math-and-meta

[whole heron]

Ok, how would one connect a 600 m^3 pipe to 20 refineries in that case?

[median heath]

Loop it.

[ember fractal]

just manifold it

mk2 for the main manifold pipe, and mk1 to feed each refinery

[vocal tundra]

Wouldnt treat pipes like belts if i were you

[ember fractal]

if it works, it works

🤷‍♂️

[snow dove]

doesn’t really matter if you use mk1 or mk2

[median heath]

Doesn't even have to take crazy amounts of space.
Like this type of loop works fine.

@whole heron

[snow dove]

that pic with the rain looks noice

wish weather could be toggled with a console command

[median heath]

Turn lumen on and that pic will be pitch black 😉

[snow dove]

lumen?

[vocal tundra]

Lighting tech used in ue5

[snow dove]

oh

[median heath]

Update 8 stuff....

[snow dove]

i really need to watch the U8 vids

[median heath]

🙄

[snow dove]

i’ve been busy okay

[median heath]

For months?

[snow dove]

i watched the first few, sorta

just not the most recent ones

[vocal tundra]

Tbf i havent watched the majority of the u8 videos yet

I just kinda know whats coming from what ive seen here in the past week

[oblique hollow]

fun fact: pipes can in fact flow both ways at the same time

you can fill a pipe from both ends and you can drain it from both ends simultaneously

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, each side of the pipe is handled independently. It can flow out from center, in toward center from both sides, or in one end and out the other.

On any given tick it will be in, out, or equal with the segment that is connected at each side.

[ember fractal]

The pipe can be full and empty at the same time, it's a quantum pipe

[delicate chasm]

It also means when the machine glugs 5 units of liquid out of the pipe, the mark 2 will attempt to fill itself at a faster rate than mark 1, which abruptly lowers the feeder pipe's level during a game tick and reduces the flow rate downstream to below 600m3/min.

Flow rate is based on pipe fill level, so depending on HOW you are filling and draining, equal inputs and outputs can give you different results.

If it's all continuously moving and looped on the ends, you avoid this problem for the most part.

[mystic moon]

The biggest advantage with a looped pipe is that it's already flowing from both directions so a "glug" doesn't interrupt normal flow for downstream machines as it would otheriwise

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, that's precisely it. The whole network is trying to equalize at once and so a dead-end manifold will have a significantly reduced flow rate at the end and it can starve more than just the final segment despite having theoretically enough water (because the machine won't take every last drop; it's taking at most 50% of the incoming flow).

Well it's taking at most 50% if the segment after it is also being drained completely.

[median heath]

@wind spade funny interaction about Cast Screw being "meh" --

Your tool would rather use Cast Screw than make Steel Screw from Coke. 😄

This is also super weird, because it skips making HOR entirely:

[snow dove]

it takes the HOR from the rubber since it needs rubber anyways

[median heath]

Yes, I can see that.

But it is "best" to just convert all to HOR and have 2 different Recycled Loop chains.

The above is just the tool being stupid in "maximize" mode.

Once you switch back to a defined end number it corrects itself.

I feel like I will have to build 2 HMF outposts next run though.
Because finding 1 location to pump out 135/min from is rough.

[delicate chasm]

How many standard nobelisks to kill a space giraffe in one detonation?

[pallid hull]

Yes.

[delicate chasm]

What about a fellow pioneer then?

[pallid hull]

Even more YES.

Tbh I don't really know exactly how many nobelisks to kill a bean

[placid oyster]

1 nuke

[delicate chasm]

If I cross-reference the space giraffe page with the pioneer page and the health & damage page AND the nobelisk page I can find the answer but that's like asking a casual on a laptop to render the new Pixar film. My internet shits itself every time I try to use fandom websites. >_<

[pallid hull]

standard nobelisks

[delicate chasm]

After 4 minutes of loading I got the space giraffe page to finally not drop packets enough to show me text but was hoping somebody knew.

[prisma kraken]

last i checked, it took 2 nukes

[pallid hull]

4 or 5 nobelisks, I did a quick google

[pallid hull]

All the nukes

[delicate chasm]

You're a saint, thank you. Google hid the truth from my eyes.

[prisma kraken]

i think there's a thing where actually hitting a critter takes 1 hp away

might be why there's some inconsistency

does the wiki list the actual hitpoint values?

[delicate chasm]

Not for the bean page. It just says they have twice the health of a pioneer, which I understand to be 10.0 (?)

[pallid hull]

Not really it say stuff like not greater than 50

[pallid hull]

For the bean the wiki said 200 hp and the standard nobelisk does no greater than 50

[prisma kraken]

i actually found it listed on the giraffe page as '200'

[wind spade]

tool in maximise mode just doesn't optimise for anything 😛

[median heath]

True.

The Cast Screw thing was interesting though (and not in Maximize)

[wind spade]

I assume cost of coke is just bigger than cost of iron for screws

[median heath]

Fair.
It originally tried to do Steel Rod -> Screw (which with Coke Steel was allowed)
But if you disallow Steel Rod, it will not use the same Coke Steel to make Steel Screw and instead switches to Cast.

So for Steel Rod apparently the cost is fine.
But for Steel Beam it becomes too high and switches.

[wind spade]

even without coke, it's preferences are steel rod > normal screws > steel screws

[median heath]

Yes...
Not what I am saying.

With Coke, preference is Rod > Cast > Steel

[wind spade]

well from the eyes of tools, cast = normal

same resource cost

[median heath]

Fair.

Fix it. 😛

[wind spade]

fix what? 😛 it's correctly optimising for resource cost 😉

[delicate chasm]

Wait what? Due to the ultimate limitation on productivity being a finite number of nodes the calculator prefers resource efficiency?

[tropic crest]

batteries are good to have right?

[vocal tundra]

Yeah they are needed for drone fuel

[prisma kraken]

also in phase 4 elevator

[tropic crest]

i mean like the power storage ones

[delicate chasm]

I feel like that question was supposed to be in reference to power storage units for some reason. Intuition.

If that's what you meant, yes, those too are good to have. They smooth over transitional periods in your growth.

[prisma kraken]

oh, power storage, yeah, its +1

[wind spade]

it does, yeah. There's no real reason for the tool to prefer anything else (though I want to add more settings to new tool).

space is pretty much infinite (you'll run out of things to make before running out of space), power too (you'll run out of resources before having issues with power, unless you build crazy stuff like tons of trains and jump pads)

[delicate chasm]

Yeah for sure, I agree with the decision to build that mode first and foremost. Just a friendly "AH AH AH 😎 👉 👉 " aimed at Sev there from me. :)

[prisma kraken]

its kind of expensive to build, but it saves my bacon at times

[tropic crest]

thank y'all for the help i was trying to justify building them

[prisma kraken]

really its kinda meant for two things, when you oopsie and overdraw your grid, and also late game for running the particle accelerators

[tropic crest]

i have very ineffcient farms rn its my first playthrough and im trying to fix it i forget the sink is a thing

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, doing batch production on a substantially larger scale than your stable grid allows can also be a useful 'stair step' growth plan design, particularly if you prefer to do single-site construction projects from start to finish.

Build a grid that is relatively enormous compared to your consumption -> Build a factory that is too large for your grid to sustain -> unlock new power related things -> Scale up grid -> Unstable factory becomes 24/7 stable -> build more sophisticated factory from outputs -> unlock progression stuff -> repeat

I don't like to do a lot of back and forth travel so I use a loop that looks kind of like this and try to leave logistics in my wake.

[tropic crest]

i built my first "factory" for the modular engine and it was a brain bash until i started to write it down and think about it

[prisma kraken]

the trick i use with power storage, which gives me a nice buffer is that i just build 10 storages for every 8 coal generators

just because 10 unit will fit in the same space

[tropic crest]

im using fuel currently trying to get turbofuel

[prisma kraken]

it gives me a nice buffer

nothing wrong with either as mid game power

[delicate chasm]

Turbofuel is a fine project for its own sake. It ends up not being worth it in most players' estimations by the end, but it's definitely a good solid logistical challenge.

[prisma kraken]

fuel can be a bit tricky if you don't fill the pipes completely

[tropic crest]

the pipes were tricky so i just made a water tower of fuel and that solved all of my problems

[prisma kraken]

yeah, its a good intermediate level build for providing some solid production on the way to nuclear

[wind spade]

personally I'd skip turbofuel for nuclear. Diluted fuel makes enough power and turbofuel comes too late to be relevant imo

[prisma kraken]

i will say that i'd much rather spend time on nuclear power than big turbofuel

[tropic crest]

im just trying to put off the adaptive control unit it looks complicated

[prisma kraken]

they're possibly the trickiest space elevator part in the game

[tropic crest]

ive stayed away from quartz the whole time and i dont want to dabble in them

[prisma kraken]

for me its sort of a toss up btw ACU's and TPR's

i'll say embracing oscillators is something that makes things easier

its sort of painful to set up oscillator production due to the low volume production rate of them in the manufacturers

but there are a few alt recipes that take them, and they're really good alt recipes

[tropic crest]

are the geothermal things even worth making the seem unreliable

[delicate chasm]

They are worth it if you have ready access to the materials. If it's going to be the focus of an entire session to get the mats for 2 of them, then no.

It's free extra energy. Just add cable.

[prisma kraken]

they're essetially free power and like you'll get max out of hitting all the geotherm nodes of 4.5 gw on average

expensive things to build and time consuming running around the map to build them, but can provide a nice little bump in power

[primal flicker]

So, not worth it if you're already >100GW and nowhere close to using it all.

[true junco]

4.5GW is pretty low since you can turn 600 Oil into 20GW...

[whole heron]

It doesn't hurt though. They don't consume anything, so you just need a bunch of materials.

It'd be neat if you could use geysers as water sources instead.

[mossy crest]

Toying with the idea of doing a full build with each node being a miner/truck station combo. Is it viable for a truck to support a saturated Mk3 miner or Mk5 belt for relatively short distances?

I.e., each node gets its own truck and they all bring resources to a central location that feeds a factory w/belts.

[quartz violet]

how many computers do you guys think is reasonable for everything? Im thinking of expanding to 15 per minute

[placid oyster]

For everything as in "every buildable and crafting need" or "every production line"?

[quartz violet]

I mainly meant for production purposes

I did a bit of looking around on the wiki and 15 should probably be more than enough for anything I'll do

[placid oyster]

I would recommend against doing a centralized computer factory for that, and just going for smaller computer builds inside each factory that needs some

But if you still want to do it, you can run some quick checks by doing a dummy production line in SFTools with the stuff you would wanna produce

And inputting X computers per minute

[quartz violet]

yeah

maybe I need to actually check how much oil that uses with the recipe I want to use

[placid oyster]

I think 15 computers per min is like 300 oil?

Thats what my factory uses

[quartz violet]

caterium computers + caterium circuit boards just because it would be simple to build

[placid oyster]

Alltough it is a bit innefficient since I use 11.25 electrode cbs

[placid oyster]

Yeah I think it would be around 200-300 oil

Thats my main recipe

[quartz violet]

ill check

I have the crystal computer alt combos already, its just I would rather not build a huge factory with it

[mossy crest]

For my game I calculated what it would take to finish all the Phase 4 space elevator parts in ~8 hours w/all alternate recipes and everything unlocked. For that I got 26.25/m computers required.

[placid oyster]

Yeah, so you need around 25 just for ACUs

[quartz violet]

yep 300 oil

[vapid gorge]

They're good for certain situations - like wanting to charge up a Battery Back up continuously that you can then kick start a big project. Like I charged a 15,000mw battery back to kick start my turbo fuel and I still have it connected in case the power station crashes

[prisma kraken]

that's a pretty smart idea

[hardy sail]

Hey could someone help me with the maths on my RIP factory

Fairly early game

Mk2 belts mk1 miners n such

I just can't balance it

[vapid gorge]

You’re trying to manually split items?

[hardy sail]

I can just use an online calculator

just solved all of my problems

unfortunate that I had to

but

[frosty owl]

Imagines a "manual splitter"

[hardy sail]

slave labour

[frosty owl]

Everyday Ficsit experience

[hardy sail]

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN REDACTED FOR COMPANY SAFTEY

[vapid gorge]

why not use a manifold?

[hardy sail]

If I knew how to make one sure

I know what it is but

[vapid gorge]

!wikisearch manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[hardy sail]

beyond that

[hardy sail]

OH thats a manifold?

[vapid gorge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwguwhizdlE

[hardy sail]

been doing that anyway

most of my factory's run on manifolds lol

[vapid gorge]

Why did you need to 'calculate the split' then?

[hardy sail]

i wanna know exactly how many things need to go where

having belts jam freaks me out

[vapid gorge]

ah so just multiplication?

Like if you have 10 machines that each need 10 screws per min you need 100 screws pm?

[hardy sail]

yeah

I can do multiplication im not that dumb

[frosty owl]

With slow belts (mk1/2) you can do that decently just by looking at the belts. Add checking the numbers on machines and you have all the precision you might need ^^

[vapid gorge]

what did you need the calc for then? Just curious

[hardy sail]

i confuse myself sometimes, I over complicate the math and then I cant un screw it

[vapid gorge]

did you use the calculator on SCIM?

[frosty owl]

Come to the load-balance side, we have non-backing-up-belts leading to machines

[hardy sail]

how

i need that

[vapid gorge]

don't - if you have issues with manifolds and making calculations Load Balancing is worse

[wind spade]

Pain and tears

[frosty owl]

How do you overcomplicated what's on one belt?
Which part gets overcomplicated?

[hardy sail]

you know whats funny

I dont know,

[vapid gorge]

use this - I think you'll get less confused https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=e0b5CINJHhynZbW57aeG

[hardy sail]

thats the calculator I used

[vapid gorge]

ah good! it's the better of the 2

[hardy sail]

I wanted to do everything myself is the issue

[wind spade]

You can

[hardy sail]

I ahve something I need help with now

[vapid gorge]

you could use spread sheets to keep track of the math I guess? or just a lot of hand written notes

[hardy sail]

it doesnt sound hard but my brain cant wrap around it

[wind spade]

The tool just gives you numbers, doesn't tell you how to build it

[hardy sail]

I have two belts one with 120 on it and the other with 60

[vapid gorge]

sure

[hardy sail]

I need a single 180 belt to go into 6 constructors

[wind spade]

Why do you need single belt?

[frosty owl]

More careful layout of belts, overall.
Eg: instead of merging 10 to feed 5, you merge 2 to feed 1 ten times or do a 1->5->10 split after merging 10
With that, no machines have items backing up behind them as long as the system runs as you expected (not too many items coming in, outputs not backing up)

[hardy sail]

how do I balance it so the materials are evenly distibuted

[vapid gorge]

manifolds balance them out after time

[wind spade]

You can just use the existing belts

You know how much each xonstructor uses

[hardy sail]

30/min

[wind spade]

So split each belt to that amount of consrructors

[hardy sail]

oh wait

[wind spade]

So that it's fully used

[hardy sail]

yeah thats

so easy

[wind spade]

🙂

[vapid gorge]

gl, try not to burn out load balancing things xD

[hardy sail]

ill have to practice first

[vapid gorge]

load balancing gets complicated very quickly after the first couple tiers

[hardy sail]

ill come back if I need more help (( will)

[vapid gorge]

like, needing 10x the amount of time to set up complicated

[frosty owl]

One doesn't have to use always either one or the either ;)

[placid oyster]

Yeah, everything has its usecases ;)

[pallid hull]

What is the biggest balancer that any of you have stuffed into a BP maker

[quartz violet]

At least 2

[vapid gorge]

Zero size. I don't use them xD

or blue prints actually

[pallid hull]

If only you could make circular blueprints circular then you would be using them all over

[fading urchin]

Glad to hear I’m not alone on not using blueprints 😮‍💨

[terse ledge]

1 + 1 = 2

[wind spade]

spam goes to #off-topic-general

or ideally nowhere

[terse ledge]

It said math 😦

[vocal tundra]

We got a comedian

[wind spade]

A channel for sharing and discussing factory builds, material ratios, so on and so forth. Useful sites for making/calculating factory designs and outputs will get pinned.

[median heath]

||You don't put the spam on your sandwiches?||

[delicate chasm]

Yeah because to be honest, it's more like (0.15 + 0.15 + 0.2) * 2 = 1

and now you have half of your factory built and 12 hours have passed.

[placid oyster]

I put real hog ham

sorry had to get meta

[terse ledge]

I’m more of a peppered turkey kinda guy

[delicate chasm]

24=8*3
12=8*3/2
8=(4)2
4+2()

36 = 420```

[terse ledge]

https://tenor.com/view/bravo-applause-round-of-standing-gif-20790999

[delicate chasm]

Those using blueprints - what sizes are your smelter prefabs? Factors of 2 or 5? Full set of 10 on a 4x4?

[oblique hollow]

i just use sets of 5

easy to turn into a set of 4

[delicate chasm]

Are your feed manifolds included in your BP?

[oblique hollow]

usually, though i think i might experiment with seperate ones

as for smelters its easy

but for any multi-input machine, always included

[delicate chasm]

Right on, I was fiddling last night and trying to decide if the 10-piece was actually a good idea or if I should leave it at 8.

[oblique hollow]

considering that U8 will include quick switch within categories, i can just make Left-Right version of BPs

and then put them all into their own small subcategories

[delicate chasm]

Ayyy, that's what I'm doing too. :) Hence wondering if it was worth it to make a third version that is basically both sides.

[noble timber]

I should probably start using blue prints…

[oblique hollow]

i would just keep a one-sided one and then switch to the mirrored direction one

as any mirrored machine array is just one that is left-flow + one that is right-flow, one of which being turned 180°

[delicate chasm]

Yeah the 10 piece is that, and actually loops one end to the other and I was considering if keeping that design making a sister BP that has corner splitters for tiling.

There's just enough space for 10 smelters and 1 belt to wrap around on one side along the edge of 4 foundations. A pair of lifts to go up and over the central feed manifold - it's fairly compact and looks nice, but it wouldn't scale up that much before hitting belt caps.

It's fine for a small factory just doing 600 ore on standard recipes but then I get 4 tiles. I kind of think I can do better than that with verticality and just 1 side, so the other face can be a twin processing a whole different node.

[west orchid]

guys i want to move on my base to center of the map. Because im slightly getting closer to late game so i need lots of resources and stuff. Is that logical also if it is do u guys know where is the best spot to move on for late game

[wind spade]

"best" is subjective, but usually it's recommended to not centralise your production, rather split into several factories all over the map

[oblique hollow]

make a production for the higher tier parts near the center

then export from there to your base

[west orchid]

ill product stuffs far away ill only carry the production they made with train

[oblique hollow]

you dont need to move your entire base to the center

[west orchid]

my base is bottom of the map rn but if i need to get resources and product them from center or more above of it, it will take so much time to arrive to my base so maybe even the production speed is higher than the train, the efficiency can be lower

[oblique hollow]

if it is a small quantity of items, then the next transport method you unlock in tier 7 / 8 will greatly help

designed specifically for transporting small quantities over very long distances

and still: building a train line from the middle to your base is STILL more efficient and faster than relocating your entire base

[west orchid]

oh ok thx

[prisma kraken]

i've done a 4-to-4 noclip one

never really found a use for it though

[pallid hull]

6 to 6 I the max I've done, with LOADS of clipping

[prisma kraken]

i find that the application of balancers in the game really only becomes a need with multiple lines coming off a train

and there's sorta ways of doing that without creating a stand-alone balancer (in essense, you split the lines on train loading, and merge them after the buffered unload)

i haven't really found a use-case for more than 2x780 belts of a single product, which is why i haven't really found a use for them

i can see some theoretical cases for using standalone balancers as an industrial grade solution for balancing out multiple lines of quickwire or something of that volume, but i've just personally never found a need personally

[wind spade]

not even then - just put each car into one belt

train is essentially just a belt, what you put into it on one end, you get that much on the other end

[prisma kraken]

unless the train is making multiple drop off stops

i've never run into such use cases

[wind spade]

then it's like a manifold

each stop is one split belt and it balances itself over time

[prisma kraken]

if designed properly, yeah

[wind spade]

even if not designed properly. As long as you don't have slow belt somewhere or something like that, it will balance itself eventually

[pallid hull]

Yeah, I've noticed that the only scenario in my builds where a load balancer would actually do a decent amount of good was because of poor design choices

That and having semi seperate systems with different manifolds

[prisma kraken]

there's a point in scale where being clever about the belting probably isn't the correct choice anymore and something like an industrial-grade balancer makes more sense, but i'm not sure you're going to hit it in any practical way

[wind spade]

separation > balancing

if you need 2400, you split it into e.g. 4 modules needing 600 and each gets a 600 belt, no need to balance between the modules

[pallid hull]

Yes I now try to seperate to the lowest common number for simpler systems and underclock for the bigger ones

[prisma kraken]

its sort of a moot counter example, but i could see a case for an ore train that's picking up several different miners that are pure and normal

[wind spade]

usually the separation should be based on what amounts you have on the belt before/want to have on the belt after

[wind spade]

each miner goes to own car

[prisma kraken]

i may do something like that with the pink forest and bauxite

[wind spade]

or even if you merge multiple miners into one car -> you treat that car as having the total sum of resources

(tho personally I'd do transfer stations instead of having train with multiple stops)

[prisma kraken]

i might do something where i split each node into 2 cars, each taking 690

[pallid hull]

I just spahgettied the entire way through it with a jetpack and nobelisks

[prisma kraken]

390+300 from a pure & normal miner

but that isn't really a proper balancer

[wind spade]

or merge the two normal miners for 780+780+600

[prisma kraken]

yeah, i'm at this point just noodling about the different ways of doing it

[ember fractal]

it's all 600s
4 pure nodes with mk3 miner and clocked to 750/m will give you
600+600+600+600+600

normal nodes at 250% give 600

[prisma kraken]

i'm not even sure if i want to use trains, being honest

[ember fractal]

2 impure nodes at 250% gives 600

[wind spade]

why clock to 750 and not 780?

[pallid hull]

SPAHGETTI, SPAHGETTI, SPAHGETTI!!

[ember fractal]

cuz 750 works out to 600+150, and if you bring 4 pure nodes together, you have five 600s

[wind spade]

or have four 780s 😛

and have extra 120 material

[ember fractal]

yeh, i'm just saying for blueprinting, it's easy if you base everything off of inputs of 600

[wind spade]

or base your blueprints around 780 😛

[ember fractal]

that extra 30 from pure nodes, it's meh

[ember fractal]

negative, because that only targets pure nodes

if you want a universal blueprint that can apply to any node purity, 600 is the way to go

[prisma kraken]

the extra 180 from pure nodes is tricky for blueprints

[ember fractal]

that's why I said clock to 750, and combine the 150s to get another 600

[wind spade]

I don't want to limit myself because I use blueprints 😛

(also, manifolds are easy enough to be built without blueprints imo)

or just with one machine blueprinted

[ember fractal]

you do you of course

my 600 strategy works well for me
I only waste 30 mineral per pure node, which is not a big deal to me

[prisma kraken]

depends on scale and goals

[ember fractal]

true

for rarer resources like quartz, sulfur, bauxite, you might wanna go the full 780

[prisma kraken]

that 30 extra for bauxite or sulfur can be a big deal

[wind spade]

my wish is for people to stop treating sulfur like a rare resource 😄

[prisma kraken]

bauxite for me is becoming a lot more of a thing than to be careful about than sulfur

[pallid hull]

It's prolly because there's only 1 sulfur node in most of the southern map

[wind spade]

there's just one map

[pallid hull]

Southern part of the map

[wind spade]

well almost like the game is trying to push you to have factories all over the map 😛

[prisma kraken]

i'd coult there to be two if you consider jungle spires as southern side of the map, 3 if you also include the southern swamp

[pallid hull]

And new players not wanting to do outposting

[prisma kraken]

there is a ridiculous amount of sulfur on the north end of the map though

[pallid hull]

Yea right around the northern forest is a butt-load

[wind spade]

that's like not wanting to shoot guns in RDR2 😄

[pallid hull]

[prisma kraken]

900 in NF (though its limited mid game, you need mk3 miners to pull more than 450 from it)

[ember fractal]

i'm using all those 900 for my turbofuel lol

[prisma kraken]

for me, its going to compacted steel & batteries

[pallid hull]

I forgor about jungle spires

[prisma kraken]

yeah, that's a wacky one, lol

[ember fractal]

i might do batteries in the swamp lmao

[pallid hull]

I Like the idea of making a massive uranium fuel facility there because of the spooky fog, I think the atmosphere will bode well with a nuclear vibe

[ember fractal]

true

the swamp already feels polluted

good place to dump your radioactive waste lol

[pallid hull]

Oh that or the southern forest to the east of grass fields, both feel like the place to put spooky looking things

[sturdy glacier]

Hello, fellow engineers!
Is there such a thing as Conveyor Splitting Calculator, or can i just rely on simple image/text schemes?

[median heath]

What would such a thing be used for?

[pallid hull]

What are you trying to achieve?

[wind spade]

don't think there's one out there. People mostly don't balance things anyway

[whole heron]

I think one of the two major tools has one but it's kinda pointless since everyone just manifolds everything.

[wind spade]

neither SCIM nor SFTools have it

[pallid hull]

Scim has a very limited selection of diagrams

[whole heron]

Must have imagined it.

[wind spade]

SCIM has just a few examples yeah

but not a calculator per say

[whole heron]

Wiki has some examples too. https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Balancer

[sturdy glacier]

The SatisfactoryTools gave us a scheme for 2.5 computers + 2.5 oscillators that splits 145 plastic as 100+45, I'm sure you can evenly split it by some splitter+merger ratio magic

[median heath]

Single splitter.

[signal ruin]

I want to make a production line for AI limiters but I don't want to have to throttle down any smelters, Does anybody have any helpful math advice because I've spent the last 30 minutes trying to figure this out and I keep finding mistakes in my work

[median heath]

but I don't want to have to throttle down any smelters

Can you clarify the "why not?" behind this?

[signal ruin]

Because I already have my smelters set up and it was a pain to get the load balancer working properly with the ore supply that I have

[median heath]

Load balancer?

[signal ruin]

I have three pure nodes of Caterium supplying 16 smelters

[vocal tundra]

🌈manifold🌈

[signal ruin]

is that the word I should have used?

yeah okay, the manifold

[median heath]

Manifolds and Load Balancers are completely different things.

But also:

Running AILs @ 100% needs:
Copper Sheet @ 250%
--Copper Ingot @ 166.66666666%
Quickwire @ 166.6666666%
--Caterium Ingot @ 133.3333333%

Multiply whole setup by 3.

Running AILs @ 300% needs:
Copper Sheet @ 750%
--Copper Ingot @ 500%
Quickwire @ 500%
--Caterium Ingot @ 400%

[signal ruin]

my apologies, I'm still learning new things about this game all the time

[median heath]

!wikisearch manifold

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[signal ruin]

Thank you so much

[median heath]

Example image:

(Before anyone else gets mad at me, that's the only SS of a manifold I have that isn't sushi...)

[vapid gorge]

I just don't have much use for them - all my stuff is curved or tailor made for a section.

the only bits I end up copying are things I've used micro manage mod with and the BP machine doesn't remember size differences sooooo...

[fading urchin]

The part I struggle with is applying blanket blueprints to custom projects. I never know how many of what machine I’m going to need until I’ve finalized a build plan, by that point (for me) it’s like trying to put a square in a circle when implementing a blueprint into that equation. I’m approaching 1000 hours on this save which is essentially my first ever real play through, I’ve developed a sort of style that’s also difficult for me to build in a blue print.

One might say, “why not build a blueprint after finalizing the plan”? Because to me, that’s just building the same factory twice but having to fill in the blanks, which I very often overlook.

[median heath]

BP's aren't for custom projects.
So if you do a lot of custom work, you won't use a lot of BPs (if any) -- and that is perfectly fine.

[fading urchin]

There’s a running aesthetic throughout each of my factories, however all slightly varied with spacing of machines and stuff like that.

[fading urchin]

True, and I’m kind of at the point in the game where everything is a custom build; hand selecting which thing I want to automate next (barring a power grid boost that I can’t will myself to start on)

[median heath]

Aye. That's where a lot of people don't use the feature.
Which is fine, because it's not designed to be used by people who build in that custom way.

[fading urchin]

I’m in this weird spot where I should really move up to nuclear but I don’t have enough remaining power on my grid to support another 30kmw operation

[median heath]

GW?

Why press 3 letters when you can press 2? 😉

[fading urchin]

Yeah actually sorry about that. I never know when to differentiate 🤣

[median heath]

kGTW 😉

[vapid gorge]

Power storage to kick start the new operation 🙂

I have a 15gw bank I used to bootstrap my fuel power station

[fading urchin]

How many storage units is that??

[vapid gorge]

150

[median heath]

It's over 9000

[fading urchin]

Hmm. That sounds so much easier than building a fuel plant to power a nuclear plant lmfao

[vapid gorge]

power storages are small though and you can stack them

plus they can be daisy chained

[median heath]

And you can BP a 3x3 foundation grid of them and spam it.

And yes, I meant 3x3

[fading urchin]

Haha, that could be something I could BP

[vapid gorge]

I custom made my power storage though xD it's the concrete building there

[median heath]

Because they fully pack a 3x3 without gaps, which makes spamming the BP easier than trying to do a 4x4 of them.

[fading urchin]

Are those rounded windows a modded unit??

[vapid gorge]

yeah Structural Solutions

I'm sure a vanilla version will be made eventually though,

[median heath]

<SevQuote1 that I am not allowed to use anymore>

[fading urchin]

Ah, makes sense. Cobalt, if you’ve got the time in the near future I’d like to get some time with you to discuss nuclear

Is… overwhelming haha

[vapid gorge]

depending on what you want could do it now?

[fading urchin]

Hmm. The hardest part for me right now is understanding how to not perpetuate waste but scale the plant to where I want it. My goal is to OC 25 reactors to 200% - partly because I find the math simpler instead of 250 OC, and also I’m not running a SOTA pc and I think 25 is a reasonable number for what I want out of the game

[vapid gorge]

Well you know about plutonium rods right?

[fading urchin]

I’m being challenged by sftools trying to calculate a build plan from start to finish, have considered making each individual part in a modular factory then moving them to a central location for MFG.

And yes, that’s what I think is mixing me up is how to math out the correct number of PFR for 25 reactors

Including regular uranium fuel rods

[vapid gorge]

I think you're making it more complicated on yourself - each uranium rod will produce a static amount of waste being burned. It doesn't matter what clock speed you're doing it at

if you burn 1 Ur rod pm? that's 50 waste pm

in that regard all you have to do is tally up rods burned pm, you get the waste pm, then you can make your Plutonium rod plans

[fading urchin]

So 25*50 + pfr waste?

[vapid gorge]

is the 25 in that the number of fuel rods?

[fading urchin]

25 in reference to number of generators, but now I think I may still be misunderstanding because one generator does != 1 rod/min

[vapid gorge]

0.2 rods pm

so at 200% it'd be 0.4 rods pm per reactor

25 reactors for that would need 10 rods pm

1x Normal Uranium Node can max out 14.4 Ur rods pm if you use the most efficient recipes in case you were curious

[vapid gorge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=8O0k60ZXusz4gjpIR0BI

[vapid gorge]

and this would be how to get rid of the waste from that plan https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=IIBxGA3COvYtH51tCxBf

[fading urchin]

I noticed that plan is using beacons, should I be wary of using that recipe?

[vapid gorge]

Maybe? It's unclear how far 1.0 is.

and it's likely that they'll do a big rebalance then so everything breaks

Maybe. Who knows

I'll be modding back in beacons because I can't change my Rod factory xD

[vocal tundra]

The big rebalance is basically doomsday for existing save files

[vapid gorge]

I'm 100% sure someone will do a 'Classic Recipe' mod though.
Because if no one else does I'll learn how to do it xD

[median heath]

Just use it.
When rebalance hits that will be the least of your worries.

[primal flicker]

Is it really? I wonder how big the overall impact will be, and which recipes will be most affected....

[median heath]

Big.
Unknown but most likely "most of them"

[vapid gorge]

I'm honestly curious if it'll happen. There's a big enough community of made maps that having a doomsday wipe might not be worth the 'rebalance'

[fading urchin]

Heard. And one last thing, I’d honestly love to have a veteran pop into my save with me just to get some advice for next steps, I just finished supercomputers and have HMF’s just hitting a sink and I’m curious whether or not I should take care of FMF’s or something first before trying to jump into nuclear

[vapid gorge]

Not sure you need someone on your map for that, and if you go for a reduced plutonium rods, since you'll probably want to sink them, you don't need fused frames.

Up to yo ureally

[median heath]

I could be wrong on this, but from my perspective it's an Early Access title.
Having an update that pseudo-constitutes a complete wipe prior to the full 1.0 launch is something people should expect to be honest.
And even if you didn't expect it, it isn't something you can be upset about (logically) given the nature of this type of development.

[fading urchin]

Just wondering, why would I not use the plut rods for fuel?

[vapid gorge]

More waste 🙂

[median heath]

When you beta test games, you don't get to keep all your progress in a lot of them.
You just get your "I beta tested" item/flair and then you start the game fresh at launch with everyone else.

[fading urchin]

Ah i see, this is what I meant by perpetuating waste calcs haha

[vapid gorge]

I wouldn't be surprised either way - they just have to weigh whether the benefit of rebalancing a lot of recipes is worth a community content wipe.

[vapid gorge]

ahhhh that makes more sense - I was under the impression you thought clocking changed the amount of waste expected

[median heath]

If the balance is what the intended direction of the final product is, entirely worth it.

[fading urchin]

Ahh I see, i coulda been more clear sorry bout that

Okay so in reality, if I was just gonna sink the plut couldn’t I just sink the non fissile and call it a day??

[vapid gorge]

Oh sure! I just have no idea what the changes would make the shape out to be? I'd expect they'd be making the recipes in that direction anyway right? would tweaking them somewhat really change things up in a core way?

[median heath]

Only sinkable part of the chain is Rods.

[vapid gorge]

You could also use the Plutonium Rods as truck fuel

[median heath]

Have to keep in mind the implementation of SAM is going to change stuff as well.
So current recipes were probably designed and mathed out before SAM was finalized.
Meaning in the 1.0 world they just wouldn't fit with the design of everything, meaning they need to change.

The core value of "every alternate option is not better/worse, it is a trade-off" has to be maintained (imo)

[vapid gorge]

Maybe? Since the game isn't finished though and there isn't an 'end state' I don't think that'll impact the base production - since you'll almost certainly only use sam quite late

[median heath]

since you'll almost certainly only use sam quite late

I wouldn't bet on this.

I could easily see it coming into play during the prologue or tutorial.

And just expanding more options as you advance.

[vapid gorge]

Ok so in this concept is sam ore making new products or just used in alt recipes?

because if it's alt recipes then you'd have to keep a base set of non sam ore products

[median heath]

Their last words on it were "It makes existing production lines easier."

Which the only way I can translate that is "alt recipes".

[vapid gorge]

then I think it's less argument for making drastic changes to base

[median heath]

?

[fading urchin]

Maybe it will be extremely limited then, kind of forcing you to be careful where you substitute it

[vapid gorge]

So you'll have all hte base 'non sam' recipes right?
if SAM makes production lines easier then it's probably easier to just balance out what the changes SAM does?

[median heath]

1. Change is just change. Drastic or small it will still have rippling effects.
2. Some of the changes could be buffing recipes to allow them competition with SAM alts, we don't know.

3. 🤷‍♂️ I am fully in favor of rebalance patch forcing a wipe prior to 1.0, even though I highly doubt it will force one, just moreso "highly encourage" it.

[fading urchin]

What about drones?

[vapid gorge]

yeah look - like I said, I just wouldn't be surprised either way

[vapid gorge]

batteries only 🙂

[fading urchin]

Dang it!!

[vapid gorge]

even with trucks you'd probably have to sink most of the rods - they last like 5hrs per rod

[fading urchin]

Lmao, that sounds interesting not gonna lie. I’ve done much more with trains than trucks. Not sure if you watch ImKibitz but I like the idea of paving a whole biome and making a drivable “truck way”

[vapid gorge]

I have, I like making factories more blend with the environment xD

[fading urchin]

Hahaha, they blend when the factory is the environment!

[vapid gorge]

like here I've done my best to not demolish those trees #screenshots message

[fading urchin]

The archway is sweet, and loving the structure on the right, the tiered base fits well into the terrain

[signal ruin]

I got the production line set up and everything seems to be running smoothly thank you so much for your help!

[median heath]

👍

[hardy sail]

figured out why my rips where slow

its because my screws where getting barely any rods because all of the belts were running on mk1s instead of 2s

so now its fixed and I can be at peace

is 20 reinforced iron plates/min early game good?

or should I go for more

[median heath]

Your save your rules.
You are the one who determines what is good.

[hardy sail]

id like a little imput, idk if it will be enough to get me all the way through to steel production

at which point I can switch to mk3 belts

[median heath]

0.0001/min is "enough to get you all the way" it's just a matter of how long that will take.

[hardy sail]

i dont like that number

[median heath]

Which is the point.
Pick a number you like.

[hardy sail]

6000 isnt exactly possible with my resources

[median heath]

Learn to like things that are within the realm of reality.
That's both good for Satis and is a real life skill.

[hardy sail]

yes yes I know

20 is good enough for me atm

[median heath]

👍

[hardy sail]

i dont feel like i need more, ill be able to set up a p good steel production when im there so

[median heath]

You will most likely redo your RIP production for later projects when you acquire Adhered Plate anyway.

[hardy sail]

i was maybe gonna used stitched later

copper wire is so easy

[median heath]

Stitched carries you to Adhered.

[hardy sail]

ah

[vapid gorge]

or the galaxy brain move of Stitched with Iron wire

[median heath]

Coke Steel + Steel Coated + Adhered Plate =

[hardy sail]

that sounds good, is more efficent than ingots-rods-screws?

[vapid gorge]

not 100% sure, just simpler logistics as it doesn't use as much wire pm as screws

[hardy sail]

whats the recipe for iron wire?

is it ingots to wire?

[vapid gorge]

yup and it's nearly 2 wire to 1 ingot

I think it's 5 ingots 9 wire

[hardy sail]

mm

that would be good for plate production

could run that off of one 240 node

I thinkk.. I could be wrong

[vapid gorge]

https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=FNd5G2cspM16Bg58Hhlu

[true junco]

Pure copper + pure Caterium ➡️ Fused wire ➡️ stitched plate

[hardy sail]

why use those two when you could just copper

[vapid gorge]

More wire I guess? I just like using Iron Wire since Iron is a garbage material

[true junco]

Because i can already make like 40,000 wire with it... lol

[hardy sail]

wouldnt say garbage

just annoying since it breaks into so many small parts

[true junco]

Fuse wire and fused quick wire... soooo... many wires...

[vapid gorge]

It's everywhere though - so it's really easy to plop down and not have extended logistics - which is very valuable to me

[hardy sail]

I think its finally time to start making space elevator parts

should I have a rotor factory first

probably actually

which means finding more iron

(kill me)

[whole heron]

Iron is everywhere.

If you make rotors and stators in the same facility, you can also make motors.

[median heath]

I read this as @snow dove is everywhere 😂

[snow dove]

I am everywhere.

[hardy sail]

will I need more wire or cable through my playthrough

tryna decide what to prioritize

[wind spade]

that depends on tons of factors

unless you have the whole game planned out, then you can't answer this

make what you need now (a few per min to storage of each) and don't care about future

[hardy sail]

mk, thanks

[wind spade]

whenever you'll need more, make that many that you need and done 🙂

no reason to build in advance, unless you know what your end goal is

[hardy sail]

well rn i can make 100 wire/min 80 cable/min which means I have room for 55 copper sheets/min

which should work for me, so thats nice

how do I split this

if you can without under clocking prefereablt

[wind spade]

split what?

[hardy sail]

that

I need a 110 line

the 3.666 reccuring is the smelters

[wind spade]

1 at 66.6667%

[hardy sail]

and the 30 is the ingot out put (to the 110 line)

[wind spade]

3 at 100%

[hardy sail]

ok

i wanted to avoid unerclocking

but it is what it is

[wind spade]

you need 3.6666 smelters, that's impossible without under/overclocking

[hardy sail]

yeah ive accepted that now

[wind spade]

underclocking is a great tool that helps you a lot with ratios 🙂

[hardy sail]

hey if I wanted to pull the extra 10 from the smelter I was underclocking instead of not producing it could I do that w/o a smart splitter or something of the like

[wind spade]

you don't need a smart splitter 🤔

[hardy sail]

could you guide me through it

[wind spade]

110 >--S--S--S--S
       |  |  |  |
       X  X  X  X

S = splitter
X = smelter

[hardy sail]

im tryna do this

its where the ingots split

[wind spade]

you don't have to split them if you don't merge them

[hardy sail]

I wanna take 10 ingots from the sheet line to make put it into the wire line

[wind spade]

manifold the whole thing then

both wire and copper sheet

or just do the initial thing - split smelters into two groups, one making 110 and one 130

many options are viable

[hardy sail]

maybe I just overclock the 130 line instead

and keep the other line underclocked

that might counter act the power draw too

[rapid panther]

you can split it with a smart splitter

[hardy sail]

dont have it unlocked

[rapid panther]

yeah i figured, i unlocked it once to split 10 rods into a constructor

[wind spade]

why would you need a smart splitter?

normal splitter can do it

[rapid panther]

dont he want to split this?

[hardy sail]

im confusing myself

[rapid panther]

110 into 3.6666

Obv manifold would be easier

[wind spade]

how would smart splitters help with that?

[hardy sail]

ok can you just help me with the 130 line again sorry

[rapid panther]

you split and then set the overflow to the last one

[hardy sail]

how do I take that extra 10 and only the 10 off of the 110 line

[rapid panther]

i didnt exactly do the math but it worked for me

[wind spade]

you don't need overflow tho, you can just use normal splitter

[rapid panther]

Oh yeah true i just did the math

[vocal tundra]

You could literally just manifold instead of overcomplicating it

[rapid panther]

Its a 20 split

[wind spade]

either you make 130 with under/overclocking

or manifold the whole thing

[hardy sail]

oh

how did I do that

yeah, if im unerclocking one there will be copper ore left over

sorry guys lol

[rapid panther]

Yeah 110 is a bitchy number

i say just manifold

load balancing would take too much work and space

[wind spade]

240-> --S--S--S--S--S--S--S--S
        |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
        C  C  C  C  C  C  C  C

S = splitter
C = constructors (9 for wire, 6 for sheets)

[hardy sail]

ive already got it working

[frosty owl]

@hardy sail I'm assuming you resolved already, but did you consider splitting the output of one smelter (30/min) in 3 so you could merge for 110 (30+30+30+20) and send the rest on the other line?

[hardy sail]

I have resolved it

[frosty owl]

I thought so. But still asked ^^

[hardy sail]

I just made an extra smelter under clocked it to only produce 10\

so the extra iron ore that would make the extra 10 on the original underclocked smelter went to this new one

[frosty owl]

Ok. Can you answer my curiosity, please?

[hardy sail]

uh yep gimme a sec

I could have done that

I did consider that, but I did not have space

[frosty owl]

So, you "couldn't" xD

[hardy sail]

well

i couldve spaghettied the belts and it wouldve worked but

my body wont allow me to do that

[frosty owl]

If spaghetti is not acceptible, that's not an acceptable solution ^^

[hardy sail]

im sure you could de spaghetti that

ill see if I cant set that up

im curious now

[frosty owl]

I mean... By that logic, one could just remake the whole factory better 😩

We have to balance effort with actually doing stuff/progressing ahah

[hardy sail]

that works right

very space heavy thought

you could cram the splitters together but clipping

youd then have to re-merge two aswell

if you wanted a 20 line

[delicate chasm]

Consider stacking a splitter on top of another one and using a lift to save space in those instances.

You can turn around on a dime with a 3-stack and still split directions. :)

[junior escarp]

yo can someone help me on this
i am trying to make a motor factory and i don't know how to insert the wires and rods so that it wont look like spaghetti conveyor belt

[whole heron]

Use height.

Have one manifold higher or lower than the other and then use lifts or angle it into the machine.

[placid oyster]

do a sushi manifold :)

[wind spade]

@delicate chasm

doesn't matter that the gens are below the mainline, the mainline is all level so it can (and will) have backflow

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, that would be terrible and wouldn't work well. That's why I didn't design that. 🤷‍♂️

Did you see the original screenshots?

[wind spade]

it's from your screenshot

you have horizontal mainline and then splits go down under an angle

[lusty summit]

i'm kind of late to the conversation but why this design is a problem? i always implement manifold like with water splitters and i've never had a problem

is this problematic in only some specific cases?

[wind spade]

Avelon claims that their pipes can't have backflow

[delicate chasm]

Ah ah ah, nope, I claim that one specific pipe in my network cannot backflow to another specific pipe in my network.

I've outlined the very specific conditions for why that works in this instance and not others, also, over the course of the last 20 minutes in #satisfactory .

[wind spade]

then why do you argue with Fight or Flight, when he said you have backflow on your main pipe

The issue doesn't come from the segment connecting the gen to the manifold
It comes from the main line of the manifold flowing backwards to accommodate a glug

[lusty summit]

as i said, fluid dynamics/mechs is always causing an arugment in this game

it's like real life fluid mechanics when i disguss something with my fellow engineering students

😂

[delicate chasm]

Because I don't.

Any split pipe has at least some "backflow" if you quantify it as the pipe draining from both ends toward the junction.

If that's all you guys think I'm saying, no, that's stupid and ridiculous.

[lusty summit]

misunderstandings can happen

[delicate chasm]

And an utter and complete pedantic waste of time on top of that. Shouldn't have said anything to me in the first place if that's all the point they were trying to make.

[wind spade]

[18:08]Fight or Flight: Bruh
The issue doesn't come from the segment connecting the gen to the manifold
It comes from the main line of the manifold flowing backwards to accommodate a glug
[18:08]The Avelon: Main line, as in the horizontal section in the screenshot I sent?
[18:08]Fight or Flight: Yes
[18:08]The Avelon: It does not and can not flow backwards, no. You are incorrect.

This is what I am talking about

He said the issue comes from backflow on mainline (the horizontal pipe, as he even clarified after your question), and yet you claim that it cannot flow backwards on there (even though it definitely can and does)

[delicate chasm]

I'm mostly irate that they disagreed, got Kage in on mocking me, and ultimately were wrong about the very basic nature of pipes.

I'm carrying some of that resentment through to today.

[lusty summit]

to this day i'm not sure how water is working in this game, the only "logistic" that i never overcomplicate is fluids

[delicate chasm]

But there is no such issue, greeny, because 100% of the outputs from the main feeder line

takes a deep breath

ARE BELOW THE LEVEL OF THE MAIN LINE! Its fill percentage is totally irrelevant.

It can be at 1% and still pass 100% of its contents along to one of the generator pipes.

[wind spade]

I didn't follow the whole discussion. I just claimed that you can (and do) have backflow on mainiline, which you said you can't have (wrongly)

It does not and can not flow backwards, no. You are incorrect.
this statement is what I'm talking about the whole time

not any issue
not any side pipes

just backflow on mainline

[delicate chasm]

Okay. That being the case, it actually still can't backflow because the water is flowing to the central junction at every connection point at all times anyway.

The direction of flow doesn't change. If we're gonna be this Correct, then let's be Totally Correct.

[wind spade]

it most definitely can. Water hammer is a thing that happens both irl and in the game

[lusty summit]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/satisfactory_gamepedia_en/images/3/39/Pipeline_Manual.pdf i'm just leaving this out here again

i read this multiple times and i came to conclusion that fluid dynamics in this game is nothing similar on how irl fluids/water work

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[delicate chasm]

🤦‍♂️ This is ridiculous bandying of words. If FoF truly only meant " '>v<' flow at the junction points is backflow ave! :D" then I'm even less impressed than if he just misunderstood the principle I'm describing.

[delicate chasm]

And while I respect your attempt to defuse an argument, it's not well placed energy right now greeny.

[wind spade]

actually it's very close to real life 🤔

[lusty summit]

greeny is kind of right on what he says

this guide says something similar to it

assuming this guide is right of course

[delicate chasm]

The guide also says the whole system is working on pressure, to be fair, and it will be edited to no longer say that.

Because I pointed it out. >=/

[lusty summit]

well i never do what this guide says anwyways

and still have perfect manifolds

slapping a pump fixes most of the stuff

[delicate chasm]

I would explain this fully 600m3 throughput 20x250% fuel generators having stable uptime despite the headlift but I don't feel like getting eviscerated by people who can't make this system work in their own game. >=/

[wind spade]

600m3 is definitely possible tho, I never said it isn't

[delicate chasm]

I'm not replying to anything. I'm bitching because I'm frustrated.

[mystic moon]

@delicate chasm you were misunderstanding what I meant by backflow

[delicate chasm]

It's utterly moot. There is no backflow unless you go out of your way to identify backflow as the completely inert non-variable that it is in this layout. It doesn't matter at all if the main line has flow toward the center from both sides - the pipe is FED from both sides AND the center - it's already flowing in that direction.

That distinction is SO STUPID that I didn't even consider you could possibly be talking about that.

[lusty summit]

as i said for the 3rd time today, people are arguing most of the time with fluid dynamics because they are also confused on what the hell they are talking about

[delicate chasm]

It's overwritten by the fact that the flow direction is already exactly what the "backflow from glug" would be.

[lusty summit]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[pastel pasture]

45000MW of energy

[lusty summit]

good, now fix those floating stuff

and i will give you a cookie, my ocd kicks in

[pastel pasture]

i like floaty stuff

[lusty summit]

just kidding 😄

now i looking at this map, im building my big hmf factory right side of the map

i wonder if i'm going to have enough space for the oil stuff left on the map

🤔

[mystic moon]

No
You're just flat-out wrong
When water is pulled from the main pipe, that will be replaced by water from both directions, as greeny already explained. That is backflow. It causes a water hammer effect, which also starves downstream generators

You mitigated that by smoothing out the rate at which water is glugged, and that's why you found an improvement with your weird piping shenanigans

[lusty summit]

isnt this a problem if you create a loop?

[delicate chasm]

Then a horizontal 2-segment connection would work equally well, correct?

[lusty summit]

feeding even amount of water from both ends

[mystic moon]

Furthermore, it is also still possible for water to flow back out of the generator piping in to the main pipe in some scenarios

[mystic moon]

No

If the volume of the two segments was the same as the two you have here then it would he similar but still not the same

[delicate chasm]

Wow, doubling down eh? Okay.

   |  |  |  |  |  |  |
   -------------------
      |     |     |
      P     P     P```

The flow direction is central to each junction in all instances. There is only one possible flow direction on the way to each generator's junction.

The segment from each of those junctions is lower than the main feed line.

> Furthermore, it is also still possible for water to flow back out of the generator piping in to the main pipe in some scenarios
You are asserting that my design can backflow up into the main line? I'm not misunderstanding this?

[mystic moon]

It is possible? yes
Will it likely happen in your setup? No

[delicate chasm]

I want proof that it is possible.

[mystic moon]

K

I'll be back at home on monday

[lusty summit]

i've seen backflow issues in big height differences but i've never had problems such as you guys describe for a generator to stop working in a manifold style piping

could it happen, yes? but i've never seen it tbh

[delicate chasm]

Glug rate does not change. The coal generators take the water they take, and the pipes replace the water they replace. Adding more segments doesn't change that. Adding extra pathways for the water to take does.

The feed pipe always has water in it, and having water in it AT ALL means that the pipes connected to it that are lower in elevation will receive water.

That it is a buffer is not disputed. That it is to smooth the distribution out is not disputed. It is distributed cleanly because of this design - because of my "pipe shenanigans." And it is not flowing backwards from generator to main feed line, because the buffer segment (as I have repeatedly said) is a U-bend.

The horizontal pipe never receives a drop of water from any of the 45 degree angle junctions. Full stop.

I mean do you realize that the hammering effect is taken care of by the fact that it's

 r
U```

in shape?

[lusty summit]

this is what avelon is describing tehcnically

[delicate chasm]

Not at all.

[lusty summit]

if he is feeding machines in lower elevation than main line

how can fluid will be able to backflow?

in sense it's similar

[delicate chasm]

I mean yeah the principle of gravity is at play here, but not the water tower effect itself, is what I mean by not at all.

[lusty summit]

i meant about gravity and backflow

the logic of water tower is created due to that

to avoid using pumps, which pumps also act like valves

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, backflow respects gravity.

Hammering can violate it, but that's an instance of the game bending its own rules because the alternative would be to delete a unit of water.

But that is, again, part of the design - hammering is taken care of by my shenanigans.

[lusty summit]

i wonder why i never seen that, probably becuase i always feed my machine from down which requires using a pipe in main/semi main lines?

or i never paid attention to it happenning

fluids are confusing man

[delicate chasm]

@wind spade @mystic moon Okay, I've cooled off and I apologise for being so sharp.

We need a better way to communicate certain concepts. I think we all understand that when backflow is brought up in the context of an entire pipe system, then the colloquial understanding of that concept is "problematic backflow", and very much not a description of the consequence of a system working from equalizing volume instead of working from pressurization.

The conversation the other day between you and I, FoF, should illustrate that taking into consideration what the pipe is doing under the hood always involves backflow if a junction is present and neither segments coming from that split are capped.

If anything needs said to clarify so that other people don't get a misunderstanding, I would posit that it be not using the word 'backflow' to describe the under-the-hood mechanic. Instead I would suggest that, since it gets discussed FAR less than "problematic" or "symptomatic" backflow (design error), the under-the-hood mechanic be referred to as volumetric flow. The reason for not calling it backflow is because the direction of flow does not change in the case of a looped pipe, while the 'problematic backflow' does involve a change in direction.

tl;dr: I'm not reasserting any arguments in the above text. Just read it. It's all fresh. No tldr.

[wind spade]

while I do understand that there's backflow that is ok and backflow that's not ok, I'd still call any backflow a "backflow", because most people in this discord don't know that

and I'd rather specify "this backflow doesn't matter for this system", rather than claim "this backflow is impossible" (even though you mean that the backflow won't cause any issues)

[delicate chasm]

My actual meaning isn't that, though - that's why I'm seeking this clarity. My actual meaning is that the direction of flow is unchanging. It does not change at any point, so it can't be backflow...yet if we describe the volumetric flow of any junction, we have a pipe feeding from both sides that could potentially feed in only one direction.

The problem with this is that it's a universal description. All pipes can potentially flow omnidirectionally, and that's well established. Volumetric flow physically describes the mechanic, so much so that I'm @oblique hollow gonna bother this guy and ask him to read this and the post right above it. Sorry for ping, hope you don't mind.

I also understand the distinction that once flooded, a machine on one end will glug at a given game tick while the rest do not, and the entire pipe network that can flow into that segment will adjust based on their own volumes.

[wind spade]

imo the usual "definition" of backflow is "fluid flows in a direction in which it wouldn't flow if it was a solid on a belt in same setup"

[onyx perch]

Valves will reset the headlift, along with pumps (im scrolling through right now i dont know if someone has explained this up ahead)

[delicate chasm]

When it's happening in a matter of milliseconds AND its effects are completely countered by another related mechanic, I think it's fair to say that the backflow has been entirely eliminated in that system.

It just becomes a different discussion altogether when you're no longer discussing fluid moving OUT of a pipe segment and INTO another pipe segment that it should not be moving in to.

It just comes down to - water is leaving the pipe on both ends, and the volumetric flow rate at each end varies slightly. But it is in fact leaving at both ends, never receiving from that pipe segment [because hammering is engineered out].

Alternatively, I guess, what would be the suggestion for how to describe the mitigation of problems caused by game mechanics specifically in the context of backflow? "Designed correctly to mitigate the effects of backflow" seems as inaccurate as saying you eliminated it, because the full effects of the volumetric flow mechanic (backflow) are still present - it's how the entire system works. 🤷‍♂️

[placid oyster]

Guys, we all know the solution to this is packaging loops

Just run belts

[supple belfry]

As more of a meta-reflection, this particular topic (fluid mechanics in Satisfactory) seems weirdly irrational on this channel. Some weird combination of obtuse game mechanics and uniquely pedantic people makes it a minefield.

[whole heron]

I'd like an actual plumber to weigh in on fluid mechanics at some point. It'd be interesting.

[vocal tundra]

That would be interesting

[true junco]

Several folks who work in industries that are fundamentally dependent on pipes and fluids have weighed in.

Laypeople (those who've never worked in nor studied those fields) insist on argueing with those who do work in those professions.

[wind spade]

afaik most of them said that fluids ingame work pretty similar to irl fluids, with some minor changes here and there

[whole heron]

Siphoning isn't a thing in Satisfactory, right?

[true junco]

Its a very crude approximation imo. But i dont think this game would be fun for 99% players if it was extremely accurate.

Not sure how to incrementally be a little more accurate without immediately causing significant problems in game mechanics and CPU usage etc.

[snow dove]

not really no

[true junco]

On a tangential note... was anybody else kinda thrown off by the fact that the material "steel pipe" wasnt used for building pipes? When i first saw them in game I initially expected them to be used for something like mk2 pipes. But i guess that would have made too much sense. 😆

[deft lichen]

metalic foundation made out of concrete

[delicate chasm]

Apologies if I've come off as pedantic. My initial statement was challenged with a subversive argument that in my estimation was either misconstrual or semantic pedantry. I felt compelled to respond and now I'm compelled to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[supple belfry]

I mean, whatever realism might be in the game around fluids is undercut by an absence of air-in-pipes mechanics. That’s fundamental to plumbing.

[supple belfry]

Again, not really targeted at anyone in particular.

[delicate chasm]

Yeah... I didn't want to jump on the usage of the word "hammering" earlier when the opportunity arose... I'd be guilty of the thing I was taking issue with.

But it is the colloquially understood term for the effect that was being described, so I mean...

In any case I'd like to be able to easily differentiate between the math and the meta in future discussions.

[true junco]

I figured it was either metal clad, or concrete filled.

We fill interstitial spaces of welded steel skids with concrete all the time...

[delicate chasm]

Tensile, meet compression.

Shear: D=

[true junco]

No kidding. We are refurbishing a couple of second hand units that have to go off shore. We sometimes fill voids with concrete to add weight because it absorbes vibrations and prevents unsecured units from "walking" while running. But for offshore they had to bring the weight down... it took at least a week to break out just the 4 big voids... didnt help that there was rebar inside the concrete welded to the beams. Lol

We got a bigger jackhammer the next day... look what it did to steel beams! 😆

[deft lichen]

IRL foundation

[placid oyster]

damn, the encased industrial beam was so good they made it irl

[lusty summit]

Ah shit, here we go again

[delicate chasm]

squints Wait a minute...

[vapid gorge]

doesn't work right?

the recursive bit probably throws it out of whack? I can't be f'ed actually analysing it

[delicate chasm]

Yeah, I hate it.

[lusty summit]

This is another mk5 to mk4 meme

I wonder why some people deny using manifolds

[delicate chasm]

It isn't not right and I hate it.

[lusty summit]

You just split before the end line and merge the 2nd outputs of each splitter, you get whatever amount of ratio that machine need directly

Overcomplication is a big problem

[delicate chasm]

I'm not against systems designed with logical timing, matched belt speed, etc.
But if you're just making a manifold anyway, why do the 1:5 split, @u/whoeverthatpersonwas?

[lusty summit]

That's what i mean

[delicate chasm]

Yeah I'm with you.

[lusty summit]

Load balancers are nice in theory but kind of wacky in satisfactory due to how much more space you need

[delicate chasm]

I guess it's still math worth doing though since it lets you design aesthetic stuff with belts if you like the way complicated belt systems look. 🤷‍♂️
goes back to lego factory project

comes back Wait, we didn't actually do any of the math though.

does some of it Okay I see, nevermind then.

[teal oasis]

Load balancers are okay once you understand that you don't actually need to balance them. Machines and belts that get too much will overflow and back up just like they do with manifold setups.

[vapid gorge]

then that's not load balanced?

[wind spade]

Looks fine

[vapid gorge]

ah, thought that was the 'joke'

[wind spade]

Why is it not right?

[median heath]

That is a... way to do a 5 way split I guess.

I find the original method far simpler.

[wind spade]

manifolds aside, what's wrong with this one?

[median heath]

Oh I'm not talking manifold.

I'm talking the 6-way split and take 1 to merge all the back before the first split.

3 splitters, 1 merger.
Compared to that 4 splitters, 2 mergers mess.

[wind spade]

if you merge before first split, you can't use it for full belt

this one allows you to use it for full belt without issues

[median heath]

I very rarely push 780 on a belt.
Also the original method was designed when you never wanted a full mk5 due to issues.

🤷‍♂️

[wind spade]

full belt doesn't necessarily mean 780 belt

you know, people can build things before mk5 belts are unlocked 😛

[median heath]

🙄

[frosty owl]

To prove to people who like to go "just manifold, that's wrong" that they haven't even bothered to understand the system fully before passing judgment?

[hardy sail]

Hey can someone help me with something

im stuck with a rotor problem

[frosty owl]

Not if you don't clearly say what you need help with :P

[wind spade]

https://dontasktoask.com/

[hardy sail]

typing my question out I just

figured it out lol

sorrrrryyy

I confused myself

as I do usually

[frosty owl]

Wow, how dare you find fix your problem in your own... So rude...?

[hardy sail]

just apologising for making you guys have to sit here and watch me slowly type it out etc.

[wind spade]

what if I was standing up

[frosty owl]

I'm trying to make humor over it to make you understand it really isn't worth apologizing over Imo ahaha

[hardy sail]

I do it, its best to accept it then tell me not to cuz im gonna keep doing it

[frosty owl]

Whatever works in not ruffling feathers~

[hardy sail]

ok now I have a question, if i Only have 120 belts, but I need to over flow 500 resources a minute, how do I set that up

ive tried every combination of mergers and splitters my noggin can think of and I do not got it

[wind spade]

by not merging the resources to single belt

how much does one machine produce and how much does one machine at the other end need?

[hardy sail]

One machine I have set up for screws (three constructors totalling 120/min) sends screws to assemblers that need 100/min

tryna overflow that extra 20

[deft lichen]

there are multiple solutions, one of them is underclocking one of the constructors so that they end up making the 100 you want

another is an injected manifold

!wikisearch manifold

[wind spade]

underclock ftw

e.g. underclock assemblers to 80/min so that two constructors produce enough for one assembler

[brisk shore]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[deft lichen]

yeah it depends if it's easier for you to underclock the constructors or assemblers

you will end up with more of the underclocked machines

[hardy sail]

not underclocking assemblers

dont have space for injected manifolds

[wind spade]

why underclock constructors? they'd need overclocking rather than underclocking

40/min -> 100/min

[vapid gorge]

1 belt per machine is your only choice I guess then

[frosty owl]

Extra way, since all others are listed already and it adds an interesting angle of problem-solving: smart-split 60/min off (smart splitter pushing down a MK1 belt, overflowing the rest), split that in 3 and you have 20/min

[hardy sail]

cant smart split

not researched

[wind spade]

just over/underclock + direct input

simplest way

[hardy sail]

underclock what, constructors?

[wind spade]

whatever you want to get matching ratios

[frosty owl]

I suggested that mainly for the logic behind it

[hardy sail]

let me show you what im doing with images so you understand

cuz i think theres a little mis communication

[deft lichen]

40+40+40 to 40+40+20

[wind spade]

I know exactly what you're doing. You have machines making 40/min and want to hook them to machines needing 100/min

one way is clocking one or another in a way that you get 2:1 / 1:1 / 3:2 / ... ratio
another way is doing that in a 5:2 ratio (5 constructors -> 2 assemblers) without clocking
other ways were already mentioned

[hardy sail]

1 collumn makes 120

120*8 960

trying to solve the extra 40 atm, it should be there

[wind spade]

another case of "built factory before considering logistics"

[hardy sail]

logistics were considered, I just realised the considerations were wrong

extra 40 from that extra constructor bottom right

forgot I built that

[wind spade]

then do one of the options I've mentioned here

[hardy sail]

gimme a sec to read them

and see if they apply

[wind spade]

anything applies 😛

just some options would mean you'd have to rebuild a few things

[hardy sail]

which would be extremely upsetting

[deft lichen]

don't build too much before figuring out the logistics

[hardy sail]

i do all the logistics before I build the next section

had to remove belts from the assemblers due to the problem im facing

the issue is not the screws im making its getting the 1000 split into lines ONLY carrying 100

not 120, which feels impossible

[wind spade]

that's why you underclock

or do the 5:2 ratio

as I already mentioned

[hardy sail]

if I underclock I no longer have 1000

[wind spade]

you underclock and build more

[hardy sail]

meaning more constructors, which I dont have the ingots and rods for

cant supply more really

[wind spade]

you won't supply more

[hardy sail]

also space is a bitch rn

[wind spade]

you will supply same amount

underclock + build more = same processing speed but more machines

(and I see tons of space around your build)

[hardy sail]

not entirely, those 2 platforms to the right of the constructors are going to have to be for logistics either way, so taking them up would be frustrating. and the bringing the belts too far away might mean I have to resort to spaghetti

[wind spade]

there's space above, there's space around, ...

and still, one of the options I mentioned involved no underclocking

[hardy sail]

behind me and behind the those constructors are full

[hardy sail]

that was the 5:2 ratio you said right? which confused me because you didnt specify which one was 5: 2

like, is the 2 the constructors? or assemblers?

if you mean the assemblers as 2, I could see about that, but that means moving alot of stuff if im not wrong

[wind spade]

I mean if you just diss every option we give you because you're not willing to move your wrong setup, then we can't really help you

[hardy sail]

im willing to move it

[wind spade]

(also I specified exactly what I mean by the ratio)

another way is doing that in a 5:2 ratio (5 constructors -> 2 assemblers) without clocking

[hardy sail]

sorry, didnt see that, thats on me

give me a minute sorry, trying that ratio method

just a question about the 200 being made in the constructors, how do I split that evenly into 200 lines

[wind spade]

you don't

[hardy sail]

100 lines sorry*

cant carry 200

[wind spade]

C  C  C  C  C
|  |  |  |  |
+--M--S--M--+
   |     |
   A     A

[hardy sail]

ok, give me a moment and ill try put that in, sorry for dissing your solutions ive just been stuck on this for a while and its really getting to me

[rustic patio]

To me it sounds like overclocking and injection manifold would be easiest

[wind spade]

injection manifold is 🤢 separated manifolds ftw

[rustic patio]

No need to adjust clockspeeds besides one with IM

[frosty owl]

Urgh, I'm so regretting using so many manifolds close to my delicate sushis... Now I have too many fill-up times to consider, starting up the factory is such a pain if I don't pre-fill properly
End of rant

[wind spade]

no need to adjust clockspeeds at all with 5:2 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

Ah nvm

Misread something, I thought they were missing X and a constructor makes more than X

Yea you wouldn't need IMs in this case

[hardy sail]

I think it will work yeah, only other logistics ive gotta re-do is the rods to the assemblers now, but otherwise thank-you for the solution and sorry for being so frustrating

[frosty owl]

On a similar note what about something kindoflike: you don't "need", you "need for"

[wind spade]

https://xyproblem.info/ 🙂

[hardy sail]

just read that lol

[raven summit]

i always wondered if there was a name for this

[fierce ruin]

AAH this wil be a logistic nightmare, but this will be my first "mega factory" 😄

wish me luck

[vapid gorge]

if you pick a spot that has these resources nearby should be easy 🙂

[fierce ruin]

And i dont want to suffer with the fluids so i will package oil and send it as it is

what do you think?

[vapid gorge]

better spots but shouldn't be awful

[fierce ruin]

:C

can u suggest a better spot?

[vapid gorge]

east swamp has everything you need in a small area

[fierce ruin]

hmm, yeah

well it is what it is

[delicate chasm]

Didn't say. I said: "It isn't not right and I hate it."

[west cedar]

Looking at things it looks like the way to maximize the bauxite into aluminum the best route is to use the petroleum coke recipe? Does this track?

[placid oyster]

best route is instant scrap or electrode + sloppy alumina

they are both equally efficient

use your black rock of choice

[west cedar]

okay cool! Thanks! I had a plan for my heavy oil so i will use coal.

[placid oyster]

go right ahead

👍

[west cedar]

I also like the idea of not needing to worry about the Alumina Solution lol. My current setup consistently breaks down and I cant figure out why

[oblique hollow]

likely water loop?

Instant scrap water loop is a nice simplified 1:1

[west cedar]

I setup 1 overclocked refinery to take all the water from the scrap making refineries and it still stalls

[placid oyster]

yeah but you still need to start it dont you?

[oblique hollow]

yeah, kickstart it with some water

after that you dont need any extra water for that specific loop

[west cedar]

I had to do that with my uranium waste process plant

[placid oyster]

honestly Id just build a VIP junction for it

[west cedar]

I shipped over some water containers until the system had the water it needed and wahlah

[placid oyster]

seems to work pretty great

[oblique hollow]

VIP is for normal aluminum

if even

[placid oyster]

it could also work for this youd just have it turned off all the time

🧠

[oblique hollow]

you dont want to connect it all into one big loop of water anyway

you cant even

so you just need to loop some parts of it and for others you can use fresh water

again, water recycling, many options for that

[rustic patio]

looking forward to the pipe fun in my aluminium plant..

not sure which recipe to use yet

[west cedar]

yeah looking at the recipe i do like that the water is outputs goes to the beginning for input

[rustic patio]

it sucks that the numbers are so wonky 😩

need 48.9 refineries and 2934 water and 3912 coke

[west cedar]

yeah its off for sure. I was so happy when i found the exact number for my uranium process plant... I did pretty good with this one 35.1 and 117 foundries

Exactly 9 full belts of Aluminum Ingots

[oblique hollow]

hey @rustic patio , funny question regarding trains and the optimum transport times per stack size:

50 per Stack
-88.62s RtD
-1083.3 Items/min

100 per Stack
-150.16s RtD
-1278.66 Items/min

200 per Stack
-273.23s RtD
-1405.4 Items/min

500 per Stack
-642.46s RtD
-1494.25 Items/min

For the above, is dividing the actual round trip time of the train by the optimum round trip time a good approximation for throughput?

[rustic patio]

there is two limits, the reload limit and the time limit. whichever one is lower is your true throughput.

reload limit:
((roundtrip_time - reload_time) * beltspeed * 2.)/roundtrip_time

time limit: (stack_size * train_inventory_size) / roundtrip_time

here is a visualization of that:

blue is time limit, red is reload limit. Vertical is throughput (items per minute) and horizontal is round trip time time (seconds)

@oblique hollow

[oblique hollow]

i know that, the question stands

how good of an approximation is it to divide the actual RtD of a train by the "optimum" RtD per given stack size and then multiply by the corresponding maximum throughput

actually... lemme open up a graphing tooly myself then

[rustic patio]

bad probably

[median heath]

That was my assumption given the curve of the graph, but I figured it was better to ask the person who made said graph.

[oblique hollow]

i cant even replicate the graph

[median heath]

BTW @rustic patio what was the limit on Fluid Trains again?

[rustic patio]

desmos.com/calculator/srhbandddu

[median heath]

Strange Link Danger

[placid oyster]

if he can hack me with a desmos link I think he deserves to use me in a botnet

[oblique hollow]

funny numbahs

[rustic patio]

the straight line is x/best_time*best_throughput

[oblique hollow]

time limit doesnt match at all with the formula you wrote above

[median heath]

💛

[rustic patio]

look like it matches

what numbers did u use?

[oblique hollow]

500 for SS

roundtrip is x

and reload time is 27.08

[rustic patio]

hm

[oblique hollow]

train inventory is 32 cuz single freight car

[rustic patio]

yea time limit is way too small

[oblique hollow]

time limit peak value is 500 * 32

did you shift the roundtrip time?

by some factor

[rustic patio]

ahh im tired give me a sec

found the issue

got minutes and seconds mixed up

you either have to multiply the end result by 60 or divide the round trip time by 60

because the vertical axis is in throughput per minute, not seconds

[oblique hollow]

ah right

[rustic patio]

that looks correct to me

yep

ah, fluid trains

i forgor, one sec

[median heath]

Everything has to be in minutes, that's why the base throughput equations have that 0.41533333 bit.

[median heath]

If you can just type the actual number ❤️ I don't need the graph.

[rustic patio]

just set the stack size to 50

50 * 32 = 1600, which is the capacity of a fluid train

[median heath]

Wanting to add it to my copy/paste on maximum limits.

[oblique hollow]

wait....

[rustic patio]

and belt speed to 600

[oblique hollow]

for SS 50 the approximation is exact on the right side of the curve

[rustic patio]

wdym?

[oblique hollow]

oh wait i got it mixed up

why does it match tho

[rustic patio]

max should be 896.3

[oblique hollow]

for stack size 50?

[rustic patio]

with fluids, belt speed is 600 so its lower

[oblique hollow]

wdym belt speed is 600

[rustic patio]

well pipes carry 600/m