the unpackagers with canisters

tada, perfectly primed and ready for balancing

[cedar mica]

Is there really such a thing as too many empty cannisters in a loop?

[bleak coral]

yes

you can overload it and clog it

[loud heron]

Yes, they can block lol

[wind spade]

yes, at some point it'll clog at least some machines

[loud heron]

Oxygen Not Included taught me all about overstuffing loops

[cedar mica]

Fill till it clogs, then start removing till it flows... Not the fastest, but garanties its enough

[wind spade]

I could talk about this in more depth, but probably in DMs rather than spamming this channel. It's a really complex topic 😄

[supple mural]

i put just enough fluid canisters into my loops for the industrial storage container in my loop to not be empty

[wind spade]

or just make 1:1:1 loops and put a stack in each machine

fastest way to do it 😄

[loud heron]

Yep

[wind spade]

(or half a stack if your loop is small)

[supple mural]

i mean

[loud heron]

well if the loop is small it still cant block

cause youre meeting your 1:1 ratio

[supple mural]

that would mean sending conveyor lifts down below my machines or above them if i have my refineries all next to eachother

[wind spade]

probably even 2:2:2 could work, as you'd have belt between those two sets of machines with a splitter and a merger at end/start of the belt

[supple mural]

which is how i like to do it for space reasons

[oblique hollow]

Yeah DM is fine. I just read up on linear programming and that theres a few ways for it like simplex and what not

[supple mural]

plus imo its easier to spam manifolds than the same thing with belts going around your refineries for every refinery

[wind spade]

anyway, let's get back to the topic, since we have already like 4 topics and diluted packaged fuel optimisation doesn't have to be one of them (especially because we have the way cooler brother called diluted fuel)

[supple mural]

facts

[muted crypt]

"you vs the guy she tells you not to worry about"

[wind spade]

indeed, could be a worthy addition to #satisfactory-memes

[muted crypt]

on it lmao

[loud heron]

Now that I have a blender

I feel like I could downsize my fuel generator intermediary refineries

[muted crypt]

in typical shitpost fashion I have made it with paint @wind spade

[loud heron]

Oh no nvm

[tight mortar]

I dont know if this is the right place to ask this, but what is the best way to maximize a fuel generator plant? Are certain recipes better for converting oil/ more power efficient?

[muted crypt]

step 1: always use the heavy oil residue alt (crude oil -> heavy oil residue + resin, resin is byproduct)
step 2: always use diluted fuel (either packaged or not, people seem to prefer not now)
step 3: turbofuel (most efficient use of resources seems to be turbo blend fuel specifically, instead of turbofuel or turbo heavy fuel)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/835944123549876265/835944377121505280/unknown.png

This is what I'm personally using, for example

[tight mortar]

And turbo fuel is specifically an alt recipe right?

[loud heron]

We dont package it anymore cause we got blenders to avoid the packager loop

[muted crypt]

I know

[loud heron]

I believe they all are

[muted crypt]

correct

[loud heron]

all variants of it

[muted crypt]

I'm actually unsure if turbo blend is locked behind compacted coal or not

but yes, all variants of turbofuel are alts

[loud heron]

I dont think so