math-and-meta

[vapid gorge]

Maybe it can? But I don’t see the point

More effective rushing coal than running around for hdds early on for a recipe that’ll be completely pointless in a few hours

[frosty owl]

If you ever need to fire up a coal plant or make just a bit of steel and have biomass or wood...

I'm not saying it's useful, I'm saying it can be used in some... Very... Specific... Instances...

[vapid gorge]

Hand mine coal?

This feels like the ‘very specific situation’ where you could use a tennis racket to kill someone.
You’d never carry one around for the purpose, it’s not good for the purpose, and you can almost certainly spend a brief amount of time finding a better tool for the job.

That sort of niche use can be applied to so much that it effectively makes it pointless

[oblique notch]

Yeah. I'd rather just use 3 or 5 portable miners to pull up a dozen stacks of coal in about 5-10 mins then use biocoal. Heh

[vague pawn]

Is there any need for a smart plating or versatile framework factory? Are they used in anything except space elevator phase?

[oblique notch]

The next space elevator parts

But no, that's it

[vague pawn]

So its not really worth a factory

Just a few assemblers and hand feeding

[oblique notch]

I for example just stick a couple of ISCs behind a assembler and drop parts into them every time I return to the hub. Let it build them while I'm doing other things

[vague pawn]

Ye thats what i was thinking about doing

[oblique notch]

Yeah, for now.

I really want them to change it (or add a mode) where space elevator tiers are unlocked with a constant ppm instead of a flat amount

Like unlock t3 you need to continually provide 60 smart plates per minute for 10 mins or something

But that's just because I think it be a good in game reason to make a smart plate factory rather than just hand feeding a few machines everytime you return to base

[vague pawn]

Yeah would be a good idea

[surreal dune]

power loss at 9min

[spring geode]

1 nuclear pasta needs 32 copper refineries 😔

[fierce cypress]

33.646201 refineries

[raw radish]

might be faster/more efficient to just go on a killing spree for animal protein and make the alien dna capsules and buy all the nuclear pasta from the awesome shop

[fierce cypress]

i mean, you don't really need that many/min

like 4/min only takes ~4 hours

and thats relatively doable if you wanted

or you just do less and do other stuff

not to mention you can't buy pasta

only copper powder and PCCs

and that would take 560 tickets if you were to buy all the necessary parts

which would cost 17237056 points

[raw radish]

you could make it cheaper by just making the copper powder on its own, since its just miner -> smelter -> constructor, leaving the PCC for 160 coupons

[fierce cypress]

but that would take a lot of time

and still lots of refs

[raw radish]

refs? you dont mean refineries do you?

[fierce cypress]

yes

and if we were to use dna capsules you'd need 52734 of them if my math is right

i haven't actually used them yet so im going off the wiki

but im pretty sure thats right

without PCCs

still 32 refs per PCC (/min)

[raw radish]

you could swap out the refineries with just smelter to constructors, so you wouldnt need to worry about arraying all the water

[fierce cypress]

meaning you'd need 40 smelters per PCC/min and 2.5x more copper

[raw radish]

and acquiring all the motors, computers, etc for the refineries.

[fierce cypress]

computers?

[raw radish]

oh nvm i got refineries confused with a different machine

[wind spade]

casual 480k copper

[fierce cypress]

its better than

[rustic patio]

@turbid drift , want to talk here? Main chat is moving too fast

[fierce cypress]

@turbid drift the reason why train stackers are bad is because it minimises the time between load/unload cycles. while this sounds like a good thing it really isn't because during each load/unload cycle the station locks and inputs/outputs stop moving items, meaning that items inside the platform when a cycle begins are isolated. if you minimise the time between cycles the items in the platform will never be able to leave (in the case of unloading) or will never be able to enter (in the case of loading) this results in trains either never being able to load or unload since the output is full or the input is empty, in order to have an efficient system you need long waits between cycles so the platform has enough time to empty before new items come in or load up again before a train comes in.

[turbid drift]

happy to

[rustic patio]

Imagine the train arrives at the station every 28 seconds (I know it's not physically possible, just an example)

For 27 seconds, the train station will not accept items. Meaning it will only accept items for 1 of the 28 seconds.

This effectively turns 780 belts into 28 belts

[turbid drift]

ok that makes sense... now i get it

[rustic patio]

This effect gets less and less extreme as the time between train arrivals grows larger

You want to find a good midpoint between long train arrivals, but not too long, because if the trains is over capacity you are also missing out on throughput

[turbid drift]

so what I really need to do is work out how long it takes a full train to get to the station... then make a trip long enough to take that long to reach it at the end of the 'queue'... thereby each unload will be complete

my expectation was that the unload pause would start once the train was able to unload... so now i owe an apology and my thanks

[rustic patio]

No need to apologize, it's difficult to wrap your head around that at first for many people, including me. You were willing to listen and didn't throw insults around, so you did nothing wrong

[fierce cypress]

always nice when someone accepts constructive criticism

[turbid drift]

this is a system i hope they fix in the next patch... it would be trivial to code, so i cant understand why it would be like this now

[opaque oak]

You can set the trains to only load/unload full carts, but that will just naturally space the trains out on the route.

[rustic patio]

Maybe it's intentional, I don't think CSS ever said anything about it

[opaque oak]

So no stacker necessary, unless you have just way too many trains on the route.

It will sit at the station without blocking the belts until the platforms can do full swap.

[turbid drift]

that was my original plan... so this is possible?

[opaque oak]

Yes, just don't need a stacker. Just right number of trains.

One will wait at the loading station, one at unloading, more will be on the route if long enough.
Often just single train is enough and will wait for part of the time on both stations.

[turbid drift]

plan is to have...
1 output station to take all bauxite and process.
3 input stations to collect all bauxite. 6 trains to go between, 2 per input.
1 engine, 9 car trains...
In theory, there would be 1 train filling at each input until full, 1 at output unloading, and 2 waiting to unload

testing required... i'll get 2 or 3 trains going and see how they go

I expect i need more beet

beer too

[rustic patio]

how much bauxite do you want to collect in total?

[turbid drift]

i'll be linking 9780 units per minute, but i only need about 6k per minute for now

[rustic patio]

how much per input freight platform?

[rustic patio]

how long will ur trains be?

[turbid drift]

1 engine, 1 car... should be about 12 minutes give or take

[rustic patio]

only one freight car per train?

[turbid drift]

1 engine 9 car

[rustic patio]

ooh, i missed that

[turbid drift]

i was hoping the imbalance of the output per station would be balanced by the train queue.. so if that wont work it will likely involve a 4th station and a balancing act

[vapid gorge]

12 minutes?? You doing multiple stops?

[rustic patio]

@vapid gorge

step by step, i want to clear the misunderstanding up

[vapid gorge]

No no I get what you're coming at

[rustic patio]

with the formula you sent, what would be the throughput at a round trip time of 27.08?

[vapid gorge]

The thing is the situation you're describing is a system that doesn't work at all and sure the formula doesn't cover it. Because it's an impossible situation. It assumes you have enough time for hte platform buffer to do it's thing

There's probably a min time where the formula breaks apart sure

you're totally right

[rustic patio]

no, you're missing the point

please, just listen to me

[vapid gorge]

sure

[rustic patio]

im not arguing, im explaining

with a round trip time of 27.08, according to that formula, the throughput would be 1534

when in reality, it would be zero

there is another formula

B is throughput
X is round trip time
R is the reload time (27.08 in the game currently. didnt hard code it just for fun)
780 is belt speed

lets fill it in for the same scenario

(27.08-27.08) * 780/27.08 * 2

this results in 0

you have two formulas, one shows the maximum throughput of the train itself, unlimited by belt speed

and one shows the maximum throughput of the station, limited by belt speed and reload pauses

you need to calculate both and take whichever is lower

[opaque oak]

Ah, sorry, forgot to switch...

[rustic patio]

There's probably a min time where the formula breaks apart sure

do you see the red line?

[vapid gorge]

is the bottom in seconds?

[rustic patio]

thats all the places where the formulla from the wiki breaks apart

[opaque oak]

Ok, there is that your formula, I'll combine it with the other to get formula to calculate RTT needed.

[rustic patio]

the bototm is seconds, the side is throughput

[opaque oak]

And yes, the wiuki one doesn't consider the pause.

[rustic patio]

at 643 seconds does the wiki formula get into action

so any round trip time below ten minutes with a stack size of 500 is not limited by the t rains themeselves, but by the belts

[vapid gorge]

Have belts not always been the final limiter?

[rustic patio]

in a round trip time above 643 the limiter is the train

the formula you posted only accounts for train limitation

lets look at a lower stacksize, at lower stacksizes train limitation becomes more relevant

computers have a stacksize of 50

now the graph looks like this

[vapid gorge]

is this assuming that you are going to move full cars?

[rustic patio]

the red line is not full cars, the blue line is full cars

after 80 seconds RTT the cars will be full anhd the liymiting factory will be the train

anything before 80 seconds is limited by belt speed

[vapid gorge]

So what happens to the formula if you do the reasonable thing of telling the train to just move whatever is there and not wait for a full load?

[rustic patio]

it doesnt assume wether or not the cars are full, it tells you wether or not they are full

[rustic patio]

this is what im doing with this formula

at the blue line the train will be full even if i tell it not to wait

because the amount of items that will have entered the stationwill be larger than the trarins inventory

[rustic patio]

blue line = full train, limited by train capacity
red line = not full train, limited by belt speed

[vapid gorge]

sure but wouldn't you be aiming for the train to arrive and leave before the platform is full?

[rustic patio]

hm

maybe!

wait a second

before you ask anything elsle, please

lets say you wnat to transport 1200 iron ore per minute

in one train car

stack size of 500

[vapid gorge]

I'll pretend they stack to that yes

[rustic patio]

you just input 1200 into the graphing calculator and it shows you the cross points

you see, any round trip time between 117.347 and 800 will rescult in you carrying all you iron

[opaque oak]

Laura:
RTT = (belt-speed*pause-time+16*cars*stacksize)/(belt-speed)
(for two belts).

[rustic patio]

now, what i would do is the following
i add subtract 117 from 800 and divide it by 2

[vapid gorge]

wait why are you doing this?

[rustic patio]

the result is 341.5

this point is exactly in the middle between the max and min point!

oops, forgot to add 117 again

458

this opint is exactly between the maximum amount of time needed and the minimum amount of time needed

it gives me 342 seconds of buffer up and down

so if i aim for 458, i will have the most stable connection

the maximum throughput would be at 643, where the lines meet, but im not aiming for that

[vapid gorge]

I'm agreeing with you on all this (though I have a question about another thing) , but not sure where you're going?

[vapid gorge]

which lines?

[rustic patio]

the blue and the red line, the tip

[vapid gorge]

that looks more like 1500?

[rustic patio]

1500 throughput, not seconds

vertical is throughput, horizontal is seconds

[vapid gorge]

ah sorry misread

[rustic patio]

the red point is maximum throughput, the green point is "safest" throughput

[vapid gorge]

ok so you're not aiming for that -

[rustic patio]

no, why would i aim for maximum throughput when i only have 1200iron to transport?

[opaque oak]

@Laura:
RTT = (belt-speed * belts * pause-time + cars * stacks * stacksize) / (belt-speed * belts)
Does that work right?

[vapid gorge]

it'd be madness yes

[rustic patio]

i dont think so

[opaque oak]

Used your equation for the throughput and the wiki one for RTT at specific throughput.

And solved for RTT.

[rustic patio]

but not sure where you're going?
the point is that doing this by hand for one station isnt so bad, but adding in multiple staions and multiple routes would make the math a lot more complicated

even doing the simple thing for many stations would be tedious

and thus making a program that does the complicated stuff for an entire networrk would be very useful and allow people to do things they otherwise could not

thats my entire point, it isnt super easy at megaworld scales

[opaque oak]

Original:
(RTT - pause-time) * (belt-speed / RTT) * belts = (Stacksize * Stack-amount * freight-cars) / RTT

[vapid gorge]

So just real quick - in the first picture you mentioned that before 10 minutes the wiki formula breaks down in that example. But then continued on with further examples where the red line wasn't a break down, just wasn't full platforms?

[opaque oak]

Is that first part right? It's your formula.

[rustic patio]

well, in this case i used the word "breakdown" to refer to wrongness

in any place where you see the red line, the blue line would be incorrect

[opaque oak]

Second one is just the wiki formula with throughput being replaced with your formula.

And should be right.

[rustic patio]

you didnt subtract the belt speed anywhere

[vapid gorge]

"in any place where you see the red line, the blue line would be incorrect" clarify?

[opaque oak]

It comes from the RTT-pause-time part

when solved for RTT

[rustic patio]

sure

the blue line and the red line are both limiters

whichever one is lower dictates your actual throughput

agreed?

[vapid gorge]

suuuuuure.... but you only get red or blue line at any point in time right?

[rustic patio]

no, i just made it so it only shows the lower line

[vapid gorge]

ah

[rustic patio]

if you take the upper line you are wrong,because the lower line is the "real" line

so you need both formulas and always take the lower one

[rustic patio]

which is also missing here

you need to select for the lower line

[vapid gorge]

I honestly haven't fiddled with the wiki train formulas that much but it seems odd that the mega math nerds wouldn't mention the failure point of the formulas on the wiki

[opaque oak]

Throughput = (RTT - pause-time) * (belt-speed / RTT) * belts =
Correct?
B = Throughput
RTT = x
pause-time = R
Belt-speed = 780
Belts = 2

And then the B /Throughput stands for the other side:
Throughput = (Stacksize * Stack-amount * freight-cars) / RTT

[rustic patio]

the * freight cars isnt neecessary, but thats correct yes

[opaque oak]

When you combine, you get:
(RTT - pause-time) * (belt-speed / RTT) * belts = (Stacksize * Stack-amount * freight-cars) / RTT
And then solve for RTT:
RTT = (belt-speed * belts * pause-time + cars * stacks * stacksize) / (belt-speed * belts)

[rustic patio]

i have no idea if thats right

[opaque oak]

Just added everything as variables, so they can be simplified away if wanted. Adding them back in is harder.

[rustic patio]

im not good at math 😩

try it out and see if it works

[opaque oak]

Just the two sides are the question, did I enter them right.

[rustic patio]

why the equal sign?

[opaque oak]

Calculus things.

I replaced one throughput term with calculation to get throughput.

[rustic patio]

the top one is right, id just remove the freight cars

because you might not azlways unload and load all freight cars

so its better to do calculation per car and not per train

[opaque oak]

Yes, and you can just remove it directly when it is just "1"

[rustic patio]

i gtg eat breakfast, try ur formual out and show me the results, looks promising

[opaque oak]

Just included it as backup, because readding it needs to do the calculation again.

Basically just basic equation solving and simplification.
Put one equation into another and solved it via symbolic math to get the same equation combination with specific wanted term you want to solve on one side.
And then you can just plop the actual values into the new equation to calculate the RTT with those values.

Pain to do manually, symbolic calculator did it automatically for me but need to be careful entering the thing.

Pain to do manually for more complex equations.

[vapid gorge]

Hadn't thought about it but the longer the RTT of this the closer it gets to 1 .... which seems weird

[opaque oak]

Because you are starved for material most of the time when time goes long.

[vapid gorge]

I guess that's the part shown as the red curve in Lauras graphs?

starved for material?

[opaque oak]

The parts after the red mark.

Where you would need more trains on the route to keep up with deliveries.

[vapid estuary]

Shouldn’t the asymptote be 0

[vapid gorge]

which is where comes in

[vapid estuary]

Ah no I’m wrong. Coffee…

[rustic patio]

The blue line approaches zero very slowly

[opaque oak]

Yes, but that equation I put for Laura combines that Wiki equation to the more accurate throughput calculation from Laura that includes the platform belt pause time.
And then solved that for calculating the optimal Round Trip time.

Which is actually the absolute maximum RTT.

[vapid gorge]

Sounds like a good addition for hte wiki tbh. That section could use some clarification and tidying up

[opaque oak]

Where you can still keep up with the throughput requirement.

Yeah, once it is checked.
I can then easily get the other forms.

[vapid gorge]

The explanations for them and everything needs a revamp tbh. It's hard to parse

[opaque oak]

Yes, when it is in single line format.

Easier if done with proper formatting tools.

Like the ones on the Wiki are.

[vapid gorge]

As for a program that does it automatically it sounds like it'd be a bit of a pain, you'd have to set it up to deal with multiple cars that may or may not unload at 1 or more stops using Laura's description of situations they want it to handle

Not.. hard, just time consuming

[opaque oak]

Even this form was just basically for point to point with single type of material evenly spread in the car(s).

Doing full loads unless you play with values of those specific terms relating to how much a freight car can contain and how many freight cars there is.

RTT = (belt-speed * belts * pause-time + cars * stacks * stacksize) / (belt-speed * belts)
So the cars * stacks * stacksize is just separated to calculate how much stuff is carried is in single train.
Which then is used for the calculation on how fast those are moved in/out of the station with the belts in use (belt-speed and belts, expects one or two identical belts, could switch to use two separate belt-speed instead by just doing (belt1+belt2) instead).
And the start calculates how much belt transfer capacity is lost to the belt stop pause.
Can be just amount of items in any form and calculated however.

So you need enough time for the pause + time to fill 32 stacks into the station, or other direction.

And the train needs to be there exactly when everything from previous load has been transferred for "optimal" interval.
In reality you want it there little too early.

Whops, need to do units right...

That has wrong. Because the belt speeds are in /min, so rest need to be in that too.

[vapid gorge]

oh yeah wouldn't want to try to time it precisely

[opaque oak]

But I'll do version with conversion factors to get that in sec...

[vapid gorge]

To do what Laura wanted I'd image the easiest thing would be an input where you could select what is going in each car and essentially does each car throughput independently and could apply rtt time with multi stops included?

why 677/1500?

[opaque oak]

the 27.08s converted into minutes.

[vapid gorge]

ah right

[opaque oak]

With exact value of that, 0.451333....

[vapid gorge]

yup yup

can probably have a version that assumes mk5 belt speeds as well on the wiki just because that's proooobably what most people will be using

[rustic patio]

How do you calculate where the lines cross?

[vapid gorge]

as in junctions?

[rustic patio]

As in, the graph

[vapid gorge]

ah

wasn't Baldur setting it up specifically to include both equations?

[opaque oak]

That is the absolute max time the RTT can be.
With that exact RTT the train would start next cycle just as the platform is filled/emptied.

Where the RTT and the transfer time of the items to/from the station match.

[rustic patio]

Ooh I think I get it

[opaque oak]

If there is just single car.

And yes, drop the cars, because that isn't good in this version, because each platform is separate.

[rustic patio]

Wow, why didn't I think of that

[opaque oak]

For this specific calculation.

[rustic patio]

This gives the same value as looking at where the lines meet, right?

The red and the blue line

[opaque oak]

Should

[rustic patio]

Great idea

Have you tried it out yet?

[opaque oak]

Just analyzed and seems to be right.
Above the line the left side adds the belt transfer capacity lost to the pause, right side is how many items there are to transfer.
That 60s/min just converts the belt speed from /min to /s.
And then the number of virtual items (including those lost to the pause) gets divided by transfer speed.

And you get time in seconds it takes to transfer the number of items and the time that is lost to the pause together in seconds, as the max RTT

[opaque oak]

And just checked that the unit conversion between /min belt speed and /s pause duration and end result works right.

642,4646154 s RTT for 500 stacksize with two 780 belts, or 10,70774359 min RTT.

150,1569231s RTT for 100 stacks.

So it basically calculates at what exact RTT you get the max throughput theoretically possible.

For specified stack size, with specified belt capacity.

Might not be what you wanted.
If you want something else, you need to explain more so I understand better what is wanted.
But just example what can be done when you start to combine equations and then "solve" them to get simplified calculation to get some specific result out of the inputs.
And then could go into having several equations and trying to solve with multiple unknowns.

[last saddle]

aside from either of the northern forest node clusters, are there any exceptional places to start/base
i've heard of "starting" in titan forest before, but i don't really like the idea of getting coal from maze canyon, as well as the proximity to red fields and swamp
dune desert looks interesting for obvious reasons, but i wouldn't be looking forward to the foliage constraints

[vapid gorge]

Not as a start of the map base. The east swamp though is a spot where you can build every item in the game with resources within 400m

[queen leaf]

This has just been sent to me by a friend.
Still only on mk2 belts. They need it to be 6x30ppm

[rustic patio]

what are they trying to do?

[queen leaf]

take 180 in from various sources and split it into 30x6

I have already simplified it for them I just thought it was a VERY overengineered diagram

[rustic patio]

they want to do load balancing?

[opaque oak]

Why? Just do Injected Manifold.

[rustic patio]

ahh i hate math

not even chatgpt can help me

@opaque oak you're smart, can you help me out?

[opaque oak]

Might be.

[mystic moon]

I'll take a shot too

[vapid estuary]

peered back a few screens, what's the Q

[rustic patio]

(x-27.08) * (780/x) * 2 = 1100
how do i solve for x?

[mystic moon]

Mk2 only?

[opaque oak]

Again, would need to rework the equation to be "x = something", and cannot be arsed to do it manually again, so moment. I'll get the calculator

Because the x is inside more complex stuff.

[vapid estuary]

expand the left side

[marsh radish]

Does Satisfactory's calculator know basic algebra?

[mystic moon]

Balance to 2 belts of 90, split each to 3 belts of 30

[opaque oak]

Yes, I could do it manually.
But when I have symbolic calculator, I cannot be arsed right now.

[rustic patio]

I tried throwing it at chatgpt but it only gave hilariously wrong answers lol

[mystic moon]

Yes, it can do order of operations

[vapid estuary]

to: 1560 - 42244.8/x = 1100

[mystic moon]

You would do this by merging 2 belts of 40 twice, splitting the 20 and merging that to get 2 belts of 90 @queen leaf

[marsh radish]

Y'all ever used Wolfram Alpha? Is that still a thing? Online math tool

[vapid estuary]

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=\(40)x-27.08\(41)+*+\(40)Divide[780%2Cx]\(41)+*+2+%3D+1100&key=fornn

[marsh radish]

^^ yeah, that

[opaque oak]

So x=52806/575

[vapid estuary]

chatgpt is natural language processing. it is not reasoning

[rustic patio]

It was trained on code too, it's often amazing at math

[mystic moon]

I already gave solution or was I wrong?

[vapid estuary]

"what is the age, gender, and skin colour of the next octogenarian black female president" is something it can't figure it out

[opaque oak]

Didn't notice.

[opaque oak]

Not really, just stringing snippets

[mystic moon]

Lol i wasn't sure, just woke up 😛

[opaque oak]

(x-pause) * (belt/x) * 2 = 1100
To
x = (2 * belt * pause) / (2 * belt - 1100)

[rustic patio]

Thx!

[opaque oak]

Too long time since I had to do these manually to go for it today.

[opaque oak]

And you can check if the changed equation is right by first calculating the x with the new equation form, and then calculating the old equation with that value and seeing if it still comes to 1100.

I really need to read the manual of this new one.
My old symbolic calculator died and I bough newer model as used, but haven't learned full use of it yet.
So result checking is harder than it should have been.

[opaque oak]

And again just realized that the original equation was "wrong", because the belt speed was in /min and the pause was in s.

Need for both to be in either minutes or seconds, and the last seems to be throughput, which is again in /minute.
So need to use that "677/1500" as the pause term.

So the specific case is 8801/5750, or about 1.5306, which doesn't seem right, but would need to know what you are trying to calculate.

x = (belt * pause_in_s) / (30 * (2 * belt - throughput?)
For the modified version to take the belt speed and throughput in items/min and the pause time in seconds.

[vapid estuary]

just feed it to WA

[opaque oak]

Yes, it does the same.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i2d=true&i=\(40)x-Divide[27.08%2C60]\(41)+*+\(40)Divide[780%2Cx]\(41)+*+2+%3D+1100
For the corrected(?) version. Cannot know what is correct as I don't know what the X is supposed to be.

WA doesn't seem to like if there is more than one variable. Would need to look at the help on how to specify which variable to solve for...

[vapid estuary]

well for two variables you need two equations

[opaque oak]

Not when you are doing symbolic math to just transform the equation.

[opaque oak]

Didn't like the multicharacter variables.

I was using.

And tripped and didn't recognize the "solve" keyword at all.

[vapid estuary]

because it doesn't know if "belt" is maybe b*e*l*t

[opaque oak]

Worse than that.

[vapid estuary]

math uses single characters

or subscripts

[opaque oak]

That would just mess the result. It didn't process at all.
And with some stuff you want to use longer words, and my calculator handles that fine.

[rustic patio]

bad choice imo. dont ever try to maintain a mathematicians code lol

[opaque oak]

The logic with TI symbolic calculators is that if there are multiple characters that aren't a calculator keyword, then they are expected to be single variable name. And you need to add the * manually between if you want to multiply two shorter variables.

[vapid estuary]

No mathie would look at "5xy" and assume it's a variable called xy

software is different

but i do have a lot of variables called i, j, x,y

[opaque oak]

But 5belt/seconds would be pretty clear that there are just two variables.

[vapid estuary]

to a person, not to software

[opaque oak]

Yes, and I think that the route WA is taking is the worse of those two.
Because it leads to unmaintainable and hard to understand equations.

Yes, you have to select one or the other for the software.

Implicit multiplication signs between all characters, or between none.

[vapid estuary]

lol, because e is e

GFY human, said WA\

[opaque oak]

Yes, I know now that that is how WA is coded, to have the implicit signs at least in some cases.
But if it had actually calculated the result when I had those, there wouldn't have been problem and I would have just fixed it.
Instead it didn't do anything.

And just choked on the parsing.

[vapid estuary]

understand that the notation you're using is made up by TI

[opaque oak]

Assuming "solve" is a general topic | Use as a word instead

[opaque oak]

I used the same notation that worked with single-character variables.
With multi-character I got that error.

[vapid estuary]

ah

[opaque oak]

Same with several other forms that work on WA with single-character variables but not with the multi.

Because it detected that the variable names were words, and got confused.

So it was "too" smart, but not smart enough.

[vapid estuary]

tone it down, it can tell you the answer to "molarity of 1 ml of 5 M HCl in 5 L of water" so just use single letter names

[opaque oak]

Yes, I understand now what was going on. Just the error was bad.

And one of the permissible forms is exactly the same as used by the TI calculators: "solve(z=x*y,x)" to solve for x
But still tripped on the words as variables.

With the same error message.

[tame birch]

Hi, is 8 water pumpers enough for 16 coal generators?

[opaque oak]

3 water extractors needed per 8 coal generators.
Each generator uses 45 water and water extractor produces 120.

[tame birch]

hmm

so how much water extractors i need to fuel 16 coal generators?

[tropic hawk]

yes

[opaque oak]

If 8 need 3, then how many do 16 need?
Or if one uses 45 water, how much water does 16 generators need?
And then how many extractors are needed for that amount of water?

[tropic hawk]

my good sir, he just said 3 for 8. do you know how to do math?

[tame birch]

guys chill xD

didnt realized that

[unborn halo]

I'm so confused, is it better to refine oil to residue and polymer first and then refine that to fuel and rubber or to go straight for either fuel or rubber then use the by-product to create the other

[tropic hawk]

define better

[unborn halo]

which gives me more bang for my oil

[wind spade]

then it's best to use alternate HOR to make diluted (packaged) fuel into recycled loop (and residual rubber to get rid of polymer)

[unborn halo]

Ok I don't think I have all the recipes for that so I'll just go oil -> HOR +polymer into HOR -> fuel and polymer-> rubber

thanks

[snow dove]

yeah that’s pretty decent

[oblique notch]

You can look up materials on the wiki for comparisons of their alts

[steep wigeon]

yo hi just a small question is there a way to balance several belts with different flowrates?

[wind spade]

yes, but usually not needed

easier is to put each belt into machines which need that exact amount

[oblique notch]

Or a set of machines

[wind spade]

well that's what I mean lol

[steep wigeon]

yeah thats my exact problem thats not possible having lots of materials shipped by train and so i have to somehow balance for further shipping

[oblique notch]

No? Trains are just longer belts.

[wind spade]

how is that a problem?

you know how much is there in each platform

[steep wigeon]

idk just havin a real smoll brain moment

[rustic patio]

Would it be easier in German?

[oblique notch]

merge belts together, making sure that they don't exceede your Highest belt speed. Add an overflow smart splitter if you have just a tiny bit left over to another belt.

Run each combined belt into its own freight platform

Run one belt of the same speed out of a receiving freight platforms, on a 1:1 ratio with the shipping platforms

Add a train. If the machines at your output are stalling after 3 or 4 round trips (to give it some ramps up time), add a second train.

[wind spade]

or even easier:

• put each belt into it's own platform
• take each belt separately from it's own platform
• you have same set of belts+amounts on the other side

[oblique notch]

Also an option.

Lot of people get tripped up because "how much does a train move" is not a set value like a belt. So people tend to start overcomplicating the structure of trains. Trying to build these balancers and redundancies because they see big batches all at once arriving.

It's no different than a mk5 belt running into a mk1 belt.

Even tho the mk5 (ie the train) can do vastly more than the mk1. It's only going to run at 60/min because that's how fast the mk1 can go. Even tho it's starting and stopping and bunched up, it's still running at 60/min.

Trains are the same. They won't exceed your input, and even tho it looks like your getting far faster output (ie the belts are saturated) over time of entire round trips, it still evens out to the exact same as the input

[steep wigeon]

i think i got it

thx guys

[hazy dune]

hey, first time manifolding so want to know if this will work.

smelters making copper ingot at 30/min per machine (120 a min total) which goes to 6 constructors taking 20/min each (so also 120 a min total) just want to make sure ive done it all right and that this will work!

[fierce ruin]

40 batteries/ min should be enough for a nice fleet of drones rigth?

like 8-10

[fierce ruin]

yes, but it will take a while to start working 100% efficiency

[hazy dune]

I am aware

But it will work?

[fierce ruin]

of course

[hazy dune]

Ok

[fierce ruin]

if you hand feed extra copper at the start, it should reach 100% a lot faster

[oblique notch]

Not that long. And over the life of thre machine, assuming constant power and you don't deconstruct it... it's statically nil

This games only limiting factor is Time. An you have infinite time If you wish.

[wind spade]

as long as you don't go over belt limit, it will always eventually work, no matter how you connect belts

[hazy dune]

Can you send me a link to the belt design?

[fierce ruin]

.

[hazy dune]

Found your website, no worries

[oblique notch]

Drones take a min of 4 batteries per trip, +1 for each km over the first.

So if all your drones are less than a km and you make less than 10 trips a mim between them all, yes

[fierce ruin]

mmm okey

also, do do have to feed them batteries in both of their ports?

[oblique notch]

Nope

[fierce ruin]

okkkkie

thanks

[opaque oak]

There is a bug that if the batteries are provided at the home port, the drone takes too many.
It takes the right amount if they are provided at the remote port.

[hazy dune]

ok im really stuck here

120 divided into machines that take 20 should be 6 machines right

if they all take 20 a min then 120 should split into 6 machines

[wind spade]

yeah

yeah

[hazy dune]

ok

so this is whats confusing me

is it broken because of a new game updates

or is it wrong entirely

[wind spade]

no? it even says that all your machines will be efficient

[hazy dune]

OH

i read the wrong thing, i read "full in"

my mistake

[wind spade]

full = they have full input belt and storage

[hazy dune]

i get that now

[opaque oak]

Without overinput or manual filling, the last machines input buffers will never fill completely.
Just enough to run continously.

I just go for the full buffers by preventing the output from working right until input side is full and output buffers are too.

[rustic patio]

60/((60-(desired_throughput/(beltspeed * 2) * 60))/27.08)
i figurqed out the math! @opaque oak

[opaque oak]

Question was already before: Math for what.

[rustic patio]

the lower bound for a desired throughput

i think you gave me the answer already but i wanted to do it myself too cuz it feels bad using stuff i dont understand

[opaque oak]

Lot of 60:s in there that are probably from you trying to compensate for the throughput and beltspeed in /min and the 27.08 in seconds.
Would probably work better with the last one in minutes too ( 27.08/60 )

And the other ones removed as needed.

Or are they something else?

[rustic patio]

only the last 60 is for conversion, the rest are for other stuff

theyd be replaced with 1 if i switched to minutes

[opaque oak]

Check. Makes it hard to know what is going on when everything isn't as variables anymore.

[rustic patio]

check what?

[opaque oak]

As in I understand.

[rustic patio]

oooh okay

[opaque oak]

Or just confirming the receipt of previous statement.

[glad stone]

Question for you guys! If I am setting up a fuel generator plant and my math gets me I need 26.6666 fuel generators with the amount of fuel I am making. Do I make 27 generators and just have the last generator produce randomly or do I just make 26 and let the line back up? Would the line backing up shut down the system?

[mystic moon]

Don't channel spam 😠

[digital stream]

The line being full of fuel won't be an issue, although it would stop the refineries from producing fuel until it wasn't as full

[queen leaf]

27 and one underclocked

[digital stream]

If you're producing straight from cude oil though you will have to worry about the byproduct backing up, so just ensure any excess of that is funneled into the sink

[oblique hollow]

you can clock generators like any other machine

[bronze silo]

why won't this connect?

[cinder silo]

Ahh the pipe is extending just outside the bp designer according to the error.

[mystic moon]

It happens with wall holes on the edge of the designer, impossible to connect to

[oblique notch]

you also dont have any copper sheets in your inventory

[bronze silo]

yeah x2

I had to bring it in

I just needed the pipe connecter as they cannot connect in sequence anyways

would be cool if they could though!

[strong granite]

Is there any reason I cannot make a recycled plastic -> recycled rubber loop and just prime it with a little of either to get it started?

[wispy tiger]

You absolutely can

Just needs a fuel input to keep running

[strong granite]

Oooooh boi!

That massively cuts down on buildings I think…. that’s pretty strong

[wispy tiger]

It's certainly a lot easier than building six rows of recyclers lmao

[vapid gorge]

Why not use the Resin as the initial feed stock though? Might as well get some use from it right?

[tropic hawk]

other than it will not automatically restart if anything goes wrong, not at all

although you can use the Poly Resin run-off from the fuel production to make rubber/plastic that primes the system for you

[bronze silo]

how the fudge is this pumpiong all the way up?

[snow dove]

magik

[bronze silo]

lol

[strong granite]

That’s the plan!

[tropic hawk]

depends on what the rest of the system looks like

[bronze silo]

9 refineries making copper sheets

[surreal dune]

is there anything that shows production order? iirc there used to be one long ago, around U5-ish.

[tropic hawk]

wdym?

[surreal dune]

flow chart? maybe

[vapid gorge]

liek this ?https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/553550313533997057/1069783729586831380/image.png

[surreal dune]

if i didn't have to drag all those around to better organize them 😂

[vapid gorge]

That's why you break it down into smaller chunks after you have your master plan

[surreal dune]

I am

[vapid gorge]

I don't understand the question then

[surreal dune]

I take everything from that & it's various tabs of data and make a spreadsheet out of it

[vapid gorge]

That sounds like a flow chart that shows production order?

[surreal dune]

this is what i was looking for.

[vapid gorge]

Sure but... that's the same thing with less information?

I don't think taking that master plan of yours and putting it in whatever that was would make it look any better

[surreal dune]

didn't want it for the information, wanted it for the data structure. mostly aluminum.

[vapid gorge]

You know you can move the boxes to get that effect right?

[surreal dune]

yes but that takes forever when i'm not even going to be using it after i get the data from it anyways

because it will all go into a sheet similar to this

[vapid gorge]

about 10 seconds

[bronze silo]

soooooooooo many screws needed! 😱

[vapid gorge]

HMF don't use screws, don't know what you're on about

[bronze silo]

I am making computers and have no alts

[vapid gorge]

and if you do need screws this is a great recipe to have. You can have a contructor underneath and directly feed the manufacturer

Get alts 😛 go screwless.

[bronze silo]

I think thats a FANTASTIC idea, lol

[strong granite]

I wish I could but mine is so heavily integrated, the calculator doesn’t integrate recipes correctly when you break them into smaller systems.

So, I have to work from the master plan, breaking things into smaller sections visually, and tracing arrows like Charlie from it’s always sunny.
And then math things out from the bigger numbers as they actually apply in the world.

But now since I have my head generally wrapped around the thing, I can visualize the smaller parts. It’s just annoying having to do all the math anyways to fractionalize the thing.
But it’s got to be done either to set up the necessary inputs to get a calculator to show you the fractional system, or to get the numbers yourself.

[vapid gorge]

what do you mean the 'recipes are intergrated' ?

[strong granite]

Because of how the calculator determines recipe efficiency even if I give it the very specific list of recipes that are being used, in many cases it comes up with some other solution than what is used in the larger system.

[vapid gorge]

really? because what I did with this was only allow a single recipe type so forced it to a single path https://www.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=7nQIY0hBCqHrRvlvxT3E

[vapid gorge]

then I broke it down into hubs (red circle) and now I'm breaking the hubs down into smaller chunks for the build cycle

[strong granite]

How do you force it?

[vapid gorge]

by only having 1 recipe for the item checked

[surreal dune]

Give the planner only 1 recipe to pick from

[vapid gorge]

After I break down the master plan, in the sub plans I might change out a recipe here or there to make it fit the location better

For example - The QW for my Uranium Rods? I use both Fused QW and Base QW

[surreal dune]

i made a small comparison section in a separate tab to compare resource and building changes based on recipe swaps.
can copy/paste directly from the planner.
helps for resource or building bias goals or in scenarios such as Cobalts above. at least for me.

[vapid gorge]

ah yeah. I mostly eyeball that part and make sure the world restricting resources don't change much.

[surreal dune]

I used to but i often found myself getting fixated on 1 resource like Bauxite and overlooking the rest. This helps keep me focused on checking them all

[strong granite]

How have you broken down the parts?

[surreal dune]

Never thought to add a resource by region though. I have a spreadsheet that has the coords of all resource nodes with listed biomes. might have to modify it a bit now lol

[vapid gorge]

do you want my spread sheet for it?

[surreal dune]

If you're willing I'd love it

[vapid gorge]

Bit of trial and Error. For example in the master plan I took out Heavy Modular Frames as that was a pretty straight forward plan I thought I could do in 1 area - and then moving those HMF would be easy with a couple drones

[vapid gorge]

There's a short explanation of the formula in it and how I use it as well as an image to show the 'zones'

[surreal dune]

Thanks!

Ah, I see why you separated them in the planner. The sheet bridges the gap for the accumulated data

[vapid gorge]

That way I could plan hubs based on local availability of resources

and for me it was incredibly unlikely that 1 zone would host more than 1 hub

but you totally can with the sheet if you want, just have more +consumption and factory names

[strong granite]

I need to get some more tips another day about how you’ve gone about planning this thing

[vapid gorge]

A few people expressed interest in it a while back so I created a more generic version and cleaned it up.
For example the original doc doesn't have bauxite or uranium because I knew what I was doing with it, didn't need to be logged xD

[vapid gorge]

yeah feel free to dm me whenever

[vapid gorge]

It's by no means perfect - but the formula in the cells is segmented off in lots of 300 600 and 780 being multiplied by the number of nodes in the area. So it's fairly easy to change the map zones and shift resource nodes to a dif cell. You could even make more zones by inserting rows and copy pasting a section in

[prisma kraken]

on the subject of production planning tools, a new one that isn't very full-featured that i'm kinda liking is sp.runesun.com:

it kinda lets you drill down from the goal into the recipes you want for the goal

still a pretty rough tool, but i'm finding a lot of use in it

[vapid gorge]

I think you get mw use and buildings in tools? I think? I don't use that bit much

[prisma kraken]

i know satisfactory-calculator gives that info, but its sorta not all in one place

i.e. you need to bounce btw tabs in the ui

[surreal dune]

Indeed, the cells aren't locked (by the functions used I mean). Could tie a lot of my other sheets into this one. Or vice versa

[vapid gorge]

I'm glad 😄

[vapid gorge]

Essentially I took 2 weeks and localised a massive world spanning project and this is one of the tools that came from it xD

[tame birch]

hello, why oil isn't flowing into refinery?

pipes under floor is fulled with oil

[fierce cypress]

no oil in ref?

[tame birch]

this pipes is fulled

[fierce cypress]

show the ref UI

[tame birch]

sorry for another lang

[fierce cypress]

rebuild the connection

and maybe the refinery too

[vapid gorge]

are you using a floor hole?

[tame birch]

yes

[rustic patio]

Floor holes sometimes don't connect right. When using floor holes always check the connection again. If it doesn't flow, rebuild the connection

[vapid gorge]

dont use the floor hole, just clip the pipe through

apparently they sometimes bug out?

[rustic patio]

Or just rebuild the connection

Is prettier imo

[vapid gorge]

It seems to happen to a lot of people but in my thousands of hours of play time never have I come across it.

[vapid gorge]

You can put down fake floor holes that aren't actually connected. It's what I do to wall and pipes

[tame birch]

rebuilded, working

thank you guys so much

[rustic patio]

Yes but getting the angle just right will be tricky in this situation

[vapid gorge]

It doesn't really look like the placement in this pic is terribly important >.> xD

[rustic patio]

:p

[fierce cypress]

just go horizontal to vertical straight up if you want it to line up

[opaque oak]

And I don't know about any cases where the floor hole has stopped working. Only of cases where it never worked.

So yes, they can bug out when you build the piping. But once it works, it works.

[rustic patio]

same, thats why i just use the floor hole and do it again if it doesnt work. maybe im just weird but i prefer knowing i dont have a thousand pipes clipping through walls

[opaque oak]

And yes, less connection on the pipe can give some small performance benefit.

But I don't see that important enough to do the extra work to do clipped pipes.

[primal flicker]

I've been planning to start up my first (very modest) fuel power plant.

Looking at the wiki, I find this nugget of numerical inconsistency.

(I followed the text link and the math on the other page seems to output 66.6667%)

Recipes and numbers will be different in my case, but why isn't the last gen set to 66.6667%?? Someone make it make sense!

[wind spade]

pre U7 clock speed worked differently (not linearly)

wiki is just not updated here I guess

[primal flicker]

OK that's what I hoped was the explanation 😅👍

Now I just need to automate HMF and Computers... 😬

[deft lichen]

please link me the page and I'll update it

[primal flicker]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorial:Setting_up_Fuel_Power

Which HAS been copy/pasted onto the end of:

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Fuel_Generator

Both pages contain the same outdated number.

[deft lichen]

ty, fixing right now

[primal flicker]

I appreciate your service to the community 🥹

[deft lichen]

done (I also made the fuel generator page automatically update when the tutorial page changes)

please let me know if you stumble upon any errors or inaccuracies

[glacial sierra]

i haven't slept much and can't think straight, does this make sense? i want someone else to look over my idea so i don't mess up

[opaque oak]

Two separate banks of 16 generators with 6 water extractors and 3 pipes, should work.

Water injection positions seem to be ok.

If the incoming pipes are long, there might be some initial problems that will need to be worked out.

[vapid estuary]

as long as we're posting alternate planners, I fiddled with factoriolab.github.io/?s=sfy&v=6 and... I sorta like it

[glacial sierra]

allright thanks

[bronze silo]

do I need valves here to ensure all the HOR goes up the pipe on the left from all the machines on the right?

[vapid estuary]

a pump prevents backflow once it has power

[bronze silo]

cool, thanks

[median heath]

Valves have very few optimal use-cases.

[tropic hawk]

number one rule of Valves: if you think you need them, you probably don't

[cinder silo]

Valves have very few optimal use-cases. ~ fixed it for you 😛

[median heath]

They look pretty 😦

[strong granite]

Yeah and they have gauges 😍

[median heath]

Somewhat misleading gauges, tbf 🙂

[paper holly]

anybody know some good alternatives to use on a heavy modular frame factory

[vast jungle]

Just remember, without valve no steam! 😉

[median heath]

Heavy Encased Frame
Encased Pipe
Any of the Steel Ingot alts.

[paper holly]

thx

[tropic hawk]

Solid Steel Ingot, Encased Industrial Pipe, Heavy Encased Frame are my go-tos

[open patrol]

Adding wet concrete and steel rod.
Optional but nice to have.

[median heath]

Steel Rod + Base Mod Frame is the main combo I use.

[tropic hawk]

im more of a fan of the normal iron rod recipe paired with pure iron recipe for that (and iron wire, stitched iron plate, cast screw and normal MF)

[past cedar]

Doesn't need power

Pretty sure it prevents without power to

[vapid estuary]

the wiki agrees with you, i'z wrong

[past cedar]

That's interesting

Even with backpressure?

[tropic hawk]

true, but it resets headlift, so it is advisable to power your pumps

[past cedar]

Yeah unless it's just flat

[tropic hawk]

which it normally isn't

[median heath]

@brazen oxide another use of it is putting Screws into the manifold line so you don't have to worry about belt capacity.

^ Copper Rotor.
So all the Cast Screws are OC'd to make the belting simpler.

[brazen oxide]

Nice, that's a clean solution. We all know how much everyone here loves screws

[median heath]

I do hate how this is the exact same color but it looks completely different...

[brazen oxide]

Where are we going today, Ms. Frizzle?

[median heath]

Also do you want to see the cleanest line I have ever made?

[brazen oxide]

Let er rip

[median heath]

[brazen oxide]

It's like they're on rollers and not even conveyors

[median heath]

This is the overhead of that.

[rustic patio]

@median heath
this is the factory that i want nuclear to build
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=749YjU14lGmVWZqvlNeL

[median heath]

Using both Ct Comp and Ct CB.... pain.

[rustic patio]

i have too much caterium

like, the computers are just to get rid of my excess caterium wire

[median heath]

I have multiple answers to that but I have been told to just stick with "you do you" because I tend to come off as telling people how to play...

[rustic patio]

if i didnt want to hear others opinions i wouldnt be here

what would you do with the caterium?

[median heath]

Not make excess to begin with?

[rustic patio]

the smallest node nearby is 600, i only need 400. how can i avoid the excess caterium in this situation?

[median heath]

The smallest node can reach 600.
But you need 400. So clock it to 400.

[rustic patio]

so you're saying i should throw 200 caterium per minute away?

i prefer my method if using the free caterium for computers

[median heath]

What are you doing with the Computers?

Actually, better question:

[rustic patio]

nothing yet, ill load them on a train and just have them for now. im sure ill want to do supercomputers at some point, so itll come in handy then

[median heath]

What are your target amounts for Uranium Rods, Turbo Motors, and Supercomputers?

[rustic patio]

uranium rods 50.4
turbo motors N/A
super computers N/A

[median heath]

So you're not planning to finish the game?

[rustic patio]

i corrected my message

its N/A because i dont have any specific goals for super computers and turbo motors

[median heath]

That would be the issue.

[rustic patio]

why? cant i set my goals in this game through other means?

[median heath]

You can, but it creates the excess problem you have.
Because you're solving forwards.

[rustic patio]

who said i dont have a goal?

[median heath]

Pick the end amount and solve backwards. Everything cleans up and you don't have issues.

The only plausible "solve forwards" goal is "use every resource" -- and your PC will crash before you get anywhere close to that.

[rustic patio]

that is actually kinda my goal lol

i want to make as many points as possible for me

[tropic hawk]

underclock the extractor

[rustic patio]

there would still be excesss

[median heath]

Oh... then you get into automating Project Parts... on purpose...

So I cannot help you.

[tropic hawk]

not if you underclock it enough

[rustic patio]

its just that the excess is in the ground, and not on the belts

there is caterium in the ground that im not using, i consider that excess

i dont get why ya'll think that producing stuff is bad

[tropic hawk]

alright, so fully utilize it, and put a smart splitter at the end of the belt(s) and send overflow to a sink. excess until you need it

[median heath]

We didn't say it was bad.

[rustic patio]

ill fully utilize it by making computers

[tropic hawk]

because fully utilizing every node is not currently possible

[median heath]

Producing stuff is fine.
For me the line is producing stuff without purpose.

[rustic patio]

the purpose is super computers and personal use

[median heath]

You don't have a target for Supers yet though.

[tropic hawk]

same with me.

[rustic patio]

this is my first playthrough, i dont know exactly what ill do yet

expectsing everyone to know exactly what they want to do on the first playthrough is a lot to expect, i just want to play this world and enjoy it

[median heath]

So leave the "excess" in the ground until needed, then you know you have it available for new targets.
Instead of forcing yourself to use it just because.

[rustic patio]

im not forcing myself to use it

i need computers, i have quickwire

so i make computers

[tropic hawk]

then why are you asking others how to optimize your processes if you want to just play through it and enjoy it?

[median heath]

Computers being set to "Maximize" is a force.

[wind spade]

then don't automate things "because I'll need it later"

automate what you need now and expand if you need more later

[rustic patio]

i didnt

[rustic patio]

id never finish the game because im such a horrible procrastinator

[wind spade]

that doesn't seem to be relevant to my message tho 🤷‍♂️

[rustic patio]

it kinda is. you're telling me to not do stuff, and im telling u why not doing that wouldnt work well for me

[tropic hawk]

if anything it reinforces it

[wind spade]

no I didn't say that.

I said "don't do stuff that you don't need yet"

[median heath]

Why my initial response on record was "you do you".

[rustic patio]

i need computers right now though

to build stuff like trains

and ill need them to start nuclear big because ill need super computers for that

[wind spade]

so automate the amount you'd need (if it's for personal usage, probably some 15-30/min would be more than enough)

[rustic patio]

or i do 35 ( only 5 more than ur recommendation) and i use up the entire node

[wind spade]

you'll definitely need more later (e.g. for supercomputers), but build that when you're building supercomputers (you'll know how much you need by then)

[wind spade]

I just thrown random numbers at you, it's your game.

point is that you don't make more than you need "just because you'll need it in future" because you almost never know how much you'll need in the future

[rustic patio]

okay then if it makes yall happy, i want to make at least 100 ads per minute

[vapid estuary]

Old adage from computing: yagni

[rustic patio]

i will need more than 500 computers for that, so lets consider the computers im making right now as a part of that

all good now?

[median heath]

And there's the part about automating Project Parts.
At which point I exit because that's a goal I can't give an objective opinion on.

[wind spade]

sure, but even then I'd build the stuff for that when I actually start building the setup

[rustic patio]

there wont be "the setup"

i want to make it as modular as possible

[wind spade]

not sure what do you mean by that, but it's still a setup 🤔

[rustic patio]

my entire world will be the setup

so technically iem already doing the setup right now

[wind spade]

I assume there will still be factories that produce other things, which won't be part of the setup

[rustic patio]

and like, wheres the problem with making 35 computers? what do i lose through this?

[median heath]

Nothing.

[wind spade]

I didn't say there's a problem

[rustic patio]

if the choice is between having 35 computers and not having them, i choose having them

especially when i know ill need them

and especiall when i have all the resources already on site

[median heath]

My initial "oof" was about using Ct Comp with Ct CB.
Which led to "I have excess Ct"
Which led down the rabbit hole.

[wind spade]

I said there's a problem if you make computers in advance because you may need them later.

if you make 35/min computers into storage, that's completely fine

[rustic patio]

they'll go into storage for now, and later will be added to any factories that may need them

i want a giant train network anyway

[median heath]

Computer lines will always have you swimming in some type of excess resource.

You either use Qtz and have buttloads of Ct left over, or you use Ct and have buttloads of Qtz left over.

Optimal combinations (imo) are:

Ct Comp + Sil CB
Crystal Comp + Ct CB

[wind spade]

if they get added to factories later, where will you get computers for storage afterwards?

[deft lichen]

what if you use neither

[rustic patio]

i wont add them all to the other factories

[median heath]

Base Comp + Ele CB 😏

[wind spade]

and that's exactly my point

[rustic patio]

what if you have tons of caterium on site and 0 quartz on site?

[wind spade]

if you produce 35 for storage, keep producing 35 for storage and make separate computers for later uses

[rustic patio]

but i dont need 35 for storage 😩 thats way too much

[wind spade]

then... don't make that much

[rustic patio]

no

i just have a different playstyle

[median heath]

Personally? I would pick a different site 😂

But if you're choosing that specific location then either, as I said, "you do you" or maybe consider shipping in the Qtz to increase production potential?

[rustic patio]

in the end itll be the same anyway

[wind spade]

if you are dead set on your playstyle and things, why are you even asking or talking about it here?

[rustic patio]

i didnt

[median heath]

She definitely didn't.

[rustic patio]

sevrahn asked and then everyone joined to tell me how my playstyle is bad

i dont have anything against sevrahn telling me about his playstyle btw!

i love getting inspiration from other people

what im not a big fan of is when everyone keeps insisting i change my playstyle

anyway ill go work on my rail network

[median heath]

@rustic patio for the record I am not saying (and it was never my intention to imply) that your style was bad or incorrect.
I tried to clarify that my responses were purely my opinion and how I personally do things. Not that you are in any way wrong.

[rustic patio]

yea its fine, no worries m8

im sure you have a lot more experience and i think ill play similarly in the future

i can totally see how producing stuff just for the sake of it isnt very productive if you know what to do, but im still super new and just want to explore the game and its possibilities

and leaving future me a little present will surely make future me happy

and if future me is happy then ill be happy

[median heath]

The only objective fault that could possibly be said is the "solving forwards" thing, but as you said this is your first run so you are very much in the "you don't know what you don't know" part.

Once you've beaten the game it is highly unlikely you will do it again, and instead switch to solving backwards like nearly everyone does.

[wind spade]

I didn't say you have to change either. I just recommended to do so, because when you reach the next step, you'll most likely need more computers than you have, so you'll have to touch the setup anyway. I'd rather have separate production for the new computers than to mix some old one with part of new one

[median heath]

But you do have to beat the game first to get the entire wide-angle perspective on all production lines before the solving backwards takes over.

Setups like nuclear definitely suck far less when you aren't solving them forwards.

That's why I had asked about Uranium, Turbos, and Supers -- because every other item in the game falls into those 3 lines.
So once you know those you can solve how much you need for them and then just add the amount of each additional item you want for storage.

But if you get into intentionally automating Project Parts... I have to recuse myself.
🏃 💨

[rustic patio]

@median heath how is making a bunch of turbos superior to making a bunch of project parts?

[median heath]

Confused.
Did I imply one is superior to the other?

[rustic patio]

well, u seem to be okay with someone making turbo motors, but if someone makes projct parts u have to rescue urself

why is that?

[tame birch]

how i can make some mechanism to get 50% of plastic to awesome sink and 50% to container?

[rustic patio]

a splitter

[median heath]

Turbos are used to make buildings.

Once you finish the Elevator, Project Parts' sole use is points.

[rustic patio]

splits 50/50

[rustic patio]

ah, makes sense i suppose. but like, after a certain amount of ppm both are equally ridiculous

[deft lichen]

you can either use an overflow splitter (everything to storage until storage is full, then to sink), or as laura said, just a normal splitter to split in half

[median heath]

Exactly.
So to me, Project Parts are finite in use. Once the Elevator is done I don't need them.
So I never fully automate them.

Just ISC's hooked up to a single machine with the exact amount needed.

[tame birch]

how can I make this overflow splitter?

[rustic patio]

what "big thing" would u recommend i go for as my first goal? (first goal cuz i dont want to ever leave this world, she is beautiful and i love her and i will be with her until the end of times)

[deft lichen]

MAM caterium - smart splitter, needs just tier 2 parts

[tame birch]

oh i have this

[median heath]

Turbos, Supers, and Ur Rods are the big 3.

[tame birch]

and how should i configure that?

[deft lichen]

set the storage port to either the item in question or "any", and the sink port to "overflow"

[median heath]

Ur Rods max at 50.4
Turbos and Supers I usually do 45/min of each.

Though if you max Ur Rods you can't automate NukeNobs 😦

[rustic patio]

i think ill do a smart splitter with some belt reduction so that it steals uranium from my rods whenever i take nuke nobs out of an isc

but only like, a little, cuz i wont use nuke nobs much anyway

it probably wont be bad if it loses a few percent of uranium every now and then

oh nvm, nuke nobelisks take uranium cells

thken ill just steal those directly

[median heath]

1 NukeNob/min = 0.6 Uranium Fuel Rods/min.

So if you had max Ur Rods of 50.4/min, and wanted to start making NukeNobs, that's how many you're losing per.

[rustic patio]

yea i think ill go with one per minute

like, ill build for max, but whenever i take nuke noobs out of my isc it starts making some

so i can flex both my nobs and my power grid 💪 😼

what do u think about the alts i use?
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=bs56QuO3Dni3RKhcbDth

[median heath]

You should use all alts when making Ur Rods.

Not using Steamed Sheet hurts to see though 😦

[rustic patio]

Yea Ur right, I'll use steamed sheets

[median heath]

Steamed Sheets + Pure Copper is what makes Copper Rotor the best Rotor recipe. 🙂

[rustic patio]

Yes but water 😩😩😩😩
After building my oil setup I have a chronic refinophobia

My oil setup is peak forwardplanning btw haha

[median heath]

Welcome to Satisfactory.
Once you hit T6+ the Refinery replaces a majority of your buildings.

Is one of the only boring aspects of the game imo.

[rustic patio]

Yea

Thank Css for blueprints

[median heath]

Bleh.

[rustic patio]

No surprise

[median heath]

?

[rustic patio]

u seemed like the kind of person that isnt a big fan of blueprints

[median heath]

What does that mean? 😂

[wind spade]

that you seem like the kind of person that isn't a big fan of blueprints

[rustic patio]

not much

i like BPs, makes placing the thousands of refineries necessary easier

or like, the repetitive belt work

[median heath]

I very much like that they kept it 4x4x4.

With the way I build I almost never have a use for them though.

[rustic patio]

i just use them to "enhance" machines

like, adding the under floor logistics to refineries

[median heath]

Stuff like this is the only thing I would really end up using them for.

[rustic patio]

all of this stuff

[rustic patio]

do you never have big blocks of machines?

[median heath]

Not that I can BP, no.
Because each outpost is unique. So spacing, belt connections, belt direction is all something that evolves as I am building.

Now if we could put Water Extractors into the Printer I would use the shit out of it.

[rustic patio]

yea thatd be great

[rustic patio]

makes sense makes sense

my first build is quite big, so it made sense to make blueprints for every machine

i made a giant oil factory that uses all of the oil in spire coast... before i needed oil

[wind spade]

doesn't work if you build the bp box slightly underwater?

(idk, legit question)

[rustic patio]

i can hear someone loading the rebar gun with holy intent

[median heath]

Never tried.

[median heath]

What does it make?

[rustic patio]

3450 oil to HOR to Diluted Fuel. currently 40% of it is going to fuel gens and 60% to recycled rubber/plastic

once i got nuclear going 100% will go to rubber and plastic

i was bored and wanted to make somethingb big so i did that

also partially because people told me bottom feeding doesnt work so i wanted to make something giant that only uses bottom feeding to show them that they are wrong

[median heath]

I did that, but all to Fuel Gens.

And the entire thing was underwater 🙂

[rustic patio]

fancy!

i havent found a way to research a diving suit in the mam yet tho, so i wont do that for now :p

mine is built over the ocean tho, so kinda similar

[craggy quartz]

what do you use power cells on
i only use them for extractors but i'm sitting on like 80 spare cells i feel like i should use them for something else

[oblique hollow]

power cells?

oh power shards

idk, use them wherever you feel

[median heath]

Took this right at water level so the blur wasn't there.

[rustic patio]

everywhere, they save space

[rustic patio]

how much oil in?

[craggy quartz]

it feels inefficient though

[median heath]

All.

[rustic patio]

what?

[craggy quartz]

i can just build another building and it also saves power

[rustic patio]

all the oil of the map?????

[median heath]

All oil from Spire was routed to that location to be made into fuel under water.

[rustic patio]

oooh

soo uhh, 2850?

[median heath]

Just to prove I could do a massive underwater build 🙂

[rustic patio]

?

[median heath]

Checking

[rustic patio]

im asking because theres 600 oil between spire coast and DD, some people consider it a part of spire coast, but im not sure if everyone does

this oil

[median heath]

I think I did 2400 just to make it cleaner numbers.

[rustic patio]

clean numbers are nice

[median heath]

No, I did 3k

Out of the 3450

[deft lichen]

everything north of northern forest and west of dune desert is spire coast

[median heath]

Always do Diluted in multiples of 600 Oil and you will have clean numbers.

[median heath]

ugh.. I have to go test this now...

[rustic patio]

hahahaha

i didnt

i did 345 per line

[median heath]

600 Oil = 800 HOR = 1600 Fuel

[bronze silo]

here 🙂

[rustic patio]

yes yes, but. 3450 oil = split into 10 lines of 12 refineries = split into 10 lines of 10 blenders = split into 20 lines of 18 refineries
thats what im doing. my clockspeeds are weird

[rustic patio]

yes! hi! train min maxxing is very easy

you are limited by two simple things

number one: belt speed! u cant put more stuff in than ur belts can handle

[median heath]

Ah, this is why I OC the Refs in Diluted Fuel.

Refs at 1.25 makes them 1:1 with Blenders.

[rustic patio]

number two: train capacity! a train can only hold so many items, if the train takes 1000 years.. your throughput will be bad

[bronze silo]

so at the mo just short of 1000 with my mk4's

yeah

[rustic patio]

number one is a bit more tricky tho

[median heath]

Longer train routes actually give you higher max throughput.

[rustic patio]

yes, but not always

[median heath]

Um.. yes always.

[oblique hollow]

its a sort of bell curve shape / hyperbola?

[rustic patio]

look at this graph

[median heath]

What is it saying?

[rustic patio]

the blue line is the rtt times where you are limited by train capacity

the red line is the rtt time where you are limited by belt speed

[primal flicker]

Is there a quick comparison of WP/MW for different generators and fuel alts?

[median heath]

Why is the highest number less than 1000?

[rustic patio]

because i made this graph for 50 who is transporting plastic using one mk4 belt.

the graph for iron ore using two mk5 belts looks like this:

[oblique hollow]

theres only one fuel alt unless you mean turbo

[rustic patio]

train capacity does, at a certain point, limit ur throughput

if your round trip time is 10 years, you will be limited by train capacity

[median heath]

"using one mk4 belt"

So we are no longer talking about max throughput in these graphs...

[bronze silo]

you have this on a spreadsheet with formulas?

[primal flicker]

Coke, compacted coal, diluted fuel vs default,....

[rustic patio]

max throughput for their case, i was trying to help them so i adjusted it for their case

[oblique hollow]

diluted fuel wins

all others are like.....
why bother

[median heath]

Max throughput is asymptotic with 1560.
So if you're not even pushing 1k on your graph I have serious doubts.

[oblique hollow]

its that one-sided because diluted is that overpowered

[primal flicker]

OK but the WP for constructing all the infrastructure... It's basically a factory that makes MJ.

[oblique hollow]

aaaand diluted still wins

[rustic patio]

dude, the first graph i posted was for 50, not for you. look at the second graph

the second graph peaks at 1493

[median heath]

600 on the bottom is "seconds" I assume?

[primal flicker]

I'm sure it does, but I have to stick with coal until I have the parts to build fuel gens 😅

[oblique hollow]

you just go coal > fuel > diluted fuel

[rustic patio]

bottom is seconds, side is throughput in items per miinute

[median heath]

Coal > Coke > Diluted for me, personally.

[rustic patio]

here are both lines shown:

the blue line is the train limit, the red line is the belt limit

[median heath]

So what you're showing is if the route is longer than 11 minutes you start to have issues?

[rustic patio]

thats not what im saying

the train limit can at certain stack sizes severely limit the area in which you can get desired thorughput

i am saying that the train limit is not irrelevant in all cases

[median heath]

?

Define "train limit"

[rustic patio]

any situation where your throughput is limited by train capacity

[median heath]

Train capacity being limited by?

[rustic patio]

well, if a train can hold 10 items and takes 1 minute for a round trip, the throughput will be limited to 10 items

[rustic patio]

its limited by the game

[median heath]

That sounds self-inflicted, as you can always add more cars.

[rustic patio]

im talking about per car...

because increasing the amount of cars also incraeses the amount of belts!

[median heath]

Then stop saying "train" 😦

[wind spade]

not necessarily

[rustic patio]

okay, car limit

[rustic patio]

if you use more belts, yes.

and you cant put items into a train car without belts...

so it is necessarily

[median heath]

@rustic patio can you just link me the sheet so I can look at all the graphs?

[rustic patio]

no sheet, math
desmos.com/calculator/srhbandddu

this is the version that only shows the relevant lines:
desmos.com/calculator/djzytmsw4h

[wind spade]

if you add more cars, that doesn't mean you added more belts

[rustic patio]

how will you load those cars without belts mr greeny?

[wind spade]

you split one belt into multiple platforms

[median heath]

@rustic patio will check it when done testing this underwater Printer thing.

Only reason I am very skeptical is because I am the one who wrote the equations on per-car throughput maximums.

[rustic patio]

the reddit post was done by you?

[median heath]

?

Throughput Equations: (1560 is used because it is the max of x2 mk5 belts, and all Times are in minutes.)

First you need TimeToFill. Which is reliant on Cargo Stack Size and Car Capacity.

TtF = (StackSize * Car Capacity) / 1560

If TtF >= RtD (Round Trip Duration)
Throughput = ((RtD - 0.45133_) / RtD) * 1560

If TtF < RtD
Throughput = (TtF / RtD) * 1560

^ That was me.

[rustic patio]

cool

you need to include car limitation too tho

[rustic patio]

the calculator is made to optimize trains, if you cant deliver 780 items then dont enter 780

if you use a hammer to smash ur balls dont sue the hammer manufacturer

[bronze silo]

lmao

[rustic patio]

this post https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/mm0l3q/analysis_everything_you_need_to_know_about_train/

the formulas were weird and they used an incorrect reload time so i derived them myself and did it again

[primal flicker]

I just checked the wiki for some comparisons (of course they're buried in different pages) and it looks like diluted fuel > HOR/coke > default fuel > coal. Interesting. (60 crude/min to default fuel yields 500 MW, vs 720 MW as coke)

[median heath]

If the formulas were weird then it definitely wasn't me.

[rustic patio]

i also wrote a little rust script that shows you your desired RTT and ur buffer

[median heath]

They also go the load/unload time wrong.

[wind spade]

point is that you can run single train with two cars for one 780 belt because distance is far

instead of two trains with one car

[rustic patio]

im not sure what ur trying to say

[rustic patio]

i already said that

[median heath]

@wind spade this is bullshit and I hate it 😦

[rustic patio]

fn main() {
    let desired_throughput: f64 = 450.;
    let stack_size: f64 = 200.;
    let beltspeed: f64 = 480./2.;
    let train_inventory_size: f64 = 32.;
    let reload_time: f64 = 27.08;

    let upper_bound: f64 = (stack_size * train_inventory_size * 60.) / desired_throughput;
    let lower_bound: f64 = 60. / ((60. - (desired_throughput / (beltspeed * 2.)) * 60.) / reload_time);

    println!("Upper bound: {}", upper_bound);
    println!("Lower bound: {}", lower_bound);
    println!("Midpoint: {}", (upper_bound + lower_bound) / 2.);
    println!("Buffer: {}", (upper_bound - lower_bound) / 2.);
}

[median heath]

Water Extractor rows would be the primary use-case for Blueprints in my world... 😦

[bronze silo]

ooooh

I love code

[wind spade]

you have 780 items/min that you want to transport from one end of map to another

one train with one car can't do the loop fast enough to have 780/min throughput

now you have two options:

• add one more train
• add one more car

[rustic patio]

one more train wouldnt work...

[wind spade]

it... would

[rustic patio]

are you saying that this "fact" contradicts my calculator or is this just a funfact you like to mention?

[median heath]

Adding more trains lowers max potential throughput greeny.

[wind spade]

not in this case imo

[bronze silo]

are you talking about a 2nd train with it's own freight wagons?

[wind spade]

because in this case the problem is that train takes too long

[rustic patio]

yes in this case, because greeny is using just one belt

i mean, its impossible to get to 780/min with just one belt in one station

[wind spade]

it definitely is

[rustic patio]

and with 780/min in one car it takes a very long rtt for more trains to become helpful at all

[wind spade]

you buffer it with ISC

[deft lichen]

is any resource extractor allowed? I doubt

[rustic patio]

not if you only use one input

[median heath]

Pretty sure they are not as an entire class of buildings.

[wind spade]

why would you do that

[rustic patio]

because you said you used one belt!!!

or at least it sounded like that to me

[wind spade]

no, I said "you have 780/min belt that you want to transport to other side of the map"

[median heath]

I understand miners and such, but Water Extractors should be allowed because of how many you'll be slapping down... @deft lichen

[rustic patio]

so you have 2 780/2 belts

[wind spade]

I always assume buffered platforms

[wind spade]

that's irrelevant

[rustic patio]

what item are you transporting?

[wind spade]

also irrelevant

[rustic patio]

no it isnt

if its an item that has a stack size of 1 you will need more trains than if it has a stacksize of infinity

stacksize determines how many items fit in a train determines how much a train limits your throughput

so tell me, what is the stacksize of the item?

[wind spade]

any normal

again, the issue is "train can't carry items enough"

[rustic patio]

the amount of items a train can carry is dependant on the stack size

so lets say 500

as long as one train can make the journey in less than 1230 seconds you dont need more than one

[wind spade]

and I'm talking about a situation where it can't make the journey fast enough

[rustic patio]

okay

[wind spade]

then you either have to add a train or a car

[rustic patio]

yes, if the RTT is too long you need to reduce it

what is your point?