math-and-meta

[raw halo]

98% validation

[proud totem]

I should start to count how many times you reply with that one 😂 You're not wrong, I just find it funny

[raw halo]

I could stream my game to a vc and get real-time help

[thorn trellis]

Dude I was thinking the same thing

[compact prawn]

Got it

[thorn trellis]

Wait a minute how long is that wth what r u transporting

[raw halo]

oil

isn't it obvious?

[thorn trellis]

It’s not that much tho for one 600 pipe

[raw halo]

black pipes

[wind spade]

well it's a reasonable question, asking for followup clarification

[thorn trellis]

I use black pipes for everything tbf

[raw halo]

ah

the oil toob

[proud totem]

It absolutely is, just funny how often that question gets asked

[compact prawn]

I added another breakoff halfway through

[wind spade]

well because people assume there's such a thing as "best" 🤷

[proud totem]

We need to define a total ordering on alt recipes obviously \s

[compact prawn]

600 oil per minute in a single pipe into 20 refineries making heavy oil residue

[thorn trellis]

OHH i see why it’s long

[wind spade]

alphabetical 🙂

[thorn trellis]

I do 300 a pipe for my input that’s why

I was gonna say mines only 10 long why more

[proud totem]

Perfect

[thorn trellis]

My output pipes r 600 tho

[raw halo]

I deleted the SML folder to try and see if that fixes it

[proud totem]

A playthrough where I only use the recipe that is "highest" in alphabetical order would be interesting

[raw halo]

holy shit it worked

and there are no VCs in this server

great

[amber jacinth]

VC's are awful to moderate :)

[raw halo]

ok

[wind spade]

awful = impossible

hence why they were removed

[raw halo]

I mean, you don't really have to moderate the vc, you only really need to moderate the vc's text channel

[wind spade]

mod ticket:
A: hey mods, B was playing earrape in the channel
B: no I wasn't

how do you moderate that?

(based on real events, not something made up)

[raw halo]

disable soundboard, ask for more than two views

[wind spade]

that was before soundboard was a thing

[raw halo]

if the majority say the person did, mute them for 48h in vcs

[wind spade]

how do you know who was and wasn't in the VC at that time?

[pulsar notch]

Yeah, not sound board, live mic and offensive audio

[compact prawn]

So I did another loopback and the only thing that happened was it just changed which machine is being shorted??

This is killing me man

[raw halo]

gotta love the scenery

tf is this

[amber jacinth]

Mine it and see 🙂

[prisma kraken]

HARVEST

[raw halo]

I'm using a hoverpack

I have 8 coal gens per floor

I forgot the space elevator is a thing and almost screamed out about the UFO targetting my HUB

[patent blaze]

:(

[raw halo]

F#CK YOU I'M STANDIN' ON YAH WATER PUMP!!!

no physics xd

[patent blaze]

HELP

[magic island]

I am so glad they made extractor placement more generous in the spire coast

water absolutely everywhere, but pre-1.0 most of it was considered too shallow to use until you went really far out

[raw halo]

going mach 7 into a resource hole

this coal plant is atrocious

[patent blaze]

so apparently this water isnt real

[raw halo]

this entire water system is atrocious

[quartz violet]

It works... Most of the time

[raw halo]

How the hell does this single pump

Provide water for TWO WHOLE FLOORS

No, I'm redoing this

jesus christ

[pulsar notch]

What in the pink Cthulu is going on?

Also, why run coal gens if you have mk 2 pipes and fuel gens?

[raw halo]

because this is the fallback network

I've got three fuel generators running over at my oil refineries

[proud totem]

I have found an interesting thing with head lift when going upwards in multiple places. This diagram shows what my setup and results were. But basically, if you go upward in multiple spots, you can actually go up higher, perhaps that is what is happening?

[quartz violet]

Interesting

[proud totem]

Using a MKI pump I somehow got the water over ~50m up

[raw halo]

then there's this

much cleaner, but horrible distribution

not to mention the halved water intake due to the floor above

[quartz violet]

It just needs more headlift I think

[raw halo]

No, what it needs is a redesign

[quartz violet]

The generator part is great

[proud totem]

My hypothesis is that with having so many places for the water to rise, as the water rises in each pipe, it induces a headlift back down which goes to the other pipes, allowing them to each reach a bit higher. This then compounds until every pipe is able to reach up very high

[raw halo]

I'm gonna try to put the input in the center and have both sides offshoot so the only one that should be getting any degredation in water input is in the center

[proud totem]

I found that putting valves at the base of each upward pipe stopped this from happening

[quartz violet]

It looks like you are trying to use too much water for those pipes

[magic island]

I love that there's a pump after the packager whose only purpose is to make the water go up a big hump, and then immediately come back down to the same level

[proud totem]

In this case it acted like there was just 1 upward pipe

[quartz violet]

7 gens is like 350 or 315 or something like that just a hair over the limit

[magic island]

yeah if you have more than 6 generators and they're not underclocked, that pipe literally cannot carry enough water to feed them

[raw halo]

I have one pipe coming up and I'm gonna have three going down

[flint rapids]

math-check please: I have been calcing Rocket Fuel recipes to minimize Sulfur use and the lowest way is [Turbo Blend (alt)]>[Rocket Fuel (base)] (and Diluted there is good but doesn't affect Sulfur). It seems to be better than any of the Nitro Rocket paths.
That tracks?

[quartz violet]

That makes extra compact coal, no?

[flint rapids]

Yes, but is it bad?

[raw halo]

Is this better?

I feel like it is

[magic island]

I don't know the reason for pumping it up to those wacky stacks when the water already starts and finishes at a similar elevation

[quartz violet]

Uhhh
I dont know what to say to that but I would not personally do it that way

[magic island]

the packager output is already a couple notches higher than the generator inputs

I do not know of any reason to pump it up to everest height just to come back down

[quartz violet]

It was fine before the problem was just throughout

[raw halo]

I did this so I could make the connections easy

also I had a feeling I might need more pipes than I did

but it also helps with the momentum

[quartz violet]

That makes it easier?
I mean do what you want

Pipes just care that they are always full

[magic island]

this seems easier to me

[raw halo]

that's what I did before and the other end wasn't getting enough water

[quartz violet]

Momentum doesn't make a difference, the simulation isn't that sophisticated

[raw halo]

the only reason I went through with this change is because I needed more water on the far end

[magic island]

because your main pipe is still an Mk1. Convert it to an Mk2

[raw halo]

I did convert it

that's a pump you're looking at

[flint rapids]

I checked that compacted coal byproduct and sending it buck to Turbo-Heavy refinery reduces Sulfur ever more for the same Rocket Fuel output, but the layout gets messier.

[magic island]

in every screenshot you've posted, the main pipe (the one going past all the generators) is still an Mk1

You've added Mk2s connecting into it but you haven't upgraded the main pipe

[raw halo]

I didn't see that at first

[quartz violet]

The main pipe right above the splitters can definitely distribute all the water by itself, I've built many many factories that way and that first layout always works as long as you have enough capacity

[tidal dock]

that the hell is this madness?

[raw halo]

better than the spaghetti monster on the first floor

[magic island]

there's 7 generators here, so they need 315 water total. an Mk1 pipe can only do it if the water can enter at more than one point

but it will not work if you try to push all the water through a single bottlenecked entry point

[raw halo]

8

[tidal dock]

why you need pump when your unpackager is on same floor as your generator?

[raw halo]

and my fuel generator failed

[quartz violet]

Good thing you're working on a backup lol

[tidal dock]

that's a simple loop that works

[prisma kraken]

first design attempt at a 4:3 balancer

(think twice before ever using such a beast)

[dark lagoon]

Me laughing at the lalencer user's

[prisma kraken]

i'm not sure i'll end up using it, i might and building them is a fun problem. I think i can get it a lot more compact

i sometimes have to build something in a way that my mind reasons about it before i can pivot the problem

[quartz violet]

hehehe overflow splitter go brrr

[prisma kraken]

doesn't help when you're trying to drain 4 train stations at equal rate

[magic island]

The way I'd do it is to start with 4 stacked splitters. Then you get a column of 4 outputs on the left, 4 on the right, and 4 in the middle. And just merge each column.

[prisma kraken]

that's essentially what i built

4 3-way splitters stacked, rest of it is just merging them back together

[autumn relic]

is there a way to see which alt recipes ive unlocked?

is there a list somewhere?

[wind spade]

codex

[autumn relic]

without searching one by one?

[true junco]

Not really.

You can search item by item and itll tell you all the relevant alts for it, but thats it as far as i know.

[fringe pawn]

Upload your save file to the interactive map

That'll get you all sorts of spoilers

[autumn relic]

ty guys, yeah i saw the interactive map. didnt know if 1.0 added something

thanks guys

[spare jolt]

i have many, many, many, many, many regrets.

[pure crow]

Wait I do this all the time, you mean I'm getting bonus headlift from this without realizing? o-o

I know the fluid's capable of overflowing a tiny amount from isolated tests (it's like 0.1m levels of small) but I've never seen it overflow by that much.

[magic island]

maybe it's some sort of positive feedback thing? like, once the fluid gets raised up to a high point in multiple pathways, they start contributing that headlift back to the system below

[proud totem]

Exactly my hypothesis

[magic island]

and since fluids can go a little above the headlift cap, the above-cap fluid in one pipe raises the cap in the other pipes, and so forth

[proud totem]

There is still a point of diminishing returns as it isn't infinite, but it is still something that exists

[proud totem]

That one I did not know, but would probably explain it

[steel knot]

Anyone have an aluminum electrode scrap production they like? I just unlocked electrode scrap, sloppy alumina, and pure aluminum ingots and want to set up my aluminum processing at last

[heavy gust]

how many fuel rods can a nuclear plant holt?
im halfway done with setting up a manifold before the thought occured that it might take ages to fill

[steel knot]

0.1/min

[heavy gust]

thats the burn rate

[proud totem]

Though now that I am thinking about it, from the digging I have done in the code headers, HL comes from pumps, gravity, and overfilling pipes (to generate a small amount of natural "pressure" as the devs called it). So it would make sense that overfilling gives some extra HL that then translates to other pipes

[steel knot]

So, a stack usually

You want to look up the rod stack size

[heavy gust]

so 50

[steel knot]

50

I think balancing makes sense for nuclear facilities

[heavy gust]

very much so

maybe ill do an injection maifold to speed up the process.

[magic island]

yes, it can take hours for the plants to fill and balance a manifold on their own

[heavy gust]

im too far into making the maifold to revert it

[steel knot]

True, just let it run on empty for a bit and prime it with your stacks

[heavy gust]

injecting every row should speed it up a lot

[steel knot]

How many reactors are you going for?

[quiet breach]

When you guys are doing bigger sized builds for ingots - do you use the alts that maximize resources or convenience? Some of the alts can be a pain vs sacrificing more resource by a little to make it a little easier

[ember fractal]

My plan is 72 nuclear reactors. Should I do balanced or manifold?

[heavy gust]

63

12.6 fuel rods

8 by 8 grid -1

[ember fractal]

Balanced is probably easier when you have each manufacturer feeding a few reactors directly

Rather than output manifold all manufacturers onto a single belt

[heavy gust]

yeah but too late now, im just gonna inject some from the front into the back

[tidal dock]

Personally, I use original recipe for Alumina Solution to keep pipe simple and also for Silica, Then I make extra Silica from Quartz and use Foundry to make Aluminum Ingot.

[ember fractal]

I usually do the sloppy -> electrode -> pure ingot chain

You could sloop the electrode refinery for extra scrap

[prisma kraken]

this is the way

i am however eyeing quartz purification as a way of kicking off some extra silica to boost alum production

seems kind of good

[raw halo]

I know what it is now

[prisma kraken]

i kind of figure that regardless of whether i end up with extra silica or extra crystal from it, there's a sink in either aluminum or pink diamonds for it

[ember fractal]

I do have distilled silica chain going. It makes 4,500 quartz crystal and 8,100 silica I believe

[prisma kraken]

sounds right, that's a big build

[ember fractal]

Yes, it actually needs quite a bit of nitric acid

Well, nothing crazy

[prisma kraken]

that's 7200 raw!

[ember fractal]

Yah, I have 6 belts of 1,200 raw coming in

I figured it's the best yield to get both crystals and silica

[pulsar notch]

My supercomputer production uses the cheap silica recipe because limestone is plentiful

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it eats limestone for breakfast though, lol

[ember fractal]

Not a fan of that one the cheap silica

[prisma kraken]

the expenditure of limestone isn't the problem, it's the logistical headache of it all

[ember fractal]

Yeh bringing like 8k limestone together into one factory is a headache

[pulsar notch]

That's fine, limestone is local, the quartz comes from the demon cave, so making quartz go further is all upside

[prisma kraken]

i've played that game in past game versions, and like it isn't fun to build

might be a little easier now with 1200 belts, but playing the game of filling 10 780 belts with limestone and then merging the remainders together wasn't nice to build

[magic island]

purification/distilled works well with making concrete at the same location

ie, use byproduct water for wet concrete, use excess silica product for fine concrete

[prisma kraken]

hadn't thought of that, but makes sense

[raw halo]

so the game reminds you to drink water now...

huh

[tidal dock]

Since I have extra sulfur and nitrogen, I probably need to setup Quartz Purification, too.

[raw halo]

I'm making a skyveyor

this way I can have pure resource coming from the hole and have it move across the path in a way so that my terran vehicles won't be fucked up by the conveyor

[woeful knoll]

they purification is nice u use less ore for more resources

[unborn dome]

How many supercomputers/min is a decent number to aim for for endgame? Is 5/min too much?

[prisma kraken]

you don't need many besides for building

[ember fractal]

5 is good I think

[prisma kraken]

3/min for neuralQ thingies and then however many biochem sculptors you want

[unborn dome]

Ah nice. Is there a meta alt to use? None of them seem to stand out in particular to me.

[prisma kraken]

the OC supercomp recipe is good for making them, as it is assembler & cheap to sloop

if you're building them in bulk for some reason, the superstate recipe is preferable b/c it uses lots less aluminum

[unborn dome]

Oh damn, I didn't even notice it was via assembler. That would remove supercomputers from the computer factory entirely, and I'd probably do them in the RCU factory instead.

(The RCU factory which I haven't built yet... not sure on recipe for that yet either)

[prisma kraken]

you still need computers to make ACU/ADS

[unborn dome]

Oh yeah, I'm still making a computer factory, just don't need to size it to build supercomputers inside.

[prisma kraken]

i think probably the way to go is to put the effort into oscillators instead and kick off what you need with some stout oscillator & hsc production

[unborn dome]

That's for the Radio Control System RCU alt?

[prisma kraken]

rcu's are weird

[unborn dome]

Or wait, you said HSC, that's Radio Connection Unit

[prisma kraken]

i'm favoring the alt that takes heatsinks & hsc's for them

but you do still need oscillators for endgame stuff regardless, they're used in the superpos oscillators

[unborn dome]

Yeah Radio Connection Unit seems to synergize decently with OC Supercomputer and the cooling system mats.

[prisma kraken]

but at some point you're going to be trying to centralize the high-end parts to store & sink regardless, it isn't hard to hang a couple of machines that cherry pick from the sink lines to make some of the more expensive things

i am planning to ultimately use superstate comp for making supercomps for a continuous production goal, but in the mean time, having some batteries lying around and making use of OC supercomp for building needs is sort of what i'm doing

(i kind of rushed through the game completion stuff using adhoc box factories and am now circling back to really build stuff)

[bronze kestrel]

Is there any big or worth burnrate difference between normal fuel and turbo fuel for drones? Its either 516/min Turbo fuel or 676/min normal fuel. Don't know what to pick.

[ember fractal]

You need RCUs for a bunch of stuff

[unborn dome]

Yeah I'm not even sure how I want to arrange things yet. I'm trying to avoid building one huge megafactory, everything so far is just happening on its own and dumping into the dimdepot, but at some point I need to start moving stuff like plastic and rubber around for stuff coming up soon.

[ember fractal]

My strategy is to make tons of Crystal Oscillators and tons of Radio Control Units. That will allow me to easily produce a lot of other parts.

[prisma kraken]

one of the things you'll realize pretty quickly when you start looking at the t9 cool stuff™️ is that you end up needing tons of pasta

[bronze kestrel]

Will answer myself. I Think it will be worth it. Should have wiki'd in the first place

[prisma kraken]

each pasta is 2 rcu + 1 fmf + 600 copper ore, lol

[unborn dome]

How many pastas should I be aiming for? Like as far as sizing my RCU requirements.

[prisma kraken]

really depends on what you want to build

the portals take 0.2 pasta/min to power

ficsonium recycling is i think (don't quote me on this) 1 pasta for each plut rod you burn

and then there's the balistic warp elevator part

[unborn dome]

Hmm so maybe 5-6 pastas/min?

[prisma kraken]

probably a good target if you're not doing nuclear

[unborn dome]

Oh I was going to do nuclear lol. So maybe 10?

[prisma kraken]

even with nuclear, that's optional if you sink plut rods instead of burning them

or decide to create a superfund site with the waste 😄

[magic aurora]

3600 rocket fuel supplied me till the end of the game

idk why people bother with nuclear

[prisma kraken]

i made it to the end on 12 gw of coal + 40gw of turbofuel plus 7 apa's, lol

[unborn dome]

Something to build. I was debating if I wanted to do rocket fuel power at all. Feels too OP.

I'm just building fuel power atm, as an upgrade to coal, but might do nuclear for the next round of power upgrades.

[magic aurora]

Man single slooped accelerator eats like 30GW XD

[ember fractal]

Nuclear is not required, but it's a fun project

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm a little bummed that they made rocket fuel so good

[unborn dome]

I'm not going to be surprised if rocket fuel gets nerfed at some point. Like more/different input mats.

[magic aurora]

well, ut eats A LOT of sulfur

And sulfur is limited supply

[prisma kraken]

feels like the game should really push you to make nuclear if you want to power a big factory

[magic aurora]

Like 10400 per minute per whole map

[prisma kraken]

i challenge you to use all the sulfur and THEN tell me that 'there's only 10400'

the old map limit was 6700 and that was plenty

[magic aurora]

I used like 5k for fuels when i was doing it

[astral hornet]

Oh but it does work? Nice. I realized I can still have my blue crater factory and have a fuel distribution depot in the center provided by train 😅

[ember fractal]

What's the max rocket fuel possible?

[prisma kraken]

you can get 120gw of rocket fuel power off of 600 sulfur, 900 crude and 800 nitrogen. what else do you need it for besides nuclear (which max by my calculations would top out at around 3000/min)

[copper seal]

why is my train jittering off the rails whenever i try to move it?

[unborn ermine]

Yeah they stick around to feed into the port.
I havent used drones much so the menu is rather complex if you start mass delivering.

[prisma kraken]

sometimes rails connect badly to another spot nearby and it leads to like trains that teleport

[ember fractal]

I'm thinking if someone wants to go pure rocket fuel, no nuclear

How much power would that make?

[copper seal]

how though? D: its just a straight, right out of the station

[prisma kraken]

probably a gw or two

idk, there's a lot of oil on the map, but you're probably going to want to use some of it for diamonds

[copper seal]

and it only happens when i have WASD held down, it doesn't happen when i let go of it

[unborn ermine]

think about how terrifying it is to calc the SAM-> uranium
that but nitrogen

[prisma kraken]

*tw or two

it looks like about the max you can make from nuclear with recycling and smart slooping is 1.875 tw

[copper seal]

maybe a better angle

it snaps back to the rails as soon as i let go of W/A/S/D

[prisma kraken]

seems like your rail didn't build right and snapped to something weirdly, delete a few of the rail segments and rebuild them

i've been noticing some jank when i'm building rails, honestly

2:3 balancer

[raw halo]

imagine if we could make 3d printers in this game

[copper seal]

nope

[unborn ermine]

nice, at least it dosent look like a belt clipping monster

[prisma kraken]

idk, maybe save & reload?

[copper seal]

wait i fixed it

its alright

[haughty badge]

Is there a way to connect that station to this station, but also have it still loop round? Can't seem to connect both

[prisma kraken]

now the fun is this is a 4:3

maybe stacking the sides would be better, idk

[toxic hemlock]

Is there any rule of thumb for when I should start using a second freight car for a given product?

[magic island]

if the platform needs to move more than 1 belt/pipe's worth, start considering it

[copper seal]

what kind of belt?

im literally just setting up a train myself ;p

[toxic hemlock]

I guess I should've stated that that was a given. If I have 780 in to a train buffer and 780 out, will any reasonable train length cause bottlenecks? I know to do the double belt buffer thing.

And does this answer change once I get 1200 belts?

[wind spade]

I personally like the rule of "one car per belt"

[magic island]

the throughput interruption is proportionate to whatever speed belt you have hooked up

so it's simplest to talk about platform throughput in terms of number of belts

[unborn ermine]

So say if I was in Phase 4 I would generally want 2 cars for 1560/min ingot delivery?

[toxic hemlock]

That has been my operating assumption

[astral hornet]

Yep. Same. I have one quartz output station that has two belts input on a single platform, but there's multiple trains stopping there.

[prisma kraken]

for 50 & 100 stack items, the car capacity can quickly become too small for the 1-belt-per-car guidance

i.e. for ore, i limit what a car carries to 600/min

[proud totem]

I usually do a belt and a half's worth instead of just 1 belt. But it will eventually depend on stack size and belt speed. Probably won't be able to do 1800/min to a car 😅

[unborn ermine]

Yeah I was debating what to do for my copper ingots for aluminum plant.
I planned to deliver 1560/min if possible.

[wind spade]

in that case you do multiple trains

[proud totem]

But I have been having success with 720 ore/min to a car

[wind spade]

I meant it as "one belt per platform"

[prisma kraken]

right

[proud totem]

Oh yeah, multiple trains to solve that one

[prisma kraken]

at some point, either b/c your rate is too high or your round trip is too long, you'll need a 2nd train on a route

[snow maple]

my rule of thumb is 4 stacks per car per min for half map trips, 3 stacks per car for longer

[proud totem]

Though with multiple trains and higher speeds you'll probably want to go with greeny's suggestion of 1 belt/platform. Each train adds a stop which is idle time loading from buffer -> platform

[prisma kraken]

i prefer limiting ore to 600 because it gives a little more round trip time before that becomes a necessity

[proud totem]

And the more idle time, the bigger overhead you need to compensate

[prisma kraken]

having extra train cars on a single train is cheaper logistically than adding more trains

i do both, but i've really been sticking to 600/min for ore & ingots

[proud totem]

Also probably keeps traffic down. I'm starting to run into that right now. Hasn't actually affected anything yet aside from having more variable throughput rates, but the averages are still consistent

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the more trains you have, the more quixotic they get

[proud totem]

I might end up having to do a double lane/double floor design for the congested areas

Though I wonder if a double lane design would fix much, or if trains would all still just take 1 of the lanes

[prisma kraken]

keep in mind that train routing always chooses shortest path, not least blocked path

[proud totem]

Yeah, that's kinda what I was getting at

[prisma kraken]

i did something a bit unintentionally clever with my rails in this playthrough

[proud totem]

Though I wonder if I had lane-switches in each intersection and used path signals if they would be able to go around easier

At the very least turn lanes would be efficient

[proud totem]

What did you do?

[prisma kraken]

this is how i built the rails in blue crater

there's no turnarounds for the trains, but they can enter the loop from either direction

[proud totem]

Wait, are you using bi-directional stations then?

[prisma kraken]

nope, they just enter the loop going in the direction to the station that's their destination and then back out of the loop to where they're going

[proud totem]

Okay, so every train will end up (nearly) going around the entire loop when its done

Aside from the area between the two entrances

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but only a few on each one of the two rails

as i said it was unintentional design, had i planned it better with that understanding, i could have exploited it quite a bit more nicely to balance the traffic

[proud totem]

It seems just in general having larger loop arounds like this can be useful. Essentially can act as bypasses if a train doesn't need to stop at any of the stations in between somewhere

[prisma kraken]

i've thought about adding a loop around to it, but i haven't really seen a compelling reason for it, trip time around the crater isn't that long

i'm sharing because it was new for me as a design choice and has been working out pretty well

[plush swan]

realised a short while ago a way to "save" materials, when doing the more expensive conveyor belts, but still get their benefit.
split the high tier conveyor into multiple cheaper tiers, by having the start and end of the conveyor line be the high tier, to ensure the input/output keeps its desired material quantity. yea you still need the high tier ones, but that amount is so little its just an investment.

not sure how something so simple, never came to mind

[prisma kraken]

its a good idea when you're in an area like dune desert and slumming on mk2 belts, for sure

when i do DD starts, i usually resort to using a tractor to move stuff around for me

[plush swan]

gotta get that 120/m from pure coal

[plush swan]

thats one of the next tiers to go for💀
havent gotten far enough for it yet

[prisma kraken]

nb: mk3 belts are pretty cheap to make with said coal 😄

[proud totem]

At this point I just use MK4 for most things (unless a MK1 suffices)

[plush swan]

yep
thats why this is an alternative to the expensive ones when you havent unlocked the others yet (i too wont do the mk1 hastle when steel farm is running)

[proud totem]

Not looking forward to MK6 belts requiring 2 materials to build

[steel knot]

How do you set up your oil? Do you just produce plastic and use the petrocoke later?

[prisma kraken]

it isn't that bad, i just have a little build feeding into a pair of dim depots that eats a pure coal node, 2 normal iron nodes and a sam node

[plush swan]

where is the sam closest to dune
ive tried guides to find it
NEED THAT MAM TREE

[prisma kraken]

you want a spoiler for it?

[plush swan]

does the game reveal it at higher tiers? or do you have to find it yourself

[prisma kraken]

you have to find it, i honestly just found it last night... cave entrance is by the white square, you get jumped by 4 big spiders when you go in

really s***ty location to place that node, imho

[plush swan]

ofc its in a cave.... looked on the mf outside and couldnt find it

[plush swan]

well, dont really need it till later ig, so by then you already got the gear to handle it

[prisma kraken]

i was clearing the slugs out from that area last night (all done!). those caves are tricky to find the entrances to - generally there's a few bacon mushrooms right near an entrance

[plush swan]

good to know!

[prisma kraken]

but the sam in the starter biomes is all pretty well hidden

its like they put an impure node in each starting biome & then the rest is in the bauxite belt

[plush swan]

im just glad to get a damn node, cuz yk... unlocks scanning for em

[unborn ermine]

I went in there running around the map, slapped foundations and a miner, hope I can avoid the spooder spam when I eventually use all the nodes.

[spare jolt]

I wonder if they removed the sam deposits

Found plenty of any others but sam

[fringe pawn]

With the changes to the NF, I don't feel like it should have the 5 star resource diversity rating at the start screen any more.

[copper seal]

is it normal for my fuel gennies to just fluctuate on and off by like 1~2 machines?

its much better than before but some machines are still being starved

i'd say 80% of the time they're all on though,

[spare jolt]

Did you flood the system before starting the generators?

[copper seal]

yes

[amber jacinth]

The random SAM deposits? Yeah, those are gone

[copper seal]

and i have it going back on itself

[spare jolt]

Did you check your math? Do all the refineries get enough materials?

[copper seal]

it comes in at the top and then goes down and then at the end connects back to the top again

yes, its all 600m3 crude into 400m3 fuel into 20 generators burning 20m3 (20 x 20m3 = 400m3) fuel each

[spare jolt]

Is your Mk2 pipe used at its full capacity, 600 m3?

[copper seal]

pipe is only using 400m3 for fuel

the 600m3 crude is working fine, all the machines' internal buffers are full

[spare jolt]

Ahhh, mk2 still have troubles transporting at its full capacity, from what I saw in this chat

[amber jacinth]

mk2 pipes are fineeeeeeeeeee

[spare jolt]

Then if they do, i don't really know

[copper seal]

nah they're dogshit

you can make mk2 pipes work but you have to do plenty of workarounds

actually wait i was wrong

ye im using mk2 pipes, just for visual consistency

but there's only 200m3 running through them

[spare jolt]

I'm just wondering why they don't make it like 600.01 m3 while still showing 600 m3

[copper seal]

2x200m3

[magic island]

it's not the pipes that are faulty, it's how the system directs fluids around within the pipes

there's nothing bugged about an Mk2 pipe that prevents it from moving 600/min. It's just that the game is indifferent to where you want that fluid to go, and may waste time & throughput sloshing it around

[ancient halo]

Im going crazy trying to calculate how many Plotonium Fuel Rods I can make from the waste of 15 nuclearpowerplants ...

[copper seal]

thats just the explanation they came up eventually when they wanted to conclude "its not bugged!"

if your players, for years, think its bugged, and so do the devs

the system sucks

[amber jacinth]

I run 12 pipes of 600m3 rocket fuel with zero throughput issues, as well as 3 pipes of 600m3 crude also with no issues

[copper seal]

anyways

they're 600m3 pipes but i'm only running 200m3 through them

the pipe that i have 600m3 running through isn't having any issues

[amber umbra]

Are your generators perfect ratio to fuel production?

[copper seal]

i have 10 machines making 2x200m3 fuel each and somehow thats not enough for 2x10 fuel gens burning 20m3 each

i flooded the system first and it worked fine for a while, its probably been 2 hours until it started having issues

[amber umbra]

If you did set everything up correctly, it’ll eventually work correctly; ala give it like 2 hours. If you’re impatient, you can sloop the fuel production to speed up fully filling the fuel gen pipes.

Same idea as toggling off a few fuel gens to speed up filling

[copper seal]

like i said, it was working fine for 2 hours lol

[amber umbra]

You can say that, but it doesn’t change the advice

[proud totem]

Yeah, the whole "floating point errors prevented us from getting true 600" seemed somewhat inaccurate to me. Like, floating points at 600 still have plenty of precision.
I think it is more so this, liquid moving in pipes inefficiently causes dips below 600. Since we can't ever exceed 600, the average is therefore below 600. A loop solves this since it helps with those dips and effectively allows for 1200 flow depending on how you look at it

[copper seal]

but i do have it looped

[proud totem]

I think it was your argument above, but said something to the effect of when an earlier machine eats liquid, a later pipe flows some backwards, which prevents the earlier pipe from "needing" to flow at max

[copper seal]

and its happening with sub-300m3 flow in a 600m3 pipe

its just 200m3 fuel

[proud totem]

Are any of your machines producing fuel running at not 100% efficiency? If they are all at 100%, your system is probably still warming up

In my experience, it takes a while for a system to stabalize, especially with fluids

[unborn ermine]

Ever since doing the loops properly, I havent had any issues with fluid unless I split/use weird numbers of extractors(like low but not failing numbers), but they still work.

[proud totem]

And especially since you aren't even close to the 600 cap, I'm guessing it is either warming up or there is some other problem

Because even if the system was flooded, the generators themselves weren't. That's a lot of extra room that needs to get flooded

[copper seal]

they're at 100%, and it started warmed up lol

[proud totem]

And flooding can be tough if you are producing exactly as much as you are using. Typically when I start my fuel generators, I turn on about half of them, let them saturate, turn on some more, let them saturate, repeat until everything is on

[copper seal]

i filled all the crude pipes before turning the refineries on and i filled all the fuel pipes before turning the generators on

all my refineries have full buffers

[proud totem]

Were all the machines 100% full when you started. Not just the pipes but the gens themselves

[copper seal]

yes

[proud totem]

There is also the extra 5% (I think is the value, maybe 10%, either way) of overfill space that exists that is probably also requiring to be filled up

[copper seal]

anyways, i had plenty of power so i'm just turning off the generators and letting them all fill up again

[proud totem]

It is a hidden value (found from looking at the headers) that "extends" pipes and such by a percentage to help create HL

[unborn ermine]

When I flood my systems I try to do one of two things, a packager feeding in, or slooping machines.
Once I see producers stockpiling some fluid I quickly clean up my mess.

[proud totem]

Yes, do that. Generators are finicky, because fluids are finicky, but usually time will allow it to stabalize

[copper seal]

i have sub 2GW consumption right now that can be taken care of by bio generators and my coal powerplant lol

[proud totem]

There is probably also something about getting the fluid to move consistently. You are technically still starting from 0 movement, even if full. That movement has to propagate still

[copper seal]

ye i'm just doing it AGAIN

i did it before, i just hope i don't have to do it again in 2hrs

[proud totem]

If you do run into problems in 2hrs, before turning anything off, check every other machine in your setup for the 100% indicator. If any aren't, that will help narrow down the problem. If they all are 100% (like even back to the oil pump), then wait some more

[amber umbra]

Keep in mind, there are multiple other ways to introduce small production and/or flow issues w liquids. The 600 thing and filled pipes aren’t all of it.

[proud totem]

Ah, the overfill % is 40%, which is honestly quite a lot

So even if pipes look full, they may not actually be

Only once that overfill is filled for every pipe, junction, etc. will the system be stable. Plus probably some other stuff with the simulation

[copper seal]

well

unless it conjures that extra crude/fuel out of thin air that isn't happening

cause the machines eventually just stop working

[unborn ermine]

so tldr go back to what I said and see if producers are stockpiling

[proud totem]

It doesn't need to conjure it, it just needs to fill up

[copper seal]

refineries just stop producing if there is more than 46.1m3 fuel in its internal buffer

[proud totem]

Yes, see if producers are stockpiling, if they are they won't be at 100%. If they are starved, go back a step, and repeat all the way to your crude oil

[copper seal]

they're not

the buffers are emptying

though with sloshing its difficult to tell, i'd have to look at it for longer

but seems to be going down

also, it doesn't seem to start producing immediately when possible

it'll have 45.7m3 internal fuel and it will wait like 3~4 seconds before starting

like, say it has 43m3 internal fuel, it does a cycle and its at 47m3 internal fuel, it stops, if it then gets drained to 43m3 internal fuel again it will wait a few seconds before starting production again

i guess its sloshing

so anyways, if i start having issues again

i'll replace all the pipes i can with Mk1's regardless of visual consistency

if it then starts functioning properly, anyone saying Mk2 pipes are fine should be perma muted.

[unborn ermine]

When in doubt ask if anyone is willing to look at your save, I know a few people on here do that from time to time.

[copper seal]

And I must say, its not looking good for the "mk2 pipes are fine" crew

[unborn ermine]

I mean I have no issues

[copper seal]

50m3 buffer that was completely filled is emptying out into thin air

it should still be full considering its producing exactly as much as should be consumed

[unborn ermine]

The only times I had weird issues like this, feeding from below and forgetting that something was clocked slightly higher than it should be.

[copper seal]

i didn't touch clocks

pipes exiting the refineries are raised

then pass over all the fuel generators and loops back into itself, feeding into all the machines level

[wind spade]

they are fine if you build them correcly 🤷

[fringe pawn]

Which applies to all pipes, really.

All quirks have workarounds.

[proud totem]

I mean, draining from an output is fine. Stabilizing a pipe network requires fluid in addition to the fluid your gens use

Assuming you are producing enough fuel, a buildup of fuel in the refineries is what would be bad

[tidal dock]

that is a lot of refineries and still have an impure oil node to use.

[heavy gust]

just found out that the note feature apears to have a fairly small character limit

[spare jolt]

why do you need this much rubber

[tidal dock]

For alternative recipe that use rubber.
https://satisfactory.wiki.gg/wiki/Rubber

mainly mass produce radio units to make converison cubes.

[spare jolt]

bro decided to minmax rubber alt recipes, i see

[heavy gust]

thats a lot of rubber

[copper seal]

pretty certain i have

also its not even about "getting 600m3 through a pipe" which is what people are usually complaining about

[heavy gust]

you should loop back from the last generator to the first refinery

[copper seal]

im talking about buffers emptying out into thin air

[heavy gust]

and fill all the pipes and generators before turning it on

[copper seal]

the pipes were full when i turned them on and they're full now

again its not about howmuch m3 fuel i can push through it

its that fuel is just vaporizing

and all the internal buffers of the refineries are emptying

aside from the crude oil input

[heavy gust]

id do the loopback

something like that

[tidal dock]

one of my favorite rubber recipe. it makes me 🤣 everything time.

[copper seal]

where does the wiring even come from

[tidal dock]

exactly but it save me other resources.

[pure crow]

FICSIT patented top secret technology.

[tidal dock]

can make circuit board from just oils is so funny.

[patent blaze]

[amber umbra]

Carbon nanotubes and magic

[copper seal]

i still think its a BS workaround just to fix something inherently broken but sure

i have multiple arrays so lets test it

[heavy gust]

yes i agree that it shouldnt be necessary

but it is

[copper seal]

one of my current setup, which links last and first fuel generator together
one looping back to first refinery instead
and one where i just replace the pipes with Mk1 pipes

[toxic hemlock]

Can fluids get "desynced" at distance? I've got an aluminum factory set up with separate waste and fresh water and it's still backing up

[tidal dock]

go check your entire chain and make sure you don't have a hidden mk1 pipe or disconnected pipe somewhere.

[copper seal]

my current setup doesn't function properly

if the loopback to first refinery works, its a decent fix
but if the Mk1 pipes work, the Mk2 pipes are just broken and people should stop being Mk2 pipe apologists

[spare jolt]

meanwhile there is a computer with a solid frame made of rubber or thin air, apparently

[unborn dome]

Maybe the frame is made out of circuit boards lol

[tidal dock]

and those circuit boards were made by using rubber and petrocokes.

i'll be using the borrom recipe and crystal disc.

AI limitter is probably the only legit one in the whole produciton chain.

[copper seal]

thats not it

trust me i've been working on this stuff for like 4 days now

i even deleted a 3 day long oil platform project i was working on because i just didn't have enough space and it wouldn't work out the way i wanted to

that one also had issues with delivering fuel

but it was worse

current one is better but its still not 100% efficient

also, again.

it won't matter if there is a mk1 pipe because the pipes that are having issues are only transporting 200m3

[tidal dock]

all that tells me that you didn't do your pipe right 😄

[copper seal]

my 600m3 crude oil pipes are doing fine

which i have 3 of

[spare jolt]

it feels like it should be a very subtle gag - every electronics should have an alt recipe which involves rubber and uses nothing that can be used to make the frame

[copper seal]

2 pure 250% nodes and 2 normal nodes also 250% and then combined together

those are working fine, the pipes im having issues with only carry 200m3 of fuel

[ionic pumice]

I made this, is there any similar resource already up on the net?

[copper seal]

Satisfactory Calculator right?

[tidal dock]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[ionic pumice]

see, I've been having issues with satisfactory tools

it simply refuses to calculate anything fuel related

[nova steppe]

My Train on the right says that the destination is unreachable due to a signaling error, these are all block signals, how come it cant reach? even if the other station is able to reach to same station

[ionic pumice]

that's what I get

I've looked through the recipes, didn't really see any problem

[nova steppe]

you have to enable the alternate recipe in the recipes tab

and you need to add fuel to your inputs

probably

[ionic pumice]

wait

compacted coal maybe

that did it

welp, ty for helping with that issue ^^

[nova steppe]

np, can you perhaps help with mine?

[ionic pumice]

I started playing early October, but let's hear it

[nova steppe]

.

[fringe pawn]

I might now have a few rock formations with over 100 hog remains stuck in them due to the cliff/nuclear hog teleporting issue.

[ionic pumice]

o.o

[copper seal]

can you delete them with the interactive map?

[fringe pawn]

I'd more likely move them and collect them if there's a way to do it en masse. I'm not worried about it, it's just amusing.

[copper seal]

ah lol

[fringe pawn]

It'd be too tedious to do one by one.

[copper seal]

thought maybe it was causing lag for you or something, but also it was a little bit of a question for me

i know the interactive map can see boxes, so i wonder if it can see animal remains too

[ionic pumice]

there is that one mod that adds a command line to pick up nearby loot, but I can't think of anything other than mash E in vanilla

[copper seal]

also if you use the Interactive Map's mass delete to delete structures then it has an option to leave a box near you, maybe thats possible if you try deleting the hog remains, if it can even do that

[fringe pawn]

I might look into it down the road, at some point it's tempting just because factoring sloops, that's over 1000 capsules sitting around basically.

[copper seal]

yep

tbh im a bit tired of alien dna capsules lol

[fringe pawn]

I'm plugging along while I route power around the map and so forth.

[ionic pumice]

oh, btw, that spreadsheet I made gives you a result based on the amounts of oil available
satisfactory tools seems to do the opposite, is there a way to make it calculate your output based on your inputs?

[fringe pawn]

There's a few places particularly affected by the weird teleporting hog thing.

[wind spade]

SFTools can do both (but it's generally not very recommended to start from raw ores)

[ionic pumice]

I was trying to make a power plant with the ten oil nodes in there, and didn't want to hand-calculate how many gens I'd end up with

[tidal dock]

just limit your resource input.

[ionic pumice]

ooh

[copper seal]

i mean thats the only time i would still go for capsules i think

well i mean, go out of my way to

i'll run into monsters to get HD's and unlock new nodes etc. but i wouldn't go out of my way to farm dna capsules anymore

i also got most of the stuff i already wanted from the shop anyways

[fringe pawn]

I already have 2 golden nuts. But why not 3. 😛

[ionic pumice]

but then again, it'll try to reach the output I have to enter, right? what if I want to squeeze every last drop with those oil extractors?

[heavy gust]

Is the fused wire + fused quickwire Combo worth looking into?
does it save on both resources when used in combination?

[wind spade]

no, you change it to maximise mode

[ionic pumice]

oh that's great

ty!

is there any way to include the actual power generators in there?

[tidal dock]

example of me trying to get max rubber but include certain amount of plastic and petrocokes given 600 crude oil as input.

[thorn trellis]

is this too close to the conveyor and other rail?

[ionic pumice]

ic

[amber umbra]

@thorn trellis I think you can’t park there mate.

[thorn trellis]

the red doesnt matter the rail length is smaller

im just worried about it crashing

like is this too close

[amber umbra]

If it’s the belt, just try deleting the belt and test. Seems kinda too short a track to place a loco also.

[ionic pumice]

he's not asking about how to place it down

[thorn trellis]

it will be longer i just am worried if the two will crash when moving and stuff

[ionic pumice]

he's asking if the belt will cause the train to crash

[thorn trellis]

and if the two rails r too close

in theory they arent

[ionic pumice]

I honestly don't have any idea

[amber umbra]

I’m saying rails are fiddly. You need to be able to rapidly test for yourself. I personally use a full foundation gap.

[ionic pumice]

I'd say place down some more rails and take that locomotive for a spin

[thorn trellis]

i need both train lines basically running at the exact same time and place but that obviously probably wont happen

[tidal dock]

train need minimum of half foundation seperation so you don't have signal problem. Otherwise, they can be next to each other.

[thorn trellis]

two dif lines so it should be fine

[prisma kraken]

most of my rails maintain an 8 meter spacing without issue

i think you can get a little closer together than that on straight-aways, but on curves it gets too snug

if you're in doubt about the rail placement, build a stationary train on one rail and drive the other one in a choo and see if they collide

[thorn trellis]

this is also pretty tight lmao

but this spot makes sense to put the track

[prisma kraken]

well, trains don't collide with anything other than other trains, so you're safe with buildings and decorations, terrain, etc

[thorn trellis]

yea

its not touching any of the sides anyway

[prisma kraken]

as long as a train isn't entering the hitbox of another train, it shouldn't have a problem

if you're like most of us in this game, trains clipping into other stuff will drive you bonkers, so you often want to give things a little clearance for turning and inclines

[thorn trellis]

well technically its not clipping cuz theres like a tad bit of space around it

so it works

[amber umbra]

I’ve been using a 3x3 inner and 5x5 outer curve. Interesting seeing a wider set of curves for 2 track 90 degree curve.

Looks like 4x4, 6x6 hmmm

Maybe

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it actually builds a lot nicer at larger radius - its just you need space for it

[amber umbra]

I’ve always found it interesting how curves in rails are rather unconstrained. Similar concepts in Factorio.

[thorn trellis]

so if i have trains in the paths what goes down the center now

[prisma kraken]

i have mostly been laying tracks to try to contour to the terrain

...its going to be a pain to make them all looked finished when i get there 😦

[amber umbra]

I know that spot. That’s uhh… where I said “nah” to building rails through terrain

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it's a painful spot

[amber umbra]

Yours looks very crisp. Good stuff.

[prisma kraken]

thx

using road barriers to guide the next foundation for a rail curve at their 15 degree angle seems just about right to make gradual adjustments

[amber umbra]

Sounds about right. I get too particular with things, so need to limit myself to more “flat” ish setups to avoid things taking too long.

So I do 90, 45 degree turns. And straight inclines.

[prisma kraken]

you can even do some curved inclines if you can tolerate a tad of clipping

[amber umbra]

Although makes getting Al down uh problematic.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i really wish the map had some way of making easy east/west ramps down from the pink forest

you have the rocky desert ramp which is ok to deal with, and you have the other egress point into lake forest from crater lakes, but there really needs to be some other way

ofc you can always do a big rail spiral, but i don't care for those so much

[amber umbra]

Yea, I’m kinda leaning towards just droning it down or using belts to drop to the lower rails. Or free style some rails up/down. in flux.

I’ve been refactoring my crystal oscillators to include RCUs in the same location. So Al transport is on the mind.

Breaking out the pen, paper as I do.

[prisma kraken]

nice

i'm using up the tf bauxite first

after that, i think i'll probably hit the swamp baux for FMF's since it is the exact amt i need for them

that should leave me all of the PF bauxite for trigons and sheets

the value in that is i don't need copper for making the trigons and the sheets won't need tons either

[idle stirrup]

Anyone find any good workarounds for the mk6 throughput bug? I'm playing on a dedicated server, so not sure the framerate change will fix it

[amber umbra]

One workaround is to treat them as a number <1200/minute. (obvious answer that is unsatisfying)

[tidal dock]

I have mine Network set to Ultra, Server FPS to 60 and increase the update array size to 4096 instead of default 2048 and I seems to not having problem with mk6 belt.

[prisma kraken]

i see the problem even on single player

except in the case of miners, you can always split stuff into 2 mk5 belts

[idle stirrup]

Thats what I did - mk6 directly into a splitter that then splits into 2 mk5s. Problem is, every interval or so the miner accumulates 1 bauxite

so over time it will clog to 100, stall, empty its inventory, and continue - so you don't get the full 1200

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i know

build in a way that you can tolerate the pause i guess

tbh, i think that's something they're going to need to address as people's aluminum builds start crapping out

[amber umbra]

Is there an estimate on the effective item rate? I assume it’s like 1195/minute or higher.

[prisma kraken]

it depends on how many stutters you get due to fps lag

[amber umbra]

Interesting

[idle stirrup]

I don't know why FPS lag would factor in when I'm playing on a server. The belt computations won't be client side in that point

so I'm not sure how reducing your client's framerate will help in this case

[ember fractal]

I saw a bunch of posts and videos showing this problem.

[amber umbra]

Kinda not ideal. New feature of 1200 item/minute belts -> isn’t actually 1200item/minite.

[prisma kraken]

i mean, i'm seeing it with just plain jane mk3 miners directly into a factory - belt misses an item now and then

[opal pivot]

I think I got a bit carried away...

[opal pivot]

wait, what???

oh, damn

[quartz violet]

i said screw it and built rails in a straight line going off a cliff right there

[glossy wagon]

How can i have 120 if the output is only 100?

[ionic pumice]

that 120 would be the max amount of items/min on that belt

although I don't touch load balancers, even with a stick, so I might be wrong

[prisma kraken]

that isn't a balancer, it's a 1:5 prime splitter

[glossy wagon]

im trying to get a 60/40 split from 100 output

[prisma kraken]

and the math takes 100 input and splits it into 40+60

[unborn ermine]

100/5 then the splits

[ionic pumice]

squares for mergers and diamonds for splitters?

[quartz violet]

I think it's coming from the extra 20 going back into the first merger

[wind spade]

one splitter can do that

[glossy wagon]

ahhhh i think you're right

[quartz violet]

the math is kind of off

[glossy wagon]

Care to explain?

[prisma kraken]

the 6-way split in the schematics into 20's is incorrectly labeled; it is instead a 6 way split of 100 into 16.66666

[wind spade]

one splitter would split 50/50, so the side that needs 40 would fill up, overflowing the 10 extra to the 60 side

[prisma kraken]

which actually means it turns into a 6-way split of 100+16.66666

[quartz violet]

splitters will self balance when their outputs fill up. if one output clogs it will evenly distribute between the other 2 outputs. when one of those clogs it will just use the one output for everything

[prisma kraken]

after a few cycles of input, it will normalize to 100 in and 40+60 out, but it takes a few feedback cycles to converge

[glossy wagon]

I don't know why i make this more complicated than it needs to be... thanks guys... i go numb when i see numberse

[prisma kraken]

because it is difficult to reason about

your diagram would be more clearly understood if it showed a series of iterations of the loop so you could see how it changes over time to converge

instead it tries to collapse the time dimension into a static diagram

which just gets fricking confusing

[idle stirrup]

So messing around with the mk3 miner on the bauxite, I'm only able to reliably get 1100 out of the 1200 of the throughput

[glossy wagon]

the diagram i made online in a tool for satisfactory.. you tell it what you want to split and its SUPPOSEd to make it easy for you

40 going left for canisters, 60 right for circuit boards

[toxic hemlock]

I understand that previously, Drones only used batteries and used a fixed 5 every time. Now they consume fuel upon takeoff. If I use a fuel type that gives more power than is necessary, e.g. a uranium fuel rod, will that actually last several trips, or does a drone eat fuel every trip? I hope/assume the former.

[keen moss]

Is there any specific way to place more than one train station or just following the rule of "there are railways connecting them" is enough? By "specific way" I'm more referring to some super efficient hidden method. Or an easy one to handle :)

• I think that at least 3 train stations is good, but the more the merrier

[vapid gorge]

probably 'simpler' ways that are more tidy?

like keep stations off the main track is a big one

but organising location of factories and recipes so that they cater to the local resources so you have to make less stations is probably more 'efficient' in lots of ways.

[indigo wren]

can anyone check if this is right?

[wind spade]

I'd recommend residual rubber instead of residual plastic - makes more per resin

[indigo wren]

noted, but are numbers okay?

im using alternate heavy oil residue

[quartz violet]

obsidian

wait how do you label the arrows?

[indigo wren]

you double click them

[amber jacinth]

It lasts several hours, yep.

[toxic hemlock]

Will I get an alert when a drone has no fuel?

[vapid gorge]

plug your outputs and recipes into this and double check https://www.satisfactorytools.com/1.0/production

[amber jacinth]

Just that it won't take off from its port

[toxic hemlock]

Yeah that's sufficient

So long as it persists on the map

I'm in between some fuel stuff and want to just pump a handful of manually crafted fuel rods into a drone until I've got it automated

Is there any convenient way to automate distributed powering drones with fuel rods that doesn't involve building up hundreds of surplus fuel rods?

[leaden cosmos]

Fill the drone port up with all but 1 stack of items. And loop the filler back with a smart splitter. This way there is only 2 stacks + belt length of rods

[indigo wren]

anybody wanna share train tracks / curves blueprints ?

[copper seal]

there is a alt recipe tierlist on reddit

is it good, or is there another one? or is there a list of ones i definitely should pick?

[leaden cosmos]

What was there scoring metric 😄

[copper seal]

its.. complicated

it should be the first link if you search it

[leaden cosmos]

Yep and thats the issue. This is well within the multiple optimisation metric issue. Where you can optimise for one. But not all. It will be a kinda possibility space depending on which ratio of metrics best suits you

[copper seal]

ye its just that i have a bunch of hard drives lined up and scanned and i want to know which would be good picks lol

for example i have the 2 iron ingots + 2 coal = 3 steel one

or some weird alt turbo fuel recipe

[leaden cosmos]

Which help the most with what your currently doing 🙂

[copper seal]

stuff like that

[leaden cosmos]

So are you making steel or turbofuel 🙂

[copper seal]

i am making steel, no turbo fuel yet at least

i can, i just haven't yet, i'd need to get coal from elsewhere for that ;p

i have alot of scanned HD's so im not sure which are useful and which aren't

[leaden cosmos]

Which is useful to you right now 😄 there are plenty of harddrives

[prisma kraken]

woohoo

[copper seal]

idk, cause some are just pure dookie

[leaden cosmos]

If neither are. Let them sit

[prisma kraken]

just about every recipe has some niche use

at this point the only recipes that are pretty trashy are fine concrete & dark ion fuel

[leaden cosmos]

Biochar? Biocoal? 😅

[prisma kraken]

if you make a weapons plant that works off of critter drops, they have a use, especially now since the converter can change that into everything else

idk if you've ever done the math on how much coal they actually make, but very little in the way of critter bits will fill an ISC with coal

i've used that in past game releases to be able to make ammo in places where i've not had easy access to coal, so meh, it has a use

[unborn ermine]

I forgot to check something related to that btw
there was a bug that made charcoal and biocoal available after you get compact coal, bypassing the hard drives.

like I could use them, even though I have them both saved on a HD roll (together )

[prisma kraken]

still exists, iirc, unlocking turbofuel makes both available

[unborn ermine]

oh its turbo

[prisma kraken]

maybe it is just the compacted coal gate before tf

but the bug still exists. what i wish is it would take the recipes out of the lottery,lol

[unborn ermine]

Either way its ironic because they have the "least value" from what most people see.

[prisma kraken]

no, fine concrete i think is still last place, lol

i do think leached copper is right up there as well

[unborn ermine]

Oh quick food for thought, im going to be dedicating a mk2 pipe of nitrogen for quartz stuff.
gunna have 360/min leftover after this, silica heavy or crystals?

[prisma kraken]

what are you asking?

[unborn ermine]

What in general seems like a good dump for the rest.

[ember fractal]

Dump the rest of nitrogen?

[prisma kraken]

ahh like 360 raw - what to convert it to

[ember fractal]

Oh

[unborn ermine]

This is also the rocky desert, forgot to mention.

[prisma kraken]

so here's my thinking on it all

you're going to want whatever crystal you need for oscillators and/or rcu's

[ember fractal]

and potentially pink diamonds

[prisma kraken]

once you've tallied that and taken care of the silica for HSC's, the natural sinks for it are aluminum or pink diamond

[unborn ermine]

Most likely oscillators as I still have the two pure down in dangle spires(near by my aluminum)

Oh wait I ligit need to remind myself the recipes

[toxic hemlock]

Just for fun, has anyone calculated the absolute maximum ficsonium fuel rod output? The calculator doesn't seem to process waste

[prisma kraken]

toss excess silica into making alum ingots, toss excess crystal into diamon

[ember fractal]

Fused quartz crystal recipe is also not bad in this location:

[unborn ermine]

Im in phase 4 and computers arent even made yet

[prisma kraken]

kinda sorta

[unborn ermine]

ehhh

[prisma kraken]

it looks to me like the max ficsonium rod/min you can make is 225 if you still want stuff leftover for a factory you want to power - that uses all the sloops on the map on the fics rods and reanimated sam

from there, you can work backward to it being 22.5 plut rods generating waste and whatever you need from the uranium chain to make enough waste for that

different recipes combos if you hold the plut rod output at 22.5 will cap you out at 1.875 tw of power

[unborn ermine]

Just using my remainder, 360/min, fused seems so gross

[prisma kraken]

i think you can make 60 ufr's and use the least efficient plut rod recipes to stay there

which means 2500 raw uranium - gotta burn some sam on conversion there but it is pretty modest

there's other ways to shift the numbers around and get varying good & bad power yields

[raven lark]

for an overflow system, how do i fill a machine without creating the item?

[prisma kraken]

i've been playing with the numbers there a lot and trying to figure out something i want to build, and i'm probably going to be going for something like 300 or 600 uranium into ficsonium for a yield of about 400-500 gw

[prisma kraken]

drag it into the output slot?

[raven lark]

Oh... right... i forgot i could do that, what about liquids though?

[prisma kraken]

drag it here

no bueno with liquids sorry

[prisma kraken]

i think probably pure crystal is the easiest logistically

[unborn ermine]

yeah just sorting through recipes and seeing what I wanna make rn

[fringe pawn]

But what are you going to build that will use anywhere close to that power? I think Ficsonium would be more interesting if it were useful to nobody except two categories of people. The ones doing it for funsies who don't care about maximizing anything. And only the most hardcore optimizers going for maximum ticket points, by way of making Ficsonium dark matter positive overall, in such a way that it's better than AI servers and power shards for to generate dark matter for ballistic warp drives. In other words, Ficsonium becomes obviously good, but only in the absolute most high effort scenarios.

I maintain that it doesn't actually need to be touched though. I wouldn't mind because I find it disappointing right now. But I don't think it truly needs to change.

[prisma kraken]

well, it is definitely a 'for funsies' sort of thing

idk how making ficsonium would ever be more points. you can't sink the rods

[fringe pawn]

As it is now, never. It would need some sort of change like I just outlined. Where it produces tons of dark matter, and therefore you can make all your dark matter crystals without any diamonds or time crystals.

[prisma kraken]

what i find sort of disappointing is that there isn't really a 'max power' sort of ridiculous build you can do that would make even kibitz blush

[fringe pawn]

I actually like the idea that there isn't an obvious best solution

I think that's way more interesting

[prisma kraken]

yeah, right now the rods make half as much dark matter as you need to produce the ficsonium (ikea lamp), so the only way to get it dm neutral is to sloop either the colliders or encoders

if you sloop the colliders, you still have to make buttons of trigons, so really the only option for a max build is to sloop the encoders

*butt-tons

[fringe pawn]

Something to incentivize fertile uranium or more plutonium could have been interesting

[prisma kraken]

so yeah, they could have probably done something different with it all to make it more compelling

what they actually did was to make it so that making plut rods less efficiently is better

[fringe pawn]

Or to stick to rocket fuel

[prisma kraken]

i had fun working out the math and the problem

would be nice if it led to something ZOMG cool to build, but meh, can't have everything i guess

what it does allow you to do, and it probably is more where the nuclear meta will end up is taking 300 uranium and making 250 gw of power waste-free

[fringe pawn]

250GW with just rocket fuel doesn't even use much resources. And it will go up so much faster.

[prisma kraken]

yeah, well, again. needs nerf. kthxbye

i really think they'd have had a better game if they had released the t9 stuff in an update 10 and gotten some community feedback on it all

[fringe pawn]

At this point if any recipe revision happens, I'm going to question the 1.0 play test process.

[prisma kraken]

you mean 'we had a closed beta for a few weeks and in the period of time less than what people normally spend on the game, the feedback was positive'?

[fringe pawn]

People weren't going in starting from the beginning. I finished tier 9 in 2 days the first time.

[prisma kraken]

i'm sure which is even more reason why such testing probably wasn't the best way

there are a few recipe changes too in early game that i've found kind of bad as well

[unborn dome]

So based on my calculations, this can hold 400,000 kg of water at room temperature

[prisma kraken]

well gram = cm^3 of water = milliliter

[unborn dome]

1 meter cubed is 1000 liters, and it holds 400 meters cubed

[prisma kraken]

(incidentally, fluids don't expand or contract at different temperatures, it is only phase changes to liquid or solid that change their volume

[prisma kraken]

yeah, you're math checks out, i really think they should have made the fluid unit liter instead of m^3

[unborn dome]

Yeah even just volume-wise it's too big for that tank. The weight is insane though lol

[prisma kraken]

i kind of noticed that when i started placing extractors down en bulk for the first time and compared it to something like the Hoover dam, lol

[unborn dome]

I feel like they could've reduced all the fluids by an order of magnitude and it'd still make sense. I could believe the normal fluid buffer holding 40 m^3.

I guess it's just at the low end, there'd be a ton of decimal places instead

[prisma kraken]

i honestly think they meant liters and just oops on the dimension conversion

i actually filed a bug report asking for a relabel to cm^3

[unborn dome]

Yeah that could be it too, although I think that tank would be a lot bigger than 400 liters.

[prisma kraken]

one character...

[jovial jacinth]

@obsidian belfry how'd you get 2500 rocket? I only could get 2400 from a single pipe of 600....or was that more than 600 oil?

[prisma kraken]

maybe sloops?

[obsidian belfry]

I’m producing a weird amount to specifically get 2500 so logistics for burning the fuel is easier

[jovial jacinth]

ahh

[obsidian belfry]

i have the calculator thing i used lemme get it

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/planners/production/index/json/{"Desc_RocketFuel_C"%3A"2500"%2C"altRecipes"%3A["Recipe_Alternate_HeavyOilResidue_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_TurboBlendFuel_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_DilutedFuel_C"]}

[jovial jacinth]

I did 5 refineries of HOR into 4 blenders of Diluted Fuel into 4 blenders of Nitro Rocket Fuel into 72 fuel gens, that was my "discrete units" of 150 oil

I skipped Turbo, personally, but I have the Nitro alt unlocked

[obsidian belfry]

I don’t think i have nitro rocket fuel

[jovial jacinth]

oops, 144 gens per 150 oil

[verbal stream]

whats with the barf reaction on the atisfactory calc

[bleak ivy]

wouldn’t this be more annoying? 2400 is an even 4 mk2 pipes

[prisma kraken]

the default rocket fuel makes much more rf per resource if you use blended tf as intermediate, but it's rf, a little bit is enough, lol

[prisma kraken]

satisfactorytools.com is a much better calculator for the game

[jovial jacinth]

Depends on what resource, Nitro gives the max Rocket per Crude

[spare jolt]

why dark ion fuel though? if you use the recipe that compresses DMR into crystals by itself, it gives you free fuel

[verbal stream]

oh i use that, i thought it was a diff website lol

[obsidian belfry]

honestly could not tell you lmao

[prisma kraken]

well, it takes 2:1 compressed rf; you burn an aluminum ingot per fuel unit and it has such a large cycle yield that slooping it feels bad

satisfactory-calculator.com is great for the map, but the prod planner there isn't very good

[jovial jacinth]

can't speak to whoever emoted, but that layout from SCIM is really hard to follow compared to satisfactorytools

this is what I used for my layout....

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1299927940074700840/1299928349673783348/Rocket_Fuel.png?ex=6722f09e&is=67219f1e&hm=c908d43fbab92fa33d1d0aa4389d98c3e32cdd27618d4f79433013736ca4ba18&

[obsidian belfry]

It splits up into 5 groups of 500rf/min each going to 120 gens.

I might’ve just… wanted to make more power lol

[jovial jacinth]

Oh, no knocking your choice, I just was curious if I missed something that would have given me more rocket from a single 600 pipe

[obsidian belfry]

hmm I agree that’s much better but i like my calculators to represent the same spaghetti present in my factories

[jovial jacinth]

lol

[verbal stream]

yeah same i just got sonfused i thought that was satisfactorytools. gotta get some sleep

[prisma kraken]

i mostly use this for planning

[devout junco]

how to split that evenly across 15 power gens?

[prisma kraken]

clock them to 125 and split between 12 🙂

[obsidian belfry]

manifold and wait 500 years

[prisma kraken]

or 250 and split 6-way

[prisma kraken]

and die of radiation before the manifold fills 😉

[devout junco]

that's what i have going rn, it's crazy seeing the nuclear plants fluctuate the power so hard

[jovial jacinth]

lmao, I don't even know what that picture shows

[prisma kraken]

whenever you need to split into a multiple of 5, clocking to 125 or 250 changes the 5 into a 2 or 4

[bleak ivy]

i think the lower the input rate the more balancers favour you

[prisma kraken]

yeah, or when the stack size is 500

[bleak ivy]

also, if im already making a bunch of turbo fuel (in my case 1200/min) is this easy to retrofit into rocket fuel

[devout junco]

how does overclocking power gens work? does the input become exponentially higher? what's the exponential cost in doing that?

[bleak ivy]

linear

2.5 overclock is 2.5 the power and 2.5 the fuel

it’s just a way of condensing the amount of generators you need

[prisma kraken]

200% means 2x power and 2x fuel consumption

[devout junco]

i see, so unlike every other building, overclocking power gens is linear as opposed to exponential?

[bleak ivy]

yeah

its entirely qol, especially with fuel gens because placing 2.5x less of them is significant lol

[prisma kraken]

don't complain, you can go back to update 6 and play the game the old way

tl;dr: it sucked

[magic island]

it used to have a weirder formula that still ended up being linear, just with bizarre numbers

[night cliff]

Sorry guys I'm totally out of the subject but i'm wandering if someone have test the Highlift of a fluid from a fluid platform. Does it need a pump at the beginning?

[devout junco]

im not complaining? just asking to make sure if overclocking power has an exponential cost to it like everything else

also, what was update 6 lmao xD

[prisma kraken]

early access release, some of us have been playing the game for a few years now

[bleak ivy]

if you’re asking about fluid buffers its 8m for the normal one and 12m for industrial

[devout junco]

i played before update 2, dont remember much tho

[prisma kraken]

the old clocking behavior for generators was really dumb

[night cliff]

Was talking about Fluid platform for train. I'm sure it work like Buffer. Thank mate!

[prisma kraken]

you honestly had to like take a sqrt of something to figure out what to set the clock to to just double the power, lol

[bleak ivy]

mb, wiki says 12m for platform

[dusky panther]

Is it more efficient to use cast screws or steel screws?

[prisma kraken]

if you mean a fluid train station, there's a correct way to build it with a buffer that allows continuous flow when trains load/unload

[bleak ivy]

btw are we supposed to be able to sloop packagers

the area in the ui is there but no input

[night cliff]

Sound interesting! What about?

[prisma kraken]

steel is much more efficient on iron, but works in messy ratios for all but a handful of recipes (copper rotor, heavy flex frame)

[unborn dome]

I used alt recipes to never use screws at all

[bleak ivy]

yeah that’s usual practice

[dusky panther]

Yeah the messy ratios always make things harder

But you can over/underclock to get more even output right

[bleak ivy]

also cast screw has exactly the same iron efficiency as regular screws iirc

it just eliminates the rod step

[spare jolt]

he do be flexing heavily with his frame tho

[dusky panther]

But replaces it with the steel beam step

[prisma kraken]

steel screw works in multiples of 13. hard to get anything to square up properly with that number 🙂

[bleak ivy]

oh is that why flex frame takes 102 screws lol

[prisma kraken]

yep

copper rotor too

the default computer recipe used to be that way as well

[dusky panther]

Which alt recipes should I look for?

[prisma kraken]

all of them 🙂

[spare jolt]

Cast screw doesn't need steel

[dusky panther]

Sorry

I meant the steel ones

[unborn dome]

Steel rotor, stitched iron plate

Encased modular frame

[spare jolt]

Solid steel ingot at the very least

[prisma kraken]

cast screw is a good recipe for the very early game, saving a machine to make screws for default rotor & reinforced plate

[unborn dome]

Steeled frame

[prisma kraken]

as you progress in the game, various recipes all but make screws obsolete for making things

[spare jolt]

Ah, you meant steel screws, not steel alts lol

[bleak ivy]

adhered plate has a very high output if you have oil nearby

and can be combined with coated iron plates

[spare jolt]

Well either way, solid steel is one of those top-tier recipes

[prisma kraken]

iron & copper alloy, solid steel, the hor + dilluted fuel recipes, recycled rubber and plastic and heavy encased frame are probably my short list of top recipes

there's many others i use, but those bubble up to the top

[bleak ivy]

i quite like crystal computer tbh

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it just isn't going to be placed up with solid steel & copper alloy

[bleak ivy]

true

i think the pure ingot recipes are S tier tho

[prisma kraken]

i disagree adamantly

[bleak ivy]

how come?

[spare jolt]

uses liquids and has solid-only alternatives
Straight into the garbage bin

[bleak ivy]

fair enough, i’ve found it useful in a lot of situations

if water is more convenient to get than bringing in more of a specific ore

imo the top one is pure crystals since quartz is actually rare compared to the other ones

[prisma kraken]

lets tackle the 'pure' recipes: iron is garbage - wierd ratios and iron alloy is better

[spare jolt]

Yea pure iron ratios is bs

7:13, like wtf

[bleak ivy]

that one does suck

[prisma kraken]

pure copper is very good, but there's so much copper on the map that copper alloy does a better job unless you need to make 60 pasta/min

seriously, the only way you'll EVER need pure copper is if you are making that much pasta

[bleak ivy]

i also agree that pure copper is really annoying to setup since you need like 80 refineries or something for a maxed node

i’ve found it best with caterium and quartz

[prisma kraken]

well, if logistically stretching out the copper you have with a 60 refinery build is preferable to using a converter as well

[spare jolt]

Quartz purification is very good

[pure crow]

Yeah, I started setting up pure copper and caterium and after the 4th refinery blueprint (16th refinery) I had enough.

[prisma kraken]

that isn't a 'pure' recipe

[bleak ivy]

doesn’t it work the same? raw ore + water

[prisma kraken]

pure caterium and quartz are the only other two

[spare jolt]

No, purification takes one of the acids. Nitric prob? Idr

[pure crow]

(and I just routed the excess into a bunch of regular smelters)

[bleak ivy]

o wait quartz purification is the dissolved silica one

[spare jolt]

Y

[prisma kraken]

no purification is nitric acid, then refining byproduct to make silica and dealing with waste water

[spare jolt]

Raw quartz+water is pure quartz crystal only

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it isn't awful, but purification is better imho

[bleak ivy]

purification requiring nitric acid means that it’s pretty lategame tbf

[spare jolt]

It's better because you get huge amounts of both but can't control them

[bleak ivy]

at the initial stage where you’d want a lot of crystals (for oscillators) you want pure

[spare jolt]

If you need to increase one - you have to increase another

[prisma kraken]

which is ok, except for the power it takes, both crystal and silica have good uses

[bleak ivy]

also interested in thoughts on aluminum alt recipes

[spare jolt]

Sloppy + pure aluminum, period

[bleak ivy]

i have 2 different setups and one uses instant scrap while the other is sloppy alumina

both use pure ingots

[prisma kraken]

sloppy+electro+pure should be how you build aluminum

gives a 1:1 bauxite->ingot

[bleak ivy]

whats the benefit of electro

[prisma kraken]

more ingots

[bleak ivy]

if you wanted to maximise ingots wouldn’t you avoid pure?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, the problem is that default ingot takes silica

[spare jolt]

a) you don't have to deal with another product, b) there's pretty little quartz in 1.0

[prisma kraken]

it makes more ingots, but the amount of quartz it eats means that you are essentially trading quartz for aluminum

[pure crow]

So if I'm considering doing a Truck Station, which vehicle is best? (Ignoring Factory Cart)
I'm assuming the Truck?

[spare jolt]

Unless you sloop it to make it silica neutral then yea.

[prisma kraken]

and logistically, it's a mess to bring quartz to bauxite or vice versa

[bleak ivy]

yeah that’s why i stuck with pure myself mainly

[spare jolt]

Depends on the distance. For me, tractor is enough, and for the bigger distances i got trains

[prisma kraken]

in general, you want to use pure alum ingot by default and use the default when you want to make a lil more alum from a factory for one reason or another

also, should be mentioned: instant scrap + pure ingot also makes 1:1 bauxite->ingot

it requires coal and sulfur, which is pretty meh to me

[spare jolt]

the place south to rocky desert is good for that if you manage to bring the bauxite from the mountain

Which is easy with trains and 2m ramps

[bleak ivy]

since electro requires oil i guess its just a question of whether sulfur or oil is closer

[prisma kraken]

there's a solution to that

[spare jolt]

Ah wow

[bleak ivy]

oh i didn’t realise those nodes existed

is that a fracking place or actual nodes

[spare jolt]

What a yummy spot, should've used that in my first 1.0 playthrough

[prisma kraken]

it's a resource well

[bleak ivy]

ic

[bleak ivy]

im still on tier 8 and i need a bunch more aluminum, will prolly use this

[prisma kraken]

there's 1350 oil there available when you get to alum processing in phase 4

[unborn dome]

Can't build aluminum factory there, though, since the resource wells won't be available yet. Unless you mean ship in coal until a bit later, then change over to electrode?

[prisma kraken]

the nice thing is that you can also make the rubber you need for heatsinks from it and (possibly) the fuel you'd need for heat-fused frame

[bleak ivy]

oh yeah also im looking into turbo motors since im currently doing cooling systems

[prisma kraken]

well, there's also a lot of coal right there with the bauxite

[bleak ivy]

im making 20 fused frames and 25 RC units so i was thinking of doing turbo pressure motors

[unborn dome]

Ah so there is

[prisma kraken]

turbo pressure ends up being a lot cheaper than the other 2 recipes

[bleak ivy]

i figured yeah

seems just generally more convenient

[prisma kraken]

kind of the way i do aluminum is to grab the sloppy and pure alt recipes asap and just build a strawman setup to get mk5 belts, then get the electro going as a real build later

[bleak ivy]

i also find that the higher rate recipes for lategame parts are way nicer because slooping them is worth more

[prisma kraken]

i find the trick part of aluminum actually getting the copper and alum together

always ends up being a lot of trains

[unborn dome]

This is fine lol

[unborn dome]

I was planning to use this spot in the Titan Forest

[sharp cargo]

I have a manifold system running a mk4 belt of ore through 16 smelters. Shouldn't that be enough to fill all the smelters? I'm only seeing the first like 6 get filled, and the smelters after that dropping off in terms of filling

[prisma kraken]

that's where i ended up for my initial alum which i'm rebuilding now

[prisma kraken]

the ones ahead of it in line need to completely fill before the latter ones, each one takes longer than the previous, patience

[bleak ivy]

bear in mind after 6 splits until the first smelters start filling up the 7th one is receiving like 128x less items

[unborn dome]

Or you can prefill the inputs of the later machines

[bleak ivy]

pre filling machines or powering them while you build the factory (so they’re filled by the time you’re done) is usually a good way to avoid waiting

[prisma kraken]

also, if you have a double row of machines on a manifold, it is worse b/c it is 1/3 x 1/3 x ...

[sharp cargo]

So just wait a while and it'll fill up? Maybe I should leave it at 15x smelters for the mk4 belt? Or will a mk4 actually fill 16 smelters, not in theory, but in practice?

[unborn dome]

Yep, unless you pre-fill all the machines, it'll just take a long time

[bleak ivy]

it will in practice it’ll just take ages to reach that point