math-and-meta

[oblique hollow]

belt speed is 780

[rustic patio]

yea but pipe speed is 600

[oblique hollow]

i dont care about pipes right now

sev did

[rustic patio]

i know i was talking to sev

[oblique hollow]

either way: if you split the approximation up into 2 parts, one for t > optimum time and one for t < optimum time, it is pretty usable

[median heath]

Time?

[rustic patio]

about 107 seconds, about 897.3 items per second

dont have it exact yet

[median heath]

👍

[rustic patio]

i wonder, is there an easy way to calculate the max throughput?

[oblique hollow]

sooo to anwer my own question: yes the approximation is usable, for all times lower than optimum time

[rustic patio]

not really for higher stack sizes imo

[oblique hollow]

trying 500 now

as it was before: everything above the maximum is exact, but yes, the lower approximation gets worse

[rustic patio]

thing is, calculating the best throughput requires calculating both lines anyway

[oblique hollow]

for the lower bound you need the usual formula, for the upper bound theres the approximation by using the optimum times and the resulting optimum throughput

and the upper approximation isnt really an approximation as it is exact

[rustic patio]

ye noticed that too

[oblique hollow]

perfect overlap

[rustic patio]

but just doing it in the first place would probably be easier

[median heath]

Fluid Trains at 107s seems... like something I can work with tbh.

[rustic patio]

im currently thinking about how to calculate the best throughput

but maybe there just isnt a simple solution besides just calculating where they intersect

[median heath]

What do you mean by "best"? (Sorry I have been in and out of this one)

[rustic patio]

im bad at math 😩

[rustic patio]

well, the point where going any slower or faster would result in less throughput

[median heath]

You already solved that though?

[rustic patio]

i did?

[median heath]

50 per Stack
-88.62s RtD
-1083.3 Items/min

100 per Stack
-150.16s RtD
-1278.66 Items/min

200 per Stack
-273.23s RtD
-1405.4 Items/min

500 per Stack
-642.46s RtD
-1494.25 Items/min

[rustic patio]

O.o i cant remember 😭

[median heath]

That's why I was asking for the fluid numbers, so I could add them to that list. 😄

[rustic patio]

wow past me is smart /j

[median heath]

You took my equations and made the above based on the limits of stack size.

I just wanted to add the Fluid Train numbers to it.

[median heath]

Which you said was this, but "I don't have it exact yet" so I have not added them to the list of "maximums" 😄

[rustic patio]

ah i figured it out again. well, chatgpt did

[rustic patio]

    let optimal_throughput: f64 = ((stack_size * train_inventory_size) + (reload_time*beltspeed*2.))/ (beltspeed*2.);
    let optimal_reload_limit: f64 = ((optimal_throughput - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/optimal_throughput;
    let optimal_time_limit: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / optimal_throughput;

in this case optimal_reload_limit and optimal_time_limit are equal

Optimal reload limit: 896.5259618976467
Optimal time limit: 896.5259618976467```

[rustic patio]

data for fluids @median heath

[median heath]

Nice.
Only thing left would be solving the upper and lower times for Reload Limit = 600

[rustic patio]

Lower bound: 54.16
Midpoint: 107.08
Buffer: 52.92```

[median heath]

Buffer?

[rustic patio]

If you build your train route to take as long as midpoint, buffer is how many seconds you have up and down

so you could be 52 seconds too fast or 52 too slow

[median heath]

Ah

[rustic patio]

    fn main() {
    let desired_throughput: f64 = 600./60.;
    let roundtrip_time: f64 = 642.4646153;
    let stack_size: f64 = 50.;
    let beltspeed: f64 = 600./60.;
    let train_inventory_size: f64 = 32.;
    let reload_time: f64 = 27.08;

    // desired throughput is known
    let upper_bound: f64 = stack_size * train_inventory_size / desired_throughput;
    let lower_bound: f64 = 1. / ((1. - desired_throughput / (beltspeed * 2.)) / reload_time);

    // roundtrip time is known
    let reload_limit: f64 = ((roundtrip_time - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/roundtrip_time;
    let time_limit: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / roundtrip_time;

    // nothing is known
    let optimal_throughput: f64 = ((stack_size * train_inventory_size) + (reload_time*beltspeed*2.))/ (beltspeed*2.);
    let optimal_reload_limit: f64 = ((optimal_throughput - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/optimal_throughput;
    let optimal_time_limit: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / optimal_throughput;
    println!("Data if throughput is known");
    println!("Upper bound: {}", upper_bound);
    println!("Lower bound: {}", lower_bound);
    println!("Midpoint: {}", (upper_bound + lower_bound) / 2.);
    println!("Buffer: {}", (upper_bound - lower_bound) / 2.);
    println!("");
    println!("Data if roundtrip time is known");
    println!("Reload limit: {}", reload_limit*60.);
    println!("Time limit: {}", time_limit*60.);
    println!("");
    println!("Optimal round trip time and throughput for a given set of parameters");
    println!("Optimal time: {}", optimal_throughput);
    println!("Optimal reload limit: {}", optimal_reload_limit*60.);
    println!("Optimal time limit: {}", optimal_time_limit*60.);
}

Here is the little script

[median heath]

All those f64's remind me of when I owned an n64...

[rustic patio]

sadly no f64 in satisfacotry 😭

[median heath]

I just type float in everything I have done so far because I have had no need to specific between 16/32/64 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

its mandatory in rust afaik

[median heath]

Who plays Rust?

[jagged warren]

😂

[vague hawk]

how can I tell if a pipe needs a pump for the liquid to flow better ?

[zinc crater]

The indicator rings won't be moving is one. Or you can check pipe segments individually and see where the flow is stopping.

[pallid hull]

If it does not flow at all and is capped at one height level

[vague hawk]

oh, sounds simpler than I expected

[zinc crater]

Also knowing the max headlift of buildings helps.
10m(12m actual) for water extractor
20m(22m actual) for mk1 pump
50m(55m actual) for mk2 pump.
https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Head_lift#

There's diagrams to see for visualization.

[vague hawk]

what about the warning message on the pump that says "headlift is exceeding recommended headlift" or something ? should I worry about it ?

[zinc crater]

I've never seen anyone stress about too much headlift. 😉

[vague hawk]

alright, thanks for the help 👍

[primal flicker]

I think that indicates you need another pump above that one.

[vague hawk]

all 3 of them are like this, it's barely enough to make it to the top

sometimes the warning just disappears

[primal flicker]

Your pumps are too far apart. Deconstruct them, start over, likely need to rebuild the pipes between them as well.

Use 4 pumps instead of 3, evenly spaced.

[deft lichen]

21.1 is within the limit

20 is recommended, 22 is maximum

the orange area is just a warning/safety net

[primal flicker]

Isn't there a risk of flow restriction due to approaching max headlift?

[deft lichen]

only when exceeding it

nothing happens if you exceed recommended but not maximum

in fact the automatic snapping snaps to max headlift afaik

[whole heron]

Theoretically, if you wanted to use cyberwagons purely to destroy Plutonium Rods, how many would you need?

[wind spade]

depends how would they be driving

[deft lichen]

why would you not sink them

it also depends how many you'd be producing

[whole heron]

I wouldn't sink them as a joke. The wagons would be driving in circles. I was actually wondering about this in terms of X/rod, not as an actual number.

[polar crystal]

how much plastic/min do I roughly need in my first plastic factory?

I have 1200 crude oil/min

[delicate chasm]

Your plastic need will scale up more or less based on which alt recipes you use in the future and what kind of buildings you decide to lay out en masse.

For a first factory of this kind, not knowing the other factors, I'd say 100/min is fine, while using the rest of the oil for other things.

But if this is going to be your forever plastic factory and it's going to specialize, then probably do polymer/HOR -> rubber/diluted fuel -> plastic and scale it to 600 crude for now.

(Because you're going to eventually use all of it, that scale determines your layout for all 1200 while leaving options open to you to hybridize the facility if you determine you do not want that much production after all)

[polar crystal]

alright

[whole heron]

It depends on how much rubber you're pulling out of it too. Are you just making plastic or are you making other things?

[polar crystal]

I want to start making other thing as well

[whole heron]

All of your oil recipes will change from beginning to the end.

Because of the whole diluted -> recycling -> more recycling loop.

[polar crystal]

I currently do not have any alternate recipes for oil unfortunately

[delicate chasm]

Yeah and the amounts you'd want to funnel away for other things will change. For instance if I were in your spot, with the recipes I have, I'd split that into 360/240 (600) twice, because 360 crude is one of the magic numbers for a chain and any multiple of 30 is always gonna work with crude.

[whole heron]

For now. you should figure out what products you want and turn the byproducts into something you can burn or sink.

Then hunt down 20 or so alt recipes while your storage fills up with the products you do want.

I think your only real non-oil bottlenecks on tier 5 and 6 are heavy modular frames. So start making those too.

[polar crystal]

I think I'm gonna go with 6 refineries for plastic, making 120 plastic/min, then turn the heavy oil into fuel

[whole heron]

Do you have fuel gens yet?

[polar crystal]

I do not

[delicate chasm]

Aye, I recommend to keep it to 2 rubber and 2 plastic with 1 HOR -> Petroleum Coke clusters if you have no alts.

5 refineries into 40 rubber and plastic and 120 petroleum coke.

Oh, you have fuel? Then polymer resin with water may be a better way to go, assuming you can use the fuel.

[whole heron]

You're going to need to turn the heavy oil into Petro coke then.

[polar crystal]

why is that?

[whole heron]

Awesome sink doesn't accept liquid and any machine with production can't run unless all its products can be removed from the thing.

[delicate chasm]

It'll eat your plastic to package the fuel for the SINK or to use.

[polar crystal]

oh.. I get it

[whole heron]

Unless you want to do a real bootleg method of pouring all the residue into a pipe network with loads of buffers that gets constantly flushed.

[tropic hawk]

need? at least 1/min. How much you should get? depends on how you want to balance with rubber, and what purity the nearest node is

[whole heron]

I should actually do the math on that method for the sake of having the math. Might be funny.

[tropic hawk]

thats what I am doing. Creating a Mega-factory that takes up all of Dune Desert, half of Desert Canyon, and half of Spire Coast. It produces pretty much everything used for building, unless aluminum is involved (so no RCUs or cooling units, or any derivatives)

[whole heron]

I was actually referring to using fluid buffers and flushing as a disposal method.

[delicate chasm]

North-South train from eastern Desert Canyon to Titan Forest, maybe it even turns and goes to crater lakes?

[whole heron]

Which is probably why Waste comes out solid.

[polar crystal]

I will need to rebuild the factory later ayways, because I only have mk1 pipes, so I think now I'm gonna place something temporary to get me started with the unlocks

[tropic hawk]

misread that as 'doing math for the sake of math'

[tropic hawk]

nope, completely self contained.

[whole heron]

Mk2 pipes need plastic anyway, so you're stuck.

[delicate chasm]

5 refineries and an extractor walk into a bar...

[tropic hawk]

thats the best idea

[polar crystal]

alright, thanks for the help everyone

[delicate chasm]

Who said the train has to be outdoors? ☝️ 🤓
I like your build idea, hope to see it.

[tropic hawk]

our pleasure

[tropic hawk]

my build isn't using any Titan forest nodes though... why would I need a train going there?

[delicate chasm]

I was attempting to suggest that you could incorporate the aluminum that way into your build.

[vague hawk]

I currently have 2 coal power plants with 8 coal generators each on 4 normal coal nodes, is it worth the hassle to go and upgrade the miners to mk2 to double the coal input and double the coal generators or should I just build another site somewhere else ?

[stoic marsh]

It can be usefull

if you have enough coal and water, then go for it

[whole heron]

Mk2 is barely a hassle.

You should really be making those ingredients in decent quantities.

If not, then that should be your next project.

[west cedar]

is it possible to get a full 2 belt throughput on a single freight platform

[mystic moon]

No

[tropic hawk]

No. I think the theoretical max is 1.5 belt throughput, but don't quote me on that

[sturdy glacier]

say, does a smelter really produce 4 caterium ingots/s if you underclock it to 33.3333%, or is it ~3.999.../s after all?

[wind spade]

it makes slightly less, clock to 33.3334% 🙂

[west cedar]

it just cant be maxed because it stops when the train docks right?

[noble timber]

Yes. That’s why you use a bin to absorb the load when the station stops inputting

[sturdy glacier]

really wish the game rounded it 😩
thanks, was wondering why calculators set it to .3334 actually

[west cedar]

right, but because of that you cant get 2 belts max throughput

[noble timber]

Per carriage, no

[wind spade]

game can't round it because game doesn't work on per minute values

[noble timber]

I’m sceptical on 1.5 belts being the max throughout but it will be <2

[delicate chasm]

Somebody came up with the numbers already. 1494.25/1560

[median heath]

Throughput Equations: (1560 is used because it is the max of x2 mk5 belts, and all Times are in minutes.)

First you need TimeToFill. Which is reliant on Cargo Stack Size and Car Capacity.

TtF = ((StackSize * Car Capacity) / 1560) + 0.45133...

If TtF >= RtD (Round Trip Duration)
Throughput = ((RtD - 0.45133...) / RtD) * 1560

If TtF < RtD
Throughput = (TtF / RtD) * 1560

Maximum Values:

50 per Stack
-88.62s RtD
-1083.3 Items/min

100 per Stack
-150.16s RtD
-1278.66 Items/min

200 per Stack
-273.23s RtD
-1405.4 Items/min

500 per Stack
-642.46s RtD
-1494.25 Items/min

[rustic patio]

horizontal is round trip time, vertical is throughput. green line is two full 780 belts

(assuming stack size 500)

[primal flicker]

What's the cumulative fps/lag difference between using conveyor belts vs trains?

[snow maple]

i don't know exact numbers, but train tracks only require 1-2 lines run per section of map, and each line can carry many belts' worth of items. trains are definitely better for game performance than belts when long distances are a thing.

[primal flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/dog-doggo-cute-math-formulas-gif-17580986

Doin' me a big think

[noble timber]

No one really knows

Probably only a few fps at most

Belts, other than the background CPU math they cause will only give you lag when they are being rendered.

[frigid idol]

i wanna make a rubber/ plastic/ packaged fuel factory with 2550 crude oil. should i make more plastic or more rubber?

[median heath]

Make what you need.

None of us know what your goals are, so which thing you should make more of is a question only you can answer.

[tropic hawk]

do you use plastic or rubber more?

[frigid idol]

neither rn. its in a server i started playing on

[median heath]

Then just build equal amounts of both.

[true junco]

In terms of later products, I do wonder which is typically needed in larger volumes. I know initially plastic seams to be in higher demand due to mk2 pipes and the first recipie for circuits... but beyond that idk.

[median heath]

j do wonder which is needed in larger volumes

This is dependent on your goals and which alts you use.

Which is why none of us can answer the question for an individual.

[true junco]

Well. A generalized trend could be arrived at...

But the wiki is broken and wont show the "used in" table on the page for rubber atm...

That said. I think plastic is used in WAY more buildables once you factor in alternative foundations. Lots of plastic coated concrete stuff and nothing like that with rubber that i am aware of.

[median heath]

A generalized trend could be arrived at...

How?

[rustic patio]

With 2550 oil you can make 7650 plastic or rubber per minute. At that rate buildables become irrelevant because you gain plastic faster than you can use it

[rustic patio]

By acting like you have to adjust your production based on how many buildings use a certain resource and ignoring everything else

Resources are infinite, building space is finite. Don't worry about MK2 pipes when deciding your production lines

[median heath]

Rubber, used in:
Coolings
Gas Filter
Turbos
Multiple Cable recipes
CBs
Comps
Concrete
Oscillators
RCUs
RIPs

Plastic, used in:
Multiple CB recipes
Comps
Supers
Batteries
Multiple Plate Recipes

[median heath]

How many buildings?
Why do we care what buildings need?

That is all filed under "amount going to storage infinitely for building mats."

[true junco]

The trend I would base on all recipies. I would think of it in terms of options available. Its more of thought experiment than anything else...

[rustic patio]

Yea that's my point, Canadian is approaching it incorrectly

[true junco]

Im not approaching anything. Im just thinking and talking about it. Sheesh.

[rustic patio]

The way you approach talking about it is incorrect then :)

[median heath]

If you want to give yourself the most options for being undecided on what you would use it for, I would split it Rubber/Plastic 60/40, but honestly it is always specific to the individual.

[mystic verge]

Ok imma break up what I think is a fight with a math question

[true junco]

See. Thats an actual answer. And an acceptable one.

[median heath]

... is typing

[mystic verge]

If I'm building a factory with a demand of a little under 600/min and using trains to transport the resources; can I have two trains that each collect 300/min (node quality limits). My idea was to have a platform that receives resources from two different mines each at 300/min

[median heath]

Highest mk of belt you have?

[mystic verge]

5, but we only have MK2 miners

[median heath]

Yeah, you can do that from 1 platform if you buffer it.

[mystic verge]

My plan was just a shitload of containers on the recieving side

[median heath]

Just need 1 to buffer it.

[frigid idol]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=9I1q22A7pTkwbicvN6qh

anyone have any recommendations on this to accommodate better for mark 4 belts?

[tropic hawk]

a few questions about the set up. To start, Why are you making both fluid and packaged fuel?

[frigid idol]

because mk 4 belts are 480, so the rest of the fuel will be used for some gens

[tropic hawk]

alright, then why not package the fuel rather than using DPF as well as DF?

also, whats wrong with using multiple belts?

[frigid idol]

https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=CdktO0cMRKmOmq5qz0dT

took off diluted packaged fuel, thats better

i dont mind using multiple belts, i just dont need more than one belt of packaged fuel

and decorating with some gens within the factory will help with the massive power needed to run the factory, and look nice\

[tropic hawk]

only minor gripe that people could draw with that is that the recycling loop is messy, but you are already working with a messy oil number. Not much else I can say

[frigid idol]

yeah im not excited for the messy loop but its certainly manageable

[tropic hawk]

oh the belting will be a piece of cake. the clockspeeds is where I draw the worry. Other than that, looks good for a nice, simple DF plant

or plastic/rubber plant rather

[frigid idol]

ill just do some overclocking on both sides

bout to be a ticket machine till we need the resources for other factories

[tropic hawk]

don't do that until you have the power support for that facility. It would make more sense to turn all the HOR into fuel, and burn it in generators and process the poly resin as the extra plastic/rubber, rather than the other way around, as you get much more power to play with, and you still get a steady feed of tickets, whereas the other one will be a massive drain for a while since you don't need that amount yet

[frigid idol]

i dont want to have to make changes later, theres enough coal in the area to run a good portion of the plant till we build a fuel plant on the coast. all i have to do is some spicy wiring so i can turn on 1/4 of the factory at a time

[tropic hawk]

trust me, making it remotely throttleable is not hard. once did a 252 equivalent nuclear plant that I could throttle by percent increments, only took 7 grids to accomplish

[polar crystal]

What does HOR stand for?

[median heath]

Heavy Oil Residue

!wikisearch Acronyms

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=Acronyms

[polar crystal]

Thanks

[turbid plinth]

guys, how do I make Plutonium fuel rods with 800 uranium waste per minute?

the tools say i need 4000 per minute

[spark yarrow]

build more machines for those, or don't and wait longer 😄

[turbid plinth]

there must be a way to get the number proportionally down

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production

[median heath]

It says you need 4000/min to make how many rods?

[turbid plinth]

20

[median heath]

4000/5 = 800
20/5 = 4

[turbid plinth]

jesus i am an idiot, i tought it had to do something with the input numbers - since we input the waste manually

thanks

[median heath]

👍

[true junco]

Having looked at the graphs yallve put in for train efficiency. I assume there is a point where with extremely long travel times youd use multiple cars. Such that while the train is enroute you have time to fill multiple loading docks between trips.

I wonder how exactly you might calculate that and where the peak ROI is.

Tho i suppose the competing idea would be to just add a duplicate train to the same line.

[median heath]

? Peak ROI is what they all show if I take your meaning.

Going outside the bounds for a given target is when "add another train" becomes the solution.

[oblique hollow]

Rountrip time of a single train can be "halved" by using 2 trains, if they are offset by half the route

that effectively makes your "one train" twice as fast

what are 2 trains but a single train going twice as fast

[median heath]

If inside the target window? They are less throughput due to more lockout timers.

[oblique hollow]

well, each train gets one lockout timer but half the items now

throughput per train is lower, naturally

but total throughput in theory stays constant

or is this more in the view of the station?

[median heath]

Context of the theory being the limit of the target window means no, it would go down.

Outside the window is when adding another train helps.

[oblique hollow]

Huh yeah wait, its better to "pay" for a full load with 27.08 seconds than to pay for half a load

[median heath]

If you're not pushing the max of the target window then things are different, yes.
But the above context is about maxing.

[oblique hollow]

but then in theory, splitting that load up to 2 freight cars is better

as, yes, you get less items per load but the itnput per minute is less

[median heath]

Cars yes.
Trains no.

[snow dove]

wouldn’t it be functionally the same as one train with half the round trip time?

[median heath]

No. Because lockout timers are additive.

[oblique hollow]

one train with half the roundtrip time but more lockout in turn

its constant time vs a variable time

more freight cars on the other hand have a fixed time for all of them too

2 freight cars vs one freight car have the same lockout timer

Sooo long trains usually are always better then. But then you have to fight against freight car weight and train station space

which i guess is where "wait until full" or the other load settings come in. If they work that is

[median heath]

Long better until unfeasible.

Like if you have an extended distance so far outside the window you'd need like 15 cars to do it in 1 train, having 3 trains with 5 cars is "better" for most people.

[whole heron]

Besides the power draw and space requirements are there any downsides to just adding cars and locomotives to make a long train?

[snow dove]

no not really

[true junco]

Well. Yalls conclusions sound about what i expected. So thats good enough for me. So it kind of comes down to longer train vs duplicate trains which will depend largely on how one wants to build their stations. So 1 long train and long stations VS many short trains and short stations.

[versed violet]

Do they actually work? I mean, if you didn't load a full wagon, its never going to get filled, because the belts are paused while train waits. Or does the train waits until the freight station is full before starting the sequence?

[oblique hollow]

the station actually does still allow items

as it is not in an animation

it still "locks down" the UI however

so items can go in/out, but you cant interact with the station

[versed violet]

Have to try it someday. Never fooled around with the setting because it looked like a tarp

[pine rapids]

Yo, fun little math thing

A 4 meter concrete foundation is 8m * 8m * 4m = 256 m^3
It requires 7 bags of concrete, so each bag of concrete is ~36.5 m^3
A stack of concrete bags is 500, so a stack is 18,250 m^3 of concrete
A storage container holds 24 stacks, so 438,000 m^3 of concrete
A storage container is 5m * 10m * 4m = 200 m^3
The inside of a storage container is 2,190 times as large as the outside - plus internal space for logistics

[bleak coral]

So why is turbofuel no longer meta? Last I played it was the preferred power source. Is it just cause people aren't scared of nuclear anymore cause plut can be sunk?

[pine rapids]

Nuke got easier as well. Turbofuel is a lot of work for something that's going to be replaced pretty soon by a nuke build anyway

[whole heron]

You can dilute the hell out of fuel, so Turbofuel isn't really that much of an incremental increase.

[wind spade]

we have pocket dimensions, I think we can have storage dimensions as well 🤷‍♂️

[bleak coral]

You can turbo diluted fuel, they're not the same step

[wind spade]

point is you get enough power from diluted fuel to get you to nuclear

[bleak coral]

But I guess if it's a stop gap, I see how diluted could be enough

[wind spade]

and instead of spamming hundreds of fuel gens, you build a few nuclear plants and get same power

[bleak coral]

Yeah turbo plants were gigantic

[pine rapids]

I went ahead and did an old school turbofuel power plant recently... the fuel generators are such a freaking pain to place

ha, replied to the wrong thing.... ahmanub

[whole heron]

What I mean is that you can create so much regular fuel that it can get hard to keep up with the other components.

[bleak coral]

They really should do more than 150MW, it's weird it's only twice coal even though you can do way more than 2x power with oil

[whole heron]

A single pure node of oil plus a bunch of water = 20 GW of power.

If there were more sulfur on the map, Turbofuel would probably be used more.

[bleak coral]

I was thinking of doing plain turbo instead of hunting for diluted or doing base recipes, but hard drive hunting really isn't that bad

Like for power right as I get fuel gens

[whole heron]

We could do the math on the marginal gains from each fuel type. That'd be interesting.

[bleak coral]

Compacted coal would be at the bottom lol

[whole heron]

100 Crude equals 266.66 fuel (284.367 MW + mining en cost)

[bleak coral]

I argue it's actually a loss for coal > compacted coal, but people don't like when I compare 200 coal to 100 coal + 100 sulfur

[whole heron]

100 Crude + 177.77 Sulfur & 177.77 Coal = 222.22 Turbofuel (743.035 MW + mining cost)

Turbo blend: 100 crude + 66.66 Sulfur = 133.33 Turbofuel (347.971 MW + mining cost)

Fuel is 750 MJ, Turbofuel is 2000 MJ, but for simplicity sake, Turbofuel is 2.6667 fuel.

Means basic recipe is 592.666 effective fuel. Turbo blend is 355.555 effective fuel

And now I'm tired. Someone else do the rest.

There is 6,840 potential Sulfur on the map.

And 11700 potential Crude Oil.

[tropic hawk]

What are you trying to do?

[whole heron]

Figure out the effective fuel each bit of sulfur is worth.

[tropic hawk]

what do you mean effective fuel?

[whole heron]

Or however many MJ each sulfur adds. I'm not really paying attention anymore.

[wind spade]

there's more than enough sulfur

[whole heron]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if there were more.

[wind spade]

not sure I understand 🤔 if you're not limited by a resource, how would adding more of it help?

[whole heron]

I'm not demanding a change, I'm saying that I suspect a trend.

[midnight willow]

like assuming infinite sulfur and coal which one has a higher potential MJ when used for fuel?

[whole heron]

That if there were more, people would use turbofuel more.

[wind spade]

you'd need a baseline

if there's infinite coal and sulfur, you'll get infinite MW 😛

[whole heron]

If you had infinite coal and water, we'd just be done.

[midnight willow]

infinite coal and sulfur but limited water

😉

[whole heron]

Is it even possible to use all the water on the map without intentionally wasting it somehow?

[wind spade]

then compacted is better

uh actually no, scrap that

it doesn't matter, as you're limited by number of gens (limited by water), so MW production is fixed no matter the fuel

[whole heron]

Was Turbo Heavy Fuel ever considered good? Am I missing something?

[midnight willow]

So then if you have more than enough sulfur either option is fine until you reach the use limit for water?

[median heath]

It has the simplest setup.

[wind spade]

no.

to get most MW:

if water is your limiting resource, it doesn't matter if you go coal or compacted
if you have enough water, you should convert all sulfur to compacted and burn remaining coal as coal

[midnight willow]

So is one setup not more water efficient of the other?

[wind spade]

you use same amount of water per MW/MJ

no matter the fuel

[midnight willow]

simple by comparison to nukes you mean or just other turbo fuel recipes?

[whole heron]

Except meat and veggies.

[median heath]

It's a turbofuel recipe... so it gets compared to turbofuel recipes.

Simplest setup in comparison to all power is just... biomass.

[midnight willow]

I assume the person was asking about turbo fuel in comparison to all power gen options not exclusively to recipes

in complexity vs MW

[whole heron]

Or Geothermal since you just set and forget.

[wind spade]

hard to define "1 complexity" and "how does 1 complexity compare to 1 MW"

[midnight willow]

I mean fair point but coal gen are fairly 'simple' vs fuel recipes. and biomass may be 'simpler' but more tedious/effort since it is manual

I guess it would be partial subjective

[wind spade]

any comparison you can think of is guaranteed to be subjective (or useless)

as long as you have more than one things to compare

e.g. "this recipe makes more per minute but uses more resources per product"

any conclusion like "X is better than Y" assumes subjective preferences

[bleak coral]

You can quantify complexity somewhat in number of steps, but beyond that, yeah, it is subjective since there's no baseline for how much time it adds to have loops or more raw resources or bigger, more complex machines or solids vs fluids

[wind spade]

even if we ignore complexity, you're gonna end up at things like "is 3 iron ore better than 1 copper ore? is 10 MW better than 1 iron ore?", etc.

[median heath]

3 Somers are better than 1 Mercer.

Prove me wrong. 😉

[bleak coral]

well that mercer is richer 😉

[median heath]

1 packaged water >

[bleak coral]

everything >

[whole heron]

Mercer?

[median heath]

Me, not getting the reference at all.

[bleak coral]

No, this mercer

[wind spade]

>

[median heath]

[bleak coral]

they're named after matt mercer, that was my joke

they'll probably get a name change before release

[burnt crater]

so Ive got 4 assemblers which require 12.5 copper sheets and on the other end I have 5 contructors which produce 10 copper sheets each. If there was a 4 way splitter I wouldve done it easily, since I could split one of the 5 constructors output into the other 4 therefore creating a 12.5 copper for the assembler. Any idea on how to do the manifolding?

[bleak coral]

oh manifolds? it's just a splitter on each machine and let them fill up and then it'll balance itself

also you can just use 3 splitters for a 1:4 split if you want to load balance

or use underclocking and use 5 assemblers instead and direct feed

[burnt crater]

thing is I already based my setup on 4 assemblers and...yeah

but thanks I ll try that out

[whole heron]

Basically the core of a manifold is that the splitters are in a row and they feed into each other in a row. The machines are on the side of that row.

[median heath]

"How to do manifolding?"
Wasn't aware there were multiple methods.

Just... put the splitters in a straight line and run the belt.

[burnt crater]

no wait

i think i messed up my question lmao

goj hold up i ll try to upload a ss

[median heath]

If you're trying to load balance the inputs, stop.

Just build a manifold.

[burnt crater]

aight for some reasons it wont let me take a ss so

basically on the right I have 5 constructors each producing 10 copper sheets

100 in total

sorry left*

and on the right i have 8 assemblers each requiring 12.5 copper sheets

and I was asking for a modality to distribute the

Im fucking stupid I figured it out

😭😭

so basically I can merge all of them then create a manifold for the assemblers's input right?

[median heath]

Yes.

[burnt crater]

took me a moment

[bleak coral]

pre-fill them if you don't want to wait

[burnt crater]

i got to the computers and its the first time trying to do something like this so yeah

[burnt crater]

yup!

[bleak coral]

yeah manifolding is just super easy, and personally I find by the time I'm done building an entire factory it's mostly done filling and the time I woulda spent load-balancing is more than what it takes to run to base grab items and pre-fill

though I guess I can blueprint some balancers now

[jagged warren]

yikes

that may seem normal to you but the most buildings i was ever able to build was like 10

before my attention span kicked in

[bleak coral]

I suspect some iron wire be amongst those constructors

[jagged warren]

were u talking to me or

[bleak coral]

yes, I was just guessing cause iron wire is super slow but efficient, so it's often the culprit for tons of constructors

[jagged warren]

nah, im using copper there haha

i can share the thing

[bleak coral]

sure

[jagged warren]

its a big steel factory for a lot of stuff

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/planners/production/index/json/{"Desc_IronScrew_C"%3A"20"%2C"Desc_IronPlateReinforced_C"%3A"20"%2C"Desc_SteelPipe_C"%3A"30"%2C"Desc_SteelPlate_C"%3A"30"%2C"Desc_SteelPlateReinforced_C"%3A"40"%2C"Desc_ModularFrame_C"%3A"9"%2C"Desc_ModularFrameHeavy_C"%3A"15"%2C"Desc_Rotor_C"%3A"20"%2C"Desc_Stator_C"%3A"5"%2C"Desc_Motor_C"%3A"20"%2C"Desc_SpaceElevatorPart_2_C"%3A"5"%2C"input"%3A{"Desc_SteelIngot_C"%3A"2160"}%2C"altRecipes"%3A["Recipe_Alternate_EncasedIndustrialBeam_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_ModularFrame_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_ModularFrameHeavy_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_Concrete_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_IngotSteel_1_C"]}

basically everything from T1-4 thats iron made and also hmf

cuz i overproduced steel ig

rn im in sep1, but im planning this for when i get mk4 conveyors

[bleak coral]

oh yeah, none of those outputs are too big on their own, but altogether it does look pretty big

[jagged warren]

so rn ill only build like the EIB + space parts

[jagged warren]

yeah exactly.. well the HMF is taking up a portion of it lol

[bleak coral]

yeah HMFs are hogs lol

[jagged warren]

https://satisfactory-calculator.com/en/planners/production/index/json/{"Desc_ModularFrameHeavy_C"%3A"15"%2C"input"%3A{"Desc_SteelIngot_C"%3A"1355"}%2C"altRecipes"%3A["Recipe_Alternate_ModularFrameHeavy_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_Concrete_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_IngotSteel_1_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_ModularFrame_C"%2C"Recipe_Alternate_EncasedIndustrialBeam_C"]} this is the HMF alone

[bleak coral]

I guess 15 HMF is actually decently big

[jagged warren]

basically half my factory will be HMF

[wind spade]

why do you want to produce screws? 🤔

[jagged warren]

was meant to be 20 but i thought 15 is enough and ill get more EIB and other stuff instead

[jagged warren]

i dont, its a byproduct

to keep the numbers nice, mostly the 2160 steel

or ig just in case i ever need screws.. hate to say that

[bleak coral]

5 is plenty tbh

[wind spade]

0 is plenty

[jagged warren]

hmf

[wind spade]

hmf will have their own screws production

[jagged warren]

i agree, theres just nothing i could do with the steel tho lol

thats why im making generous amounts of basically everything

i think its gonna be laggy unless i OC though

[bleak coral]

depend on how good your machine is, it's not a megafactory or anything

[jagged warren]

i have a rtx3060 gpu, hopefully should be able to pull this off, especially if i branch it out a little bit

and its kinda approaching the megafactory thing

id call it a tiny megafactory (for sep1-2)

[bleak coral]

if you keep it spread out then it stops it being a GPU problem for sure, then it depends on your CPU for the simulation

[jagged warren]

it hits the CPU from everywhere though right

[bleak coral]

yeah

[jagged warren]

mhm alright

[bleak coral]

spreading out just means less things to render, so that helps GPU lag

[jagged warren]

ill try to split it up into "modules"

[bleak coral]

can't stop CPU slowdown though, that's inevitable

[jagged warren]

like each part will have its own separate building a bit moved away

[mystic moon]

It also helps cpu as well

[prisma kraken]

probably the biggest perf hits are lots of different items on belts in render distance & the flood lights

[bleak coral]

oh, I assumed that was the same no matter the distance, never mind then

[true junco]

Yeah. Apparently the game "skips ingame time cycles and multiplies" for things that are far away. Or something like that.

[true junco]

Glass too i think. And i heard signs also.

[prisma kraken]

i've not seen too many issues with glass, but yeah, lotta problems with using lots of signs

[bleak coral]

I thought they fixed the glass thing in the cosmetics update

like they changed how glass works or something

[whole heron]

I think they stated that the next update will shrink loading zones for more granularity.

So megafactories will be less laggy.

[mystic moon]

I haven't really heard that

[mystic moon]

How I'd that affected by loading zones?

[whole heron]

Or something. I dunno, I can't remember.

I'd have to find the video.

[mystic moon]

The reason that smaller factories are easier on performance is essentially that every machine, belt, pipe and other factory entity has essentially two components: the visual component of the machine and the actual factory component responsible for handling all of the calculations.

When you go out of view distance, the game can essentially stop caring about loading the visual component of that object, which reduces cpu time significantly. The game loads these components for all machines within a certain radius, weather or not you can see them

[true junco]

Its been mentioned a few times in here. 🤷‍♂️

[frosty owl]

It's gotten better. Used to be "double"

[rustic patio]

depends

everything u see still gets rendered, but the loading zones arent enormous anymore

a megafactory shouldnt be affected much i think

[wind spade]

megafactory's main source of lag is not related to loading zones

[rustic patio]

what then?

i thought its because all the things are in one place

[wind spade]

indeed, it's usually GPU struggling

[rustic patio]

doesnt the loading zone decide what things get rendered on the gpu?

or does it decide something else?

[wind spade]

no, iirc that specifies what gets simulated with CPU

well, rendering it may be as well

[rustic patio]

but i thought everything always gets simulated confusion

[wind spade]

but if you're in the megabase you have it loaded fully anyway

[rustic patio]

yea thats my point

[wind spade]

things far away skip ticks iirc

[rustic patio]

unless its like, a giga base and covers a big part of the map

but having everything in one place is still a bad idea, i feel like outposts woudl benefit more from this

[mystic moon]

@rustic patio @wind spade my understanding is that the loading zones are only for map stuff
Loading factory items will remain the same afaik

[rustic patio]

ah okay then that wouldnt change anything in regards to factories thx

[minor hawk]

I feel like there's no point in using trucks, it seems like a lot more work than necessary that other solutions would handle more efficiently and smoothly.

Did you find any real advantageous use for them compared to just making long belts or setting up a train?

[snow dove]

long belts ruin your fps in the long run

trucks, trains, drones, etc are better for fps

trucks have no lockout time too

[median heath]

Yes, I found a real advantage in the fact a truck stop can move more per minute than a train platform could ever hope to.

Found another advantage in the fact trains consume more fuel than truck could ever dream of.

[rustic patio]

for getting things from a to b trucks are just the best

but a train network is better in most other situations imo

[median heath]

Well. Nothing beats belts.
That's just the bottom-line.

Using other options is a choice and why we just compare those 3 between themselves.

Each has areas where it is great and where it sucks.
Best practice logistics is using all 3 in concert where applicable 🤷‍♂️

[snow dove]

what’s the third?

[median heath]

Drones.

[snow dove]

ah

[wind spade]

and fourth? trucks?

[midnight willow]

on a note of fuel advantage of trains is you dont have to supply them or their depots with fuel directly like you do trucks. Which I view to be an advantage between them

1. belts
2. trucks
3. trains
4. drones
   ?

[median heath]

Like nearly everything in the game, subjective analysis is what matters.

Objectively, trains consume about 20x more fuel than trucks. But the method of fuel supply is something you have to decide if you care about or not 🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

Objectively, trains consume about 20x more fuel than trucks.
? 🤔

tractor is 75 MW iirc, train 110 MW 🤔

[midnight willow]

was gonnas say 20x sounds completely off

[wind spade]

even if you include stations and platforms, it's hard to reach 750 MW

[median heath]

Were you not there when we did the math on this?

[wind spade]

most likely not?
but one engine vs one truck (even with all the stations) has no chance of being 20x more

[median heath]

It is not completely off. It was truck run + truck stop vs. train run + station + platforms and the result was that for the 1560 being move a single train consumed the fuel for 24ish trucks.

[wind spade]

afaik platforms use electricity only when actually (un)loading?

[median heath]

If you wish to redo the math and change my current knowledge on the subject, feel free.

My brain already has the matter filed as "solved: this was the result"

[wind spade]

purely based on known numbers:
train: 110 MW (max)
2 stations: 2x50 -> 100MW
4 platforms -> 4x50 -> 200 MW
total: 410 MW

vs
truck: 75MW (max)
2 truck stations: 2x20 -> 40 MW
total: 115 MW

result: 3.56x more power used (assuming all stations and platforms use electricity at all times, which I don't think they do, afaik they only use power when train is docked?)

[median heath]

To add to known numbers:

Station + 2 Platform runtime = 27.08s
Max runtime for Truck Stop = 24s.

[wind spade]

sure? but still, no way to get 20x more, even 10x more is almost impossible to get

[snow dove]

oh so you’re talking like mwh, not just raw mw

[median heath]

aka MJ, but yes.

[snow dove]

yeah, not super familiar with the exact terminology

[wind spade]

MJ:
27.08x300 (train stations)
110x[trip time] (train)

24x40 (truck stations)
75x[trip time] (truck)

solving for 20x more (yeah, assuming same trip time, because otherwise the comparison can result in pretty much anything)

27.08*300 + 110*x = 20*(24*40 + 75*x)
8124 + 110x = 19200 + 1500x
1390x = -11076

since x is negative, it's literally impossible for it to be 20x more (as that would mean you have negative trip time)

[median heath]

Huh?

[delicate chasm]

On the way to the guests' room to refund the money, the bellhop realizes that he cannot equally divide the five one-dollar bills among the three guests.

[median heath]

Someone deleted what I said Huh? to.

[tropic hawk]

let them fight it out among themselves

[delicate chasm]

? Fighting?
Channel looks dead?

[bleak coral]

eat the two extra dollars and then gaslight the guests about how much they gave you

[delicate chasm]

This person googled or knows the missing dollar riddle I'm referencing. Bravo.

But it's kind of awkward now so if you wanna talk about that I guess y'all do so.

[mystic verge]

Question for the math nerds; is overclocking nuclear power plants worth it?

[median heath]

Worth is subjective to the individual.

Spending shards will save you space, as it always does.
You have to decide if that is what matters to you.

[mystic verge]

i have been overclocking fuel gens to save space since the fuel consumption and power generated seems to be the same (two gens at 100% produce the same as one gen at 200% and take the same amount of fuel). But I dont know if the same applies to nuclear. I know that with the overclocking changes in the last update they mentioned nuclear would work different from other gens

[mystic moon]

Nuclear is linear

[mystic verge]

is the waste generation linear too?

[mystic moon]

Yep

[mystic verge]

so all it will do is save space?

[mystic moon]

Yea

[dense cave]

I think they did that for all power generation

since it made it too confusing

[median heath]

Overclocking power gens has always been linear.
They just made it.. "more linear" with the latest update to it.

[mystic moon]

They just made it so fuel consumption was also linear

[median heath]

It already was.

It was just not 1:1 linear.

[mystic moon]

Just a different slope

I know...

[bleak coral]

It wasn't linear, it was the same kind of formula everything else used just with a different exponent so it capped out at around (but not exactly) 200% instead of 250%, but yeah fuel and power generation always went up at the same rate. The UI was also wrong some places and communicated all this poorly, overall a big pain in the ass haha. Much better now

[median heath]

"It wasn't linear, things just went up at the same rate."

🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
What is your definition of linear?

[bleak coral]

the mathematical one, a linear formula

the formula for the rate of change was exponential, power and fuel consumption just used the same formula

[vapid gorge]

I'm preeeeeetty sure the power gens were never exponential

[bleak coral]

or logarithmic, I always get that mixed up, which is the one where it's X^"some number"

either way that's not linear

[median heath]

Power and Fuel Consumption were linear...

[vapid gorge]

yeah but I think it was neither - it was just a gentler constant slope finishing at about 202% power when you OCed to 250

like the power increase from 100 oc to 150 oc was the same increase as 150 oc to 200oc

[bleak coral]

it wasn't

old formula: power capacity = initial power capacity * (clock speed/100) ^(1/1.3)

[wind spade]

Old gens had exponential power growth, linear fuel usage. New gens have both linear

[oblique hollow]

the correct term is "power function"

the speed of the generator and the power usage of normal machines followed a power function

[spark shale]

i have a question, if i need 111.11 refineries at 150% does that mean that i place 111 at 150 and one last at 0.11 * 1.5 (0.165%)?

[snow dove]

yes

[oblique hollow]

hey all, I'm working on some concepts for alternative recipe information summaries and wanted to hear some thoughts on this design.
I picked Uranium Fuel Unit to demonstrate

i might have goofed on the power saving value, i just dont know where

[whole heron]

For that particular one, you should put a note that the recipe is subject to change as Beacons will be completely removed from the game at some point.

[wind spade]

every recipe is subject to change due to recipe rebalance planned

[whole heron]

Yes, but this is a change sooner than the other changes.

[wind spade]

do we know that?

[whole heron]

It's likely.

[wind spade]

I'd say they will put it together with other recipe changes, makes much more sense

if they're gonna break your factories, they better do it in one update, not across multiple

same logic was already used for U2-U3-U4 (can't remember which one) recipe rebalance

[oblique hollow]

nah

If anything, they do it all at once

thats how they always do things

group similar tasks up and work on them once it is time to work on that whole topic

[mystic moon]

I think u4
Long time ago now

[wind spade]

U3 introduced multiple products per recipe iirc

tho not sure if there was a rebalance after it or not

[mystic moon]

Yeah, a lot changed with pipes and then I think they did a rebalance of all the new recipes in u4

[pallid hull]

U4 redid tier 7 and added tier8

[snow maple]

u3 rebalanced almost everything, u4 rebalanced t7+

[quartz violet]

Wait was u3 or u2 the pipe update

[oblique hollow]

U3

[frosty owl]

3

[oblique hollow]

U2 was Nuclear and Trains

[quartz violet]

I remember watching a letsplay from someone and they were annoyed they had to redo their coal plant. I started playing sometime soon after I saw that

[frosty owl]

Coal Generators didn't require water prior U3

[quartz violet]

Yeah

[tropic hawk]

perhaps include something like the wiki with a map of the recipe from others so people can visualize it a bit better

[oblique hollow]

uh what

[delicate chasm]

Map of the recipe? Like a Tools or SCIM production chain visualization?

[dapper grove]

2+2

[wind spade]

#off-topic-general

[dapper grove]

nope this channel is for maths

[wind spade]

no, this channel is about math in Satisfactory

you're not funny with meme spam, neither were the previous 200 people who did this

[dapper grove]

mhm your werid

[vapid gorge]

it is a very quick filter on who to block though you have to admit

[tropic hawk]

like it displays in the Wiki for the MJ value of certain alts

[wind spade]

MJ value is just one step, not entire production line

[tropic hawk]

well yes, but im saying that it would be a bit easier to read if it had a map of something like that

[wind spade]

by map you mean "production line with the item as a product"?

if yes, which recipes would that use?

[tropic hawk]

nevermind then

[placid oyster]

Actually looks really good

I would also add an "alternatives" section

Or add the other alts as clickable tabs at the top

But the benefits/drawbacks approach is great and exemplifies how every alt is a choice

Would this be autocalculated somehow or is it all manually written?

[wind spade]

manually written as most alts won't be "compare recipes" but "how is this recipe often used and what it can do"

[placid oyster]

Yeah I thought so

[bleak coral]

Biocoal:
often used for: memes lul idk

[placid oyster]

Actually I have used biocoal once

When I ran out of nobelisks in the wild and there was a spider around

I found some sulfure ore

But no coal

[bleak coral]

To be a little fair to biocoal/charcoal, it is how you get the most energy out of biomass/wood

[placid oyster]

Yeah but wood collecting is still a manual process sadly

If there was some automation to it it might prove a bit more useful

[bleak coral]

now finding a use for liquid biofuel...... that remains an elusive subject 😆

[placid oyster]

Because it allows you to input biological materials into automated gens

Just like liquid bio

[bleak coral]

I mean if you want to do a biomass only run, it's better than biomass generators

[placid oyster]

So if there was automation for biomass/wood/etc

It would make a bit of sense

[bleak coral]

sure, but I think they're supposed to be kinda a joke

[wind spade]

fuel gens

[placid oyster]

Given every other recipe fills a niche, I think its rather than they havent gotten around to do some sort of farming update

But thats just my take on it

Maybe theres something in the archives to prove/disprove me

[delicate chasm]

Biomass is for batch production.

[bleak coral]

yeah but why? I guess it's a way to get rid of leftover solid biomass but if you're regularly making use of bio power biocoal/charcoal is better or just biomass generators with solid for portability/ease of setup

[delicate chasm]

It's perfectly efficient, scales infinitely, and is in all cases not automated at any step.

It is however very reasonable to calculate precisely the MWh you can get out of some biomass, so you can lay out some machines, fill the biomass reactors to precisely match your production target, then pull the lever and walk away.

[placid oyster]

Or you could overproduce and sink what you dont need

[delicate chasm]

Fuel generators using liquid bio-fuel are the same with the caveat that they begin to generate right away. You do however have the option of storing power with perfect efficiency using power storages, so again, the bio-fuel is only useful for batch production as it cannot be automated.

You can jump-start stuff with it too and make use of it in other ways... But yeah, it goes hand crafting -> batch crafting -> automation if you want to look at it this way.

[wind spade]

why not?
it's a sandbox 🙂

[bleak coral]

fair enough haha

[delicate chasm]

Oh hey

We have biocoal, and we have biofuel, and now we're getting Jeff.

Bionuke?

[bleak coral]

who needs a messy production process, just let jeff power your factory lol

[whole heron]

Biobomb exists.

Gas Nobelisk.

If you use biocoal to make ammo, how many pigs can you kill using one pig's corpse?

[oblique hollow]

Biobomb is when you take a massive dump in the toilet

[whole heron]

1 Hog Remains -> 1 Alien Protein -> 100 Biomass -> 120 Biocoal
Add 120 sulfur and you get 240 Black Powder.
2 Black Powder per Nobelisk.

So one pig can be used to kill 120 of his brethren.

Assuming they don't bunch up.

Does this math check out?

[midnight willow]

just need the 120 steel pipes as well but otherwise looks correct

[bleak coral]

Sanity check for a feeder problem I'm having. I'm pretty sure this is the flow of items because the factory demands on the miners are more than half of a full belt, plus mergers taking equally from both sides. So I need smart splitters to force backup in this scenario so it'll actually manifold correctly. Am I right? or do y'all see something I don't? Cause I didn't think there was actually a scenario for manifolds where smart splitters were required:

M = merger
Mi = miner
Fy = Factory
S = Splitter
        Fy165                       Fy210
          ^                           ^
          | 135                       | 180             180
Mi270 --> S --> 135 --> M --> 270 --> S --> 90 -->  M -->^
                        ^                           ^
                        | 135                       | 90
Mi270-----------------> S --> 135 ---> M --> 150 -->^
Mi15---------------------------------->^

[wind spade]

I'd personally just build factories in a way that you can hook a 270 miner to it tbh

[bleak coral]

haha little past that point

[wind spade]

(ideally consider logistics before building factories 😛 )

[bleak coral]

well hey I thought it work, and besides I knew smart splitters would fix if not, I'm just curious about the exact mechanism

cause this is the first time I've run into a problem like this

[delicate chasm]

Yeah I see it, in the bottom right corner. Your merged 150 line turns into a 90 without apparent loss of 60 items.

[bleak coral]

that's what I figured, that plus the first merge and split don't allow for more than 135 to be taken from the second 270 line

[delicate chasm]

You CAN just use splitters and mergers to finish the divisions you've already started with - 60 + 120 (180) and re-merging the remaining 90 to split again (225, which will manifold down to 210) is possible for example.

I'd probably just simplify to 270/250/35 if I needed these numbers though. edit: thought about it

[bleak coral]

yeah I'm not following lol, I shoulda just done smart splitters from the beginning as soon as it looked like load balancing, anything other basic balancing makes my head hurt

[delicate chasm]

Yeah these are fun to solve but are a pain in the butt when you just want them done.

[prisma kraken]

Just saw this, like the info, etc. Probably could use a bit of formatting & presentation help. Perhaps 'frequently combined with' should be changed to 'popular recipe chains' and list a basic diagram of the chain

[oblique hollow]

"Frequently combined with" is already going to be changed, it will instead now show a "complete" combo and the general effect of it. Displaying the chain seems kinda pointless, players know how recipes work and dont need handholding

Example for how that section on Recycled Plastic could look

it replaces "Frequently combined with" now (forgot to change that in this image)

(.. i just noticed i wrote Quartz Oscillators in the summary, not Crystal Oscillator)

[prisma kraken]

I like it

do you need some editing/writing/outlining help?

...also, just thought of this... something else that would be useful is a section on 'prime locations'

like for instance, pasta is really nice to make in southern dune desert, titan/lake forest or near the void hole

or another instance is that the oil well in crater lakes is perfect for electro-scrap

[turbid plinth]

I dont understad this game, my nuclear power plants do 25 waste\min, I have 32 of them - 800 waste per minute, the recycling is build to handle 1000\min and the waste is backing up while the recycling is on max production

[mystic moon]

Are you trying to put it over a single mk5?

[turbid plinth]

nope

both the waste and the non fizzle uranium is on 2 belts

[delicate chasm]

Kaliss casts Recycle!
It fizzled.

[mystic moon]

Follow the waste to where it's backing up
Then see what that machine doesn't have that it needs
Then follow that, etc

[turbid plinth]

i was hitting my head over this for 40 min

turns out the water outflow from one of the blenders is connected to a floor mount that isnt connected to anything

[midnight willow]

every time I have an issue like that either I forgot to set a recipe on a machine or a feed belt/pipe didnt connect (mp issue)

usually the latter

[turbid plinth]

how do you guys split your waste 75/25 between the blenders and the accelerators?

[mystic moon]

Split into 4, merge 3

[snow maple]

everything overflows in the end

[bleak coral]

their production overconsumes waste, presumably to get rid of excess stored waste, it will never back so it has to be load balanced

[whole heron]

So they're asking for a 4 way load balancer? Load balancers on powers of two are probably the easiest.

[wind spade]

Not true, will still work with overflow

[bleak coral]

right, sorry, didn't think that one through, both sides want less than 800

[wind spade]

No matter what they would want, it will work

[dire dagger]

Is cast screw a good alternate recipe??

[whole heron]

All Screw recipes are better than the base recipe. Whether you want to use screws or not is a separate issue.

[wind spade]

That depends on you and your preferences

[true junco]

I sure think so. Same as default but less machines.

Its at least better than default screw with default rods.

[wind spade]

Compared to base recipe path, they save some power. But skipping a step also means that you can't use alts on that step (steel rods), so it's up to you

[dire dagger]

Also, balancing my coal generators is a better idea than overflowing them??

[wind spade]

Both will work equally in the end

[dire dagger]

But what is more efficient

[wind spade]

Nothing, since both will work equally

[dire dagger]

Ok

[whole heron]

Manifolds have a bit of start-up time but use less space.

[wind spade]

When overflowing (manifolding), you just have to wait a bit until it stabilises (or pre-fill the gens), but you also can build way simpler (and probably smaller) splitter setup

[whole heron]

Balancing uses an increasing amount of space the longer the line is.

Probably x log 3 something. I don't know how to do algorithmic notation.

[wind spade]

Hard to specify, given that balancing some numbers will take less space (e.g. 12 is easy, 10 is pain)

[whole heron]

But anyway, it gets unwieldy fast when you need to hook up 20 machines.

[quartz violet]

I try not to do manifolds for over 10 machines

If I have no space for load balancing or something I just use 2 manifolds in line and route the second input belt on top of the first set of splitters

Also splitting machines into groups of 2 or 3 then manifolding to those splitters works pretty well but you need more space for that

[cinder silo]

Hmm, way more oil here than I remember, I had intended it for producing packaged fuel.

[median heath]

Has always been one of the highest-yield spots for oil, no?

[cinder silo]

I've seldom used the place so no idea.

[median heath]

I haven't ever built anything there tbh.
Plan to get something rolling over there with my next run on U8.

[cinder silo]

I used it in my first save for fuel power, I haven't touched it since, the two pure nodes at the northened I had no idea existed.

[mossy crest]

I see a lot of people skip screws. Is that just because some of the alternatives to Rotors/Reinforced Iron Plates don't need them? Or because they are inefficient? Something else?

[median heath]

Wait... huh?

[mossy crest]

I tend to enjoy the simplicity of...
Iron -> Cast Iron Screws -> Parts

[median heath]

All Screw Recipes are better than the base recipe.

What?

[cinder silo]

Screws take up a lot of belt room, you can get around that by having screw manufacture on site with the production chain at the cost of a bit more floor space.

[mossy crest]

Don't have to add copper or steel or anything usually

[mossy crest]

I guess that's what I do. Just manufacturer on-site w/upgraded belts. I rarely move around high volume parts for long distances.

[median heath]

Example of just putting the Screws into the manifold so they don't take up belt space:

[mossy crest]

You mean assembler? Looks like the screws don't go into a manifold there.

[median heath]

...

[cinder silo]

Did you just ignore the row of constructors on the right feeding the assemblers?

[median heath]

Example of putting the Screw [Constructors] into the manifold...

[mossy crest]

The way that I see that is...
Manifold -> Constructors -> Assemblers

I guess it's just semantics though. I see what you mean now.

[wind spade]

it's because back in U2 screws were crap (no recipe with screws was good) so people were like but then U3 came and screws are now usable, because recipes are much more balanced. Some people just hate screws because they were bad back in the days, other people hate screws because the first group of people told them they are bad. Some people hate them because they merge them to one belt and belt isn't fast enough (instead of doing what Sev did ^ ).

The real answer is that screws are fine, feel free to use them if you like the recipe path that involves them (as is true with any other item).

[median heath]

Yes, which is what he meant by:

you can get around that by having screw manufacture on site with the production chain at the cost of a bit more floor space.

[cinder silo]

The manifold holds both the rods/ingots, and the second material which is belted past the constructor, tbh I didn't even think of building quite like that, pretty cool.

[mossy crest]

That makes a ton of sense, ty

[delicate chasm]

It's
Manifold
Manifold
Manifold -----------------> Assemblers
Manifold --> Constructors-> Assemblers
Manifold
Manifold

It's also really cool.

[bleak coral]

They're in a cave, so they're not immediately noticeable

[mossy crest]

Yeah it is pretty cool. I need to do more sushi belts.

[delicate chasm]

If that's rotors you don't need sushi - it would just be an iron rod manifold. But this is Sev so it could be sushi.

[mossy crest]

But it shows copper sheets coming out of it?

[bleak coral]

yeah those are copper rotors, so it's sushi

[mossy crest]

So it would either be rods+sheets or ingots+sheets.

[bleak coral]

also the splitters are smart splitters

[delicate chasm]

I didn't look closely at the belt, but yeah, standard recipe rotors are iron rod + screw and default screw is made from iron rod, so you can do this arrangement for rotors without sushi also.

[median heath]

Ingots + Sheets in this particular setup.
Cast Screw + Copper Sheet to make Copper Rotor.

Restriction of this particular outpost was that it wasn't allowed to use Steel or Oil.

Although, now that I have a Steel Rod to Base Rotor BP I am interested to try it out.

I need to tweak/update and re-screenshot all of my BPs though.

[delicate chasm]

I can attest that it is awesome. :) I'm going to borrow your practice of mixed belts and do a very similar copper rotor assembly floor now though, I think.

[delicate chasm]

What multiples of buildings do you prefer for your assemblers in blueprints? Same question also, but foundries?
Same question to others. I'm wanting to look at it from an "I'm going to build large numbers of these arrays" perspective.

[median heath]

I'm not understanding the question.
Most Assemblers I have in 1 BP is 2.

[delicate chasm]

For doing large-scale builds where you'll repeat an array of buildings, do you prefer the BP just be 1 machine with its attachments and greebles or what?

Attachments could also be other machines that feed it for example, like your assembler+constructor+manifold.

Would that just be 1 assembler, 1 constructor, and their splitters in your BP? :)

[median heath]

RIPs, Rotors, Frames

[delicate chasm]

Now is the principle behind each BP always a...what would you call this? Microchain? A chain link?...or do you sometimes build big, long, boring production lines?

[median heath]

You are putting way more thought into this than I do.

[delicate chasm]

Really? Are you just building for resource node usage until you reach 0? You seem like you have a meta-strategy going on with your planning. I mean that to be uplifting.

[quartz violet]

okay.. I have 20 turbo fuel refineries that are 100% capacity and have absolutely no excess fuel in their internal buffer. so 100% of the fuel is going into the pipe grid

I have 80 turbofuel generators hooked up in sections of 20 broken further into manifolds of 5

I am making 375 turbo fuel and the generators need 360 to all be powered, yet 6 generators in random rows of 1 completely hooked up section are never getting enough fuel

this power plant has worked fine for 10 hours totally fine until a train got backed up for 30 seconds and somehow 3 junctions got deleted which I replaced

Conclusion: my turbofuel is evaporating for no reason

[wind spade]

are all the TF machines working at 100%? seems like it may be a piping issue

[quartz violet]

100%

I blame this intesection

that front pipe is an artery that branches into 8 lines of 5 generators

I've replaced those 3 pipes and the junction 3 times

the 0/min pipe has no fluid in it

[delicate chasm]

Just for kicks, can you throw an mk2 fluid pump on that input pipe and see if that changes anything?

[cinder silo]

Ooh! it might be worth replacing all of the pipes around, I have sometimes had pipes refuse to carry liquid because bug, often when it isn't really connected even though it bloody well should be.

The worst example I had was thanks to my mouse double clicking, I had a pipe junction inside another one, connecting to it resulted in two separate systems that shouldn't have beem.

[quartz violet]

ill try. if it doesnt work ill just disrupt the whole grid and put a spaghetti noodle in that brings the fuel to the other side of the line

[delicate chasm]

Just curious if the recalc from splitting the pipe segments does anything interesting in this case.

[quartz violet]

the person I was playing with could have probably done something dumb without knowing

they dismantled a power line connecting my hub area to the rest of the grid on accident

[cinder silo]

I made the mistake of assisting someone in multiplayer "once" ~not including family, now unless I absolutely knew the person isn't a complete dolt, I just won't enter someone elses game again, too annoying.

[quartz violet]

I end up getting bored if I dont have someone else on my world

[cinder silo]

My world is comprehensive enough that people can and often do get lost there (unless their pc can't handle the save)

[quartz violet]

maybe I just wont fix it ¯_(ツ)_/¯

its only 500ish megawatts of wavy power production graph

[cinder silo]

Eww 😛

[delicate chasm]

That wasn't very math meta of you. 😎

[true junco]

I have many BPs that are variations of one another.

Such as a series of BPs that all have 3 refineries in them. One is for pure iron ingots, another for pure copper etc. One BP for each recipie that uses an ore plus water thru a refinery. They have partial i/o manifolds. A structure around them and roofs, walkways, power, lights etc. Just string together and tie everything together.

Same for other things. Like foundries for compact steel and solid steel. Or 6x assemblers for cheap silica, or silicon circuits...

[whole heron]

500 MW? Isn't that 3.33 fuel gens?

[quartz violet]

500ish

450mw

[quartz violet]

oh hey the problem solved itself magically...

thanks terrible pipe physics

I think the fuel was just filling up the internal buffers on everything then the excess I'm making was enough to overflow through a random pipe somewhere linking 2 sections together

[cinder silo]

Even with this on-purpose inefficient non-diluting plan, 1400 packaged fuel will still pour out of the blue crater, I really didn't think that locations use through completely.

[whole heron]

There are what, 3 pure nodes and 2 regular?

Why are you making it inefficient on purpose? I'm curious.

[cinder silo]

Because far too much packaged fuel would be produced vs what I'd even use, so the setup is inefficient but as simple as it gets.

[bleak coral]

Yeah that's not exactly the spot to use for a small oil setup, considering it has more than 1/5th of the map's oil all within a 150ish meter radius

[cinder silo]

I don't actually need oil for anything else either, I can probably get like double the packaged fuel but I don't even know what to do with 1400 🤣

[bleak coral]

explorer drag races?

[vapid gorge]

nah, plutonium rods for that

[whole heron]

No use for plastic either?

[cinder silo]

Got a huge refinery in the dunes consuming the entire spire coast for rubber & plastic.

[whole heron]

Are you using Blue Crater for anything else or just the oil?

[cinder silo]

Nothing in blue crater at all right now, only a cannon exit there, I am just considering the construction of a fuel plant for the hell of it, no real purpose other than just building it.

[whole heron]

There's enough nodes there to make one or two Project Assembly parts, so to speak.

[cinder silo]

I have a combined project assembly factory up in the rocky desert.

[whole heron]

But if you only want it for oil, you could just tap less nodes and figure out something to do with it later.

Lots of water too.

[cinder silo]

Only partially working after test components but all final products emerge there, and that place has its own source of rubber & plastic from the nearby 133gw fuel plant.

[gloomy rune]

do you guys hate it when factories are messy nightmares?

[oblique hollow]

thats when they are the most hilarious

[bleak coral]

I saw a constructor in a tree recently, that certainly was something lol

[whole heron]

The more of a mess your factory is, the harder it is to upscale it.

[bleak coral]

but potentially the more clout your screenshots get

[whole heron]

You'd need to hit a critical mass where you're not sure that the thing even works.

[bleak coral]

If it pops out the HMFs at the right rate, does the how really matter 😛

[cinder silo]

Looks like blue crater is going to get slightly built up.

[whole heron]

2481.82?

[bleak coral]

he's building a johnny army

[whole heron]

No, I mean that's not evenly divisible by 300.

[median heath]

Why would it need to be?

[stoic marsh]

I guess the number of oil sources in game

[whole heron]

Yes.

[median heath]

?

[burnt plinth]

Is this a good power/plastic/rubber plant? It uses all the oil nodes in the spiral coast.

[median heath]

Oh good lord. Use Tools 😭

But also "Good is a point of view"

So if you are happy with that setup, use it.

[mystic moon]

Also, if I may ask, why turbofuel instead of diluted?

[bleak coral]

it's using both

[burnt plinth]

Isn't it more efficent?

[median heath]

😂

[bleak coral]

the meta is to skip it and go straight to nuclear, but do what you want it does get more energy

[stoic marsh]

It is, but has no sense next too for energy

[median heath]

Another one falling into the Turbofuel trap 😥

[median heath]

? Energy?

Turbofuel's only practical use atm is making bullets.

[burnt plinth]

😦 sad indeed

[mystic moon]

Efficiency is relative
It uses a little less oil per mw, but costs you in terms of sulfer and complexity

[median heath]

@whole heron 300 thing--
Were you meaning because oil usually comes in 300's?

[whole heron]

Yes. His goal is to do something with his oil and getting that 81 means tapping the impure node.

[median heath]

Stop solving forwards.

[stoic marsh]

I use it for my feul generators, it is great if you need mass energy and dont have nuclear energy unlocked yet

[median heath]

His end product is a perfect, flat 2800.

[median heath]

Or just... Diluted.
Simpler. Saves a lot of time.
Far more than enough to get you to nuclear.

[whole heron]

It was a forward facing problem in the first place. He's sinking most of it.

[median heath]

You go forward first to see what your limit is.
Then you decide on what you actually want and solve backwards from there.

Forcing the use of all extractable resources just for the sake of it is needlessly complex and is the root cause of many people's build issues.

[whole heron]

But that's the reason he's doing this in the first place.

If he just wanted vehicle fuel, those buildings are already up.

[cinder silo]

I'm mostly building for the hell of it since I already have cannon access to the blue crater, fuelling vehicles coming later when I decide what goes where.

[delicate chasm]

Building forward is perfectly valid. Setting the goal of using every extractable unit from a node is a fine goal.

That it is annoying to some people to hear that you play this way is not a consideration at worst, and a tangible benefit at best.

[burnt plinth]

Thanks for pointing out to use "Tools" great program managed to double the output.

[median heath]

❤️

It is superior.

[cinder silo]

I've been using tools for ages for production planning, best part is you can keep the plans saved in the browser and create others in new tabs within the page.

[delicate chasm]

I usually just try to find at what point each machine bends its knee to the might of three.

[cinder silo]

I mostly set a target and see what happens with resources in an area as a kind of cap, sometimes though it has caused issues like my spire coast consuming rubber/plastics refinery producing way too much but meh.

[serene oriole]

can somebody help me balance 5 to 3,75 and 1,25.

[median heath]

Manifold.

[cinder silo]

5 > (splitter) > 2.5 > (splitter) 1.25 , > (1.25+2.5) , leaves a belt with 1.25 and another with 3.75, easy.

Or yeah just build a manifold and it is tidier.

[serene oriole]

it just hit me

(your answer)

thanks alot

[mystic moon]

@serene oriole if you're set on balancing, it's easiest to think of it in terms of ratios... but also make sure to remember if you're balancing that you can use belt speed limits to your advantage

[serene oriole]

a have it balanced now, im just stupid

[cinder silo]

Missing something doesn't make one stupid, it just means you missed a detail that you later fixed.

[median heath]

No. He said it.
Only stupid people miss things.
No backsies.

||Meaning we are all collectively stupid people as we all miss things.||

[cinder silo]

My valves in a VIP was a colossal fail that made a particularly large installation fail in a rather ignomineous way.

[serene oriole]

good con. guys,bye

[cinder silo]

So it begins,

[median heath]

Thumb Mouse Button 2???

[cinder silo]

I use mouse modifiers on a lot of things up to mouse 7.

[median heath]

What's wrong with R? 😭

[cinder silo]

When I can control most of the game with just the mouse, why rest my other hand on they keyboard unnecessarilly?

[median heath]

Do you not use WASD?

[cinder silo]

I always fat fingers other keys when I use those ones.

[median heath]

Get you some hand-lipo-suction 😉

[cinder silo]

Wouldn't help a damn, my fingers are actually quite slender, I just have poor coordination in addition to terrible eyesight.

[median heath]

Brain-coordination-botox?

[mystic verge]

can someone explain how my max consumption is less than my total consumption?

[median heath]

Hoverpack.

[mystic verge]

does the hoverpack not add to max consumption?

[median heath]

No, because it isn't part of your factory.

But it does draw power, so it adds to consumption.

[mystic verge]

huh

[median heath]

Max Con is based on all connected buildings to your network.

Hoverpack isn't a building or vehicle, so it doesn't register under Max.

[bleak coral]

fun fact you can also accomplish this by underclocking low power machines enough such that their idle power is greater than their regular power
example with 10 smelters clocked to 3% then let go idle

[teal oasis]

So if you have all machines underclocked to their idle usage, can you create stable power no matter if machines are on or off?

[bleak coral]

yes, but only machines that are ~44MW or less can get to 0.1MW or lower

so it doesn't work for the more power hungry machines

also they all have to be clocked in like single digits, so it balloons machine count too much to be practical

[main dirge]

Has anyone done the maths for net throughout on a multiple-train two-station route? Had a whack at it myself but couldn't get any exact solution so just wrote a sim instead lmao

[vapid gorge]

Wdym? Train through put depends on time of trip

And a few other things

[main dirge]

More trains = more docking time, plus it's preferable to add (trip time)/(trains) wait time at a station to ensure equal spacing

[vapid gorge]

I mean sure but you’re bottle necked at your belt speed. It’s why generally it’s easier to just do 1 belt per train car

That way your buffers can keep up

[main dirge]

Yea but that means more cars than needed, somewhere not far under double

[vapid gorge]

There’s a formula on the wiki that already sorts out throughput if you really want.

[main dirge]

For a single train - with multiple trains it doesn't quite work anymore bc you've got to account for additional dock time and wait time

Is approximately right but I'm just a nerd who likes exact solutions xd

[vapid gorge]

There’s a lot to account for sure. But with multi trains you’d have to know exactly how often each train is coming in. If they aren’t at the same rate your looking at very complex math

The sort of math that gets people to only do 1 train between 2 stations

But no, I’m the years I’ve been here I haven’t heard of anything like that

[main dirge]

Train rate is easy to account for thankfully, just make each train wait (trip time)/(trains) minimum at each station, and they'll be equally spaced by that time

[vapid gorge]

If there’s no other trains using the line

Good luck with it though

[main dirge]

I just pretend signals work well enough 😂

[vapid gorge]

Signals Wirk fine, trains have to pause to let others by

[main dirge]

Overproducing between each factory so it can cope with a little loss of throughout but inefficiency make me sad

[vapid gorge]

I mean, the way around that is simply to not double up on trains and to do 1 belt per car. But you do you

[main dirge]

Eh I've found path signals like to slow down trains coming from a block approx < 2 full rails long away, even more so if any other train is nearby even if they could happily pass at full speed

[main dirge]

Trip time is quite long though so I'd need a lot less than 1 belt per car for one train, in some testing I found it'd need about a mk3 belt of input per car

Can barely fit the 5 4-car stations needed using multiple trains in my factory lol

Multiply that by how many stations I'm planning on using and at that point it'd be more time efficient to turn half the world's sulfur into compacted coal and use trucks instead of building the massive station footprints needed

[cinder silo]

I've already done half the worlds sulphur in to compacted coal, but I use belts in tunnels for it.

[whole heron]

How much sulfur do you need for full nuclear?

[cinder silo]

Not all that much tbh, not compared to turbofuel.

My place uses 15 sulphuric acid refineries.

[frail light]

are you coming from the same location? or are you coming from multiple as if for example grabbing iron ore?

[frail light]

using all material?

[whole heron]

Yes, using all the Uranium you can.

My calculations are saying about 3000.

[frail light]

it depends on recipes slightly but no more than 2 pure nodes to make the rods

that is if your maximazing rod production

[cinder silo]

I'm using 2100 uranium uses like 750 sulphur though, hmm no one sec I'll load up and recount my refineries.

[whole heron]

Looks like the Cell Alt recipe is 1:1 Uranium and Sulfur. Base recipe uses less.

5:3.

[main dirge]

Central location

[cinder silo]

Yeah remembered my refinery count incorrectly, using 1350 sulphur, 27 refineries.

[frail light]

there is only 2400 uranium on the map if i remember correclty

[main dirge]

2100

Unless I need to rebuild everything xd

[cinder silo]

2100 is the max.

[bleak coral]

Max nuke power is 3108 sulfur

[cinder silo]

3x overclocked normals getting 600ea, 1x impure for 300.

[bleak coral]

so almost half the map

[frail light]

then for each new train added double your throughput. if you are getting say 320 per a minute each train will add 320 per a minute as the unloading times are already accounted for. however if you exceed max belt speed that becomes your limiting factor

[bleak coral]

but I don't think many people go that far with nuke power

[cinder silo]

I used bog standard recipes so 1350 sulphur and 2100 uranium for the 21 fuel rods per minute.

full recycle so 5.25 plutonium per minute to the sink.

[whole heron]

Uranium Waste destruction recipe uses 216 sulfur per 600 Uranium.

[frail light]

yeah am remembering an additional impure that doesn't exist

[whole heron]

So yeah, about 3000.

That means 5000 or so sulfur that's available for other things in worst case scenario.

[main dirge]

Not input saturated (train cars aren't full), I need the amount in at load to equal amount out at unload - more trains increasing docking time thus decreases transfer rate, and in order to ensure equal spacing the trains have to wait which increases total trip time and also decreases throughput slightly

[whole heron]

I'm just trying to figure out how many batteries I can make before I enter the realm of insanity.

[bleak coral]

there's only 6840 sulfur, so it'd only be about 3700 left

[frail light]

not if you build a buffer with two belts into the station and one into the buffer than when the train is done docking it rapidly empties buffer into station or the inverse allowing constant throughput

[whole heron]

Shit, read the long line. Ok, not that much sulfur if you go full nuclear.

[bleak coral]

but also no one needs full nuclear, even max points can't use all that power and redirects resources to make more points

[main dirge]

That means more cars though - I'm not trying to get a working solution (I've already built a sim to check), I'm just wondering if anyone's solved for optimal solution

[whole heron]

True, just wondering.

There's also no recipes to stretch out your sulfur usage like there is with pretty much every metal.

[bleak coral]

yeah usually sulfur is being substituted to stretch out other stuff

[main dirge]

Why stretch out when you can entirely eliminate

[whole heron]

Well, often you can't.

[bleak coral]

to be fair sulfur only has two jobs: stretch out coal, oil, and uranium usage and make batteries

[cinder silo]

This place makes 600 per minute.

[bleak coral]

oh and make instant alu scrap if you want

lowest priority usage imo

[cinder silo]

For 600 batteries using the classic recipe though this place is needed, 1800 wire.

[frail light]

You would need more trains not cars in a train... you build a industrial storage container a tiny ways away from station and connect one belt into the buffer then two on the input to trains then flip it around two belts exiting station into the isc and one out and as long as your throughput doesn't exceed 780 per a station adding more trains is easier than adding a new station. A buffer is the optimal solution. it allows for a constant throughput even with the loading and unloading. If your not saturating your trains fully you may be better off running some drones for the items though depending on quantity.

[main dirge]

I'm using a buffer (also currently working on fluid), limited in batteries bc I'm limited by bauxite and copper so drones aren't preferable, and transferring a few k per second

Trains are defo slightly better than cars per train but it's p small, like 15-20% difference tops

Again though I'm not trying to get a solution that just works bc in that case I could just throw 20 cars at any problem, I'm interested in the optimal solution for complete throughput

Found from testing that it's difficult to actually get a situation where the input backs up at platform instead of buffer (the latter making the target throughput impossible)

Buffer-to-platform transfer rate is usually high enough as long as you're not inputting most of 2x mk5 belts or mk2 pipes

Also useful to know for space-constrained builds, currently my oil processing building only supports 4-car + 1x rear-drive trains

[dusky yacht]

@wind spade any chance the doubleclick-feature is coming back? Really miss this one 😄

[wind spade]

new tools - probably yes, in one form or another
current tools - most likely not, given the rewrite in the process

[cinder silo]

Related: with how tools stores production plans as is, will those carry forward to the new version or will they need to be re-entered?

[wind spade]

not sure if available since beginning, but there will definitely be a way to convert old plans to new plans.

[cinder silo]

Thanks 🙂

[wind spade]

at the beginning the new tools will most likely go through alpha-beta-RC-release process, and at least in alpha and part of beta the converter doesn't make sense

[cinder silo]

Some of my more simple plans I have saved as screenshots, but the space elevator one, even separated in to a basic & advanced plan is the challenge.

[wind spade]

keeping old production lines is definitely one of the priorities, but not relevant until new tools stabilise in terms of data handling/storage/format

[cinder silo]

All good, and greatly appreciated 👍

Tools has been a colossal lifeline in organising my chaos.

[dusky yacht]

Don't get me started. Actually kind of addicted, can't play without them.

[true junco]

Some people go to work and wing it. Some folks bring in whatever tools and techniques they need to get organized and increase their productivity.

[jagged warren]

yo 😎

so what stack size did u use for that graph

[rustic patio]

desmos.com/calculator/djzytmsw4h

here u can change it urself

S is stack size and C is belt speed

R is the amount of seconds that the train stops to reload, you dont need to change that

just added it as a slider because i wanted to play around with it

[jagged warren]

how did you get these

[rustic patio]

well, the stuff in {} can be ignored

its just to remove anything where the other one is bigger/where its below 0

without that it looks like this

we only care about the lower line because well, its two limits and the limit thats lower is the one that counts

[jagged warren]

that looks kinda cool

isnt that red one like hyperbolic sine rotated

it looks like it a bit

[rustic patio]

uhHH maybe

the lower one is just
train_capacity/roundtrip_time

S is stack size, times 32 because a train can hold 32 stacks

x is time, divided by 60 to convert to minutes, because we have round trip time in seconds and throughput in minutes

[jagged warren]

mhm

i see, also playing around a bit, this is what would happen if the conveyor had a -1/min throughput

pretty cool

[rustic patio]

B is just
time_spent_actually_filling_the_train * beltspeed * 2 / round_trip_time

[abstract thorn]

hey guys which one should i take

i was going for the fuel rod

[jagged warren]

2

[abstract thorn]

so the one in the middle

[jagged warren]

yes id recommend that

[wind spade]

first of all:

• you can get all recipes, so there's no wrong choice
• all recipes are situational and you'll get different answers from different people

[next pewter]

So, to conclude:
A train (the blue line) is faster/has more througput on long distances. The tipping point is at (a few examples):

• 600m for a 300/min belt, stacksize 200. (~42 foundations)
  1600 m for a 300/min belt, stacksize 500 (~200 foundations)
  1600 for a 120m/min belt, stacksize 200

[abstract thorn]

i see

thank u

[cerulean vault]

Apparently there is no second.

[wind spade]

now, regarding the recipes:

• first one makes more stators, from steel, but you have to add quickwire
• second one saves uranium at the cost of adding oscillators
• third one makes more wiring out of stators, but you have to add high speed connectors (quickwire + oil)

choice is yours 🙂

[wind spade]

no, just takes a while to type 🙂

[oblique hollow]

oooh wait this is the perfect moment to post the new experimental thing i did

[wind spade]

(quick, do it for those three recipes)

[abstract thorn]

i went with the second one

since fuel rod is kinda u will never have enough

[wind spade]

again, choice is yours 🙂 just don't blindly follow random numbers from random people, always ask "what does this recipe do for me" and decide based on that info 🙂

[wind spade]

I'd add (50% more) in the benefits section, don't see a reason for it to be for ECRs only and not for UFRs

[abstract thorn]

i mean i surely know xD i have a messy factory and power could help

[oblique hollow]

ah so now we do want the percentages

[wind spade]

ummm, I always said "if it can be compared just within the scope of the recipe, then go for it"

you can compare ECR costs between the two or UFR production between the two
you can't compare e.g. quickwire cost

[oblique hollow]

aight then

[true junco]

I always want the percentages... and i also want everything on the wiki to assume the default recipie is used for all precursor materials. The damned wiki assumes everyone is using "Iron Wire" for example.

[abstract thorn]

just wondering what is more useful than the others but thank u for the help

[wind spade]

that is going to change and wiki won't assume anything and won't compare recipes, but paths 🙂

[wind spade]

that's highly situational 🙂 depends on your goals, progression, other unlocked recipes, available resources, preferences, ... 🙂

[abstract thorn]

yeah i get that

my goal is to make unholy amount of power

[oblique hollow]

Hence why we are kicking the current analysis out

It sucks

[wind spade]

well still better than the previous one 😛

[oblique hollow]

What i posted above is a concept for what the new one could look like

still working on details of it

[wind spade]

well the one you picked indeed helps you to get more power out of uranium 🙂

[abstract thorn]

i have adhd so sorry if i forgot ur ping but thank u!

[delicate chasm]

Since we don't know that the user is using nuclear power to begin with (maybe sinking uranium rods) I understand that this could just be a straight loss in power overall but maybe we should do the math and change the note to something that makes it clear that this recipe loses power compared to the standard on a per-item basis if you are not using the uranium fuel rods for power?

If you are burning the rods, then even after considering the extra refinement steps, you DO experience a net gain in energy production by using the alt, do you not? 🤔

This one is kind of a suspicious case because you'd not want to make special notes for most items but this one is a generator fuel. I feel that it deserves the special note in this case.

[oblique hollow]

the power loss disregards power generation

i simply forgot to remove the "power efficiency negated" note

that recipe simply IS less power efficient, by nature of needing 2 manufacturers alone for the ingredients

[delicate chasm]

👍 Yeah I could see someone taking the wrong idea from the note that it isn't as power efficient, given that their goal is probably to generate more power.

It is indeed less power efficient for the chain.

[oblique hollow]

this is only for the recipe

not the whole end result of this produciton line

[delicate chasm]

"This recipe costs more energy than the standard" in THIS case gives an implication that you are not going to have a net gain in your end result.

End result isn't in the scope of the page, but specifically omitting that detail in this case would be in keeping with the scope AND not potentially give the false impression.

[oblique hollow]

if i remove the "negating the energy efficiency" note which shouldnt be there in the first place, then it isnt ambiguous

"This recipe uses more power. Period"

Uses more power doesnt mean "you now have an energy deficit"

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, exactly. Not debating anything here - I was just adding the final thoughts, as you have already stated that you forgot to remove that part.