math-and-meta

[icy pumice]

game gets more complicated

[fierce ruin]

small vertical expansion followed by H O R I Z O N T A L

[torpid robin]

Wait till you see the OC super computer lol

[icy pumice]

oh no

im happy where i am rn hahah

did the recipe for computers changed in update4?

[oblique hollow]

A bit, yeah

[fierce ruin]

It did?

[icy pumice]

mh then I cant use the tools site

[fierce ruin]

oh right they just switched round'

[torpid robin]

Normal computers no ? I thought just sucomps

[icy pumice]

but the ratios are still the same?

[torpid robin]

Or am I mistaken

[fierce ruin]

Greeny's on it

[oblique hollow]

You can use SCIM to check for the new recipes. Just remember to set it to "Experimental" in the top right

[icy pumice]

lol

[fierce ruin]

I thought the default comp recipe was switched out like with alum scrap recipe

[icy pumice]

thats great, thanks

[fierce ruin]

IDK maybe I saw it wrong

[icy pumice]

r 5 computers/min good for starting with trains or is this way to much?

[oblique hollow]

5 / mim already seems pretty high

[icy pumice]

so like 2 per min?

[oblique hollow]

Heck maybe even 1

[icy pumice]

uh

then the numbers r so weird haha

well thats also with 2

[oblique hollow]

Underclock or smthn

[icy pumice]

yea of course

but i always think that its bad to not use like full capacity of a oil resource or smt

[oblique hollow]

You wont be able to at the beginning

Thats for later on

Start small

[icy pumice]

k

[icy pumice]

thats my problem haha

but yea gonna start with 1 com/min

[reef ermine]

can someone help me out with a 3-6.66 Balancer?

[fierce ruin]

y tho

[reef ermine]

We only have Mk.2 Conveyors, and have 300/minute of Limestone

[oblique hollow]

Manifold, but balance the manifold

[reef ermine]

yeah but I'm looking for the overly and unnecessarily complicated way

[fierce ruin]

why, it'll balance out since the first rows will fill up and the overflow gets sent down the line

[reef ermine]

I know that makes the most sense, but I enjoy figuring out complicated things

[tender grove]

How many constructors does a single caterium smelter need for max efficiency?

[torpid robin]

Well if you enjoy figuring it out . Why are you asking others to figure it out for you ?

[reef ermine]

I need help with it, I'm having a very hard time with it

[tender grove]

No problem asking for a second opinion

[upbeat tide]

How many pipe junctions can be on one pipe before the flowrate bugs?

Splitting into machines

[cedar mica]

Is there a flowrate bug?

[fierce ruin]

it's in pipes not machine AFAIAA

[upbeat tide]

I have 10 hor refineries on one mk2 pipe, 400m3 feeding 14 diluted packaged oil refineries

[cedar mica]

Never had it, but maybe because I always overfill the pipes?

[upbeat tide]

Flowrate is very screwy down the line

[fierce ruin]

because of rounding error and probability

give it some time

[cedar mica]

So flowrate bug is only an issue, if you go for exact numbers?

[upbeat tide]

Its not exact there should be a bit left over

Total build, makes me 2800 rubber when working

[cedar mica]

48 refinerys on 1 pipe?

[upbeat tide]

Oooh god no 3

Just stacked down the line

[fierce ruin]

lol

underclock nightmare

[upbeat tide]

Not really only one underclock per segment

Segments of 6.67 total 6 segments

[fierce ruin]

no I meant all on one pipe

a massive waste of space just to underclock the lot of them

[upbeat tide]

Oh yes if so

[fierce ruin]

but yeah the new % system should allow for better underclocking

Not sure bout the junction stuff I've never tested it.

[upbeat tide]

Think I found it, neglected a pump or 2 at the very beginning

[fierce ruin]

rip

[upbeat tide]

The back HOR refineries arent emptying properly

My favorite part tho. Corridor of pipes and belts

[fierce ruin]

yikes

just put it under less verticality

[upbeat tide]

Not a option. Under = a floor of cheap silica

Under that a floor of fused quickwire, than eventually swamp level

[cedar mica]

If mk1 is not good enough, there is always mk2...

[upbeat tide]

Brah...all mk2 here 🙂

[cedar mica]

Not on pumps

[upbeat tide]

Oh the water pipes isnt the issue

Those are not the HOR pipes

[fierce ruin]

gotta work on choosing colors

they're so loud

[upbeat tide]

likes it that way

[fierce ruin]

sadist

[upbeat tide]

guilty

This will explain better why going down isnt fesible

SCIM before the recycled rubber plant went in tho

[fierce ruin]

build locally

[upbeat tide]

Map-wide

[fierce ruin]

rocky desert visible pain

your oil is one spot no wonder

a cramped one at that

[upbeat tide]

The oil for that build in the swamp is piped from the desert nodes

[fierce ruin]

why

[upbeat tide]

I would not call my blue crater crampt

[upbeat tide]

Mostly because lack of water there

[fierce ruin]

water is closer to the north west

[upbeat tide]

Still was simpler to take it to the ocean where I already have water infrastructure

[torpid robin]

Might be a bit late . But as long as you aren’t at full flow I believe you are fine to do multiple splits and not worry

[daring sonnet]

I was checking the recipes after U4, turbo motors are the same still, right?

if possible, is there anyone with a turbo motor setup that can confirm it for sure?

[bleak coral]

turbo motors are very much not the same, U4 turbo motors recipes: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/codex/items/turbo-motor

[round forum]

I just did the math, with mk 3 conveyors, one mk 2 coal miner and one mk 2 sulfur miner both producing 270 coal/sulfur each to make compacted coal can supply 188.82 coal generators.......I will never need power again after this bullshit

[worn galleon]

Anyone have a link to a good belt divider calculator?

[round forum]

I am going to pray that once I get mk4+ conveyors I MIGHT be able to get away with using a bunch of splitters to deal with the increased speed

[mystic crag]

In terms of nuclear power, For the alternative fuel rod, has anything other than the amount of uranium cells been changed?

[topaz hedge]

Hm... I think I'm going to need more power https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=1VkcQ2hRIiDzkxWcC7mO

my poor 408 fuel gens

[mystic crag]

Hahahah, dont worry, you shjould be fine so long as you charge a field of batteries

[past dock]

Anyone else having trouble seeing the value proposition of drones? They seem to be using a massive amount of power compared to trains, can't transport decent numbers of things because you can only use one drone per pad, and you also have to use alumina and sulfur to build batteries for them, and you even have to fly batteries out to any place you actually want to use drones to deliver stuff.

I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around how they help... it's not like you even save having to run power out to where the drones are.

[mystic crag]

They are extreamly fast.
IF you needed a small amoutt of say, caterium, you can set up a drone pad, have a small amount of batteries and the drone will get there in under a minute

[torpid robin]

and you dont need to lay big train tracks everywhere

[mystic crag]

that too

[past dock]

But you still need to run power.

[torpid robin]

thast not too hard

[past dock]

I need EIGHT drone pads to move one bauxite node 1 kilometer.

[mystic crag]

If you have a factory, you should already have power over there

[topaz hedge]

[torpid robin]

i kinda of feel its not gonna be great to use them like that. i feel they are gonna be better to say transport the 20pm motors you make at6 one factory to another on the other side of the map

[river night]

drones are not designed for high volume stuff like bauxite, they are designed for low volume things, like a finished product etc

[past dock]

Yeah but you can run power with train tracks, so if you just build a train out to where you're going, you have power AND transport in one go.

Have the devs stated that drones are not meant for high volume stuff?

[topaz hedge]

lets take my example, I want to make 20 nuclear pasta's a min, I'll make the cubes and fly them by drone out to wherever my accelrators are

[river night]

pretty much right in the intro video

[torpid robin]

no. but normally a bit of common sense goes a long way in this game.

i mean at end of the day you can playh and use them how you like

[topaz hedge]

but everything else involving large numbers will be train. small stuff + small stack size = drones

[mystic crag]

yea, they are super cool for sorting systems
and can transport finished products super quickly

[torpid robin]

large stack would probs work better than small stack

[topaz hedge]

Prehaps, but do I really want to move 4800/min of material by done?

[river night]

no

[torpid robin]

why not?

[mystic crag]

noooooo

[topaz hedge]

dones are faster, and finished products are normally stacks of 50, which is very hard to move by train.

[past dock]

That felt a bit unnecessary, I'm just evaluating a new feature in the game.

[topaz hedge]

I say it's hard, I haven't actually tried...

[torpid robin]

wasnt having a dig at you or anything dude

im just saying the devs dont really tell you what they put in the game and why. they sorta leave it up to you to figure out the best use

[topaz hedge]

I'm still burning about them putting a hitbox on the 8x1 down corners... gr

[river night]

obviously they devs still have an idea how they think something should be used, and the drone is designed for low-volume/long-distance transport, which fits something like a finished high-tier part the best

[topaz hedge]

Hey look me and Nev actually agree on something >.>

[past dock]

I'm just really disappointed I guess because I was hoping when I saw drones that it would finally solve the things blocking decoupled design due to belt limitations.

[topaz hedge]

oh no im gonna have to use pure copper..

fk and it's still not enough. using all the copper in dune desert, (9300) I can make 19.38 bowls of pasta a min

[torpid robin]

huh so funnily enough. if you try to build about 60 of everything. copper is what you run out of before anything

with coal not far behind.

bauxite,quartz oil,cat next

[naive ingot]

So, I'm going to guess that the limiting resource on Pasta is Nitrogen, not Bauxite?

[torpid robin]

nope

its not one you would think lol

[naive ingot]

Copper?

[torpid robin]

yea

[naive ingot]

That dust do be like that tho.

[torpid robin]

i have spent the night going over alts and playinbg arosund with different combos. copper is almost always the limiting factor

makes the pure copper alt waaaaaaay more needed than copper alloy now

[naive ingot]

Fascinating. Even if you use pure copper.

[torpid robin]

yup

so read above. i put in 60 of everything. apart from the elevator parts. that was 40 . copper ran out before i used half of tha cat and oil

and it uses 8k bauxite

would use 40k iron ore though

and was only 2 k coal left

hmm so that makes me think steel screw isnt so good now 🤔

wonder what other steel alts i could use from iron instead

[naive ingot]

At least now there's that alt Turbofuel recipe that uses coke instead of coal...

[torpid robin]

funnily enough i found the original turbo rigor motor was still better for resource usage

one of the biggest savings though is the OC super computer

[naive ingot]

They changed that alt, didn't they?

[torpid robin]

oh shit im not too sure/. lemme check

[wind spade]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/codex/items/turbofuel

[torpid robin]

look at that they did too

so they swapped the stators for rotors and ai limiters for electromagnetic control rods

[naive ingot]

Yeah, I really like the greater use of control rods.

[torpid robin]

ye. im struggling to decide what is better out of the standard RCU or the radio control system alt

[topaz hedge]

I think instead of a pasta factory and a sea of accelerators, I'd be better off sinking thermal rockets :/ more points and doesn't require a brand spankin new 200GW nuclear setup

[torpid robin]

yeae they make more

[wind spade]

I'd like to see people's reaction to this sentence without context

[topaz hedge]

X3

[torpid robin]

wait wtf. they changed turbo fuel?

dw big dumb. wrong alt

[topaz hedge]

more alts (:

[vast jungle]

still the new TF alt is interesting

[torpid robin]

hmmmm coal is gonna be an issue

[torpid robin]

yea cause you can do it without coal. and coal is lackiong more than you would think now

but it can cost a decent biut more of oil

[vast jungle]

and less Sulfur!

yes, more Oil

but Sulfur was a limiting factor for TF before

[torpid robin]

this is also very true

but in saying this. you also now need stuff all sulfur for nuclear

[vast jungle]

Dilluted fuel (BLender) is also changing quite a few numbers

[topaz hedge]

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=jQbZEh9JvKQHeAt8TzFC

if you spend all your sulfur on nuclear then there's none for drones and bullets tho xD

I suppose the nuclear rebalance is to push you to not sink plutonium rods?

[sullen cloud]

Until now, one can sink plutonium rods

[topaz hedge]

if you do it's throwing away 50% of your power.

[torpid robin]

oh wow. so 5.5k oil can do the same job as 25k coal

[torpid robin]

and with only been able to make 31 rods now. actual power from uranium has been cut down 2 thirds of total power.

[wind spade]

this has been fixed, hopefully

[glacial hemlock]

TM nerfed, now the new end game goal is to farm the spelevator parts. All the alts may need to be re-eveluate

[torpid robin]

yea its really interesting how some of these numbers are working out

[glacial hemlock]

Especially tier 7 and 8 items. Too much brain power involved

[torpid robin]

so much steel is used lol

steel and copper oh my lord

[vast jungle]

before U4 it was relatively clear what is "rare" and what is "don't know what to do with it"... now?

[torpid robin]

and oil is hardly touched

[torpid robin]

what i can tell its all been flipped around

cat ,quartz,oil go ham

copper,coal well

bauxite gets hit pretty hard too. but still 1 k left for whatg i have while copper and coal have run out

[vast jungle]

you can go for Petrolium Coke for Aluminium

if you run out of coal

[torpid robin]

5.5k oil can do what 25k coal does

so yea you can, but copper then has still run out

im trying to find alt combos to bring copper cost down. but im not having much luck

[vast jungle]

Iron Wire 😉

is it just the Pasta that grabs all the Copper, or is there more to it?

[torpid robin]

copper sheets is still used en mass

[vast jungle]

yeah...

[torpid robin]

so tried swapping out circuit board alts.

[vast jungle]

my "electronics" factory is eating them for lunch... and dinner... and .... midnight snacks?

[torpid robin]

cat circuit board and silicon use pretty much same amount of copper in long run

all you are doing there is swapping quartz for cat

[glacial hemlock]

Caterium=copper

[vast jungle]

not for copper sheets

[torpid robin]

no but for cat circuit you make fused quickwire. so eats copper. for silicon it uses sheets so east copper lol

[vast jungle]

you can easily make Quickwire just from Caterium... (I normally do this)

[torpid robin]

that is an option but it will eat your cat up quickly too

i think the cat circuit board is going to be better logn term in very large scale factories

cause it looks liek more quartz is used in nuclear production and reuse than cat

but all that uses steel as well. so it may be a case of using coke ingot at the end as oil isnt getting hit hard

they have also pushed us into using crystal osciallatorsa

[vast jungle]

crystal oscillators were really awful before U4 I think

[topaz hedge]

U4 made my huge 4800 a min plastic and rubber setup almost useless

[torpid robin]

cat computer and crystal computer work out much the same as well

so from what i can see. they have balanced things so you are hitting the cap with most resopurces around the same time ish

[topaz hedge]

You can't win.. I kinda noticed that too

[torpid robin]

oh wait. here we go

insulated crystal oscillator alt. getting rid of that. obviously costs more quartz. but dropped copper by 2 k. now it only uses 26k copper lol

[topaz hedge]

That's a difference, not much of one but it's still less

Ai limiters chew through copper with fused wire

[torpid robin]

i find doing a plan in the bigger numbers on greenys calc can show the difference the most. 2k ore can turn into a bit of ingots

[topaz hedge]

It's not much off the total, but if you plan on building it, that's several less svelte to run and hook up

[torpid robin]

electric motor is good to save on a heap of coal

at the cost of 800 copper though lol

[vast jungle]

but doesn't it cost copper?

[topaz hedge]

Maybe I will build my pasta farm

[torpid robin]

well no maybe dont

cause pasts farm is the thing that eatsg the mostg copper

48k copper ingots to make 40pm

and they dont get as many points

[topaz hedge]

It is. I was thinking about using 9300 ore from the desert for 19 pm

They don't, just uses more power than anything else

[vast jungle]

1.2k copper for 1 paste/min????

omg

hey idiots at ficsit, can we just use something else? if you squash protons and electrons into neutrons, the source material should not matter!

[topaz hedge]

And a silly amount of power

[torpid robin]

no pasta says its 518272 while thermal propulsion is 637514

120k difference

and no eating all the dam copper lol

[topaz hedge]

Yeah it's less points for sure, but less..ish completely

Complexity* I dunno. I'm on the fence. 2000 different machines or a few hundred and 310 pure copper refineries.

Not including a new powerplant that will be 1000 machines lol

[torpid robin]

wowzers

those thermals you can get 128,548,323 points PM

pasta you can get 31,163,695.4

[topaz hedge]

Thermals it is

Maybe I can stay on fuel power too. No way that was going to happen with pasta

[thin siren]

Can Someone Check If my math is correct?

[wind spade]

what the

• Changed the number of decimals in overclocking from 1 to 4

[vast jungle]

decimals before or after comma? hmm...

10.134% sounds a bit crazy to be true... but who knows

[wind spade]

well we could do 10.1% already

so it seems like we can do 10.1234% now

[vast jungle]

interesting

[fierce ruin]

And it still wont work due to amount of splitters and junctions

[vast jungle]

this should allow any kind of output with good precision

[frosty owl]

I think the last 3 digits are useful mostly on the late game. Especially the last 2 😆

[upbeat tide]

You have no idea...looks at you my little friend, pure iron ingot, pure aluminum ingot, supercomputer, etc

[frosty owl]

Eh, the pure recipes are fine... Electronic is the pain with those weird ass digits

[upbeat tide]

Pure alu makes 27 a min. Not soo fun

And actually is useful now combined with slopppy alu solution and electrode scrap

[frosty owl]

The allu one is the only pure I haven't tried :P

[upbeat tide]

It made no sense in U3 since it losee 25% ingots

But in U4 its actually useful

This is the setup I am going toward

Based on the bauxite limit. Its 2580, so will have 80 bauxite a min unused

The sloppy alt removes byproduct silica from the picture. But lower bauxite usage

[viscid raft]

Just to confirm, there is still only 1800 Uranium/Second, yes?

[upbeat tide]

2100

They added a impure node on north shore

In U4. In U3 yes 1800

[viscid raft]

neatoooo

tyty

[upbeat tide]

The encased uranium cell alt is still broke

Current max in U4 is 31.5 rods a min

[sullen cloud]

Have you incorporated that they added several new bauxite nodes?

6 new ones

[upbeat tide]

Not in the swamps (I think)

Should be 2 normal, 2 impure, 1 pure here

[sullen cloud]

No, west of the swamps

[tired raptor]

The total max for all nodes together or from one normal?

[upbeat tide]

2580 is my total max in the Swamp region

But 1200 alclad and 2800 casings is insane

This same total used to make only 819 alclad

I went heavier on casings than alclad as those seem to be used more in stuff

[frosty owl]

@wind spade is this accurate?
I might have to rethink my "all OC idea" if it is... 😅

[upbeat tide]

Yes its accurate

It is because the encased uranium cell alt is not uodated to work in U4 yet

So the max nuclear rods you could make is 31.5

Once that is fixed we should be back to a max of 94.5

Actually higher now the uranium is 2100

On the plutonium side, cant confirm

[iron prairie]

I'm not 100% sure encased uranium cells will be making a comeback. It seems to me that the intent is to require players to move onto plutonium power if they want the old terawatt+ power outputs.

[upbeat tide]

Going by the numbers thats impossible to replicate with plutonium

Even with alts I think

Let me run some numbers. Also plutonium burns faster than uranium rods

[glacial hemlock]

2x rate exactly. And 1 rod only 5 waste

[upbeat tide]

Isnt plutonium 150 sec life?

And uranium 300

[glacial hemlock]

yes, and that means 2x burn rate

[upbeat tide]

Yea

[glacial hemlock]

you continue with your U3 saves?

[thin siren]

Plutonium would bei an Option If it would burn at a lower rate than uranium or when u would get more rods in the production process. A quarter of the burnrate of uranium or about 8-10 Times the amount of rods.
Terawatt is only nessesery for real big factorys that use nearly every orenode.
But the New accelerator needs also a LOT of Power :yum:

[sullen cloud]

The question is more if you really go for nuclear. And if that’s the case it would be rational to use plutonium as well

[fast urchin]

Has anybody calculated how much energy you can make with nuclear + no waste (by sinking plutonium rods)?

[thin siren]

Yeah but plutonium Just doesnt give enough. 74k plutonium in compare to 400k by uranium

[thin siren]

See the Picture earlyer today. I Postet U3 -> U4 nuclear comparison
About 400k

[fast urchin]

but it doesn't list the power used

but thanks ... and so it means now we can generate a lot LESS power?

even though the energy consumption increased

[thin siren]

True 🤣

[bleak coral]

Honestly meta analysis of nuclear power is a little pointless until they fix the encased uranium shell alt

We don't know how that looks yet

[thin siren]

Did they Said that the recipie gets Changes?

[bleak coral]

It's straight broken right now, so they have to do something to it

[sand garnet]

yes, for months they've been saying that

[bleak coral]

Unless they just remove it, I don't know what the precedent for just removing alts is

[sturdy flicker]

How many sink points equals 1 ticket in the sink?

[misty bolt]

you need more and more points for a ticket

[bleak coral]

Formula is on this page: https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/AWESOME_Sink

[sturdy flicker]

Ohhh, I was thinking I could pull big stonks and produce infinte points by buying super computers and then feeding them back in

[bleak coral]

haha no

[fast urchin]

I think it was changed because initially people did exactly that

[bleak coral]

@frosty owl @thin siren Btw I checked what the max U3 fuel rods are without the infused uranium cells alt (the one that hasn't been updated for U4 yet), and it's 27 rods/min. This is the same max for 1800/min uranium in U4.
No infused uranium shell U3 max: https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=vbEvJWEcxfciu5Z1C4nE
U4 max uranium rods with only 1800/min uranium (same max as U3): https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=dza9ORSyKFFLkVkVOGho

So currently the recipes are the same efficiency, we're just missing a really good one cause it hasn't been updated yet.

[hazy fossil]

Sloppy alumina with pure aluminum ingots might provide a better silica > aluminum bar ratio with the silica from the bauxite alone

[wind spade]

infused uranium cell will be removed

[bleak coral]

did they say that somewhere?

[wind spade]

in patch notes they said they rebalanced nuclear and part of that is removing uranium pellets

[bleak coral]

infused uranium cells doesn't make pellets

[wind spade]

it uses them tho

[bleak coral]

so did the old uranium cell vanilla recipe, doesn't mean they'll axe the alt instead of changing it

[wind spade]

🤷‍♂️

[bleak coral]

I mean I don't know either, maybe they will get rid of it 🤷‍♂️

I hope they update it, cause otherwise that's a big nerf to nuclear

[wind spade]

iirc that's because your power should come from plutonium, not nuclear

[wicked tinsel]

plutonium is like half the nuclear quality tho isnt it, according to wiki

[bleak coral]

yeah, and the total between plutonium and uranium is less than just the uranium from U3

I mean maybe they did decide we didn't need 1.2TW potential power, and honestly that's not wrong lol

[rare surge]

Am dumb, need math checked for a 4x reinforced iron plates setup without overclockers or alt recipes

I need:

• 180 Iron ingots -> 6 constructors -> 120 plates
• 60 Iron ingots -> 4 constructors -> 60 rods -> 6 constructors -> 240 screws

[bleak coral]

yeah that's correct

[fast urchin]

60 iron per reinforced iron plate, 45 iron per rotor

[rare surge]

Was making sure I had machine count right aswell, Xunil.

Thanks you all for the check; much appreciated

[bleak coral]

gonna have to be creative with those belts, assuming you only have mk1 and maybe mk2

[rare surge]

got mk2s

[fast urchin]

yeah, so you should probably make a 2x reinforced iron plates setup?

[rare surge]

have mk3s but don't have a setup for them yet; redoing factory specifically for steel production

[bleak coral]

nothing wrong with just having screws on two different belts

[fast urchin]

you can just use 3 constructors with a splitter from the middle, going to a merger on each other side

at least that's how I am always doing that

but that's when I am short on reinforced iron plates, i.e. just have researched logistics mk2

avoids mk2 belts altogether (except for the miner)

[rare surge]

yea, belting isn't hard for this. 2 constructors for rods -> merger -> splitter -> 3 constructors for screws -> merger -> assembler

something like that anyways

[fast urchin]

yeah

but if you merge all 3 constructors, you have to use an mk2 belt

at least for a short segment

[glacial hemlock]

@rare surge https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Tutorial:Production_line

This will explain the math in detail.

[rare surge]

Yea, I know that. I was asking about ratios, not how to set it up 😛

Or rather wanted to make sure my math was correct after second guessing myself

[glacial hemlock]

I see. To check for math, you can use the online calculator in the pinned links.

[fast urchin]

Does anyone have a reliable tool where you can put in desired output ratios (like 1000 concrete, 5 turbo motors, ...) and it calculates you an optimal production plan (considering all alternative recipes, or only a select portion of them) using all available resources in the game?
I actually tried doing that myself and failed a few times, so I wanted to ask before I try once again

The formulas are pretty easy to write down, but at least the choco solver I tried is really slow for that problem

[bleak coral]

you'll want to use https://www.satisfactorytools.com/ for that, the other calculator in the pins doesn't do large builds very well because it tries to figure out the logistics too

that one just tells you the number of machines and what recipes

[fast urchin]

does it also consider power? That's one of the problems I had

[bleak coral]

it has two solves:

1. items/min solves for most weighted resource efficient as in it considers how rare resources are for resources efficiency, so it considers 1 iron worth less than 1 copper for example
2. maximize which solves for most items but not resource efficiency yet

no power solves yet, that's being worked on

it does calculate average and max power

[fast urchin]

Ah, yeah, one of the issues I have/had was with cycles, and power generates a lot of them

[bleak coral]

what do you mean cycles?

[fast urchin]

yeah, but power needs resources, and the resources might be also needed for producing stuff, so depending on what to produce, the energy required would make some recipe better or worse

[past dock]

Power in general shouldn't be much of a problem in Satisfactory, what kinds of power issues are you running into?

[fast urchin]

like you can get water from water extractors, but also as byproduct

and the cycles between packaged and unpackaged fuel

[bleak coral]

oh don't mix power and production

[fast urchin]

I am not necessarily running into power issues, just wanted to optimize stuff

[bleak coral]

I mean you can solve for the fuels, just not power itself
Also I'm still not clear what you're trying to do. Are you wanting to use the waste water in power production?

[fast urchin]

no

I want a program where I can put in some output products (like in the site you mentioned) and it calculates me how many times the output products can be produced with the world's resources (including power) using optimal recipes

[bleak coral]

oh, not just max stuff but max sustainable including how much power is needed to support it

[fast urchin]

and you actually can't ignore cycles, because for example the residual rubber --> plastic --> rubber is a sensible cycle

yeah

[bleak coral]

yeah I don't think there's a tool for that yet, but greeny is working on it for that one I linked

[fast urchin]

Alright, so I will probably have to start another attempt for solving that problem 🙂

[bleak coral]

Have you seen the update 4 changes to power yet?

[fast urchin]

seen yes, but I don't think they make the problem much harder or easier, as for any given production, you can just manually clock the generators

[bleak coral]

constant 100% power removes some fluctuations due to buildings providing fuel for power production not turning off and on as they back up, and batteries allow another solution for power fluctuations

[fast urchin]

like, the strange thing is the formulas are REALLY easy. It's a simple linear optimization problem

[bleak coral]

that's what I was thinking of at least

[fast urchin]

maybe I just need a better solver

[bleak coral]

maybe you should talk to @wind spade

he's deep in the math

[wind spade]

yeah, I do use linear optimisation problem solver on the tools

and power is being added to the tools

however there's another big core update that needs to be done first

[fast urchin]

which solver do you use, if I may ask?

[wind spade]

lp_solve

[fast urchin]

strange, because I think choco also is based on it, but maybe I need to use it directly

[wind spade]

it runs on the server, clients just query the API

choco?

[fast urchin]

it's something for java

I like programming in java, so I picked something I could easily use

[wind spade]

I see

lp_solve is language agnostic tho

you can just run the binary and pass text file to it

that's what I do

[past dock]

Heh oh man I just had to do a whole bunch of linear optimization stuff by hand with my kid for an honors math project.

When you have kids, you get to take all your math classes over again!

[fast urchin]

yeah, sounds like a possibility

[river night]

lp_solve also has direct java bindings

[median thunder]

there's only so many reasonable trees you can build, you could just generate all of them, reduce them to their inputs/outputs, remove useless ones, and show the rest to the user

[wind spade]

yeah it has a lot of direct stuff, but I wasn't able to run the PHP one and it's easier to just pass a text file to binary anyway

[wind spade]

there's A LOT of possibilities already

[past dock]

So I'm going to go on record right now and say that trying to use one bauxite node for aluminum production and sulfuric acid is a logistical nightmare

The math won't balance on the recycled water or the alumina solution

[median thunder]

is it? I guess with alts it gets a bit funny but it can't me more than, idk, a thousand trees, right?

[wind spade]

meh, you can easily reach thousands with just 10 recipes

it's 2^n possibilities in worst case

[median thunder]

that makes quite a lot of assumptions about recipes

the fact that most recipes don't depend on their output helps cut that number down a lot

there's only so many ways to make screws

[wind spade]

still, you could easily pick 10 different recipes that can be used in any combination with different tree outcome

[fast urchin]

well, as you have cycles, it's actually an infinite number of trees in theory

if you had infinite resources, of course

[median thunder]

🤔 do you consider 1 a -> 1 constructor -> b the same as 2 a -> 2 constructor -> 2 b

[fast urchin]

well, yeah, but I am talking about the e.g. residual plastic-> rubber -> plastic cycle

if you build a tree, you could go on forever

using more and more fuel

[median thunder]

oh, i see what you mean
that would be a rather inefficient tree lol

[fast urchin]

and if you consider power and do stuff the naive way, pretty much all your trees would be infinite as you need power to mine resources to produce power

[median thunder]

I guess a better term would be a graph, not a tree

[wind spade]

obviously I'm trying to find the worst case scenario, but that's what you have to do to determine how many options you'd have to go through

so let's imagine we're producing one or more items that together make use of every resource in the game, so technically you need to produce everything.

that essentially means that any recipe is a valid inclusion to the tree. There may be some exceptions where a given set of recipes get rid of one item, but it wouldn't be that many. So essentially you have 150+ recipes, with 2^150 possibilities. Even reducing it to 2^100 or even 2^50 still means you're dealing with 10^15 different trees

[fast urchin]

true, there is actually only a single graph, but basically the "weights" would still be different and thus generate an infinite number of different graphs

but if you want to calculate stuff, you have to get an order, and that's where the problem starts

but I shouldn't write here, but try our lp_solve now

[median thunder]

say you're making screws. There's only, what, 4 or 5 recipes that outputs screws. For each of those inputs, there's only max 5 different ways to make them (rods, steel bars, i forget the rest, etc). That's only going to go a max depth of 2-5 more constructors

2^150 assumes that to make any given object there's 150 different options

[naive ginkgo]

i feel like i should drop this here:
After a lot of debugging and trial and error I've finally managed to make an always 100% efficient layout for bauxite production.

[fast urchin]

for these low-level items, yes

[wind spade]

even 2^50 is still a lot. Also, having two recipes for screws at the same time is a valid option, it's not always A or B, it can be A and B together as well

[fast urchin]

but for the higher-level items, the problem is that you can build the lower level items on many different ways and depending on which resource is more scarce due to the other stuff you produce, different recipes are better

and what greeny said

[median thunder]

ah, that makes sense

especially doing A+B two different recipes for screws, I could easily see it getting out of hand

[bleak coral]

You run into that a lot with "map solves" because you often run out of resources for half of one alt so it needs to use another.

[wind spade]

yeah exactly

so basically it's 2^150+

[bleak coral]

Or even if you restrict the resources yourself that can happen on a realistic solve

[sullen cloud]

You should consider lowering your bauxite input of 780 or use two miners/ nodes. Because maxed out belts have same issues as maxed out pipes

[bleak coral]

Take the new aluminum stuff, a lot of the good solves involve using both pure and default ingots because of the new sloppy aluminum which doesn't make silicon

so it depends on how much quartz you want to dedicate to aluminum ingots

[naive ginkgo]

i mean this is to fully exploit a pure bauxite node, so no matter what i do i'll have a 780 belt full somewhere

[wind spade]

ok, so we have 231 recipes, so technically worst case is 2^231, obviously there's a lot of cases where there won't be a recipe for a given item, but it's still A LOT

that's 3*10^69 options btw

[sullen cloud]

I have tested A LOT with different setups and always ran into the issues. With the current problems you cannot max out a node when you have many splits

[naive ginkgo]

sloppy is the next one i want to figure out a 100% efficiency layout. Belts seems to have less issues carrying their full amounts than pipes so so it's going to be a challenge.

[naive ginkgo]

i mean all machines say 100% efficiency, and the belt hasn't stopped moving in about 3 hours, so i feel comfortable saying it's ok

[sullen cloud]

kk

[fast urchin]

the java api of lp_solve seems to be really low level, I think I'll write myself a wrapper

[wind spade]

I use the raw lp_solve file format 😄

talk about low level

http://lpsolve.sourceforge.net/5.5/lp-format.htm

also I'd bet there's an existing wrapper somewhere

[naive ginkgo]

like the only reason why i can see the belts not carry their full amounts right now is because of the miner taking a while to re-boot once it reaches max capacity, but since you can actually set machines to specific output rates and not just percentages anymore that amount hasn't moved in a while

[fast urchin]

lol, this format seems to be higher level than the java api

http://lpsolve.sourceforge.net/5.5/Java/README.html

not even variables there

[wind spade]

no, it's just some not ideal game code that can't make the calculations correct

miners have 100 item buffer, so they start up before that buffer is used

[naive ginkgo]

welp i'm waiting for my machines to say 99 percent or see a gap in the belts

[iron prairie]

I believe the issue is with splitters and possibly belts, where subtle rounding errors mean belts run at less than max capacity, especially the high-speed belt.

[wind spade]

and also that issue appears when merging two belts to max, not just miners

[bleak coral]

also mk5 do go fast enough that it depends on your performance, if your FPS drops low enough it can make them slow down

[sullen cloud]

Maybe this bauxite setup works flawlessly because there are no crazy decimals involved

[naive ginkgo]

last i checked splitters had buffers to deal with that

[bleak coral]

I don't know what the threshold is, I'd assume it's low enough it's not a problem most of the time or we wouldn't have mk5 belts

[naive ginkgo]

i feel like that's what the issue was with my previous designs fluid wize so likely

[iron prairie]

As to bauxite setups: I'm unsure about U4, but with U3, I tended to design bauxite refineries as multiples of 420 bauxite/minute.

[bleak coral]

we also have 4 decimal places in the clockspeed now, that should help with weird decimals

[naive ginkgo]

i posted the design above, scroll up and you should find it pretty easily

[sullen cloud]

Yeah, should (tm) at least help to reduce the resulting ‚loss‘ of items/ efficiency

[naive ginkgo]

i'm going to leave it running for a day or 2. See how it does and if efficiency goes down i'll let yall know

[iron prairie]

That's using some underclocking? What I'd probably do if I ever needed huge amounts of aluminum is do simpler setups based on numbers which work out for the refinery, and feed overflow to additional refineries.

As the number of bauxite refinery setups, N, becomes sufficiently large, the fraction of bauxite underutilized approaches zero.

[naive ginkgo]

yeah it's using under-clocking in the left most refineries so they can stay at 100% efficiency. Machines take a while to restart, often going pass the recipe requirements before they actually start processing

[sullen cloud]

I mean I have a full 780 rubber output setup with a overflow leading to a sink. And one machine goes down to 90 efficiency because the output gets stuck for some time

[naive ginkgo]

one of the burdens of my previous designs where those refineries that finished with just under the amount needed and kept blanking out

[naive ginkgo]

i still don't know how my 1802rubber/m setup stays consistent, I just played with the pipes for ages and at somepoint it started being ok...

[iron prairie]

For example, one max-600-per-min bauxite mine could feed one 420 baux/min setup with 30% bauxite underutilization... but three such mines can feed four 420 baux/min setups with just 6.67% bauxite underutilization.

[sullen cloud]

I have managed to eliminate every issue with this update (pipes esp) but the stucking output for this one machine remains. Fun fact: the identical 780 plastic setup doesn’t have this problem

[iron prairie]

With the numbers for bauxite being as miserable as they are, I'd rather have slight underutilization of the mines than tinker around too much with underclocking.

[naive ginkgo]

i swear these pipes are going to make me go nutz

[sullen cloud]

With your grouping of refineries and limiting the fluid numbers you should be fine

[naive ginkgo]

like i've had pipes that have a constant 600/m output that never fluctuates

and some just look at me funy and go no

[sullen cloud]

I don’t think you need any buffer in between, but that’s your choice

[naive ginkgo]

it's more of an alarm bell to tell me something has gone wrong and a buffer in case something happens, it's pure safety

[iron prairie]

Buffers can do odd things to head lift and fluid delivery, and I've stopped using them.

[naive ginkgo]

they usually do that if you put your buffers at the same height or lower than the thing they feed into

hence why i always put my above that height

[sullen cloud]

I am among the guys who have tested a lot with different setups. I think our common best guess is that the issues occur when you have a lot of junctions/ splits (a ‚math problem‘ with floating point) and maybe performance also contributes

[naive ginkgo]

that's also my best guess, but like sometimes it's just weird

[sullen cloud]

We were not able to derive a real pattern

[gloomy idol]

How do i split 1 conveyor into 4 equal lines?

[fast urchin]

ok, maybe I am stupid, but: How do I declare a variable as "normal" (positive bound) in lp_solve?
I only see several "special" variable definitions

[naive ginkgo]

like in that rubber setup: if do a single line for the oil it dies constantly, but if i split into 2 then into 2 again and then into 5s i'm ok.

but the water for the diluted fuel?

all in one line, no issues, always 600/m

[sullen cloud]

Yeah, same for me

But if I remember correctly, there are not many splits for water needed

as for oil

[naive ginkgo]

i mean there is 9/water line and 19/oil at max so i guess

the worst part of this is that my fuel plant is able to consume 100% it's input and stay at max power without any issue while all it's oil inputs are in one line

[sullen cloud]

How much oil input and fuel output/ min that is?

[naive ginkgo]

the old max for diluted fuel

[fast urchin]

lol, lp_solve is fast

[naive ginkgo]

hold up

they changed the fuel consumption rate

wasn't it 15 before?

[fast urchin]

Like the same problem which choco couldn't really solve in eternities is solved in like a second with lp_solve

[wind spade]

yeah they changed it from 15 to 12

[fast urchin]

thanks @wind spade for that pointer!

[sullen cloud]

my ‚old‘ and still current turbo fuel setup is maxed out for 780 sulfur and coal input.

[naive ginkgo]

that probably explains why my power is stable

[wind spade]

indeed. It was around 30 times faster than solving it in browser even including the time it took to send and receive the data

[bleak coral]

oh is that part of why your tool is faster than satisfactory calculator?

or is it all the logistic stuff it solves?

[sullen cloud]

Oh, and greeny. Many thanks for awesome work in such a short time re u4, again.

[fast urchin]

is there lp_solve for the browser or have you written something for that yourself?

[wind spade]

well it's mostly due to me not rendering the whole graph including splitters

[iron prairie]

Oh, and possibly odd question: is it easy to make the calculator optimize for potentially odd goals like "make the factory needing the most belts"? There are not-serious questions the framework could answer.

[wind spade]

I've used javascript-lp-solver, which was super slow and for U3 it already couldn't handle the calculations

[fast urchin]

ah, ok

[bleak coral]

imagine solving for the even more complex items now with nitrogen

[torpid robin]

Yea thanks for not doing the splitters lol . With how I use your tool Itl break something wicked lol

[iron prairie]

(and, if I understand: greeny is running the calculations on his server rather than having your own browser run the calculations)

[naive ginkgo]

welp time to add a few fuel generator and hope my power doesn't go out it's fine my coal generators can boot up the factory .. i think

[torpid robin]

All hail the brilliance of greeny

[wind spade]

even without the rendering I think I'll be faster

[wind spade]

making the most belts = making the most resources, right?

[iron prairie]

Including intermediates, yes.

[sullen cloud]

Just Adding generators wouldn’t lead to a blackout. Just check if the production is constant

[bleak coral]

if they increased the burn time of the fuel in generators, did they also increase the burn time in vehicles?

[iron prairie]

Like, for giggles, I calculated that on U3, you can make over a million screws/min, because Satisfactory is best enjoyed as a slideshow.

[iron prairie]

Yes. More accurately, the energy content of fuel got buffed.

[torpid robin]

Pity they didn’t do it to turbo fuel

[wind spade]

not sure how easy would that be, and for obvious reasons it isn't really high priority here 😄 but technically it could be possible to do

[bleak coral]

oh ok, didn't know if there was an actual MJ component they buffed or if they directly changed the burn time

[torpid robin]

Actually no . Thatl suck more fuel gens lol

[bleak coral]

lol like turbo fuel isn't already broken enough

[torpid robin]

Well with how much coal all the new spelevator parts use . It ain’t as good as it was lol

[wind spade]

burn time isn't really something they have ingame. They only have generator power production and fuel energy. Burn time is a derived property that's calculated for humans to be able to see what does the setup actually do 🙂

[torpid robin]

I maxed coal out last night on the calc

[bleak coral]

dammit all these pings are hitting my phone lol

I'm on the computer, stop it discord!

[torpid robin]

But you like the attention

[iron prairie]

I'm not sure I would characterize turbofuel as all that "broken".

[torpid robin]

Quick everyone reply

[torpid robin]

Strong is a good word for it

[sullen cloud]

Maxing our ingame building all that stuff is a whole different story

[fierce ruin]

it works

[bleak coral]

oh I just realized my advice about using petrocoke for excess HOR in vanilla systems is now completely dead

[iron prairie]

Relative to its inputs (i.e. regular fuel, compacted coal) and subtracting the extra processing costs, even in U3 it's only about 50% better: you could get ~2/3 as much energy from regular fuel and compacted coal plants.

[bleak coral]

fuel will just be better, period

[fierce ruin]

lol

[bleak coral]

more energy and the generators effectively sink it

[fierce ruin]

not really since overflow is not stable

[bleak coral]

generators run at 100% now, no overflow needed

[fierce ruin]

it may create "false capacity"

[iron prairie]

Are you sure? In U3, I know petrocoke produced more energy than residual fuel. I'd have to re-run the numbers with the new 750 MJ energy of fuel.

[bleak coral]

I'm pretty sure, it was close enough that any buff to fuel would flip it

but yeah we should probably run the numbers

I was already gonna advice fuel on the simplicity sake because the 100% uptime of generators meant it was simpler to setup than going to find water and now effectively sunk the excess fuel to not stop up the other side

@wind spade this won't solve, I'd expect it to take the HOR and turn it into fuel https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=inP7ZtmcD9GKMOi5hVTm

[naive ginkgo]

that's the goal, the 3 other fuel lines will remain intact

[wind spade]

is there a non-alt way of turning HOR into fuel? you haven't enabled any alts

[bleak coral]

yes residual fuel is vanilla

the parameters of the solve is for new oil setups that only have vanilla recipes

[wind spade]

hmmmm

[iron prairie]

If I did the math right, while the margin is now very narrow (3% more energy), petrocoke is still every so slightly better for generating power than residual fuel.

[bleak coral]

interesting, that's the net gain right? with power drain from water extractors etc.

[wind spade]

that seems like a bug indeed, however I have no idea why is that happening 😦

[bleak coral]

seems consistent, not just fuel problem
example 2 of the bug: https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=MBnp53t9RK4BN2evjnT4

guess it's related to byproducts somehow

[iron prairie]

120 HOR makes 360 petrocoke, which has a raw content of 64.8 GJ. Subtract out 5.4 GJ for the petrocoke refineries and 6.48 GJ for the water extraction, and you get 52.92 GJ of net energy from 360 petrocoke.

Similarly, 120 HOR makes 80 residual fuel, worth 60 GJ, minus 3.6 GJ for refinement, and I get 56.4 GJ of net energy.

Either my first round of math, or my second round of math, but one of those two has an error because they disagree.

Ah. The second round: I found my error. So it is 56.4 GJ per 120 HOR for residual fuel, 52.92 GJ per 120 HOR for petrocoke, with a 6.6% advantage to residual fuel.

[bleak coral]

So the second round is right? I can run the numbers too to double check

[iron prairie]

Given that, unless you're willing to underclock, residual fuel has now overtaken petrocoke, and is just generally better for anybody who has the HMF/computers/motors/quickwire/rubber to spare for fuel generators.

[bleak coral]

that's what I thought, though the materials is an interesting point

someone first setting up their oil maybe not have the parts spare (even handmade not automated) to make fuel generators

[iron prairie]

I had recent painful experience with the materials for a 4000 turbofuel/min power plant, so I'm keenly aware of it.

Also, now that I think about it: your first oil plant will be before you even have the technology for fuel generators.

[bleak coral]

true, though the solution may actually be coke -> sink then switch to residual fuel when you unlock it

cause fuel generators aren't hard to unlock

[torpid robin]

If you are maxing things out . And seeing as power runs 100% now . You should actually turn your coke into steel

[bleak coral]

I'm glad this a consideration now, a much more interesting place to be than just "petrocoke is better"

[torpid robin]

Obviously this depends on how big you plan on going

[fierce ruin]

or filters

[bleak coral]

oh these are musings for early setups, but yeah lots of interesting options if you have waste HOR and I'm glad residual fuel is now a part of them

[fast urchin]

Now with lp_solve, I could finally attempt my first try at sorting (still Update 3) alternative recipes: https://pastebin.com/CdTCFfME
I basically looked at all the items needed in either milestones or for building, tried to get one producer for them, and then tried to see how many producers (for each) I could built.
Then, each alternative recipe had the value for me of the average of ([How many producers I can have having only this recipe]-[How many can I have with only standard]) and ([How many can I have with all] - [How many can I have with all except this])
It's not perfect, but a start

I also excluded anything nuclear, I don't like the waste

(using Miners MK2 I should add)

The synthetic fabric stuff obviously is on top because you can't produce some stuff without it ...

[bleak coral]

@iron prairie just for thouroughness I double checked the math, and also got an about 6% advantage to residual fuel vs coke:

From 120 HOR
Coke:
Raw power: 1080 MW
refinery power: -90 MW
water extractor power: -104.61664MW
Net power: 885.38336

Residual Fuel:
Raw Power: 1000 MW
Refinery Power: -60 MW
Net Power 940 MW

that's assuming the water extractors are 5x 100% clock + 1x 40%, might be able to make them even or have petrocoke come out on top if you mess with water extractors

[iron prairie]

I usually just treat water extractors as "10% off of the sticker energy content". At 100% clock speed, 3 water extractors consume 10% of the energy generated by 8 coal generators.

[bleak coral]

true, but 14.4 coal generators isn't exactly divisible by 8, so I thought clockspeed was relevant

[iron prairie]

"10% water loss" was quicker for me to calculate, so that's what I did. It works for all coal generator fuels, with the assumption of no underclocking.

[crisp pelican]

I've been updating a spreadsheet that looks a that sort of stuff. Still need to fully merge Nitrogen Gas into it and haven't updated anything outside the Recipes tab yet https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bLBBJhF8mSs1CuvA55yKT89iESB3GkGVji66VDa14y8/edit?usp=sharing. Still need to reconfirm the recipe for Uranium Pellet if it's still in use, as it's still part of the Infused Uranium Cell alternate

[torpid robin]

If you are talking about update 4 there is no uranium pellet

[crisp pelican]

Yeah, thought that was the case. I haven't re-checked them all in game, have been running off Satisfactory Tools

[torpid robin]

That is accurate

Any off there is right so you don’t really need to check in game

[crisp pelican]

Cool

Means I can spend in-game time redoing my mall & setting up a drone field. I may be over doing it but I'm planning on having a drone port for each item, so I can set up remote drone platforms as needed

[hazy fossil]

Is it more energy efficient to extract water through resource wells than with extractors?

[torpid robin]

Id say it depends on how far you gotta pump it

[hazy fossil]

Well, just to get it into the pipe, how much energy does it take compared to an extractor?

[torpid robin]

I think. Maybe the well .

Hold up maybe not

How many satellite nodes are there on a water well ?

[fierce ruin]

7 on a nitro, but it might vary

[cedar mica]

The extractor is always going to be more energy efficent, as you can place more then you need an underclock

[torpid robin]

So power for a pressuriser is 150 with 60pm from a normal node

For 140 power form normal extractors it gives you 840 water

So from what I can tell . Say if the water has 7 nodes . You get 420 from a well for 10 more power

Compared to 840 from the extractors

Over clocking not included

[fierce ruin]

pressurizers are pretty power hungry

[bleak coral]

most of the water nodes are pure

like the vast majority

impure: 5
normal: 8
pure: 42

according to SCIM

[cedar mica]

I see wells more as a "if closer or if no other options" atm

[torpid robin]

Water nodes look like they vary

[torpid robin]

Yea just saw that

[hazy fossil]

Just trying to figure out the most energy efficient way of getting water to save energy to get the most points possible

[torpid robin]

So even if they are pure . You still get less

On a pure with 7 satellites . You get 840 for 10 more power

[cedar mica]

Water Extractors, is the most energy effiect. No contest, as unclocking wins every time

[torpid robin]

6 is 720 and most of them are 6

[torpid robin]

For a straight comparison you dont want to include any over or under clocking

But with extractors . You very well may need to pump

[bleak coral]

guess they're for convenience, not sure what to make of the locations TBH: https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/interactive-map?switchGameBranch=Experimental#3.25;90585;7334|gameLayer|waterWellPure;waterWellNormal;waterWellImpure

[torpid robin]

So you are starting to lose out the further you gotta go with them

[cedar mica]

We are comparing a limited mining spots vs unlimited placement. I will say clock speed is quite relevant

[hazy fossil]

Assuming no pumps are needed

[bleak coral]

some of them make sense, like grasslands, but a few them are in kinda weird spots

[cedar mica]

From what I saw durring a test, a fully overclocked well was 650W, just from the pressuricer.

[torpid robin]

Assuming no pumps . No over/under clocking . They are pretty much on par

[bleak coral]

I mean I guess it's nice to get more water spots without heavily changing the map, but also it's late game and I'm not sure many people were asking for more spots late game

by then you can just build wherever anyway

[torpid robin]

If you start talking over clocking the wells are better

If you start talking under clocking the extractors are better

I think it is a little situational tbh

[cedar mica]

So back to "If wells are closer or if no other choice". At least for water wells

[torpid robin]

Yea

I mean a couple k outta water wells right beside you ain’t gonna hurt lol

So curious . Cause I started again I’m not sure

Do you get water only out of the surrounding nodes . Or the actual well as well ?

It’s just the satellite nodes right ?

[hazy fossil]

Yes

[cedar mica]

I think the well production rate, needs to be increases, to make sense. At least for water

[torpid robin]

I agree with that

1050. 900 .750 depending on how many nodes there are . Isn’t actually that high

Unless they bring a mk2 out

[cedar mica]

Plus most of us build with more then a few pipes, so water wells dont fit many projects, by them self atm

[bleak coral]

what's used to make them?

[cedar mica]

Plastic + Rubber, rest is steel tech

[torpid robin]

Generally it’s better to move to the water for projects like that anyway

[fierce ruin]

does make a good temporary solution

[cedar mica]

Add an mk1 that only works on water wells, place it T3-4. That way the numbers make more sense

[bleak coral]

by the time you're in T8 you're not looking for temporary solutions

[torpid robin]

Exactly lol

[cedar mica]

T8, you quickly need 10+ pipes, so unless each satalite node gives a full pipe, its just a supplement source, to save you a little work. Assuming they are not in stupid places

[torpid robin]

They are in stupid places though lol

[bleak coral]

they're placed away from other water sources, so the intention is obviously to not be supplemental but give water access where there was none before

[cedar mica]

The once close to the red forest, can half make sense, for an Aluminium factory, but I dont see many building it there, do to the trees

[bleak coral]

I do wonder if CSS has a heatmap of popular building spots, because my gut feeling is they're all in spots that are kinda meh to build in

except maybe the grasslands ones

[cedar mica]

And the moment you start moving bauxite elsewhere, you got bigger water sources more available

[hazy fossil]

Okay
Ive got another question
What is the most point efficient product you can make using only iron
By point efficient I mean the product that makes the most points for each iron ingot it needs
Im assuming it would be smart plating since it’s the most complex

[fierce ruin]

the wiki has a page on this

also points are subject to change

[cedar mica]

Send smart platings and supplement with Xeno-Zapper/Rebar Gun

[hazy fossil]

Packaged water might actually be really efficient, since its worth 130 points, but u can make 2 canisters with 3 8 point steel ingots

[cedar mica]

You said only iron, not later tech

[hazy fossil]

Yeah, thats just something I found on the side

[hazy fossil]

stitched iron plates with iron wire is more iron efficient than the stock recipe right?

[fierce ruin]

I believe so check with SF tools

#welcome

[hazy fossil]

ok yeah it is

[upbeat tide]

Yes stitched iron plates + iron wire is a very easy solution. If you have pure iron ingot too its really nice

[wooden pond]

@gray kayak simple recipe now lol

around 390GW of power from maximum oil with 7800 resin to spare

[gray kayak]

Ye thx chief

Got it covered

[fierce ruin]

it always was

[wooden pond]

Turbo fuel

[fierce ruin]

compared to nuclear

[wooden pond]

fun to do the math :P

[fierce ruin]

that's not a fair comparison

[cedar mica]

With all the new stuff wanting sulfur, like batterys, max turbo is not really an option

[wooden pond]

Meh

[fierce ruin]

the first one uses the blender

[wooden pond]

with turbo fuel you can get 456GW of power

thats really not a lot to chose it...

[upbeat tide]

Your wastiing alot of potential fuel by using the standard fuel recipe

[fierce ruin]

also it uses the blend recipe which is not the greatest

[wooden pond]

Im using the calculator, thats where im basing all of this on

[upbeat tide]

Also you will need rubber, plastic, and some petro coke. Unrealistic to dump only into TF

[fierce ruin]

gross coke

[upbeat tide]

says somebody with a 2333.33m3 TF setup

[upbeat tide]

Coke is useful now in alu refinment

[fierce ruin]

I mean nothing was really changed just the default recipe

for alum

[wooden pond]

nuclear seams much more interesting for power anyway

[upbeat tide]

I beg to differ

Alot has changed for alu

[wooden pond]

no longer Ref simulator

[upbeat tide]

I hope they get the encased uranium cell alt fixed tho

[fierce ruin]

I was referring exclusively about coke yes alot has changed

[cedar mica]

You can do better on turbo fuel, if you dont insist on using all the oil

[wooden pond]

Oh wow coal got removed from the recipe

[fierce ruin]

gross blend recipe

it's an alt

[upbeat tide]

It was flipped

Coal is normal and coke is alt

[wooden pond]

ah

i wonder who makes steel from coke...

[upbeat tide]

Nobody

I hope

[cedar mica]

Without that blending recipe, you get about 8000 Turbo fuel, before running into sulfur issue

[wooden pond]

i don't want to touch turbo fuel seeing sulphur is now much more valuable

[fierce ruin]

I don't use sulfur for anything so I guess I'm alone on that

low level gamer

[upbeat tide]

What do you want to use sulfur for? Max plutonium build?

[wooden pond]

yeah thats what i would go for

not max but still

[cedar mica]

Not to mention, batterys for the drones

[wooden pond]

New cluster of bauxite nodes i see

[wooden pond]

yeah that to, those will eat up batteries

[kind crypt]

No homeopathic fuel ? 😮

[wooden pond]

to bad drones aren't to useful with it's 9 slots and batteries as fuel

[fierce ruin]

drones I see as mostly for the player or as a temporary solution a mix of trains and belts

[wooden pond]

yeah probably

but then again..

[bleak coral]

I see them being good for bringing building material to a new base from your main warehouse

[wooden pond]

i think id still use a supply train over drones seeing i can get a lot more items in a train then needing 20 drone ports

[bleak coral]

and transporting waste far, far away

[cedar mica]

9 slots is a decent amount, for stuff like turbo motors. So you can now make them closer to source, like in Red forest, then set drones to send stuff to mall

[bleak coral]

that too

[wooden pond]

it's highly situation dependant

[fierce ruin]

that's what I said

[wooden pond]

Trains is a "one size fits all" for transportation

no need to worry about it getting stuck in a path, on a train, no worry about it turning off bc you are running out of fuel, brings power with it pretty fast

[cedar mica]

Trains have quite a large footprint. Making a track up into the red forest, for 10/m turbo motors, is lot of work, compaired to a drone

[wooden pond]

hence the "one size fits all"

the downsides are that it sucks ass in the red and pink forest

and for very very low amount of item transportation where a belt doesn't make sense and a train doesn't make sense and a truck or tractor is just a waste

[bleak coral]

it's also a lot of work to set up a new track across a long distance

[wooden pond]

depends on how you play

lots of people follow the ingame paths

[cedar mica]

Trains have another downside, they use a lot of space right next to your factory. Even 1 wagon, is 5x4 foundation for station + track

[shy mason]

I have a track using concrete pillars to lift above the trees, as well as creatures and poison and radiation.

commute time around the loop isn't the greatest to be fair

[wooden pond]

yeah but the fun is tackaling the forest

building above just makes it ugly and boring unless built right

[cedar mica]

But hey, we have more options now

[wooden pond]

Yeah

[fierce ruin]

trains big distance and loads

[wooden pond]

Drones fits that void that trains, belts, and trucks can't in the "to long and to short"

[shy mason]

crater lake seems a good place to make batteries from the aluminum to service rest of red forest with the sulfur on top of the mountain to the north.

[cedar mica]

Speaking of, I wonder if drones works as item elevators, instead of the belt towers?

[fierce ruin]

it's more of a part train long distance but low load

[wooden pond]

i guess that works but remember the drone port is pretty big

[fierce ruin]

hmm

[cedar mica]

Its a question of pathing and clipping, at least for me

[shy mason]

though wonder how many drones you can service at a time with 240 batteries per minute from the 600 sulfur and basic battery recipe, the classic seems too much pain bringing in wire and oil for plastic refinement for first base

[wooden pond]

for like one or two looong conveyor lift then yeah that would look cool. but like 10 belts at a time? no

[wooden pond]

Drones can use a max of 5/min so do the math

[shy mason]

so 48, gotcha, can do most of red forest then

[cedar mica]

Drones can use more then 5/m, if you are crazy enough to make a round trip shorter then that...

[shy mason]

though 8 stacks of bauxite per minute is going to need multiple drone ports

[cedar mica]

Then again, if they go across the map, I assume the drones will use far less then 5/m

[wooden pond]

i think some sort of setup is gonna become popular with drones

one drone for the items one that carries batteries, then they both stop at a port in the middle to refuel them selfs

[bleak coral]

do drones need batteries at both start and end?

[shy mason]

only one

[wooden pond]

only one is needed

[cedar mica]

Drones consume battery in flight, like a truck would fuel?

[wooden pond]

Yeah

but they also work 24/7

most of the time

[cedar mica]

Except when waiting in line at the drone port 😛

[shy mason]

haven't seen one crash midflight yet so think they don't take off until they have enough for batteries for a trip

[cedar mica]

But think thats more visual, as it cant be planned for

[wooden pond]

don't they have a built in "battery usage/min" counter?

[wooden pond]

they actually crash like vechiles

if you are close enough to load them

[cedar mica]

Havent tested, but I think when the drone hovers over an occopied drone port, they recive power from said port. Would be stupid if they could run them self out of power, that way

[shy mason]

I build my factories up from the ground, so sticking a drone port at top above final product may suffice for a quick add on If i deal with batteries on receiving port

[gray kayak]

After a few more calculations, I've recently discovered my factory cannot support 1000 fuel generators

But i still can support 82 of em tho

That's like 12300MW per min

[torpid robin]

1000 is a big difference to 82 😂

[fierce ruin]

y 1000

[torpid robin]

Why not ?

I had 888 go big or go home

[gray kayak]

So get this... i can produce oil at 1500/min. That then geta refined by 250 refinaries to produce fuel at 1000/min. Which then can supply enough fuel for 82 fuel generators, which then can provide me with 12300MW.

But i seem to find a weird issue

[torpid robin]

Why don’t you move to turbo fuel and spend your time on that

[gray kayak]

250 refinary needs 7500 MW

[torpid robin]

You can get a lot more power from that amount of oil with turbo fuel

[gray kayak]

Ye but still

[fierce ruin]

296 gens from 600 oil that way

[gray kayak]

I don't understand why the power ratio is like thay

[torpid robin]

Imo it’s only a stepping stone

Not a large long term solution

You can get 133000 mw of power from 1800 oil

So from 1500 you could get 116000mw

[wind spade]

you can also use the diluted fuel recipe to get more fuel out of the oil

[gray kayak]

1 fuel gen needs at least 3 refinary to produce 150 but then 90 MW gets used on powering the refinery to fuel the fuel gen so i only get 60MW

[fierce ruin]

and also HOR

[torpid robin]

That’s a little rounded btw cause I can’t recall the exact number

[gray kayak]

The power ratio is so off

[fierce ruin]

and compacted coal

[gray kayak]

Ye that

[torpid robin]

Yea cause it’s a stepping stone

It’s like coal you don’t actually get that much power from it once it’s all set up and done

[gray kayak]

Ye but why is so damn steep

[wind spade]

that's wrong. 12 fuel/min use ~9 MW on average (assuming standard fuel recipe)

[torpid robin]

So better just to do a small set up to get you moving

[wind spade]

where did you get the 90 MW usage?

[gray kayak]

The 3 refinaries

I expected there to be a bigger amount i get from what i use

[wind spade]

3 refineries produce 120 fuel, so 10 generators

which means 1500 MW minus those 90 MW used

[gray kayak]

Last time i check 1 refinary produce 4 fuel per min

And fuel gens need 12 fuel per min

[wind spade]

40 fuel per min

https://u4.satisfactorytools.com/codex/items/fuel

it needs 4 fuel per cycle

but can do 10 cycles per minute (as the recipe takes 6 seconds to complete)

[gray kayak]

TF

OKOKOOK

[wind spade]

you probably just looked at the wrong number 🤷‍♂️

[gray kayak]

where tf did my mind go

[wind spade]

(you aren't the first and probably not the last)

[fierce ruin]

greeny self promotion

[gray kayak]

i feel like a dumbass ngl

i had a crisis

[bleak coral]

like greeny said, you probably just looked at the conversion rate, not the full /min rate

[gray kayak]

@wind spade thank youuu

[fierce ruin]

don't panic that's not how this game is designed

[bleak coral]

cause it's 6 oil -> 4 fuel + 3 resin

[wind spade]

well yes and no, I'd link anything that would prove my point, but other websites take a lot of time to find the correct thing 🤷‍♂️

[fierce ruin]

60 -> 40 + 30

[gray kayak]

@wind spade you have my respect

[bleak coral]

panicking and self-depreciation is not Satisfactory

[gray kayak]

Now if you guys don't mind ina go rewrite my entire layout plan realquicm

back to the drawing board

[torpid robin]

You mean yours is just the best one

[fierce ruin]

back to draw io*

[wind spade]

well for this I think it's more like "my is the one that I'm able to use the fastest to get the link I want"

[torpid robin]

So humble 😂

[fierce ruin]

I bet it uses a Greeny algorithm

[gray kayak]

WOOOOUUUU

[wind spade]

wiki loads for a long time (and not sure how much is it updated for U4) and SCIM doesn't have search on item page so I have to scroll down or use ctrl+F

[gray kayak]

750 MW usage and 12350MW produced

Heck ya

[wind spade]

there you go, nicer numbers 🙂

[torpid robin]

When I was looking last night . Wiki is missing a lot of info atm

[fierce ruin]

FAT

[gray kayak]

Math is such a pain when you have the wrong variables

Thx greeny. You are my lord and saviour

[wind spade]

can't really blame wiki for missing data, the update was gigantic and even with the few automations they have, it's still mostly manual work (and those guys want to play the game too! 😛 )

I just run a script and call it a day 😄

[fierce ruin]

greeny vs ondar

[gray kayak]

Who's ondar?

[wind spade]

one of the guys who maintain wiki

[gray kayak]

Ah ok

[wind spade]

also czech translations

[gray kayak]

Damn

[manic tartan]

Guys, is there a solution to ask to S-Calculator to make in sort that all building have 100% efficiency? (i know it already tries to be as close as possible, but not adjusting the number of the wanted item or using alternative recipes which we have to do manually)

[wind spade]

not sure which calculator site you mean (there are at least 4), but all of them show you builds at 100% efficiency iirc

[manic tartan]

Ooh? What are the others? I only know satisfactory-calculator.com

[wind spade]

check the pinned post 🙂

[manic tartan]

Thanks! 👌

[wind spade]

three are pinned, one is missing apparently (most likely because it's not updated too much and missing some stuff)

[manic tartan]

What i ask is probably very complicated though, but its hard to explain, im French

[wind spade]

but all of them show 100% efficient factories 🙂

maybe you're talking about machines running at 100% overclocking?

[manic tartan]

Yea, but some buildings are used only at 98% or 7% and so on, the calculator add more buildings to balance but thats not what i want. In fact i want that all building runs on 100% (which is clearly impossible with some recipes)

[wind spade]

yeah it's pretty much impossible in mid/late game. Also not really needed, underclocking can save you a lot of power and you can build factories that don't run at 100% OC nicely that way 🙂

ofc you can try it just for the sake of the challenge, but if you just want to play, it's wasting time

[manic tartan]

Not talking about overclocking, its hard to explain lol

[wind spade]

well building used at 98% means that if you underclock it to 98%, it will run at 100% efficiency

[manic tartan]

Its possible to do that? i thought that under/over clocking was 25/50/100 ect

[wind spade]

you can underclock to any number between 1-250%

on update 4 (experimental), you can do even decimals

so you can underclock to e.g. 23.5784%

[manic tartan]

Damn thats neat

Thanks for the tip thats very useful to me, im glad lol

[wind spade]

no problem

you can either adjust the slider, or even type the % manually

so there should be no problem setting the underclock to whatever value you need

[manic tartan]

In fact, what i want to do is super simple when i thought that was very complicated lol

[wind spade]

and you can also just leave the machine as it is, it won't matter too much, it will just sometimes shut down for a while until it gets enough resources, but you won't really lose anything

[fierce ruin]

math can do that

[unkempt quest]

pretty sure you can also type in the parts / min you want now aswell and it will adjust the %

[fierce ruin]

kinda

[wind spade]

yeah you could do always, just now on U4 it will no longer round to integer numbers

[fierce ruin]

depends on the version since that determines how % is calculated

[unkempt quest]

yeah i never used that was in update 3 but now in 4 its pretty sweet

[manic tartan]

Damn! Just tested the underclock, it just works! i thought that slider was just a filled bar

[cedar mica]

You sort of do. From when the machine gets resources till it starts up, takes a moment

[wind spade]

but if the machine is getting less resources than it's max possible consumption, it doesn't matter anyway

since the startup time is never so long that the machine fills up completely

[cedar mica]

Lets say the resouces coming in, is enough for 91%, but with startup time, it pushes it down to 90%. That adds up over time, so its better to clock it down to 91% and stick with it

[wind spade]

why would it push it down to 90%?

the resources coming in are still enough for 91%, if it starts later, it'll work longer since it will have more resources 🤷‍♂️

[manic tartan]

In fact its just that i'm fancy and i don't want to see queuing on my conveyors

[cedar mica]

Guess more math is needed, to see where it avarages out.

[cedar mica]

Thats sort of not possible, as even with balanced splitters, you will still have a que, somewhere

[wind spade]

not math, just logic. If it would work for just 90%, where does the extra 1% of items go?

[cedar mica]

In some chains, that extra 1%, can be byproduct

[wind spade]

then the machine runs with 90% input, not 91%

so it still runs at it's 100% capacity

[fierce ruin]

personal use or sink

[cedar mica]

Too tired for this kind of math. Will come back, if I dont find up I'm thinking wrong

[wind spade]

imagine simple case, single building, needing 100/min, but the belts only provide 90/min. If the startup time would make it use e.g. 85/min only, then the 5/min would have to disappear somewhere. Since resources can't disappear, it'll just fill the machine with those extra resources instead, making the machine run for longer, as it has more resource stashed, essentially removing that startup time delay

[cedar mica]

Aluminium, waste water added into production. Less production, means less waste water, which again lowers production, till it balances out somewhere

[wind spade]

again, it cannot be less production, since that would mean less consumption and therefore there would be overflowing items somewhere

unless you ofc loop the water into the same machine, then you indeed can't reach 100% capacity, but for completely different reasons than startup time

[manic tartan]

For a weird reason calculators doesn't give the same results, for the test (10 Modular Frames/min) ST gives 8 assemblers/ 16 constructors and SC 10 assemblers / 20 constructors

[fierce ruin]

depends on alts and how you work the settings

[manic tartan]

Nothing, no alts at all and settings appears to be the same

[fierce ruin]

SCIM works on belt speeds not sure if that changes it

SF tools is raw

[manic tartan]

gonna do the test ingame to see who is accurate

[fierce ruin]

SF tools is better

[manic tartan]

SF? I see ST (satisfactory tool) and SC (satisfactory calculator)

[fierce ruin]

this https://www.satisfactorytools.com/

[manic tartan]

Seems so

I test just for the sake of the thing

[fierce ruin]

it gives you raw numbers easier to work with

[manic tartan]

Mmmh i see now

Satisfactory Tools is way better since it tells you to redirect excess of production when SM create a new building

[fierce ruin]

I think you mean SCIM

[manic tartan]

ah yea sorry

[upbeat tide]

I just installed my 50th train station...think I got a bit of a train obsession goong on 😄

[glacial hemlock]

Wait until the game automatically name your stations 'train simulator'

[gilded maple]

I have plans for getting everything to my factory and getting a ton of resources there, I just realized I have absolutely no plans on what to do with it once it’s there😅 I mean I know what iron will be turned to steel and ingots and I know all the ingot math, but now I have got to figure out what to do with them

[torpid robin]

turn it into things

and stuffs

[gilded maple]

I also think I may have a mad rush to nuclear bc I’m done with making coal/fuel generators, so if I start this factory up it uses more power than I’m outputting I’ll have a 1,000 battery bank to carry me over through the mad rush

[upbeat tide]

Build it in stages. Setup the beacons, electro mag rods, and crysta oscillators first and build some storage near where you plan to make the nuclear rods. Then, make the uranium cells and the nuclear rod plant. You can save power this way by turning off the other plants since you already have storage of those items

Also, if you can hold out unti they get the encased uranium cell alt fixed, I would attempt that

[wind spade]

or removed 🤷‍♂️

[upbeat tide]

Or that too

We shall see either way.

[icy pumice]

did the recipe for heavy modular frames changed with u4?

[fierce ruin]

I don't think so

[upbeat tide]

No

[icy pumice]

okay

[tired raptor]

Does anyone know how many resources you need to make the maximum amount of Plutonium rods?

[fierce ruin]

refer to SF tools in #welcome

[tired raptor]

Is SF tools updated?

[fierce ruin]

select your product and use the dropbox to maximise

mostly

it's just recipes so

[tired raptor]

ok, last time i checked it was not, thats why i asked