math-and-meta

[dusky dust]

If your train car is really close to its throughput limit, then maybe you'd need/want to keep the round-trip time as short as possible, though honestly if I was that close, I'd probably add a second car anyway, just to account for unexpected congestion later

Yep. Just means that the block will only ever have a single train in it, even if more than one train could theoretically be in there

[rain lichen]

so the alternative solution is a million block signals then, got it 🙂

[outer vale]

if you're not mindful path signals can actually slow down your trains too

[dusky dust]

I mean, you still need a million (or, rather, a bunch) of block signals regardless. If you use signals anywhere in your network, you need to use them everywhere

And the majority of your signals will be block signals, whether you're using path signals for intersections or not

(By "everywhere" I mean like every 200-300m or so on straightaways, etc)

(You could leave straightaways as one gigantic block, of course, though as you get more trains on your network that'll start causing congestion issues)

[rain lichen]

i don't even want to imagine that 😨

[dusky dust]

But yeah, regardless: if you want to save yourself some getting-used-to-more-things, just use Block Signals everywhere for now

Can always upgrade some intersections to Path Signals later if you're noticing slowdowns and want your trains to be a bit more zippy

And also, remember that signals are only needed when you've got more than one train on the rails. If you've got a small little route and you're only ever planning on having a single train on it, you can ignore signals entirely

[rain lichen]

i need at least two trains for this one

besides, i'm planning on connecting every railway on the map anyways

[runic shoal]

I wish we had old abandoned structures like abandoned train terminals with ore nodes nearby (almost like the tutorial map in factorio) and you can integrate them into your system

Give you essentially a "tutorial" on how to set up train networks

[wind spade]

the problem with that is forcing one solution upon a player instead of leaving them to be creative

[rain lichen]

would have to make some changes to your lore then

since you are the only pioneer in that area of the planet

[wind spade]

is the "third one to survive planetfall" no longer in the game?

[runic shoal]

But at least you'll have a basic understanding of the system

[rain lichen]

the planet is very big
your region isn't

[wind spade]

you can get basic understanding of the system by reading the ingame descriptions and experimenting with it (or just read wiki)

[rain lichen]

also iirc there's an easteregg where you can see a space elevator on one of the planet's "moons" (or planets) if you zoom in

[runic shoal]

As a visual learner I tend to learn from someone doing it and breakdown the steps for me to follow along so yt tutorials are nice but everyone I've seen leaves me more lost than I was

[rain lichen]

and tbh there are a lot of visual learners playing this game

[wind spade]

I personally don't like blindly following something, because then you don't learn how the thing works, but only how to build single "solution" that may not even be good

[runic shoal]

Heres the odd part I'm not good at math I mainly plug ship in and hope it doesn't explode

[runic shoal]

I think of it as learning the basics then tinkering with it based on what you've learned

[wind spade]

why not learn the basic by watching a tutorial on how thing works instead of watching a tutorial on how to build something?

[runic shoal]

Like show me the basics on how to build a intersection with little rules of thumbs and I'll use that to design my own crazy ass lookin intersection that makes you ask "this shouldn't work but somehow it does"

[wind spade]

basics of how to build intersection:

• put block signals around it, done

[runic shoal]

That's not no that's just a TLDR

[rain lichen]

tbh intersections arent that complex
just connect each rail to each direction (and use signals!)

[wind spade]

what more do you want to know?

anything else is just "build rail"

[rain lichen]

i guess how to integrate path signals if "needed"

but other than there isnt very much to say

[runic shoal]

How to make a decent looking intersection

[rain lichen]

practice

[wind spade]

don't do roundabouts, anything else is decent looking

[runic shoal]

Ok how do I make a cloverleaf interchange?

[outer vale]

google what one looks like and build it

looks simple enough, one main track crossing over the other, ramp turns between levels

[runic shoal]

cue montage of me spending hours making a square while trying to make a circle

[runic shoal]

K now how do I do the signaling what needs path and what need block?

[outer vale]

depends on throughput, you could probably get away with blocks at each junction

no different to any other intersection there really

[runic shoal]

Well considering I plan of having about 3 trains per biome of ores

[outer vale]

is this meant to be some sort of gotcha

only 3? yeah that'll be fine

[runic shoal]

About 6 cars per? (Ore depending on how many different ores are in each biome each ore gets a car)

Ntm a separate train for just crude oil

6 cars of oil x3 trains

My rail networks probably gunna resemble I-95 during rush hour

[outer vale]

I assume that's a road

hopefully your trains will be moving more than rush hour cars

[runic shoal]

Interstate 95 so yea

[outer vale]

sounds american

[runic shoal]

Prolly cuz it is

[outer vale]

my condolences

[runic shoal]

Goes from Maine down the coast all the way to Florida

[runic shoal]

Why do you think my main mission is to liberate as much oil as I possibly can

[rain lichen]

i like this idea, might do something similar on a creative save one day 🦅

every last drop of oil for one megafactory

using the most efficient possible recipes (oil-efficient of course)

[wind spade]

don't do megafactory

[rain lichen]

and of course
a munitions factory right next to it that's extremely prone to spontaneous combustion into flames

[rain lichen]

correction: do whatever the hell you'd like

megafactories are fun

[wind spade]

not when you have seconds per frame and daily headaches from all the logistic nightmares 😛

[rain lichen]

bah, that's the fun part!

[runic shoal]

Turn all oil into HOR dilute it into fuel devide resin into residual rubber/plastic take the rubber and some fuel turn it to plastic repeat for plastic turning into rubber

[wind spade]

residual rubber > residual plastic

[runic shoal]

I've got the plans in my head just lack sufficient time or energy and most likely FPS cuz my 4060 is good but man I ant even on oil yet I'm already running into 130ish fps

[nimble haven]

Is there a ground level door? like that can lay flat in hole gapes?

[rain lichen]

130 fps is in no way bad 😞

i've got a 4060ti, i'm on phase 4 with quite a lot of chaos in my main base and i'm averaging around 100 fps (with frame gen...)

[runic shoal]

I just half the resin between both systems then turn em into more of the other

[wind spade]

you're losing oil efficiency then

[runic shoal]

I've got the default 4060 and I have to have frame gen otherwise I don't break 100 fps

[rain lichen]

feel you bro 😔

[runic shoal]

Can't wait for the 5060 tho

[rain lichen]

real (i am not gonna buy that thing)

[wind spade]

residual rubber makes more plubber per resin

[rain lichen]

not because i don't want too there's just no universe where i'll afford it

[wind spade]

and since you're changing it to plastic anyway, it doesn't matter that you're making only residual rubber

[runic shoal]

Oh I love plubber! It's the perfect hybrid of plastic and rubber used in making shoes

[runic shoal]

Yea I'm kinda wanting to get the ti one with more vram as long as it's MSI and 2 fans I'm happy but I'll wait like 5 years for them to iron out the kinks and properly saturate the market so that way I can get it at or around MSRP (and wait till around cyber Monday when it's most likely on sale)

[runic shoal]

I just want to use up as much fuel as I can altho I could try and make packaged diluted turbofuel for making diamonds for powershards/APMs so yea I'll Def have to plot out alternate uses for the diluted fuel aside from packing it for vehicles so yea imma be spending some time in SFTools

[outer vale]

package and sink

or just burn it in gens, the pollution from that's worth it

[runic shoal]

Wait I just remembered something the ficsmas event repeats every year right if so do the rewards stay the same or are they different?

[runic shoal]

stares at turbo/rocket/ion fuel and comp. Byproduct burner powerplant yea I don't need power dude

[outer vale]

pfft who cares about the power, it's about sending a message

[runic shoal]

proceeds to make a "send dudes" message from the smoke of gas gens you mean like this?

[white bloom]

Question for the balancer veterans in this channel: Can there be any case where even though there is a matching in-out pair, you get a simpler balancer by not connecting them directly?

e.g. [12, 10] to [10, 6, 6] , you hook 10 to 10 and split the 12 to 6,6. But can you imagine any case where even though such a pair is in there, it's gonna be a simpler build if you don't hook them?

[wind spade]

tbh if you really want a balancer, you'd have to merge all and then balance

(but yeah I'm nitpicking a bit)

[white bloom]

what's the right word then? idk. you know what I mean. A splitter/balancer network that does not rely on output machines backing up

to transform one given set of loads into another one that is requested

[wind spade]

probably "ratio splitter" or something, but yeah I know what you mean 🙂

[outer vale]

something that takes you from a prime split to a non-prime one?
if you had say one belt of n, and 11 other belts of varying numbers that average n, then trying to prime balance/split that second set into 11 sets of n is gonna be more complex than adding that 12th belt in and doing a 3*2*2 split

bit of a contrived example there since you probably change your setup to not be so wacky, but it's an example

[white bloom]

nono that's alright, it can be arbitrarily contrived. I was wondering whether that's in principle possible at all. Let me think about it for a moment.

So there need to be at least two inputs for there to both exist a direct match and that match not being unavoidable.

So that would be [n, k] in and [k, eleven numbers that add to n]

can we find a specific such example where then you need fewer mergers and splitters by merging the n and k first and then distributing to the 12 outputs rather than k to k and split the 11

[outer vale]

splitting to 11 can be done by splitting to 12 then merging one back

so, one more merger than just splitting straight to 12

[white bloom]

and merging the k into the n also requires 1 merger... so that's at best a tie then, not a case where merging them was strictly better :\

[outer vale]

though I guess if you're including merging those 11 lines together yeah that

though in your initial example it was all coming in on one belt

so 77 pre-merged

sorry, I had 7 per belt in my mind so keep thinking with that in mind

[outer vale]

so if you had this as [7, 77] -> [7, 7, ...] then yes, this would be less splitters/mergers

[white bloom]

maybe a case where the prime split is harder than 11, which just requires looping one back?

[outer vale]

yeah, that was just the first one I thought of where adding an extra belt's worth brings it up to a splittable amount and removing one doesn't

[runic shoal]

Meanwhile my lazy arse just manifolds that shiz cuz my brain hurts just thinking of balancing shiz

[white bloom]

wait, is it?
direct: 1 merger for feedback, 1 split into 2, 2 splitters into 4, 4 splitters into 12. 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 8
merge: 1 merger for input, 1 split into 2, 2 split into 4, 4 split into 12. 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 8

but there can be cases where merging the feedback needs more than 1 merger while the input merge would always only take 1

like...

[outer vale]

hmm, good question... is there? since you don't always have to take the final splits to merge back

[white bloom]

13 seems bad. The smallest number completely divisble by 2s and 3s larger than that is 16.
Hm you're right that's not bad enough since you don't have to loop back 3 belts actually, you can take one from the second-last layer which carries 2 out and then fit it into one merger in the beginning. But there are even worse ones

[outer vale]

something where you'd have to loop back 4+ layers of things

721 of 729 (3^6)
You'd have to loop back 2 3s and 2 1s

[white bloom]

19? next divisible number is 24, so we have to loop back a value of 5. The only way to put a total load of 5 on two belts would be 1 + 4. But that requires doing the 1:2 splits last, which has more splitters than if the 1:3 splits are last.
Meanwhile, merging the input in, is just 1 merger and then the splitters comfortably arranged all 1:2s first and all 1:3s last

[white bloom]

if we go that high we can take 649 of 729, no 3-smooth number in between. But the challenge at that point is proving that the network candidate for the pair-up isn't just suboptimal.

maybe with the 19 case it's bad enough that it works and easier to verify

[outer vale]

out of interest was there an actual use case here or just curiousity?

[white bloom]

wanna pimp my program for finding minimal splitter networks. My current version is too slow because it tries every possible way to connect stuff. Was considering whether it's a safe assumption that matching pairs can be removed as pre-solve step or whether that loses optimality in some cases.

[dusky dust]

What's it written in, btw?

[white bloom]

Python for now. Was very convenient with the networkx module. When I got it algorithmically ironed out I might go through the pain to implement it in C++.

[dusky dust]

So yeah, this obviously wouldn't fully address the inherent problems with brute-force solvers, but you can often wring quite a bit more performance out of stuff like that by running it in PyPy, btw

I've got a bit of a hobby of writing bruteforce solvers for puzzle games in Python, and I generally end up running 'em in PyPy for a fair bit of extra performance. :)

Pre-processing optimizations like the thing you mentioned can often help a lot as well, of course. (Not sure about the specific thing you asked about; haven't actually taken the time to wrap my head around the problem you're working on)

(Obviously C++ is the real solution, performancewise, at least for sticking with bruteforce-type solving, but PyPy is generally a drop-in replacement)

[white bloom]

Pypy always looked a bit daunting to set up but the performance is tempting. I come from a more theoretical background so all the fiddling with getting libraries and stuff like this to work feels like a big hurdle for me

[outer vale]

real devs rewrite in Rust or whatever flavour of the day

[dusky dust]

Nah, it's super simple; just install and then run your script via that instead of Python

Generally requires zero code changes

[rain lichen]

okay i love trains

[dusky dust]

Is Rust still the hotness, or have we moved on to something else? I utterly failed to learn that thing properly, alas. (I say that as if it's an opportunity I've irrevocably missed or something)

[white bloom]

Wow, thanks for the hint I will check it out!

[dusky dust]

The main drawback is that PyPy has often lagged behind Python updates for awhile, so if you use PyPy you may not always be able to take advantage of more recent Python functionality. Like I seem to think they were stuck on 3.6 for quite awhile (3.11 seems to be their current)

[wind spade]

javascript

[magic dock]

I am stuck on programming in Ladder, so that sounds lovely lol

[wind spade]

javascript sounds great until you start to code in it

(then you find out that there's client-side JS and server-side JS and Typescript and everything is an object but not really, and the language has poor design and object + object is empty string and ...)

[dusky dust]

sneaks in a reference to destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

[wind spade]

oh yeah I listen to that like every month

timeless

[outer vale]

is that the one about JS type coercion

[wind spade]

(but also a bit outdated, {} + {} now resolves to "[object Obejct][objectObject]" )

[wind spade]

mostly

it's a few minutes, if you have at least some base in programming, heavily recommended to watch

[outer vale]

I think I've seen it before, definitely rings a bell

[white bloom]

OK tangential to my original Q but absolutely cursed finding: what's the smallest way to split 1:8? Three layers of 1:2? That's 7 machines. Two layers of 1:3 then looping one back is just 5. I want to un-think this 🤣

[white bloom]

After not getting any counterexample to work I just came up with a proof while pairing up directly can never be bad.
Imagine some clever network with all the ins and outs integrated and that's optimal by assumption.
You can always do the following change without having to build any additional machines:

1. unhook the matching input and output each from the integrated network.
2. Connect them directly.
3. Draw a feedback belt from the previous connection of the output to the previous connection of the input.
   No change to any belt load inside the network, no additional machine.
   Therefore it is admissible to restrict to matching pairs hooked up directly as presolve without this ever causing suboptimal results!

[gentle zephyr]

what is the best way to make "fuel powered energy" i have the polymer resen to make rubber, but im now consuming any amount of rubber, so my power is lacking becaus of that, and ofc i have a awsome sink connected aswell

[wind spade]

depends what you call best 🙂

[gentle zephyr]

what=

[thorn trail]

best requires criteria, ie. least fuel, least effort, most profit, etc

[wind spade]

there's no general "best", depends what you want from it

[gentle zephyr]

but how do i make it flow better then, cus my power isnt constant

[wind spade]

process all byproducts so that you have consistent fuel production

[gentle zephyr]

make fuel from polymer resin?

[wind spade]

from what you want 🙂

[gentle zephyr]

tahts not possible!

how do i make more fuel, from byproducts from making fuel? i dont get it

[dusky dust]

You can use your codex to see all the ways to make a resource. Hit o to open the codex directly, or n for a search bar. Search for "fuel", click on it, and then it'll show you all the ways you have to make fuel

When you start out with oil, the easiest way to get power from it is to just feed Crude Oil into some refineries making Fuel. Then sink the polymer resin. You can use a Smart Splitter with an output set to "overflow" if you want to use some of the resin to make other products

[gentle zephyr]

Thats my current setup, but it stills bottlecap my power

cus i dont use enough rubber

[dusky dust]

Use a Smart Splitter. Set an "Any" output to go to your processing, and "Overflow" to go to a sink

[gentle zephyr]

oh damn im sorry, i need to sink the rubber aswell, haha

[dusky dust]

No problem! I'd recommend putting the overflow-to-sink splitter right after the Fuel refineries, so there's no chance of it ever backing up

[R] = Refinery
[M] = Merger
[SS] = Smart Splitter

[M] -> [M] -> [M] -> [M] -> [SS] --(any)--> (process into rubber or whatever)
 ^      ^      ^      ^      |
 |      |      |      |    (overflow)
[R]    [R]    [R]    [R]     |
                             V
                           [Sink]

[gentle zephyr]

can you DM me that, i have to go sleep now

[dusky dust]

Heh, I have faith that you can copy it into a text file or something yourself. :)

[gentle zephyr]

ah hahhah

[queen lintel]

I have made a plan

I somerslooped everything

this is (obviously) only possible to do in "creative" mode but STILL

over 22 THOUSAND heavy modular frames PER MINUTE

[dusky dust]

Gods but I hate those graphs

If Modeller has some kind of feature-request system, please for the love of $whatever get them to add in labels for that stuff

[wind spade]

or just make modeller use Tools

[dusky dust]

It's just absolutely awful at conveying information, which is unfortunately the whole point of sharing graphs

[vapid gorge]

yeah, I imagine that for the people who created their plans, them knowing what it's doing gives them the core knowledge to easily read and understand it

but for others? awful

[dusky dust]

Tiny little assembler icons sitting right next to tiny little foundry icons; having to mentally tally up what resources are being used to have a prayer of knowing what recipes are in use, etc...

Yeah, I'm sure it's a useful tool for your own factory planning, and I guess you get all that info if you mouseover

[wind spade]

my personal "worst" is the lack of recipe names

[vapid gorge]

YES

[wind spade]

good luck figuring out if you used RIPs or Bolted plates

[fallow siren]

u can easily maximize hmf production if you use tools instead of manually doing things in modeller

[queen lintel]

I've managed to make it use everything

(btw yes this also hurts my eyes I'm just so tired that I don't care to make it look better)

[vapid gorge]

you can't sloop things in current version of tools. But imo that's not a loss, don't like the duping mechanics

[wind spade]

would be relatively easy to make a dataset that just has all recipes slooped and run the query there... but I don't have time to do it now

[queen lintel]

I'd love to be insane enough to actually go ahead and built the whole factory but yea no

[dusky dust]

I suspect it's pretty rare that the best place to sloop material isn't at the final step, for folks sticking to the vanilla sloop limits

(Though yeah, I've thought it might be neat to be able to have it solve for where the "ideal" place to use 'em is)

[vapid gorge]

yeah depends which resources you're looking at. There's a good step at for presure cubes before PAs, only takes 2 sloops

[wind spade]

in some rare cases if there's intermediate step that's really fast, it may be beneficial to sloop that one due to using less sloops

but yeah, in most cases just sloop last step and you're happy 😉

[fallow siren]

sloops works better in constructor ig

as they only need one per machine

like ficsit trigon

[civic bronze]

Can be done with supercomputers too theres one alt in assembler

[vapid gorge]

but you generally need more than 4 constructors to feed a whole manufacturer

[vapid gorge]

that recipe is certainly a choice

[fallow siren]

the OC alt?

yeah could work too

[remote flame]

Within the standard vanilla limits (x2 max multipler for sloops), for simplicity you will be slooping the final production building(s).
But it pretty much breaks down to the following;

• If there exists an alt recipe utilising a different building that has fewer somersloop slots to fully 2x, it always is better for reducing the used amount of sloops for the same doubled output. (Plutonium Fuel Rod against Alt: Plutonium Fuel Unit is a primary example, Crystal Computer another, OC Supercomputer being gigantic, etc.)

• An alt recipe with a higher throughput to produce the same material is a self explanatory spot to target with sloops.

• A building that is feeding a 'multiplying' recipe. I call recipes that add water to increase input to output resource effectiveness a multiplier since water it's considered practically infinite (calculated November last year as being realistically 12,021,125m^3/min). So HOR is an excellent spot as it feeds Diluted Fuel, or Alt: Quartz Purificiation as it dramatically increases the potential of each quartz ore w. Dissolved Silica. The Pure Ingot recipes are multiplier recipes in this regard, but there isn't anything before those refineries to sloop.

• Any production chain with a feedback loop (recycled water as an example) has a lot of potential for sloops too in some cases. An example is the Alt: Sloppy Alumina, Alt: Electrode Aluminium Scrap loop. Suppose you have a 166.6666... % clocked Sloppy Alumina Refinery (set to make 400 solution/min), you can just ditch in a single sloop to 1.5x the refinery output to make 600 Solution/Min, and coincidentally make it so it overproduces water on the next stage to not only sustain itself once primed, but have enough left over to use on the Polymer Resin byproduct from the Heavy Oil Residue earlier on (petroleum coke needed in electrode scrap). This example is also more efficient of a spot to use a sloop then using it on the final building. (One insightful conversation with @crimson moat inspired that example haha). It happens to totally eradicate the need for input water to make aluminium once primed as a funky side effect.
  The Recycled Rubber/Plastic loop only has this effect if you are producing one resource or the other as your output, not both rubber and plastic. Once you have both, you are better off slooping the Heavy Oil Residue right at the start entirely.

• Once you throw SAM ore and converters in to the mix it can alter 'maximum potential ', not necessarily max resource effectiveness. like Full-map use uranium plants. for example, we know the maximum uranium fuel rod potential is 50.4/Min with no sloops or SAM, and 4 sloops has the potential to double 1x 250% machine giving you 1.5 rods more/min. Or for 3 sloops (1x 250% converter and 1 sloop on the Reanimated SAM constructor), you can make 600 Uranium Ore/min giving the added potential of 14.4 Uranium Fuel Rods/min, but saves no cost on any other resource (and an additional 1800 copper ore). For perspective that's nearly 38 Sloops needed to double production enough to gain an extra 14.4 in the Fuel Unit stage vs. 3 utilising SAM and some copper... SAM ore is always powerful to sloop purely to expand how much production can use it due to its rarity. You need 34 sloops in total to sloop the entirety of the SAM ore on the map in the reanimated SAM stage.

• If you play in creative mode with infinite sloops... well just sloop everything then... ._. Like 75 Oil/min with every single stage slooped can make easily 1200 Rubber and 1200 Plastic/min, and Im sure I calculated that wrong and it's even higher.

[civic bronze]

I also used two sloops to make 450 quartz crystal from 600 raw quartz and not 750 (i only had 2 impure quartz nodes nearby) and it saved me there

I Have drones now, so i dont think this would be neccesary now tho

[opal locust]

Now that I'm in Phase 4, I need to expand my power grid. I was thinking about a Diluted Packaged Fuel setup to get me enough power until I can get a Rocket Fuel facility going.

[wind spade]

or nuclear 🙂

[opal locust]

I just started Phase 4, that's a long ways off

[wind spade]

diluted fuel can get you there easily

[opal locust]

One step at a time.

[wind spade]

yeah, just saying that you don't really need to plan for TF/RF since nuclear is there

[opal locust]

diluted fuel first.

I know the blender version is supposedly simpler, but you kind of need your aluminum facility running in order to make blenders.

[white bloom]

yeah that has been done. It's pretty simple for any given objective.

When you have an optimizer for that objective without Somersloops, it can be used to extract shadow prices (i.e. value) for each resource and power w.r.t. that objective. That is, how much more of the objective can you achieve per unit of extra of each resource you were granted at the margin.

Then to determine the best place to allocate 1 sloop, you take for each eligible recipe the value of the output times the production rate increase for 1 sloop at 250% clock speed, minus the value of power times the amount of extra power consumed. Whichever recipe yields the highest result for this is the one you will want to put your next sloop into. That works until there is no more not-yet-slooped production of that recipe, in which case it becomes ineligible, then you proceed with the second best one.

This is why you see in optimal solutions wrt specific objectives always one recipe slooped to the max and only leftover sloops then allocated to a second best one etc.

Or modify the optimizer to consider the possibility to sloop from the onset. But this is how you can use even one that doesn't to achieve the same outcome.

[wind spade]

there's almost no difference between them, DPF is fine to use

only thing is very slightly increased power cost compared to DF

[opal locust]

Well I put this together, though I'm not sure how much power it produces.

[wind spade]

why making packaged fuel? make normal fuel and loop the canisters

[opal locust]

"Input: Empty Canisters"

[wind spade]

yeah, why

[opal locust]

they're being provided and looped and not made on site

[wind spade]

the whole system recycles the canisters, you don't need to produce them

you only need to put them in the loop (by hand) at the start

[opal locust]

I'm...not producing them?

I'm using the leftover resin for fabric

[wind spade]

you could've told tools to make fuel and it would recycle the canisters for you 🙂

didn't need to add the input

[opal locust]

I did

[wind spade]

you told it to make packaged fuel

I'm saying you could've said "make me fuel"

[opal locust]

and I have the diluted packaged fuel alternate checked

[wind spade]

no need to input canisters this way

[opal locust]

either way, the result is the same.

[wind spade]

yeah just saying you could've done it simpler and not bother with inputting canisters 🙂

[opal locust]

Now I'm not sure how much power it actually produces

does power sharding a generator increase the power provided on a 1:1 scale?

[wind spade]

divide amount of fuel by amount one gen needs to run, multiply by gen power production

[wind spade]

as well as fuel consumed, essentially the same as building multiple gens

[white bloom]

yes, always overclock your power production buildings to the max

to have to build fewer buildings

it doesn't improve your power efficiency in any way though

[wind spade]

eh, I'd say shards are better used elsewhere

[opal locust]

example, a fuel generator burning regular fuel at 100% is 750 MW, so a sharded generator at 250% produces 1875 MW?

[white bloom]

1. Miners and overslooped buildings
2. then power generators
3. then everything else is worse since efficiency actually deteriorates

[rain lichen]

you have more than enough in the world

||and eventually you can just automate them||

[wind spade]

yeah, but saying "always overclock gens" is weird

[opal locust]

especially if you sloop a constructor making power shards from slugs to double the shard output from the world map alone

[rain lichen]

that's fair, it really depends on how many you're building 🙂

[wind spade]

I'd say "overclock them if you want to save space" (which is practically infinite)

[white bloom]

yes, and consumed 2.5x as much fuel too, so energy yield per fuel is the same, but you need to build fewer buildings to achieve the same outcome

[opal locust]

it's the difference between making 80 fuel generators, or 32

[wind spade]

and 80 gens look better than 32 🤷

(and you also need 96 shards, so if you don't have that many, building 80 gens is faster)

[opal locust]

but, that turns out to be, 60 GW of power? Off of a single pure crude oil node?

[white bloom]

you can still build 80 gens and just have 32 hooked up if you like empty buildings being useless

[opal locust]

is that math right?

[wind spade]

or build 80 hooked and working gens without clocking 🤷

[white bloom]

but if you do building 32 is a lot faster and saves on building cost materials as well as saving space and game performance from having fewer buildings

[wind spade]

is 250MW, not 750MW

[rain lichen]

subjective
imo i dont like the look of an ocean of fuel gens, but some do

[opal locust]

Ohhh, 750 burned over 3 seconds

so 20 GW

[white bloom]

if you like lots of buildings, underclock production buildings to improve power efficiency there and also get your lots of pretty buildings, but save on power generation buildings which are being useless once you do have the excess power shards to go around

[opal locust]

Sharding buildings so you build less also keeps your computer happy.

[white bloom]

this

[white bloom]

it's just this pretty much that should be the priority list for your power shards, don't see a reason to order anything anywhere else

[fallow siren]

fully overclocked machine is just 33% more power

[white bloom]

that's why it's third priority, not "don't do at all"

the last one is just matter of preference how much you value power efficiency against building count but the first two are always good, unless you inherently value extra building count for its own sake like our devil's advocate greeny here 😉

[opaque quartz]

Correct. Diluted fuel nets you 20 GW per 600 oil

[pastel obsidian]

OC also saves on building as well which saves you time

[remote flame]

tldr to overclocking;
If you have all the shards you need or could ask for, and a big enough powergrid, then go nuts 😛
It only has a disadvantage of more power draw for production buildings over 100% Clockspeeds, that's it

[rain lichen]

i only start worrying/paying attention to my powergrid if i'm slooping a million machines (or one particle accelerator...)

[remote flame]

If you overclock enough particle accelerators to 250% and sloop them all, you can make your grid a sinusoidal mess that would give any seasoned player a heart attack 🤣 power storages come in clutch

[rain lichen]

i was using over half my grid to power a single overclocked and slooped particle accelerator doing my temp nuclear pasta for phase 4

[remote flame]

perfection. Now add another with some power storages to buffer it 🤣

[rain lichen]

nah, too expensive (mind you, i haven't automated turbo motors NOR have i touched fused modular frames 😓)

i didn't even do HMF until mid-phase 4 haha

[white bloom]

technically, the decreased power efficiency is a disadvantage of having a higher clockspeed vs a lower clockspeed at any point, not just over 100%.
Everyone needs to make up their mind about how much extra W they're willing to pay per saved building (of each type, if that matters to you), and that personal exchange rate then uniquely dictates your personal optimal clock speed of production buildings (of each type).

[rain lichen]

for me
my i clock buildings based on the amount of buildings look best

for example if i really only need 3, but 4 buildings are a perfect fit within my confined space, i'll underclock them to make room for 4

[white bloom]

right, aesthethics optimization is not covered by that rule above

[remote flame]

pretty much! In my scenario, the power grid is massive enough that I'll never even think twice about my power efficiency. I just default to telling people that If you're running out of power/very power conscience, you should probably build a bigger grid 😛 even early game, it can really make a difference how you progress even without the shards involved!

[rain lichen]

for me, the "rule of cool" is the most important rule in my handbook!

[white bloom]

so my usual comment to this point is that unless you intrinsically like power production, whatever your personal goals otherwise are it does never not matter to waste the opportunity cost of excessive power production. So whenever you build or configure something that needs more power, you theoretically have to factor in that this means you have to divert more resources into power production, which you then do no longer have at your disposal for whatever you actually care about.

if you optimize for some conceivable goal, power therefore always has a low but nonzero price at the margin. If minimizing building count partially factors into your goal (it probably does, you're unlikely building everything at 1%) the weighting of goals dictates a certain clock speed at which the exchange rate is optimal for you personally. Underclocking further doesn't save enough power to justify the ramping-up increase in building count, and overclocking further doesn't save enough building count to justify the ramping-up power expense

in practice obviously especially as you're building up you don't budget power so tightly, as it's bothersome to reconfigure and slightly increase your power grid for every new manufacturer you've built. You build power grid in chunks whenever necessary. But you're still better off building all at clock settings that are tuned to your personal goals

[alpine steeple]

how does one build 96 fuel power generators without going mad?

[remote flame]

Absolutely! It's like the Rocket Fuel Lovers and the Nuclear Power Enthusiasts. Uranium does not get used for any purpose in Project Assembly, but under a technicality neither does Sulfur. Both have their merits and advantages, the uranium stage is a clear winner for how conscience it is of burning up more 'prized' resources, like oil and nitrogen in the R.Fuel production, and is a good challenge for people to make! R.Fuel dominates a lot of playthroughs purely because of simplicity (and absolutely the Nitro Recipe, which sucks on sulfur ofc), I remember posting in screenshots the time I made a 180,000MW R.Fuel plant in under 2 hours, generators, belts and all. #screenshots message

People make their power goals in satisfactory all scaleable to what goals they wish to achieve. As you go through the phases, I do agree that I also scale up my power as needed (From Phase 1-5 it's roughly 750MW Bio, 4800MW Coal, 20,000MW DilutedFuel, 280,000MW RocketFuel/Nuclear, 500,000MW+ (Nuclear) for me) then whatever my end of phase 5 goal hits afterwards.

In my case, Sure I make over 1,000,000MW of usable power (w. power boosting too), But I built it all on the opposite side of the map where needing the resources is incredibly unlikely, and I don't think of power anymore no matter the project 🙂 , Its a complete ease of mind. Resource wise, I don't believe Im even 35% of the whole map for full game completion, and I am certain my game will crash from building count long before I ever do use it all / get close to the resources for my power generation, so if resources become a worry.. then thats a different story of overdoing it 🤣

It's a sandbox game, build what you like, burn power as hard as you like, the factory must grow
In terms of disadvantages again from overclocking.. again, yes it eats more power, but its a personal choice to benefit other areas tremendously 🙂

[remote flame]

If you've already clocked them all to 250% (with powershards) to pull down the amount of them (as you get no disadvantages on power efficiency), then the next best way is making a blueprint of 4x Fuel Generators in the Mk.2 Blueprinter. Speeds up the process tremendously! In your case, 24 blueprints of 4x gens and youre finished!

[alpine steeple]

wait what thought powershards messed up how much power u made? or was that in an older update also i forgot blueprints existed (havent played much of the new updates) thanks

[remote flame]

I think way back in E.A it used to scale a bit weird, but it is completely linear in power generation buildings 🙂

[white bloom]

it doesn't mess up, they're perfectly save to use in power generating buildings. The messing up thing only happens in extraction and production buildings

[outer vale]

it used to mess up power generation too, but according to the wiki that was pre 0.7

[white bloom]

yes

[alpine steeple]

was around when i stopped playing lol

[dusky dust]

(and @white bloom ) Thanks for the thoughts! I'll digest later; too early in the day to get the brain workin' yet (plus just started allergy meds yesterday, which always makes me pretty dopey for a few days until my system gets used to 'em). :) That's fun re: the aluminum loop; hadn't considered using 'em there

[vapid gorge]

if you type

'snipping tool'

in your start bar you'll have a tool where you can take partial pics and paste them in chat it's easiest

[vapid gorge]

coal generators seem fine but I'd really build everything on foundations with fluids, makes things easier

also - don't use buffers. They'll at best do nothing, at worst mess up flow

[fierce ruin]

what do you mean

[vapid gorge]

which bit?

[fierce ruin]

both

what are foundations and fluids, and buffers

[vapid gorge]

well building everything on foundations helps keep things neater and with pipes you want them neat, cause flow can be an issue

these things you built here are foundations , the grey blocks.

[fierce ruin]

Ohhhh

[vapid gorge]

and 'fluid buffers' are the standing things in the middle of the pipes. If you look at your menu you'll see the name 'fluid buffer'

[fierce ruin]

the tanks i see

[vapid gorge]

so yeah, build your factories on foundations. Especially ones that need fluid

[fierce ruin]

will do but i still dont understand how many factories power for what amount

[vapid gorge]

well each coal generator makes 75mw

you can power 75mw of machines with it

that's it really

[fierce ruin]

how do i get to 300w

[outer vale]

how many 75s make 300?

[vapid gorge]

4x75 = 300

[fierce ruin]

oh i see, okey, 1 more issue, i dont want all my generators to rely same watts power on the extractors and miners, how do i prevent that

[vapid gorge]

what do you mean?

[fierce ruin]

so, i power ehm, 1 extractor and 1 miner into same power line as 1 coal genrator which is pulling 25w, how do i make it so i dont pull that 25w across all 4 coal generators when connected up

[storm imp]

Question - So I'm soon to finish shipping off the Phase 4 components on my No Alternative Recipe playthrough..

Stuff become more and more complex, thus far I have build "stand-alone" factories, meaning for example Nuclear Pasta, I'm putting in standard recipe for Nuclear Pasta into SCIM, then I look at the interactive map, where it would be best to place the factory in terms of resources required - and starts building, and produce the minimum amount for dimensional storage.

I haven't really grasped the concept of "Mega factories" where if its better to say make a factory where you produce, say 200 Modular Frames / Minute, and then use a global transport system like Trains, or Drones to then ship them around for other factories, and then upscale that production once the 200 Modular Frames has been used for production.. But I can't say if that becomes to unorganized or too much a hassle to control down the road..

[vapid gorge]

you only connect 1 of them? I guess?

[vapid gorge]

but why ? it makes your life much harder

[fierce ruin]

yeah im thats why im asking how like not make it power that,

[vapid gorge]

just connect all the generators to the same set of power lines

[fierce ruin]

but rest of 3 need power

[vapid gorge]

just connect all of them together

[fierce ruin]

does everyone have same issue then?

[vapid gorge]

you're making up an issue that doesn't exist

[vapid gorge]

making 200 hmf wouldn't really be a 'megafactory', that's usually used as a term for a factory that makes basically everything in one spot

I don't under stand what you mean by 'then upscale production' . Make another factory.

or plan top down so you know how many HMF pm you need

[fierce ruin]

so you see each of my generators, its all consuming 25 wats each, i want only 1 of them doing 25w, and rest do 0w

[outer vale]

the generators aren't consuming anything

it's the other stuff they're connected to (presumably the miner and water extractor

[fierce ruin]

ye

how do i like idk fix that

[outer vale]

there's nothing to fix

if you connect them all to one grid, then you'll still only be using 25 MW for that

[vapid gorge]

they don't each consume 25mw

in total you're using 25mw

[fierce ruin]

but im losing 25w on each genrator so in total im losing capacity of 75w

[outer vale]

no

[vapid gorge]

all for generators are making 150mw , in red
the TOTAL for all machines using power on this grid is 25mw , in yellow

[fierce ruin]

yep

[vapid gorge]

150 -25 = 125 mw left over

[fierce ruin]

🧐

[vapid gorge]

you can even see the difference in the lines here.

the top grey line is about 6 times higher up than the blue consumption line

[fierce ruin]

oh okay

sorry

[fierce ruin]

thanks for making it make sense

[amber umbra]

@storm imp Those later game items get very unconstrained in how you make them, so there isn’t a right/wrong way to do things. If you want to try the style where a factory makes a given item then transports it to other factories downstream, HMF fits well with it. I like pairing with drones as they make cross map transport easy.

[storm imp]

Deffo me misinterpretating the word "mega factory" as said, I usually just setup a "stand-alone" factory to produce a single item at regular 100% capacity, maybe slooped..

But I feel like this becomes too much of a hassle, as items become more and more complex, and setting up a Aluminum Production for the 10th time, or Steel Production for the 100th time - feels like I'm doing it wrong, and should instead have a centralized location where I setup a larger production, and then split it out from there..

[fierce ruin]

also 1 more thing, for your build, how much can mienr mk1 power 45 coal in max amount of generators?

[vapid gorge]

build higher tier items on location then. Like you could do super computers in one spot. But HMF is a fairly big production line and very convenient to move

[vapid gorge]

just feed 45 coal down a line of splitters , like this but with generators

[amber umbra]

Aluminum ingots, drone fuel, HMF, computers, crystal oscillators are all pretty common “build them all in one spot” items from what I’ve seen.

[fierce ruin]

yeah i got it like that

i was going to do 1 miner per genrator but i went with 4, idk if i can exceed it to like 6-8 but dpeends on my speed of miner and converyer?

sorry my english aint good

[vapid gorge]

yes, depends on your miner and belt

[vapid gorge]

research 'clocking' in the MAM, it'll let you mine faster with power shards in the miner

[fierce ruin]

what are power shards oh ye

[vapid gorge]

you collect the glowing slugs around the world, and research them in the MAM

[fierce ruin]

alien purple type of stuff?

[vapid gorge]

you can make power shards, and it makes machines work faster.
it's good on miners because it means you can get more coal or iron

[vapid gorge]

!wikisearch slug

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/index.php?search=slug

[vapid gorge]

these

[fierce ruin]

damn, i think i saw one but there were too many spiders so i got scared XD

[vapid gorge]

there's lots around the world, don't worry

but I'm going to bed.

[fierce ruin]

oh goodnight!

you helped me a lot

[vapid gorge]

the wiki is a good source of info, there might be a version in your language too 🙂 https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Satisfactory_Wiki

[fierce ruin]

🙂

[vapid gorge]

you're welcome!

[fierce ruin]

is this ok for water effiency?

i know the pipe is going up but still

[alpine steeple]

Yes have you unlocked overclocking

[fierce ruin]

what does that mean XD

[limber nest]

Are trucks that useful? I feel like having to deal with fueling them is a pain. Not even using drones for the same reason, annoying to figure out all the fuel transportation around the map seems like a pain

[alpine steeple]

Picl up a powerslug

[limber nest]

Im on tier 9 with no trucks, 1 drone for the canisters for rocket fuel, and just basic trains for messing around, litearlly just 2 trains rn

[fierce ruin]

??

what do you mean by power slug

[alpine steeple]

You know the blue things that glow

[fierce ruin]

Nope

[alpine steeple]

https://tenor.com/view/satisfactory-chud-chud-son-power-slug-slug-gif-14602839749787880418

[fierce ruin]

where get them and how do they work and is it perm or do i keep needing them constantly

[alpine steeple]

You can find them around the map

Then take it to the mam

[alpine steeple]

You can craft them into powershards

Which make machines more efficent

[fierce ruin]

do i need constantly these shards after certain time or

im quite new maybe i should get it later

[outer vale]

yeah they're nice to have but not really required this early on. If anything, underclocking will likely be more useful and that just needs one shard to unlock, none to use

[alpine steeple]

You can use them or not its up to you but id recommend it

[fierce ruin]

how much does it help

and there is slots for these each machine?

[alpine steeple]

3 slots

[fierce ruin]

does each shard do 20% faster for example

[alpine steeple]

and for massive projects its useful as you can get more items per miner

[alpine steeple]

50% per shard for a total of 150%

[fierce ruin]

in terms of speed?

is all of those shards the same thing but different colours?

[alpine steeple]

yeah if you produce 120 per minute and add 3 shards you will now produce 300 per minute

[fierce ruin]

holy

[limber nest]

each slug gives you a different number of shards. blue 1, yellow 2, purple 5. Use somersloops in a constructor to double that if you have output doubling unlocked, if not dont worry about it right now

[alpine steeple]

they r early game so i dont think they have the power capacity for somersloops

[limber nest]

power shouldnt be too big of an issue since you wouldnt have that machine running all the time anyway

[fierce ruin]

uhm

[limber nest]

but fair point, probably too early to have the doubling unlocked to begin with anyway

[fierce ruin]

what stage is that phase

[alpine steeple]

its unlocked in the mam right?

[limber nest]

its unlocked in the mam so you could have it pretty early

[fierce ruin]

oh i see alr ty, i think im just gonna try find some type of slug so ye

is there a nest for them or specific spots, caves or biomes

[alpine steeple]

trees

[limber nest]

theyre everywhere lol

you'll see some sort of effect around them and a specific sound too

[alpine steeple]

there is just shy of 600 lol should find them quite easily

[limber nest]

and those are just blue lol

[fierce ruin]

oh alrighty

xD

[fierce ruin]

ok i managed to organise it all and wallah, its actually working great

[alpine steeple]

why u there lol

id put a pump if have them unlocked on the pipes but apart from that it looks great

[fierce ruin]

the small thing?

what does it do

[alpine steeple]

makes sures the water flow is correct so that you dont get water shortages even tho u have enough water

[fierce ruin]

ohh i see, where should i place them

[alpine steeple]

on the pipe just half way to the coal plants

[fierce ruin]

ah alr, i see some pipe has 2cm missing i see

alr ty

idk what i did but im getting less power consumption now

nvm im dumb at maths

[alpine steeple]

guys is this meta (someone put a big ass rock in my factory)

[fierce ruin]

Tnt it! XD

[alpine steeple]

i wish lol but its indestructible

[fierce ruin]

is that a jungle

[alpine steeple]

its a mountain

[fierce ruin]

im on about the trees and stuff

the green

[alpine steeple]

not sure its near a forest swamp thingy

[fierce ruin]

ohhh right, is there snow biomes too

[alpine steeple]

no but theres a desert swamps grasslands and second desert

and alot of forests

[opal locust]

I'm going to need a little help organizing my thoughts as this fuel plant is the first time I've really scaled up a facility to lategame levels

[civic bronze]

Scribbe it all down on paper

[harsh schooner]

or use calc websites

[outer vale]

I assumed there was gonna be a followup message

[opal locust]

I have it mapped on Satisfactory Tools, but it comes down to visualizing it

[outer vale]

what's the actual question?

[opal locust]

I've never done Phase 4 before, so I'm not used to larger builds.

And my first plan is a diluted packaged fuel plant to expand my power grid, I did all the math last night, now I'm actually building it.

step 1, 20 refineries to turn 600 crude oil into 800 heavy oil residue

So, since 800 is above the mk2 pipeline cap of 600, do I split the HOR into 2 sets of 400 to go into the next refineries?

[outer vale]

would be a sensible idea, yes

assuming that 600 is all coming in from that bottom pipe, you also want to add a second pipe connecting from the first junction to the last.
Pushing 600 is a lil finicky, and looping like that will help keep it stable

if you've instead got 300 coming in each side, then you'll be fine

[opal locust]

it's a sharded pure node so 600 in 1 pipe

so a secondary pipe like this?

[harsh schooner]

tip: use blueprints, easy done and makes everything simpler

especially with refineries

[opal locust]

I could never really figure out blueprints.

[harsh schooner]

ig u have mk2 blueprint designer

so just put like 4 refineries in a Bp

and connect them with pipes and belts without those clipping and power pols

then save it and later on you can spam blueprint next to blueprint and only need to connect power, belts and pipe segments

[outer vale]

maybe I build too bespoke, but I never found blueprints to be a great time saver for production buildings

[harsh schooner]

yyes they are very helpful

lemme show u a screenshot of my factory where i used blueprints for all kind of buildings

[outer vale]

I imagine it won't look super different to mine where I don't 😛

[harsh schooner]

this without blueprints, never

here my blueprints were pretty bad which made me do some extra beltwork which i could have easy fixed but i never did

[harsh schooner]

if u would do a BP for refinieries rn you could build the other 40 in like 2 mins

and then need only 4 mins to connect everything and put input belts and pipes and output ones and ur done

[dusky dust]

Ahh, the ol' "tweaking this one thing in my blueprints would require actually putting a blueprinter down; can't be arsed" problem. :D

[harsh schooner]

fr

all my blueprints had left to right inputs and outputs, but 70% of the time i could have used better right to left inputs and left to right outputs

too late now :P

but otherwise i would have never gotten this beautiful belt work

[opal locust]

Well I made some 2x2, 3x3, 4x4, and 5x5 foundation blueprints to make that part faster

[harsh schooner]

which part exactly?

like building foundations?

i have a 5x5 as well

[opal locust]

yeah concrete foundation

but is that the right way to do a secondary pipe?

[dusky dust]

Ah, yeah, I tend to make four variants of my "basic" ones, with LTR/RTL inputs, and LTR/RTL outputs

[harsh schooner]

yes

[dusky dust]

Though when I'm making blueprints for specific factories I'll generally just stick with the one that fits the factory

[harsh schooner]

should have done that too 💀

[opal locust]

so what's getting me next is the next set of refineries, How do I split 2 sets of 400 into 27?

[oblique hollow]

ya dont

[opal locust]

do I do 2 sets of 14 and have the 14th of each go .3334?

[oblique hollow]

care for some more info / numbers?

just the machine count is a bit vague

[opal locust]

I posted the tools production planner

[wind spade]

have set that needs X, where X is the amount you have in pipe

[oblique hollow]

i dont see where the 400 comes from tho

oh 400 heavy oil

[wind spade]

if your pipe has 400, hook it to machines that need 400

[opal locust]

600 crude oil makes 800 HOR

[oblique hollow]

i though it was refineries 💀

[opal locust]

I have to split that HOR into 2 sets of 400

and then that goes into the next set of refineries with packaged water for the diluted packaged fuel

[oblique hollow]

it'd be simpler to subdivide it more than 2 x 400

[wind spade]

make the DPF a 1:1:1 loop

1 refinery, 2 packagers, belt looping around them

[oblique hollow]

3 HOR refineries go into 4 DPF refineries

[wind spade]

you can make it as a blueprint and put ~20 canisters into the blueprint, save it and just repeat it X times

[oblique hollow]

120/min

[opal locust]

well, since it makes enough fuel for 80 generators(32 if I shard them), I should split the HOR into 4 sets of 200?

[oblique hollow]

how bout 120 x 6 + 80

(aka 240 x 3 + 80)

[opal locust]

you lost me

[oblique hollow]

you want 800 total

[opal locust]

but you can't do 3 into 4, that requires 21 HOR refineries

[oblique hollow]

hor is made in 40/min
DPF refineries need 30/min
200 is a shitty number for 30/min supplies

[oblique hollow]

3 refineries to 4 refineries
and then the last one is a bit deformed and is not 3 to 4

that last one is that 80/min one

the other ones are sets of 3 to 4 or 6 to 8
6 to 8 is 240/min HOR

[opal locust]

I still don't get it.

[oblique hollow]

6 refineries making HOR (240/min HOR) to 8 making DPF
you do that 3 times
then the last extra set is 2 HOR refineries to 2.666 DPF refineries
done

800/min HOR made and used
26.66666 DPF refineries and 20 HOR refineries

that is 24 fuel generators (at 100%) per 8 DPF refineries

[opal locust]

but then how do you reintegrate that last group? or do you just live with a lopsided 4th group of generators?

[oblique hollow]

yes

[opal locust]

I don't like it.

[oblique hollow]

then you can try to spread that out over the other 3 groups if you want.
either way, some number is gonna be "ugly"

each group of refineries would then have 0.66666 HOR refineries and 0.888888 DPF refineries extra

[opal locust]

So, then I'm trying to picture how to connect it together

because I also need the packagers and water extractors for the packaged water

the second set of packagers to unpack the fuel is simple enough

[oblique hollow]

1 packager + unpackager directly in front and after each DPF refinery

that way you dont get those atrocious canister loops that take 9000 canisters

[opal locust]

so then where would I setup the water extractors?

behind the first packagers?

[oblique hollow]

wherever you want of course

[opal locust]

because that's a lot of piping for water otherwise

[oblique hollow]

you cant really ensure that you can always have a water extractor right next to those packagers

you either have long pipes or long belts
either one is gonna be annoying for a number of reasons

so just pick your poison

[opal locust]

I'd rather have long belts, they're easier to figure out.

So, since I need a 1:1:1 ratio of packager/refinery/packager, should I keep that 1:1 going by underclocking each water extractor?

[oblique hollow]

what, you want one extractor per packager?
for what

ultimately tho,pick whatever you feel like working with more

[opal locust]

oh wait, the packager needs 60 water/min, an extractor does 120, so, 2 extractors linked together to 4 packagers?

so more a 0.5:1:1:1?

[oblique hollow]

whatever you wanna do

the world is your oyster

[opal locust]

I know, but I got to Phase 4 twice before, looked at the looming complexity, and quit. Not this time.

It's why I'm asking for guidance.

[oblique hollow]

my guidance is "pick what you are comfortable with" because then you can just get to work

instead of being paralyzed by setups and ratios that are a pain for you

it literally doesnt matter how you wanna do it

it all does the job the same way

so now you just need to settle on the one you feel like is most workable for you

want 2 extractors per 4 packagers? then do it

want 1 to 1? also doable.
just needs more space

[wind spade]

want 100 extractors per 1 packager?

you're insane, but go for it

[opal locust]

No my math was off, I though packaged water needed 100/minute, then I saw it was 60/minute

which lines up with a 2:4 ratio of extractors to packagers

[restive sparrow]

2:4 sounds a lot like 1:2

[opaque quartz]

You could also overclock the water extractors to produce 300/min which would supply 5 packaged water loops each

Just depends on how much space you have to place extractors and pipes

[opaque token]

guys please tell me i got it wrong

[wind spade]

yes you have some weird numbers in there

[opaque token]

nono

that's not per minute

[fierce ruin]

My new save vs my first save... geez what a difference. I wonder how I'll make it even better this time around

kinda sucks not having a jetpack though ngl

[opaque token]

wait no it is
20 versatile /min

[harsh schooner]

alien power aug but no jetpack??

[harsh schooner]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/planners/production

[wind spade]

yes, you do. Somehow you got 10 extra ingots

[fierce ruin]

left side is my current save, right is my first save

i did get the jetpack lol

[wind spade]

tbh I wouldn't recommend that planner

[harsh schooner]

ooh i thought otherway around

[fierce ruin]

though it was after the aug iirc

[harsh schooner]

im using the tools one as well but since u sent a screen with that one..

[wind spade]

I sent a screen from Tools

[harsh schooner]

ooh

my bad

ig im too tired from working on my essay

[opaque token]

ok ye makes sense now after looking closely

[opaque token]

good luck with your essay m8

[harsh schooner]

thanks, only 2,5 pages of text left and some more layout stuff

[lapis jetty]

@opaque quartz

[harsh schooner]

ig ur running on coal?

[lapis jetty]

Yes

[harsh schooner]

check if your coal gens are consitently filled

[civic bronze]

It looks like you missed one bioburner somewhere

[lapis jetty]

The thing seems to have stopped saying capacity 405 so it may have just bugged out sloightly

[harsh schooner]

it looks like theres either not enough coal or water coming to some generators whcih lead to that drop down of potential power

[opaque quartz]

The difference in production and capacity is 40 MW, which is the power output of the two burners on the hub combined

[civic bronze]

30mw

[opaque quartz]

Standalone burners make 30 MW. The hub burners are 20 MW each

The wave pattern of your power means your coal gens are starving (either coal or water or both), so you need to troubleshoot that to get to a flat power graph

[lapis jetty]

I do need to fix that

Going to take ages to get there

[civic bronze]

The difference is 30mw tho, so theres one normal bio burner somewhere

[lapis jetty]

My grid has just shut itself down

That somehow fixed the dipping problem

also is it normal for power consumption to be so inconsistent

[thorn trail]

inconsistent power consumption in the early game usually means you have machines that are not running at full capacity, either due to lack of resources or filled output buffers

[civic bronze]

If you are not using awesome sink for overflow of your every factory, yes

[harsh schooner]

no steady supply of materials or full containers

[opaque quartz]

Oh my god how did I do that math wrong lol. Yeah one normal bio burner still attached somewhere

[silent charm]

this wont help me for long 🤣

[restive sparrow]

It kills me that the game doesn't write out 1,000MW as 1GW

Or does it switch at 10,000MW into 10GW or some such?

[wind spade]

it doesn't

but tons of people in this discord don't understand the concept of SI units, so I think it's to prevent confusion

(though it would be great addition that would actually teach people how SI system works 🙂 )

[restive sparrow]

Exactly. People know W into KW into MW. Hell people know KB into MB into GB! People will only know what they are exposed to.

[wind spade]

(a bit nitpicky, but it's kW not KW 😛 )

[deft lichen]

I've seen "KMW" too many times in here

[restive sparrow]

Look back at Back to the Future. Doc said it "jiggawatts" just because nothing in the world used that exponent much yet. Now gigs is a pretty commonly used term.

[restive sparrow]

Fair. I'm just typing on my phone 😖

[restive sparrow]

Oooooof

[wind spade]

yeah it's like once every 3 days a person comes

worst part of it is that like 50% of them are dead set on kMW being valid unit

[restive sparrow]

If we made SI units more common knowledge we might convince people to swap to metric, but probably not lol

[restive sparrow]

I'm torn in half here. On the one hand: the math works out. On the other hand: there's already a unit for that lol

But hey wtf is a MW anyways? You mean kkW?

[deft lichen]

GmW

[restive sparrow]

It's just k's all the way down

[wind spade]

SI system specifically forbids multiple prefixes

[restive sparrow]

Oh God. It's horrible. I love it.

[oblique hollow]

inchinches

inchfeet

[wind spade]

shoo

[restive sparrow]

Oh I know. I get what they're doing it's just bad lol

[deft lichen]

(the reasoning is that the point of the prefix is that there aren't multiple - I guess that allows for unit symbols to be deciphered more easily)

[restive sparrow]

Right the whole point is the prefix puts you exactly where you need to be

[wind spade]

yeah, especially if you have some compound unit, it would be hard to see what is prefix and what is the unit

[restive sparrow]

kmkmkmkmW. Now count the ks and the Ms to figure out where we are

[wind spade]

can't think of a conflict between SI prefix and SI unit now, but I'm sure there are some

I guess mili and meter are one

[restive sparrow]

Untrue micro is a mu

Oh you mean milli

[wind spade]

oh right mili

[restive sparrow]

mms is a thing for sure

[wind spade]

ffs

[restive sparrow]

I think it's just fair to assume the last letter is the unit

[wind spade]

well you have compound units

[outer vale]

femtofemtosecond?

[restive sparrow]

True

[wind spade]

e.g. watthour (Wh)

so the point is that only the first letter is prefix, anything else is unit

[restive sparrow]

Yeah that's more sensible

[queen lintel]

I tried fixing the factory model from yesterday

it's still messy but at least it should work in-game better than the previous 33k one

[outer vale]

have you considered a more readable tool what's the goal there?

[queen lintel]

making as many HMFs as possible using all ressources and a lot of sloops (basically creative mode, infinite sloops)

also for the readability, it's not the tool's problem, it's just a skill issue on my end lol

[thorn trail]

no, the tool itself produces unreadable output

[queen lintel]

?

[outer vale]

sadly Tools wouldn't be able to handle the slooping otherwise I'd recommend that

[thorn trail]

if you don't already know what the project is doing reading modelers diagrams is extremely painful and difficult

[queen lintel]

not if it's well made, which in this case it isn't lol

imo when it has less random machines scattered everywhere it's more readable

[wind spade]

readability is bad even if it's "well made"
very hard to see actual building and impossible to see the recipe

[queen lintel]

I think that the only problem is the grid being hard to align

[queen lintel]

I don't think it's that bad, and you can tell the recipe from the ingredients it needs

[wind spade]

yeah, for example bolted plates vs reinforced plates which need exactly same ingredients

[queen lintel]

oh yea I forgot about that one

[wind spade]

and not everyone has all recipes memorised

[queen lintel]

in that case it is hard

[queen lintel]

I don't

only the important ones like cast screws and diluted fuel

[harsh schooner]

what calculator is that? im only using the tools one

[queen lintel]

satisfactory modeler on Steam

[wind spade]

not really a calculator, more like "place all nodes by hand and it may do some math" kind of thing

[queen lintel]

yea

[harsh schooner]

hm alright

[queen lintel]

it's not very good at calculating xD

[harsh schooner]

ty tho, i still prefer the calc lol (calc is slang for calculator guys)

[queen lintel]

at least not with huge things like that

[wind spade]

calc is usually SCIM
Tools is not calc 😛

[queen lintel]

the only thing I really like about SF Modeler is that it's on Steam and it's easy to figure out

[wind spade]

isn't website even more accessible than a steam thing?

[queen lintel]

I don't think so

[wind spade]

like you only need a browser, can look it on phone or different OS or anywhere, as compared to "have to have steam installed and run it as app"

[queen lintel]

I just launch it along with SF and switch between the two when I need to

[wind spade]

how does that differ from "switch between browser and SF"?

[queen lintel]

idk

lol

[wind spade]

(legit question, I'm interested why people think this way, you're not the only one, but I don't really see the advantage)

[sturdy wyvern]

I think modeler is nice b/c you can you can do 'meet in the middle' planning more easily and use multiple different recipes at the same time and control the quantities

[queen lintel]

I constantly misclick when trying to go on my browser and launch Epic Games instead (SF is not on there for me* so it's useless) and with an app it goes on the right of my taskbar so if I misclick I either go back to SF or nothing happens

[wind spade]

SF is on Epic lol

it was on Epic before it was on steam

[queen lintel]

I said I don't have it on there

not that it doesn't exist on there

it's the only reason I even said that, it's on there, I just have it on Steam

[wind spade]

well "SF is not on there" kinda sounds like it doesn't exist there, but yeah, I get you 🙂

[queen lintel]

yea I edited my message

[wind spade]

and you can have browser window to be separate app afaik

[queen lintel]

I think but I'm too lazy to bother with cause I already have the modeler

[vapid gorge]

make part of the plan in another tab instead and it takes you 1/100th the time

[sturdy wyvern]

Yeah I hear you, I user Tools, Calc, Modeler, Spreadsheet, and Paper for factory planning. But when I'm exploring recipe chains its nice to be able to go step by step and explore routes. Currently, I use calc/tools to get a ballpark baseline and then fine tune in modeler or sheets before I build. Personally I like hunting for synergies that work well with even resource ratio breaks or scaling in multiples--- if you just want to make some arbitrary parts per minute without thinking a lot then by all means Modeler probably isn't the best tool.

[vapid gorge]

that's the only way I do things on tools.
you swap out recipes.
If you rely on having all the recipes ticked and letting the script do it's thing tha'ts on you.

[sturdy wyvern]

Ticking the recipes and recalculating is a bad user experience, and in some builds I use two recipes for the same thing production chain

[vapid gorge]

It's very easy to have full and total control with tools, swapping recipes in and out and seeing how synergy goes

[wind spade]

Ticking the recipes and recalculating is a bad user experience
what would you improve?

[vapid gorge]

and in those builds look at the differences between those two recipes, decide how much input you want of one and the other, and then just have an 'input' in the input tab for that product and keep going with your life.
still 1000x faster than modeler

everything you're describing is easily resolvable faster and more easily with tools with some basic methods

not even fancy tricks.

[sturdy wyvern]

@vapid gorge I understand what you're saying and I'm saying for me it's much easier to see the localized impact on a portion of the production chain in the modeler currently, @wind spade I think that's partially because when you're in tools and you change recipes and the whole chart regenerates, depending on the build that can be a lot of changes. On Tools specifically being able to go through the Items list and change recipes vs going to the recipes tab would be nice (local to the item, smaller list of options to go through), because UX wise going to the global recipes list which is sorted by name vs item produces is the UX taxing part for me.

If you're breaking into smaller parts on tabs like cobalt suggested, its also a bit hard to track the bigger picture impact. The part that clicks for me with modeler is being able to adjust the steps and allowing for a shortfall or discrepancy or overproduction at any given step to exist temporarily (or permanently) while I work out the plan. I could imagine a more focused recipe comparison mode on one screen vs flipping tabs (something I might do in spreadsheets currently) that I would get a lot of value out of. Where you would have your product and input settings set, and then in model A choose a set of recipes and model B choose a set of recipes and then see their graphs/items/building lists side by side to compare (can be done with two browser windows or flipping back and forth, but diff style +/- green and red highlighting on a table to table compare is the value I get out spreadsheets)

[wind spade]

the problem is that you're not choosing a recipe for given item, you're giving tools list of recipes you have available.

one way to solve this could be that if you click on an item, you can select a recipe that makes this item and it will disable all other recipes making that item - which brings tons of issues (e.g. Tools can decide to go completely different way and skip the item altogether). So while it could be added, it won't work like most people think (at least in some scenarios)

btw the global recipe list has a search box on top of it, which may be faster than finding the recipe you want by scrolling 🙂

[dreamy nimbus]

ehh, the feeling of knowing you kinda did the thing by yourself instead of using robots to make your life easier, makes the achievement more fulfilling I guess ?

[wind spade]

what do you mean by this? 🤔

[sturdy wyvern]

Super valid points! I didn't think about using for 'recipes I have available' because I'll go hard drive hunting for a better recipe-- and you're right, there is a search box, idk why I just don't like to use it. I will say, if I could search by product name vs recipe name I would probably use it more

[dreamy nimbus]

I literally couldn't be any more clearer

[wind spade]

the original question is "why is it is on Steam an advantage, when using an app is (at least in my opinion) harder and more limiting than just opening a website"

we weren't discussing "modeller over tools"

[sturdy wyvern]

I think Yosh is saying working out each step is part of the fun-- but yeah we're WAY off topic if that was the original question xD

[wind spade]

yeah that's planned for new tools, the search will be improved and centralised (so that there won't be two different search boxes)

there will be tons of improvements in new tools, so I'm kinda gathering feedback from people, hence why I'm asking. I'm hoping my real life stuff will calm down soon and I will be able to jump back onto new Tools development 🙂

[dreamy nimbus]

well, I guess some people MIGHT find it easier to search something off steam than the web

kinda weird ngl but that's people hey we're all different

maybe, yeah no there's no maybe, as a user of modeler, I don't care whether it's on steam or the web, I guess it would make me save 5s if it was on the web

[wind spade]

yeah, I was just asking why so many people consider "being on steam" advantage over "being available everywhere as a website". Again, research purposes 🙂

[sturdy wyvern]

my last two cents on the original topic -- I think website is more globally accessible for sure, but having an app is nice because I always have a million tabs open and there's a big 'digital noise cloud' in my browser that I don't want to think about and having an application dedicated to the task (which requires a lot of my brain ram anyway) feels good

[vapid gorge]

wait, are you saying you don't like using the most useful thing in inputing recipes?

[dreamy nimbus]

steam is limited by desktop, website is easier even though looking at a schem of a factory on phone is hard

[wind spade]

I guess if that's a problem you can set up a separate profile in the browser, it will then show up as different "app" in taskbar 🙂 at least with chrome, but I guess other browsers work similarly.

(but yeah, it's a workaround, not a solution - I do have plans to research possibility of having Tools as an app)

[dreamy nimbus]

also I kinda agree with bensonism as I too have always one million tabs open, I literally have like 10 pinned tabs that I always use, and generally have around 15 to 20

I guess it depends on the person, some people will never have more than 3 tabs open, I'll always have ALOT of them

so for me an app would be easier as I'd find it more easily

[wind spade]

don't ask me how many tabs across how many windows across my three screens I have open

[sturdy wyvern]

going to make a dedicated SF profile for myself right now. Also even a sloppy electron port would be neat :D

[wind spade]

yeah electron would be the way if I would do that

I'm not making a completely separate desktop app and dealing with 150 different build pipelines for every possible OS

[dreamy nimbus]

I have an idea for tools, make the colours entirely customisable, because the base colours are not very easy for me to read

[wind spade]

though if I did electron, I'd probably want it to work slightly better than just "embedded website"

probably something like offline mode and local file-saving/reading options at least. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to me to have it as a separate app 🤔

[wind spade]

yeah, configuration is something I want touch a lot in new tools. ideally make everything imaginable configurable, but I'll see how much I actually manage to sneak in

[wind spade]

at one point I had I think 11 different browser windows, each with average of like 15 tabs open. Mostly work-related, but still 🤔

[dreamy nimbus]

also easier readable tools, available to check buildings if you've built them or not etc...

Even add a notepad in it for steps for our factories

just tiny things but that can improve QoL by a lot

[wind spade]

also planned... in a way 🤔
don't want to say much about it, as I'm not sure if I will manage to do things I want, but there's definitely plan for more than just small QoL things 🙂

[opal locust]

Back to work more on my fuel plant. What if I only did 18 refineries initially for 540 oil > 720 HOR?

that simplifies all of the math.

then I can do 2 sets of 360 HOR into 12 refineries each to make 1440 fuel, divided 3 ways is 480 fuel, that go into 10 generators each(9 at 250% + 1 at 150%)

only makes 18GW instead of 20GW, but it makes my head hurt less figuring out the logistics.

[dreamy nimbus]

well, I hope everyone's problems will be resolved soon

[alpine steeple]

bro u using the tripling method? (add somersloops to make ur head hurt more)

[opal locust]

I don't know what you mean.

I'm just wondering if I should go through with this, or make the aluminum plant first and just use the blender version.

[wind spade]

honestly with blueprints the difference between DPF and DF is practically zero

[opal locust]

Yeah, but then I wouldn't have to deal with two sets of packagers complicating the process

[wind spade]

eh, again, with bluepirnts you don't really deal with them

you make a blueprint with one refinery and two packagers, loop the belt, put 20 canisters in it, save the blueprint and it basically functions as a blender

[opal locust]

Also 50 HOR per blender is a lot easier to figure out than 30 HOR per refinery when you're making 800 HOR

[wind spade]

that's where clock speed comes to play 🙂

[opal locust]

People were trying to explain the math to me earlier, but it just ended up with lopsided fuel generators

[dreamy nimbus]

at this point if you're dealing with a multiple of 30, use 810 HOR, easily divadable

[outer vale]

would require tapping 10 oil off another node

[dreamy nimbus]

810 / 30 = 81 / 3 = 9*3*3 / 3 / 9*3 = 27

[opal locust]

I can't get over 800 from a single pure oil node

[dreamy nimbus]

ehhh fiscit fix your game ngl

[outer vale]

in english?

800 HOR is fine

[dreamy nimbus]

you'll jusr have 20 HOR left with 26 blenders which make a last one at 66+2/3 %

[outer vale]

refineries*

[dreamy nimbus]

ehh buildable

[outer vale]

or just clock the DPF loop blueprint to 50/min and plonk down 16 of 'em

oh they're 40 by default not 60, 20 then no that's the packager it is 60

[wind spade]

wouldn't be exactly 50 but yeah

[outer vale]

think I'd know this, I'm using DPF right now...

incidentally I'm also using 600 oil into 800 HOR, but mine's all for plastic

[opal locust]

overclocking the DPF refineries to 150% would be 40 HOR and 80 packaged water/minute?

instead of 30/60?

[wind spade]

150% is 45/min

30*1.5 🙂

[opal locust]

133% then

[outer vale]

yeah 133.3334 % is close enough

[opal locust]

and since water extractors produce 120, that becomes a 2:3 ratio for the water extractors?

[tame obsidian]

each pipe system has 3 sets of 58 generator, so this is just one of those systems

wait I think i fixed it

[vapid gorge]

let us know 🙂 There's a couple steps I can think of but would want to see where the pipes are coming from and what teh whole layout is like

[tame obsidian]

the problem was i had 6 generators elevated above everything else, even though I had a pump i guess it was causing backflow

just removed it for now and it seems to work

[vapid gorge]

one of the things with fluids is within a manifold you do not want any elevation changes

it's a common killer

[tame obsidian]

changes at all? in one of the other systems I have a drop, does that also cause problems

[vapid gorge]

I'd have to see it.

one sec

[tame obsidian]

it's alr i don't feel like fixing rn so ill do it another time

[vapid gorge]

so the circle is the fluid output , squares are the inputs and manifold

[tame obsidian]

its been running for a bit and seems to work so i dont think it causes problems

[vapid gorge]

the yellow bit of the pipe? can do basically whatever you want and at worst, you might need a pump right before the manifold

once the manifold starts? keep the elevation

[tame obsidian]

i see

well i am definitely not doing that cuz halfway thru manifold it lwoers like 16 meters, but all of the generators have remained full for like an hour now

[vapid gorge]

there was a guy I was helping with his fuel set up that , even with a pipe loop in the manifold, we kept getting back flow
it wasn't until he sent me the file and I saw that some of hte fuel gens on one side were 0.5m higher up than the other. Worked fine after fixed that

[tame obsidian]

wow

well i definitely have enough power for the forseeable future

[vapid gorge]

that specific scenario could work . It's not an automatic killer, but it's something you want to avoid

[tame obsidian]

alr cool

[vapid gorge]

and it looks like it's still a bit wobbly in production, geo thermal?

[tame obsidian]

my old coal power plant / oil plant kind of sucked

and they're still on

[vapid gorge]

ah fair. Makes it harder to see if this one is contributing to it though

[tame obsidian]

yeah ill check

actually nah that is a lot of work to unpower everything

[vapid gorge]

fair xD

[tame obsidian]

if its causing problems ill check

[vapid gorge]

also as a thing, frequently if you have a flow issue past crude oil or fresh water you'll want a manifold loop, like this

if your manifold isn't very long or it's only like half of your pipe max, you may not need it, but this solves many issues

[tame obsidian]

alr cool

[opal locust]

I tried making a blueprint of packager > refinery > packager, but there's not enough space in a mk2 blueprint designer

[vapid gorge]

you can put them next to each other?

like packagers on the side

[opal locust]

That sounds even more cumbersome

[thorn trail]

i missed the discussion, what is the packager > refinery > packager for?

[vapid gorge]

packaged diluted fluid

[opal locust]

diluted packaged fuel setup to expand my power grid

[vapid gorge]

why? it's still one click

and could probably put packagers under neath? maybe with mk2, I haven't tried myself

[opal locust]

this is what I could come up with.

[dusky dust]

I fit mine in the mk1 blueprinter:

(kind of a wide shot there showing the full fuel gen + water extractor hookups as well, but it can fit nicely in a pretty contained square

[opal locust]

the more I try to do this the more I should just wait and do it with blenders instead

this is the frustration that made me quit Phase 4 before, and this is still the "easy" stuff

I don't know what to do.

I see the pieces, I just can't connect them.

Here's my power grid right now. I don't know if that's enough to get an aluminum factory up first.

[thorn trail]

my usual 1200/m aluminum factory uses 490 MW, so i don't see why you shouldn't be able to make it on what you have

plus you can always throw up a regular non-diluted fuel plant or even coal/geothermal to get you along till you get blenders if you are already in phase 4

[fallow siren]

aluminum setup is not power intensive as you think, they are very cheap in that regard

[livid turret]

Trust me, you can fit a complete loop of refinery, packager, unpacker and 2 overclocked generators to consume packaged diluted fuel to create 750 MW in a MK2 blueprint machine

[opal locust]

you can.

I've put 280 hours into Satisfactory and haven't touched the blueprint designer until today.

[livid turret]

You can too, use an iterative process or YouTube or Reddit

[remote flame]

For my early Diluted Packaged Fuel plant, I made up this design that is the same width as the refinery for super easy placement. This design works great because by lifting the fuel unpackager above the other packager, it's not just more compact fitting in to the Mk.2 Blueprint Designer , but also raises the output pipe higher so the 'headlift' starts a higher altitude above your machines, even further so you can make it the highest point in your pipe network too, most of the time no further pumps needed 🙂

The single machine is 60m^3/min, and the twin refinery/more fancy design is 200m^3/min with some sloops if I'm feeling lazy on placements 🙂

It also has two pipes on the back for looping the water and Heavy Oil Residue at the end of a 'row' just in case you don't want to see Cobalt paste that example pipe loop screenshot again

[opal locust]

Great, fantastic, excellent design. I'm not good enough to make that.

[remote flame]

It's all just inspiration for future blueprints, never would've built this myself if I didn't delve in to multiplayer and was asked to help out, just kept playing around till it all fit! Like gpedro said above I probably could jam in two generators in here as well, but I just decided to keep the BP producing fuel in multiples that work out to 600m^3/min so I can hook them all together, since Ive already made a x4 gen blueprint in the mk.2 designer 🙂

[vapid gorge]

replicate it. It would be pretty simple, you have the images there 🙂

[civic bronze]

i dread it but gonna have to start thinking about going nuclear

[vapid gorge]

nah it's easy. Use the base recipes

[vapid gorge]

the alt recipes get you a bunch more power but it's a lot more resources and steps, while the base recipes are fairly simple and will get you like 300gw if you use all of it

[civic bronze]

I dont think i wanna use all of it, just a node of uranium maybe, in case i screw something up

[white bloom]

Infused Uranium Cell and Uranium Fuel Unit are very good though. Just for the Uranium Waste recycling into Plutonium Rods for disposal I do suggest the base recipes.

[vapid gorge]

Nah , it's just like every other production cycle, you'll be fine. Make the rods someplace and move them to be burned

[vapid gorge]

yes, but I was suggesting base for simplicity, plus you can generally get more power than you'll ever need with the base

[vapid gorge]

also it's annoying to set up nuclear more than once

[civic bronze]

also got a question, if i wanna add a second train on the same line that one has, will both balance or do i have to time them?

one of my ISC gets empty so i was thinking to add second train, its somewhat longer route

hm what im also thinking is i could add second station at the input (and stone will be split between two) that will be for second train, but it will output in same station

[civic bronze]

ok just to test it out i kept adding a train when input platform had enough items to fill a wagon - got 4 trains on same route now, ill see how that goes - im just wondering if i will need to manually time them again when unspeakable happens - some train crashes and will stop every route - tho i dont think that's possible as im only using block signals (for now)

[remote flame]

So if you just want more throughput, you could get away with it by just using the same train currently going to the factory and add another carriage to it (hence another train platform), carrying the same resource to merge in to this container. It'll take longer to empty, hence you may not need any additional trains. That way you are keeping your rail network really clear and potentially doubling the amount of resources it transports each trip 🙂

With too many trains too frequently, because the platforms 'lock up' when loading/unloading a carriage, It could undermine your throughput on the station if visited before the station fully empties

[vapid kernel]

If i have multiple trains I set them to full load/unload

[civic bronze]

thank you, im gonna keep that in mind for later projects, as in this factory i think its too late to add 1:2 (or even 1:4) trains 😭 i do have one not used station tho, i built 6 and ended up using 5

[civic bronze]

ohhh i totally forgot about that

[civic bronze]

do you set "or wait for 15 seconds"? for 999?

[vapid kernel]

Yeah. I adjust the time to be something like 999

[fierce ruin]

i can already build this

i was like halfway through phase 3 when i did last time, and now i havent gotten past phase 2

crazy

[opaque quartz]

Not really a point in making a dedicated screw production line imo

You need some for early milestone unlocks and 200 to build an awesome shop. No other buildables use them

[harsh schooner]

yeah

ive did one as well and never rlly used it

used some iron rods in mid game and now ton of plates for power storages blueprints

[fierce ruin]

i only did it to make the numbers nice, although i'll try and see what i can do

oh thats interesting

[outer vale]

swap them out for some rods and plates maybe

[fierce ruin]

already done in my steel factory

[outer vale]

216 limestone, should've made your concrete there 😛

[fierce ruin]

where should i place a buildable that's underclocked in a manifold? the first or last input?

[magic dock]

Doesn't really matter, just make sure to give the last machine a bit of buffer material as you won't have any overflow for that one

[fierce ruin]

?

ohh

gotcha

[magic dock]

Although I do always place it last

Because if it gets a shortage somehow in the input, it will have the least amount of impact

Compared to one of 100% being idle

[fierce ruin]

if its first then it overflows quicker meaning it takes less time to have the manifold running

[magic dock]

Well for the first machine yeah

[wind spade]

The impact is the same no matter where the machine is

[wind spade]

Not sure if this is true

[viral sparrow]

you dont need stators for personal use btw

theyre only used as intermediates for other parts

[magic dock]

If the last one is underclocked (compared to the rest being 100%) and it being the only one idle it has less impact than when the last is running at 100%

[fierce ruin]

i swear they have a use for personal use

[viral sparrow]

they dont

[fierce ruin]

.

oh well, i'll leave it

[outer vale]

they used to be used for power storage

[viral sparrow]

you can always take those to another factory later on

like you could maybe use them for automated wiring idk

[fierce ruin]

well i do need to make automated wiring for the phase

so i might as well

[dusky dust]

I think there's a few crash sites which require Stators, which could maybe qualify

Though I think you technically find enough Stators at crash sites that you could just use those

[wind spade]

If you're missing 20/min, the whole manifold will make 20/min less. It's irrelevant where are low-clock machines put

[magic dock]

But if I have a manifold producing 31/min:
10 at 100% 3/min
1 at 33.3% 1/min

If that underclocked machine is the last one and idles I only miss 1/min, but if that last one is at 100% and idles I miss 3/min

Or am I bamboozling myself?

[thorn trail]

how much you missed is based on the amount of input material you are missing, not the order of the machines

[magic dock]

Yeah thats true, my example would mean different deficits of input for the same situation to occur

[thorn trail]

the only thing that changes is the shape of the power curve

[wind spade]

yes you are, because in the first situation you're missing 1/min, but in the second you're missing 3/min from the input

[magic dock]

Yeah got it, was disregarding that

But anyways, best case is to just not have any deficits at all :)

[rain lichen]

still nice to have some in storage, for SE parts (unless you're crazy and wanna fully automate those 😉)

[wind spade]

why would you be crazy for automating them? they are great sink point source

[dusky dust]

I have yet to do a playthrough where I didn't fully automate SE parts. Though I can make no defense as to my level of craziness or not. :D

[restive sparrow]

Which planner is this from? I rather like the concise format of the diagram.

[fierce ruin]

satisfactory tools

[harsh schooner]

not constant supply of cual / fuel to your gens

making the last to get cual / fuel to shut off and dont work anymore until theres enough cual / fuel again

[daring surge]

Do I need the packaged diluted fuel recipe to unlock diluted fuel (the blender one)

[opaque quartz]

No, the recipes are independent of each other

You do need the blender unlocked, obvs

[fierce ruin]

what can i do with this rock, how do i get rid of these type of things

[outer vale]

build over it

[polar thorn]

I’m so confused 🤔
2 belts mk4 input
1 mk4 output and a mk3

Yet the storage doesn’t fill up

[outer vale]

are those two belts actually saturated?

[polar thorn]

Yes it’s overclocked miner

[outer vale]

doesn't matter if they're mk4 if you're only sending say 60/min

either they're not producing 480 each, or something earlier is bottlenecking them

[polar thorn]

That infamous portion of belt I didn’t upgrade
Nvm

[fierce ruin]

what does this mean

[wind spade]

that MAM finished what you asked it to do

[fierce ruin]

oh okay

[nimble haven]

How does one go about making this look neater?

[dreamy nimbus]

walls ?

[nimble haven]

the conveyors

[high pier]

hours of agony

[nimble haven]

im tearing down my new build for a better looking on

[fierce ruin]

ehm, what are these 2 last items mean in cost and what is this last upgrade about

[nimble haven]

phase 5 for the middle

[fierce ruin]

wdym

im early game begineer noob so idk

[wind spade]

if you don't have that item, don't bother with it now

[nimble haven]

Ahhh

its later down the line

[high pier]

if ur new dw about it rn

[dreamy nimbus]

even though it's really basic items

[fierce ruin]

oh

[thorn trail]

The quartz crystals and power shards are early game, but the middle mystery item is phase 5

[nimble haven]

Like greeny said, if you dont have the item dont worry about it now.,

[dreamy nimbus]

is that stators and cables ?

[thorn trail]

Even if you unlock the synthetic power shards early by somehow finding the mystery item you wouldn't be able to build any due to lacking the machines necessary to do so IIRC

[dreamy nimbus]

brother as I said it's stators and cable and iirc there's only two crafts that uses power shards, ionised fuel and smth else

maybe the quantum processor

[nimble haven]

Is anyone in the phase of this game where you get on for like 5 minutes, do something smal then get off then do the same thing later

[dreamy nimbus]

no

I have around 200 hours and what I do is play and when want to do smth else a few hours later I do then come back etc...
I hated smth so I made a mod, other than that when I'll have every item automated I'll prob just quit (I was in the end game and started a new profile)

thus said, you're prob burnt out, lack of motiv to do anything, not captivating enough

[vapid gorge]

@wintry yoke ignore the jerks. what's your actual issue? trouble shooting in gen chat is usually not a great option

[wintry yoke]

everything is my issue, Effency making any items in mass quantity is horrible and slow

[vapid gorge]

sure ok , what tier have you gotten to?

[wintry yoke]

6

i think

either that or 5

[vapid gorge]

ah so fairly up there.
another quick question
do you see yourself being finished with the game after all the phases or will you treat it liek a sand box and do your own projects?

[wintry yoke]

i always do the story, then Sandbox it after

[vapid gorge]

ok then! Cause the answer was teh same for both options 🙂

Treat this like a long tutorial. The milestones are guide points to get experience

Don't stress too hard about efficiency because whatever you build now won't fit your factories needs later anyway

Some people restart with fresh maps, get more practice at layouts and logistics, some just delete everythign on the map because they don't want to go up tech tiers again... mostly up to you

just plug along, learn from 'mistakes', and get that practice in 🙂

that's my advice anyway. It's general, but you have a 'general' issue.

and yeah satisfactory tools is just generally better like they were saying in other chat. https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/

the map in SCIM is great though

if you have a specific issue or hurdle you're trying to solve happy to give some advice too 🙂

[wintry yoke]

Im on phase 4

[vapid gorge]

cool 🙂 you might find that a fresh map after the first run through might work for you. Maybe not. Everyone is dif

[frosty whale]

Hi, I'm gonna have a headhache because of my math problem 😂, I really need help about how I have to parameter my Iron Rod's Constructors in game.
I'm in "early game", I unlock recently the 2nd phase of my orbital elevator, and want to automate Smart Plating and Reinforced Plates (for Mk.2 Conveyors) at the same time.

Is there any simpler method to do that?

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production?share=XCPaoZNhMylCn56da7XM

[vapid gorge]

define 'simpler'?

like... this is a single resource chain which is pretty simple.
you coudl have cast screws? skip the rod step

or iron wire + stitched plate?

personally I don't bother with dedicated builds for going up the tiers though

[frosty whale]

I only have the Iron Wires this time, I don't have the alternate recipe of screws

[vapid gorge]

then this sounds like the 'simplest' way given your options 🙂

personally I just funnel over flow to new production materials.
like, if you're already making rotors and RIPs I'd just branch the belts and have an extra feed, let items build up over time

[frosty whale]

I don't actually know how to separate my over production to make new materials.

And my friends want to store even Ingots '-' like what?

[wind spade]

figure out what you want to produce and how much
calculate how much ore you need
find a place that has the ore you need
build factory
ship product to storage or depot
repeat

[frosty whale]

Easy to say but hard to do, as I always say 😭

[wind spade]

what's hard about it?