math-and-meta

[vapid gorge]

but honestly 'no fucking lables' should have been the where the program gets dumped

that's just basic fucking function

[median heath]

You really wanted to type "Picked up steam" didn't you 😏

[vapid gorge]

didn't want to double down on the word

and then peopel paste images on here of a plan that has basically no information and go 'what do1?!?'

[bleak wagon]

yeah ik theres been a bunch of things like it. Ive never really liked using SM tools though. It becomes a mess to me and i have to decipher someone elses plan. It may take a lot more time to do it in modeler, but for me it ends up making more sense in the end. I agree the UI is trash and no automatic labels suck.

As with everything else about this game its up to preference in the end and your needs. Modeler works better for my process so I use it. Theres no need to give someone shit for something theyre doing in the game or things related to it as long as it works for them and what they want to do.

[dusky dust]

My own personal bugbear with Modeler remains the labelling, too -- I find its graphs essentially impossible to interpret without concerted study, as opposed to solvers which label everything and it's trivial to see at a glance what's going on -- but that's not really Modeler's fault. Modeller isn't intended to be a tool you use to share factory plan graphs with other people, it's meant to be an interactive thing that you use to plan out factories and such. When you're using the app the lack of labels doesn't really matter because A) you're the one who made it, so you're less likely to need the labels, and B) you've got mouseovers and clickthroughs and all sorts of other stuff to compensate for it.

The friction w/ folks like myself is that the only time I ever encounter Modeler is when someone's pasted an unlabelled graph and it's just a mess of impenetrable icons to me. :D

But anyway, I strive to remain charitable to it. It definitely fits in a niche that a lot of folks want! I understand the desire to "feel" like you're building the factory out yourself, making your own decisions right off the bat, instead of starting with a solver/calculator which just spits out a ready-made answer for ya.

And it's got some genuinely neat features; I quite like the thing where you can take a part of a factory and turn it into a "module" or whatever which has N inputs and M outputs (I forget what the app calls it). And carrying through the math as it goes. With solvers/calculators you've kind of got to engineer your own sandboxing for that sort of thing.

Anyway: the app's definitely not For Me™ but I'm glad folks who want it have the option. :) I do really wish that the thing would bloody add labels to its graphs, though, so that when they're shared here I'd have a shred of hope of interpreting them. 🥳

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I agree with that. I try not to share my stuff for that reason

its like coding, comment your code so other people can understand wtf is going on

[dusky dust]

Perhaps one day they'll add a "add labels" checkbox somewhere for when people take screenshots. :D

Anyway, it obviously fills a niche; merely being on Steam wouldn't account for its level of popularity. It's a method of factory planning which clearly a lot of folks want

[bleak wagon]

With this I really just felt like it was understandable enough without them. Lines made sense and its recipes that you really just cant play without

[bleak wagon]

one can hope

[dusky dust]

Although again, generating graphs for information-sharing purposes isn't really its purpose anyway, so I can see why they might not care. I did suggest it on their Steam forums a long time ago but I think that post died without a ripple pretty much immediately. :P

[bleak wagon]

Sounds about right lol. But yeah its not really meant for sharing, it normally just ends up at wtf am i looking at even for yourself. Its organized chaos

like, this is my depot factory model. Definitely not meant to be shared as nobody but me is going to know all of what is going on unless I explain it. It is labeled, but even still I dont think its doing much good.

[vapid gorge]

a number of programs like it were already available
and entire game companies go under if steam refuses to platform them

I don't think you have a good understanding of the kind of control platforms like that have

[dusky dust]

Heh, well, could be you're right, but I maintain that there's clearly a niche for what Modeller does. Sure, the fact that they got it listed on Steam is gonna give it exposure that other third-party tools might only ever dream of, but there's still folks who want to plan their factories that way

Just because I don't like the app doesn't mean that other people also don't

At the very minimum the developer(s?) who created it were passionate enough about that vision to take it as far as they have. It's possible they may spring Surprise Monetization Mechanics™ on their users at some point, but AFAIK for now there's never been an attempt to make money off of it. I don't even see a Patreon link anywhere

(As someone who frequently writes software with an intended audience of Just Myself, I'd definitely have to admit that just because someone's passionate enough to make the software doesn't mean that there's an audience for it, but still.)

[lone jewel]

imo Modeler is by far the best way to plan out factories in Santisfactory

i can plan out nearly every aspect of any factory with it, except basically the actual placement of things in game, no spreadsheets or extra notes needed

[prisma kraken]

i still find using runesun's speedrunning planner fits my flow better. if i need a solver instead of a planner, sftools works fine for that

[bleak wagon]

I feel like theres something here Im missing. Does this really just work out as well as it did so I dont have to use SAM at all?

[lone jewel]

sometimes it does just work out yeah 🙂

[bleak wagon]

It definitely looked that way. Just had to ask cause it felt too good to be true

[summer flare]

You will have to use some SAM. A container with a small amount feeding a convertor to inject Dark Matter Residue to start producing Dark Matter Crystal.

[prisma kraken]

why it works is that the combo of the 2 dmc recipes can exactly make virtually any amt of DMC from enough dmr

[bleak wagon]

Thats actually really interesting.

[bleak wagon]

I store dark matter crystals for that reason

[prisma kraken]

the thing is that dark matter trap eats diamonds and they're pricey

hmm, i just noticed that you're using the base recipe there instead of trap. you'll do better on the diamon with trap

[bleak wagon]

I dont see a difference for this scenario

one would just use more power and add an uneeded step

[prisma kraken]

because it uses less residue to make the same crystal, you can throw more dmr into crystalization which is cheaper

[bleak wagon]

ah

I wasnt paying attention to the residue when i originally looked at it the first time around

[prisma kraken]

yep. as long as you have the power, you want to use trap+crystalization

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I'll have plenty of power. Im almost through planning the space elevator factories and my depot factory is done so I can do power shortly

probably gonna go for 300GW of power from nuclear. Ik rocket fuel is technically better but nuclear cooler

actually i may end up needing closer to 325-350GW

[prisma kraken]

it really depends on what you're going for. continuous production of phase 5 stuff is rather power hungry

[orchid brook]

is there a reason this wont work? sorry a bit messy but its just making 300 uranuim from around 300 SAM

[vapid gorge]

why wouldn't it work?

[orchid brook]

so it is possiple hmmmmmm

[vapid gorge]

does the planner let you set impossible things?

if so that's pretty stupid of it

[orchid brook]

i was just making sure

idk why i woul use it tho

[vapid gorge]

no idea. there's no lables on anything about what the hell is going on

I just assumed it not such an awful planner as to just be wrong

I could be wrong of course

[prisma kraken]

for a loop like that, you'll need to manually drop in one of the inputs to get it started, but should run after doing so

the math on it looks a little suss though

[prisma kraken]

i mean, slooping any one step in the loop should make it possible. without sloops the loss going around is only like 50/min on 1200 bauxite

[frosty owl]

More production steps can also mean more powerful slooping 😉

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but the number of sloops you need grows exponentially

[frosty owl]

The output grows exponentially, the input reduces exponentially, but the number of Sloops grows linearly

[orchid brook]

wow even with all the copper in all pure node (without sloops) turned into copper powder it will still take 12h to complete Pasta in 1000x space eleveter

not talking about power and and all the power shards

even if u sloop there isnt enough on the map and all that is with ALL the copper on the map which most likliy wont happen

so like how does someone actually do this?

[keen jasper]

I am currently making 2400 aluminum ingots per minute is that enough and what is the recommended split between alclad and casings

[wind spade]

recommended is to make what you need, not try to guess what you will need

and "is it enough" is impossible to answer without knowing your exact goals

which you probably don't have planned, so you cannot answer that either

[keen jasper]

I want to try and finish the game with this factory if possible

[wind spade]

you can finish the game with a single machine of each type 🤷

[keen jasper]

Okay can you at least recomaand a split i have no idea what i will need in the future

[wind spade]

why decide the split now? keep the ingots and use the exact amount you need when you need them in future

[keen jasper]

Thats a fair point. Thanks

[dawn dirge]

Can you completely avoud using rods from all recipes with alternative recipes?

I believe steeled rotor and steeled frame are considered best alts anyways?

[wind spade]

no, definitely not

there's nothing like "best alt" either

there's alts that help you with your goals, but that doesn't make them best for others

[wind spade]

that depends on what your production goal is

[dawn dirge]

All right, it's objective, but I always ended up using these two. Aside from rotors and frames I don't think there are any uses for iron rods

[wind spade]

and given that rods are used in buildables, you want to make them anyway

[dawn dirge]

True, but don't need them as much

[wind spade]

well, no, it's subjective

[wind spade]

rebar, screws, handcrafting portable miners

many equipments

[prisma kraken]

mod frames too

[spice crater]

Conveyor poles too

Some alts help the speed at which produced but cost more, some save inputs.

[bleak wagon]

Is it worth going through the full nuclear chain? Or should I just do uranium then sink plutonium rods.

[meager kettle]

i think it is, but to each their own

[bleak wagon]

Whats your reason for doing the full chain? Im kinda on the fence for it cause its cool, but uses a ton more resources.

[meager kettle]

makes a lot more power

[oblique hollow]

full chain has the bonus of 75% more power than sinking plutonium

[meager kettle]

its more

90GW on 300 Uranium with U rods only, with Pu + Fisc its 210GW

[oblique hollow]

that seems too much for some reason

i remember going through the chain and from what i remember PU gives +50% and Ficsonium +25%

[meager kettle]

7.2 U rods -> 3.2 Pu Rods -> 16 Fics Rods

[oblique hollow]

base recipes only?

[meager kettle]

no, with alts

thats max possible power

you can make fewer Pu rods which will reduce power gain but also reduce materials by quite a bit

[oblique hollow]

no, there must be an error on your side

[meager kettle]

nope

[oblique hollow]

if i go down the chain, its 5 nukes for uranium rod, 2.5 nukes for plutonium and 1.25 for ficsonium

just example numbers

[meager kettle]

infused cell -> U fuel units -> non fissile -> instant cells -> Pu fuel units

[oblique hollow]

ok i misread then

i read "no with alts" as "no alts" for some reason

without alts, it IS correct, 1.75x more power than uranium alone

[meager kettle]

with normal its 100 uranium / U fuel rod

[oblique hollow]

but then again, altmaxxing uranium power has its own issues

[meager kettle]

so 300 would be 3/min

[oblique hollow]

with normal recipes it would be 1/min uranium rod, 0.25/min plutonium and 1.25/min ficsonium ratio wise

[meager kettle]

sounds about right

[oblique hollow]

thats 100/min uranium

so yes, 300/min uranium is 3/min u rods, 0.75/min plut and 3.75/min ficsonium

[meager kettle]

which is about 65.6GW

[oblique hollow]

so the main increase is only on the uranium > plutonium side

goes from 0.25 to 0.444 x plutonium rods per uranium rod

which on my end gives you 2.8x more power compared to uranium

so 60% more than the base recipe chain for plut > ficsonium

[meager kettle]

its 7.2 U rods vs 3. and then 3.2 Pu rods vs 0.75. Or if you mix to make 7.2 U rods, you end up with 1.8 Pu rods using base

[oblique hollow]

oh wait

slight error on my end, missed a few decimals

its 77.77% more than base plut + ficsonium

either way, quite the big yield but the cost is just as insane

[meager kettle]

its kinda a sliding scale of 65.6GW at low end and 210GW at top end for 300 U/min

depending which route you go

which is a factor of 3.2

i have maff'd this shit a lot :p

[dusky dust]

@fringe laurel (re: #screenshots message ) -- My one immediate bit of feedback would be to use a name other than "Satisfactory Tool." We already have "Satisfactory Tools"; a difference of one letter is just gonna be confusing.

(Also, IMO no harm in just, y'know, giving out the link rather than soliciting DMs and such, but of course you do you)

[meager kettle]

also it not showing byproducts is a pretty big flaw imo

where the HOR at?

[unique cypress]

Thoughts on the announcement video?
I don't think we're getting dynamic pathing but maybe at least some way to direct trains? Not sure what else these colors could indicate

[meager kettle]

i just think its showing off we can paint tracks tbh

[unique cypress]

They barely change color though

[opaque iron]

Quick question, which recipe gives more energy with fuel generators in Phase 3? Refining crude oil into fuel right away or using diluted packaged fuel and unpacking it again?

[wind spade]

more energy per what?

[median heath]

DPF.

Oil -> Fuel is 0.66- of a Fuel per 1 Oil
Oil -> HOR -> Residual Fuel is 0.88- of a Fuel per 1 Oil (better)
Oil -> HOR -> DPF is 2.66- Fuel per 1 Oil (best)

If you don't have HOR directly:
Oil -> Plastic -> DPF using HOR Byproduct is 0.66- Fuel per 1 Oil (tied with Oil -> Fuel)
Oil -> Rubber -> DPF using HOR Byproduct is 1.33- Fuel per 1 Oil (better)

[mental river]

What app is that? What is HOR?

[opaque iron]

Even accounting for packagers energy consumption? Assuming I get a fine 600m³ of crude oil per minute and turn it completely into fuel for generators

[median heath]

Heavy Oil Residue?

[median heath]

Going from 0.66- to an extra 2 Fuel per Oil at 2.66- is ridiculously more than Packager cost.

[opaque iron]

Alright thanks

[meager kettle]

also just noticed it says extractor x5 for 600 crude/min, thats not a thing. and if you wanna show overclock it should say 2.5x or 250%

[median heath]

What even is this though?

Someone attempting to be worse than Modeler?

[meager kettle]

#screenshots message

[median heath]

Instant no.

[meager kettle]

yea

i'll still to doing it in my head or an actual calculator :p

[median heath]

I use Tools as the fast verification of "is the number I am thinking about possible to do?"
I don't much care how it solves it, just need the check that it can be solved - then I do it either on paper or with notepad.

[meager kettle]

i dont wanna deal with the silly weighting system on tolls

[median heath]

I don't 😄 As I said I just use it to make sure my target is actually attainable with the given resources.
Then I do the solving and planning myself.

Input actual node values. Type in target for specific item.
If it generates solution = 👍
If it says "solution could not be found" = rethink target number or rethink build area.

No point in doing a good hour of math/planning to find out what I wanted to do isn't actually possible.
So I like to check first.

[dusky dust]

Oh eesh, I didn't even notice the "AI Design Layout" button. Hope the whole thing isn't just vibecoded.

[meager kettle]

kinda looks like it is

[wind spade]

can use beta tools to change weights

[median heath]

Would explain the descrepancies.

[wind spade]

it was

[meager kettle]

since things like byprodcts is missing and that it just shows weird things like x6.7 t1 miners

[median heath]

"I created" when it comes to vibecode should be changed to "I prompted" imo.

[dusky dust]

I still hate that the word "vibe" has been taken from us by generative "AI" stuff.

(I mean, if that was the worst of what generative "AI" has taken from us, I'd be a lot happier overall, but c'est la vie)

[mental river]

Where do I get that designer?

[median heath]

I don't know and I do not want to know.

[wind spade]

why would you want to generate something using AI if you can generate it using actual scripts that are consistent and do what they should?

[meager kettle]

saw another planner posted on steam forum which was vibe coded too. that one didnt even do the math right

[median heath]

1. Because people think LLMs are AI.
2. Because people think AI is the answer...

[mint coral]

@agile light

unfortunately i don't have time to run you through but This video will cover it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFBXeSaLvdU

[fringe laurel]

What do you mean by Insta ny no. ?
I don't get it what are you saying

[fringe laurel]

Yes bro it is vibecoded but I am software developer so I know all things that I have added in side

There are still things I have plan to add but, I think that first let me show this example to other and get there feedback before moving forward

[median heath]

The current feedback you are getting is "made with LLM = hard pass." 🤷‍♂️

[fringe laurel]

I have public link if any body wants to use

[tranquil ember]

Anybody know how to do a 4 to 8 balancer off hand?

working with some stupid high throughput in a bauxite factory atm

[strong garden]

Manifold?

Or use google. There’s a bunch of websites that to the math for you

[tranquil ember]

too much for a full one

[strong garden]

Dang

More manifolds

[tranquil ember]

alumina scrap produces so much

[strong garden]

Real

[tranquil ember]

can easily make it more than a mk5 belt

[strong garden]

I only got 250 aluminum casing/sheets a minute. Probably need to upgrade

[tranquil ember]

I'm grabbing all of these nodes. Its a lot

planning for roughly 3850 aluminum casings/min

[lime zephyr]

What's the max alien power matrixes I can produce with unlimited sloops and power shards?, I need 120 per minute for my save, is that possible?, I'm making already 200 shards per minute

[vapid gorge]

use a planner that allows you to have infinite sloops

[lime zephyr]

Damn, looks like pain is in my forecast

[orchid brook]

just finished planning for my nuclure plant for my next save (also first and i have almost 400h ) what are some stuff i should excapt or like keep in mind?

[wind spade]

Hook each belt to the amount it can feed

[wind spade]

Infinite sloops probably can make tons

[tranquil ember]

yeah its just gonna be a ton of belt weaving lol

[lime zephyr]

I'm aiming for 240 per minute at best, with availability of resources

I gotta turn my shards into sinkable items

Today I learned you can't sink shards

And I need that dark matter lol, I'll see what I can do

[wind spade]

Why so? Just manifold each belt

[tranquil ember]

its more that the belts only carry 3 machine's worth of product each, and I need way more than that lol

so tons of seperate manifolds

[vapid gorge]

why not just manifold each belt on it's own?

[vapid gorge]

hell, you can just feed each refinery directly into smelters/foundries

not like you can do anything else with it

[tranquil ember]

I guess thats basically the plan, its just a big project, that also needs to account for upgrading to mk 6 belts eventually (prob wont need to)

[vapid gorge]

after you unlock everything in the game make fresh projects

much simpler since any post phase project of yours won't be very useful for anything except to provide building parts

[tranquil ember]

I mostly need this because my old refinery wasnt enough, and aluminum seems to be pretty needed for a lot at this point

either way, my current casings train is perpetually only shipping a tenth of what it can hold

[wind spade]

manifold each belt separately

[wind spade]

build it for current belts, don't upgrade

[tranquil ember]

prob should, all my current blueprints are awkward for this project

[vapid gorge]

people really put too much emphasis on blueprints, you need more flexibility in how you build

[prisma kraken]

ai expansion servers are a better bang for the buck for making DMR

i tried your thought of kicking off dmr/dmc from the shard making and found that doubling production of expansion servers used less resources that i cared about

[lime zephyr]

I'm aiming for 120ppm at least of every item in the game, mods for more resources if needed, I want to make the expansion servers next

[unique cypress]

Not really. They cost SAM

[wind spade]

• you'll definitely need more nodes
• you'll definitely burn your PC before reaching that goal

[vapid gorge]

your computer will catch fire before you do even half that

[vapid gorge]

even if you have a beast PC, I wouldn't aim for more than half the world resources available

if you don't have an absolute beast? less

[prisma kraken]

i don't think there's enough resources with the default allocations to even do a 60/60/60 phase 5 goal

...its close and if you were to trim out making nuclear, doable, but you're at that point with 60/60/60 that everything is compromises

[lime zephyr]

I'm already making 120 of every item up till the last tier, I had to divert to make nuclear power, since I'm using over 1.2tw of power,

This is an older list of what I'm making

I will add nodes when needed

[wind spade]

this is like 1/100th of materials you'll need

[lime zephyr]

So I need 1200 of every item in the lower tier below the matrxes? OK

Easy, I'll add nodes

[wind spade]

nodes aren't really the main bottleneck for your goal

PC performance is

[lime zephyr]

My pc is a monster lol

Twin 5090s, threaddrippers

[wind spade]

that doesn't make it possible

[lime zephyr]

128gb ddr5 ram

[wind spade]

best consumer PCs on market struggle with maxed map without adding nodes

[lime zephyr]

My pc handles 10k machines no problem

My current save has 3000km of belts

[wind spade]

yeah but that's child numbers compared to what you'll need for the lategame stuff

[prisma kraken]

having seen some of what Noot has built, I'll refrain lecturing

[lime zephyr]

I got 4000hrs, trust me, I'll get it done

Just wanted input

[wind spade]

looking at just ballistic warp drive, max you can make out of the map is ~73/min (yes I know, you can add nodes, but I'm posting this as example), which needs ~15k machines alone, and 830GW of power (which is a lot of machines as well)

and that's one item out of many

[vapid gorge]

this is a conversation that has happened over and over in this server
it's been tested out on the best rigs.

[lime zephyr]

I did 8000 machines in 140hrs, I'll get it done

I do not have a life lol

Threaddrippers and dual 5090s?

[vapid gorge]

unless that lack of life allows you to run the game on a university super computer that doesn't matter one lonely shit

[wind spade]

was tested on similar setups, but even if not, the maxed map is like 5% of what you want to build

[prisma kraken]

just host it all on AWS 🙂

[vapid gorge]

no idea what aws is

[lime zephyr]

Fine Ok, well in a few weeks I'll post the pics

Of it done

[prisma kraken]

'the cloud'

[vapid gorge]

seems unlikely

[prisma kraken]

Noot has built some big stuff

[lime zephyr]

I ain't afraid

I'm already half way there lol

[wind spade]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=Edu1eoqc9SRVwvKqwPWj

here's a plan for 120/min of just the things you need for phase 4 and 5 (I added x100 of each resource)

it's probably like 5% of all the materials if you really want all the items

already is at 52k machines, not including power generation

[wind spade]

you're like 1% there

it scales massively for lategame items. You're making early-mid items

[wind spade]

that doesn't make it possible 🙂

[lime zephyr]

U guys are going to be so surprised lmao

[wind spade]

no we won't 🙂

[lime zephyr]

I'll add as many nodes as needed

[wind spade]

"we told you"

again, nodes are not the problem

performance of the game is

[lime zephyr]

So dark matter crystals are low mid game?

[wind spade]

yes

[lime zephyr]

Thermal rockets too?

What exactly is late game then?

[wind spade]

where's thermal rockets on your ss?

[lime zephyr]

Not on my screenshot, making 120 of them

I'll get screenshot tomorrow, it's 4am for me

I know pasta will be a pain

Making 1200 heavy modular frames at the moment

[wind spade]

if you're at 10k machines, you're not halfway there at all

see the plan above

[lime zephyr]

Every machine is slooped and 250% oc

And setup for easy multiplication

[wind spade]

ah, cheated sloops 🤢

[lime zephyr]

Don't matter lol

[wind spade]

well at that point you're just playing creative mode, so yeah it matters

[lime zephyr]

Still gotta build it regardless

[vapid gorge]

let me jsut make machines that output 120 items pm out of thin air

https://tenor.com/view/the-simpsons-pathetic-principal-skinner-gif-13486077408184960752

[lime zephyr]

Lol

Not like having sloops build the machines for me

[unique cypress]

You have to build several times fewer machines if you use sloops

[wind spade]

but also building in creative mode with multiplier recipes is vastly different from normal playthrough

[prisma kraken]

hmmm, i may end up with a golden nut before i finish phase 3, lol

[zealous depot]

Not sure if this is the place to ask but im doing a 100x space elevator cost playthrough with my friends once the stable version comes out. Im on the fence about adding 5x power cost too. Has anyone experience with this? Whats it like? Like how does for example a 8 coal generator powerplant look like? The multiplied powercost would really cut into the net power production, right? Do you think it meaninfully slows the game down?

[wind spade]

8 coal gens make 300 MW
3 water extractors would need 300 MW

so even ignoring the miner, the coal gen setup would just barely power itself. You'd need to underclock a lot

[zealous depot]

Oh damn… ive never really paid attention to the power ’cost’ of underclocking, is there a way to get any kind of useful numbers out of a coal plant with the 5x setting?

Like if i have 6 we instead of the 3 how much do i save on power

Oh and also is there a way to change the gamemodes settings after starting or would i be locked into the settings i chose?

[unique cypress]

underclocking to 50% and building double saves 20% power
so one extractor at 50% would consume 40 MW, for 240 total with 6

[wind spade]

locked

[zealous depot]

Alright, thanks guys this was very insightful

[vapid gorge]

aren't 8 coal gens 900mw?

[wind spade]

8*75 🤔 I'm apparently bad at math 😄

but you are as well 😛 it's 600

[wind spade]

see above, it's not as bad, but still bad

at 100% clock, you're getting below 50% of power from the coal gens

as you need to power the miner and the extractors

[vapid gorge]

wait yeah xD

[limpid urchin]

You can change it in scim

[prisma kraken]

yeah, with 10 apa's built, you yield 900mw per 8 generators and that's good enough if you build a bunch of coal power

better than the 300mw you'd get w/o the apa's and that makes it tolerable

[limpid urchin]

That would mean collecting like every sommersloop pre jetpack

sounds like hell

[prisma kraken]

yep. ltp git gud.

[limpid urchin]

ltp?

[zealous depot]

sorry, whats an apa?

[prisma kraken]

learn to play

[limpid urchin]

ah okay lol

[prisma kraken]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Alien_Power_Augmenter

[zealous depot]

oh right, i'm dumb...

[prisma kraken]

making all 10 of them doubles your power output and adds another 10gw of power

[zealous depot]

hmm, the cost for them does seem a little steep for a phase 2 base, but definitely going to build as many once theres a computer factory going..

[prisma kraken]

really the entire map is very accessible if you know how to use the parachute, both to reach far things and to climb up a cliff, and every mob in the game has a weakness you can exploit with early tech

[limpid urchin]

It woudnt be hard

would just take a while

Not like I'd do it with the best mobility in the game

[prisma kraken]

having done it, there was a bit of a learning curve, but once i got good at aiming with the rebar gun, very little was a problem. the big fly hatchers are always dicey, but that's what inhalers are for

[limpid urchin]

You can just crouch up to those

Build some momentum with crouch jumping and crouch on over in the air

[prisma kraken]

yeah, sometimes, but not always. in groups they can be pretty challenging. why the boombox is cool

[frank prawn]

how would you split this?

[meager kettle]

with a splitter

[frank prawn]

heres the whole schematic

[limpid urchin]

I would get the cast screw recipe

[frank prawn]

😞

[mint coral]

you can just manifold it and over time itll balance itself

[meager kettle]

if you make 112.5 rods, you can just use a splitter and it will eventually self balance to 50 and 62.5

[limpid urchin]

Eh not really necessary could also just keep two separate belts from the constructers

[meager kettle]

can do that too

[mint coral]

you can also make one bank of machines making exactly 62.5 rods and another bank makling exactly 50 rods

[limpid urchin]

But tbh my designs are kinda weird anyways

I build like three times more machines then I need and then under lock them all

That way I can easily scale up factories after unlocking better belts

Just by changing clock settings

[frank prawn]

hmm alright, ill try these things out, thanks!

[vestal heart]

anyone build an optimization calc to plan layout efficiently

just finished my first play through and went with a mega bus design would be interested to see how people have gotten down to minimal mega factories

def some partially modular stuff i would do on the next run. items that go from low to high per min for example. some of those were a pain like quickwire

even cat ingots no point in pulling cat ore into my base should have just make ingots and pulled those in

[prisma kraken]

you mean like satisfactorytools.com ?

[vestal heart]

not like recipe balance like planning the shortest path between a bunch of lines

[prisma kraken]

idk what you're looking for then

you know, this game could use a bionic commando-style grappling hook

[steep tapir]

https://youtu.be/IDskCaAF5FI?si=IotRfrBJDCmjGS8q would this video work even though it’s old? Also does the conveyor version matter that much?

[vapid gorge]

100% efficient is click bait. any system you make can be 100% 'efficient'

and not sure what recipes it's using so maybe?

[vapid gorge]

a current plan for versatile frames https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=1ER3pFS2yPqFnaGBWEo7

[steep tapir]

Oh bet

Im bad at splitting tho

[vapid gorge]

the best part of not just copying a tutorial is that you'll have a much better understanding of what is going on and what to look for if something doesn't seem to be working

[vapid gorge]

just clock your machines into groups that make those splits. Don't merge them in the first place

22.5 rods pm and 30 rods pm? 2 groups of machines that make those

[steep tapir]

Oooh

Makes sense

[vapid gorge]

clocking is THE core mechanic of the game.
if you plan with it it removes like 99% of the obstacles in your designs

clock things everywhere

[steep tapir]

If I were to say

Overclock everything here to 250%

Would it still work but faster?

[vapid gorge]

... no? because clocking machines to 250% doesn't make a factory work faster

all it does is save you space

... which is fine? but until you have infinite shards it's a bit of a waste

[steep tapir]

https://tenor.com/view/huh-cat-huh-m4rtin-huh-huh-meme-what-cat-gif-5834484041415217257

It doesn’t make everything 2.5x faster?????

[vapid gorge]

if you have 2.5 machines making an item or 1x machine clocked at 250% , they are making the same amount of items

[steep tapir]

Yep

[vapid gorge]

because you need the same amount of parts

[steep tapir]

But I follow the thing you sent and instead of putting like, 36.628% on one and 19.2799% on the other I just crank everything to the max I should theoretically make many more

[vapid gorge]

not unless you give it more parts to use

[steep tapir]

Yeah when I say everything I mean EVERYTHING

[vapid gorge]

and at that point you could still design the system to run with machines at 100% and make the same as the system with 250%

[vapid gorge]

for the love of god do not just think in terms of clocking

[steep tapir]

Im mostly trying to get the frames as fast as humanly possible for the moment

[vapid gorge]

make a plan with an end goal
like this

and then clock as needed

like the beam constructors here?

it says you need 4 machines for this plan
that's 400% clocking however you like

if you clock 4 machiens to 250% that's not going to make 2.5x more items

[steep tapir]

My current plan is
follow the exact steps provided
Give everything steroids
Build a better factory while it burns the environment

[vapid gorge]

.... just plan with an end goal otherwise it's going to get fucked

and then clock as convenient

make the plan to do 100 frames pm if you want

[steep tapir]

Like factory mk ohfuckno

[vapid gorge]

....

[steep tapir]

Man that shit is FUCKED UP

[vapid gorge]

anyway good luck with things

[steep tapir]

Ty Ty

[steep tapir]

-# I js put a roof on it lmfao

[vestal heart]

what is the math on clocking. does it save you power if you tune things in a modular approach? seems like the buildings just shut off if they don't need to run

[bleak wagon]

How is this for a current train plan? Red is the track, green is stations. The black lines going to the station indicate the nodes that station is picking up and the nodes are labelled by rate Im getting with mk3 250% miners

[vapid gorge]

the increase in power use for over clocking and the decrease for under clocking, is such a small % change it really doesn't matter
Over clocking just saves you space. Which is nice? but not critical.
use clocking to more easily manage your logistics

if you want specific maths it's on the wiki but ... it's honestly not useful

[vapid gorge]

you'd have a much easier time of it if you set up more statoins. Most of the nodes are on the rail line but travelling huge distances to get to a different rail line

and that's really terrible terrain for trains

huge elevation changes

also without knowing wher ethe trains are going can't really comment on anything else

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I know the terrain in that area is awful. Its a rough outline of the path Im going for though. I do see better ways to do things now though after thinking a little about the needs for the items per minute in the train cars compared to whats being made.

[vapid gorge]

where are things being delivered, jsut the green dot up top?

[bleak wagon]

Yeah

[vapid gorge]

very short distances though, you'd probably benefit from making some of hte processing on site if you can

maybe grab a drone for the most awkward nodes

[vapid gorge]

those are very short routes. I'd honestly just do trucks for most of it

[bleak wagon]

yeah, I was considering trucks for it.

[vapid gorge]

train stations are massive and will take up a significant amount of the track space

saves a lot of pathign

and elevation changes, that water fall is annoying

don't need everythign running in multiple loops either. That goes for both trucks and trains

and I'm not saying you can't do your map, but it's a lot more work.

like if you do just love loops, yeah fuck it, do your loops 🙂

I build buildigns in circles so I'm not going to be a hypocrite about doing extra work

[bleak wagon]

Part of it is wanting to get a global train network going. I think for this though since I have the whole save planned already anyway I can build in specific areas like Im doing here and round up items with trucks then use trains/drones to take resources/parts from other parts of the map

[vapid gorge]

do you have the whole saved planned down to where all the factories are going to go as well?

[bleak wagon]

somewhat, I have very general ideas of the locations I plan to build in

[vapid gorge]

get the locations in concrete before you plan any sort of 'world train' system.

like absolutely finalised.

Even if you don't care about looks it'll save you a lot of time and effort

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, what Im doing over in the swamp is the depot factory, absolutely final location no doubt about it. Its the most central all the resources I need a lot of for it.

Depot factory and power plant*

[vapid gorge]

my advice is get teh rest down as well at least by zone and vague location within a zone

otherwise you'll have a lot of less than great rail lines going around

[bleak wagon]

bamboo fields/red jungle area is probably where I'll be doing my centralized complex parts

[vapid gorge]

you'd have to do a lot more transport doing that - most resources aren't available there in much quantity and it's a lot harder getting trains up there but it's an option

[bleak wagon]

its porbably going to be over the void hole actually lol

[vapid gorge]

well you could avoid most of the elevation tranposrt that way

and you can bring hte bauxite to the edge of hte cliff into a tall building

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, I could also do it on the west coast over the water between the rocky desert and the islands

gets close to about 3/4 of the bauxite and almost all the other resources

And its a requirement for thereto be train stations going in/out over there anyway so I can easily drag over quartz and the rest of the bauxite

[vapid gorge]

and you can still create a structure along the cliff to avoid vehicles moving thigns up or down

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, especially in that area by the water i prefer vertical expansion because having a huge flat build over the water looks kinda bad imo

[vapid gorge]

there's infinite flat space when you build multiple floors

[bleak wagon]

yeah

In the grass fields I'll probably do bio mechanical sculptors and AI expansion servers. My worry there would be oil though.

[jovial wren]

what were the old values for power consumption while overclocking before they changed it?

[unique cypress]

the exponent was 1.6 instead of log2(2.5) iirc

[vapid gorge]

you might be able to see if you look at the changelog in the old fandom wiki

[jovial wren]

i just want to see how absurd the power usage of a fully overclocked quantum encoder with sommersloops while on the old system would be

or is there another building that could potentially use more energy

[unique cypress]

it would be 35 GW peak

with current numbers it's 27

[jovial wren]

thats a lot of power

[cerulean stratus]

all fine and dandy until they need to speak to each other

[vapid gorge]

??

do you think belt lifts dont exist?

[bleak wagon]

I think I figured out my factory placements now after getting some sleep lol.
Yellow - Centralized Complex Parts
Red - Ballistic Warp Drives
Blue - AI Expansion Servers and Biomechanical Sculptors
Purple - Depot Factory
Green - Nuclear Power

I still have to place nuclear pasta somewhere, but its mainly going to be a game of round up the copper powder since pressure conversion cubes will be made somewhere else so Im ignoring it for now.

[meager kettle]

blue crater for nuclear?

[bleak wagon]

I know thats actually really funny considering its better for fuel power. Just somehow looks like it works out as one of the better map locations for how I wanted to do nuclear

[meager kettle]

not sure you'll have enough water tbh

[bleak wagon]

probably not now that I think about it

Probably gonna have to go to the northern most part of the rocky desert

[vestal citrus]

hi, im new to games like uh... nd trying to layout my new coal! power plants,

was this... ok? or idk,

if itll bite me in the future

[vestal heart]

No need to split it perfect feeding in. If you just run a single line down and drop splitters in front of the intake they will fill up

[wind spade]

--S--S--S--S--S--S
  |  |  |  |  |  |

also works 🙂

[dusky dust]

To add to the two answers you've already got: what you diagrammed up there would work fine, indeed, but what folks are recommending instead is called a "manifold."

It can feel a bit counterintuitive, but it's generally the easiest way to deliver material into a line of machines, and means that the only thing you've got to worry about is belt speed

What happens is that at first, the first machine in the line is getting way "too much" material, and the machines beyond it are getting too little

But after a short time, the input buffer on the first building fills up, and the belt feeding it backs up too, and now it's the next machine in the line getting "too much"

It too will fill up, and so on down the line, until once the system's warmed up properly, all machines will be consuming exactly what they need

So with a 120/min coal source, you could just feed that into a line of 8 coal gens, one splitter per gen, and after a bit of warm-up time all eight would be consuming exactly 15/min

[vestal citrus]

oh no i forgot stockpiles stop

[limpid vapor]

you can do perfect splits up to a point if you really want, but you will quickly realize it becomes basically (well, nearly) impossible as things get more complicated

[dusky dust]

You can, of course, continue to use "balancers" like you were doing before, where you try to split up an input into exactly what each machine needs, but that does require a lot more thought+planning, and tends to take up a lot of extra room, too

[zealous depot]

to add to the conversation on manifolds vs balancers, personally i like to use balancers in two scenarios.

1. balancers are very good when you're dealing with inputs that are not constant (e.g. biofuel powerplants, importing with trains or trucks [kinda] and handfeeding from a container)
2. balancers are good when you want all of the machines to start working at the same time (great for powerplants for a few reasons, also i think it ~feels~ better for powerplants)

in almost every other case i default to manifolds since they are just so much easier to set-up

[wind spade]

trains and trucks are practically constant

[modern lava]

Trains

[wind spade]

?

[modern lava]

Are you an effigy?

[zealous depot]

yeah, although theres the issue of if the factory consumes the product faster than the trains can import them. This results in the manifold running out completely which means it needs to fill up again and again (you will never get 100% efficiency for the factory). or if there's just barely enough product. this means the manifold fills up EXTREMELY slow meaning you need ALOT of time to get to 100% efficiency

[wind spade]

in that case balancer doesn't change anything vs manifold

total average efficiency would be the same

[zealous depot]

sometimes having 100% efficiency 50% of the time is better than having whatever efficiency 100% of the time

[wind spade]

can't think of a situation where that would have any reasonable difference

[zealous depot]

i think idleing machines take less power, i'm not sure though if its more efficient vs a half filled manifold

[wind spade]

the amount of machines running would be the same on average

[zealous depot]

i'd say it depends on how many items are coming in in each batch and how much the factory can consume

[wind spade]

not really. If both cases have same amount of items, both cases will have roughly same machine time

[zealous depot]

in the real world its generally better to run a race to sleep than have work being done 100% of the time

[wind spade]

this is not real world tho

and in fact, manifolds will stabilise the output more

[zealous depot]

yeah depends on what you want from the factory, fast processing or a more stable output

[wind spade]

fast processing only matters for the first batch

after that it's all items/min

[zealous depot]

i'd have to do some counting to really figure this out, i still feel having all the machines idle for a longer time is better in terms of power atleast

[wind spade]

to process X amount of items, you always need Y amount of seconds worth of machine running. Ratio between X and Y doesn't change ever

manifold vs balancer only changes how machines are filled, not their power usage

[zealous depot]

right, i still prefer to balance factories that get just a little less items in each delivery than what they need to run 100% efficiently.

maybe it will amount to some kind of issues later, but alteast i'm balanced B)

[wind spade]

which is fair, you can do anything you want

just saying that there's not really any reasonable benefit for it

(there's not many bad things that will happen either, just it's usually easier to manifold and done)

[zealous depot]

yeah i agree, most of the time manifolds are my go-to just because they are waaay easier to build

[vestal heart]

are trucks worth the effort? i tested one time and my truck kept driving off the platform

seemed so buggy to actually capture a pickup and dropoff

[dusky dust]

Yes, but you might want to wait until June 2 to start using them. v1.2 (which will be released then) overhauls the automated vehicle handling, so learning how to use them properly right now is probably a bit of a waste of time

[tepid mural]

So how do yall balance 3 inputs of screws 2 needing 600 each and then 1 needing 400 from 3 belts. 2 doing 620 and 1 doing 360

[dusky dust]

If you do want to use them now regardless, then note that you do often need more room for them than you might think you do. I'm not sure how extensive the "platform" is that you're tlaking about, but I'd also recommend just using the game's natural roads instead of building your own; vehicles work great on the natural roads

(That much is something I'd recommend regardless of whether you're using them right now, or in the forthcoming v1.2)

[vestal heart]

thats good to know thx. if i do another run id probably truck some stuff rather than worry about upgrading belts on certain runs

[dusky dust]

The "current" (soon-to-be-replaced) version can be 100% reliable; my Phase 2 factories have been using tractors as the backbone for all my logistics for some time now (and I continue to put in the odd vehicle route even well into the lategame). But, yeah, they've definitely got their quirks, and it can take practice to get good at them

And given that the system's being replaced quite shortly, just might not be worth the time to figure that out. :)

[vestal heart]

screws is something i would do more modular in my next go early game. if you can get cast screws just deliver iron ingots and build and feed directly in

the 5:50 ratio is difficult to manage on any type of bus

[dusky dust]

Oh, yeah, for screws: just make them directly in front of the machines which need 'em, in exactly the quantities they require

Don't bother trying to centralize those at all, or send 'em down manifolds or whatever.

[tepid mural]

Yes that’s what I have but I’m building a 40/min cooling system facility

[dusky dust]

Just direct-feed straight into the machine that needs 'em. That can often be trivialized with blueprints and such

[vestal heart]

i got a lot of steel recipes and stopped using screws

[dusky dust]

(see also: various other high-volume items)

[vestal heart]

that had its downsides too because my steel got fkd

[wind spade]

make exact amount of screws needed for each input

[unique cypress]

a normal 3:3 balancer

[steep tapir]

@vapid gorge I ended up going through my « basement » and discovered that I do actually have the parts already being produced 💀

For the frames or whatever they’re called

Versatile framework

[hollow rover]

need help on this. Focus only on 1st (1) conveyer line. How do I ensure that it prioritzes 600 on the 1st floor on machines instead of 3rd floor?

[median heath]

Smart splitter.

Tell it to send all the items to the first floor and Overflow to the third.

Guaranteed flow direction.

[hollow rover]

oh overflow, I thought it was only used for sushi belts

thanks

[median heath]

<Shrek "you thought wrong" gif here>

[vapid gorge]

I mean you don't even need a smart splitter, once 1 section is full it'll over flow on it's own

[hollow rover]

its not getting to 100% efficiency though, I think its because at 3rd floor, I have a priority merger that prioritizes 1st belt before 2nd belt

so I think its trying to output 50% to each floor

[median heath]

The question was how to give it priority. And smarts do that.

[vapid gorge]

are you merging sections like this?

[hollow rover]

yes, priority merger on 480 (1st belt)

[vapid gorge]

🤦

[median heath]

Smart splitters make things very simple even when not sushi-ing.

[vapid gorge]

yeah that's the reason.
you could try smart splitters with it but your initial problem was merging the belts and using priority mergers instead of just clocking your machines properly

if you are going to merge the systems, which I think is very silly, do an injection manifold

at the very least

[median heath]

Not a matter of try 😛

The smart will ensure 600 is sent to the first floor before anything is allowed to divert.

[viscid shadow]

yo, quick math question b/c this can't be right... i have 66 plutonium making at 0.5 a min, so thats 33/m, and the power plant uses them up at 0.1/m so thats 330 plants??? what?

[waxen mantle]

Yes.

[viscid shadow]

F

[waxen mantle]

I always shard nuclear

But it's still a lot of plants

[vapid gorge]

I mean don't sloop all your uranium rods and plutonium rods. You don't need that much power.

you can very very easily just not burn it all

[viscid shadow]

can you sinc plutonium rods?

[vapid gorge]

yes

you can also burn them in trucks and drones

[thorny marsh]

It is interesting how little you actually need to achieve stuff in this game.
Using nothing but 2000 oil, 2000 sam, 2000 sulfur and 6154 water per minute, it is possible to get:

• 15 per minute for each of Phases 1 & 2 deliverables,
• 2 per minute for each of Phase 3 deliverables,
• 0.9 per minute for each of Phase 4 deliverables,
• 0.6 per minute for each of Phase 5 deliverables,
  at the same time, with 3 gigawatts of energy left over.
  (Calculation details in https://pastebin.com/V6NerFra; no sloops, no power cells, and no power-consumption gaming by underclocking.)

[prisma kraken]

simple aluminum design

[viscid shadow]

lol what is with the absolute lack of flow control

[prisma kraken]

its called knowing how to use pipes 🙂

[viscid shadow]

You don't need a lot of things in this game

[prisma kraken]

the design doesn't do well if the output belts ever stop flowing, which can be a consideration in using it, but a simple sink solves that problem

[vapid gorge]

sure but they were complaining about it

[viscid shadow]

who was complaining about what?

[vapid gorge]

I'll let you scroll and read

[viscid shadow]

no i think you do, b/c it's me you are talking about

what part of that was a complaint?

[waxen mantle]

I'm creating a simple encased uranium cell setup. If I place the new sulfuric acid before the loop of sulfuric recycling like this, will it be lower priority than the sulfuric output from the blenders? (won't clog)

[vapid gorge]

your not only merging waste and fresh acid together but you have it on unstable surface, no it won't

[waxen mantle]

Oh

I wasn't aware the surface mattered TBH

[vapid gorge]

treat it like aluminium and keep the waste and fresh seperate - just clock the machines

and in general you want your fluid manifolds to be perfectly flat

[waxen mantle]

Cheers I'll just run some of the blenders purely on output sulfuric. Easy fix.

[vapid gorge]

it's basically the most reliable method for waste water, acid and dark matter residue

also, you'll want ot build on foundations 🙂

[prisma kraken]

pipes are incredibly sensitive to the altitude of the consuming ports. when they're not all level, the lowest altitude input ports will take priority. this causes multi-level manifolds to always stutter at the end, but just in general, keeping them level makes stuff easier

[waxen mantle]

Makes sense

[prisma kraken]

without looking more closely at it all, i couldn't say if i see a problem, but i know danger signs when i see 'em 🙂

[slow kiln]

@vapid gorge

[vapid gorge]

ok under clock one of the machines to like 50% , then let the whole thing flood, all pipes generators and extractors

after everything is full, upclock it again

[slow kiln]

I don't think I have underclocking if it's an unlock thing. But I did already put them all on standby to fill them up

I just couldn't understand why one row filled more quickly

When all were on.

[vapid gorge]

put one on stand by then

[vapid gorge]

won't take long
fluids are bidirectional

[slow kiln]

Oh no it's working now I don't have an issue once they were all full, I'm just trying to understand how the splitting works

Is it like a physics simulation?

So say if one side is falling from a further height it pushes more a certain way?

[vapid gorge]

liquids just flow to the more empty sections, and prefer to flow down

but trying to load balance fluids is ... not worth it. You have to build extremely specifically

flood the system as full pipes are happy pipes . and its a good way to trouble shoot a system

[slow kiln]

Cool

Ty

Also why am I playing a factory simulator...

And enjoying it...

[vapid gorge]

logistical planning is fun?

[slow kiln]

Hahaha it sounds hilarious but it's so real.

[vapid gorge]

and the architecture and planning sections together to fit really nicely is pleasant 🙂

[slow kiln]

Wah

How do you get conveyors in such neat circles... and are those machines floating??

[vapid gorge]

well theres no structural integrity in the game, so you can just build floating things, but in that area I just hadn't built under it yet

and there's a few ways to make curves in the game to follow and build the belts on
but there's also a curve mode now for belts you can do it easily with

[slow kiln]

For coal gens... I noticed if there limited power demand for biofuel it starts slowing it's energy production. Coal is always burning full speed? Not that it really matters since it's completely automated just curious

[prisma kraken]

yep

way back in early EA releases of the game, all generators throttled like the bioburners and it led to a lot of people underprovisioning water for coal plants and that turned into a big oopsie when you finally started drawing enough power

[vapid gorge]

it's the only power source that does that though

[prisma kraken]

which is the only source that does what?

[vapid gorge]

burn slower when it's not needed

[prisma kraken]

yep, a hack i'm sort of using on 5x power is that liquid biofuel in the bioburners makes the same power as in fuel generators and i've created a fairly large battery out of that

[sage zinc]

I am in the middle of building a mega-factory (yes, I know my problems are therefore self inflicted). I am just wondering how hard it might be to modify the source code for satisfactory tools to get it to calculate the outputs for the nearest whole number of buildings (eg if something require 5.68 refiners, it would round up to 6), and propogate that all the way back through the production chain. I am a relatively competent coder, but not a professional. I know a little TypeScript (I have done some work building Grafana Plugins). Or is something like satisfactory modeler better for that kind of job?

[unborn abyss]

I mean if it has a remainder after the whole then you just round up with an underclocked machine to still meet the required outputs

[sage zinc]

Yes, but for reasons I dont even understand myself I want them all to be running at the same clock speed. Because I havent made my life hard enough

[unborn abyss]

then round up and have a overflow line to sink the excess

hold up I dont think what I said makes sense, disregard me

round up and and allow the machines to not run 100% efficient

[unique cypress]

Do you accept sinking overflow of intermediate products or do you want all machines running at 100% speed and uptime while producing only one output

[unborn abyss]

that works bettertho I assume youre looking for max efficiency too

[sage zinc]

I am happy to sink off intermediate products, but I want all machines running at 100% and at 100% efficiency.

[unique cypress]

Then you can use SF Modeler and add overflow lines to every item, then manually round up starting from the final product

[sage zinc]

Thank you! I have never used SF modeler, so I will try to get me head around it!

[prisma kraken]

i just figure this out with a desktop calculator by dividing 5.68/6 = 94.6666%

[unique cypress]

You are gonna have to remake the tools plan in it manually, but then it's gonna automatically calculate how much is going to go to the overflow after you round up the machine and set up the sink

The alternative would be to tell tools to make excess of the intermediate items, but then you'd have to calculate how much excess you'll have

[prisma kraken]

also, i use runesun.com's satisfactory planner for the final modeling of a factory, which lets me set the clockrates i want manually

[vapid gorge]

just use this, then evenly deistribute the clocking between teh number of machines you want https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[vapid gorge]

it's a lot easier and faster than modeler too

[sage zinc]

This doesnt work very well when you need 350+ machines for 1 product...

[vapid gorge]

why not?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, modeler is way too clicky for my tastes

[sage zinc]

because of the limit to accuracy

[vapid gorge]

if you make a plan with this and it says 456.534 machines, that's just 45653.4% clocking distributed however you like

[sage zinc]

But also, I specifically want everything running at 100%. Which is definitely adding to the self made problems!

[vapid gorge]

then just figure out your final output then round up every single step before it and sink it

still way faster than modeler

[sage zinc]

haha, OK. I might try that, if its faster

[unique cypress]

Eh, it's still a bunch of manual work

Because you have to calculate how much is gonna be in the overflow

And add it to tools as output

[sage zinc]

Whichever way I do it will be a pain. <sigh>

[unique cypress]

Unless just rounding up and overflowing the original plan is fine?

But idk if that's gonna make all machines run at 100%

Yeah no it won't

Machines with 2+ inputs break it

[sage zinc]

Yes

[sage zinc]

This was a bad idea. there are so many interconnections it is getting silly!

I am going to have to abandon this idea

[unique cypress]

You have to start from the final product and work downwards one step at a time

Then you'll only need one pass over the entire graph

Do not round any item until you've rounded everything made from it

[sage zinc]

The problem is the my graph is horendously complex - #screenshots message

[wind spade]

That looks like pain even without any selr-imposed restrictions

Split it into smaller projects

[sage zinc]

I might create a new project for every part, then I can sum across tabs. Is there a limit in your site for how many factories one can have?

Ahh, but that creates the same problem, just spread about. or creates massive oversupply in the lowest tier parts

[vapid gorge]

why are you acting like you're surprised? that's literally your goal

[sage zinc]

Fair

[unique cypress]

It shouldn't be a massive oversupply

It's max 1 machine for each item

[sage zinc]

In my head i was going to round for each individual part. Which is where the massive oversupply will come in. I will need to sit down and think a bit more carefully about this when my brain is functioning.

[wind spade]

well, the problem will always exist, because you have weird self-imposed goals 🙂

[wind spade]

it's not, because it scales with each step

[sage zinc]

I mean wierd self imposed goals is kinda the whole point of the game for quite a lot of players...

[wind spade]

I mean sure, but you seem to be complaining about having issues which you caused yourself by setting that goal 😛

[sage zinc]

But I am enjoying the complaining 😆

[wind spade]

you do you 🙂 my recommendation would still be to not do that™

[sage zinc]

I am very much starting to think that I will just drop that ridiculousness. especially given I will be doing lots of merging/splitting etc, so it will all sort itself out.

[unique cypress]

Well yeah but all but one machine (or less) but it gets used up in the next steps

So it's max 1 machine per item that gets sunk

[wind spade]

you honestly just need to clock each step

[old hearth]

yay

nuclear

but somehow more complicated than normal

[meager kettle]

fertile 🤢

[old hearth]

no comrade

all the recipes

[meager kettle]

fertile

[old hearth]

yes

but i have two trees

one using fertile

[meager kettle]

why

[old hearth]

one without

[old hearth]

all alts playthrough

have to use every alt in some significant manner

[heady sun]

anyone have the chart of how much throughput a train station can support

[median heath]

!wikisearch train throughput

[glad apex]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=train+throughput

[prisma kraken]

sounds fun. let me know if default battery can be built w/o locking up if you recycle the wastewater 😄

[old hearth]

i imagine its not that hard, you just gotta build seperately run systems

[prisma kraken]

without really diving into the math on it, you can get about 600/min per car for 100-stack items and the 50, 200, and 500 stack sizes adjust that by proportionate amounts

[old hearth]

oh

i kinda way overcompensated then

i have 3 cars for 600 items per min

[prisma kraken]

it also depends on your round trip time. my numbers are for round trip times of 5-6 minutes. if you are hauling stuff across the map, you'll need to adjust for that

i tend to compensate for longer trip times with more trains though

[frank sail]

these numbers are bugged, right?

[oblique hollow]

no, just slightly inaccurate display

602 = 600

the displayed values dont perfectly match the actual flow because this is technically just some kind of "gauge" measuring the flow

[frank sail]

good to know

thanks

[meager kettle]

I found they show quite inaccurate

Flow ramps up to max almost instantly but the UI shows it taking minutes to hit max

[wind spade]

well they are running average

[heady sun]

isnt there a google sheet that has the exact throughputs accounting for round trip time and stuff

[median heath]

I linked you the page with that information, no?

[prisma kraken]

i wouldn't be surprised if there is, the math is on the wiki for it, and there may be a link. any calculation you do however is going to be an approximation of real life circumstance and won't account for congestion and other hidden variables. My thought is if the math is inexact, why not just do a cheap estimation instead of a more detailed and slightly more exact estimate and then empirically see if things work 🙂

[heady sun]

https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3st6opd3w7 found it

[unique cypress]

I found mine to be accurate enough that I didn't have to rebuild anything using it to estimate the number of wagons/trains needed
https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nxitzy44mf

[raven mountain]

Which is better for mid/late ?

[median heath]

Better is subjective.

[raven mountain]

For modular cubes

[gusty moss]

wichever is easier for you to mass produce of them

boring answer, but i dont have the facts around them myself

[median heath]

Boring or not, it is the correct answer.

There is no outright objective "best" recipe choice.

[prisma kraken]

that doesn't account for 1200/min max belt speed

[gusty moss]

there are some tho.. that is sticking out as crazy good.. i dont really think any of these qualify for that.. like diluted fuel is crazy good when making lots of fuel, espessially if you play 5x power, 2x recipe, etc game in 1.2

[median heath]

That's 1. 🙂
What are the rest of these "some"?

[gusty moss]

hehe, only one i could think of, but there are prolly a few more, but that is for more skilled ppl than me to tell

[oblique hollow]

diluted fuel is almost always a good use because its basically the only alt recipe for fuel itself (DPF and DF are the same anyway in my eyes)

[median heath]

Every tierlist I have read is complete crap and entirely subjective with personal bias. 🤷‍♂️

Cast Screw is pretty much the only straight upgrade with no tradeoff recipe in the game.
Everything else is a + v.s. - decision that comes down to personal preference. Most oftentimes making 1 recipe "good" only if you also chain it with several other recipes.

[old hearth]

imo stitched plated

but the imo is very important

[prisma kraken]

the stitched plate alt reduces the number of iron plates needed, which has a massive impact on how many rips you can make per mineral node. the bolted alt exists more for density & speed and as such is less power hungry. imho, both of those recipes aren't as 'good' as the rubber+iron plate alt you'll have access to once you get to phase 3.

[gusty moss]

i like that rubber+iron aswell

[old hearth]

reject tierlists, make solid aluminum rotors

[prisma kraken]

coupled with coated iron plate for the plates, rips become rather inexpensive

[median heath]

Aluminium Screws from Aluminium Beams 😄

[unique cypress]

yeah but only useful if you have oil nearby
bringing in oil specifically for plates seems silly when you can make them out of just iron

[prisma kraken]

speaking of, has anyone really found a useful place to use the alum rod & beam recipes?

[old hearth]

its actually more effiecient to use the base recipe and not steel screws

[gusty moss]

haha, yea, some alts screw you over

[old hearth]

well aluminum tods into regular

[median heath]

That sounds like something you'd find said on a tierlist.

[old hearth]

by like 4 fold

[prisma kraken]

it ends up being a lot of machines that need to be arranged in manifold. Large power to save on iron? no thanks.

[old hearth]

well in my case i have

1000 ish extra aluminum ingots

also i have to use all alts and this is the funiest way to do so

[prisma kraken]

i'll take them if you have some to spare 😄

[neat crest]

all the computer & circuit board recipes are so unsatisfying to me. I feel stuck I don't want to commit to any of them

[unique cypress]

I like caterium for both

[old hearth]

do all of them at the same time and maker logistics hell

[neat crest]

the 10:7 circuit board is actually depressing

I hate 7s

[old hearth]

bro is gonna HATE quartz

[neat crest]

actually I think I just figured out what to do. I need 32+20 circuit boards, so I will make 7x caterium circuit boards and 3 electrode circuit boards. still all oil and caterium and no ugly inputs

[neat crest]

oh believe me on my longest run I made an incredibly gigantic blender silica plant just to cancel out bad ratios

[unique cypress]

all ratios are the same to me 🤷‍♂️

could be e to pi for all I care

[prisma kraken]

what i did was make excess cb's with cat cb to round it to a multiple of 7 and used the remainder to make acu's

[old hearth]

the blender recipe has worse ratios to balance, what you talking about

[old hearth]

what is fet were 1-e to the i pi

[neat crest]

I made the plant so big that I forgot how ugly they were

[median heath]

The only Computer recipe it doesn't behave with is actually the Caterium one.

[old hearth]

we heart using that recipe when there is a 9 silica to 5 quartz crystal ratio

[harsh coral]

It doesn't work I am not happy

[old hearth]

What isn't working

[median heath]

🖇️

[harsh coral]

The rubber and plastic

Rubber is used for plastic and vise verse but for some reason it doesn't work even if I manually feed some to get it going

[old hearth]

Hmm

[harsh coral]

I'm ngl I don't expect a solution it's a big factory I'm just annoyed

[old hearth]

What's happening like, actually

Like are the pipes clogging

[harsh coral]

Nah the liquids are fine I fixed them

It's a 82 computer a minute factory

[old hearth]

I mean mine uses 3000 oil per minute and works at 100% efficiency so Its not too difficult

[harsh coral]

Mines only 600 oil but I made all the pipes work that took me a while but

I replaced every last one to be efficient

Its the plastic

Hopefully my math is wrong idk if U can see it in the middle but there are a few chests that have plastic that feed everything but it won't match up and gain plastic if I also turn on the circuit board farm

[old hearth]

This is a recycled plastic plant correct?

[harsh coral]

I can send you the link to the tools thing if U want

But yea

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=eP4QV4SMbO6xRaI96jID

[old hearth]

the numbers seem fine

[harsh coral]

Hopefully I just messed up an output but I cannot redo the math

[old hearth]

all i can imagine is a lack of overflow smart splitters

[median heath]

Recycled Loop math is simple though?
1 Oil = 3 Product

[harsh coral]

I mean as in like thinking about the entire machine it all takes plastic

[old hearth]

his math is that

[median heath]

Then his math is good 👍

[old hearth]

i think, i havent actually mathed it out but it looks right

[median heath]

Problems from the screenshot include: non-looped pipes, clipping.

[harsh coral]

I mean as in since I only have lvl 5 conveyers I need to have separate plastic lines so I can actually move all that

[harsh coral]

Sry wdym

[old hearth]

pipes need to go around in some kind of loop when they are more than about 400-450 product per minute

[median heath]

You see how in the middle your pipe manifolds come to dead stops, which causes sloshing and fucks up everything you can hope to achieve?

Yeah, don't do that.

[harsh coral]

I KNEW IT I KNEW THAT WAS AN ISSUE sorry sorry I spent 5h fixing that stupid pissing sloshing

I did it with liquid storage instead

[old hearth]

as a rule of thumb, liquid storages are very bad for sloshing

[harsh coral]

Really

[median heath]

Idk how people don't see this issue outright 😭
Like if you have ever as a child pushed the water in a bathtub or other large container... you know it hits the end and then pushes backwards.

[harsh coral]

I believe U I will fix it but It seemed to do the trick

[old hearth]

i dont have the link on hand but look up the fluid manual

[harsh coral]

Ik but my game was odd the liquids wouldn't go down pipes I had to do it really weirdly so I struggled

[old hearth]

only time i would ever use fluid buffers is for stuff like transporting fluids with trains or trucks

[median heath]

Trains*

[old hearth]

i said trains

[median heath]

Train logistics is the sole practical use of fluid buffers.

Trucks don't need them.

[old hearth]

how?

[harsh coral]

But hypothetically if the pipes are fine what else could it be

[median heath]

Ok - why do trains need them?

[old hearth]

the downtime

where its loading

[median heath]

And trucks don't have that.

[old hearth]

or unloading

[old hearth]

i swear to god they do

ive seen it

[median heath]

Swear all you want. They don't.

[old hearth]

unless fluid tucks are different

[median heath]

No.

[harsh coral]

They have loading time but it's like super quick

I think

[old hearth]

true

[median heath]

Trucks of any kind do not have station lockout during load/unload.

It is not about speed of load/unload

[harsh coral]

Ohhh wait he means like liquids and items can be added while docking

[median heath]

It is that trains physically lock out the station during the process.

[harsh coral]

Trains don't have that

[median heath]

Trucks do not.

[unique cypress]

look through each step and look where inputs are missing and where outputs are backed up. somewhere between those 2 points is where the mistake is

[harsh coral]

Kk ty

[median heath]

Platform lockout is why trains need to be buffered.
Trucks not having it is why they beat trains in throughput, and don't need buffers.

[old hearth]

do drones have lockout?

[median heath]

Nope.

[old hearth]

damn

oh well, the spot i haved the buffer shouldnt matter

i accounted for weirdness

[median heath]

Drones have the unique property of being able to drop and pick simultaneously as well.

[old hearth]

i do use this for moving nitrogen from the rocky dessert to the gold coast

[median heath]

When there is a nitrogen well much closer?

[old hearth]

super nice cause im a chud who used regular diluted fuel for it

[median heath]

What does Diluted have to do with nitrogen?

[old hearth]

i di not wanna deal with that infrastructue, and i already needed drones

[old hearth]

thats what i fuel the drones with, so it saves a lot of fuel

well, just those drones

[median heath]

Ah.

[old hearth]

my other ones use batteries

cause rocket fuel is boring and op

[median heath]

I agree.

[old hearth]

and convienently enough the battery factory is right next to my mega nuclear power plants which use a lot of road infrastructure

[heady sun]

less op than nuclear

[old hearth]

eh

no

rocket fuel is the definition of op in this game

[median heath]

Agree.

[heady sun]

how

[median heath]

GW per effort.

[old hearth]

rocket fuel is like

super simple

nuclear is a fucking nightmare

[meager kettle]

nuclear makes more power, but its also more effort. and you can beat the game on a single oil node made into rocket fuel

heck could do it on a single oil node made into fuel :p

imo, setting up a nuclear chain all the way to ficsonium is kinda the end game :p

[old hearth]

im doing that rn

with really weird numbers

[meager kettle]

dont need to do it, but its a testament to mastery of production and logistics

[old hearth]

and solid aluminu rotors

[meager kettle]

what now?

[old hearth]

its a testament to how much ur willing to use sloops as well

[old hearth]

my factory is going to be making solid aluminum rotors

[meager kettle]

unless you use all uranium and go for maximum power of 1470gw, you dont need to use sloops

[old hearth]

cause funny

[old hearth]

i am, but im not maxxing it out, but almost

[meager kettle]

solid aluminium rotors aint a thing? unless you mean using aluminium rods

[old hearth]

aluminum rods for screws

well actually, aluminum beams for screws and rods for the rotors themselves

its very silly

[bleak wagon]

Yeah, pretty much. I only do it because i want to.

[old hearth]

im doing mega power cause silly, i have rocket fuel turbo fuel ionized fuel 4 fueled augmentors and all the uranium in the world

[bleak wagon]

Max power is the true end game fr

[old hearth]

i mean im not even gonna be at max power

but 2.2 gw is a lot sooo

tw*

[strange apex]

im just starting to use trains and im having some truble becase i cant figure out how to make them strait and not zigzagy and also they keep going underground.

[unique cypress]

simple
build on foundations

[strange apex]

hmm

but that is kinda ugly

[unique cypress]

better than whatever this is

[fiery tendon]

U can delete foundations afterwards

[old hearth]

something like this is an option

floating rails

[strange apex]

wth is that

[old hearth]

rails

in the sky

[strange apex]

im in phase 2 what are thos things on the track

[old hearth]

ur not in phase two if you have rails

[strange apex]

?

[old hearth]

but its all decor

[strange apex]

oh

[meager kettle]

ugly :(

[strange apex]

dosent thin mean im in phase 2 and mid way though phase 3?

[old hearth]

how many beams are in that one circle

[meager kettle]

beams? 0

[strange apex]

this looks fire

[old hearth]

no ur in phase 3

[strange apex]

oh

[unique cypress]

no it means you're in phase 3

[meager kettle]

pillars tho, around 20

[strange apex]

is this ok or will my train derail or smth

[old hearth]

yeah

its just ugly as shit

[strange apex]

yeah as in its finr?

[meager kettle]

trains gives zero f's about terrain

[strange apex]

fine*

[dusky dust]

The only things that trains care about colliding with is other trains (which would cause a derailment). For everything else they just clip through. (For the Pioneer and mobs , I believe trains'll knock them out of the way)

[strange apex]

also i wish there was a way to elivate train tracks like u do converurs

[dusky dust]

I mostly build elevated rail, just have to make your own supports (generally in a blueprinter so they're easily laid down)

#screenshots message / #screenshots message / #screenshots message / #design-and-architecture message (not my own, just linking to some examples)

Anyway, gotta work for it, of course, but rail can definitely be elevated. :D

(Personally I go for a more "disconnected pillar" type arrangement, 'cause I don't have the patience for rail that looks that nice. I make some nice-enough-looking-to-me pillar support blueprints and let my rail be unsupported between them.)

[strange apex]

do they interact with train tracks there not on?

[old hearth]

no

its only other train tracks that matter

[strange apex]

u said no then u said yes so what is it

[old hearth]

mb i had to leave

yeah its fine is what i meant

[strange apex]

which one tho

[old hearth]

most shit in this game does not care what you clip into

[heady sun]

how does fluid truck throughput compare to fluid train

[dusky dust]

No, but if there's a train on the other track, they would collide

[median heath]

Just like freight truck: it wins.

[vapid gorge]

also rails don't have to visible clip to clip. this is the closest you can make reails and not have them clip on turns

[vapid gorge]

you really can't compare trucks and trains , you can always have multiple trucks on a path for more throughput w/o issues and it's easy to have multiple cars on a train

[orchid brook]

if this is at 250% does it mean 1 will be at 250 and the other at 28?

[prisma kraken]

i believe that means one machine running at 128%, or 2 running at (100 & 28) or 2 at 64%

how you choose to configure the clocks doesn't much matter until you care about performance characteristics of manifolds and maintainability

i'm not familiar with modeler's notation. if that's 1.28 machines at 250%, set the clock down to 160% and turn that 1.28 into 2

[orchid brook]

i just did 2 at i think 160%

[waxen mantle]

Correct, use the auto-round feature for even building count

[orchid brook]

ok thanks

[meager kettle]

1.28 into one at 250% and one at 28% cannot be right

if 1 = 250% then 0.28 would be 70%

[stone jetty]

Using all sloops, excluding the ones needed for research. As well as any power shards and sam conversion. What is the maximum plutonium fuel rods can one make? I think with sloops, Plutonium Fuel Unit alt recipe might be best.

[meager kettle]

22.4 Pu rods/min

You can technically make 31. But it's not a good idea

That's without sloops tho. Cause slooping it, not good idea unless you just gonna store waste

[stone jetty]

I NEED as many as possible. It fuels my drones. I have a lot of drones

[meager kettle]

Slooping the Fuel units, is 18 assemblers, 2 each. 36 sloops. 22.4 become 44.8 Pu rods. then slooping instant cells is 18 particle accelerators, which each take 4. so 72 sloops, but then you get double the assemblers for fuel units, and you need 72 there too, which is more than you have

you dont

22.4 pu rods/min could prob fuel a million drones

each rod has 1.500.00 MJ of power in it, a single drone could do liek 100 round trips on one rod

[stone jetty]

I have, or will have 2555 ish drones, Im not finished. I think the fuel per minute was 0.026 for across map flight. But I need to double check that. Normal creative save. Not all pure.

[terse onyx]

What is the most I could make of a possible item.

[slow kiln]

69

[stone jetty]

satisfactory tools calculator is good at answering and showing you that.

[meager kettle]

its not per minute, its per trip

[vapid gorge]

your computer will crash before you can have that many, but good luck

[vapid gorge]

pick the recipes and hit maximise https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[terse onyx]

K, just found out you can make 9.5 million screws

[meager kettle]

so if you have 0.026 rods/trip across map, the travel time is probably in the viconity of 7-8 minutes. so the actual use would be 0.003-0.004 rods/min

[vapid gorge]

that doesn't sound right

[terse onyx]

With all pures nodes. 5 million normally

[meager kettle]

which would be ~10 Pu rods/min total for 2555 drones. tho you prob will brick your save before that happens

[vapid gorge]

I mean w/o pure nodes I'm seeing 5 mill

and at that poin you might as well argue for a mod that gives you infinite nodes

[stone jetty]

I have almost finished the drone hook up and my pc has a heart attack if i open the map. But it's a dream.

[stone jetty]

the 0.02 is what the port reports per minute. I did some backwards math with ion fuel as it has the same speed to figure its 0.026 for pluto fuel.

[meager kettle]

the port reports per trip

[stone jetty]

my save is 24.5 mb. It grows.

[meager kettle]

show the time too

cause the per min value is usually wrong

[stone jetty]

0.026PM times 2555 drones equals 66.43. Now the number of drones aren't done. But not all will need to fly at the same time. It's possible for this to work. Although the bug with drones freezing is annoying.

[meager kettle]

yea, so nearly 5 minutes, but the diffrence between per trip and per min is only 3

its doing some severe rounding there

[stone jetty]

A lot of the actual save's drones paths are mostly shorter. So this is closer to the higher end of the paths.

[stone jetty]

So is the per minute wrong? How do i find it's true time?

[meager kettle]

for plutonium its hard. cause of the low consumption, but basically count how much fuel it uses over a length of time

and if you want an example how wrong it can be

[stone jetty]

oof, yae that's very wrong. I really want to be able to fuel this with stock sloops and base nodes. I'm not even sure how the power will all work. But if I must, I will use more then base game sloops. I'd just prefer not to.

[meager kettle]

(its not using 55 pu rods/trip)

you might wanna rethink your plan tho, cause your save will not survive than many drones

[stone jetty]

I wish you could choose for drones to only take off when full.

[meager kettle]

not really an issue with drones, you can fill the inventory of 9 stacks pretty quick

and with the long ass landing/take off times, unless your distance is like 400m it'll fill

[vapid gorge]

I really don't think that's accurate. 1 plu rod has about 250 batteries of energy in them and batteries last longer than that. I truly would not rely on ANY of the vehicle meter readings

[vapid gorge]

flood the system on the other end, then launch the drone

that way the drone has to stay at the drop off point until it's comlpetely empty, by then you should have another full load

[stone jetty]

I have drones on both ends. Instead of having to flood it. It's help me save fuel and automate things a bit more. The more fuel I can save the better.