math-and-meta

[tardy horizon]

is there a way to see how much energy my whole production cosumes at 100%?

[topaz hedge]

So the whole nuclear power and the new power setup.. man I hope they have a good reason for this and do a major balance chance on nuclear for it

[bleak coral]

not yet

[bleak coral]

I'm holding judgment until I see new nuclear stuff, they are doing major changes to it and said they're adding something to deal with waste

we'll see if it's enough, it's all still a big mystery

[tardy horizon]

https://prnt.sc/101m1we system's running well, until the cole drops

[topaz hedge]

Yeah, 100% fuel consuption/production, as unrealistic as that could possibly be. That's cool, it shouldn't effect properly built turbofuel setups, and it'll actually flatten out the powergraph a bit.

[bleak coral]

it'll also stop people from doing power setup wrong when they're new

because there'll be immediate feedback when you've done it wrong, rather than well... points at screenshot

[topaz hedge]

but with nuclear, man the reactors I was setting up are gonna produce so much waste at full load, it'll fill a ISC in just a couple of hours at the current way it works lol

[bleak coral]

again, they're changing a bunch with nuclear so I'm not gonna judge it based on current setups

[versed violet]

You can underclock if you do not use 100% of it

[tardy bough]

fuel repossessing could be a thing in 4

[bleak coral]

it's the wrong context

but yes I'm wary of how the changes will affect waste

[topaz hedge]

I'm not gonna sit and underclock 120 buildings, and then turn them back up when I need it. NOT practical. but you do you lol

[bleak coral]

there's no way to mass underclock, that's silly

what are you gonna go run around to a bunch of buildings every time you need to use more power?

[tardy horizon]

got an other setup too with i think at the moment 10 fuel generators and 5 raffineries, 4 more fuel generators in planning

[topaz hedge]

We'll see, I trust their setups, and that they know what they're doing with their game, but it's not gonna stop my bitching lol

[bleak coral]

oh yeah, we just don't have the context to complain/give feedback yet

[versed violet]

Personally, I'd just run all at 100% and turn off the ones unneeded. Maybe cut power cable, should turn off generators connected

[bleak coral]

it would be horrible with current nuke power, but we have no idea what U4 nuke power looks like

[bleak coral]

oh that's not bad, and actually viable with switches

if a bit more blunt than what we've got now

[tardy bough]

my guess would be waste would be reprocessed and used in new items

[topaz hedge]

Still not all that great of a solution in my opinion

[bleak coral]

oh wait nevermind that doesn't work

[topaz hedge]

I think the generators will keep running as long as a cable is connected though?

[tardy bough]

prob even if there isnt

[bleak coral]

you'd have to cutoff conveyor belts, as long as a generator gets fed it produces power

[topaz hedge]

no, if there's no cable connected it doesn't run

[bleak coral]

I think they run even if there's not, it's just right now when there's not there's nothing to produce power for so they stop

[tardy bough]

at the moment no but that is because there is now consumption

no*

[bleak coral]

well best case anyway they'd need to be cut off individually, which is also not a great solution

[topaz hedge]

They don't run if there's no cable.

[tardy bough]

switch still wouldent work

[topaz hedge]

but if there's a cable, even if it's connected to an empty powerpole with nothing connected. they run

[tardy bough]

bc there would still be a cable

[topaz hedge]

Mhm.

[bleak coral]

yeah, so no go on that solution you'd still have to disconnect and reconnect individual buildings

maybe giant battery fields, to run off batteries for a long time

[topaz hedge]

I mean you could, in theory, split up your fuel production lines to run banks of generators

[bleak coral]

like you get the energy from all those nukes, and you can still work for hours even after storage fills

[topaz hedge]

and then flip the switch on that line.

how practical that would be to build... well I dunno

[bleak coral]

yeah no idea the specifics of batteries yet, MJ capacity or MW discharge limit

[topaz hedge]

from what they've told/shown us, it's 100MWh or 100MW for 1 hour and they're supposedly cheap to build.

[bleak coral]

that's not a lot

I mean it's decent, but not like for something like storing nuke energy for hours on end

they seem pretty big space wise too

[tardy bough]

just need a few thousand

ez

[topaz hedge]

I mean, someone's gonna do eet.

[tardy bough]

so i havent actually done nuclear yet so what is the generation on that stuff?

[bleak coral]

next let's game it out video?

battery city?

2500MW per nuke plant

[versed violet]

Powerpole uses couple watts, which may make the generator run.

[topaz hedge]

geothermal is getting a update too, The menu is going to work as intended now lol. Instead of a flat 200MW production jace said they'll be 100-300MW and it'll vary throughout the day

[bleak coral]

I don't like it, just forces you to build batteries

[tardy bough]

no poles do not use power

[bleak coral]

just seems like extra busy work

[tardy bough]

@heady echo

[topaz hedge]

but, geo combined with the batteries.. will let you fire up just about any sized setup

As is, geo by itself couldn't start my turbofuel plant on it's own, with batteries, it can now

[vast jungle]

just build a TF powerplant that can start itself... its not difficult

[topaz hedge]

Sure, or build one that once it's running it'll never die.

[vast jungle]

it might still die when you try to consume more power than you have

[topaz hedge]

it won't

[tardy bough]

just have x generators needed to power it on a separate grid just for the plant

[topaz hedge]

not if you build it so it produces slightly more fuel than it burns.

[vast jungle]

you could go the "separate grid" thing, but especially for turbofuel this is quite annoying because you have to take care of three resources and their delivery to the powerplant

[bleak coral]

separate grid is what I call the failsafe method, cause it will never shut off as long as you get the delivery right

gonna need to find another source of blackpowder for my munitions factory though, it's currently using sulfur/coal that's unused for a turbo fuel plant

[vast jungle]

worst power shutdown is the one when you accidently killed one of the input resources to a powerplant... so it runs dry.3

[vast jungle]

maybe just find more sulfur?

[bleak coral]

oh yeah it's fine, I just need to find more of both

or actually they're using mk2 miners, and I'm not sure how overclocked they are

[vast jungle]

coal should be no trouble... but sulfur can be a headache, even with maximum overclock

[bleak coral]

may be able to just upgrade the miners/conveyors

[topaz hedge]

And here I am running around and placing mk3 miners on all the nodes lol

[bleak coral]

I didn't have mk3 at the time

[vast jungle]

I plan to wait with T7 until post U4

but one 15 GW turbofuel powerplant is hopefully enough until T7/U4

[topaz hedge]

Should be. depends if you build a big factory between now and then lol

[vast jungle]

I think my "max" consumption is ~ 10GW at the moment

[tardy bough]

this is why i like power checker mod it shows max possible consumption

[vast jungle]

I had 9 GW of production and was unable to start my powergrid... so its most likely 10 😉

[bleak coral]

and that's coming to vanilla soon, which makes me very happy 🙂

I'm big on flattened power and overbuild, so I'm not sure I'll make use of batteries

[tardy bough]

yea the new power system is what refiend power uses rn

constant max output

[bleak coral]

batteries will definitely enable more spiky power without the silent danger of buffers running out

[vast jungle]

yeah... as long as the average power consumption is fine, batteries can do the rest

[tardy bough]

this is very nice

[vast jungle]

time for breakfast... cu later

[bleak coral]

which is technically true now with storage + buffers, but you run two risks currently:

1. it spikes above max production because you can't see what your max power is and trips the grid
2. the average actually is too high and it silently eats at the buffer until it runs out and trips the grid

[vast jungle]

(had to see the video first)

[bleak coral]

with batteries you'll be able to monitor your reserves, and the new max power line will let you know if you can handle any peaks

[tardy bough]

what do you guys think is better ouposts or centralized factory

[bleak coral]

I think it's preference, outposts are just stretched out big factories

[vast jungle]

I like outposts more because they give you more variety in selecting interesting building places

[sand garnet]

Also better for performance

[vast jungle]

I am thinking about a global coppersheet production for A.I. Limiters and Silicon Circuit Boards (I don't see any other item up to T6 that needs them)... do you think 225/min. is a good start or should I aim for more (maybe 450/min)?

(I am planning to use steamed copper sheets)

[bleak coral]

There's no answer to that without knowing what you want to make and how much.

[vast jungle]

as far as I can see I only need them for AI-Limiters, Circuit Boards and Computers (because they need Circuit Boards) at the moment...
hmm....
10 (Caterium) Computers/min is 154 Copper Sheets/min... 200/min. if I want to keep some spare Circuit Boards...
10 A.I. Limiters/min. would be another 50 Copper Sheets/min.

both doesn't see that many, but I already at 250 Copper Sheets/min...

maybe aiming for 450/min. is a safer bet, especially because Tier 7/8 might need more Copper Sheets

oh, High-Speed Connectors also need Circuit Boards

[bleak coral]

Sounds like good reasoning to me. Super computers currently need copper sheets too and I wouldn't be surprised if they're still involved after the changes.

[vast jungle]

I know, but I have more than enough Supercomputers stored from my old factory and they will change in U4

I think I have at least a train-station and an ISC full of Supercomputers 😉

[bleak coral]

We might need super computers for new buildings, though it sounds like you have plenty haha

[vast jungle]

build my SC factory just before I got angry about the belt-chaos and started to decentralize my factories (connected by trains)

I am even looking forward to get at least one good use for Crystal Oscilators... I have yet to automate a single one of them... but I never saw a point in building them

[bleak coral]

I keep some spare, but just because make a little too much for my crystal computers and store the excess

they're being stored at 0.5625 parts per minute

[vast jungle]

I directly started with Caterium Computers...

COs felt so SLOW... so I tried to avoid them where possible (everywhere ^^)

but I think I got my numbers for my "copper/cat" base factory now...
240 Wire, 240 Cable, 240 Quickwire and 450 Copper Sheets per minute...

with the quickwire conversion rate, I wonder if I will ever run out of caterium ^^

[vast jungle]

having a use for Super Computers except Progr. Splitters also sounds nice...

[bleak coral]

especially since programmable splitters are rather limited usage

I mean it's not really their fault mixed belts are undesirable

[vast jungle]

yes... Smart Splitters are AWESOME... you could reduce them to "overflow splitters" and they would still be good.
But Prog. Splitters are niche hardware

even with mixed belts, normally a smart splitter is enough

[bleak coral]

oh and they're used in geothermal generators too, but you don't need a factory to make enough supercomputers for that

just a few manufacturers making it from storage or something

[vast jungle]

I have 15 GW of turbofuel... no need for Geothermal 😉

so now I have to decide which lake in the Crater Lake area... 🙂

[sand garnet]

hey @wind spade do you think any of the changes from yesterday's video about power stuff will affect al the recipe choices etc with residual rubber and whatever?

[wind spade]

not really, power production should be separate from rubber/plastic production anyway, now we have one more reason to do so

[sand garnet]

isnt residual stuff the preferred recipe though?

or am I mistaken lol

[wind spade]

no, recycled is preferred

[sand garnet]

right but it uses fuel in those loops

[wind spade]

yeah and you get fuel from diluted

[sand garnet]

so we will need to sink that in the future?

[wind spade]

no, you'll have two fuel setups, one for plastic, one for power

or one setup and split

[sand garnet]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=EqguV8KdtpN4v6icTEvX so I used this calculation

oh wait

it sends the fuel back to be converted to recycled plastic and rubber

[wind spade]

yeah

[sand garnet]

now I get it lol

thanks

[bleak coral]

it does open an interesting change to vanilla only setups though, cause now you can effectively sink fuel without extra steps

so a first oil setup could go for power primarily and do residual plastic/rubber into overflow into a sink

[river night]

this is true, you can sink fuel into power without fearing it overflows

[bleak coral]

and residual fuel won't be as bad compared coke because there's no extra steps to sink it

[river night]

its overall a rather positive change, only the nuclear waste complainers will continue to complain a bit more

[bleak coral]

still less power, but it'd be simpler cause you wouldn't need water

it could be a problem with nuke stuff, but like I've said before I'll wait for what nuke looks like in U4 to make up my mind

we already know nuke is getting lots of changes, so it's unfair to judge it right now without that info

[river night]

for sure. but even without changes, shouldnt you build a nuclear power station so that it can run on 100%, otherwise what happens when it actually does once you use all the power?

i do expect the changes to at least reduce the volume of waste after processing so its a much smaller concern

[bleak coral]

you should, but on really big setups they're made a bit with the assumption you won't be near 100% as long cause it's so much power, so they rely a little bit on the scaled power to not make as man ISCs

a lot of those are done just to do 'em, not cause the power will actually be used

also sad that it kills packaging overflow fuel setups, or my clever little turbofuel bleed setup where I take excess rubber and sulfur/coal for my munitions factory so that it works between 30% to 70% power usage

but overall it's for the better, so I'm fine giving that up

[carmine lantern]

is it possible on satisfactorytools to not have everything overclocked?

[frosty owl]

Most people UNDERCLOCK stuff actually

But yeah, it is possible. If one also manages overflow, you can even reach 100% efficiency still

[severe bluff]

Overclock miners underclock everything else

[frosty owl]

A non-overclocked power generator is a waste of space

[deep root]

Didn't they say waste was getting a rework though?

[deep root]

With power changes I might actually opt for overclocking all of mine now

[frosty owl]

As long as you have the shards to do so

[wintry aurora]

Wouldn’t overclocked generators suck more fuel? U4 could change how overclocking generators work.

[frosty owl]

Sucks when you run out, so keep a few tens shards in stock (or however much you find appropriate)

[deep root]

Fuel/power ratio is always the same

I make doggos find power slugs for me 🙂

[frosty owl]

1 fully overclocked generator sucks as much as 2 normal generators and make as much power. So it's a "build one, get two"!

[river night]

They did, but we dont know in what form, personally I hope (and expect) that you will not be able to get rid of it entirely

[frosty owl]

Once you get to 10ish, those shards really start coming in

[deep root]

I had more power shards in my last playthrough than I knew what to do with them

[deep root]

Even if the way to get rid of them is a form of recycling?! But the process involved is huge?

[frosty owl]

Part of the reason why I'm going for a "full OC" playthrough now :P
Also, lower machine count should mean less lag

[deep root]

Yeah, just started a new playthrough with 2 other friends, pulling 1 noob along with us (I've only unlocked T7 and not made anything in it, so I'm still noob myself) I'm planning on getting the doggo farm running as quickly as I can to get power shards for when we get fuel and just go crazy

I loved my first setup in the first game where I had 148 power gens on turbofuel, but this time I want less lol

Hang on...That math doesn't check out

if 100% = 150MW then 250% should = 375MW but it's only ~300?!

[frosty owl]

Yeah, they scale weirdly

Just think that 250% on a generator equals 200% on production machines

Only costing 1 shard more xD

[deep root]

So, for the decimal in game...I know there are "hidden" decimals on machines, but when does it become hidden

Is it normal rounding? So 9.04=9 but 9.05=9.1?

[frosty owl]

As far as I know, the decimals are treated correctly internally, but you cannot INPUT any decimal in the overclock field (it gets rounded to the closest integer, with related production speed)

To clarify, the PRODUCTION SPEED of items can be decimal. But it increases/decreases by fixed steps, since the CLOCK of the machines is in integers

[wind spade]

game does round it's decimals

[deep root]

So taking a fuel generator for example, 248% overclock = 9m^3 turbofuel and 249% = 9.1m^3 turbofuel is 248 not using 9.04?

[wind spade]

for exact numbers you can check https://www.satisfactorytools.com/codex/buildings/fuel-generator

[frosty owl]

So if it says it makes "5.347 items/min" what does it actually output?

[wind spade]

5.347 items/min

only displayed numbers get rounded

internally it's still the exact decimal

[deep root]

Always rounds got it, thanks!

[frosty owl]

Which display?

[wind spade]

e.g. recipe in a manufacturer

that one rounds to two decimal places iirc

[frosty owl]

There are 2 indications of output. I noticed the one where the recipe is is imprecise, but thought the one next to the clock was correct

[wind spade]

the "number of items" is always correct as it's always integer, "number of items/min" is rounded as it's usually a decimal

[frosty owl]

Yeah, I'm referring to items/min

[deep root]

This is actually using 9.049 not 9 like it displays, so I might starve the generator if I only produce 666 turbofuel with 89 overclocked fuel generators at 248%

Am I correct in my assumption?

[wind spade]

for power gens the overclock one is broken

so the top left one is correct

relatively...

[wind spade]

uses 9.04976 / min

[deep root]

This is what concerns me

[wintry aurora]

I thought your tool didn’t do power generators @wind spade ?

Or wherever that’s from.

[wind spade]

@wintry aurora that's codex

yes, from my tool, but I was talking about production tool not doing power gens

[wintry aurora]

Oh the codex in your tool? Ok.

[deep root]

If I produce 666 turbofuel, I can power 148 fuel gens at no overclock, but if I cut that in half to 74...I will have brown outs because I'm not producing enough fuel

When overclocking

[frosty owl]

For reference.
I thought A was the approximation of B, where B is the exact value. Or is B still a rounded value (even with numbers like the turbomotors or such complex items have)

[wind spade]

yeah, for U3 it's not a big deal as you most likely won't use 100% of your power, for U4 you may need to calculate the exact numbers and rather overproduce fuel a bit than overbuild gens

[wind spade]

those two should technically be the same number, neither of them is 100% accurate, both are rounded

[frosty owl]

IF you stay close enough to your power cap for long enough to run out, yes

[deep root]

Even at 250% it's 9.10584...

[deep root]

U4 is always power cap though

[frosty owl]

Dunno, staying clear of leaks for now

[wind spade]

you may want to move to 246% for U4, or even better - stay at 100%

[deep root]

Yeah, even using "all" 300 oil you can only produce 666.66 turbofuel, which still doesn't get you to 74 gens at 250%

[wind spade]

666.66*

[deep root]

Yeah fixed that

[wind spade]

yeah, it actually is 73.21305 gens at 250%

[deep root]

Yeah, so 73 at 250 and 1 at...Don't want to do that math honestly

Oh, holy crap I didn't realize I was talking with the creator of my favorite tool 🙂

[wind spade]

one at 43.1120%

so 43%

[frosty owl]

@wind spade Yeah, just slight differences, no big deal...
I can't believe I actually planned my TM megafactory with the game's numbers

[wind spade]

you're wasting tiny bit of turbofuel, but it's pretty close to ideal

[wind spade]

use https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production then 😛 xD

[frosty owl]

Turbofuel is always wasted unless one is at 100% capacity, anyway

[deep root]

Yeah, thanks...I would have done it when I was ready, but saves me a step knowing the exact clock speed 🙂

[wind spade]

I see that I need to finish that power production tool before U4 xD

[frosty owl]

NO! D:<
I'll use my brain till the bitter end!
||Though, I definetly will use it more from now on for checking recipes xD ||

[wind spade]

😛

[deep root]

OOO you have one planned? As in I can ask it how much fuel I need to produce to power X generators??

[wind spade]

yeah, it'll be integrated into the production tool, you'll be able to select "power" as one of the outputs

[deep root]

I'm generalizing of course

That was my one wish for the tool 🙂

[wind spade]

so you'll be able to do stuff like "maximise power from 200 oil and 100 coal" or "make a HMF factory, but also a factory that produces enough power to power the HMF factory"

but not sure when I'll be able to finish it

[frosty owl]

Soon™️ sounds like a good enough estimate, imo

[wind spade]

currently working on helping wiki guys automate wiki a bit 🤷‍♂️

[frosty owl]

Right. Ondar ought to stop inputting things manually

[deep root]

Great....Math doesn't work out on number of generators to number of rows with only 74 😦

[wind spade]

you can have 74 gens, just one underclocked 😛

[deep root]

Oh no I mean 148 gens was 16 rows of 9 back to back with a 10th gen on the end of the front to front rows (symmetry)

74 doesn't work out as well

[wind spade]

don't overclock gens then 😛

[deep root]

But but but!!! I wan't to!! stomps feet

[wind spade]

you are wasting your shards 🤷‍♂️

[wintry aurora]

Are you for or against overclocking gens in U4? Because apparently Vencam is for it.

[wind spade]

I'm against overclocking anything but miners 🤷‍♂️

but generators were always a little bit better to overclock than production buildings

[wintry aurora]

Though he's doing a 'OC everything' build.

[wind spade]

U4 doesn't really change much in terms of whether to overclock or not

[deep root]

4 rows of 18 gens with 1 gen on the end of the front to front rows, 74 gens with 73 at 250% and 1 at 43%...Got it!

[proper laurel]

Anyone else use Microsoft Visio to map out production lines?

[wind spade]

no, I just use my tool 🤷‍♂️

[deep root]

Trades length for width of setup and halves number of gens needed

[frosty owl]

You lost me at "Microsoft", honestly ^^

[deep root]

I use a program called Myeyeballs, works great

[proper laurel]

Lol

[deep root]

Only thing that sets them off is the fact that I can't be compact AND grid aligned with most machines

I have to choose one

[frosty owl]

Do you need (or like) to build that compact? ^^

[wind spade]

you never need to build compact 😉

[bleak coral]

So someday we'll have the real answer to what the max HMF limit is :P

[wind spade]

indeed

or even max sink points

[severe bluff]

is it worth it to use compacted coal over normal coal for power generators?

[wind spade]

depends on definition of "worth"

do you have extra sulfur lying around, are you low on power and want some extra before you start building fuel gens? then yes, go for it

[severe bluff]

just starting on coal and the closes coal to where i am making my main base is also the 3 pure nodes thats "close" to 2 sulfur nodes so i am thinking of turning it into a compacted coal factory

[wind spade]

if it's for power, then sure, go for it. Most of the other compacted coal recipes are pretty bad tho

[fierce ruin]

laughs in turbofuel

[severe bluff]

but turbo fuel...

[wind spade]

Most

[severe bluff]

lol

[fierce ruin]

laughs in fine gun powder

[wind spade]

no

[deep root]

One of those sulfur nodes is a normal + impure together at the bottom of a cliff

If you are taking about the coal next to the lake / waterfall

So not that easy to make compacted using both spots and 3 nodes

[severe bluff]

theres 2 normal nodes and 1 impure node

[bleak coral]

I guess if you've got sulfur nearby you could use compacted for power, but it's not worth seeking out sulfur to do it

[wind spade]

exactly what I said 😉

[bleak coral]

it basically just replaces 1 coal with 1 sulfur with a small efficiency gain, so if you need to go find the sulfur just go find more coal

or overclock the extractor

[severe bluff]

ohh i did not under stand at first lol

[bleak coral]

also fine black powder is good? it's straight efficiency gain for extra machines

[wind spade]

yeah but you don't really need to many nobelisks anyway

[bleak coral]

oh wait I just checked it actually uses less assemblers too anyway

it's better in every way

and wouldn't you like to use less sulfur on nobs and rifle carts and save it for other stuff?

[wind spade]

I would like to not use any sulfur on nobs, bcs I don't need them

[bleak coral]

right you don't play the game haha

[wind spade]

well that's not the point. I never understood why you need nobelisks, there's not too many encounters anyway and you can usually just outrun the enemies

[bleak coral]

if you want to be technical sure you can get away with a xeno zapper if you're really frugal, but nobs are nice weapons and good at clearing terrain

[wind spade]

people build skybases anyway

[bleak coral]

well there's no accounting for taste 😛

[severe bluff]

<-- does not build sky base... self imposed rules do not allow base to "float" must be ground or on support structure

add in that all foundations must be to the same grid = spending 10 hrs building road

[bleak coral]

oh man I could never do that, one grid is as unnatural to me as sky foundations

I shape stuff around the terrain

[severe bluff]

i still do but i play modded so i use modded foundations that have curves and stuff

[jade minnow]

I don't even understand the need to place every single foundation in the same direction... you only realize that when looking at the save editor, but never ingame

But there are many ppl that think it "has to" be that way I think... like placing every belt in 90° 😛

[fierce ruin]

how else are we suppose to heat up our spaghet

[keen oyster]

Unless you orientate the foundation using compass directions

[jade minnow]

Yeah I rather mean if you're running around and see the factory standing there I wouldn't care if it's pointing north

[tardy horizon]

Rework of my little Generator-Farm, 18 Generators, 2 MK2 Miners for Cole, 6 Extractors, no tanks or something like this, direct feeding water and coal - its running beautiful 😄 https://prnt.sc/10269tx

[edgy vault]

Anyone with an eye for measurements think they know how big the new battery storage units are?

[oblique hollow]

around 6 x 6 x 10 m

[edgy vault]

Ok, so I should be able to replace ISCs for coal storage with batteries for power storage fairly easily

I really hope they're stackable

[topaz hedge]

Probably won't need that fuel storage after the update anyway

[edgy vault]

Also, was there any screenshots that displayed any sort of capacitive values? Max power storage or max power in/out?

[oblique hollow]

yep. in the UI Overhaul video with Jace

it seems those values are still up to date

lets see....

Capacity: 100 MWh (1 Megawatthour = 1 Megawatt for 1 hour)
Input Limit: 100 MW
Output Limit: Infinite

[edgy vault]

Hmm, well at least they're not going to be output limited, or at least not with weird numbers. Thank you for the quick answers

[wind spade]

those values may not be final btw

they said most of the numbers aren't yet finished

[edgy vault]

100mw seems kinda like a low number given that batteries were (but maybe less so after the update) a fairly complicated, endgamey item

[oblique hollow]

it doesnt even use batteries

we even have the building costs for it

[edgy vault]

That seems... like an odd choice

[oblique hollow]

It uses wires, modular frames and steel beams.... for now

[wind spade]

which again may not be final

[oblique hollow]

thats why i added "for now"

[wind spade]

you type faster 🤷‍♂️

[versed violet]

If it requires endgame resources, it will not be available at lower tiers, thus a jiche item/bandoned

[edgy vault]

I suppose tiered batteries could be in order then too

[oblique hollow]

perhaps

Storage Mk 1 and Mk 2, who knows

[edgy vault]

I would almost prefer that to an ever growing portion of every factory building needing more space for energy capacity, although aesthetically it could provide some interesting builds

Ideally if the new power switch comes (plz make it so) with a conditional operation, than I literally won't need to change anything other than just installing them

[oblique hollow]

conditional?

there MIGHT be a priority switch.
What it will do and if we will even get it is up to CSS

[bleak coral]

Also batteries will hardly be required. They open up some new power logistics options and act as a more straightforward power safety net. But, it's perfectly reasonable to just set up safe, reliable power. Especially once we get the max power draw measurement in update 4

[oblique hollow]

the best use case i can imagine is as power smootheners

like with the geothermal, and other cases

[bleak coral]

They'll be good for folk who don't want to overbuild power and/or bother to flatten power draw

So their power is spikier

[edgy vault]

Imagine if all the geothermal are on the save wavelength and you get to hear your power shutoff on every dip

[bleak coral]

Real talk I already was meh on geothermal, now I'm probably never gonna touch it

It's too little power for the effort already IMO, and they added more work to it

[edgy vault]

If they lower the requirements, to be about mid game/around oil, I could see it being better recieved. Esp given that a lot of the geothermal spots are with spitting distance of oil

Like setting up advanced fuel? Use this geothermal here to help get it up and running

[bleak coral]

I mean even around oil one geothermal generator is only 33% more power than a single, solitary fuel generator

[topaz hedge]

that's my opinion of geothermal.. it should have slightly cheaper requirements so one could use it too jumpstart their large fuel gensetup that their coal grid might not have capacity for :/

[bleak coral]

Also give a small power buff, especially if they're gonna need more effort with batteries and such now

[topaz hedge]

Maybe. maybe not? with the power storage you could in theory jumpstart a pretty large fuel gen setup with just a few geysers.. but I suppose you could use the power storage and do the same with your existing grid

[bleak coral]

Yeah you could do that with batteries and coal too

[topaz hedge]

welp, I guess the only thing that'll make geopower more or less worth it then is if they double the amount they generate lol

[oblique hollow]

its free energy

you dont need to burn any resources to get energy from them

[wind spade]

yeah geo is already op

[bleak coral]

They're resourceless, but there's plenty of resources for power. They still cost time and effort to go find and attach to the electric grid. And now they'll need even more time and effort to set up batteries for. All for a meager 200MW each. Better to spend that time finding diluted fuel and then making fuel generators.

[iron prairie]

After spending hours setting up a DPF plant, I'm pretty sure that unless you're trekking halfway across the map to find a geyser, it's a lot less effort to build another geo plant.

[bleak coral]

Also it's a little disingenuous to paint them as "free" because just like any other power it comes from a limited number of nodes, sure it's not a resource on a belt but a geyser is a limited resource

[bleak coral]

You are to get anything of worth out of them, just grabbing nearby ones gets you nothing.

[edgy vault]

Unless they change how they connect to the node, using mods you can literally copy paste more geo thermals anywhere and they still generate power

[shy mason]

if the wavelengths are just offset on same frequency, the dips would be canceled by the rising of other springs, and you'd just have the avg with them all linked. If it's different frequencies, the storage may be necessary next to them.

[wind spade]

I don't think you'll need batteries for them. Sure they have variable output, but you'd need batteries only if you were using just geo for your power

[river night]

you would need batteries if you are trying to ride the line at near 100% usage

[keen patio]

But.. only a monster would do that >.>

[sand garnet]

??? why is this here

[fierce ruin]

is this no media?

[sand garnet]

no

this is the math and meta channel

[fierce ruin]

sorry

[sand garnet]

there's also no memes channel anywhere

[wintry aurora]

#satisfactory-memes ?

[sand garnet]

yeah but this was offtopic

some TF2 nonsense

[sinful vale]

team fortress or titan fall?

[sand garnet]

I thought TF2 was general for team fortress 2

[fierce ruin]

It's both

but I'm pretty sure team fortress is much more popular

[sinful vale]

sadly

[wind spade]

Transport Fever 2

[vast jungle]

sigh 45 "Pure Caterium Ingot" Refineries running at 100%... and it still takes forever to fill up a train station...

[tardy horizon]

Is it correct that way? I have 2 oil pumps at 5 refineries for fuel, 2 times crude oil to plastic and 2 times crude oil to rubber. I have the oil residue converted into fuel by a refinery. That makes a fuel production of 240 (all run at 100%). As a consumer I have 2 fillers for fuel canisters and currently 12 fuel power plants. That makes a consumption of 260 (here, too, everything runs at 100%). Now the "problem": I still have an overproduction of fuel, even though I'm actually 20 units per minute in deficit. Does that have an explanation?

is it because the plants don't produce 100% Energy so they don't consume 15/min?

[wicked tinsel]

most likely

scout the discs for recycled plastic/rubber

it makes dealing with it considerably better

[tardy horizon]

all of the 12 plants producing 70% +/- 5%

[wicked tinsel]

im assuming you dont have some random issue with height

[frosty owl]

250% for the win 😜

[vast jungle]

1000+ caterium ingots power minute seems to be enough... I would need more ore to get more ingots anyways

[fierce ruin]

so he said

[versed violet]

Anyone could check my numbers? Got 2 pure quartz nodes (480/min) and would like to process that onsite into quartz crystals and silica, so outputs results sum up to 480 again. I've arrived at 300 quartz into 180 crystals and 180 quartz into 300 silica. Is that correct?

[unkempt grail]

sounds right

[quaint sage]

I thought I had a lot with 10

[vast jungle]

I had a group of 3 Caterium nodes close together... so I setup a Refinery system that can work on all of them (with MK4 belt and Mk2 Miner)... thats why its 45 (no OC) 😉
but then, a single freight station for a train can store 3200 ingots, so filling up 4 train stations take TIME... lots of it

[quaint sage]

If you want your stations full, make fused quickwire ;)

Yes I know that's counterproductive

[vast jungle]

I yesterday finished a factory taking caterium and copper ingots and creates Wire, Quickwire, Cable and (most importantly) Copper Sheets... so I know what you mean 😉

(no, the first three are not for other factories, they are just for central storage)

[quaint sage]

When I last played I finished turning all that caterium into quickwire. Now have to find something to do with it...don't need that many AI limiters though. Caterium computer might be a good one

[vast jungle]

"Now I have a million quickwire... now what?"

interestingly I might need to establish a 3rd Copper mining area soon... I am running out of Copper Ingots quickly... never had the problem with Caterium.

and Quartz? I have yet to find a reason to build Crystal Oscilators 😉

and yes, Caterium Computer (and Silicon Circuitboard) is great 🙂

[oblique hollow]

@vast jungle

a number becomes an imaginary nimber if you multiply it with the imaginary unit

[vast jungle]

its called that way, but its not an unit like "meter" (as an example)...

[oblique hollow]

however, 1*i is ALSO an imaginary number

but 1 * i can be written as just i

[vast jungle]

not every number becomes imaginary if you multiply it with i

i*i = -1 😉

every rational/real number multiplied by "i" (or any negative square-root) becomes imaginary... and the other way around

[oblique hollow]

another name is the "unit imaginary number"

the point is, unit here does not mean a physical unit

[vast jungle]

yes

[oblique hollow]

it is THE unit, the defining piece

[vast jungle]

you could easily use sqrt(-2)... would give you the same.

but using sqrt(-1) is easier... thats why they gave it the symbol...

but to be fair, the name "imaginary" is horrible

there is nothing imaginary about complex numbers

[oblique hollow]

point is: the imaginary unit is indeed a number, its just a naming convention

[vast jungle]

yes... its a constant, like "e" or "pi"... but one thats not part of Q or R

[oblique hollow]

thats why making it sort of seperate from the boring, ordinary real numbers makes sense

since, yknow, it IS special

[vast jungle]

to be fair, "real" numbers are nothing that exists "in nature" either...

[oblique hollow]

Breaking news: numbers are fake

[vast jungle]

I prefer "they are parts of mathematics"... and mathematics is no Natural Science... because it doesn't use the Scientific Method.
Of course that doesn't change the fact that mathematics is the best tool we have for Natural Science 😉

[fierce ruin]

math doesn't use the scientific method.

many math proofs are crying rn

[vast jungle]

there are no proofs in the Scientific Methods... there are "Hypothesis" and "Theories"... both can be falsified.
you cannot falsify a correct mathematical proof

[oblique hollow]

science is "guesstimates" that are accepted

because nobody found a better guesstimate

[vast jungle]

natural science is about building models that predict reality...

models can always be incorrect...

[earnest chasm]

I'm pretty sure there are very natural reasons to use sqrt(-1) as the unit instead of sqrt(-2)

how would Euler's formula work if we defined i^2 = 2?

[vast jungle]

it would introduce a factor... but things would still work...

[earnest chasm]

yeah but that wouldn't be very natural would it

[vast jungle]

thats why "1" and "i" are similar special... you don't get easier than these two numbers (on the Complex plane)

still, "1" is more special than "i" I think

[earnest chasm]

yes, because 1 is still the multiplicative identity

i, the way it's usually defined, isn't an identity element, but it certainly is a natural pick for unit

though, there are other such "natural" picks, however, they're not in the form of some other negative root

[vast jungle]

what was it about the most beautiful part of mathematics? "e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0" ?

[earnest chasm]

yes, many consider it to be the most beautiful formula, cause it has a lot of fundamental constants in it

[vast jungle]

three crazy non-rational numbers and both the multiplicative and additive neutral element combined...

still, they could have chosen a much better name than "imaginary numbers" 😉

[earnest chasm]

that's true

[vast jungle]

but the people of this time were not sure these numbers are "real"

[earnest chasm]

also I'm not sure i is considered irrational

[vast jungle]

"irrational" is just "real" minus "rational"

so "i" is not irrational

[earnest chasm]

but you called it non-rational cause it's not a member of Q?

[vast jungle]

yes... rational numbers (Q) are something describing nature... and e/pi/i are definitely not from Q...

I tried to avoid "irrational" because it has a special meaning

[earnest chasm]

alright, that's fair enough

but complex numbers very much describe a part of nature as far as I'm aware

[vast jungle]

they definitely help to describe a lot of phenomena... but you could even argue that irrational numbers cannot be really found in nature, because at the smallest scales everything becomes quantized...

[earnest chasm]

whether space is actually quantized is an unsolved problem in physics

you could make the argument for uncomputable numbers

but I'm not so sure for the computable ones

[vast jungle]

we can still hope for a good theory of quantum gravity coming along and solving all these pesky issues with the smallest scales

[earnest chasm]

let's hope so

also, just in general, as I think you stated previously, I think you need a different definition to consider naturality in math

[vast jungle]

so we moved from "Satisfactory" to "math-and-meta" and slowly getting towards "general-off-topic" 😉

[dull bolt]

Use this imaginary number to optimize production... duuuh.

[earnest chasm]

is math philosophy considered on topic?

[dull bolt]

Not really 😄

More about discussing recipe ratios etc.

[vast jungle]

flight paths of hypertube cannons? Hmm...

[dull bolt]

Parabolic curve no?

[earnest chasm]

use quantum annealing to optimize some problem idk

[vast jungle]

its always fun to see how bad some numbers in the game (e.g. stack size 500) can be for things like Manifolds...

[earnest chasm]

ngl for a second there I thought you meant the math kind of manifold

in which case damn that's some hardcore strategy

[vast jungle]

LOL

[fierce ruin]

high stack size is good for storage tho

[vast jungle]

and I really don't like to build dedicated small groups of machines... so I ended up with a 16-machine manifold producing Wire for an 8-machine manifold producing Cable...

that took an eternity to fill up

[fierce ruin]

do you run it as you construct it?

[vast jungle]

no, at that time I had not connected the whole thing to the train-station that would deliver the ingots

[fierce ruin]

or use lower belts to each machine, lifts look identical too

[earnest chasm]

having looked up what manifold actually means in this context, why does it help compared to more normal forms of routing?

I understand for the more complicated ratios but wires to cable? really?

[vast jungle]

because you can feed a line (or double-line) of machines just with a line of splitters (and collect with a line of mergers)

[fierce ruin]

it's simple and expandable

[vast jungle]

its very easy and compact to setup

[fierce ruin]

not for complex lines like alum

[earnest chasm]

is it really expandable?

if you run everything on one line, won't that bottleneck your throughput massively?

[vast jungle]

you have to keep each manifold below the belt limit

but thats quite long for most things

[earnest chasm]

🤔

[vast jungle]

in my case it was a production complex to create 240 Cable/min. from Copper Ingots

[earnest chasm]

is it truly more compact than just going constructor to constructor directly?

[vast jungle]

so it was 2 lines with each 8 constructors producing Wire from Copper Ingots... and one line with 8 constructors producing Cable from the produced Wire... very nice rectangle and compact structure

[fierce ruin]

how do you do it, load balance?

[vast jungle]

you need 2 constructors of Wire to feed one Constructor for Cable... so just adding them behind each other doesn't work

I used just a line of 8 splitters, with constructors for Wire left and right... and then combining all 16 outputs with mergers and feeding it into the 8-splitter line that goes into the Cable constructors...
perfectly efficient as soon as everything is full

[earnest chasm]

it sounds extremely alien

it makes sense but man, am I not a fan of stacking splitters in a row

[vast jungle]

in this case load-balancing would have been "easily" possible (divide by 8) but with quite a bit of necessary space to reach the 8 constructors

[fierce ruin]

I don't do that exactly I use lifts to hide the belt work beneath the floor

[earnest chasm]

that's kinda smart actually

having started building from the ground, I never really considered that you could put stuff underneath the floor tbh

and just have a floor for conveyor spaghetti

[vast jungle]

I put a "crawling space" floor below each of my factory floors

[earnest chasm]

somewhat on that note, more wall sizes when

[vast jungle]

very nice to put in belts between "more distant" parts of your factory floor

[earnest chasm]

but yeah, you still need a 16 wide constructor line

[fierce ruin]

It was after a lot of resetting

that's just the ratio

[earnest chasm]

16 wire -> 8 cable

what kinda arrangement are you smoking to make it more compact

[fierce ruin]

balancers work better with more delicate beltwork like container lines

[vast jungle]

a block of 8x3 constructors... and just one "plane" of belts

no crawling space or lifts necessary

[earnest chasm]

what

pic related?

[vast jungle]

I could make a picture this evening... not having access to the game currently

[fierce ruin]

#screenshots scroll up for an expl of mine if you want

[earnest chasm]

I checked your image posts and I ain't seeing it chief

link to the message?

[fierce ruin]

#screenshots message

you can see the upper level input belts, because it's under the glass, but the lower ones are overhead manifolds.

[earnest chasm]

is this a relevant schematic

(taken straight from the wiki)

[vast jungle]

I built the reverse of the double-manifold (middle in, outer-part out) and connected it to a single normal manifold

[fierce ruin]

yes, mine is a reversed double manifold, so flip s and m

[vast jungle]

yeah

and the nice thing with the Copper => Wire => Cable was that I need 8*2 Constructors for the first step (double-inverted-mirrored manifold? 😉 ) and one normal manifold to take the combined output and create cable from it

[earnest chasm]

okay now I get the concept better at the very least

[fierce ruin]

it puts pipes and belt inputs neatly together, rather than splitting them, hence taking more time to build.

[earnest chasm]

yeah, looking at the schematic I remember building these in factorio

I'll have to retract my statement about it being alien, oops

[fierce ruin]

Though, I recommend sending products opposite of where the ingredients are coming from.

[earnest chasm]

any particular reason?

[fierce ruin]

less entanglement

[earnest chasm]

depends on how you arrange it

I remember doing that exact thing in factorio for main bus lines so I'm somewhat unconvinced

[errant sable]

wouldn't a double manifold with input on the inside be more space efficient?

[earnest chasm]

though, making a main bus doesn't seem like a very encouraged strategy in this game

[fierce ruin]

It also allows for an input side and an output side, so in theory you could add more lines if you want

[earnest chasm]

would assume it depends a little bit on what you want your ratios to be

[wicked tinsel]

there are no priority mergers so main bus kinda doesnt work in here

[earnest chasm]

this remains true for having output go back the same way, and it has the added benefit of not moving the output point

no priority mergers?

[vast jungle]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WkUwLWXTC1-KCWiheZLjne-oPIbI4oPH/view?usp=sharing

[wicked tinsel]

no priority mergers

you can workaround it with spaghetti but its pain in ass to build

[vast jungle]

this is my "Cable" setup

[quaint ridge]

Why don't you guys like busses ?

[earnest chasm]

you haven't enabled link sharing on that drive link

what's a priority merger

[vast jungle]

had to click on "Done", please try again

[earnest chasm]

you mean choosing which side to prioritise on a splitter?

[vast jungle]

"bus = multiple belts" or "bus = shared belt with multiple item types" ?

[fierce ruin]

busses tend to get very laggy.

[jade minnow]

What do you need priority mergers for? Any example?

[earnest chasm]

a main bus is a massive multi-belt structure that basically runs all your resources along the entire base

I think editing link sharing permissions gives you a new link btw

as the link still requires asking permission

[vast jungle]

I went from "huge base" to "distributed factories with smaller input/output"...
so my "buses" became railway lines/stations

[quaint ridge]

I don't have any lag issue with my bus

[wicked tinsel]

in factorio you make main bus like this:

you got pile of belts so you transfer more resources than possible on single

[earnest chasm]

example of a more developed main bus

[vast jungle]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WkUwLWXTC1-KCWiheZLjne-oPIbI4oPH/view?usp=sharing

sigh... not my day

[earnest chasm]

ah I see

[vast jungle]

better ?

[wicked tinsel]

you split it to parts of factory, when those stop consuming resources completely, it overflows to next segment

[earnest chasm]

very, thanks for your patience

[vast jungle]

you are welcome... I hope the diagram clears up what I did

[earnest chasm]

and you're right, that is compact

I'll have to consider it for smelting setups

[fierce ruin]

it's quite nice, but I'd prefer the cable splitters in the opposite direction, just a me thing tho

[earnest chasm]

and yeah about the main bus, but you also usually have balancers running along the bus line as well

[wicked tinsel]

not in factorio at least, thats the point of modern main bus

you always push resources to one side and consume from it

[vast jungle]

I don't think the Factorio bus design works well in Satisfactory... and its not necessary in Satisfactory anyways because we have 3D

[earnest chasm]

that is entirely correct

[quaint ridge]

I've never played Factorio so idk

[wicked tinsel]

it doesnt work here since its not possible to pull resources from additional belts while merging them with overflow from branches

you would need a pile of mergers and priority splitters and its pain to build

[vast jungle]

why would I even want to "re-merge" the remaining stuff?

[earnest chasm]

you do need to keep your bus somewhat balanced across its conveyors

[wicked tinsel]

because you want to use those resources for next parts instead of having them idle at source

[earnest chasm]

also that^

[wicked tinsel]

the idea is that you build factory in sequence of most desired to least desired components

[vast jungle]

you can just continue all belts, similar to a manifold

[wicked tinsel]

when something backs up, it goes to next part automatically

[wind spade]

in satisfactory not too many products share intermediate ingredients. Also production and consumption rate is constant, so there's no need for bus. It's also pretty hard to build (a lot of materials wasted), even harder to track how many items do you have left on it and compared to factorio belts have pretty low throughput, so you need a lot of them. It's a different game so the build style is different too 🙂

[earnest chasm]

belts have less throughput in this game?

[wind spade]

there are way better alternatives to busses

[wicked tinsel]

ofc they do

[vast jungle]

Trains! 😉

[earnest chasm]

I was of the opposite impression

[fierce ruin]

or you could make a hub a of industrial storage containers to merge it

[wind spade]

fastest satisfactory belt is slower than slowest factorio belt

[wicked tinsel]

factorio's fastest belt is 2700 items per minute

[earnest chasm]

oh yeah

[wind spade]

780/min

[vast jungle]

trains can use the same "railway" infrastructure to go from anywhere to anywhere...

[earnest chasm]

I was confused cause they use different time units

[wicked tinsel]

thats satrisfactory at 780

[wind spade]

ah

sorry, can't read 😄

[wicked tinsel]

and 780 is super end game here

i expect most players reach around 480 ones

[quaint ridge]

Hmm I guess we're not playing the game the same way ^^

[wind spade]

no matter how you play, busses will introduce a lot of issues that you will earlier or later hit and have to resolve

[earnest chasm]

Though wdym by production and consumption rate being constant? Natural resources disappearing?

[wind spade]

yeah, if you connect a belt to a miner, you have guaranteed output forever

[fierce ruin]

*with power

[wicked tinsel]

also in factorio, you got much more stuff to produce

since buildings are their own items there

here you need to make like 5 to 7 main components and your factory building factory is pretty much done

[earnest chasm]

Yeah I've noticed this game feeling a lot more relaxed than factorio did

[wind spade]

busses in factorio are mostly used due to the fact that miners run out and production is not constant (e.g. you have malls for items), so there it makes sense to essentially do a giant manifold (bus) and split unknown amount of resources between unknown amount of consumers

none of that is needed in satisfactory

[wicked tinsel]

nah, input exhaustion in factorio is not really relevant

[earnest chasm]

I was of the idea that unknown number of consumers was the biggest part, cause you don't know where next is gonna need some iron plates or whatever

[wicked tinsel]

the problem is that you got a lot of small factorioes on the bus

[fierce ruin]

just add up your rates and subtract when you use some

[earnest chasm]

rates are of lesser importance in my experience

[wicked tinsel]

there are no sinks in factorio, most of your production will back up

and thats by design

[earnest chasm]

what's much more important is space

because of underground conveyors being (comparatively) extremely limited, and everything else having to be in one plane, it's a lot harder to spaghetti your way out of lack of space

and the solution will almost always just make it worse

[wicked tinsel]

nah, space is unlimited in factorio

you almost never face the issue of something being unplaceable

[oblique hollow]

mind you that satisfactory adds a 3rd dimension on top of it all

[earnest chasm]

space is extremely limiting if your factory is poorly planned

[wind spade]

that's why you shouldn't calculate from start, but from finish. "what can I do with my 800 iron plates" is bad question to ask, you should rather ask "what do I need to produce heavy modular frames?" (or any other final product)

[wind spade]

you don't have to put everything in one factory

[earnest chasm]

no, but in at least my own first few factories, it was practically fat chance that I'd be able to build real outposts with the abysmal production rates that resulted

[oblique hollow]

thats actually a bad idea anyway, because a one-for-all factory suffers from poor expandablility and cluttering

[wicked tinsel]

nah, thats a bad advice. you should plan your factory with expansion in mind so that you can handle tier unlocks, instead of having to scrap part or most of line

[wind spade]

again, you don't have to upgrade one factory, you can just build others

[wicked tinsel]

like you should consider that you will get faster belts and miners soon so you should reserve some space for more smelters

[vast jungle]

no need to put all production of "Item X" in the same place

often (in Satisfactory) its easier to produce locally

[wicked tinsel]

you arent going to go to new outpust just because you unlocked faster belts and can pull more from miners

[wind spade]

what I usually suggest is to make a separate factory for anything new that you're producing, ideally somewhere around the nodes you need for it

[oblique hollow]

thats a hard feat to do anyway since you would have to run stupidly long transport lines back to the production site

and then back

in case theres other factories there

[earnest chasm]

monolithic megafactories > all

[oblique hollow]

hell

[earnest chasm]

I don't wanna go outside

just make more floors lol

[wind spade]

that's your problem 😛

[oblique hollow]

scared of the itty bitty spider-cats?

[vast jungle]

Satisfactory has a beautiful map with lots of interesting places to build stuff... you miss out a great deal of fun 😉

[earnest chasm]

no, I'm scared of long ass trips

[oblique hollow]

also: exploring means possibly finding alternate recipes

[fierce ruin]

produce locally gather closer and closer to a base

[earnest chasm]

luckily in the group that I played in, other people were doing the exploring lmao

[wicked tinsel]

to be honest, i wouldnt mind being able to demolish much more of the map decorations

[vast jungle]

Trains are a FAST and reliable way of traveling...

[wicked tinsel]

there is always some random big ass rock in the middle of place

[oblique hollow]

and if you ever get lost or bored, you build a YEET Cannon and are out of there in 0.1 seconds

[wicked tinsel]

i guess thats why most people build floating stuff

[vast jungle]

I disagree... both with "map obstacles are bad" and "most people build floating stuff"

[earnest chasm]

floating stuff doesn't look all that cool

[oblique hollow]

add some pillars and boom, 100% better

[earnest chasm]

exactly what I was gonna say

[vast jungle]

or just build in between what landscape gives you

[oblique hollow]

or do both

[wicked tinsel]

what gameplay purpose does big white rock and poison zone near the starting grasslands iron/copper deposit serve

[vast jungle]

built in canyons... build in caves...

[earnest chasm]

we did that, and now we can't add more iron rod production

[wind spade]

what purpose does better graphics serve?

[oblique hollow]

a e s t h e t i c s

[vast jungle]

you can easily add more iron rod production elsewhere...

[wind spade]

exactly

[vast jungle]

a plain field would be just boring

[earnest chasm]

yeah but I put a lot of effort into building an aesthetically pleasing megafactory warehouse and I'm gonna use it damn it

[vast jungle]

you CAN build up in the sky, but the landscape on the bottom gives you more options

[wicked tinsel]

but the point is not to remove it completely, its to have nobelisk or something destroy those 🤷‍♂️

[fierce ruin]

#satisfactory

[wind spade]

well that's the challenge, you don't remove all of it, because otherwise it would be just flat grounds building 😛

[vast jungle]

we had the same discussion some days ago with the map developer present... making everything destructible would not really add anything to the game, but it removes things from the game. With everything being removable, the whole map just becomes "background".

[wicked tinsel]

but by that time, your factory becomes the foreground, this is perfectly fine

this used to be beautiful forest, now its a noisy industrial wasteland, isnt that the theme of such games

[wanton axle]

Greta Thunberg would just hate this game LOL

[wind spade]

why not have the map just a flat land from start then 🤷‍♂️

[wicked tinsel]

because there is no factory yet 🤷‍♂️

well, to be honest, i think part of the problem is that some stuff that was designed to be destructible simply isnt due to bugs, for example those blue sparkling sponge trees

you can blow up their collision box but the graphic remains 😄

[wicked tinsel]

and you still want that map to provide background to your factory, just not necessary get in the way constantly 🤷‍♂️

[earnest chasm]

working around bigger obstacles is fine, but having a lot of small things getting in the way all over is kinda annoying

[wind spade]

then plan your factory around the map and not be like "I want my flat factory HERE, so nature get out of the way"

[wicked tinsel]

this

[earnest chasm]

it's really hard to just know where things will fit

also, the environment clipping into your factory is just really un-aesthetic

[wicked tinsel]

there is no ruler either so you cant just plan floor at some height and hope it wont clip into ground or random rock somewhere

[earnest chasm]

just having some special type of foundation block or something that removes ground mesh inside of it would be amazing

would also allow you to make completely underground factories, which would be incredibly cool

[wicked tinsel]

you can do those already with hypertubes or rail clipping map ground

being able to destroy ground isnt something necessary for me, being able to get rid of random rocks or indestructible plants would really improve the experience

[earnest chasm]

Of course, it's more of a nice to have than a must have

[vast jungle]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/YP5abopUXtbf4Wcg9
I was really happy that everything went around this Coral quite nicely.

[earnest chasm]

Also does rail delete overlapping ground mesh?

[vast jungle]

nothing deletes ground mesh

[earnest chasm]

Damn

I misunderstood then

[vast jungle]

some things are (deliberately or not) missing full collision detection with the ground mesh... but this might still change

[earnest chasm]

I don't wanna destroy everything and make it flat, but I'd like to be able to build something say, flush with a cliff wall

And not have to make some really janky setup or risk clipping with the wall

[vast jungle]

will not happen... Devs have said it multiple times that they decided against it

[earnest chasm]

Technical or gameplay considerations?

[vast jungle]

both...

[earnest chasm]

should've seen that coming

[vast jungle]

destructible terrain in a custom 3D map is a HUGE effort... and they decided against it both as a technical and as an artistically decision

[oblique hollow]

the game already struggles with performance issues when your factories are large

i cant really imagine how terrain manipulation would impact that

[earnest chasm]

I was personally thinking less terrain manipulation, more just not drawing the mesh if it's inside a foundation "block"

[naive ingot]

I like keeping a few medium sized trees and building intentionally around them.

[earnest chasm]

that personally sounds like a nightmare of tiny clipping issues

[naive ingot]

Unfortunately, there's rarely a time when 'just don't draw the mesh' is an easy option.

[earnest chasm]

Of course, hitboxes are a concern as well, and with a lot of foundations etc., finding all the mesh vertices that satisfy this criteria would probably be expensive

[naive ingot]

I imagine my building style is quite different from most. I don't fear clipping, for one, but if I use clipping, I try to make it look good.

[earnest chasm]

that'd be fine if we had more options for fine detail building

but I've found that slightly lacking personally

[oblique hollow]

lets wait and see what update 4 brings

[naive ingot]

Indeed.

[vast jungle]

the game is still in early access... we can expect to get more "cosmetic" stuff later in development...

but at the moment the "more content" and "less bugs" is more important

[oblique hollow]

you can always suggest stuff on the QA website

[earnest chasm]

ngl I personally find the cosmetics that do exist to be one of the best parts of the game

[wicked tinsel]

i wish the existing cosmetics were more.. aesthetically pleasing

[vast jungle]

I would really like (double)ramp versions of the frame-foundation

and foundation-holes for conveyer lifts! 😉

[oblique hollow]

anything frame-foundation

[naive ingot]

Ooh, yeah that would be neat.

[oblique hollow]

imagine: frame walls

[earnest chasm]

honestly my biggest gripe is probably walkway alignment

[wicked tinsel]

like walkways having symmetric model from underside so that connecting T crossing wouldnt make ugly cut frames

or railings connecting to slopped foundations

[naive ingot]

That's why I basically never use walkways... And why I don't use rails.

[earnest chasm]

also is there any summary of planned or speculated changes for update 4?

[wicked tinsel]

https://satisfactory.gamepedia.com/Future_content#Update_4

[earnest chasm]

the walkways look amazing when you can get the alignment to work imo

[frosty owl]

What's the issue with that?

[earnest chasm]

nice, thank you

walkways are half a foundation in length, but you can't for example start them in the middle of a foundation block

[wicked tinsel]

you sometimes can

[naive ingot]

Yes you can.

[wicked tinsel]

but its glitchy

[vast jungle]

one problem with walkways that in one direction you can place them every 1/4 foundation... but in the other direction only every 1/2 foundation

[naive ingot]

Oh, inside the foundation block...

[earnest chasm]

yeah

you get a center alignment from one axis

[wicked tinsel]

also slopped walkways are two meters high so they dont align with 1m foundations if you have them anywhere

[vast jungle]

sometimes you need to place a few "helper walkways" to place the final one

[earnest chasm]

but you have it be to the side on the other

[wicked tinsel]

and there is no way to make it look good

[vast jungle]

not sure if 1m foundations already existed when walkways were made

they came a bit later

[frosty owl]

I don't really get the issue. Isn't the point of then starting from the tlfoundations, the fact that they align with walls from there on?

[earnest chasm]

I'll make a quick drawing

[wicked tinsel]

there are no 4m railings either, so if you start walkway from foundation, there is always an unprotected chasm next to it

[frosty owl]

You CAN clip walkways with fohndations to do some railing though not the best, but I think it can look cool in some situations

[vast jungle]

you can use a walkway for this

[wicked tinsel]

yeah i know

i do use them like this, but it just doesnt look super good

walkways have that hole like thingy in the middle that sticks from foundation when its overlapped

[earnest chasm]

I'd like to have a foundation in the middle of those two red squares

because then it'd be in the middle as seen from the right

but it can only be in the middle on one axis

also 4m is wrong, I meant 8

[vast jungle]

like we said, we expect to get more cosmetics later during development... at the moment they just appear when devs have spare time and fun

[naive ingot]

So, I have a method of making offset foundations, but it involves placing a foundation on a stack of iron plates, so the foundation is vertically offset by the thickness of the plate stack... Are there any inventory items that are an exactly .5m thickness increment?

[oblique hollow]

sounds very sketchy

[wicked tinsel]

im not sure if there is a table of item height somewhere

try with fuel canister

[naive ingot]

Hmm.

[frosty owl]

I may be failing to see the issue again... Couldn't you just start from the middle of the 4m foundation and go up from there until you get in the middle of the reds too?

[vast jungle]

most likely... or 1 1/2 high...

just be aware that building foundations on top of items depends on the type of foundation you are placing... what works with 2m foundations doesn't necessarily work with 1m foundations.

[earnest chasm]

no, because the walkway has to start somewhere flush to the foundation 8x8m grid

[naive ingot]

Right, the foundation is vertically centered on the top surface of the item.

[wicked tinsel]

imho, the problem here is that there is no "unalign" button

[frosty owl]

Correct. Which can be: left side, right side, or CENTRE

[wicked tinsel]

it would improve gameplay if we had it

[vast jungle]

you have three options to place a walkways at an edge of a foundations... but you still have to place it at the edge

so you can go 1/4 foundation steps in one direction, but not in both

[earnest chasm]

exactly

I want center from both directions

[vast jungle]

easy to do with certain mods, but not possible currently in vanilla game

[earnest chasm]

that's something at least

[frosty owl]

OHHH! Now I get it!
Sorry, I'm so used avoiding doing that (as I know I can't) I subconsciously excluded the option :laughing:

[earnest chasm]

lmao, fair

[wicked tinsel]

^ when everything you have is 8m foundation 😄

[earnest chasm]

it was really annoying trying to build a one foundation wide tunnel, walkway going through the middle, and a 90 degree turn in one place

[frosty owl]

Why would you want to center it though, knowing it won't align with other foundations without clipping, from there on?

[earnest chasm]

ramps can be used to mitigate the ugliness

but the best solution would be 2m long walkway "snippets"

[frosty owl]

How about having it centered in the tunnel, but having the ramps leading down from there align with walls?

[earnest chasm]

like, the solution I came up with is to just end the walkway in the turn

[frosty owl]

Btw, ramps do an AMAZING job at boxing in water extractors since they are exactly 2.5 foundations wide ;)

[earnest chasm]

and then I didn't resume it for the latter part of the tunnel because the geometry didn't really allow for it

[wicked tinsel]

ugh, water extractors

i feel physical pain each time i have to build those

=.=

[earnest chasm]

it's survivable, just a small nitpick I have about an otherwise great feature

[vast jungle]

you could make the 90° corner a 3x3 foundation room with a single foundation floating in the middle 😉

[earnest chasm]

honestly the biggest thing I can ask for is smaller units of the current blocks

I could, actually

but the issue is that it's a skybridge that has to go up in one end to meet a cliff

[frosty owl]

Once I noticed this trick, a big portion of my alignment pains went away :)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/553550313533997057/785799774443798548/Screenshot20201123-17564900000.png

[vast jungle]

at the moment the developers have too much with priority on their list

[wicked tinsel]

i usually just cram them to each other side by side

but they are irregular in all directions unfortunately

also super high and gaudy collision box that prevents building around them

[frosty owl]

They are not. Exactly 2.5 foundations each side (just a bit less)
So if you place a walkway every 3 foundations (like in picture) or every 6 you can easily box them into the space you want :wink:

Notice how with 1 walkway the design becomes repeatable (2.5+0.5 makes for a 3 foundations wide design). Just omit walkways in between when you want and you get some nice water boxes

In picture, they actually have the right height for a pioneer to walk from extractor to walkway without jumping, but that is an added and unexpected bonus

[wicked tinsel]

i usually build 3 foundations wide trench, smash them against back foundations and put walkway on front side

it works

[frosty owl]

I just find it nicer to axcess the extractors from the sides rather then the front ^^

[wicked tinsel]

yeah, you got the foundations at water level

so its possible to walk to extractor

i usually got it bit higher, like 4m above the water level

[frosty owl]

They are actually aligned with the floor above! Ahahah

Just a lucky fit

Issue I'd like to hear opinions on:
I'm turning 2 pure nodes of quartz into silica. I also have nearby the copper needed to make enough sheets to turn all that silica into circuit boards.
Would using 2 pure quartz nodes just to make boards be too much, leaving too little silica for other things, in your opinion? (no need to math it out)
I can always make more boards later, but doing the opposite is more complicated 😅

[vast jungle]

last quartz nodes on the map?

[frosty owl]

Nope. I'm using 3 pures and 1 normal out of 4 pures and 11 normals (if I remember right)

But a lot will need to be funneled for nuclear and I can't calculate how much since U4. Then alluminium but... U4. Then supercomputers but... You get the idea

[vast jungle]

then I would just leave 1 pure node alone... make neither quartz crystals nor silica until you know what U4 brings... you might need one or the other for Tier 8 stuff

[frosty owl]

Using up more then half the normal nodes doesn't sound like leaving enough leeway though. I'm pretty sure nuclear + alluminium would be AT LEAST 4/5 normal nodes 🤔

[open meadow]

just finised my 1st 100% eff factory,(120 wire 60 cable min) only just noticed my 2nd copper node is some distance away 😛

[vast jungle]

when you find the "Copper Alloy" alt things will get a bit insane 😉

[errant sable]

i just realised i've been using a single copper node during my entire game so far

[vast jungle]

I am using two at the moment and will have to exploit a third one if my current production of Copper Ingots and Sheets run out...

[naive ingot]

Hey, slow-and-steady is a valid play style, too.

[jade minnow]

Me too, nothing special I guess. You don't need so much copper at the beginning. Only upgraded now that I went for adaptive control unit and the other stuff for tier 7

[wintry aurora]

yea, that node in the grasslands can provide quite a good deal.

[open meadow]

yeah i think i am overdoing it abit with the copper atm 😛

[vast jungle]

how much?

[open meadow]

120 wire 60 cable a min

only just started

[vast jungle]

getting enough Wire and Cable is nice... but you will definitely also need copper sheets in Tier 3...

[open meadow]

yeah got an 2nd node on about 500m from my current setup. guess imma bult an sep factory there for sheets and port them with T1 belts. but thats after i get my 1st iron factory up and running for plates/rods and screws

[versed violet]

2 copper nodes total (or rather 1 normal and 2 impure).
Caterium wire FTW

[vast jungle]

just overclock the copper nodes when you can... and place better miners on them as soon as you get them. This should easily keep you supplied for a while

[open meadow]

yeah didnt manage to unlock overclock yet. ill see to that after i get that T1 iron factory up and running and an T2 for the reinforced iron plates

got 3 pure iron nodes at my current spot an pure copper and an pure limestone

to make it workable i am spamming the foundations though 😛

[vast jungle]

having enough Limestone is really useful early on

[versed violet]

Fun thing is, I only have 3 miners running at 100%, that gives me 240 copper total, yet my factory makes all the stuff up to supercomputers (no aluminium tier items yet)

[vast jungle]

I am just trying to decide what outputs to go for with my "high-tech" factory (Circuit Boards, Highspeed-Connectors, AI-Limiters and Computers)
and where to build the thing

[errant sable]

bruh
1440 iron/min with miner mk2s

[frosty owl]

Someone can knows an easy way to split 432/min from a line?
I can't find an easy solution to balance it, I think I might just manifold it since it doesn't involve too many machines and wouldn't take too long to fill up

[deep root]

Are you balancing for a specific reason?

Or just because you like to?

[deft summit]

guys

in grassland where is a coal node with water near it

[frosty owl]

The latter. Makes it easy to "read" the lines later and I like the aesthetic and no warm-up time

[deep root]

8 splits is 54pm

[versed violet]

Coal lake, up and to the left.
or you can go very bottom right for coal, sulfur and tiny water pond

[deft summit]

kk

im a tad new so are water sources infinite

[deep root]

My friends abs I got the signs mod and we label lines with used / max

[deep root]

Everything is infinite

[deft summit]

ok thx :)

[sinful vale]

#screenshots message

[sinful vale]

except for sam ore, all resources are infinite

[deep root]

Well... It is infinite, you just have a max per day

[sinful vale]

(the photo is taken from the 3 iron nodes you spawn right next to in grassy)

[frosty owl]

... And what about that...?

[deep root]

You wanted to split 432...wasn't sure how you wanted it

And now I realize I misread what you wanted

[versed violet]

split 432 from how much?

[sinful vale]

embrace the dark side, we got cookies

[deep root]

You need multiples of like 7.5 or 15 though

That's why I manifold lol

[frosty owl]

Any multiple of 7.5 equals a manifold of balancers to me

[frosty owl]

Not really relevant I think, but 720/min or similar

As long ad it's 200/300 items/min faster then needs of the manifold, it would make the manifold warm up pretty fast

[deep root]

I pre load machines most of the time if I need production to start immediately

[versed violet]

Unnecessary splitting setup:
Assume mk4 input (480).
Split 60 off, direct 420 to output.
The remaining 60, use a 5 way splitter and merge one part into output to get 432 total. (merge remaining outputs into original belt.)
5 way splitter example -> https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/b5k4o0/how_to_split_one_belt_equally_into_5_your_welcome/

[frosty owl]

Yeah, that's the "not easy" solution I thought of before xD

I hoped there could be some dark woodoo to make it simpler, but I guess not

[versed violet]

If you manifold with mk4/5 belt through all splitters and use a bit higher tier belts than necessary for machine, they will start faster I think

[frosty owl]

Considering it's just 18 machines, it wouldn't take long for the manifold to fill them up and output the overflow correctly (as I said, the main line provides at least more then 200 items/min in excess)

[topaz hedge]

RIP... Well, U4 should be fun for everyone.

13.34 package/diluted/unpackage.. and.. lol

[sand garnet]

your capacity line was fluctuating, indicating a problem with input resources

[topaz hedge]

Oh, and it's not a shortage of canisters

i unno

I'm stumped, really.

[oblique hollow]

Pipe manifold issue perhaps

[topaz hedge]

I found the problem!

ahaha.. I'm an idiot >.>

[oblique hollow]

[topaz hedge]

So, Well.. my excuse is when i imported the blueprint from scim.. it broke all the pipes, and I had to replace every single one in this plant.. those two got missed >.>

[oblique hollow]

Thats why you dont do scim

[feral ice]

I don't know what I'm doing wrong but I've got 6 refineries making fuel from heavy residue. This should be making 40/m*6; assuming that I placed 16 fuel generators which each take 15/m according to them but I am still getting excess fuel, flow rate is also not limiting. Is there something with wrong with what the generators say they use or am I being dumb somewhere?

[vast jungle]

Fuel generators only draw the percentage of their full demand when you consume the full electrical power

so 50% power usage = 50% fuel usage

(which will change with the upcoming update 4)

[topaz hedge]

gonna be fun. considering one little thing will kill the whole system after U4 xD

[vast jungle]

I don't think so... most of the powerplants in trouble would have failed at a point anyways... as long as you keep the "smallest part" at the end of powerproduction your are safe

[topaz hedge]

we'll see in theory your power graph will just fluctuate a bit right?

[vast jungle]

the capacity should never fluctuate after U4...

unless you use biomass burners ^^

[wicked tinsel]

it will by definition

tho for most players, it will likely fail catastrophically few hours after update

[vast jungle]

we will see... I don't think so

[sand garnet]

if it's not failing now, it wont fail in the future

unless you built a system that cannot run at 100% right now, which means that the error is on the player's side, and not the factory's

[wicked tinsel]

its funny how you spin same argument both ways to defend this change but ok

cant be bothered to argue with you anymore

[sand garnet]

the 'cannot run at 100%' comment is in regards to fake capacity

which is no different from my original comments on the subject

[wicked tinsel]

"its players fault that his power plant will fail in u4"
"its factorys fault that player's badly designed plastic production would clog"

see a problem here?

[sand garnet]

no because they are intertwined

the player builds it wrong > the factory still says it is ok because fake capacity exists > player doesnt know he did something wrong

with the changes:

the player builds it wrong > the factory says it is wrong > player fixes it before larger problems occur

[topaz hedge]

part of it sounds like trying to fix stupid. no? player's power plant fails.. player looks at failling capacity and see's there's an issue. player investigates. I dunno

[sand garnet]

fix stupid game design? yea

right now, when a player looks at the graph, it doesnt tell you anything is wrong

[topaz hedge]

Well, when it dies the capacity starts falling.

[sand garnet]

yeah butbefore it dies, you dont know it will die

[topaz hedge]

I mean, I'll admit walking across the map did suck lol

[sand garnet]

because you can hook up 500 generators to a single mk1 coal miner on an impure node and a single water extractor, and the game will be like 'oh yeah this is totally fine! nothing to see here!'

[topaz hedge]

But, I think I'm alright now

[sand garnet]

and then when your factory starts demanding the actual fake capacity it claims to be able to provide, your generators go 'lol sike' and crash

[topaz hedge]

I mean, that's still on the player though. They didn't do the math.

[wicked tinsel]

imho its mostly due to game gui being useless af and hides details that could be used to debug such issues

[sand garnet]

not all players play this game using a calculator and stuff like that

[jade minnow]

But shouldn't you calculate what the generators will consume beforehand? If you make a constructor making 20 items per minute and the next constructor needs only 10 items to operate the player will still see the end product coming out although he is feeding too much ore into the first constructor

[sand garnet]

if something is wrong, the game should indicate it is wrong

if it doesnt, it should be viable to assume you did it right

[wicked tinsel]

hereifxiedit

[topaz hedge]

I mean, if they just printed on coal gens this uses 15 coal a min rather than burn time.. that would probably solve confusion too.

[sand garnet]

where does it fix fake capacity?

[vast jungle]

It does not

[wicked tinsel]

player clicks the pole, it tells him he has 5% coal left, last time he checked he had 80%

so clearly it burns it too fast

[vast jungle]

Or the next train arrives in a moment

[wicked tinsel]

capacity isnt actually fake, he can pull as much energy as it shows

[topaz hedge]

Trains arn't setup yet.

[wicked tinsel]

until his stockpile of resources rans out

[sand garnet]

lmao no

[wicked tinsel]

its a stockpile that is fake, not power

[sand garnet]

if you want to argue semantics, sure go ahead

[topaz hedge]

Except there are no buffers in my system, unless you count pipes as buffers (:

[wicked tinsel]

power plants have buffers in them

not large but they do, they can work full power until they burn it

[topaz hedge]

Yeah, 50 a building.

[sand garnet]

right, so how do 500 gens being able to provide 500x75MW for 1 milisecond help a player?

if you dont call that fake capacity, then what?

[wicked tinsel]

full fuel generator for turbofuel has iirc 50 units, so it can turn for like 12 minutes on stockpile alone at full power

[topaz hedge]

I mean, if they checked the UI before placing their 500 gens, and the UI told them it used 15 a min. I was a bit confused first starting because everything has what it uses a min, but coal gens

[vast jungle]

Knowing the average storage of the powerplants is not that helpful in large powerplants anyway

[sand garnet]

im pretty sure all generators provide their consumption in time to burn, and not 'amount per minute'

[vast jungle]

Because it might be unevenly distributed

[wicked tinsel]

powerplant gui is kinda useless, it doesnt provide informations it should

[topaz hedge]

But, I could make a counter arguement and side with tom in that I would've found my disconnected pipes much sooner, and without a load/test aka 4800 rubber and plastic into a sink. Now my capacity isn't fake

[wicked tinsel]

it should have max and current consumption per minute, not some arbitrary time to burn

[sand garnet]

not all generators use a single type of fuel though

biomass burners, fuel gens, coal gens, they all take multiple types

[wicked tinsel]

im pretty sure you cant feed it two different fuels at same time

[topaz hedge]

current and max would've been nice

[wicked tinsel]

it should display usage for current fuel type

[sand garnet]

that I agree with

and with the changes to power, Im sure that is what they'll do

[topaz hedge]

We'll find out soon(tm)

[vast jungle]

the problem is that there is no easy way out with the current way powerplants work... even if the sum of your powerplants have tons of storage, one of them might go out in a moment... there is not even a good way to detect this in advance for the game.

with the new systems it will be much easier to display what is going on...

[wicked tinsel]

doesn't capacity already drop if one of your power plants get exhausted?

tho those graphs display like 2 minutes worth of data so you wont be able to see that it flickers

no idea why they cant be scalled, factorio graphs display like 50 hours worth of data =.=

[topaz hedge]

If it flickers it'll sooner than later start dropping. And the thing with storage is it runs out eventually.

[oblique hollow]

dont immediately complain like Satisfactory will forever be "flawed"
Things still get changed and added over time

[topaz hedge]

This is true. It's gotten better in the short about of time I've been playing. Well it's been 30 minutes and I'm holding a steady capacity now. I think I'm good

[wicked tinsel]

its an early access game, that's perfectly fine and acceptable. just because some design decisions seem puzzling to me doesnt mean i dont enjoy the game as whole

[oblique hollow]

yeah but whenever you find something puzzling, you immediately jump to factorio, which is not in early access anymore

[frosty owl]

It's a fair comparison.
It's how this game started in the first place, so I don't think making such comparisons is counterproductive ^^

[wicked tinsel]

it quite obviously started as 3d factorio clone, nothing wrong about it

[frosty owl]

I'm pretty sure the Devs said they used to call it Factorio 2.0 before they came up with "satisfactory" ^^

[oblique hollow]

yes, that is fine, but this is about "finished game" vs "unfinished game", not just "factory game 1 vs factory game 2"

[frosty owl]

Sure, but it's not like she said "the game should have this since factorio does". Just pointing out how factorio does something better then Satis in a certain context, showing possibility for improvement

[wicked tinsel]

speaking of unfinished vs finished game is also not very fair, factorio had a lot of those features for years, its not like they randomly polished everything last year for summer release

power graph in particular is very limited, your factory can experience massive swings in long periods and it displays only two minutes worth of data, it doesnt need to have factorio's complicated gui, it just should display.. more

(also should had used male avatar :D)