#math-and-meta

1 messages · Page 232 of 1

velvet venture
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supposed to have 7800 smh

prisma kraken
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what i've taken to doing is splitting whatever i'm transfering evenly btw 4 cars

copper seal
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you can't load 7800 into a single cart tho

tidal dock
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do you have an industrial box as buffer between your miner and the station?

velvet venture
copper seal
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a single cart can only take 3200 lol

prisma kraken
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oft times, i'm going to be splitting it into 4 on the output side anyway

copper seal
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ye

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so you need 3 carts

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and then you'll arrive at some sum of all freight platforms together that says 1200 items/minute

velvet venture
copper seal
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no

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4 rows of 8

prisma kraken
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train cars are 32 stacks, platforms hold 48

copper seal
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so 32 stacks

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so if you're trying to move 7800 then you need 7800 / 3200 = 2.43 carts

prisma kraken
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or trains

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whether it is multiple carraiges on the same train or multiple trains is a choice

copper seal
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i've been thinking of adding more locomotives to mine, its just one in the front and one in that back but i want that baby to be zoomin

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oh you meant actual trains

prisma kraken
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yeah

copper seal
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well if you're using multiple trains you need 2 tracks and also a U turn atleast

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or a roundabout

prisma kraken
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yeah, too much space, lol

velvet venture
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great for the 8 resources I am moving, I need 4 extra carts

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btw what about fluids

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how much does a train cart hold?

prisma kraken
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i just standardize on a 4 cargo car size and build uniformly to that size

copper seal
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i haven't unlocked fluid cart yet but in... update 7? it was considered dookie

prisma kraken
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1600 m^3 - half what you'd get with it packaged

copper seal
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yeah, packed fuel was just better

amber umbra
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I do the 1-4 train standard size. Then feed them 1, 2, or 4 belts.

velvet venture
copper seal
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yep

prisma kraken
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it is sufficient for where you should find use for it. don't use fluid trains for stupid stuff 🙂

copper seal
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i think fluid carts have always been considered pretty bad and they've never made an effort to make them better

spice radish
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it was on the wiki

copper seal
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but on the other hand, i do kinda like having trains look differently instead of just 50x the same setup lol

prisma kraken
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yeah, i like having the fluid cars on the rails for the asthetic

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but they're really not very good

velvet venture
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I need 1 cart each for 2 of the resources and 2 extra carts for bauxite

I made a simple back and forth line train.

So would it be easier to add 4 stations, or a return track to loop it and add 2 more trains

fringe seal
spice radish
fringe seal
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that's the wrong / outdated wiki

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this is the official one
https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Miner

Official Satisfactory Wiki
Miner

A Miner is a type of resource extractor that automatically extracts solid resources when built or placed on top of a Resource Node. There are 4 types of miners available: Portable Miner, Miner Mk.1, Miner Mk.2 and Miner Mk.3.
Portable Miner (see below) is an equipment that has to be held in the hand...

spice radish
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thanks

copper seal
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okay enough satisfactory for today

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getting off my 10hr shift

keen moss
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I'M. GONNA. USE. EVERY. SINGLE. RECIPE.

50FAA3C1-ADF4-41C0-BFF3-0361E8D657CB.png
spice radish
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ok

keen moss
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im starting to question satisfactory's concept of "loop"

image.png 5AAF836A-F8A7-48D5-B641-1B761CE9EAD0.png
vapid gorge
keen moss
vapid gorge
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sounds like a loop then

keen moss
spare jolt
brisk smelt
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this intersection shouldn't be broken, should it

image.png
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the train is just not reserving paths

keen moss
brisk smelt
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should i just band-aid it with blkock sigs

vapid gorge
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i wouldn't be at all surprised if it was broken

brisk smelt
vapid gorge
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they are probably more neatly done, rails in the game really don't like things like this

image.png
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if this is someone else's megaprint you should probably comment it's broken on whatever share space you found it on

wraith timber
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what automated processes need alclad aluminum sheets? I know we need em for belts and a couple buildables but are there any really good recipes that need them for automation?

vapid gorge
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!wikisearch alclad

brisk shoreBOT
vapid gorge
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praise the wiki, love the wiki

wraith timber
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lately the wiki has been out of date for me. It does not seem to have all the alt recipes

brisk smelt
vapid gorge
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rails never liked that sort of thing.
one of the big reasons to avoid pasting other people's things into your world. They are often badly made

wraith timber
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(or I was searching badly...this is possible)

brisk smelt
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i find rail megarints nice, they are really insufferable to build

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after like 4-5 playthroughs

prisma kraken
vapid gorge
vapid gorge
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especially if you don't do curvy stuff

prisma kraken
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yeah, the default heatsink recipe too, but that recipe is icky 😛

wraith timber
wraith timber
prisma kraken
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alt for which?

vapid gorge
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yeah? mentioned that there's casing recipes for both heat sinks and batteries just above

wraith timber
prisma kraken
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if you're making batteries, i'd suggest making them with alclad sheets in a manufacturer instead of the recipe that uses casings with a recycling output in a blender

wraith timber
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sorry my brain is in 4 places at once right now.

vapid gorge
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ah those are a thing, yeah nm you'll need to auto them for those I guess

brisk smelt
prisma kraken
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no only one recipe for superoscs

wraith timber
vapid gorge
prisma kraken
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you're really not going to be needing a lot of t9 stuff

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like a machine or two's worth of production is enough to 'win'

vapid gorge
wraith timber
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if I need to bring copper anyway should I bring enough to make casings with it too?

prisma kraken
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there's really no way around needing to bring copper and bauxite together somehow

wraith timber
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basically "if you cant beat em join em" lol

copper seal
vapid gorge
copper seal
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you may keep being a Mk2 pipe apologist, even though they're still fucked, you can make them work =|

wraith timber
prisma kraken
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what you can do is selectively build aluminum products that need copper in places that have it and make things that don't need copper in pink forest

vapid gorge
prisma kraken
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titan forest and the swamp both have some copper

copper seal
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actually, i have to go back to my fuel generators and change some stuff

prisma kraken
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there's also a sort of squirreled away set of impure copper nodes in dangle spires that you can somehow belt up into pink forest

copper seal
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cause i was expecting it to fail i had 3 different pipings all trying to fix it and see which one works best

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looping back from last fuel gen to first fuel gen, from last fuel gen to first refinery, and just using Mk1 pipes

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all 3 worked lol

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so now i have to go and fix it for visual consistency xd

prisma kraken
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give it a bit of burn in to see if any new problems manifest

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(and at least do a save & reload as part of your testing)

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@vapid gorge zero problems with all 3 modules - been running for most of the day now

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wraith timber
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what is that module for?

prisma kraken
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aluminuminum

wraith timber
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ahh gotcha. I wanna do the one that uses the blender

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Im pretty excited about trying it out

prisma kraken
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it is kind of nice except for adding another ingredient to an aluminum factory which already needs coal or coke, copper, water and rubber, lol

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and possibly nitrogen, iron plate, fuel, etc

wraith timber
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yea but it also sorta (for me at least) simplifies it

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plus last time I did this I used refineries soooo much! lol

I think I wanna go at this playthrough with lots of blenders

prisma kraken
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there's enough sulfur around now that you don't have to set asside a bunch for nuclear and turbofuel, which meant you had to sacrifice use of that recipe

wraith timber
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the calculations of how much of the raw mats of everything I am going to need is getting....hard lol

prisma kraken
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yeah, i really need a better tool for it all

wraith timber
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also just got my hands on rocket fuel....and still trying to finish my steel plant...and...and....and

prisma kraken
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what i've been using is runesun's planner which works to a point, but really what i need is something that calculates basic rates for every item and then lets me pull stuff out of that as a todo list and group what i want to build into a sort of factory view

wraith timber
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noramlly I just use excel but its like "I need to figure out how much of X end part I need before I can figure out Y raw part but I dont know how much of X I need!"

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with steel stuff felt like I could just pic a semi large number like "50 HMF/min" or something and work from there but its so hard to tell with these super high end parts

prisma kraken
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what i'm working from is this:

image.png
wraith timber
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oh nice!

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I like that

prisma kraken
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and when i'm designing factories, i have a second 'project' that has things like this

image.png
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and the tool doesn't have a way to make one thing aware of what's in another

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which is what i really want

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not sure if i'm explaining that very well

wraith timber
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I think I get what you mean

prisma kraken
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its like if you were using sftools, and looked at the big burly graph view of everything for a goal, i want to draw circles around pieces of it and say 'this is a factory', now let me drill into that and tweak stuff in that box

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i don't think there's anything really available that has that sort of workflow

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it has taken me a long time to figure out that that is what i actually really would like out of a tool

wraith timber
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that would be quite nice to have!

prisma kraken
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i really do like runesun's tool when i'm designing individual factories, this is pretty much the interface it provides

image.png
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which is great, you can configure the clock speeds and machine counts and it is something to work from as you are laying out the floorplan

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it isn't just some box with lines saying '22.22222 refineries' lol

wraith timber
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ohh thank you!

prisma kraken
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np

lime yew
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yall ever get bored and build an absolute monstrosity of a factory just to make 62.5 computers per minute? or is that just me... well either way here's the break down

Computers 62.5 ppm

Plastic 1,000 ppm
500 Heavy Oil Residue
Cable 500 ppm
1,000 Wire
Circuit Board 250 ppm
2,000 Petroleum coke
1,000 Rubber

@muted galleon @quiet breach are crazy for wanting to help but they did

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muted galleon
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yessir

quiet breach
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It said no

lime yew
quiet breach
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There you go. Plan and schematic review ? 😂

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This World Series game has me minutes away from stroking out 😂

brisk glen
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Is my math correct that 3k rocket fuel will give me 180k MW?

naive pumice
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3000/4.166666=720 fuel generators at 250MW each, therefore producing 180K MW.

brisk glen
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so probably worth upgrading my 60k ish MW turbo fuel plant to that huh

naive pumice
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Not a bad idea, it'll just take a little while to place all the generators. I've done it myself, it's worth it. Very big, very grand, very cool.

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It's honestly wayyyyyyyyy easier than trying to do nuclear, and it only costs you slightly more sulfur and coal per MW. But nothing compared to the complexity and resource cost of nuclear.

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I've just done the maths myself and currently trying to do some wacky simultaneous equations for optimal sulfur.

brisk glen
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My current turbo fuel plant is fluctuating in power too much (becuase i fucked up my pipes), so i kinda wanna tear everything out and start with that, using the nitro rocket fuel alt (giving up on 45kMW)

naive pumice
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Nitro rocket fuel is super simple to setup, that's what I currently have running. Just sink the extra compacted coal. (I'm currently working on a solution to improve this "loss").

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600 crude oil - - > 800 Heavy Oil Residue - - > 1600 diluted fuel - - > 1800 rocket fuel - - > 432 generators - - > 108,000MW

brisk glen
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Yea im gonna do this probably

image.png
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I'm currently bringing in 750 crude and all the sulfur i'd need if i upgrade my miners to mk 3

naive pumice
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Yep, same ratios, more crude oil

brisk glen
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That's a project for tomorrow then, didn't notice it was 5am XD

naive pumice
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I yoinked 600 HOR byproduct from my Tier 8 automation factory and skipped the crude oil part. But it's very fun to do rocket fuel.

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Make sure to package some of it for jetpack and maybe drone fuel. I got tired placing so many generators so I turned the excess 266.6 rocket fuel into packaged rocket fuel.

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It also made my generator grid symmetrical. Win win.

brisk glen
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lmaoo

naive pumice
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I have a bit of a question.
In terms of rocket fuel I'm interested to utilize turbo blend fuel and also turbo fuel and then turn that into rocket fuel.
This is so that I can utilize the compacted coal from the rocket fuel to power the basic turbofuel recipe... Which also produces rocket fuel.
I was originally using nitro rocket fuel instead, but it's a lot more sulfur intensive (and I don't really care about the coal).
So my question is, what ratio of turbo blend fuel to turbofuel do I need to completely remove the compacted coal from the turbofuel line. If I had an excel spreadsheet on hand I could probably do it, but I'm stuck at work.

prisma kraken
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you can't

spare jolt
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phase 2 in 28 hours. would've been faster if I didn't have to rebuild my coal plant

image.png
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yet i didn't finish all my current milestones yet

prisma kraken
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no set of recipes break even on the sulfur

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blended tf is the most sulfur efficient way to make tf & rf, but it doesn't use compacted coal, so you can't feed the byproduct back in to reduce the cost further

naive pumice
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Using the turbo blend recipe to make the basic rocket fuel recipe which produces a byproduct of compacted coal, I was hoping to plug this compacted coal into a seperate turbofuel recipe to turn back into rocket fuel, and by doing so, fully utilize the compacted coal instead of sinking it or tossing it into coal generators.

prisma kraken
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yeah, you can always do that, but there's no break even with it, so you might as well treat that as a separate standalone factory/process that takes the CC as input

naive pumice
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But doing this means you're now producing more rocket fuel which means you have an excess of compacted coal. I was seeing how I could balance this to not have any byproduct at all.

naive pumice
prisma kraken
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your options with the ccoal are coal generator, compacted steel (and a lot of it!), turbofuel & turbodiamond

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personally, i think just eating the inefficiency of heavy turbofuel and use it for turbodiamond may be the best use of it

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i'd find the compacted steel option much more compelling if the balance changes hadn't made HMF's so much cheaper

naive pumice
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Hmmmm, honestly not a bad idea. I might still try and solve the math problem, but without access to my PC and an excel spreadsheet I can't do the simultaneous equations to find the breakeven point.

prisma kraken
naive pumice
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I'll give it a shot.

prisma kraken
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it got both nerfed and buffed in 1.0

naive pumice
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Always fun. I use solid steel ingots nowadays.

prisma kraken
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you need a ridonkulous number of foundries for it now, but it makes 2x iron->steel and 4x ccoal->steel

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so for the 450 ccoal you get from going all the way to ion fuel, you can make 1800 steel on the side

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that's pretty nuts

naive pumice
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Power is not a factor when I build factories. I overcompensate on power so it becomes a non issue.

prisma kraken
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plus we're talking about rf byproduct, lol

naive pumice
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True.
I haven't touched ion fuel. I saw the powershard recipe and noped out. I have other uses for my SAM, and I build power on a mass scale.

prisma kraken
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yeah, the point of the synth shard recipe is to be a dm generator though

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it allows you to make dm crystal for other t9 stuff using essentially coal & quartz

unborn dome
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I'm doing the diluted fuel -> recycled plastic/rubber loop. Would it be ill-advised to sushibelt the plastic/rubber output and use a smart splitter to fire them back out into their respective sides for further recycling?

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amber umbra
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Nice comparison of the RF options. I was curious for the turbo blend fuel comparison since I hadn’t ran the math on it.

IMG_8919.png
prisma kraken
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i've done so in the past and it works. now after a lot of time in the game, i build it all so there's a single overflow splitter on the rubber/plastic that gets made in excess BEFORE it feeds in to the other side of the loop - saves some smart splitters, which as you build each take extra computational cost (especially on high-volume belts)

unborn dome
naive pumice
prisma kraken
unborn dome
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Like, left would sent rubber to become plastic, right would send plastic to become rubber, and then both overflow to center to be the factory's output?

prisma kraken
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i can show you how i belt it if it would help?

unborn dome
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Sure

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I've been staring at this blank spot on my oil rig platform for days trying to figure out how I'd belt it lol

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Before finally realizing maybe the outputs could be sushi'd

prisma kraken
unborn dome
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Nice, that's super helpful. Thanks!

prisma kraken
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that is mirrored on the other unlabeled side, altogether the rig processes 300 crude -> 900 rubber. If you're doing it for plastic, it is exactly the same, but you have 4 refieries for plastic & 2 for rubber instead

unborn dome
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So when you say overflow splitter prioritizes plastic, the down-facing output is an overflow, and the up-facing output is a normal output?

prisma kraken
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yep, so it backs up in the plastic refineries, and then overflows out to a train station

unborn dome
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Yeah this setup is actually two completely-isolated mirrored setups, turning 240 oil into 240 of plastic/rubber/fuel, so 480 total.

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So you don't sushi the plastic and rubber together anymore?

prisma kraken
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no reason to

unborn dome
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My main issue is space contraints here, unless I duck them all under with conveyor holes for further routing.

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prisma kraken
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the point of sushi is to simplify belting

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i think i've already accomplished that 😉

unborn dome
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Yeah the not-sushi solution seems pretty easy too

prisma kraken
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you can definitely loop it all around and overflow out, but i think it a better design to take the intermediate product and just route it to the place it should go

unborn dome
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Just means I need to figure out the nicest way to fit two belts in that output row

prisma kraken
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if you're doing something sort of bizzare and wishing to overflow out both plastic & rubber, you might find a mixed belt easier, idk

unborn dome
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Yeah the idea is to get 240 each of plastic and rubber out of here

prisma kraken
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this is what happens when you try to make your build fit the bpm instead of make the bpm fit your build 🙂

unborn dome
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So I've been staring at that looping bit trying to figure out how to squeeze this in

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I figure I have two pure oil nodes, I'm gonna use the whole node 😂

prisma kraken
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personally, i'd just stick an oveflow splitter here

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or anywhere along that belt

unborn dome
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Btw what's the B in bpm?

vapid gorge
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beats. Beats per minute

unborn dome
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Yeah that's the acronym I knew, but I wasn't sure what a beat was in Satisfactory 😅

prisma kraken
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blueprint

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BluePrintMachine

unborn dome
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Ah lol

prisma kraken
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unnessaray photo of the entire build

image.png
unborn dome
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Nice, separate trains for plastic, rubber, fuel?

prisma kraken
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rubber plastic & coke

unborn dome
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Hmm I neglected to add coke to this build, since I designed it before I knew that'd be handy for aluminum

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Maybe I can figure out a way to stack it on top...

unborn dome
prisma kraken
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the far module is a little whacky of a design... its eating resin output from my tf/rf plant

image.png
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3600 rubber, 900 plastic, 960 coke, 1200 tf

unborn dome
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Guessing you're using a lot of rubber alts

prisma kraken
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yeah, well, yeah, lol

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i honestly don't have it all accounted for yet

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what i do know is that rubber use will end up somewhere around 6000/min, so it doesn't really matter, there will be more later, lol

unborn dome
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Wow, what are you anticipating needing that much for?

prisma kraken
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everything, lol

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heatsinks are a big one, modular engines & vers frameworks eat a bit, oscillators eat a lot

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adhered plate, it all adds up

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oh, and rubber concrete too

unborn dome
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Hmm, yeah, I was thinking I'd need a ton of plastic for computers too, but then there are alts that remove the plastic need from those

prisma kraken
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already burning 960/min on concrete, lol

unborn dome
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Rubber concrete rather than wet concrete?

prisma kraken
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yeah, i'm using almost 4000/min in making hmf's

unborn dome
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That's a lot of HMF

prisma kraken
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yup

unborn dome
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My HMF factory only took two wet concrete refineries, and that's with encased steel pipes and encased heavy frame

prisma kraken
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yeah, well, 90/min

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i used molded pipe as well

unborn dome
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I had debated using that one, but my poor normal limestone node near the HMF factory couldn't take anymore

prisma kraken
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yeah, it stretches the coal out farther. if you're making hmf's it means tapping 1 instead of 2 biomes for steel

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i started in grass fields, so when i got to the coal in blue crater, i wanted to maximize what i was using it for

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that meant rounding up a lot of limestone and making some rubber 🙂

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very happy to be done with it, was a very big project

unborn dome
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Yeah I guess there's not a ton of coal in the grassy fields area. Also the stuff in the waterfall crater to the west of the start there.

prisma kraken
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yeah, that coal is going to coal power, i'm using all of the coal there for 12gw

topaz jetty
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Your gonna need that for diamonds later

prisma kraken
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i build 64 generators early in the game and then just clock them up to 250 as belt and miners allow

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there's plenty of other coal on the map

topaz jetty
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True true but the more diamonds you have the better later

prisma kraken
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yeah, well, i've already finished the game, i'm just building at this point

topaz jetty
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And the conversion rate is terrible without alts

prisma kraken
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the conversion rate is terrible even with alts 😛

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it honestly is a problem i haven't given a lot of thought to handling yet

topaz jetty
prisma kraken
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my thought is i'll use a lot of this coal for them, along with the pink forest coal and some of the spire coast oil

image.png
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i'm pretty much resigned to the fact that ill be running rails all the way around the map to round up copper, what's the big deal with slapping some miners and particle accelerators along the way?

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i don't mean to sound flippant about it all, its just not something that i'm really that worried about

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what i am worried about is limestone. having enough concrete makes me loose sleep

elder frost
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1800 crude to rocket fuel sounds like an interesting math problem

prisma kraken
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makes 4000 rf with blended tf

elder frost
prisma kraken
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i know some of the math off the top of my head

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300 oil can make 800 dilluted fuel

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900 oil + 600 sulfur is 1200 blended turbofuel

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that can be converted into 2000 rocket fuel with the addition of 200 nitric acid

vast jungle
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how many sloops do you need for the doubling in the end? 😉

prisma kraken
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for default turbofuel, you use less oil but more sulfur for comparable yield

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with default rf, that 2000 rf can be made in a total of 8 blenders, so 32?

elder frost
prisma kraken
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the recipes don't really work that way

vast jungle
prisma kraken
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i mean, it is kind of a gratuitous waste of sloops, 2000 rf is alread 120gw, lol

elder frost
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not gonna bother slooping the power plant

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power sharding the gens on the other hand xD

prisma kraken
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that doesn't make more/less power, just changes the number of gens you need to burn the fuel

elder frost
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im aware

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less gens less pipes less BS >.>

vast jungle
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and less Gens means you need to build less Gens! 😉

prisma kraken
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i'm kind of loath to use sloops to make any sort of fuel, if you need them for something else, you kind of have to redo your power plant, lol

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well saves on concrete too 😛

elder frost
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my math doesnt seem to work >.<

vast jungle
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I wonder if its feasible to BP the whole rocket production in 2/3 BPs for each "module"... not sure if you can make the output of a module small enough that its not a complete waste of space ^^

past reef
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I can do 4 bp on one floor for 360 RF per min

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On normal rocket fuel with looped back compacted coal

vast jungle
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MK2 or MK3 BP?

past reef
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Mk2, havent tried any mk3

vast jungle
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with or without OC? (just trying to look more into the numbers)

past reef
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Precise clock so that waste space slightly, did OC

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Had to use external nitric acid line but it's reasonable to make it outside of the RF place anyways

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I can grab the layout from SCIM but at least an hour later

vast jungle
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don't worry about layout, I am just looking into the numbers... I definitely will (if I go this way) make the BPs myself

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thats the main fun of SF 1.0 for me ^^

past reef
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Makes sense yeah, input was 148.5 oil, only bad number on the water extractor

vast jungle
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I think 300 RF might also be an interesting number...

past reef
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I calc'd for 14 modules of those to use nearly 1.2k sulfur pm

elder frost
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im missing something in my math here.

past reef
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What math are you doing though

elder frost
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had a miskey in the HOR VS Crude value

elder frost
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so 4000 rocket fuel (and 1100 Poly Resin)
can be done with 1650 Crude, 950 Sulfur, 400 nitric, 1233.3 water

warm blade
prisma kraken
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i'm off to sleep, tc

past reef
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Oh, Im on phone now, but my ratio was 148.5 oil 85.5 sulfur to 360 RF iirc, sounds right

elder frost
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absolute crude usage closest i can get is for the same crude you pull about 4350 RF

past reef
#

If you do the setup be absolutely sure to sloop the fuel blender until it backs up

elder frost
#

with 1033 Sulfur input

#

the ratios get really gross tbh

past reef
#

you can get the coal into a foundry tower for a bunch of steel to help other recipes, but I prefer looped back system its more fun to make it wor

#

Yeah you pretty much have to make the RF divisible by 9 to keep okay number

#

Reason why I make 360 RF for each module

#

Water extractor got gross if I put 1 per module but I can live with it

unborn ermine
#

Once you have a BP for fuel gens, the only pain is properly piping that gas somewhere.
legit easiest its been for me since they released. jacelul

past reef
#

Mk2 bp is life changing

#

You can even get all them pipes to all 4 fuel gen with mk2 bp if you're willing to crime

unborn ermine
#

I did a layer where I only needed to add a few pipes to make a sideways loop for gasses.

#

One thing though is I have to add some RF to my system while I remove some garbage pipe junctions I forgot I kept in.
I changed the orientation of my pipes so it was a mistake in post. snuttcry

#

Works, just things that dont need to be there.

vast jungle
frosty owl
plain fossil
#

whats the benefit of molded steel

swift robin
#

costs less steel

plain fossil
#

how much better than standard

swift robin
#

also higher production rate

plain fossil
#

cool cool

swift robin
#

there is invariably more limestone around than you need so it's a pretty good use for it

plain fossil
#

oh yeah double steel for triple beams

swift robin
#

and 45 beams/min is pretty great from one machine @ 100%

#

you can make a whole lotta screws with that heheh

copper seal
#

so people were talking about how conveyor lifts slow down belts yesterday

#

they're somewhat right, but it only happens with floorholes on 1m floors

astral warren
#

Yeah that's what I saw today too

#

And I know for a fact I have those at some factories in my world but I don't remember which 💀

copper seal
#

i think it was @fossil sand who said it

#

@amber jacinth was in the convo too but he said it didn't happen

astral warren
#

Do we know if there's a threshold you can reach before it starts decreasing your throughput, or does it always decrease it?

copper seal
#

so i guess i gotta replace them with 2m foundations for the time being

astral warren
#

I have a 600/min belt going through a 1m hole here and idk if it's being slowed down or not

copper seal
#

i don't know

#

the guy i linked was using mk5's i think

fossil sand
#

I said I heard it, but if it’s just 1ms that are bugged that’s cool

copper seal
#

it seems its getting deleted

astral warren
#

😭

copper seal
#

so yea you could be putting 240 in but only 239 will come out

#

and that happens every time a belt goes through a 1m floorhole

astral warren
#

Actually I think I might've partially discovered this ages ago

#

Because I noticed that the elevators were misaligned with my floor holes like 2 weeks ago but thought it was just a visual glitch

copper seal
#

so, say, 240 iron ore could turn into 239 ingots could then turn into 238 ingots once it arrives at the constructors the floor above

#

i wonder if it also happens with low density items like, idk, motors for example

astral warren
copper seal
#

because if it starts deleting motors

#

then its undoing like dozens of ingots

astral warren
#

Looks like the elevator's mesh is getting moved down another meter as if it snapped to a 2m hole or something

#

Which is probably killing the items somehow

copper seal
#

ye but i don't see why that would delete items

astral warren
#

Yeah idk either, maybe it's just a completely different bug but who knows

copper seal
#

he looped it around and just added 500 concrete

#

the more holes he created the more often items were getting deleted

#

but again im wondering if its happening to only the high density items or if it starts deleting stuff you build in constructors / assemblers / manufacturers

#

elevator parts etc.

astral warren
#

I don't intend to find out lol

#

Just gonna steer clear of 1m holes for now

#

And probably conduct a search & destroy operation on my factories that have them

copper seal
#

imagine someone who has hundreds of floor holes through 1m foundations

#

and his phase 9 elevator parts are getting deleted xd

#

howmany resources are getting deleted every time haha

#

ye same, i'll just replace them with 2m for now until its fixed

#

but yeah, the guy in the vid i posted lost 250 concrete in like 3 minutes

#

idk if the conveyor speed affects it though

#

go to 3:06

edgy leaf
#

items are getting deleted?

#

oof, imagine u put sloops in there

copper seal
#

seems to be the case

unborn ermine
#

Its an empty container feeding into an almost empty container

#

its not deleting jacelul

#

The containers can have whatever storage because they always throw out what the belt can put out.

edgy leaf
#

wdym?

unborn ermine
#

Unless im like, super misinterpreting

edgy leaf
#

idk, im using 1 meter floor holes all over the place, hundreds of them, and i have perfect throughput

#

100% uptime on all my machines

unborn ermine
#

I would have to see his stream where he set it up to be sure, but I am FAR too lazy for that jacelul

#

Same for me, but it seems sneaky snuttstare

#

At least if its not detrimental you can always (unless its NEEDED for compactness) use a false floor hole for looks.

#

Sucks though if its the way it is, I love doing compact 1m lift filled areas.

past reef
#

I only use 2m floor because that's as high as a splitter, would suck if the more lean 1m has the issue

unborn ermine
#

Also yeah 100% its a thing with the 1m floorholes snuttcry

unborn ermine
copper seal
#

ah thats good... i guess?

#

its still slowing down though, by a not insignifcant amount

#

but i feel like i would've noticed this myself if it was slowing down as much as it did for the guy who made the vid? so i guess faster belts make the issue worse?

unborn ermine
#

This is mk5, it wiggles for a bit then increases

copper seal
#

i think he said lag also had some effect

unborn ermine
#

Heres a time stamp comparison jacelul

image.png
#

in the time I posted its went up by this

copper seal
#

ye

#

i think i'll test it with different belts myself

unborn ermine
#

So yeah thats ~26.5/min loss on my save snuttstare

copper seal
#

he was losing like 50/min but he had a big factory near him

#

like 20 full belts and assemblers making 600 heavy mod frames or something like that

noble goblet
#

and I just started loving building with floor holes...

copper seal
#

its entirely possible its lag related

unborn ermine
#

So I think unless its a long, looooong term bug, best to just build to near capacity but never over it, and use false floorholes if you really want them for the mean time.

copper seal
#

so if you just replace them with 2m foundations until they fix it

#

(if they even can)

#

you should be fine

#

just to be sure i'd redo the floor hole + the foundation + the elevator

astral warren
unborn ermine
#

Same, I started to not trust floor holes ever since fluids jacelul
and some times, they just arent needed if you decide to bypass like 5 foundations

copper seal
#

anyways i just mentioned it because people were talking about it yesterday and the vid popped up on my feed and was only like a day old with not many views and not a big utoober

#

i hope the wall holes don't have the issue then either

#

i use both wall holes and floor holes

#

and then i cover up the wall holes and conveyors exiting the structure with double walls lol

plain fossil
#

the mathematical nightmare of dividing into 45/min

Screenshot20241031-15331800000.png
#

without clipping

#

had to do it for the iron too

vapid gorge
#

specifically wanting to load balance?

plain fossil
#

now what the hell do i do with 240/min steel ingots

plain fossil
oblique siren
#

How do you go about splitting belts into these numbers?

Screenshot_20241031_093435_Chrome.jpg image1.jpg
plain fossil
vapid gorge
plain fossil
#

and divide into 4x15

vapid gorge
#

it self balances

#

unless you're looking to load balance

wind spade
vapid gorge
#

yeah my preference is to clock and group machines so they have the numbers I want on the belt. But 1 splitter does it too

oblique siren
#

That's easier than mental gymnastics

vapid gorge
oblique siren
frosty owl
copper seal
#

i'll test it myself maybe, later.

vapid gorge
# oblique siren Ty

if that system needs wire/screws I'll sometimes cram stacks of those items into the machine first as it can take like 20 minutes to spin up to 100% but ... that's not needed eithe rreally

copper seal
#

i played toomuch satisfactory yesterday and i can feel it in my shoulder lol, so i might wanna take it easy today

#

😂

frosty owl
#

(Please do be careful not to spread unwarranted panic about items being deleted by the game next time, if you can 😅
A throughput loss is very different and much less severe than items being deleted!)

copper seal
#

nah bahroth already confirmed its just a throughput issue

frosty owl
copper seal
#

satisfactory isn't to blame 😂 its the fact that i've been gaming for like 26 years and don't have a proper size desk

#

also satisfactory isn't a game that forces me to sit correctly =| i just relax so much so i start sitting in weird angles and positions haha

frosty owl
copper seal
#

ye i was just saying what the guy in the vid was

#

also, i've had fluid dissapearing from my pipes

frosty owl
#

They never mentioned items disappearing, that was a conclusion you two came two.
I'm not truing to crucify you, just trying to clarify 😅

copper seal
#

so i don't trust the game 100% to begin with

#

i think maybe its the hidden overhead? idk

#

cause if i stop my entire fuel generator setup and let it fill up completely + internal buffers and then turn it on all the buffers of my refineries start emptying

#

it eventually balances out but still =|

frosty owl
copper seal
#

nah it just happens overtime

#

even if i stop the entire setup and then turn it back on, without reloading the save

#

the buffers will eventually just empty

#

5 refineries into 10 fuel generators, if i stop them, let them all fill up and then start it back up again, one refinery will have like 43 fuel in the internal buffer, one will have 13 or something and the other 3 refineries will have empty buffers lol

#

i mean my setup works so im not gonna complain but still

#

some fuel is dissapearing

#

it just evens out eventually into working order

frosty owl
copper seal
#

i know, they won't even produce with 46.1m3

#

its not like they stop producing all together lol

#

it doesn't happen immediately either, takes a while for the buffers to empty xd

#

i think its that hidden overhead people were talking about

#

anyways it works 🤷‍♂️

frosty owl
# copper seal it doesn't happen immediately either, takes a while for the buffers to empty xd

Just like flow doesn't immediately stabilizes along the pipeline. Sometimes it takes more fluid out of some refineries while leaving others to idle; whenever machines idle, the overall amount of fluid in the system (pipework + buffers of connected machines) reduces as more fluid is consumed then produced; so as the fluid in the pipework stabilizes, the machines may idle long enough that the fluid consumed is equal or more than what they had buffered

frosty owl
copper seal
#

idk 🤷‍♂️

plain fossil
#

ok used that steel for molded beams

Screenshot20241031-16172100000.png
#

90/min, gonna fill up quick

copper seal
#

so maybe its only a issue with mk5 belts, or maybe its lag related?

#

i tried mk1/2/3/4

unborn ermine
#

leaving a setup with mk4 lifts rn

copper seal
#

cause i wasn't able to recreate it with mk4 on 1m foundation

unborn ermine
#

1m

#

gotta love mental flipping jacelul

copper seal
#

i've set up 4 different ones

#

mk1 through mk4, has been stable for 5 minutes

unborn ermine
#

mk 4 is showing signs of change

#

its VERY slow

#

its a flicker, then its a wiggle

copper seal
#

i mean its a flicker for me to

#

but its just flickering between 486 and 487

unborn ermine
#

it was solid before when I started tho

copper seal
#

and itsb een doing that for 6 minutes now

#

all of them flicker between 486 and 487

unborn ermine
#

and its getting worse on mine.

copper seal
#

also wanted to check wall holes w/ conveyors on them but that isn't doing anything either

unborn ermine
#

there we go

#

dropped a whole number

copper seal
#

lag then?

#

mines been stable for 8 minutes now meanwhile yours changed in 2 lol

unborn ermine
#

I have a much older PC so probably
Either way, its defo an issue because its ONLY on 1m floor holes

copper seal
#

i'll leave it running while i let out my dogs, if it doesn't change when its back then idk

copper seal
#

well... 30 minutes, nothing happened

velvet ferry
#

I had an interesting idea, instead of doing large power plants if I instead piped or trained in crude to each of my main factories and each had their own "furnace" and power grid

copper seal
#

i'll still build without putting conveyor floor holes through 1m foundations though, if its lag related, even if i'm not lagging right now there is no guarantee i won't later

spice ridge
#

Hi guys, can someone help me? I can't seem to start up the game, it crashes after 2/3 seconds. I tried verifying files, launch codes, updating drivers... nothing works.

velvet ferry
#

And there is just a lot of recipes that mix oil and metals as there is.. just a thought I had

copper seal
#

also i do put in long shifts sometimes and then my game will start slowing down

wind spade
copper seal
#

also i'll try letting it sit with fps capped at 30

#

see if that does anything

#

i'd cap it at 20 if i could

unborn ermine
#

Mines flickering between 7-6, I put in 319 when I started (after the loop was set) with mk4 lifts

proud totem
# copper seal i think maybe its the hidden overhead? idk

Yes, do not forget each pipe (and a few other fluid objects too) have a 40% overfill capacity. This capacity (from my own experiments) is not shown in the UI in the game. So it can look like fluid is disappearing, when in fact it actually exists, but just in the overfill we cannot visually see

#

For reference, my experiment was to have a simple water extractor hooked up to some pipes. I then timed how long until the water extractor began consistently filling up its internal buffer. The time required was always 40% more than one would think if you only consider what the UI shows the capacity of each pipe to be. This coincides with what is found in the game code's header files

unborn ermine
#

Which is why its always good to let your last producing machine overfill, then start fiddling with the next set.

#

afterwards removing the excess in the machine buffers

proud totem
#

In general I just begin by producing more than I consume by turning off some of the consuming machines. That will eventually force everything to flood, just takes time dependent on the difference between production and consumption. But non-zero difference => finite time to flood

#

I think this could actually also be a legit use case for a valve too. To aid in flooding a system, include a buffer at the end of the line that is filled up while your consumers are off. Then before you turn on the consumers, add a valve which ensures fluid can only leave the buffer. Once the system is flooded, remove the buffer and valve altogether

warm blade
copper seal
#

i've capped fps at 30 and it didn't do anything

#

i alt tabbed while watching dexter which should make the game slow down a bit but still nothing

#

aside from playing 2 games at once i don't know how else to introduce lag with little effort lol

#

or maybe im still not lagging enough idk

unborn ermine
#

Yeah your PC might be doing too good to exacerbate the problem like mine is.

copper seal
#

i mean my PC isn't THAT good

#

its a Ryzen 5 5700X / RTX 3070 Ti and 32GB of 3200MHz ram

unborn ermine
#

Mine has parts that are from 2012 and earlier

copper seal
#

ah yeah definitely not like that haha

#

also my factory isn't huge yet

#

i have like.. i'd guess 300-ish buildings rn?

#

maybe by the time i unlock mk5/mk6 i will run into issues

#

anyways, until its confirmed fixed i won't touch 1m foundation floorholes

unborn ermine
#

GTX 660 Ti from 2012, my save has 891 construct/extractors, 240 fuel gens, 52 coal, and all 31 geo gens.

#

Thats not including my idle rail line, and drones that im prepping.

spare jolt
unborn ermine
#

Pretty much, although debating a few because of the gross effect of say, having cloud quality low.

flint rapids
#

I have been calcing uranium/plutonium alts and it comes out that the best 'Power per Uranium ore' is using all alts except for 'Fertile Uranium'.
That Fertile Uranium is strong by itself and with most other alts, but if Fertile used in same chain as 'Infused Uranium Cell' then it loses to using 'Infused' without 'Fertile'.
Does that track? Is that the correct result?

dark star
#

i think the bigger question is, how big is the energy difference? is it worth the extra complexity, setup and math? i think SF tools only minimises item input and cant optimise for power. Although it will give you power used and you can select and deselect alts to use

oblique hollow
#

Fertile is for increasing plutonium yield

#

thats all

#

it has a higher yield compared to the normal recipe

bronze kestrel
#

What could be the reason and starting point to trouble fix, my 200/min rubber factory, went without touching from 200 min to 160 ? It worked fine for maybe 50hours. I can see the refiners going to yellow from time to time. I'm just so confused, cause it used to be working flawless. And now it's fucked

oblique hollow
#

even if you consider all possible alts for uranium

dark star
bronze kestrel
#

Rubber is split into a sink or factory. The rest goes into refinery's and into power

dark star
#

starting point to troubleshoot: open refinery during yellow light.. why is it idle? full output? empty input?

bronze kestrel
dark star
#

so you need a way to offput more HOR? either make more fuel and more gens, or HOR in coke and sink it/use it

#

or, lazy option, if it works for a couple hours, just flush the system and come back once in a couple hours lol

ember fractal
#

I set up a 72 RCU factory

bronze kestrel
#

Well i still can remove the underclocking from the refnery's and the fuel gen's after the rubber circuit. Downside is that my power will be more unstable then it already is

unborn dome
copper seal
#

wait

dark star
copper seal
#

is the encased steel pipe recipe better than encased industrial beams?

#

like, more steel/concrete efficient?

unborn dome
copper seal
#

i was thinking the same thing but im limited on steel, so i need it to be resource efficient

proud totem
#

Yes, encased pipe is more resource efficient

copper seal
#

🤔

#

do i need beams for anything important later on?

bronze kestrel
amber umbra
flint rapids
# oblique hollow Fertile is for increasing plutonium yield

Wasn't talking about some "plutonium yield", only 'power per ore'. And yes I do get more Plutonium rods with Fertile, but fewer Uranium rods, and the total sum of (uranium*power)+(plutonium*power) is lesser for the Fertile route than it is for Infused Urnium Cell route. So I was asking for math-check on that, to see if anyone else did similar calculations and came to same conclusions or if there is a mistake somewhere to look for on my part.

unborn dome
#

And motors

copper seal
#

i mean...

dark star
copper seal
#

i can just use mk4's instead from the encased pipes right? xd

unborn dome
bronze kestrel
unborn dome
#

But as far as actual item manufacturing, you can cut beams out entirely afaik

copper seal
#

i think you only need it for some small things right?

bronze kestrel
#

i think maybe the 133.333/min is what cause a reeaaallyy slow bottleneck

unborn dome
#

Ok just checking the wiki, versatile frameworks (for project assembly) and plutonium fuel rods use steel beams too.

dark star
copper seal
#

like valves, some glass floors etc.?

#

i mean plutonium is a while away for me

unborn dome
#

But the rest of the steel beam uses are buildings of various sorts. I've got a single assembler trickling beams into a dimensional depot for my own use, but currently not using them in any manufacturing processes.

bronze kestrel
unborn ermine
#

Beams and pipes for rails

dark star
bronze kestrel
dark star
#

np np, happens to the best of us

prisma kraken
copper seal
unborn dome
prisma kraken
#

its still a WIP

copper seal
#

so i'll just use encased pipe recipe instead for the big production stuff

unborn dome
prisma kraken
#

i'lll grab a few pics after i start the game if you'd like

unborn dome
#

That'd be great if you don't mind

prisma kraken
#

np, i still haven't gotten the copper or rubber into it and have some long distance belts bringing in the bauxite which will be done by train eventually

#

there's only so much train building i can take at a time,lol

unborn dome
#

I'm talking about this spot in particular, although I think you've got the main factory a bit further south

image.png
prisma kraken
#

this is it from a distance

image.png
unborn dome
#

Maybe that's a good idea to do something like what you did too, though, since the aluminum factory could maybe make more-advanced stuff too by bringing in the nearby nitrogen.

prisma kraken
#

altogether, it will end up making 600 sheets, 50 cooling systems and 350 heatsinks

unborn dome
#

Is that smaller spot you've got right below the bauxite nodes your starter aluminum factory?

prisma kraken
#

the initial one didn't really have much space

unborn dome
proud totem
prisma kraken
#

you can do it there, sure, the problem is that you kind of need to bring in rubber & copper and fitting train stations in there isn't easy

unborn dome
#

This is my pipes-only HMF+motors design heavily using alts

image.png
proud totem
#

It looks like steel beams are mainly used for building structures/belts/etc., versatile frameworks, and plutonium fuel rods. But its like 18 beams per rod, which isn't very many I don't think. Looks like the main use is for versatile frameworks, which you need for later space elevator parts as well

unborn dome
proud totem
unborn dome
#

There's also an aluminum beam alt that could be used too

prisma kraken
#

this is the design i went with for HMF's

#

big factory, lol

#

iron alloy is pretty bonkers good

unborn dome
proud totem
unborn dome
#

That and Solid Steel

prisma kraken
#

yeah, Solid steel is always going to be stalwart great

#

what i find sort of funny is how much other recipes have supplanted coke steel's situational goodness

unborn ermine
#

Solid steel best choice, unless you have compact coal sitting around that you are never going to use.

proud totem
# prisma kraken

This is what I did for HMFs. Steel pipes, beams and concrete coming from a large steel factory I built prior

image.png
prisma kraken
#

that's kind of similar to my mod frame factory

pulsar notch
#

I could probably refine my production, but I siphoned off excess production from my versatile framework line to drastically cut down the machines needed for my HMF production.

unborn dome
#

I prefer Steeled Frame over the default modular frame recipe. Reinforced iron plates and, you guessed it, more steel pipes

prisma kraken
#

again, i gotta say pure iron & copper are newb traps

image.png
pulsar notch
#

Trap how?

proud totem
prisma kraken
#

they take a lot of power for yields that you can do better with other recipes. For 300 copper & 900 iron, the alloy recipes made 200 copper ingots & 1500 iron ingots in that mod frame design

#

iron alloy actually has higher ingot yield than pure iron

dark star
#

pure copper has an amazing ratio for just adding a splash of water, way less hassle than getting antother resourse like iron, coke, or acid

pulsar notch
#

Ohhhh, the pure recipes

copper seal
#

i wish there was an easier way to put things in and take things out of machines

prisma kraken
#

yeah, but pure copper only is needed if you are setting out to make 60 pasta/min

#

like you really don't need much copper outside of pasta

copper seal
#

like for example, i wish you could just press one button and it would immediately put a power shard into a machine and also overclock it to the max

#

i wanna just be able to spam one single button to power shard and 250% a whole factory =|

prisma kraken
oblique hollow
copper seal
#

wait really?

#

no recipes are fine i know that

oblique hollow
#

if you DID set a recipe, you can also do this

#

but it will also paste the recipe of course

copper seal
#

but can you put powershards in with ctrl+c / ctrl+v?

prisma kraken
#

yep

oblique hollow
#

ye

unborn ermine
pulsar notch
#

I think I'll use the pure caterium though

copper seal
#

ah ye ofcourse i didn't think about that fml

prisma kraken
#

yeah, doesn't work for generators or extractors/miners, but production machines, copy and paste will do shards

copper seal
#

it doesnt matter if i powershard a whole factory if the whole factory is already using all the available resources anyways =|

unborn ermine
#

Blueprinting power like fuel gens saves you the hassle of adding shards, so thats a win there at least if you DO use them jacelul

copper seal
#

mweh

prisma kraken
#

yeah bp'ing gens helps with that

copper seal
#

so far, aside from extractors, i've built everything with 0 power shards in mind

#

what about emptying / filling internal storage?

#

like for example, i'm using a manifold, it would be nice if i could just ctrl+c and ctrl+v to prime them all :v

proud totem
#

I think you can CTRL+Click to move all stacks of a specific item into a storage container

pulsar notch
#

I always overclock fuel gens to 200%, the math doesn't change, really, aside from the number of machines

copper seal
#

ye ofcourse i know that kind of stuff but i meant production machines specifically

proud totem
#

Oh internal storage

#

I wonder if BPs include internal storage if you put an item in then save the BP

unborn ermine
#

I think if you have the item yes?

proud totem
#

Considering BPing a manifold is already usually a good way to go, that doesn't really add much (aside from needing all the raw resources)

unborn ermine
#

I know a streamer I watched that had a bio burner BP he just plops down.

fickle roost
#

I have a question. Do people package their fluids and then transport it to the mega factory or do they craft offsite and then return the items that have been crafted?

proud totem
#

I also now (since I am well into the midgame) typically use smart splitters for my manifolds, and only send overflow on down the line. I think it helps with startup speeds since you are fully saturating one line at a time with as many resources as possible before even activating any more machines. Essentially prevents "loss" of items from the machines using the items, so more items go towards filling the manifold first

unborn ermine
fickle roost
unborn ermine
#

I was going to use a train, but I swapped to packing + drones.

unborn dome
fickle roost
unborn ermine
#

since 600 was going one way, and the rest was going another, not enough to bother packing for a train.

proud totem
#

I wish we could more efficiently transport fluids. Simple liquids are okay, but packaging is still better, but gasses do not work at all without some loss. Makes me sad because I like seeing trains with a variety of car shapes

fickle roost
#

I might just conveyor the stuff back to base ngl

#

I have the infrastructure set up with how I have set up my hypertubes

unborn ermine
fickle roost
proud totem
#

Kinda feel bad about not fully automating them, but oh well, I'll need to do it later anyways

fickle roost
#

Why do I do with heavy fuel guys?

proud totem
#

And then I can more easily integrate it into producing the other parts

unborn dome
unborn ermine
#

and im using mk3 miners

pulsar notch
proud totem
# unborn dome That's what I did too to reach P4

Yeah, 100 ACUs actually isn't all that many, especially if you sloop them. 500 mod motors was a bit more, but I still had a scuffed motor setup, and could easily automate some smart plating fast enough to work

fickle roost
proud totem
pulsar notch
unborn ermine
#

one thing I do to prep, having a smart splitter feed into a sink, that way I can later just crank up the output of the miner and take the split for new things (if a legacy factory can stay put)

proud totem
#

I'm begining to realize how many stations you need for moving large quantities around. Guess that's why drones are a thing

copper seal
#

or did you hand feed them? lol

unborn ermine
#

I had phase one stuff done, but I barely had wiring done jacelul

spare jolt
#

you can, but... why?

#

outside of sinking it afterwards, i mean

wind spade
copper seal
#

well, you need them automated eventually

unborn ermine
#

and like

image.png
#

I dont reaaally need them yet

copper seal
#

for example you need 1000 Adaptive Control units

#

you make 100 of them for Phase 3 but you need 1000 for Phase 4

#

you also need modular engines etc. and you need thousands of those too

spare jolt
# unborn ermine and like

8,273,500 until next dna coupon 💀 .
bro legit decided to commit a full local wildlife extermination

unborn ermine
#

I still have another batch comming soon

#

I put it on hold but I could do it soon.

#

distracted by my RF setup

#

(and now by drones I dont need yet)

copper seal
#

why do you even need drones at all though

#

can't you just use trains lol

spare jolt
#

small deliveries from afar and much easier to set up

#

i ain't gonna set up a whole train for 15 iron plates and 30 SPowder per minute

unborn ermine
spare jolt
#

yea, also nitrogen

copper seal
#

ah i guess ye for stuff like that

unborn ermine
#

thankfully packaging loops just need containers dumped in, and thats it.

unborn dome
#

Also for shipping finished items like frames to another factory for more-advanced recipes to use them.

spare jolt
#

pity the drones are so spoiled and only take the finest fuels you can find there

copper seal
#

ah so you guys essentially just use trains for raw materials

#

and then drone sfor completed items?

spare jolt
#

meanwhile that one tractor feeding on solid biofuel since phase 1:

unborn dome
#

Like I'm going to be using trains to transport plastic and rubber around

spare jolt
#

but for something like smokeless powder from your istant RF plant - 10/10

copper seal
#

brooooo i need to do another oil thingy

prisma kraken
#

the descriminator is often volume

copper seal
#

i need more plastic and rubber

#

its fine for now but because i did direct to fuel its only 180 rubber and plastic each from poly residue

unborn ermine
#

On the topic of drones from a bit ago, it would be 337.5/min south to the oil on the gold coast, 150/min over to the cliff beside the uranium spike (aka the old box bug on the interactive map)

image.png
#

Train would be weird.

#

(also reminding me I need to clean my zipline wires in the dangle spires soon jacelul)

indigo wren
#

is there any kind of bug where you can't make full use of an mk2 pipe?

spare jolt
#

some people say there is. some people say there is not.

indigo wren
#

i have 2 oil extractors 250% (600m3) so 1200m3 -> 20 OC refineries consume 600m3 each row and somehow they're running out of oil

outer vale
#

there's certainly behaviour that'll prevent it

indigo wren
#

should i add a third extractor and balance it in the other end of tose reifneries?

outer vale
#

I see you've already got a #1038092680493801533 post up, maybe add some images of the rest of the piping since that'll help anyone who wants to help diagnose

#

the main thing that usually helps is looping pipes, along with not doing weird input setups

indigo wren
#

i am looping them

#

ill send pics in my post

dark star
#

if you set it up linearly, without extra inputs, you get throughput problems, cause machines take fluid intermittently, instead of constantly, leading to spikes in demand above 600m3, which causes a lack of resources downstream

#

feeding fluid from both sides (ie looping the system), fixes most of these problems

brisk smelt
plain fossil
#

who up saturating they pipe systems

copper seal
#

like people have mentioned try to make sure the pipes are completely filled before turning the refineries on

plain fossil
#

isnt it fixable by shoving in a ton of pumps?

copper seal
#

nope

#

pumps can actually make things worse lol

plain fossil
#

ive noticed that too sadly

copper seal
#

so anyways, make sure the pipes + internal buffers are full before you turn them on, if that didn't fix it, you can loop the pipe back from the last refinery to the first refinery

#

also, make sure that the pipe you're feeding the machines from is at the same height as the intakes

#

above would be fine too

#

but, everytime you want to change something, turn off the refineries and let the pipes and internal buffers fill up again before turning them on

#

every. single. time

#

thats like, the most important part

proud totem
#

Maybe a hot take, but as I've seen discussions around pipes and played with them and reasoned about them, I don't actually think they are bugged. I think it is like @dark star said, things run in discrete instances (which is intentional), and so there are times where less than 600 flow is needed, bringing down the average flow below 600 as a natural consequence of having a hard 600 cap. Loops allow an alternative path and flow buildup, effectively allowing for >600 flow, and "storing" that flow (or rather the ability to achieve that flow) when <600 flow is used

copper seal
#

idk, cause if it wasn't bugged then we should see the same issues in mk1 pipes

#

but mk1 pipes are much less tedious than the mk2 ones

proud totem
#

And I think we don't see the issues since they can't compound like they can with MK II

copper seal
#

anyways, point is, mk2 pipes are just finnicky but you can make them work

plain fossil
#

Are there mods for easier pipe management

copper seal
#

idk, but sometimes i wish pipes just behaved like electricty instead of trying to emulate liquids

manic matrix
#

I'd like to confirm that this does work, though it's kind of annoying to build ;p

image.png
plain fossil
#

also is there a way to make my default poles mk2, when using wires i mean

manic matrix
# copper seal idk, but sometimes i wish pipes just behaved like electricty instead of trying t...

i feel like it'd be fine as long as it worked consistently all the time, with the 80 fuel generator system I just shared there I ran into some issues with things turning off and on and i wasnt sure why, until i figured out that it was because the first fuel refinery in a line of 16 refiniries wasn't able to send the output past the first pipe unless I put a pump on it (even though it didnt actually need any extra headlift)

copper seal
#

? thats a odd issue

manic matrix
#

yeah i was really peeved by it lol

copper seal
#

maybe it was a connection issue? i was making a oil platform and i connected a pipe at some point, it was filled up and looked visually connected but it wasn't moving anything

dark star
#

pipe mechanics arent infallable, and were a bit funky in previous builds. but in 1.0, i think 9 out of 10 'pipe dont work' problems are cause of a misunderstanding of the mechanics at hand and throughput issues.

copper seal
#

i deleted it and just placed it back again and it suddenly started working

manic matrix
#

thats what i thought initially but it kept happening after i rebuilt the line

dark star
#

ah sorry, the discussion has moved on

copper seal
manic matrix
#

well mine was mk1 haha

plain fossil
#

btw what the point of valves, any time i try to use them, it still lets more fluid through than what i set it to

copper seal
#

ah ye mk1's have less issues

manic matrix
#

if i can replicate it do you think it'd be worth getting footage of it happening so i can report it as a bug?

copper seal
#

besides, valves are more like a bandaid

plain fossil
#

you cant automate them either, or copy paste

copper seal
#

i mean you can't automate storage containers either

dark star
#

ive never really needed valves, what do you guys use them for?

plain fossil
#

nothing, bc they do nothing :)

copper seal
#

because the other pipes will spill into the new pipes

dark star
#

wouldnt just not connecting it have the same effect?

plain fossil
#

i mean i tried using them to supply machines with enough fuel so that an overflow doesnt happen, but it still happens, so im confused by their function

copper seal
#

like i said, its more like a bandaid

dark star
plain fossil
#

lemme just google what intermittent means

manic matrix
#

on and off

copper seal
plain fossil
#

oh ok

oblique hollow
dark star
#

let my put it this way, valve set to 120m3 a min, feeding into a line of 6 refineries taking 20 each,
all in cycle: demand on the system is zero, pipe fills and flow at the valve stops
end of cycle: suddenly huge demand for fluid, sucks pipe dry, the 120m3 max flow cant compensate, machines idle

oblique hollow
#

Im experimenting with valve some more and it does seem that they, more or less, prevent some levels of backflow
but they are only so strong

manic matrix
#

i thought that off pumps worked as backflow blockers

proud totem
#

IIRC, the pipe manual outlines why and how valves can create the illusion of backwards flow. What they do is stop movement of liquids in a certain direction, but that is not the same as preventing "backflow", or rather, something that acts like backflow

oblique hollow
#

if you have a vertical bottom feeding manifold, usually the fluid fills the network like this:
(assuming >--+---+---+---+---+, where each plus is a junction with a vertical pipe going up)

  1. fluid enters from left to right filling the bottom pipes. The vertical pipes all remain only partially filled
  2. once the last horizontal pipe is filled, all vertical pipes fill from right to left (as fluid now reached the end and the it starts bunching up from end to start
  3. the first vertical pipe on the left will now receive the majority of flow, similar to a belt manifold
plain fossil
#

that makes sense

oblique hollow
#

irl, you would expect all bottom pipes to fill and then all vertical pipes at about the same time, and then all vertical pipes roughly get the same flow
but thats my assumption and i dont know how real pipes would act

copper seal
#

do you still get canisters back from using fuel in the jetpack?

oblique hollow
#

no

copper seal
#

or do they get discarded?

#

rip

plain fossil
#

gone to tbe void

oblique hollow
#

they get burned up like all other packaged fuels

manic matrix
#

i prefer it that way lol

plain fossil
#

but why would you need it canisters are very easy to make

copper seal
#

guess i'll be using my spare plastic for fuel canisters

plain fossil
#

i have mine to dimensional depot and i just forget abt them

magic island
#

returning empties from burned packaged fuel would add some annoying extra logistics to vehicles, so you just kinda gotta accept that trucks and jetpacks consume the plastic somehow

copper seal
#

i'm not using packaged or diluted packaged

#

i will eventually but i have plenty of power for now

plain fossil
#

clearly they melt that plastic down back into oil and use that as fuel

oblique hollow
# proud totem

and that is still true enough in.... im not even sure if its "most cases" but definitely with mk 2 at max flow
any other case usually that backflow in red gets stopped very fast due to more liquid arriving from the left

#

but mk 2 is... gnarly

proud totem
#

Like at best it does nothing, at worst it hurts you

oblique hollow
#

well it does force it on one direction and it doesnt let it escape

proud totem
#

The liquid yes

#

And so that does have 1 use case I have thought of

oblique hollow
#

but the realism of pipes means that you get the very real case of a pressure wave colliding with the closed valve input and bouncing back

#

the valve cant "grab" fluid and hold it still when it hits it's input side

proud totem
#

When filling a manifold, you can begin by having all the consumers turned off, fill up a buffer, then add a valve to only let fluid out of the buffers and turn on the machines

oblique hollow
#

but valves do seem useful for preventing fluid manifolds from draining back towards the input if that becomes an issue

copper seal
#

perhaps one day i'll just learn how to make mods so i can destroy their precious little liquid simulation and just replace it with instant transmission no BS like electricity =[

proud totem
oblique hollow
#

in a vertical manifold, usually the machines near the very end are the ones that starve most of the time

#

due to not enough fluid being able to accumulate to move up the pipe

#

and also fluid being able to move back

#

as every vertical pipe pushes down

#

but a valve CAN prevent parts of a manifold from draining from this "backwards push" through gravity

#

same goes for a pump

#

a pump seems more useful tho as it gives the manifold new headlift

#

and, btw, POWERED pumps also prevent backflow

proud totem
#

I do wonder if valves would be useful if you had one at every point where two pipes connect. Since fluid can't slosh around within a single pipe (after all, a pipe just holds the number of the amount of fluid), if you put a valve at every pipe connection, pipes wouldn't be bi-directional anymore

oblique hollow
#

it has never been the case that only unpowered pump prevent backflow

#

idk why that myth pops up now and again

#

even the manual says "prevents backflow, even unpowered"

oblique hollow
#

you are turning the manifold into double the pipes, and its short pipes

proud totem
oblique hollow
#

and the game doesnt like a bunch of short pipes compared to less but bigger pipes

proud totem
oblique hollow
#

bigger pipes also have a bigger overfill fraction, which is the thing that keeps headlift alive

proud totem
#

And the simulation seems to work better with larger fluid boxes

oblique hollow
#

every pipe has an invisible 40% extra space

proud totem
#

Yep

oblique hollow
#

ONLY this invisible space keeps headlift alive

proud totem
#

And what half of that contributes to extra HL

#

I don't remember the exact number the headers mention but something like that

oblique hollow
proud totem
#

Extra in terms of it is a different value than from a pump

oblique hollow
#

the only other header part is the "overfill percentage"
which is just "you dont need the full overfill to keep headlift alive, only like 50% of this 40% fraction"

proud totem
#

Here was the relevant stuff in the header

image.png
#

Oh wait, that might be missing one value, hold on

#

(That photo was from last night, sorry)

#

Oh no wait, I just can't read. I am assuming OVERFILL_USED_FOR_PRESSURE_PCT is 50%, meaning 50% of the overfill (which itself is 40% of the volume) is used for pressure

#

And I guess it may not be extra, but simply how much of the existing HL we are able to use. So at 120% we can use (and I guess transfer, not entirely certain what "use" may mean) all the HL available

oblique hollow
#

no you reach max HL at 20% overfill

proud totem
#

And of course pass on some pressure loss

#

Yes, so 120% of the pipe

oblique hollow
#

the extra space is just so you can lose fluid without losing headlift

#

so you can fill up to 140%, but headlift only cares about the first 120%

proud totem
#

Right, that's what I said. Maybe I didn't word it well

spare jolt
#

Hey all. I know one should be looping the pipes for maximum throughtput, but... Why exactly do that? How does this even work?

oblique hollow
#

and the extra space is just for pipe flow to do its thing

oblique hollow
#

it fills the machine and then that small pipe going into the machine is full

#

problem is, the junctions merges that fluid back with the 600/min input

#

so you interrupt the 600/min

grim hill
#

how do i open the console on a german keyboard

oblique hollow
#

switch to UK english keyboard langauge, then press ^ / °

proud totem
oblique hollow
grim hill
#

how do i switch keyboard language again

oblique hollow
#

shift + alt usually
but you gotta check windows settings for secondary language

grim hill
#

i thought shift alt as well, because it worked in the past, but now it isnt

proud totem
magic island
#

consider a conveyor manifold that's been fully saturated and the branched-off belts into each machine are all backed up

now imagine that the backed up belts can spill back onto the main belt and clog it up

pipes

proud totem
#

What I mean is this. Fluid can only enter in at one direction, and can only flow out in the other directions. It would prevent a machine in the middle of the line from "sucking" water from pipes on either sides, and instead only from pipes on one side. If each machine then all sucked water from (for example) the left most, I feel like it could solve the problem, but only if the split and the directionality were applied in the same step by way of it being a single game object.
But perhaps the junction itself having fluid could introduce the same problem anyways

image.png
#

What I really should do is get into modding to try and poke at the simulation more

#

That and I have a few ideas for some more testing I could do in vanilla to check some things. Namely if 600 flow rate from one machine to another with no splits or combinations is truly possible without loss

unborn ermine
#

not possible, theres always some minor loss.
found that out doing hand feeding of aluminum a while back.

#

the electrode scrap machine was showing 12/12 fluid needed, but the craft would never happen.

proud totem
#

Interesting

unborn ermine
#

it was a tiny pipe connection too, like just enough for a belt to barely exit and clip a bit.

#

Unless there is fluid already in there, full, there will be that initial loss.

#

(or final loss as the pipe empties? hard to say snuttstare)

proud totem
#

I moreso mean loss of flow rate, not of fluid itself. Like if I have 1 machine outputting 600/min and 1 machine using 600/min, is there eventually a buildup in the output machine. If the flow rate is in fact something like 599 and not 600, there would be

crimson night
#

i have a system turning 300 oil into 800 fuel using diluted packaged fuel

#

i can use the recycled rubber recipe and consume 400 fuel with that, then put 400 of the 800 rubber and turn it into recycled plastic using another 400 fuel to feed the recycled rubber production

#

but then it only gives me 400 rubber leftover and i feel like i'm doing something wrong

#

is there a step or item i'm missing that would make it much more efficient?

spare jolt
crimson night
#

i've just seen other oil setups get way more value out of turning diluted packaged fuel into rubber

river night
#

You can make 450+450 from 300 raw oil by also using the polymer byproduct from the heavy oil, thats about it

prisma kraken
crimson night
crimson night
#

sorry

prisma kraken
#

the letters in sequence make words

spare jolt
#

You can check it in the calculator, it will 100% try to use other recipes like default Rubber

bitter grail
crimson night
#

i'll calculate how much i'd get out of using the polymer resin recipe then turning that into residual plastic

#

rubber*

#

325...
then diluted packaged fuel for the byproduct... 200 fuel...
425 rubber...

#

normal rubber would give 200...
then 400 diluted packaged fuel from the heavy oil... makes 400 rubber combined...

#

i should probably do these calculations in my head instead of writing them down here

#

oh
diluted packaged fuel is the most efficient
400 rubber from the recycle recipes then another 100 from the polymer resin

prisma kraken
unborn ermine
#

So Im thinking on my drones for packaging, a drone per port that sends back the empties to the same port that are sending the nitrogen "should" be alright?
My output isnt super high so assume the drone waiting wouldnt be too bad.

prisma kraken
#

you can do pretty well with that, yeah. it is one of the use cases drones were added to the game to support (and the reason the nitro wells are inconveniently located)

pulsar notch
#

Huh. That's maybe a dumb idea... set up packaged fuel or packaged rocket fueel or something, but give it less flow than it needs to run constantly, so it only flies when it has enough fuel for a run. Might be a way to ensure you aren't constantly burning fuel, but also to use up an odd bit that doesn't go into generators evenly?

#

Like, set up a drone route for smokeless powder or something that only runs when enough fuel has accumulated for the run

haughty badge
#

Speaking of rocketfuel, what are the actual recipes needed for efficient RF production?

#

I have them all unlocked, but struggling to put the pieces together

unborn dome
#

Assuming a supply of caterium isn't a concern, is fused quickwire really worth it?

haughty badge
#

Plenty of copper nodes around for just wire though

pulsar notch
#

Fused is 90/min base, so it's good for a single machine output, to me.

unborn dome
#

The main concern I have is that the area where I was going to build my computer factory doesn't have copper close enough, so I was thinking just going with the default quickwire recipe, since there's three caterium nodes in a group.

unborn ermine
#

staring at the 3 normal copper nvm
The orange tricked me

unborn dome
#

But I think that's probably more than enough caterium to just use the default?

Yeah, the arrow lol, but that's too far to belt and too close to train.

#

Yeah if one of those irons was copper it'd be perfect

hollow plank
#

you can belt that if you make a good belt blueprint

#

or you could use trucks

finite tendon
#

That is not good topography for trucks from the look of the terrain lines?

hollow plank
#

ramps exist

#

or you can be funny and make them fall/ jump (jumpads

unborn ermine
#

If you dont use ramps yeah, its a bit of a loop from the west side.

hollow plank
#

honestly setting up trucks is kinda annoying but you do have coal nearby if your willing to use it

#

i would just make a belt blueprint, if you set it up rigth it can look really good

unborn ermine
#

yeah probably more work than belting to get the coal there, as the nearest is the pure nodes near the pond, or two impure farther south jacelul

hollow plank
#

if you really want, just spaghetti belt it for now and fix it later

pulsar notch
#

by later, you mean never, right?

tidal dock
hollow plank
hollow plank
pulsar notch
#

nah, iron wires isn't much worse than copper wire. Iron pipes on the other hand... man the price for simplicity is high

hollow plank
#

that is probably one oof the worst alts

#

caterium wire is very nice tho

tidal dock
#

I need all the copper for copper powder and sheet and make more Caterium, etc.

hollow plank
#

what is copper powder for?

#

ive never heard of it

#

OHHH its the brown concrete

pulsar notch
#

in theory, using the pure caterium recipe and then fused quickwire would be the best way to make a caterium node go the furthest, right? Aside from reducing quickwire usage via alts, of course.

hollow plank
#

yeah

tidal dock
hollow plank
#

honestly somersloops are probably the best addition ever, i messed up my calculations and hours of work were about to be f'ed but now i was able to fix it

pulsar notch
#

sloops are indeed a really nice bandaid for screwups, or just for scaling up compactly.

hollow plank
#

oh man i rlly need to make an iron plant, i got rid of it and have been using tickets ever since

#

im on stage 4 of the game btw and about to complete super computers

pulsar notch
#

I needed like 20 circuit boards/min for my computer production, slooping the assembler saved me needing a second assembler

hollow plank
#

at 12 pm

hollow plank
heavy gust
pulsar notch
#

I'm probably going to unlock mk 3 miners and then move my existing copper wire/sheets/cable production to a different copper node I'm not using currently, because the node I'm currently using is about my best bet for a caterium products factory.

brisk smelt
#

beautiful 6.66 item/min splitter

image.png