math-and-meta

[prisma kraken]

i'd say you need the transport more in grass fields

getting oil and quartz and of course, bauxite to/from grass fields is sort of painful

[wind spade]

that's up to you, but honestly any factory is better than no factory, why not keep it running even if it's inefficient 😛

[prisma kraken]

btw, on-topic for this channel... does anyone have a spreadsheet or formula sorta thing for trucks vs train vs drone that factors in stack sizes, belt throughput, and time/distance of round trip?

[wind spade]

there's a formula on wiki for trains

[prisma kraken]

i've seen some stuff on youtube, but they oversimplify it all in general

[fierce cypress]

the wiki is missing a lot of important info about drones

there hasnt been a lot of testing

[prisma kraken]

i was trying a few weeks ago to push 540/min alum ingot production via drone

and best i could get was ~450-460/min between two ports

[wind spade]

I guess depends on their distance

[vast jungle]

Drones are not that good for high-throughput transportation

[wind spade]

and you can always add more ports

[prisma kraken]

this was central dune desert to titan forest

which isn't a huge distance

the ingot stack size of 100 was the limiting factor with that

[vast jungle]

did you use one drone or two?

[prisma kraken]

2 got me to 460, i forgot the 1 drone rate, but it was lower, not half of it, but lower

i found it surprising that it was so much lower than the 540 i was making

and i knew i'd probably have problems with it, but it was easier than long distance belting, and i didn't need that much

[opaque oak]

The drone port UI shows how many stacks it can transfer per minute.

With current drones assigned.

And what the trip time is.

[prisma kraken]

the calculations are wrong in the ui for stack count

i've always wondered about that

[vast jungle]

you can easily stack drone ports on top of each other in a small 4x4 building...

[prisma kraken]

well of course, you can always go wide

[vast jungle]

its just a matter how many batteries are you willing to spend for the transfer

[prisma kraken]

i just haven't needed that much aluminum

i know it was the wrong solution to get stuff into my base, but i wasn't prepared to do trucks or trains

well, i mean i didn't want to do that

it was more that i had copper where main base is and didn't want to pull the belts for it all yet

and didn't want to use titan forest's copper for aluminum

saving that for pasta-making 🙂

[vast jungle]

I used 3 pure copper nodes (I think) in the titan forest for Pasta...

[noble timber]

You’ll need more than that

[prisma kraken]

yeah, they scream to do that with

copper alloy is your friend in making pasta

there's a few good places to set that up

TF & DD are great for that

as is NF if you didn't start there

[noble timber]

I use the grass fields because I always start in DD

[prisma kraken]

is there an iron node near the 3 normal coppers there?

[noble timber]

I think so? I’m rarely there to be honest

[vast jungle]

you mean more than 3 pure copper?

[noble timber]

Yes

[vast jungle]

I used them to fuel 37 "Copper Alloy" Foundries... got 3 Pasta/min from the factory

more than enough... didn't have the second Phase4 factory done before I reached 1000 Pasta

[prisma kraken]

i just checked, there's not a nearby iron node to the 3 pure normal nodes near the void

and man, i just hit a strange blueprint bug

a lift just doesn't want to connect btw two bp's

[wind spade]

stuff in bps don't connect to each other

[prisma kraken]

no, i mean connecting the lift after stacking 2 bp's

i think its becase you can stack bp's on top of each other sans-foundation

the two middle splitters just won't connect

new one for me

interestingly, this works:

[oblique notch]

thing is its kinda hard to figure out manually, and if you leave it going long enough the UI is mostly accurate.

Also, assuming you have enough vehicles to cover the distance in time, your output will average out to be the same as your input

(with trains needing the exception that they can't actually handle 1560/min becuase of lockouts on the stations)

[prisma kraken]

assuming you aren't trying to fit five pounds of stuff into a 3 pound jug 🙂

[oblique notch]

i did some back of the napkin math somewhere once in this channel that said something like 1 round trip in under 1.5 mins was 5000 a min or something? i dont remember exactly, but i mean the math isnt too hard. just how accurate it is or what not is the hard part

( # of stacks in a train freight car * size of each stack ) / time it takes to make a round trip

problem is there is no real good way to figure out the round trip of the train. Not currently anyways. And signals and other trains and slowdowns and what not make that hard too.

[prisma kraken]

tbh, if you're not getting the throughput you need from a train, just add another train

[oblique notch]

or another freight car, but yep. that is the best way to handle it.

and like the default value is pretty high for a single vehicle - unless your talking like a 15 min route lol\

[prisma kraken]

there's very few items in the game you need that sort of throughput with though

the only two that i've really needed to push like that are quickwire & silica

and there's an easy solution to the quickwire one

[prisma kraken]

what was the problem?

[left fractal]

i did everythin in pic

and this is not 100% eff

[fierce cypress]

it takes time to get to 100% and even then sometimes the UI display is wrong

97% can be assumed to be 100%

[left fractal]

its like 20min pass already

[left fractal]

switch beetween 96 and 97

[opaque oak]

Outputs are empty, inputs ok.
And as said, the efficiency indicator isn't be all, end all.

[fierce cypress]

monitor it, if it never actually stalls then it should be fine

[opaque oak]

Mainly it would stall because the alumina isn't high enough yet.

Because the alumina piping wasn't allowed to fill and is running on minimum amounts.

[fierce cypress]

it should even out eventually

[opaque oak]

Yup.

[oblique hollow]

the machine shows less than 100% if the game slows down or if the machine is still recovering from a previous interruption

if it stays at 97%, its likely the former

[opaque oak]

And if you have hoverpack, it often causes loss in that indicator with the hoverpack grid switching interruptions.

[left fractal]

oh wait i cut power wire

and connect it again its 100 now

is this good way to have foundry

[deft lichen]

why the gaps?

[left fractal]

i hate stick them all and half of foundry go on other foundation

so i put gaps so it fit one foundation each

[manic spruce]

How much of each resource do I need

[prisma kraken]

As McGalleon said, sometimes the calculation is off because of the game being too hard on your hardware

i spent quite a while on alumina in my u6 world trying to get it to go at 100% vs 9x%

[wind spade]

it says there 🤔

[manic spruce]

I mean like iron etc

[prisma kraken]

what recipes will you use?

[wind spade]

depends on recipes, also how much of each per minute you want to produce, etc.

[prisma kraken]

like the autowiring alt recipe will cut your wire demand by 3/4's and steel by 1/2 at the expense of making high speed connectors

[fierce cypress]

assuming defaults

for the remaining items

• 382 mod engines and 100 ACUs

[prisma kraken]

the answer its sorta, gobs of wire, gobs of steel, and a bit of plastic and rubber

[fierce cypress]

50024 wire, 2000 beams/8334 pipes, 7800 plastic/5730 rubber

[prisma kraken]

oh, i'll revise, gobs of plastic and rubber, lol

[fierce cypress]

1500 CBs, 2278 stators, 500 mod frames, 3000 copper sheets, 15900 cable, 37127 iron rods

ok ill stop now

[prisma kraken]

the cable in that all is such a killer 😛

[fierce cypress]

but thats no alts

[left fractal]

[prisma kraken]

is all the rubber in that modular engines?

[fierce cypress]

with alts tools recommends this

[left fractal]

so guys cant make blueprint from statue

[fierce cypress]

yup

[prisma kraken]

i wish there were a way of selecting in that tool 'no refinery alts'

[fierce cypress]

just disable them

[prisma kraken]

well, yeah

[left fractal]

tell that to the creator tho

[fierce cypress]

but feature suggest on greeny's disc

[prisma kraken]

or just 'hide the recyled plastic and rubber chain'

[wind spade]

that's the best one

[prisma kraken]

yeah, it just complicates the display

and i do know how to deal with that, it just takes fiddling

[fierce cypress]

complexity for more profit

its a tradeoff

[prisma kraken]

kind of, but if your doing a recycled petro build, its going to be separate from whatever your target is

its kind of a pain when noodling about things like computers or hmf's

still a nice tool though

[wind spade]

not sure what do you mean by that. The setup makes most rubber/plastic out of oil, so why wouldn't you want to use it?

[tacit shoal]

I'm going to use trucks to transport items of off my trains, i dont have any throughputs yet but i have 8 freights, how many trucks and stops should i use?

[oblique hollow]

a single truck can transport like 1560/min over 1 km distance easily

[tropic hawk]

8 stops

[red vale]

I just started making a nice repository for tractors to collect resources and drop them off, is there a way to prevent the pathing from adding pauses at every truck stop? Do I need to have gaps between the stops?

[tropic hawk]

only make routes go to stops that have the trucks servicing them.

[prisma kraken]

answering your question from hours ago... sometimes you wish to be time-efficient in building, the 300->900 petro build isn't very quick; it requires 4 alt recipes (HOR, recycled rubber/plastic & diluted fuel) that's 40 minutes assuming perfect HD lotto research, several trips for resupply of building materials, and also piping in 2000 water. I am not sure that can be done in < 8 hours, though i haven't quite timed it yet. I think as well if you use packaged diluted fuel vs blender diluted fuel, it takes much longer to build, and you really don't want to do that build w/o the blender recipe.

[red vale]

I have a line of 8 or so truck stops in a central location that the trucks drop resources off at, and when I try to, for example, set up a silica path, I only had the tractor pause at the silica stop, yet when the path was completed it had pauses at every stop that I then had to manually delete. Would adding gaps between the truck stops themselves prevent this or is it just a cost of doing business?

[prisma kraken]

they'll try to stop at every truckstop that they enter the hitbox of

[tropic hawk]

cost of doing business I believe. I use trains (the superior interfactory logistics imho) so I am not as experienced with vehicles so I could be wrong.

[tropic hawk]

but why would you want to spend less time in a game you play?

[prisma kraken]

i'm not sure if it is possible to prevent it

just generally, having more hours in the game than i care to admit... sometimes i want to work on a specific problem

and just want to build out the bare minimum as quickly as i can to get to the problem i wish to solve

[tropic hawk]

fair enough

im currently in the planning phase for a mega-base that would utilize half the nodes in Dune Desert for building construction materials

[prisma kraken]

like i mean, how often do you really say 'man i want to build ANOTHER coal power plant' ?

[tropic hawk]

and the floor plan sketching is less than enjoyable

[tropic hawk]

I am not looking forward to a 466 one I will be building soon...

[prisma kraken]

466?

[ebon crater]

I am struggling with trains.

I want to have 3 pick up locations and 1 drop off. how the heck do I figure out how many train cars/trains/platforms I need?
the rate/min of every item on this train is:
stop 1:
coal: 772.5
iron: 565
copper: 800
stop 2:
quartz: 1428.75
stop 3:
sulphur: 480

I am planning on making it a loop, btw

[prisma kraken]

I'd do 2 4 car trains, one for each item

[tropic hawk]

I would plan on having 6 cars (2 engines) and have each car be the equivalent to one belt. If they are not meeting it as expected, build another train and have that deliver the others

[tropic hawk]

256 Coal Gens, 210 Compacted Coal gens

[prisma kraken]

ahh

never have done compacted coal

[tropic hawk]

which takes care of the sulfur and most of the coal in Dune Desert (the rest I use for steel)

[prisma kraken]

always seems like a waste of sulfur to me

i did actually do a few weeks ago a 96 gen straight coal plant with blueprints

[red vale]

Oh I want to get to trains soon, but I figured that since I'm nearly through tier 4 of tech I should build a proper mall and localized factory so tractors it is for now lol

[tropic hawk]

honestly you don't really need to use sulfur for anything except power and drones, (technically nobelisks, but if you go through enough that you need more than one node, you have a problem)

[tropic hawk]

trust me, you still have plenty to unlock.

[prisma kraken]

its needed for mag field generators (batteries)

[tropic hawk]

oh, forgot about those

so another late game use.

[prisma kraken]

and for nuclear, which is optional

[ebon crater]

is there a way to make it so that the trains always arrive at a certain time? say, train one arrives at t=0, leaves at t=30, trains 2 arrives at t = 2:30 and leaves at t= 3, even if train 2 had nothing to pick up?

[prisma kraken]

no

[tropic hawk]

the best solution I have figured is to have two trains going in a loop, scheduled to only depart when full, and no 2 stops fills the same cart

[tropic hawk]

i factored that in power, since turbofuel too

[prisma kraken]

you can fiddle with the train's config to say 'wait until full' or something like that

i think its good to leave at least one sulfur normal node for batteries, and have another around for use in alt recipes

imho though, its just a pain to build a CC plant in an area where you have coal + sulfur

i can really only think of 3 locations where that's possible

well, arguably 4...

no, there is a 5th

you can do so in grass fields

[ebon crater]

what if I have three trains. 1 loop, three areas to change direction. one train for each stop

[prisma kraken]

when i embrace the use of trains in a world, i usually end up with about 7-8 trains

[tropic hawk]

then still schedule them to stay until full/empty and keep sending them on loops. if rates are too low, add more on the same loop

[prisma kraken]

it ends up that i'll have a sulfur train, a plastic/rubber train, silica/quartz, copper, and caterium train

possibly a nitrogen one as well

that can be done via drone however

[cinder silo]

I still just pipe nitrogen, it's just so easy.

[ebon crater]

yep, sounds good. I might do two trains, one with the first batch and one with second and third. since sulphur is just 480

[prisma kraken]

yeah, but i like the empties management with the trains 🙂

oh, i forgot, an aluminum train as well

[tropic hawk]

good luck!

[prisma kraken]

can't forget that one

how i'll build out a train network is really a series of intersecting loops around my main base

[ebon crater]

thanks (:

hopefully the fluid isnt much more difficult...

[tropic hawk]

https://tenor.com/view/hysterical-laughter-laughing-gif-25735842

[prisma kraken]

man, i wish that max belt length were 4 meters longer

[cinder silo]

Weld those belts!

[ebon crater]

I have 1800/min oil that I either have to package or use fluid containers for it...

[cinder silo]

Why not just use it?

[ebon crater]

because I dont want to 😈

[cinder silo]

🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

really trains sorta suck for transporting fluids

[cinder silo]

You made your own problem then.

[prisma kraken]

their car capacity just isn't that big

[ebon crater]

absolutley.

[ebon crater]

thats why I might try to make it into packaged fuel

once I have my trains sorted, im set

i've got a planner thats mostly visual to tell me how to make all the stuff, I just dont know how to get it all there lol

fun challenge tho

[prisma kraken]

those tools sometimes can be misleading

[ebon crater]

tools had no play in how this was built

[prisma kraken]

like for the 300->900 petro build, how to lay it out with splitters and mergers so its self-starting isn't shown

[ebon crater]

I used my brain, my calculator, and the wikipedia page

[wind spade]

if you are talking about satisfactory tools, they don't show you how to build things (because that's up to the player themselves), they only show you how many buildings you need

[prisma kraken]

satisfactorytools also does some strange stuff like tells you to send the residual rubber straight into the output in the 300->900 petro builds

[tropic hawk]

it does flat out weird stuff when recycled recipes are factored in, hence why I do that part manually

I assume it is going to be worked on in the newer version greeny is working on, and I'm crossing my fingers

[wind spade]

it just gives you the logistic numbers, it doesn't tell you how to route resources

[prisma kraken]

yeah

[wind spade]

it wasn't ever designed as a "tool that tells you how to build whole base". I even don't like the idea of such a tool. Making a base is creative process so logistics are up to the player to decide. My tool just gives you the raw numbers to follow

[tropic hawk]

which I do like. I think some of the item flow suggestions could be better, but its a free tool that does exactly what it should 90% of the time and saves me 95% of my time. So I take it without ad blockers and use it to the hilt

[prisma kraken]

changing topic, does anyone know if 10 smelters underclocked is cheaper on power than 8 smelters at 100% ?

[tropic hawk]

I think so, not entirely sure though

[prisma kraken]

it'll save me 15 setting it up

[tropic hawk]

im assuming both are equivalent in ECS

[prisma kraken]

15 minutes time i mean

[wind spade]

yes it should be

[wind spade]

it doesn't have ads 🤔

the problem with the "flow suggestions" is that there is basically no logic behind it because it's designed to work with any dataset. So I don't really feel like giving it hardcoded info like "if it's residual rubber, always hook it to recycled loop"

[tropic hawk]

it doesn't have ads
Well, time to scour my device for viruses again... and I just wiped it three days ago too...

[wind spade]

maybe you are confusing it with SCIM?

[tropic hawk]

the problem with... loop"
Fair enough, I did chat with someone who just manually started their loop

[tropic hawk]

or HELL NO. I use SCIM exclusively for the map, and that's it.

[wind spade]

which is also an option, another reason why I don't want to "force" build style to players

[prisma kraken]

29.8 mw vs 32

[wind spade]

ah, it's not on the new tools, but the old ones had the info

I am working on this project in my free time and I will keep it free and without ads forever

[oblique notch]

you can disable this by removing some of the recipes (ie uncheck residual rubber)

[rough light]

hey guys, does anyone know blueprints that would efficiently produce: oil, rubber and plastic for a x2 oil extractor setup?

[raw radish]

i got one that produces fuel for generators, plastic and rubber, one extractor to 2 refineries to (i think) 16 generators. not in a blueprint yet, i havent messed with it yet.

[rough light]

oh alright

wouldnt matter too much to me if it were, i havent even unlocked blueprints yet for some reason

actually let me go do that right now

[raw radish]

basically its one extractor running at 250%, going into two refineries producing fuel and polymer resin, also at 250%, going into two refineries, one producing plastic at 125% , and the other producing rubber at 187.5% (water running into both from a single water pump at 100%) that makes enough fuel for 16 fuel generators. (technically 16 and 2/3rds but 16 is a nice square number) i can provide an aerial photo if you need ❤️

[oblique notch]

Not really what blueprints are intended for. And refineries being as big as they are, would be a real tight squeeze.

if you want just how many machines of each, then check out u6.satisfactorytools.com

[rough light]

thanks

i was just thinking about how the heck im gonna bring it all back

[rough light]

sadly nowhere near unlocking fuel generators, but thanks for the values they really give me a good idea on what im supposed to do

[tropic hawk]

depends on extraction rate

[mystic moon]

Yeah, I do my refineries in two blueprints

[oblique notch]

i do mine in 1 bp per building, because... yeah. lol.

im crazy and mine are all about deco

[rough light]

well, i guess pure

2x pure

[tropic hawk]

so a total of 240 oil/min?

[rough light]

doubt it

if the normal extraction rate is 120

and pure is double

[tropic hawk]

sorry, I was trying to recall without pulling up SCIM

[rough light]

it should be 480 right

[tropic hawk]

so 480 oil/ minute you want to turn into plastic and rubber, correct?

[rough light]

yes

[tropic hawk]

yes

[tropic hawk]

do you have any alts? if so, what? do you want to do a proportion other than 1:1 for plastic to rubber?

[rough light]

i dont have any alts as i spent both my harddrives on the turbofuel research

also i think a 1:1 is fine

but if a 1:2 is efficient id like to try that

[tropic hawk]

Do you have any desired uses for the HOR run-off?

[rough light]

uuum

what is that?

this is kinda my first playthrough so im not big on the terms especially not in this phase since i only just unlocked it

[tropic hawk]

You're all good. HOR is shorthand for Heavy Oil Residue, a byproduct from the plastic/rubber production using the default recipe

[rough light]

oh got it

is polymer resin a byproduct of plastic then?

[tropic hawk]

no, that would be a byproduct of fuel production

[rough light]

ah

oh right that is what makes plastic

well i'm not sure what i can do with the residue

i didnt know that was even a thing

maybe i'll just split it off into all available uses

[tropic hawk]

once you hit oil is when you get byproducts to processes.

[rough light]

since im producing a whole 480p/m

i think i should be able to make a little of all

even if it is slow

would come in handy for maybe MAM research or something

[tropic hawk]

to reiterate the question, do you want to refine the HOR into something else, or do you want to store it en masse then flush it when it reaches capacity (or package it and sink it)

[raw radish]

HOR only goes into smokeless powder, petroleum choke, or fuel, so the HOR byproduct can be put into ammo for the rifle, better power for coal generators, or fuel generators... Right?

[tropic hawk]

worse power for coal, your burn more Petrol. Coke/min than coal/min. but you can burn it for power

[tropic hawk]

@rough light just let me know and I can give you a flow chart with the suggested blueprints

[rough light]

i want to mass store it

[tropic hawk]

Alright, one sec

[mystic moon]

You really dont

[rough light]

why not?

[mystic moon]

Why yes?

[rough light]

for starters:

i havent unlocked a plethora of things in the hub

and i'd like to have it so i can craft whatever needed materials myself

UNTIL i unlock those extra things in the hub

what else am i gonna do with the HOR?

[mystic moon]

The stuff you can make from it isn't used in handcrafting

Just turn to coke and burn

[rough light]

one question, what's coke

[mystic moon]

Coal substitute

[tropic hawk]

a coal alternate that burns quicker (less efficient)

[rough light]

so it was a nickname

[tropic hawk]

Coke is shorthand for Petroleum Coke

[rough light]

is it more efficient if i turn it into turbofuel?

[tropic hawk]

A lot more, turbofuel burns at a rate of 4.5 units/min wheras fuel burns at 12 units/min. I would recommend it.

[rough light]

so do i make coke and turn it into turbofuel? or is that not how it works

[snow dove]

uses sulfur which is needed for nuclear

[rough light]

oh

well, i'm not really at nuclear just yet, give it another 100 hours or so

[tropic hawk]

Coke is an ingredient in one of the recipes for TF. and while yes, sulfur is used for nuclear, when you are at that phase, you can just turn off the turbofuel plant

[snow dove]

these are the recipes

[rough light]

got it i'll do that then

[snow dove]

compacted coal is coal and sulfur btw

[rough light]

thanks i know cause i spent 2 harddrives getting both the MAM researches

i am in pain

[rough light]

yo what the heck is a blender

that sounds awesome, but also like something i dont need since i unlocked the mam

[tropic hawk]

you unlock it once you get to aluminum, you are not close to that.

I can factor in you want to turn the HOR into turbofuel, how much sulfur and coal do you want to input?

[rough light]

yep. also i think i wanna put the HOR into turbo heavy fuel

[rough light]

the 3rd row on this graph

sounds like something i'd do

[tropic hawk]

alright, once I get the coal and sulfur numbers, I will give you the chart

[rough light]

thanks, i'll try it out tomorrow cause it's hella late for me rn

[tropic hawk]

just ping me once you have them

[rough light]

👌

[snow dove]

5hor:4turbo
5hor:13.33fuel:11.11 turbo

it's significantly better to turn hor into fuel using the diluted fuel recipe then turn that into turbofuel using the default turbofuel recipe

the former is using turbo heavy, the latter is using the default recipe and diluted fuel

[rough light]

oh

[snow dove]

base recipe uses less sulfur per turbofuel too

[rough light]

but then

what am i gonna do with the residue

or, i mean

is it really okay to turn fuel into turbofuel directly

[snow dove]

yeah

[rough light]

based off this i can tell it's going to use ALOT more space

[snow dove]

that's the tradeoff, complexity for resource efficiency

[rough light]

which i guess isnt much of an issue but i need to transport a boatload more

[snow dove]

that's almost always how it works

[rough light]

well in my homebase i built simple dual smelt -> constructors systems that were perfectly efficient

and they were small enough to fit in blueprints each

i think i could make a neat system out of this oil famr

so i guess it isnt that much of an issue

[tropic hawk]

In theory, the best use of oil is Crude -> HOR -> Diluted Fuel -> Turbofuel and burn all the extra fuel and turbo for power, and use the poly resin for rubber and plastic.

best use case in terms of power production at any rate

[rough light]

faster power production is fine, but faster item production is better

because theres no way im gonna build this whole farm and then whoops, no more oil deposits guess i gotta go to the pink forest 💀 💀 💀

i'm not going back to that ungodly land

[raw radish]

dont like the random uranium spots and giant spiders?

[rough light]

yes.

i have NO use for uranium yet

the hard drives in there can wait

genuinely, not until i nobelisk that entire place

god.

[raw radish]

yea, i feel you there. beautiful area, but big nope on the wildlife

[rough light]

real.

i also hate how you can't chop down the melon trees

they look like theyre gonna pop out something my heart is not going to withstand

therefore, i chose the oil deposits at the desert beach

not too far away from the grassy plains

but there are only 2 pure deposits, kindof a bummer

[final heron]

I forgot when its a decimal like 2.667 is it 66.7, 6.67, or .667?

oh nvm i got it

it is 66.7

[tropic hawk]

It's 66.667

[final heron]

nay

[tropic hawk]

Yea.

[final heron]

ok

[tropic hawk]

Unless you manually set it. Then it is 66.7% the game can't handle ⅔ and so it does rounding

[final heron]

okay thanks for the hlep

[tropic hawk]

My pleasure

[wind spade]

it's 66.6667% 😛

that's the closest you can get to 2/3

[rustic patio]

comparing this here and this here @steep rivet

[vast jungle]

7000 Quartz sounds like PAIN...

[rustic patio]

yep

i think ill go for the one that doesnt take quartz

[opaque oak]

Using the default alumina solution would give some of that silica.

Yeah, not enough difference for it to make sense.

Because the max drops down.

[vast jungle]

in my current playthrough I only used Sloppy Aluminia and Normal Scrap... not that efficient, but very easy to build

but the Sloppy-Electrode sounds like an interesting choice for the Bauxit (nearly) at the West Coast...

[prisma kraken]

man, on this topic, i just got my U6 aluminum factory back running

nearly trippled my awesome sink points, lol

fyi, i'm doing it the hard way of sloppy->electrode->silica

unfun build, ftr

building something that eats 3000 silica/min

all that being said, the recipe chain i used is the max yield one

what's kind of interesting is that in getting it more or less completed tonight, i'm looking at this build from the lens of having used blueprints for the past 2 months, and um, its really really different

i mean, all that beltwork was done pre-ceiling mounts

[vapid gorge]

That’s why I think most people aim to get the pure recipe

[vapid gorge]

It’s pretty convenient in that if you have the right oil alts you need very little oil for processing instead of thousands of coal

[vast jungle]

I need more Aluminium for my Thermal Propulsion Rocket project... (if I ever get it started)
so sounds like a good idea to test it

[vapid gorge]

Well I think you only need 980~ oil for a world max Bauxite refinery so it can be very compact delivery

doing sloppy electrode

[rustic patio]

you need 978 oil to get max aluminum

[cinder silo]

I probably should have done coke instead of coal since there is plenty enough spare oil.

[rustic patio]

yep, i plan to use coke for all my aluminum stuff and use all the coal to make steel

then ill use the steel recipes for everything, steel rods, steel coated plates etc

[cinder silo]

Right now The likelihood is high if I swap it would fuck the whole place up and the downstream production.

[rustic patio]

its nice that coal is better for steel than coke and coke is better for aluminum than coal

makes the choice easy

[cinder silo]

Well the numbers for coupons are nuts.

[rustic patio]

lmao

[cinder silo]

The numbers go insane after a while.

[prisma kraken]

don't underestimate coke steel

you yield 100 steel per foundry

the machine count for solid steel is much higher

@dire knoll the steel coated plate is sorta a dud recipe, in some ways its better to just divert a little iron ore to plate making and do it that way

i'll use it if i have plastic and rubber on the same belts nearby

[rustic patio]

its faster but solid steel has higher ratio

[opaque oak]

For those with extra coke.

[rustic patio]

and there really isnt a use for coal besides steel or power, and i plan to use nuclear for power

[prisma kraken]

don't forget turbofuel

[opaque oak]

That is in the power

[prisma kraken]

yeah

[rustic patio]

i plan to go from my current setup directly to nuclear, so i wouldnt need coal

[rustic patio]

time = 5
stack_size = 500
effective_beltspeed = (time*60-25)*780/(time*60)*2
real_train_capacity = stack_size * 32 / time
print("Effective Belt Speed: ")
print(effective_beltspeed * 2)
print("Train Capacity: ")
print(real_train_capacity)

[wind spade]

that doesn't have the 27s pause factored in

[opaque oak]

It's there as 25 seconds

[wind spade]

it's 27.08s tho

[fierce cypress]

easy fix

[opaque oak]

Got the same number via recording and frame by frame check.

[rustic patio]

u also got 27.08?

[opaque oak]

The .08 is weird.

Just rounded to 27 and though I just had something weird, but it was few frames more and very close to 0.08s over 27 seconds.

Already deleted the video.

First frame with empty space seen on the belt to first frame with something on the belt again.

[rustic patio]

do any of u know desmos? how do i add a conditional to an expression?

haha

figured it out

cant send the link 😩

want it in dms?

[fierce cypress]

send it without the https:// or whatever at the start

[rustic patio]

desmos.com/calculator/n9og0hndci

S is stack size, it calculates what the max throughput at certain times is. y is time and x is throughput

[fierce cypress]

yup

[rustic patio]

@ocean sluice

[fierce cypress]

@rustic patio does it only account for the loading time of 1 station - because it would have to be __>__2 stations in a RTT

[opaque oak]

No it doesn't

[rustic patio]

wdym?

you have 4 belts that get stopped 4 times, so you have to apply the 27.08 seconds only once per belt

[fierce cypress]

there has to be at least 2x 27.08 cycles in a trains RTT

[ocean sluice]

alr ty

[rustic patio]

no, because the flow into the thing only gets stopped once, and the flow out only gets stopped once too

maximum inflow gets reduced and maximum outflow gets reduced too, by the same amount

[fierce cypress]

yes but its two separate instances, not simultaneous

[opaque oak]

That doesn't matter

[fierce cypress]

meaning that the time is wrong

[rustic patio]

the buffers account for that

[opaque oak]

You have flow in, then transport, then flow out. Slowest is the limiter. And the flow in and flow out are identical, with single pause. And the calculation is seeing what the transport requirements are.

[fierce cypress]

if you say enter a stack size of 1, the RTT is 28.311 seconds - which is physically impossible

[rustic patio]

if you halve the belt speed at the input and at the output it doesnt quarter your throughput, it only halves it

stack size of one doesnt exist

[fierce cypress]

yes it does

[snow dove]

equipment

[fierce cypress]

portable miners for example

but it shouldn't matter whether it exists or not

[opaque oak]

And that is right. Because transferring 32 items over two belts doesn't take long

[rustic patio]

well, 28.311 would be the optimal rtt

i dont see how that makes it wrong

[fierce cypress]

1.231 seconds apparently

[fierce cypress]

im probably just tired lol

[opaque oak]

Which is impossible for single train.

[rustic patio]

nvm you mixed it up

28 isnt the rtt, its the throughput. 67 is the rtt

[fierce cypress]

and this is the throughput and RTT of a single train and carriage?

[bronze silo]

where should the signals go please?

[fierce cypress]

no, x (67) is the throughput - y (28) is the RTT

as you said earlier

[wind spade]

path on entrances, block on exits

[rustic patio]

no, vertical is throughput horizontal is time

[fierce cypress]

yes

[rustic patio]

67 seconlds and 28 items

[opaque oak]

So 28 and some items every 68 seconds.

[rustic patio]

no

at a round trip time of 68 seconds you owuld have a throughput of 28 items per minute

[fierce cypress]

ah that makes more sense lmfao, yea its 4am i should sleep

[bronze silo]

correct for left hand drive?

sweet, thanks

[rustic patio]

make sure to give big blocks before the paths or else itll slow down

[wind spade]

left hand drive is not correct

[opaque oak]

Sorry, very badly written line from me.

[rustic patio]

because path is red by default

[fierce cypress]

technicalities

[rustic patio]

but really whoever transports so many miners by train that they need a graphing calculator to optimize it...

[bronze silo]

lmao

[rustic patio]

they should see a therapist

[fierce cypress]

my plans are beyond your comprehension

[rustic patio]

:p

[fierce cypress]

my plans also include trying and failing to read desmos at 4am so you're not too far off on the therapist mark

[rustic patio]

go sleep! ficsit punishes any inefficiencies committed under sleep deprivation with 6 weeks of reduced pay

[fierce cypress]

wait... you guys get paid?

anyhow i will sleep, i shall see you all bright and early in two hours 😛

[rustic patio]

good night

[prime horizon]

If I have 240 ore coming in on this belt, will it eventually evenly distribute using splitters like this?
Hope someone understand what im asking x)

As the first one chokes from getting 120, it will keep going to the next etc etc right?

[tropic hawk]

Yep.

!wikisearch manifold

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=manifold

[prime horizon]

Oh alright cool, thats what manifolding is. I've heard it in videos

[prime horizon]

Thank you for answering

[tropic hawk]

My pleasure.

also for the record:

!wikisearch balancing

[shadow prairie]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Special:Search?query=balancing

[last saddle]

i've always been doing something like the orange thing and getting dissatisfied with my designs
after giving it some thought i think it's probably better to do the blue thing?

[hazy dune]

im going to copy this when i rebuild for phase 2

which one should I go for?

[last saddle]

hard 2

[hazy dune]

steel screws?

it does take up a lot of my iron work and I do need more steel products

[last saddle]

both others look good but from what i've heard redirecting screw production is very beneficial

[hazy dune]

it is

I'd like copper screws at some point

[last saddle]

also steel screws are perfect for computer production

(130/min)

keep in mind iron:steel is 1:1 assuming defaults
so steel is esssentially Iron For Different Things
the more things you allocate to steel the more you can do with Normal Iron

[wind spade]

whichever will help you the most

[snow vigil]

?

[wind spade]

same answer as above

[snow vigil]

middle?

[wind spade]

whichever will help you the most

[snow vigil]

oh

im genuinely not sure none of these seem useful at all

[wind spade]

there's no "best" or "worst" recipe, each recipe has different advantages and disadvantages

[snow vigil]

i mean its right then i guess because the other two seem useless and add more complexity

[wind spade]

iron wire: makes wire out of iron instead of copper, more ingot per wire cost
iron alloy: makes iron ingots out of mix of iron and copper, less ore per ingot cost
bolted frame: makes frames faster but at more cost per frame

[snow vigil]

Oh

Ill go for iron wire

[wind spade]

pick whatever seems useful for you

[snow vigil]

Thanks for the help

[wind spade]

there's never a bad choice

(excpet for alternate beacon recipe because that one will most likely be removed in the future)

[arctic willow]

sure there is

biocoal is a bad choice 😛

[wind spade]

it is not...

it is useful in some scenarios 🤷‍♂️

[arctic willow]

i've found charcoal useful, for sure, but biocoal... nope

[wind spade]

if you don't find it useful, that's fine, don't use it. But that doesn't mean it's bad

[tropic hawk]

mind elaborating what you mean? (and also what program you used for this?)

[tropic hawk]

and biocoal

[snow vigil]

Ive got a question, if theres for example, too much material in a buildings intake and it completely fills it up, would that negatively affect efficiency?

like, if its clogged up like this

[tropic hawk]

so long as it can still produce, and it doesn't clog the output of the extraction/previous process, no

[snow vigil]

Thank you

wait wdym by previous process?

[last saddle]

i would normally make bulk-processing chains that stacked upwards
this would frequently result in lower levels exceeding belt capacity and requiring some quirky logistic workarounds
this would also involve long lines of constructors or other fabricators that would be inconsistent with each other on the same floor and leave a lot of empty space
however i think that if i instead use many small processing chains that require only the input of infra-primary products (ingots, silica/crystals, etc.) it'll be a bit easier on myself and look better

[wind spade]

see above

[vapid gorge]

I find Iron wire often useful.
One way to look at it is especially if you're making a more complicated item from scratch that lower tier item alts give you even more flexibility in what resources you need to make higher tier ones. So iron wire can let you build things that normally need copper for wire in places with no copper. Or maybe to save on the copper that does exist by letting you use iron you don't have a need for

[vapid gorge]

I don't really see the difference between the blue and orange tbh

[snow vigil]

thats what i picked yeah it seemed pretty ambitious

[last saddle]

it's like instead of taking an entire floor of products upwards until the most advanced one, the advanced products are made one by one from localized chains
that way the only logistical challenge is getting the most basic products in

[vapid gorge]

So you you need bigger floors to do multiple processes I guess?

[last saddle]

uhh let me draw out the blue one more comprehensively

[last saddle]

i guess the goal is to streamline the transportation of intermediate products by barely transporting them at all
my previous models involved vertically implementing the production chain on a large scale, which would end up in having to lift products in groups despite being in single lines
the red diagram represents the distribution of machines if i were to widen this chain by a small margin and save an assembler in the process
it would require a few manifolds but i can keep going until i reach 15 frames/min, any further would exceed my current belt capacity of 270 in the screw line (but it may also be frustrating at the threshold since it would require 285 iron per minute)

[oblique notch]

youre on the right track, but its better to produce further down the chain close to the ore nodes, and ship intermediate/advanced prodcts where needed

simply because you have far smaller transportation requirements

[vapid gorge]

did you swap the colours? cause that looks the opposite of w hat was in the previous pic

[last saddle]

the colors aren't relevant to the previous pic, sorry if that was misleading

[vapid gorge]

so you said yo uwere swapping to blue before , is this still the case in this pic?

[last saddle]

maybe some version of red in order to make more out of the machines, though that isn't entirely necessary

red has the same concept as blue it's just not singular

[oblique notch]

My advice is dont over think this kind of modularity

By the time you want to expand your production of Frames, for example, you'll probably have at least one alt for one of those parts

at that point, your modular set up no longer applies

[last saddle]

you do make a point
i think i've always been misled by how screws are multiplicative instead of 1:1 or divisive

[oblique notch]

which is why most people opt for the alts that remove screws from the equation all together 😁

or if they do use screws, its always produced on site and for short belt lengths to the consumer, and dont ship it via train

[last saddle]

another problem with myself is that i very much prefer sticking to one place
i don't often explore to collect drives, slugs, etc, as much as i should lol
i've already secured two drives for compacted coal and turbofuel

[oblique notch]

generally my thought process is:

Ok. I need Frames in order build lots of Foundries. So i will produce ... mmm 15 frames per minute. Foundries arent that insane for me at this point, once a storage bin fills up I probably wont need more than 15 a min to refil the bin between building sessions.

right, so I make a factory to produce 15 frames per minute.

Frames are used in Heavy Modular frames. But I will completely ignore that original frame factory now. I will rebuild, from the ground up, HMF to produce 25 a minute (because i need them for Blenders, Drone Ports, Every single thing to do with trains and usually about this point most importantly... Fuel gens.)

I wont even consider that 15 Frames/min i already built as part of this. That is there to make sure I always have a full storage bin anytime i return from building a bunch of Foundries.

Likewise this new setup will be the same for HMF. It will be to ensure I always have a full storage bin after building stations and fuel gens and what not.

But it will never be used to feed into producing Fused Modular Frames for example.

Once i start needing Manufactureres to produce parts tho its kinda a toss up - do I have this factory only provide for building materials, or do I fill building on priority, and overflow from here is sent off to another factory - accepting that any time I pull from the storage bin it may put a hiccup into another factory. Im ok with that in most situations. Lots of people arent.

except for concrete and Iron Plates ive never run a ISC dry in building, and I build some insane stuff. Usually 10-30 a min of any given part is more than enough to replace what you use with building (concrete, Silica, Iron plates are the big exceptions depending on your building style 😛 Plastic if you really love coated concrete

[vapid gorge]

yeah modularity in this fashion means less flexibility. If I'm not making a dedicated permanent factory I'll make an iron node entirely into rods, or plates or whatever , then connect it as needed to the next production line

[dense cave]

I would avoid doing blue, it just becomes chaos 😦

[jolly badge]

other than charcoal, all my homies hate charcoal

[prisma kraken]

portable miner, lol

[prisma kraken]

two exceptions i find to this are massive refinery builds and power storage - both can kinda bleed your storage dry (engines for refineries & modular frames & stators for power storage)

i'll kinda toss blenders into the same category, but if you need more than 2-3 of them, its a BIG time-consuming build, lol

geothermal too, now that i think about it

[wind spade]

it allows you to automate portable miners

how is that bad?

[prisma kraken]

haha

[wind spade]

it's not a joke tho

[prisma kraken]

why would you ever clog your inventory with them?

[wind spade]

how is that related to "automating portable miners"

[prisma kraken]

like there's really no point in pre-making them when you need them - just carry rods & plates and drop a workshop to build them

plus what are you going to do with a storage container full of them?

[wind spade]

I'd personally rather spend 5 minutes automating them rather than 30 minutes of handcrafting

you need several 100s for miners mk3 + more for drones

[prisma kraken]

and then the 2 hours traveling to resupply because you didn't have enough cable or rods or plates

[wind spade]

why two hours?

also todolist exist

as well as online tools

[prisma kraken]

resupplying in a remote build is probably the biggest time sink in the game

[wind spade]

same argument could be made for "you forgot materials for portable miners"

[prisma kraken]

rods & plates?

[wind spade]

that's why you have construction vehicles/trains

(also how remote do you want to build, small build like portable miner automation will most likely be next to your storage)

[prisma kraken]

also, the cost is ridiculous.... engine + 4 pipe more than hand crafting them

[wind spade]

cost of automation 🤷‍♂️

nobody forces you to use it, but the fact that you don't like the recipe doesn't mean it's useless or bad

[prisma kraken]

i actually feel the beacon recipe to be at least useful

[wind spade]

beacon recipe was mentioned because it's gonna be removed in the future

so if people want to make factories future-proof, then using that recipe is not ideal

[prisma kraken]

well yeah, the crystal version of it has uses in maxing out uranium power though

[wind spade]

not arguing against that

[prisma kraken]

so happy that they changed rifle ammo to not use beacons

in u4/5 that was such a pain to automate

[barren quartz]

at what point is it not worth adding more drones to correct big throughputs? working on nuclear logistics and already sitting with 20 drones just to move sulfur, getting worried about blasting through my 800batteries/min on just flying raw mats

for ref, nuclear setup in dune desert, power plants/water all in the water east of swamps and using all local sulfur/2100uranium

[prisma kraken]

sheesh, i thought i was a glutton trying to push 540 aluminum ingot via drone

[barren quartz]

was hoping i could run 2 from normal sulfurs and still even out 600/min total but each one comes at 254 which made me re-think my entire layout lol

I have 1500 alclad sheets/800batteries per min to play around but thats just being wasteful i feel

[prisma kraken]

if my math is correct, assuming base nuclear recipes, you should need 450 sulfur per 600 uranium

i think that works out to ~1550 sulfur?

[barren quartz]

With full refinement for plutonium i think it edges out to that/a bit more, original math worked out to needing 2 pure and 2 normal lines

[prisma kraken]

*1575 sulfur

[barren quartz]

1550 sounds right for uranium rods. I think there’s more for the waste refinement iirc

[prisma kraken]

3.5 * 450

i'm counting the recycling into pfr's

[barren quartz]

1575 for base recipe route w/ 2100ur? That might be semi-doable with drone spam

[prisma kraken]

you need 450 sulfur for the complete nuclear chain per 600 uranium

yeah

little more than 2 pure sulfur nodes

[barren quartz]

That might justify my sulfur armada, will have to tinker with my math sheets bc i think i overestimated sulfur then

[prisma kraken]

you didn't count the sulfur waste product in euc production

[barren quartz]

called me out where it hurts

completely forgot to add in the recycling

[prisma kraken]

🙂

i just did a 75 gw build in the swamp, so the math is still in my head, lol

[barren quartz]

overcompensating bc my playthrough is with craftable power shards so im capping out far earlier than i hoped

saved hella stress for me with that math tho, Ficsit thanks you for the improved efficiency

[prisma kraken]

if you'd like my spreadsheet on the numbers, i'll give it to ya

[barren quartz]

honestly ye if you dont mind, considering doing smaller production chains to not get lost in the mess so that math would be huge

[prisma kraken]

pm incoming

[barren quartz]

<3 much appreciated

[prisma kraken]

btw, running the numbers with a 262.5 gw target (max off of all the uranium), i can tell you that you're looking at some HUGE numbers for a few things

1250 quickwire calls out to me, 525 silica, i think you may need more than one nitrogen well, like the only thing i think you have enough of in that region of the world is water, lol

the thing that'll kill you is 210 stators/min

[oblique notch]

Fair enough... I also don't build hundreds of machines at a time. But if you know you're going to, then plan accordingly and produce more 🙂

(I also scatter my power storage everywhere. Every building has a 5 or 6 or more that are used as decoration as well as storage

[prisma kraken]

yeah, dropping them whenever you can is a good idea

i generally don't carry stators in my inventory though

[oblique notch]

I do lol. Cause my builds are all about deco

[rustic patio]

hi, i posted a calctulator for train throughput calculator here yesterday but i did it when i was tired and there were a few mistakes, here is the new and correct version

www.desmos.com/calculator/1v44mqsb1c

R is reload time, leave it at 27.08. S is stacksize, put that to whatever stacksize the item is you wnat to transport

itll show you the max throughput at different round trip times

[fierce cypress]

and the RTT minimum is 67.819 seconds correct? @rustic patio

[rustic patio]

technicall an rtt of 27.09 would be able to transfer items, but you're limited by the speed of the trains and the time a train takes at the train station, which is not what i was concerned with

my concern was answering what the throughput at a given rtt is, and since you cant achieve a rtt of 27.09 anyway its irrelevant

[opaque oak]

For belt speed calculation, there is just one interruption of single loading/unloading time.
For train round trip time there are two 27.09s stops and the actual travel times.

But as the RTT must be measured, it will include the stop times.

[rustic patio]

wdym?

[opaque oak]

I meant the time that it takes for a train to actually do the round has to be measured. To know it ingame.

[rustic patio]

yes, this only shows u what ur throughput is after you measured your rtt

or it showsc you what rtt u would need for a certain throughput

noone goes "ah yes, i want my train to have a throughput of 23 items per minute"

[rustic patio]

@ocean sluice

[ocean sluice]

Mb I thought it was 3 plastic for steel one

[snow vigil]

hey, is there a website/program that i can use to just draw my factory plans without too much pain (by pain i mean using shit like microsoft paint, not very fun)

Im aware of the calculator but i want to do things my way

im just drawing things in paint.net atm and its very annoying

[wind spade]

what do you want different from what the calculator gives you?

[snow vigil]

the only thing the calculator gives me is a headache

[fierce cypress]

i think you can use this - i haven't used it myself though

https://autumnfallstudios.itch.io/salt

[rustic patio]

Looks great to me

[snow vigil]

i tried reorganizing the nodes so that its not as messy it still makes 0 sense, in some places splitter split resources in ways that i just can not imagine

[wind spade]

have you tried any other tools?

[snow vigil]

Ive only tried calculator to plan my factories

and it didnt prove useful at all

ill try whatever tomato just suggested, see if that works

[wind spade]

there are other calculators, listed in #welcome or here in pins

[fierce cypress]

https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Online_tools

[snow vigil]

But i dont want a calculator

I just want a way to plan things manually

[wind spade]

there's a great planning tool called Satisfactory 🤔

[wind spade]

splitters will split 50-50 unless one output is backed up, so if you see some uneven split, that means one side will fill and then it'll work

however SCIM places splitters in very random positions indeed, not a big fan of that

[snow vigil]

well thats really good to know but its such an easy way out

its like doing maths with an incredibly advanced calculator

no fun at all

[frosty owl]

||Totally not just critizicing the competition ||

I agree

[cinder silo]

I wonder what this great planning tool is 😅 j/k , man your work is way appreciated I assure you.

[wind spade]

I meant the game itself

if you want to lay down factories to see how it looks, no tool can do it better than the game itself

[frosty owl]

To be fair, if you can't even imagine how to achieve the split, isn't an "advanced calculator" the right tool for the job?

[snow vigil]

Well now i know how to achieve the split

and the right tool is my brain the only thing im lacking is i cant really imagine blueprints and see the vision or whatever

just wanted to draw things and this salt tool is amazing for that i feel like

uh its a bit weird though

[frosty owl]

Personally, I still find a big slab of concrete in-game the best layout tool to plan my designs.
I may change idea if SaLT had tools for overlapping belts, but it's still very WIP

[snow vigil]

i can tell that its wip

[wind spade]

what "planning" do you want to do?
do you want to calculate how much you need of which building?
or do you want to plan where each building goes when while already knowing number of buildings needed?

[snow vigil]

the latter

i can do the numbers myself thats like half the fun for me

[wind spade]

yeah, then go ingame, that's the best option

[snow vigil]

alright

[wind spade]

(you can make a no-cost, all-unlocked save to plan)

[snow vigil]

oh i havent thought of that

thank you very much for the help

[cinder silo]

I have thrown ficsit foundations around to use them to plan with, now I just paint the floor since knowing machine dimensions helps a lot, and the factory hazard markings look cool after the fact.

[frosty owl]

I think it'd be "fair" to use a flying mod to help with the planning too.
The hoverpack CAN be very limiting in that regard (compared to having a top-down view like in online tools)

"Fair" as in: non-cheaty (yes, very subjective, but I think you get my point)

[cinder silo]

Hoverpack is definitely limiting, but you can build what could be considered a kind of planning arena ahead of time I guess, similar to what I did to this blueprint designer but bigger:

[snow vigil]

oh that looks amazing

[cinder silo]

The overhead walkways contain power so you can fully 3d float around the whole thing, you could build something bigger specifically for tossing stuff down to see if it works.

[frosty owl]

If anyone has some time to waste on factory planning, I could use some brainstorming...
I'm making this sort of "omni factory" thing, that should produce all items needed for storage plus 90 GW of Uranium power (7.2 UFR) and 1.8 PFRs/min
https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=kYyUS0Tqtt3M1Kjiv1Qn

Atm, these are the parameters I managed to set:

• All productions involving radioactive items will be in dedicated buildings (one for Uranium, one for Plutonium). Their location in the overall factory is irrelevant as they just need a few belts for inputs, super-easy (I'll try to keep them where radiation doesn't annoy me, thus probably on some sort of big "balcony")
• Most inputs will come from trucks, some directly from belts, only uranium from Drones.
• It would be nice having a chance to use trucks to move high-throughput items between far-away parts of the factory, if needed (I don't want to create the need, that's wasteful on logistics)

[cinder silo]

Fucking hell that is overwhelming.

[mystic moon]

That's worse than my factory that just does everything for storage!!!

Why do you want a power plant there as well?

[cinder silo]

I have this ahead still, so basic but I want the SE shit re-automated: https://u6.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=C6IwmTgBJmztrM8lSAFE

[mystic moon]

Just irradiation it for giggles?

[frosty owl]

What I'm struggling with: I can't decide on a rational way to split up the production into multiple buildings. I could do something like "refining building, assembly building, manufacturing building" and further split them by item-type if they're too big, but I find that would look very boring.
Dividing the production by item-type instead (eg: HMF factory, Computer Factory) would make the inputs for each building very confusing, especially the ores...

Maybe I should aim for a combination of the two...?

Sorry if it's a lot of text, I'm having a hit of a hard time wrapping my head around how to tackle this exactly and can't quite explain it all too easily :/

[frosty owl]

Yes
||I wanna make a factory that can support me building megafsctories and Nuclear is one of my favorite production processes to deal with, so... :) ||

[frosty owl]

No, I'll actually load-balance and stuff, so radiation will be very controlled and limited to some specific areas

[cinder silo]

Radiation can be so heavily controlled it's unreal 😄

[frosty owl]

Examples of production division I thought of:
I could split (nearly) all production lines between stuff "for storage" (that will leave the factory to reach storage) and stuff needed "locally"..

[mystic moon]

It think the third idea is better actually, and then just transport between buildings with skybridges and trucks
It may also be nice to do multiple similar items per building, ex. comps and supercomputers, frames, etc

That way you don't have 33 small buildings but maybe 10 larger ones

[frosty owl]

Ideally, I like multi-product buildings a lot more than single-product ones. I try to avoid the latter, if possible/not too cumbersome

Thanks for the feedback, btw. I realize it's a confusing blob of text and ideas that I'm unloading here, but just ||attempting to|| explaining it really helps me out clarifying the situation to myself. Then getting help on top is just that much more welcome

[cinder silo]

With the way you build, you could have a self sorting floor underneath or even mixed in with your belt runs between floors for storage at one end.

[frosty owl]

That's a detail that I'd like to figure out after having decided how to divide the production (which affects how I shape the building - > make my floors and logistics)

[cinder silo]

The reason all my stuff ends up in separate buildings is I build , well to be honest, re-build lol, from the top down and actually centred on the storage as my start point.

[snow vigil]

If i split a 5 unit per minute belt into two how do i find out which one has 3 units per minute

can i tell just by looking at it?

because im not sure

[wind spade]

none. Both have 2.5/min until one side backs up

[mystic moon]

It's 2.5 per

[snow vigil]

:\

alright thanks

[prime horizon]

I cant get the oil flowing, any ideas? I even got a pump

[opaque oak]

Shouldn't need a pump, just some bugged pipe connection

Find first pipe segment that isn't full and replace it.

Possibly flush the whole piping from segment near the refineries to see that better.

[prime horizon]

I'm getting oil trough, but not nearly fast enough.

[opaque oak]

If the math is correct, it takes some time for the piping and building input buffers to fill.

If you have everything on already.

[prime horizon]

okay, yea I do have everything on

[opaque oak]

And the pipes don't fill until all input buffers are full first.

[prime horizon]

Might have been impatient then

[cinder silo]

The oil line looks level enough as well 😦

[opaque oak]

You can make that happen faster by disconnecting an outputs from the refineries, so that their outputs fill up and they stop producing.

[prime horizon]

alright

[cinder silo]

Once the thing is full it should produce ok.

[prime horizon]

how level does the pipe need to be? Its slightly upwards

[opaque oak]

The Oil Extractor provides 10m of headlift.

So the pipe can go 10m above the oil extractor outlet before you need a separate pump.

[tropic hawk]

i assume you mean radioactive items. and why do you have primary production for power?

[prime horizon]

tysm

[frosty owl]

Yes and what do you mean?

[opaque oak]

The Build menu blurbs on the right show those headlift numbers.

[tropic hawk]

do all purification/fluid based processes in one building, production in another, final production in the final building and for your usecase, nuclear production in two buildings far away.

[frosty owl]

What do you put into the "production" and "final production" categories?

[tropic hawk]

you are producing nuclear power as part of your 'omni-factory' instead of doing something like "I have access to extra coal and sulfur, im gonna make a compacted coal plant" or "my plastic/rubber production is making unused HOR, i'm gonna convert it to fuel/turbofuel"

[tropic hawk]

final production is when a product is put into a machine for the last time, production is everything else

[frosty owl]

I don't want to use any other power source than Uranium power, which "needs" it's own production chain as I don't like to have it depend on other productions (I may do the other way around; eg: excess allu from plut. processing used to make spare batteries)

[tropic hawk]

every power source needs its own production chain, why specifically Nuclear?

[frosty owl]

Got it 👌
Thank you, I'll consider it I might end up doing a mix of very different "solutions"

[cinder silo]

Plutonium is an option, I saw you don't go full ham on uranium so you could get away with outputting the waste to a separate tomb that wouldn't be full even after 5000 hours of play.

[frosty owl]

Because it uses the least resources for the most power.
And whole it's true that every power source needs its own production chain, nuclear is the only one that can't run solely as byproduct of other productions.
Eg: have too much fuel? Set up a fuel Gen powerplant. Have too much ECR, oscillators, Sulphur, Quickwire, and Beacons (these especially are used only for nuclear atm)? Add some uranium and setup a nuclear powerplant

[tropic hawk]

Where did you get the analysis that concluded Nuclear power was the most resource efficient power source?

[frosty owl]

I don't plan on using Plutonium for power at all.
If I will, it will be after I maxed Uranium power and still need more GW for some reason (extreme overclock?)

[cinder silo]

Speaking of overclock, it's probably worth running the reactors at 200% now they will actually be dead on 200% so you can build more compact without them trying to do 200.10004% or some stupid shit like they used to.

[frosty owl]

I think it's pretty natural to conclude that from a game-logic perspective and just getting familiar with recipes, but setting up any comparison with SFTools can make the situation quite clear.

Example: 90 GW of Uranium power can be obtained using ~1k of various ores and ~100 oil/min
90 GW of Diluted Fuel power take "a lot more" oil (can't recall how many hundreds)

I use 90 GW as a unit because that equals 300 Uranium/min via alt recipes

[cinder silo]

I did 133gw on turbofuel, and that took a shit ton to setup including half the maps sulphur.

[tropic hawk]

right, let me do the resource analysis in MW/resource point. Hold please

[frosty owl]

I'm not sure what you're requesting me to do by "holding" 😅
I answer to pings but I don't often "stay" in the chatroom, if this is what you're referring to

[tropic hawk]

it was a reference to LGIO

[frosty owl]

Whosh

[oblique notch]

I'm curious as well now, but since uranium, while yes you need it for nuclear pasta... isn't really needed once the Space Elevator is complete other than for nuclear power, right? I'm guessing that sways the weighting in a subjective way. (Unless I'm forgetting something? Nuke nobelisks but eh.

[tropic hawk]

Nuclear Pasta is made with PCCs and copper. no uranium

[oblique notch]

Lol. Tells you how often I've done that chain.

[frosty owl]

Funnest one there is. Objective fact

[cinder silo]

I was wondering for a moment, when did they add uranium to nuclear pasta 🤣

[frosty owl]

I could make sense as an alt recipe

[cinder silo]

But but I got no uranium!

[frosty owl]

Then no alt pasta for you. You'll starve

I wonder what sort of thesis is Nemo writing...

[tropic hawk]

Coal Power:

Max Power Output: 332520 MW
Resource Intake:
- 6840 Sulfur/min (70376.76 RePo/min)
- 11700 Oil/min (70375.5 RePo/min)
- 30900 Coal/min (70390.2 Repo/min)
- 199512 Water/min (0 RePo/min)
- Resource Points/Min TOTAL: 211142.46 RePo/min

• 1.575 MW/RePo

Oil Power:

Max Power Output: 546750 MW
Resource Intake:
- 6840 Sulfur/min (70376.76 RePo/min)
- 6840 Coal/min (15581.52 RePo/min)
- 11700 Oil/min (70375.5 RePo/min)
- 31200 Water/min (0 RePo/min)
- Resource Points/min TOTAL: 156333.78 RePo/min

• 3.736 MW/RePo

Nuclear Power:

Max Power Output: 630000 MW
Resource Intake:
- 2100 Sulfur/min (21606.9 RePo/min)
- 2100 Uranium/min (70379.4 RePo/min)
- 7595.28 Caterium Ore/min (48419.91 RePo/min)
- 1680 Raw Quartz/min (11261.04 RePo/min)
- 2234.4 Copper Ore/min (5449.7016 RePo/min)
- 718.2 Iron Ore/min (718.2 RePo/min)
- 582.12 Oil/min (3501.4518 RePo/min)
- Resource Points/min TOTAL: 161336.6034

• 3.905 MW/RePo

[tropic hawk]

I actually am working on a college research paper on what the most resource/MW chain is for wasteless nuclear

[oblique notch]

Did you use the same weighting for resources the wiki does?

[tropic hawk]

Some disclaimers: all resource weights were rounded to the thousands place, and nuclear power is only uranium fuel rods and not accounting for waste processing

[tropic hawk]

I used the same one that SFTools does

[oblique notch]

Which I think is the same, yeah

[tropic hawk]

uses world cap of iron as a baseline, and then extrapolates there

[oblique notch]

Yeah

[tropic hawk]

but technically uranium is the most resource efficient, but oil is not far behind.

@frosty owl You were correct, sorry for doubting you, but I wanted to run the numbers myself

[oblique notch]

Put together a graph of that calculation at different mw levels?

I wonder if that would change anything

Like you show max mws possible, but if you're trying to produce 10gw... is it maybe different?

(This kind of math is not my strong suit lol)

[tropic hawk]

not really. I did the max capacity, which would scale with MW draw so if you wanted a different MW, the resources would shrink accordingly (or maybe doing RePo/MW might show a different result, but I have to go to a MicroEc lecture rn, maybe later i will run those numbers)

[oblique notch]

Yeah I was wondering if it was a linear scale or not. Cool, good luck at the lecture

[frosty owl]

My sarcasm check is failing over this statement

[marsh radish]

I did a critical literary analysis of Skyrim for school, once, so I'd believe it

[frosty owl]

That can be a bit of a misleading point though. While the MW/RePo value isn't too far off, Oil power consumes ALL oil and Sulphur, Nuclear consumes "only" a portion of a lot of ores, not exhausting any of them
In other words: Nuclear leaves more leeway to add more production chains with the leftover ores/fluids

[frosty owl]

I'm not saying it's impossible to believe, I just don't know wether to actually take it seriously or not xD

[tropic hawk]

I am actually serious about that

[frosty owl]

Just asking. I don't mean to make fun of your seriousness

[tropic hawk]

that is for maximum draw however, though I am working on a back analysys of RePo/MW to see if that changes the general picture

[frosty owl]

I don't think it's worth trying to extend the example out of "max power"... I feel that different power goals would give quite different results

... Actually, as long as recipes don't change (which... Why should they, if one wants efficiency?), what I just said might be completely baseless

[tropic hawk]

RePo/MW Numbers
Coal

0.635 RePo/MW

Oil

0.286 RePo/MW

Nuclear

0.256 RePo/MW

yeah, looks like Nuclear still wins in terms of resources spent per MW generated

[tropic hawk]

also for the record, Max oil power would be over 2k generators

Links to all the Layouts of max power generated
Coal: https://beta.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=mZPYrkPOldAmmIq2LqTA
Oil: https://beta.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=lAqFsfl5M7iJMSXsThU0
Nuclear: https://beta.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=NHOA4aucEwqYSAXfii17

[frosty owl]

Totally not one of the reasons why I prefer nuclear that I think is so obvious I often tend to just forget about

[tropic hawk]

nuclear is 252 reactors, which will take quite some time to place

[frosty owl]

I'll take that any day over 2k generators

[fierce ruin]

Me who built both max nuclear and max oil gens

[manic fjord]

Can someone help me with train signals.

Currently i have a path signal for EVERY entrance and exit rail. Just for testing.

And the train in the train station looks to be waiting for my train to move.

[opaque oak]

Then everything is same block basically

The train reserves a path to next block signal, through all the path signals.

[opaque oak]

Base is to use blocks for everything, and use paths in specific places.

[barren elm]

Never use path signals unless you have a specific need for them, which under normal circumstances, you should never have

[manic fjord]

Yeah but i need them here since its a 2 lane railway that splits to a train station

i dont want the train coming out of the train station to hit trains coming from the railway

[opaque oak]

And why are all the rails dual-direction?

You want one in each direction.

[barren elm]

Yeah you need to pick either LHD or RHD and stick with it

[manic fjord]

I have RHD. And i made it so trains cant go left side without wanting to go the opposite

[barren elm]

You don't have RHD in that screenshot

I'd start by making it RHD then

[manic fjord]

RHD as in "Right hand drive" right?

[barren elm]

Actually I'd start by getting rid of the path signals entirely, then putting down RHD block signals

[manic fjord]

Just so we are talking the same langauge

[barren elm]

Yeah

[opaque oak]

You have two signals on each spot of each rail, making them all bi-directional.

[barren elm]

Don't worry about trains crashing, it cannot happen if there's signals

[opaque oak]

You only need single block signal at each point you want a signal for a specific rail.

[manic fjord]

That was the problem

Thanks. <3

But now i have a new problem....

Train station Train has proceeded, but now my other train waits for like 3 min and then goes out of the crossing...

Is that just railway blocks stretching?

[barren elm]

That's the path signals doing their thing

And that's why you shouldn't use them

[manic fjord]

So should i just use a stop signal in the crossing?

[barren elm]

Just Block signals

[manic fjord]

👍

[barren elm]

Contrary to their name, they don't "block" trains, rather they create blocks of tracks for trains that only 1 train can occupy

[rustic patio]

@reef cove

lets say you want to transport 1150 items/minute with a train

you would need a round trip time between 103.036 and 834.783 seconds

at a stacksize of 500

however i want to transport rubber, so i adjust the stack size to 200

and i can see that i need a round trip time between 103.036 and 333.913

the lower bound has not decreased because it is limited by the red line, the belt speed

the upper bound has decreased, because it is limited by the train capacity, the purple line

does it make sense? @reef cove

[meager turret]

i know i know probably everbody has something like this already but if not feel free to use it

(Spreadsheet with all resource numbers)

[tropic hawk]

Honestly online calculators have a lot better UI/UX than most spreadsheets

[rustic patio]

@reef cove

[tropic hawk]

You have an equation for this?

[rustic patio]

desmos.com/calculator/srhbandddu

S is stack size
R is reload time

i use it by adding a line where i want my desired throughput, then i check min and max time to achieve it and i aim for the one in the middle

that way if it goes faster than expected or slower i have a little bit of buffer

[tropic hawk]

Ty

[rustic patio]

np!

[zinc crater]

@ocean sluice reply here about constructors for math

[prisma kraken]

Sweet, you figured it out!

[ocean sluice]

i presonally use 600s tbh

also use when freight is full or empty

[ocean sluice]

577.66 x3 screws

[zinc crater]

setup a 3 to 4 load balancer (or grab a blueprint online for one) then run the belts to the 4 assemblers, and over/unclock them all to ask for whatever the 4 screw lines end up being.

[prisma kraken]

don't grab a bp online, figure out how to do it on your own, learning such things is sort of part of the game

[zinc crater]

So is the blueprint designer and ability to share them?

Also note (or grab....)

2 options presented to their problem.

[prisma kraken]

nod, i'm just advocating that people learn how to solve problems rather than grab a solution, give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime 🙂

[ocean sluice]

this is what i came up with
its a overflow load balancer with 3 inputs

[ocean sluice]

that was my plan.. (don't trust sussy websites)

[zinc crater]

SO who eats the fish you catch while teaching them how to fish?

[prisma kraken]

me, lol

you actually don't need much in the way of proper load balancer constructs in satisfactory, i've put many hours into the game, and truly, i can count on one hand the number of perfect balancers i've needed

things like a 3-4 split or 8-6 split i don't really count in that all though, i'm talking things like a 2-5 split

i don't think you even ever need a 2-5 split anymore, tbh

that was only useful in nuclear pre-U7, now you can just overclock the reactors to do a perfect power-of-two split

[wind spade]

balancers 🤢

[prisma kraken]

i see a lot of people new to satisfactory actually overthink balancing, having come from factorio

[zinc crater]

in what way?

[prisma kraken]

its a mistake i sorta made when i first started with the game too, things just flow on belts when there's not back-pressure

like i remember being tripped up by what would happen if i pumped 120 screws into an rotor assembler which only takes 100, and like overthought it

[zinc crater]

oh like that...okay yeah that makes sense

[prisma kraken]

i can't even describe how/why that tripped me up now

[wind spade]

in factorio you balance because of variable input and output

and you don't balance for machines in factorio either

[zinc crater]

eventually though there comes a point where you need to make balancers because of scale of build though.
like...600 iron ingots/min coming from 2 freight cars...4-5 balancer feeds 20 machines, 5 groups of 4 balanced with mk4 belts

[wind spade]

you only balance several belts if something

[prisma kraken]

i don't have a lot of experience with factorio

[wind spade]

why would you need balancers for that?

[prisma kraken]

so i can't really compare & contrast

[wind spade]

each platform into a set of machines that needs exactly as much as that platform provides. Easy, simple, no balancing needed

[zinc crater]

because the math for the recipe works out for 5 groups of 4 smelters overclocked to 200%

not overclocked sorry im thinking of a different thing i did the other day with 200% overclocking..

[wind spade]

there's never a need to balance in satisfactory. The thing that comes closest to "need to balance" is nuclear setup to prevent radiation stacking from manifolds

[zinc crater]

^ that's a 5 group system outputting 3 belts of 200ingots/min

but it's fed from the 4 outputs of the freight cars

[prisma kraken]

i don't see a balancer in there

i'd call that an injected manifold

[zinc crater]

its under here

[wind spade]

the problem lies in "I have X groups on one side and Y groups on other side". Why not have the group count the same

[zinc crater]

because sometimes you can't get the group count the same because of the recipe you're using or plan to use.

[wind spade]

underclocking exists

you can always get any number of groups

[prisma kraken]

as do smart spiltters

[wind spade]

smart splitters are not even needed for that 🤷‍♂️

[prisma kraken]

oh i know, but for dealing with overflow, the companion problem to underflow

you can balance things between two lines by taking the overflow of one and merging it into the other

its much more compact to do than a balancer

[zinc crater]

you can do an awful lot of different things in Satisfactory

[wind spade]

or have two lines both go into set of machines exactly as needed by the amount of items on that line

[prisma kraken]

that's not often possible with trains

[wind spade]

it's totally possible

train is basically a belt

[prisma kraken]

you're relying on the consumer's exerting back-pressure

[wind spade]

what comes into platform on one end comes out of the platform on the other end

(as long as your trains aren't running full)

(and if they are, just add more trains or more cars)

[prisma kraken]

yeah, its best not to run train cars at capacity

[prisma kraken]

or trains

[wind spade]

more trains or more cars
🤔

[prisma kraken]

doh, lol

[wind spade]

but yeah you just consider train (or truck or drone) the same as belt, it moves stuff from A to B and it has some kind of limit of how much it can transfer. But then you don't care about balancing the lines at all, since you can just use each line separately

[prisma kraken]

train stations and ISC's are a little different though, if you use both outputs from them

i've never quite figured out how they prioritize their outputs

[arctic willow]

theories abound

some suggest they favour the first output belt built

[wind spade]

it's semi-random

there's no official priority

[arctic willow]

good case for a 2x2 balancer 😃

[wind spade]

nah

never use them as balancers

[arctic willow]

i meant on the output

[wind spade]

same thing

[prisma kraken]

i just output on one belt, run a second one and inject if needed

i think i've only really needed to do that ONCE in probably ~2000 hrs since U4

[arctic willow]

i've only recently started messing around with trains, so i built a 2to3 balancer to split the outputs from the source ISC buffer evenly between the three platforms

[prisma kraken]

see, on the production side, things naturally result in numbers that either end up as 450 or 600 for goods to ship via train, and i just pipe each module into a separate car

easy peasy

[wind spade]

ISCs have only usage in storage or in buffering before/after train stations

[prisma kraken]

recycled petro is 450, aluminum is 600

god knows why you'd do iron via train, and then steel and copper are 600 too

sometimes the answer is to build smaller and more modular

[arctic willow]

i had the (probably very stupid) idea of hauling all the caterium ore on the map to a single site to refine it

built all 460 refineries but the train stations will be a mess 😛

[prisma kraken]

turn caterium into ingots as close to the miners as you can

you have a 1-3 or 1-2 (if using the pure recipe) pulldown on it, and the ore and ingots both stack to 100

[wind spade]

satisfactory's approach is generally "build a factory near nodes it needs and ship final product to storage"

[prisma kraken]

i meant 3-1 or 2-1 but i think you understood

it seriously isn't difficult to just drop a smelter array near a mine and stick ingots on a train

your framerate will also thank you for decentralizing things 🙂

[wind spade]

stick final product onto train

[vapid gorge]

eh - it's not stupid, it just requires more train cars. And depending on your computer and what else you're doing on location might put a strain on resources.

[prisma kraken]

um... I'll use trains for stuff like petro and aluminum, as well as things like sulfur and nitrogen, either high volume or long distance

[vapid gorge]

Like if what you want is a central caterium refinery? Go for it. It might not be the simplest solution but it's not unreasonable

[oblique notch]

Factorio also lends itself to balancing because you want to process as fast /efficient as possible... because ore deposits run out. So you're always seeking out new deposits and bringing ore to a central point - only makes sense, no point in rebuilding a factory when ore runs out.

But in SF ore doesn't run out. The absolute only limit to production amount is time. If you wanted you could complete t8 with 1 machine per part produced. It be an age, but it's possible.

But since time is infinite, and resources are infinite, then the very small (in comparison to infinite) start up time to manifolds vers perfect splits is in effect, nothing.

Vs Factorio, where that could mean the difference your power plants starving or not when bringing in ore from a distance. Which would actually set you back. As long as you have enough miners in SF this is never an issue. As long as your production meets or exceeds your consumption, this is never an issue - because it is the same amount over infinite time

[prisma kraken]

I've done so before, and its not a mistake to do

i mean i even did quickwire in the same factory, and it was pushing something like 4500 quickwire/min out

[wind spade]

also, factorio has variable input and output

[prisma kraken]

the thing is... what are you going to use that all for?

i didn't make use of half of it and it was kind of a waste to build

[tropic hawk]

Using what? quickwire?

[prisma kraken]

yeah, you need gobs of it late-game

but belting quickwire around is like belting screws around

you need 3-4 belts worth

[tropic hawk]

Sometimes.

[prisma kraken]

maybe even 5

i find it more efficient to have an ample supply of caterium and copper ingots around

and just be able to use them in smaller factories using the fused alts to get to where i need to hit with quickwire/wire production

speaking of, tonights project... 25 ECR's/min, ugg

all i have to say about that is thank god for blueprints

also, just as a quick question... does anyone know of an underground cave in the titan forest near the 6 quartz nodes overlooking the swamp where a water extractor can be placed?

[oblique notch]

That too.

[prisma kraken]

there's water in the canyon water wells and a pool near the wells, but i'm wondering if there's a secret squirrel spot closer

[oblique notch]

Why belt anything not made in a manufacturer any further than to thr building next door or the next floor up?

[vapid gorge]

some manufacturer items are low volume

I'll be droning in Super Computers and HMF for example

[prisma kraken]

i tend to sushi-belt low volume things

[vapid gorge]

over 5 km and mountains?

[oblique notch]

I tend to use mk1 belts for low amount thinga

Because it looks cool to watch items slowly go by.

Becky had the right idea. 778. 779. 780.