math-and-meta

[sour bison]

yeah i noticed that once i sent it, already fixed

[unique cypress]

I'd also aim for a whole number of refineries for those for convenience

[sour bison]

can just underclock

[unique cypress]

I usually don't like touching clock speed if I don't have to

and I rarely have to

[sour bison]

i dont mind doing it

[visual yarrow]

does anyone have any idea why satisfactory tools seems to absolutely hate basic iron ingot? like, some negative to the recipe i'm missing? or is it just a quirk of that particular algorithm

it'll quite literally go through every single other way to make iron ingots, including the default and leached iron, before using basic

[limpid vapor]

why not only leave the actual recipe you want used, enabled?

how is it supposed to know what recipe you prefer

[visual yarrow]

that's not what i'm saying

what i'm saying is that the fact that it seems to actively avoid using that particular recipe makes me wonder if there's a reason why that I haven't considered

like.. some reason to conserve limestone I haven't thought of.

[limpid vapor]

i would assume it depends on the particular situation, only greeny knows though

[visual yarrow]

the only thing I can think of is that the relative production rate is not enough of an increase, given that iron is already very commonplace?

[hoary oar]

probably just because using 2 resources is "more expensive" than using 1

[visual yarrow]

yeah but out of the five ways to make iron ingots, it's the least prioritized, including below leached, which uses sulfuric acid

not a lot of acid, mind you, but...

hmm. let me put it another way. based on how the calculator usually prioritizes recipes, what resources it tends to try to conserve, basic iron's situation seems sort of abnormal?

at least that's my own observation

[hoary oar]

yeah idk, can be weird sometimes

[visual yarrow]

honestly, it kinda seems to like conserving limestone in general? like it doesn't like to recommend cloudy diamonds, for instance

[hoary oar]

it could also be taking power consumption in to account
combined with resource requirements, it might make the basic iron ingot recipe the least desired

[visual yarrow]

now that I think of it, it also really doesn't like using the molded steel recipes

[limpid vapor]

Idk I wouldn't count on recommendations, whatever it spits when you have all recipes selected, why does it matter anyway? The best recipe combinations are always situational in practice

[visual yarrow]

it really really just loves concrete and believes it to be precious I suppose

[visual yarrow]

once again, this is not relevant to what i'm asking. i'm trying to figure out if there is a specific reason for this that I hadn't thought of, such as... say, the concrete requirement of singularity cells

[limpid vapor]

Ask greeny directly, anyone else can only give you guesses

[unique cypress]

because it optimizes for WP - % of the world's resources used

[hoary oar]

unless you max out ficsonium or ballistic warp drives you don't need all that many singularity cells

[unique cypress]

water's infinite so it'll always use pure if it can

[limpid vapor]

So all resources are valued the same?

[visual yarrow]

so because it outputs fewer items than it inputs, essentially, is what you're saying?

[hoary oar]

yeah, but for some reason it also prefers to use leached iron ingot and even just the default recipe over basic iron ingot

[unique cypress]

no, each one is valued inversely to its abundance

[limpid vapor]

Ah

[visual yarrow]

i guess since there's technically more iron than limestone, it maths out poorly

[plucky tusk]

You can still use basic iron even if the calculator tells you not to

[visual yarrow]

sigh

[unique cypress]

because there's less limestone than iron, you're using more of a "more expensive" resource to save a "less expensive" resource
and it uses more limestone than iron so it's extra expensive
alloy at least uses only a little bit of copper

[versed violet]

You may want to select your preferred recipes in the list, otherwise it tries to maximize output and picks funky recipes that take lot of energy and space (eg pure recipes). I personally rank recipes by weighted power usage (similar to Weighted Points) and how annoying they are to build vs output given. Pure recipes - nope, copper alloy = win.

[visual yarrow]

i'm still kind of surprised that it weights leached over basic, though

actually... quick headmath...

roughly 7 times more limestone than sulfur, recipes are both 5 iron in, 10 out, 1 sulfur to 8 limestone... guess that explains it

[unique cypress]

it's only 1 sulfur for 5 iron, vs 8 limestone for 5 iron. there's 70k limestone and 11k sulfur. 1 sulfur is equivalent to <7 limestone, so leached is cheaper

[versed violet]

weighted energy usage is lowest for basic recipe, followed by iron alloy

[visual yarrow]

i guess that would also probably explain why it loves pointlessly converting things unless you disable it

[unique cypress]

It only converts for uranium, bauxite and sulfur I noticed

[visual yarrow]

i see it convert for nitrogen a lot

[unique cypress]

I guess those conversion recipes are particularly favorable

[visual yarrow]

lowest = better in this case, aye? and is that accounting for the extraction cost?

[unique cypress]

then idk what you're doing because outside of limiting nitrogen or maximize mode, I've never seen it do that once

[versed violet]

yes, weighted extraction cost is included, and with uranium, we get weird results that its "cheaper" to convert buxite into it (as uranium is way rarer)

[visual yarrow]

it took one attempt

[unique cypress]

maximize?

[versed violet]

you probably want to disable specific recipes you do not want to use. calculator will warn you if you try to make more than map can provide.

[visual yarrow]

okay, that's interesting

[unique cypress]

because when making FMF, it extracts nitrogen, but conmvers for bauxite
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=sLBeuMFR70TkhGPJoVqo

[visual yarrow]

this is set to maximize for ficsonium fuel rods, but if I set the same desired amount as the maximized version, it stops converting for nitrogen

[unique cypress]

that's because maximize mode does not optimize for WP

[visual yarrow]

but it DOES convert for caterium now

[unique cypress]

huh, so it does

never noticed that

[versed violet]

If interested in the energy/recipe table, the full excel is available here. Mind it does not auto calculate the result - just static data.
-> https://github.com/Tomtores/Satisfactory/tree/main/PowerEfficiency

[visual yarrow]

you know, I bet that at least part of the reason you get weird conversions has to do with that slight net increase you can get in conversion loops

or... actually, no, I think what's throwing me off... uh

I think it's because I expect it to try to avoid using resources it's already used a lot of

[unique cypress]

fun fact: you can make HMFs out of only SAM at the low, low price of 750 apiece
https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=THEJFEjhcEtIh4JlHPRy

[visual yarrow]

is that raw sam or rehabilitated sam

...did I say rehabilitated?

[unique cypress]

raw

[visual yarrow]

i am really tired apparently

[thorn trail]

I see that doggo jail is still on your mind from earlier

[visual yarrow]

pfft, there is no rehabilitation going on there. just the induction of sadness

it occurs to me that part of the reason I always hit such a wall with HMF production is because my production line habits trend towards me wanting to ridiculously overproduce

[unique cypress]

how many are you making?

[visual yarrow]

well

[limpid vapor]

remember this caveman drawing from earlier? for my own sanity, the only difference between having ISCs at the input side vs output side, is that, if i had them at the front, the train would unload all at the same time. and if at the end, i get a staggered offload? right?

[visual yarrow]

I usually have aimed for 45/m

i managed to talk myself into only doing 15/m to "start"

[unique cypress]

ah, yeah, 45 is a bit much

I usually make 1/2 to 3/4 of that

[limpid vapor]

i make 18, it took a lot to set that up

[versed violet]

do trains arrive at the same time, always? or is that single station?

[visual yarrow]

the problem right now is that doing 45/m happens to end up using exact amounts of leftover resources I have

[limpid vapor]

its a single station accepting delivery from a single train that only leaves when fully loaded or unloaded

[unique cypress]

I always put containers immediately before/after the platorms but idk if that matters tbh

[limpid vapor]

i do that too, most of the time

but idk somehow ended up having them after the split for this

[visual yarrow]

as long as there is a direct connection to an ISC, it should be fine, even if the belts travel a bit

[limpid vapor]

the first 3 unload sooner, then the train waits a bit

[visual yarrow]

though.. if one of the belts was significantly longer than the other...

[versed violet]

In case of buffering with ISC, we do that to have constant supply, so you are really limited by the feeding belt on load side and output belt on unload side and you expect both belts to operate at 100% all the time. so no point in staggering anything.

[visual yarrow]

so im slightly confused about what's actually being discussed, but IMO, use the "fully load/unload" options as a method of reducing train traffic

[limpid vapor]

if you are referring to the other station thats loading, thats a black box

[visual yarrow]

rather than for throughput

[unique cypress]

it increases throughput too

[limpid vapor]

the stagger is just a side effect of how it is set up

[unique cypress]

because it's impossible to get the max theoretical throughput with the default settings

[limpid vapor]

i am

[visual yarrow]

i mean, approach them from the perpsective of train traffic.

[limpid vapor]

the topic is unloading 8 train cars evenly into 15 machines

[visual yarrow]

oh so you want to throttle the containers, then

i have an example, one sec

[versed violet]

which is why we use two belts to isc but only connect one out - the whole system averages to the speed of out belt. you can pull a bit more, but one belt is safe and guaranted.

[limpid vapor]

my system relies on the bottleneck provided by the refineries consuming the coal

[unique cypress]

1 belt isn't guaranteed with default settings if you fuck it up enough kekw

[versed violet]

it absolutely is, as long as the trains course often enough (enough of them) to keep the station full

[limpid vapor]

its been running for a couple of hours, and so far it seems the rhythm is more or less the same for every offload, each transport cycle is around 21 minutes

[unique cypress]

nope. if you have too many trains, they can block the station often enough that you drop below 1 belt

[visual yarrow]

okay so this is a drone port, but the concept should still apply. i've set it up so that the storage container on stilts is bottlenecked and outputs exactly 180/m on average

[versed violet]

on the extreme end, but if stations are close enough that trains spend more time docking than travelling, perhaps its too many trains

[unique cypress]

that's why I said "if you fuck it up enough"
if you just spam trains with default settings, it decreases throughput
with "depart when empty/full" it at worst does absolutely nothing

[visual yarrow]

and once you have an exact amount of throughput that is reliably being output from 8 sources, you can then ratio balance 8 : 15... assuming I understood the quesiton

[limpid vapor]

whats bottlenecking that container

[visual yarrow]

mk3 belt outputting from it, three way split, merges two, sends the third belt back around to a priority merger

with priority set higher to the looped material, since the drone port has it's own internal buffer

you can see here that the return belt has a steady item "tempo"

[limpid vapor]

i initially had a setup with priority mergers and stuff, it didnt work out for me xd

[visual yarrow]

strictly speaking, the 180/m is then immediately split into three mk1 belts, but this built was a proof of concept

[limpid vapor]

i do like the extra challenge of not relying on a specific type of belt

that might not also always work

only works with very specific numbers that might not fit what i need

[visual yarrow]

i'm... also not actually sure why I split it into three mk1 belts, given that two of them immediately merge back into one anoter

other than aesthetics. I like the way it affects belt tempo

i'm curious as to what might be possible with loopbacks and priority mergers for the sake of controlling the spacing of items on belts

[limpid vapor]

probably a lot

my question was at its core about whether i can rely on the system i built, while i have ISC at the end of the splitting system, while they are traditionally before any such system

[visual yarrow]

well, based on my train knowledge, I think it's hypothetically possible, but you would probably need more sinks than you would otherwise

[limpid vapor]

there are no sinks involved here, its designed to consume exactly what is mined on the other end

[unique cypress]

If you built an actual balancer, I wouldn't worry about it, but because it's not one, you'd have 8 full belts coming in, being compressed unevenly into 5. the top 3 would be slowed down differently than the lower 5

[visual yarrow]

so here's the thing- is this all a single type of item?

[limpid vapor]

i just cant wrap my head around why it wouldnt end up split and merged evenly with this system

[unique cypress]

not sure if that's an issue but I cannot confidently say it won't be one

[visual yarrow]

because you're going to be merging and splitting when starting with belts at max throughput

if you were only splitting, it would probably be fine

[limpid vapor]

i have three 1x5 balancers feeding into 5 lines that are all constructed identically though

[visual yarrow]

yeah, but prime array balancers fundamentally rely on loopbacks

[unique cypress]

but they're only on the top 3

[limpid vapor]

once the top 3 run out, the main 5 will keep feeding just the same

and the top 3 empty evenly, i can say that much

by the time the train gets here, the top 3 are empty, but functionally there should be no difference?

[visual yarrow]

before I continue: am I on the same page at all?

[limpid vapor]

i dont know, i have a baby brain

[unique cypress]

yeah, the top 3 will be equal, and the bottom 5 will be equal. but I cannot say whether all 8 will be equal

[visual yarrow]

so is there a specific reason why an ISC at each station isnt an option?

[limpid vapor]

honestly its mostly that if this works, i cant be bothered to rebuild it

there is a loopback for each of the top3

to make sure its an even split of 5

then i collect groups of 3 and merge them into the 5 main lines

then subdivide each of the main 5 into 3

so on paper each belt should carry like 8/3 split

[visual yarrow]

i'm feeling like this may be because of the fact that you have batch delivery

like.... keep an eye out for any belts that stutter

[limpid vapor]

there are small gaps of time where belts have nothing coming in, while offloading

[visual yarrow]

because if you see any belts doing that, that likely means a merger is not merging "correctly"

[limpid vapor]

but i dont think that matters

i am working with the assumption that if possible, a merger or splitter will attempt to equalize its ins/outs

[unique cypress]

when the wagons gets unloaded, all belts will start up at full speed.

[visual yarrow]

well, they work round robin

[unique cypress]

the top 3 are bottlenecked to 5/6ths due to the 1:5

and you split off 3/5ths of each one

so each group is 1/2 of a full belt

and you merge that with a full belt

so that half will be consumed fully, and the second belt will be bottlenecked to half

so your consumption from the platforms is 5/6ths x3 and 1/2 x5

[limpid vapor]

that explains why the top3 run out first

[visual yarrow]

if you merge half of a full belt with a full belt, it will alternate between each belt, and end up taking more from the "half" belt than it should

[limpid vapor]

the only thing that matters to the 5 main lines is whether they have enough to feed their subgroups, whether the top3 are involved or not, they do not care, i think

[unique cypress]

after the top 3 run out, the bottom 5 will start running at full speed

until they run out too

[limpid vapor]

which should be OK, because the train gets back here before they run out

[unique cypress]

which means the top 3 will be refilled, and then the bottom 5 are bottlenecked to half yet again

[limpid vapor]

and so the train will wait until it can offload

but by the time its done offloading, the source station has its platforms filled again

so on paper, should be all good?

[visual yarrow]

okay, let me try phrasing this one more way

[limpid vapor]

like the difference is just which station the train sits in, in my case it sits more time in the offloading station

if i understand correctly

[visual yarrow]

the cessation of cargo being transferred from the station when a train is docking will affect the ratios things are being split to, if those belts aren't otherwise completely freely flowing without stopping

[limpid vapor]

there are 2 ISCs for each end line, so there is some room for variation

[unique cypress]

because the 5 slower platforms can support the demand, I think it's fine

[visual yarrow]

oh wait this hasn't actualyl been turned on, yet?

ugh I am making so many typos today.

[limpid vapor]

it is, i am staring at it, trying to make sure it doesnt misbehave, and questioning my sanity

like will this keep working

[visual yarrow]

well I mean that's relatable

i don't trust my ionized fuel production to not randomly fail for little to no reason

[limpid vapor]

normally its very straightforward, but i have 17 trains here, i havent used trains to this scale yet

[visual yarrow]

i am as per usual building far more rail infrastructure than... trains. like this is a cargo routing section of my current project location

it makes about as much sense as it looks like it does

[limpid vapor]

it looks good

the majority of my architecture doesnt make sense so i wouldnt worry

[visual yarrow]

i quite literally have two trains right now, both of them taking like. tiny ass amounts of crude oil to two places

literally one of them is using three fluid wagons that feed three machines that consume 30/m each

[limpid vapor]

i had two prior to this

[visual yarrow]

because that was the simplest way to deal with the issue fluid cargo sometimes has with evenly splitting it

[limpid vapor]

i will probably continue to avoid transporting fluids if i can help it xd

1km long pipe snek go brr

[visual yarrow]

i wanted to do something different from "build plastic/rubber production on oil coast" this time

which in this case was "bring oil up to the rocky desert lake and use it there, and then eventually just start building in the spire coast"

see my problem is that I spend so much time on my railways and stuff, but my stations are never up to the standards I want, because I find it hard to make them look nice while also keeping them compact* while also keeping the tracks efficiently laid out

[limpid vapor]

yeah, it is hard, i get that

[visual yarrow]

mostly because that tends to require lots of small elevation changes, and I tend to prefer gradual slopes

and then I FINALLY made a nice station up here in the spire coast...

and then I... well, yeah.

i figured, there's roughly four pure oil nodes up here, plus a little extra. I can make four batches of plastic and rubber, and train them wherever.

[limpid vapor]

i just settle, every station i make looks like this, more or less

[visual yarrow]

and then I spent a week making the first setup and realized that bulk shipping plastic and rubber doesn't really work well when my strategy prefers using it "as needed" in smaller quantities around the place...

[limpid vapor]

why not?

[visual yarrow]

because I treat trains as essentially connecting belts across vast distances

and two near-full belts of plastic and rubber that I don't know what to do with aren't going to suddenly have a purpose if I train them somewhere else... not to mention, I still don't have a second station, hah

[limpid vapor]

they will find purpose eventually, i think my current plan is to make either 900... or 1800 of each

havent decided

[visual yarrow]

it's in perpetual WIP mode, too, which makes the obvious solution (massive drone port) not an easy option

because that tends to mean defining the final max height of the building

[limpid vapor]

aah, yeah

[visual yarrow]

the other side of it is that, simply put, I have a strong argument to be made to bring materials here instead of ship things out

but there's sort of a decision paralysis because despite having made four stations, I feel as if I need to carefully choose what each of them does, as changing it later is harder

FOR THE RECORD, I did make some drone ports. You can see them all the way up there.

I have no idea why I built them up there. They are nigh unusable.

[limpid vapor]

heh, we are truly playing a different game

[visual yarrow]

The one thing I have potentially planned for it is this segment of my HMF setup, because I have all four of those things in the area already

but that sort of hit a wall because I haven't figured out where the HMF setup will go.

but i've been getting tired and probably will end for the day in a minute here. I figured that I needed to contextualize my endgoals, so I started paving over and "reserving" the area I want to be producing the final project parts in, and kinda work backwards a bit?

[unique cypress]

bolted frame? ew

at least you had the decency not to use bolted plate too lol

[visual yarrow]

yknow, I thought the same, but I have 200/m steel beams being made quite literally right next to the elevator that leads up to those drone ports

i may have... gone a little overboard when I got tired of running out when doing aesthetics

[unique cypress]

eh, unlike bolted plate, bolted frame is not terrible. it's just meh

with steel screw, you're at least saving a bit of space compared to steeled

[visual yarrow]

my only real issue with bolted frame is that the ratio sucks

it doesn't have one of those nice ratios that matches steel screw so well

[unique cypress]

I have no clue what it is lol

not just because I never use it, but also because I never care about ratios

[visual yarrow]

well, it consumes 56 screws per cycle

for comparison's sake, the synergistic recipes are heavy flexible frame and copper rotor, which consume 104 screws and 52 screws per cycle

oh and steel screws produce in batches of 52

back when computers used screws, they also had a nice, matching ratio for steel screws

[unique cypress]

well, the per cycle amounts don't matter much unless the cycle times line up well

[visual yarrow]

the thing is, cycle times are actually pretty standardized

in the sense that if the production per cycle lines up, you can almost always adjust clockspeed to get stuff to match up

it's also why the recipes that are so awkward to get the clean ratios I like with are ones with odd production amounts, like caterium circuit boards

actually, the four circuit board recipes are a pretty good example of what I mean about cycle times being pretty standardized

and the actual quantities of items being what really matters

honestly, i'd love to use caterium circuit board for something. it used to be one of my favorites, specifically because caterium computers used to also consume 7 circuit boards, which led to those two recipes having extremely good synergy- I think the quickwire and rubber/plastic required was also almost evenly split beween them

but the only thing I can think of that might work while preserving the clean ratios I like is something along the lines of reaching 35/m circuit boards with 500% caterium circuit board assemblers, then using some for adaptive control units and some for the components needed for them?

oh, I could do one computer manufacturer + 150% crystal computer assembler = 200% caterium circuit board assemblers..

i need to stop doing math while tired. it never ends and never leads to anything productive.

[unique cypress]

Man, life is so much easier when you don't care about machine uptime

[visual yarrow]

perhaps. but less elegant

i do enjoy touhou, after all, so I suppose it's just the way I am

i am going to go pass out facefirst on my bed now

[cerulean stratus]

ok, just made a network of trucks

So like, I have a place making aluminum.
That aluminum then goes to the northern forest place by a tractor, where it's made into stuff with the copper there.

It's then transported in another tractor onto a mid point, where a tractor coming from the oil in the spiral coast goes all the way to the oil to the desert, and takes the aluminum along

After that, it goes into another tractor, going on a 3 way junction, into another tractor into the north of the desert

There, we have quartz for RCUs, and Nitrogen

[pulsar idol]

my brain....

[brisk smelt]

huh trains can derail now? lol

[charred gulch]

Quick question about smart splitters. I currently have one set up so that cable is output on the left, any undefined in the center output, and overflow to the right. Will this set up allow only cable overflow to go out the right output (given that the center output can never back up)

My goal is to have cable output on the left until that line is full and then output on the right, and anything else coming into the splitter go through the center.

[brisk smelt]

if the center never backs up how can anything go to the right?

[vapid gorge]

if cable backs up left

[vapid gorge]

seems reasonable yes

[brisk smelt]

ah didnt catch the middle logic

then yeah shld work

[heavy prawn]

I think they could always derail if you didn't attatch anything at the end of it and just let it run straight onto land

Prob useful if you just want the train to stop at a certain point rather than adding a loop

[brisk smelt]

no back in 0.6 or 0.7 or something it just stopped on dead end or a station

[crimson moat]

One thing that definitely works: use a smart splitter to take all cable off the belt, then another to sort that belt into left or overflow.

not certain how single smart splitter behaves in your scenario

[hoary oar]

doing it with 1 will work, as long as you can guarantee the center line never backs up
if it does it'll mess up the overflow line

[vapid gorge]

why would it mess it up? it'll jstu go to over flow

[indigo solstice]

Hey idk if this is a good place to ask, but maybe some one here also uses the Satisfactory Modeler tool on steam by chance and can help me?

Is there a way to limit specific connections to a maximum output? So e.g. I can route a maximum of 60 items/m from an output to a storage bin and use the rest for something else?

I want to have some of it left over for build use, but want most of it going into the factory for further processing

[thick plank]

Well, I dont know the specific planner (still do my plans by hand), but did you try just increasing your production output ao far untill your satisfied with the ammount of rods overflowing?

Id need to see the whole production line for that though

[indigo solstice]

Hm that plan is specific for a set amount of iron nodes I have at the location so I can't just increase it. To me it's just a priority issue, but maybe that planner doesn't even have that ability

[vapid gorge]

modeler is more of a layout designer than proper planner

[gloomy gyro]

Whats the point of the sushi belt thing if you just set everything to a perfect useage amount

[indigo solstice]

I'm not sure what the difference is? To me it's really just about setting a limit on one of the connections. It's not like I need splitters visible and stuff

[wind spade]

difference being that modeler is more for planning connections between groups of buildings, while other tools serve better as planners/calculators that can give you the whole factory

[indigo solstice]

well sure but thats just a question of scaling isnt it? i can just as well ask "how can i limit the output of this group of factories to that one to a certain amount" - same underlying question, just on a larger scale

[vapid gorge]

also you have to produce every square manually

this took 2 clicks https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=EMRplP9wX5wiDa8EUuBO

[indigo solstice]

i dont quite follow what that means? produce squares manually?

oooh you mean i have to manually setup the lines and boxes in the modeler

instead of it being generated like in tools

is tools not updated for 1.1? it still says 1.0 in the top right

[wind spade]

1.1 didn't introduce new recipes

[indigo solstice]

ah fair enough

[thick plank]

Not increase the ammount of iron ore input. Increase the ammounz of what is produced on the other end. From the snippit of what youve sent it looks like your iron is the only input, if thats so you can just increase your output, ahift some of the iron you use for rods to whatever else you need and viola, you no longer have an excess of rods

[indigo solstice]

oh you mean manually set the desired input on the constructors

didnt even think of that lol

[thick plank]

Output

[indigo solstice]

right yeah, sry

[thick plank]

You should increase the total output of the whole factory to consume more iron so you dont have overflow

What is it your actually producing?

Id guess Rotors

[indigo solstice]

its an "everything you can do from only iron" factory 😄 i dont have access to the pc right now to show it

so it just does everything + some output to bins to have building material

[thick plank]

Id just take those 90 rods and convert them to rotors

You can convert 55 rods /min to 4 rotors/min

Thrn youd have 35 rods remaining

[indigo solstice]

ah nice yeah

[thick plank]

(35.67)

[spare kernel]

Is it a good idea to Transport uranium via drones using default fuel across the Map? Im currently building my First nuclear power plant, to get the uranium in I have 4 nodes spread across the whole Map, each node is planned to get 1 drone port, powered by Default fuel which I fly in from byproducts from Other factorys.
Will this work or are they too slow with the normal fuel

[thick plank]

So I guess you mean transportation of the Uranium ore itself to a centralized production side? Id advise you to just use conveyor busses, I find them much easier to set up and more reliable, but thats not really a mainstream opinion

[spare kernel]

I also thought about a train Line, but the nodes are on unfriendly terrain for that. I also was thinking about a battery factory, because they arent that expensive to craft

Im Just worried that im gonna "Waste" alot of bauxite, which I may need in the endgame

[wind spade]

Eh, there's a lot of it

[thick plank]

In what way?

[spare kernel]

Like the bamboo forest or the high Mountain top

[thick plank]

How much do you value the look of your world?

Cause my Go to method is to build everything some 20-50 meters above the ground, that way I dont have to worry about how the ground is shaped

[unique cypress]

Skyrail doesn't care about terrain

[spare kernel]

Im not a very good builder, but I try my best to make it look good

[thick plank]

Ah then no skybus sadly

Then I understand your worries

Then maybe drones would be a good option, if you dont want to build any big thing somewhere

[spare kernel]

I already have an complete railway across the whole Map, the original plan was to branches where the train can leav the Main bus to collect the Materials and then join the main railway again. The plant also is along this Main line

But I barely used drones and Im currently on building an skyscraper where the drones can Land on

[plush glen]

Have you considered using tractors/trucks to bring the ore from the node to a train station?

[spare kernel]

Not yet, I never used trucks tbh, heard they are pretty unreliable? And they need fuel

[plush glen]

You can also automate explorers, if they'd handle the terrain better

[plush glen]

They're 100% reliable if you are more than 200 meters away, and 100% reliable closer than that if you set the path well

And they need fuel, but so do drones ¯\\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[spare kernel]

Yeah your right

[plush glen]

Welp I cannot figure out that sruggie lol

[spare kernel]

Yeah, thanks tho

[plush glen]

Of course!

I love trucks in my worlds. Very fun way to move things around

And ultimately that's what the goal is: optimize fun
And for me that involves trucks and trains and drones all working together to move something like 49 feet to the left because it's cooler that way lmao

[thick plank]

True, but I find all vehicles are more usefull for asthetics then for actual practicality

Nothing can beat the humble conveyor IMO

[plush glen]

Oh for sure. If you want practicality, nothing will ever beat a conveyor. 100% throughput, no fuel or energy cost, easy to build

[vapid gorge]

you can move anything with any drone and any fuel
you might just need a couple more drones if you use slower fuels

[thick plank]

I have 0 experience with drones, is it possible to run into range issues based off fuels or do drones complete their flight when out of fuel?

[plush glen]

They only take off if they have fuel to complete the flight

They never run out of fuel midair

[thick plank]

Ah, so I guess as long as a stack of fuel can carry them all the way to their destination thats fine

[plush glen]

And honestly, unless you're going from dune desert to grassy plains, half the time that the drone is in the air it's in the docking animation
Drones get better and better the farther they fly

[plush glen]

Absolutely

[thick plank]

Why cant we have hoverpack like drones that just fly along the powergrid

[plush glen]

I've run routes that literally took like 0.6 of a fuel before xD

[plush glen]

Oh that would be very nice

[thick plank]

Or even better, how about an automated zipline

[plush glen]

Now that would be the best way to move anything ever

I also know a Minecraft mod that does basically exactly that lol

But that's unrelated

[unique cypress]

Power tower cable cars

[spare kernel]

Maybe im paving the bamboo forest to a Walmart parking Lot xD

[vapid gorge]

nope, any fuel is viable for cross map travel

[cerulean stratus]

funny thing about bi directional tractor networks

You're getting stuff you shouldn't have some times and it's scary

[brisk smelt]

plutonium rods are like 0.001 lmao

and they are renewably burned too, 2 in 1

[mossy ibex]

reddit.com/u/eternalunity has some bangers lately. Maybe you should come out with a 2nd edition manual, @oblique hollow 🙂

[oblique hollow]

If its gonna be a new manual, it will be more of a troubleshooting guide

Rather than "this is how pipes work"

[wind spade]

Q: pipes broken
A: simplify pipes

[mossy ibex]

pipes should be simpler. In fact, it might be a good mod idea -- a pipe implementation that is how it "should" have been. I feel like QOL stuff becomes much more likely when there is a popular mod already to pave the way and prove its popularity

[dusky dust]

I haven't tested myself, but I think I've heard that Packaged Fuel isn't good enough for the "longest" drone routes -- would require more than a stack of fuel. But yeah, so long as the drone is willing to take off in the first place, it'll be good

[oblique hollow]

Trouble is pipes are hard to mod - even harder to make your own system or find someone who wants to / can make it

On that note, i am experimenting with a mod right now that allows you to tweak pipe values

And im currently experimenting with removing dynamic pressure

[mossy ibex]

oh amazing

[cerulean stratus]

I feel like I can just drown pipes and be done with 90% of the game

the issue is aluminum

[hoary oar]

im at the point of where i know what to do with pipes most of the time

but the thing that annoys me is that sometimes there's a tiny issue somewhere, and it'll only show itsself 100h down the line

[oblique hollow]

Ok so good news so far:

removing dynamic pressure seems to work and allows pipes to eventually reach the same fluid level

ive got 2 mk 2 pipes next to each other where they oscillated a bit but eventually settled on equal fill level

[oblique hollow]

wooow would you look at that, without dynamic pressure buffers can actually balance their fill level

[unique cypress]

does it break anything?

[oblique hollow]

so far onlz temporarily

wooow, one buffer emptied into another, both sloshed for like 3 cycles and then both settled on the exact same fill level

376.5 m³ / 2400 m³

like EXACTLY the same fill level

[unique cypress]

I wonder if the same thing would happen if you made the pressure half normal instead

[oblique hollow]

no

you cannot half pressure completely because pressure is converted to flow 1:1

if you did that you would cap all flow rates to 50%

even if the pipes state they could do more

[unique cypress]

I meant dynamic pressure only

[oblique hollow]

honestly no dynamic pressure feels better than any at all

the inertia is honestly a bit too realistic

[unique cypress]

does it break existing setups if you remove it?

[oblique hollow]

as i said, only temporarily i think.
im still testing it all

i gotta finetune the properties

one setup seems to have been negatively impacted so far

but i think i can find some fixes

hmm well i think i found something, but honestly this might just mean valves and pumps or mayve even buffers get more use

flow rates in output manifolds that split up are a bit more uneven

like, say you have a 20 machine manifold where you tap off from the middle and from one end (everything mk 2)

the middle gets more flow because pressure is more uniform there

its only a slight shift though

600 flow gets turned to around 400 and 200

but over time this can fix itself as the fluid overflows on one side

though, again, you can prevent this with some more clever valve usage or using pipe mks appropriately

actually, maybe the machines were at fault... hold on

aye, it was actually the machines!

funny how the pipes acting wrong was actually now a more proper indicator that the machines were at fault

[oblique hollow]

@mossy ibex i used that save you sent me to test this out: works good so far.
Ive used the "fixed" version however as i believe the other one wouldnt work either....
though honestly i should test how well "broken" pipe networks act without dynamic pressure

[unique cypress]

I'd be interested to know how my original save fares without dynamic pressure

[oblique hollow]

speaking of "your save" im gonna give that HOR manifold a go now

[unique cypress]

I swear, if no dynamic pressure fixes 600/min pipe issues I'm gonna

[oblique hollow]

honestly.... better than expected

the downside is that pipes might need to fill more now

because now static pressure has to compensate for everything

which means more full pipes and so more pressure groups, so overall stuff should stay fuller.... hopefully

ok yeah that mk 2 manifold at 600 thats center fed works perfectly fine

time to test the one that merges towards the end

[mossy ibex]

this is really cool in part because it give me more hope that CSS might just make the change. If it works out here it'll be a simple and proven fix

[oblique hollow]

you can bet im gonna make a QA post after this titled "remove dynamic pressure from pipes"

[unique cypress]

willing to make the mod available?

[mossy ibex]

btw, off topic, but the Factory Props guy pushed a fix today from a bug report I made, so now the water in that mod works right, which I'm very pleased about

[oblique hollow]

i gotta wait for a reply from SirDigby

he made the original pipetuner and i asked him to expand it with the other pipe properties

[mossy ibex]

Digby is a bro. We're working together right now on making a new icon pack for signs

I dunno where he finds the time, I feel like mods must be his full time thing

somehow

[silent shoal]

Will I have a problem transferring liquids this way?

[wind spade]

if you do a proper loop, you shouldn't

[oblique hollow]

should technically work.
if not, do the exact same from the other end of the line

[silent shoal]

Will it work this way?

[balmy sandal]

it's dumb but I made a cool little vertical merger and I'm proud of it. There's a splitter version on the other side. (BP is for 10 m. frames a minute

this particular bit is rods to screws

now to do 10 Heavy modular frames a minute

(not in a single bp)

[brisk urchin]

ma man!

one lift, 3 mergers....

yes mergers go into a lift even in the middle of it

[balmy sandal]

nah 5 lifts involved in that one lol I forgot you could do the merger in the middle

[brisk urchin]

1.1 goated for that fr

[balmy sandal]

now I wanna go fix it. hang on....

Much better

[brisk urchin]

nooooo 😭

even tho i never did it

imma show u how its clean and compact

[balmy sandal]

Cool! OH! I get it

[brisk urchin]

once you see it you cant go back to the old thinking

[frosty owl]

Tbh, I favor this version, as it allows to see the items going in/out of machines ^^

[balmy sandal]

Yeah it is a lot better for trouble shooting. though the other will save space when eventually I lose my mind and try to fit something like a supercomputer factory in a BP

[balmy sandal]

And this just gave me the idea for this. BEHOLD 100 steel pipes/min

[brisk urchin]

nice

okay....?

uhm

[balmy sandal]

forgot the pic first

[brisk urchin]

so i see alternate steel recepie

and just 1 foundry

oh its a blueprint

[balmy sandal]

Yeah!

[brisk urchin]

alr. alr

[balmy sandal]

quick bit of advice needed. should I go to the trouble of fitting my 50 Encased industrial beam process into the BP maker. or am I just going to use it for my heavy modular frame factory (10 a min) and never want it again

because by my maths i'm going to need 4 assemblers 8 smelters 4 foundries and 13 coonstructors

and that's a lot to compact into a BP

[mossy ibex]

I wouldn't. I think it's practical to do it in some sense, but I focus too much on aesthetics to make it worth it for me under those circumstances

[balmy sandal]

Cool. I think I will give myself one attempt. but if I get frustrated I'm putting a bandaid on it and calling it done

[unique cypress]

you basically don't need EIBs for anything other than HMFs, but you need HMFs for several things. so you could actually use this BP a few times.

[mossy ibex]

EIBs are mk4 belts, but yeah, I get what you mean

[balmy sandal]

Yeah I have enough run off of EIB from another factory for building so I only need them for HMF now

[unique cypress]

I mean EIBs are used for a ton of buildables and unlocks, but a single 50/min build can supply all of that

[mossy ibex]

yep

especially with a buffer

[unique cypress]

so i was talking about them being used in production lines

and that's basically only HMFs

cause who uses default uranium rods lol

[balmy sandal]

am I going to want to scale up from my 10/mini HMF? becase if that's the case I def want to BP this peice of the puzzle

[unique cypress]

for personal use? probably not

for other stuff? possibly

depends how big you want to go later in the game

[balmy sandal]

I'm mostly talking project assembly

I've never finished it. usually get burnt out around now

[unique cypress]

HMFs are used for FMFs, which are used for PCCs, which are used for pasta, which is used for SCs, which are used for ficsonium

that's a lot of shit you might want to make

and 10/min for all that is def not enough

as for project assembly, you can cheese your way to completion by handfeeding slooped machines

[balmy sandal]

okay definitely going to want to scale it up later then (sigh) okay I can do this one 50/min EIB BP coming up

(with is absolutely rediculous 150 steel beam requirement)

[unique cypress]

I, myself, only BP single steps

And i'd suggest using alts

default EIBs are expensive

[balmy sandal]

There is an alt EIB?

[unique cypress]

encased industrial pipe

[hoary oar]

if you want nuclear and automated space elevator parts you're looking at a minimum of 50 EIB, but most likely you're gonna have to make 100-150

[unique cypress]

allows you to skip coal/steel entirely, if you want (with another alt)

[balmy sandal]

and that other alt is...?

[unique cypress]

though that makes it take a lot of iron instead

[unique cypress]

iron pipe

[balmy sandal]

Well I'd much rather go hard drive hunting than work on this BP right now so that's what I'm gonna do!

[unique cypress]

I suggest you check out some calculator and see which recipes suit your situation best before comitting to making BPs

[thorn python]

Uhmmmm! Hi guys! It's my first time here so please don't be rude >w< but I don't why tf the merger is not merging items fast enough. Shouldn't the mk6 conveyor transfer 1200 items per minute? I am producing way more than 390 on both of the previous conveyors, why is the output only 780?

[rotund pasture]

390*2=780

[unique cypress]

looks like a mk5 belt somewhere

[rotund pasture]

you have to saturate the belt if you want the meter to read 1200

oh, sorry, i misread i think.

yeah, probably a mk5 belt

[unique cypress]

I mean 780 is a mk5 exactly

99% chance it's that

[rotund pasture]

unless each belt is carrying exactly 390, then what i said applies, you see 780 because there's only 780

[balmy sandal]

looks like it's also still calculating which might cause issues

[hoary oar]

yeah, probably a tiny belt somewhere, check near mergers/splitters that you directly placed on to the belt
if you placed those on to a mk5 belt and only later upgraded there might be a 0.01m bit of mk5 belt somewhere

[dire girder]

I love this game

[balmy sandal]

Big same

[thorn python]

This game man...

[rotund pasture]

You: 1
Factory: 0

[balmy sandal]

at least you found it

[thorn python]

Had me pulling my hair out

[hoary oar]

yeah if you ever have some kind of belt/pipe throughput issue
once you made sure you're not just simply overloading it, checking for lower tier sections should be the priority. happens quite a lot, specially if you prefer placing splitters/mergers after you put the belt down already

[vapid gorge]

Is it basically turning them to belts?

[deft lichen]

Factorio reworked their pipes to make them less realistic but more enjoyable gameplay wise and it worked

And I still think the same could be done here

The fluid simulation being ultra realistic doesn't seem to make pipes fun to deal with

Neither is it intuitive that some piping setups suck (like bottom feeding)

[oblique hollow]

still no

Its still hydrodynamic pressure at work

[deft lichen]

My approach to pipes and trains is always "you needn't understand the entire mechanic deeply as long as you stick to proven setups" but that doesn't really solve the core issue

[oblique hollow]

just no "flow rate goes faster if flow rate is fast"

[unique cypress]

Not to mention that it's barely realistic when all fluids are superfluids

[oblique hollow]

i basically just removed the kinematic term from pipes.
they still have pressure and they still have gravity and are still bidirectional

[deft lichen]

Well, whatever fluid simulation it is, it sure as hell seems unnecessarily complex

[oblique hollow]

but now, i can actually manifold 600/min.... with no flow rate drop

37 junction, in at the bottom, out at the top

not a single one of these pipes is wiggling around

sooo... tadah, i fixed mk 2 pipes

[unique cypress]

Took you what? 6 hours? 😆

[oblique hollow]

more like 6 years

correction: 5

[unique cypress]

I don't think there were pipes in this game 6 years ago 🤔

[oblique hollow]

5 years ago was update 3.5

which was when mk 2 pipes were added

i actually cant believe it, they actually are stable

now to try vertical manifolds

[unique cypress]

Still did it faster than the devs 🤣

I wonder if they have documentation why pipes were coded like this

[oblique hollow]

honestly i dont blame them if they actually decided to not touch it until given a reason
"it sorta works, lets keep testing stuff internally"

but who could have known that removing (or greatly reducing) dynamic pressure just straight up fixes mk 2

[sour bison]

was going to do a massive turbofuel plant for phase 3 and 4 so I don't have to worry about power for a while, any upgrades I could make to this?

i don't have the blender yet

[vapid gorge]

it looks like it's making them effectively mono directional though

[oblique hollow]

it isnt

it absolutely isnt

gross misunderstanding of what this means

[vapid gorge]

so what are the instances here that will cause back flow?

[oblique hollow]

pressure changes due to height changes

aka: some section is fuller than another

which happens when machine dump fluid in or use it

[lone igloo]

which is better to use for casings?

[sour bison]

just putting a buffer at the end of my pipes always removed the issue for me

[oblique hollow]

otherwise, pipes just propagate fluid from full to empty.
And that was always the case.

[vapid gorge]

if that's the case what is the removal of dynamic pressure actually doing?

[oblique hollow]

it curbs acceleration of flow rate due to flow rate.

basically, flow rate used to be affected by the square of flow rate

[vapid gorge]

if you need more casings and have spare copper? probably the second one. If not, the first. You've asked recipe questions like this before, there's no single correct answer

[oblique hollow]

ive simply cut out this acceleration term (or rather: greatly reduced it). the other ones remain pretty much unchanged

[lone igloo]

no there isn't but doesn't hurt to ask what people use mostly 🙂

[vapid gorge]

what and when they use those recipes will almost certainly be different to what and when you use yours to, so yes it does.

everyone could tell you one, when you're in a position to very willingly use 2 because you have ass tons of copper

look at what situation you might be in to evaluate a recipe

[oblique hollow]

this also reduced actual slosh.
that thing that happens between buffers and "lone" connected pipes

buffers now manage to find the common fluid level between each other

there is still some back and forth between them, but only for a short time

which is what you would expect

[sour bison]

is 100 turbo gens good for phase 3-4?

[lone igloo]

I used to use turbo fuel for longest time, diluted fuel is so much better. I'm now using it in my new 1.1PL. From same amount crude you only lose like 2GW of power but much easier setup doesnt need anything but Crude and water and closed loop.

[mossy ibex]

these numbers seem wrong? 1350 HOR should become more than 900 fuel

[mossy ibex]

in 3 I had 40@250%I think and it was plenty, going much bigger with rocket fuel for 4

I think the number might be 240 gens, but I can't rememeber the plan right now

[sour bison]

looking for something simple to push me to three & make my main base, still operating out of my temporary

[mossy ibex]

well 100 is cool for the phase you're at, but I'd make it actually 40 fully OCed. If you can't spare the shards do 100 though

[sour bison]

doing my plant in crater lake so space isn't an issue

[unique cypress]

Diluted packaged fuel and skip turbofuel entirely. Unless you have a location that has all resources available relatively nearby

[sour bison]

crater lake

[mossy ibex]

yeah I did my turbo fuel in crater lake too

and set it up to be ready for rocket when I hit that tier

which I'm sort of at now, but working on side projects atm

[unique cypress]

If you're planning on upgrading it to rocket, I'd stick with regular fuel. It's easier to upgrade to rocket than turbo

[sour bison]

im just going to do nuclear

[crimson plover]

alclad is usually better

[crimson plover]

my friend you don't just go and do nuclear

[unique cypress]

Eh, debatable. It reduces aluminium usage from 1.5 to 1.333, but adds quite a bit of copper.

[crimson plover]

i usually have excess copper

[crimson plover]

it take hours of planning and weeks of building and testing and then even if your 100% sure you got everything right something goes wrong and the plant shuts down 5 minutes later

[sour bison]

rule of cool

[unique cypress]

Hmm is it still cool if it's both time and resource and space inefficient

[crimson plover]

does not apply

[sour bison]

yes

[crimson plover]

rule of cooling nuclear power causes massive problems

[sour bison]

it looks nice so I do not care

[crimson plover]

oh your power grid gonna be in pain

[jolly sphinx]

New here to satisfactory, and I had the idea to do a challenge run for my first playthrough

The idea is to use as little as quality of life as possible

T1 Conveyors, T1 miners, no conveyor lifts, no mergers, no storage boxes, no alternate recipes, no optional research, no trains, no drones,

I don't know what else to get rid of yet

any idea how long this would take?

[hoary oar]

as a first playthrough?

[balmy sandal]

typically WITH belt upgrades and things you are looking at a solid 60 to 100 hours if you rush.

and that's if you don't spend any time on aesthetics or efficiency

[jolly sphinx]

Yes

[jolly sphinx]

I have time and it seemed like a good idea

[balmy sandal]

the game is pretty challenging on a first playthrough just vanilla (especially if you leave the creatures on aggressive) but you do you. if you aren't using the belt upgrades and stuff you are going to want to hand feed most of your machines

you will at least double the playtime I think. If you are JUST trying to complete the game

me: i haven't beaten the game yet. I wonder how many hours I put into it?
checks
1411 hours. huh I should really finish a run at some point

[hoary oar]

i feel like its more just gonna be annoying than a challenge, but eh.. up to you.
you're probably gonna have to spread out quite a lot and bring everything to a central location if you don't want splitters or mergers

[balmy sandal]

side note. do I want to automate stators to my personal storage for building? Is that even worth the train car?

[hoary oar]

stators arent used for building anymore, so technically there's no need to have them in the depot

same for circuit boards btw

[balmy sandal]

cool Scraping them immediately ..... wait. do I need them for a project assembly part? cause the train does that too

[hoary oar]

yes, you definitely still need them in a lot of production chains, but they are just an intermediary step now

[charred prairie]

as someone on their 1st run, 70hrs in on tier 5, yea i can tell i still got a good 50 hours before im done at least

[balmy sandal]

Dang automated wiring needs it. ah well to the train it goes

[hoary oar]

modular engines and everything that comes from it uses them
automated wiring and everything after
alt for electromagnetic control rods, aka nuclear

[balmy sandal]

ah well I'm halfway to it anyway might as well finish it

[charred prairie]

im cooking up an assembler building rn :P

blueprints have been a lifesaver though, esp for getting all the conveyor placements right

[vapid gorge]

You’ve got enough to learn about things without crippling yourself

Mergers and splitters aren’t really a qol thing

[unique cypress]

If higher tier conveyors are QOL than so are T1 conveyors

Handcarry everything

Hell, handcraft everything

[mossy ibex]

most of these are not QOL things, they are basically necessary to make a functioning factory. I guess you could limp through, but

[pulsar idol]

is recycling the nuclear waste good?

like uranium waste turn into pluotuim waste and then facisum fuel rods to sink

[jolly sphinx]

my definition of QOL is if it's possible to complete the game without it and it normally speeds up the game

I might have to unban mergers if it gets bad enough

[mossy ibex]

in that case Ky is right. Handcraft literally everything

there are only a few exceptions where you'll need buildings

you don't even need to use belts ever

it'll be a terrible game that takes forever

but it's possible

don't even need miners, just hand mine everything

[vapid gorge]

If you want? You don’t need to

I think most probably make plutonium rods then sink them

[sour bison]

just make the next tier of rods/cells and sink them

[unique cypress]

Converting uranium waste to Plutonium Rods is generally good. You can sink the Pu Rods to get rid of the waste entirely, or burn them to get even more power.

They generate a lot less waste than Uranium Rods, so it's not difficult to store it, if you don't mind doing that.

However, converting the plutonium waste to Ficsonium to get rid of it is generally a waste of time and resources, as sinking the plutonium rods in the first place is both easier and cheaper than burning them and then making Ficsonium

[sour bison]

isn't it better just to sink the plutonium cells instead of the rods?

[hoary oar]

you cant

can only sink the fuel rods

[sour bison]

oh, damn

thought you could sink the cells

[unique cypress]

Out of all radioactive items, you can only sink uranium, uranium cells, uranium rods and plutonium rods

[balmy sandal]

next time I start a fresh run I'm going to put all my train stations on an isolated power grid so I can see how much my max consumtion is without them. the reserve SOO MUCH POWER

[brisk smelt]

fisconium is incredibly expensive

you almost never need it, U+PU gives 1.5GW~ without sloops alone

or just burn the plutonium rods in drones

you probably will make more than a drone could ever burn in its lifetime

but you will have radioactive craters around the world.... 4096:1 load balancer is hard to make lol if u dont want

[hoary oar]

its a nice feeling tho, to fully deal with nuclear waste
sinking plutonium rods just feels wrong imo

[brisk smelt]

or you can drive trucks around to burn them lmao

[hoary oar]

yeah, but then you also have truck stations and drone ports with radioactive zones around them

funny, but might get annoying

[crimson moat]

you can also use the SAM to convert stuff to uranium, rather than make ficsonium. It's less complex, requires less tech and produces more power (with or without waste)

[brisk smelt]

oh right that.... too

sam conversions just feel so wrong to me, like cheating haha

[crimson moat]

There's "only" 2100 uranium on the map so with the converter route you can increase that several times over

[brisk smelt]

2100 uranium is quite a lot tbh.. already

especially with slooping the rod constructors

you can do the 2 input route and it's fairly cheap in terms of both energy and sloops

[grizzled ridge]

240 turbofuel into 16 generators oced @ 200%
the fuel is barely making it to the last two generators, anybody know why? if i need to provide mroe info lmk

[brisk smelt]

are the pipes completely filled

sloop the blenders for a bit till you overflow

then remove them

[grizzled ridge]

word

yea the pipes at the end arent filled

actualyl just double checked they are all not filled

could this be the issue since it's moving upwards? i assumed that small vertical change would be negligible

[crimson moat]

that looks like a mk.1 pipe? You got mk.2?

[grizzled ridge]

i have everything to unlock mk2 but wouldnt mk1 be fine since it's under 300 flow rate?

[crimson moat]

No because most pipe systems with junctions have individual units of fluid often flowing multiple times, which counts against the limit each time

make it at a constant elevation and use mk.1 only on the pipes going to the generators

mk.2 everywhere would have worked, but mk.2 on the main line with mk.1 on the forks taking smaller amounts of fluids will work better (as in, it will operate smoothly with sufficient flow with an input which is closer to the flow rate cap)

[grizzled ridge]

mmm i see

[mossy ibex]

I thought the output on the industrial storage favored the input, like bottom tries to go to bottom first? What's the real rule? Does the output favor belts over lifts?

[crimson moat]

no, it's inconsistent

the real rule is don't use 2 outputs from an ISC, and if you do, balance them

[vapid gorge]

Possible without seeing the rest. May as well clean it up

[fallow siren]

the top output from isc only used when theres 2 stacks or more and then it keep using both output until its empty

but like aeryn said, dont rely on both outputs from isc

unless youre using it as train buffer

[dusky bronze]

@crimson moat so can you get 600 uranium anywhere on the map with any fuel with only 2 drones, or is it dependent on fuel?

[crimson moat]

2 droneports, 4 drones

Ports A at ore
Ports B at destination

set A1 to B1
set A2 to B2
set B1 to A1
set B2 to A2

build a drone at all of these

[dusky bronze]

ok, ty

[crimson moat]

it depends on fuel and distance yeah, but with good fuel and mid distance you could do 600 ore with 1 ore port i believe

[dusky bronze]

im considering just leaving it until i can get plutonium going

power plant doesnt need to run at full efficiency for now

[crimson moat]

it's not that much better, fine to just overbuild it and have margin

if there is doubt

that's easier than measuring the throughput properly etc

[dusky bronze]

true

im probably gonna end up with 2 more drone ports anyways

[visual yarrow]

there's a few other niche cases where using both outputs of an ISC is useful. I find that as long as you can guarantee that the buffer always has enough supply to constantly output at the max throughput of both output ports, there shouldn't be issues. of course, this makes most of those niche cases ones where you want to output at lower than your max belt speed for whatever reason

[brisk smelt]

you should be using double input from isc to train station to double output shouldn't u? or that defeats the point of two inputs...

otherwise ur js limited to 1200per car

[visual yarrow]

that is technically one of those niche cases

the delay of train docking means you build up a backlog in the buffer. in order to "catch up", it uses both ports, which, until it's "caught up", they can output at the aformentioned max throughput of both ports

[brisk smelt]

yeah fair

[visual yarrow]

the issues show up when the ISC has to choose a port to output to because it doesn't have enough supply or existing inventory to saturate both outputs. unlike splitters, ISCs will... well, they're just kind of arbitrary about which port they'll prefer, essentially

this is another one of those niche cases. useful for high-demand materials.

[brisk smelt]

in a closed system with finite demand it doesn't really matter cuz the bottom output just clogs and balances with the top

[crimson moat]

just if you expect it to clog and balance, and it doesn't clog, problems

whereas if you mix half of top with half of bottom twice, they'll always deliver the same amount

[frosty owl]

Perfect match between input and output can have some perks
#screenshots message

[gloomy gyro]

Ohh

There should be hardcore mode with only 1 input and output

[rotund pasture]

Very interesting challenge!

[frosty owl]

Tbf, you can easily "just do it" yourself ^^
Eg: https://youtu.be/aJiy-pOX7Os

[tired dagger]

I have MK5 Conveyors. Is there a way to take 1200ores? Or do i need Conveyor MK6.?

[wind spade]

with mk5 you're capped at 780

[wind spade]

also don't post in multiple channels please

[tired dagger]

Sorry about posting in multiple channel didnt knew where to post

[young agate]

Im trying to make a plan for a turbofuel factory yet satisfactory tools isnt working. anyone have a working turbo fuel calculation that i can edit?

[wind spade]

SFTools can do turbofuel

have you enabled alt recipes you need for it?

[young agate]

Yes,

[wind spade]

so both compacted coal and any of the turbofuel alts?

[visual yarrow]

don't forget that turbofuel itself is an alt recipe

[young agate]

it is-?

[wind spade]

yeah, needs a HDD

[visual yarrow]

yep.

[young agate]

Thank you :D

[visual yarrow]

it used to be found via hard drives and the random system, but they were changed to be researchable in the MAM, at the cost of a hard drive

@wind spade oh, hey, since you're here and it's on my mind- any chance you'd be willing to add a quick enable/disable toggle button in the recipes tab specifically for material conversion recipes? I find that SFTools recommends them very frequently, but just disabling SAM or the converter doesn't work if you happen to be using them for the production chain already

[wind spade]

"simple" solution is to have a base tab where they are disabled and clone that for each new tab

(you can search the recipes by searching for ( easily)

[visual yarrow]

oh, that's a good idea, thanks. I get the impression it's one of those "more hassle than it's worth" things?

[wind spade]

current tools are no longer being developed though, so I doubt there will be changes like this. For new tools I'm making, I have this on my mind and will probably have some solution

[visual yarrow]

alrighty. i'll definitely try that parenthesis trick next time. thanks for your time!

[frigid maple]

my fully unautomated modular frame factory 😍

[visual yarrow]

well you posted this at an amusing time

so in the process of making my scaled down not-overkill modular frame factory, I kind of just... went overboard and I guess i'm going to be doing the full 45/m HMFs

[frigid maple]

i know ill need to make a monsterous automatic modular frame factory at some point.. BUT THAT POINT ISNT NOW

short term solutions for long term problems 😎

[visual yarrow]

i think i'm going to use a train to grab steel pipe and concrete, which will be made at separate locations- i'll have the train circling around a looped portion of my rail network visiting three stops, so that way I can just make directional stations on the side without needing to worry about access from both directions

that will solve the main issue I was otherwise having: obsessive compulsive rail aesthetics. or at least help diminish it

[frigid maple]

OCRA is crazy

people dont understand OCD 😔 🖤 🥀 :emo:
im diagnosed and yet non-spaghetti factories are a last resort option

[visual yarrow]

i don't actually have OCD, but I do have some compulsive tendencies, I guess

[frigid maple]

yea ik its funny

i think "satisfactory player" is just a mental disorder at itself

[rotund pasture]

my friend and i call it "autism simulator" for a reason

[visual yarrow]

not entirely inaccurate

it does tend to have those aspects that appeal to those of us on the spectrum

[frigid maple]

hmm theres trains and optimization.. yea seems autistic to me-

[visual yarrow]

i am also 100% procrastinating on deciding where to put the HMF factory itself right now.

[frigid maple]

im just waiting for my fully unautomated MF factory to finish making 200 frames

[rotund pasture]

north forest has two good spots, where there are some pure limestone and iron nodes

[visual yarrow]

in this case, i'm more considering the space relative to my existing infrastructure

[rotund pasture]

ohhh, i can't help much then

[visual yarrow]

basically, i'm currently planning on circling around that loop around the rocky desert. limestone aplenty in the upper left, and those coal nodes on the east will suffice along with the iron and copper that's there

[rotund pasture]

there's tons of limestone like you said, and a few pure irons in that middle-north region

[visual yarrow]

i'm thinking right here would be a good spot, but i'm not sure if it's spacious enough

[frigid maple]

are doggos useful or are there just for the cute factor?

[visual yarrow]

they can bring useful components.

[rotund pasture]

if you tame them, about every 5-7 minutes they will randomly find an item, in a preset quantity, from a preset list.

this can include slugs of every color, high level parts, NUKES.

[frigid maple]

like minecraft cats

[visual yarrow]

it's very useful early on. less so as you progress.

[rotund pasture]

i haven't played minecraft in about 15 years so...

maybe 10

[visual yarrow]

but personally I like doing this with doggos

[frigid maple]

HOW DARE YOU

ban him.

[visual yarrow]

IT KNOWS WHAT IT DID

[rotund pasture]

i made a nice pen in my last playthrough

[visual yarrow]

actually that doggo jail is right next to the planned HMF... place, as a fun fact.

[rotund pasture]

mods involved in that pen

[frigid maple]

whats worse? using doggos for nuclear warfare or making a coal factory the size of your mom

[rotund pasture]

why not both?

[visual yarrow]

making a coal factory of any size is worse, given that neither recipe that makes coal is automatable

wait

[rotund pasture]

or....

[visual yarrow]

no, I retract that. I forgot about converters

[frigid maple]

i wanna download mods but its not a priority so i just dont do it
... im saying that like i do priority stuff

[rotund pasture]

or just mine it?

OH a factory that makes coal, with those two recipes i learned dead last.

[frigid maple]

i meant coal gen factory
yk the one that heats up the atmosphere

[visual yarrow]

incidentally, what I describe as "doggo jails" are actually specifically for wild doggos. I identify and isolate their spawn points when i'm clearing terrain so that I don't accidentally blow them up

and then sometimes I incorporate them into a factory and let them just kinda wander around it. I find wild doggos cuter than tame ones, for some reason.

like this little guy who lived in the underbelly of a completely different save's overbuilt HMF factory.

or.. wait, maybe this was making HSCs? eh. it was making something

[frigid maple]

okok guys do i use a hard drive to research compacted coal?

or alt recipe

[rotund pasture]

MAM

I don't think it needs a HDD

[frigid maple]

theyre both in the mam wdym

[rotund pasture]

but turbofuel does, as does rocket fuel.

wait, i might be wrong

[frigid maple]

like im super close to packaged fuel
is compacted coal worth something?

[rotund pasture]

because ionized and rocket need HDDs, but turbo might not...

compacted coal is almost only used for turbofuel

[wind spade]

do you want compacted coal? or do you want a random alt recipe?

and for coal gens

[rotund pasture]

why i said almost. by the time you're making compacted coal, you have fuel gens

[wind spade]

and for steel and for black powder

by the time you're making compacted coal, you have fuel gens
why? you can get compacted in T3

[frigid maple]

i dont understand yes or no is compacted coal usefull at oil fuel gens

[rotund pasture]

oh, i think you're right and i'm wrong.

you use compacted coal to convert fuel into turbofuel

[wind spade]

it's useful if you like it

like with pretty much everything else, game gives you options and it's up to you which ones you use

compacted coal generally converts sulfur to more coal

[frigid maple]

i know theres more HDDs in the world than ill need but im still conflicted

[wind spade]

roll a dice then

[frigid maple]

ill just do alt recipes i think

[rotund pasture]

you can skip turbofuel and go to rocket fuel if you get the right alt recipes

[wind spade]

you can skip turbofuel and go to nuclear 🤷

[frigid maple]

you can skip nuclear and go to biomass 🔥 🔥 🔥

[rotund pasture]

i think you have to unlock turbo to get rocket to get the alt recipes though, so... yeah, just figure out your priorities.

[frigid maple]

what do i do while HDD is researching?

[rotund pasture]

find more HDDs

[frigid maple]

damn i just thought about it
6 hard drives take an hour to research

[rotund pasture]

until you miss one and then forget

[unique cypress]

The research time is basically irrelevant

[frigid maple]

while HDD is researching ill take my OCD medication ^w^

[unique cypress]

Go do literally anything, and whenever the notification appears, build a MAM, pop in the next hard drive, and dismantle the MAM

[frigid maple]

its funny im taking OCD meds while playing satisfactory

stops playing

alright gang what are we choosing @unique cypress @rotund pasture @wind spade

[unique cypress]

I would take the frames, but you don't need to take anything if you don't want it

[rotund pasture]

do you make a lot of steel? solid steel is more efficient than regular recipe

you can rescan, i would consider it

[frigid maple]

i wanna make a lot of steel

[rotund pasture]

it's like... double the steel ingots?

[unique cypress]

1.5x

[frigid maple]

prb make a proper steel factory soon
so ill take the solid steel

[rotund pasture]

i was gonna check, so thanks for correcting me. saved me the time.

[frigid maple]

EFFICIENCY IS EFFICIENCY

[frigid maple]

it literally says in the image "3 steel ingots"

[rotund pasture]

just need smelters in addition to foundries

yeah, but craft time also matters

[frigid maple]

ok i took steel

[rotund pasture]

regular steel ingot recipe makes 3 at a time too

[frigid maple]

btw how do i get the phase 2 parts? theyre not in assamblers

[unique cypress]

Remember that the drives stay scanned in the library. You can not take either recipe, and neither of them will appear in future scans. And later, if you want one of the recipes, you can just take it

So generally, unless you know you'll use both recipes, it's best not to take anything for as long as possible

A drive in the library removes 2 recipes from future scans, a taken drive only one

By leaving drives in the library, you get to see more recipes with fewer drives

[unique cypress]

Yeah, but it takes 3 coal and 3 ore to do that. Solid takes 2 coal and 2 ingots

And 2 ingots is only 1.1 ore with pure iron

[rotund pasture]

ah, i misremembered the recipe, thought it was 3 coal and 3 ingots, but less craft time

[wind spade]

What you want/like/prefer

[rotund pasture]

did you unlock all the milestones?

[frigid maple]

do water towers work for oil too?

oil towers?

[unique cypress]

They work the same for all liquids

But so do pumps so I consider water towers more of a decoration than anything

[frigid maple]

what do valves do

[unique cypress]

Generally? Nothing useful

[frigid maple]

so do i ignore them

[rotund pasture]

for now

[unique cypress]

I haven't placed a single one in years outside of testing

[frigid maple]

ok

is this peak factory building?

[frigid maple]

I FINALLY MADE PACKAGED FUEL

[oblique hollow]

Needs a pump or 2

[frigid maple]

i waited so long for this

[frigid maple]

yea i gave it ofc

it needed 3 pumps

[fossil pilot]

Now do packed turbo fuel

[frigid maple]

no now im doing oil power since coal isnt all powerful anymore

[fossil pilot]

But turbo fuel can still be used in fuel generators and burns slower

[frigid maple]

but i need 2 HDDs for turbo fuel and im not going HDD hunting rn

so later

[unique cypress]

Eh, turbo is pretty meh. More oil efficient and that's it. If you have oil available, it's often easier to just stick with fuel until rocket fuel or nuclear

I've recently made turbofuel for the first time in years and it was for turbo diamonds lol

[balmy sandal]

I am tearing my hair our over this. I have this fuel power plant I like to refer to as the oil rig. I build one near my base to begin with. it's great . it works. I love it.
I happen to have the same amount of oil in another spot on the map near where I'm building my electronics factory. which is great because it produces plastic and I need plastic.

oops hit enter too soon

Anyway it also was producing rubber and I was like OH that's cool I'll just switch those to plastic! but plastic produces half the HOR that rubber does with the same amount of oil. now I'm struggling to balance the last fuel generator with 40 les HOR than I had before.
I don't want to use any alts because I'd have to change a whole bunch of stuff.
should I just package and sink the extra?

OMG I just fixed it!

THe HOR previously making fuel can make turbo fuel instead (Turbo heavuy fuel alt) and I can give that to the last one or two generators and thats it solved

[frigid maple]

wow 1 oil gen is better than 3 coal gens

im gonna have unlimited power

right?

right?

[cerulean stratus]

Depends on the amount of oil gens

I made some calcs and by the end I'll need to make... 400 fuel gens

[frigid maple]

im making my first railway!

[frigid maple]

imagine planning ahead

[balmy sandal]

Uh huh! side eyes my power grid as I make 17 more fuel generators

[balmy sandal]

Awesome! If you want a great tutorial then look at toaster gaming on youtube he has a 3 part tutorial that covers everything from laying clean tracks to how to signals.

helped me out a ton!

[cerulean stratus]

Yeah I know it's easier to make 20 heavy modular frames at the start

[frigid maple]

how hard could it be?
a station here a station there rails rails rails BOOM!

um how do i put the rails mid-air

[balmy sandal]

I have found it easiest to blueprint a segment of rail then you can nudge it to midair

[frigid maple]

i just put some foundations

i already made a foundation bridge from before i made hypertube cannons

[frigid maple]

how do i call my train station

[wind spade]

train station

[balmy sandal]

If you mean re-name then you can do it from the train station interface just double click the name IIRC

[frigid maple]

fucking peak

[unique cypress]

I suggest settling on some standard naming scheme

[frigid maple]

im surprised i had enough materials for the rails

[frigid maple]

train station (material)

[balmy sandal]

Personally all my satalite factries have a theme and a name to match the theme so I name the train station after the factory and the train that primarily delivers or picks up from there after the theme

[unique cypress]

I usually do [name/location of factory] - [material] - [load/unload]

[balmy sandal]

So my Computer component factory is called the Artificers lab and the train that goes there is called train 2 electronic boogaloo

but I'm a weirdo

[frigid maple]

my cable and wire factory is too good
i added 3 buffers and its filling up

[frigid maple]

wdym location? like biome?

[balmy sandal]

Time to add an awesome sink

[frigid maple]

oh yea i forgot that exist lemme just hook it up

[balmy sandal]

Ahhhh that is a pretty manifold. hope it works.

[frigid maple]

now its a rollercoaster

[balmy sandal]

Weeeee!

[frigid maple]

there should be an option to make loops

quick someone make a mod

[unique cypress]

Renai transportation satisfactory port when

[frigid maple]

@unique cypress is this a good name

the other station is going to be called "LOAD Plastic/Rubber"

[unique cypress]

If that name is enough for you to know where that station is and what it's doing, it's a good name

[frigid maple]

oh
nice

[balmy sandal]

do I need/ want to manifold my pipes if I'm going from 4 refiners to 1 refiner. or just merg them and run the pipe to input of the last refiner

[frigid maple]

i added another floor to the storage container field

[frigid maple]

idk do the meth

[visual yarrow]

why did I get a notification for this channel

[balmy sandal]

Math it good I just worried about the flow. I'm bad a liquids

[visual yarrow]

okay I have no clue but it was worth it just to see this comment. yes please

[visual yarrow]

not quite a loop, but perhaps this may interest you

[visual yarrow]

what exactly do you mean? you essentially have four outputs going into one input, so all four pipes will merge

[unique cypress]

Merge all 4 outputs into one pipe in a somewhat sensible fashion and then plug it in

[balmy sandal]

Cool thank you!

[unique cypress]

As long as you don't do completely random shit like loops, unnecessary bends or spaghetti, pipes generally just work

Unless you're trying to get max flow through one, then it can get a bit more technical

[visual yarrow]

here's one example

[balmy sandal]

I wanted to know if I needed to loop the pipe back on itself in anyway to make sure it made all the liquid made it to it's final destination

This is what I've done. Arrows indicate desired flow direction

[visual yarrow]

but you could also do something like this

[frosty owl]

Someone @ you in a message and deleted it
||It was me!||

[visual yarrow]

that will be fine as long as the numbers are accurate.

for a simple system like that, you don't really need to worry about flow rate much, if at all

flow direction, pardon me

[balmy sandal]

Cool. The numbers are exact so it should be fine

[visual yarrow]

the point where you would theoretically start to experience issues is when you start approaching the max throughput of a single pipe.

[balmy sandal]

Ah see I have issues as soon as I'm going from one source to many rather than from many to one. for instance from the oil extractor to the refiners. or from the refiners to the fuel gens. but my solution for those seems to be working

[visual yarrow]

the way that I tend to think of pipe systems is almost like... a single, massive fluid storage.

[frigid maple]

@balmy sandal whats that train tutorial again idk how to use the trains 😔

[balmy sandal]

Toaster gaming on youtube. I don't think I can link in this chat

[oblique hollow]

Its a giant multi-segmented river with kinetic energy

[frigid maple]

its ok ill look it up

[visual yarrow]

this is perhaps getting a bit tangential, but they're like... big klein bottles. stuff flows to the bottommost segments first.

[balmy sandal]

Makes sense.

[visual yarrow]

but my number one rule for pipes is that they are all haunted by poltergeists and I should expect them to occasionally do completely nonsensical things for seemingly no reason

honestly, pipes are one of those things that you kind of just have to get a "feel" for, and are particularly hard to explain (but im speaking as someone who is bad at explaining things in the first place)

but yeah. rule 1 of pipes is "is it actually connected to the other pipe?". rule 2 is listen to McGalleon. rule 3 changes depending on the mood of the day

and rule 0 is that if you ever think you finally completely understand pipes or even just an aspect of pipes in a coherent, sensible way, it will immediately stop working the way you thought it worked like.

[balmy sandal]

True dat

Luckily I don't understand it at all. My solution to problems after checking everything is hooked up and the machines are on is to ad more manifold loops close to where the problem is. and if that doesn't work I add a pump

[visual yarrow]

i personally find that adding pumps seems to solve a lot of problems that it logically shouldn't

[balmy sandal]

IKR!?!

[visual yarrow]

but I mean, I used to have issues like you describe, with getting oil from the extractor to a set of refineries without it just... not flowing enough, for some reason

i don't actually know what I started doing differently, but I stopped having those problems at some point

[balmy sandal]

The bane of my existence is pipeline floor holes

[visual yarrow]

well, let me rephrase. I know what I do differently, but I don't know what thing or thing(s) actually had an impact

i'd say the most likely to matter thing is that I stopped trying to fully utilize pipe capacity. I don't overclock pure oil nodes to 250%, I go for... 225%?, for 540/m

[unique cypress]

600/min is totally doable with oil and water

with other fluids, it's harder but still possible

[visual yarrow]

i've just had too much frustration trying to get things using 600/m to work that I decided i'd rather just not deal with the hassle

it helps that 540/m matches my HOR/diluted fuel setup very well, ratio-wise.

I don't overclock nuclear to 250% either, I go for 200%. But that's also because I can fit four water extractors under a nuclear plant in a nice-looking way.

oh yeah I even had an image of this one

[frigid maple]

train is working!

tutorial didnt help i figured it out on my own 😎

[balmy sandal]

Well Done!

[frigid maple]

yea and now instead of making a 5000 kilometer conveyor
the train moves it

why doesnt it deal damage

[oblique hollow]

If you know the deeper machinations it does make sense

The pipes have actual pressure and pumps provide pressure

Pressure affects flow

Head lift is seperate from that in a way

[oblique hollow]

they just dont

[visual yarrow]

See, I suggested as such a while back, and people didn't... agree. And also said some mean things.

[oblique hollow]

The thing is people expect more pressure is always more flow

it isnt because theres a flow rate cap

the pressure can rise ridiculously high due to gravity but the flow rate is always cappes at 600 or 300

[visual yarrow]

What I observe(d) was issues with very long pipelines that were entirely horizontal. They'd just not reach the full throughput unless I put pumps periodically along the length, factorio-style. And the thing that convinced me was the fact that nitrogen gas didn't display this quirk.

[oblique hollow]

Well for long pipes it has more to do with time

It takes time for them to fill

I had a 2km mk 2 pipe that ran at max flow with no added pumps besides one at the beginning

[visual yarrow]

Yeah, but i'm talking about, say, an oil extractor that starts backing up because it's contents just aren't flowing to the consumers.

[oblique hollow]

That seems more like a conditional thing. Would need to see it.
were some pipe segments staying empty along the way?

Or eas everything full but just not flowing

Because that can mean that the end point where the fluid goes had trouble with slosh caused by dynamic pressure

[visual yarrow]

It was... I believe, full, since I let it saturate before I turned the refineries on, but it didn't stay full, and the flow rate was.... it was sort of like what happens when you have a limited valve and non-full pipes.

[oblique hollow]

Flow interruptions always happen at the first junction that splits flow

[visual yarrow]

I did a lot of testing- unlimited valves, to see if it was directionality. The only thing that worked, and it worked perfectly, was periodic powered pumps.

[oblique hollow]

If the pipes were full up until therey it was the junction

[visual yarrow]

This was also not using the full throughput capacity of the pipe, for the record.

[oblique hollow]

Then its kind of normal for it to empty out unfortunately. The pipes tend to fill, ramp up to max speed and then empty out

If you still have that save you can DM it to me and i can add it to my collection of saves to test

I'll rip out every pump and see what happens

If everything was entirely level, its odd

But i guess there was at least some verticality at some point