math-and-meta

[wicked tinsel]

you are forced to use the internal buffer way, not solve it in creative way

[oblique hollow]

if there were no large internal buffer, thats another logistical problem to solve

which actually sounds more fun

[frosty owl]

No, not a delay: take a refinery that outputs 15 ingots at once at a rate of 60/min. Without buffering, a machine along a manifold fed by such a refinery would starve 4 times per minute since it can only take as much as needed for a couple production cycles (take 2 items, let 8 through)
Note: pure iron refineries are a good example for this

[cinder silo]

The internal buffer does save building a can above/below or just nearby each machine.

[wicked tinsel]

imagine it like this:
factory A needs 100 items / 10 minutes
factory B needs 500 items / 10 minutes
overflow exist

you make a train source, it makes 700 items / 10 minutes
train goes to A, deposists 100 items
train goes to B, deposists 500 items
train goes to overflow, reposists 100 remaining items

[oblique hollow]

again, taking enough for 2 cycles is enough. you just need an external buffer for the rest

you put a container after the refinery. done

the manifold still manifolds

[wicked tinsel]

fundamentally, nothing changes logically

[oblique hollow]

you only shift the logistical problem from the machines to the player

[wicked tinsel]

yep

and makes the intermediate buffer buildings actually useful

[oblique hollow]

even Sev would welcome this

[wicked tinsel]

currently, there is no reason to have buffers anywhere except for end storage

[oblique hollow]

it doesnt break balancers or manifolds with exact input in anyway

if demand and supply match, we all know, it works

[frosty owl]

You're sending too many messages for me to adress with the little time I have at hand, but your proposal forces to build systems so that items are supposed to back up to work.
(Now I'm off for now)

[wicked tinsel]

well yes, your system does exactly this

just uses machines internal buffer instead of solving it explicitly

[oblique hollow]

ita ok, ill draw an image later

a misunderstanding for sure

[frosty owl]

A sigle machine is not a system. Having a system that allows backing up is very different from having individual machines backing up

[wicked tinsel]

its not tho

[oblique hollow]

i guarantee you there is no issue

[frosty owl]

How do you sushi a system that backs up?

[oblique hollow]

its just hard to visualize

[frosty owl]

If you can't: they are different

[wicked tinsel]

sushi system work same way as before

[oblique hollow]

but sushi is about precise numbers, right?

[wicked tinsel]

you just dont have full stack of items sitting in machines

that you probably had to preload manually coz stack size != sushi demand rate

[oblique hollow]

nothing changes your sushifold just fills faster

the production per minute is unchanged

[wicked tinsel]

in fact, this improves sushi manifolds massively

imagine you want to manifold encased beams, you need to fill each machine with concrete first or it wont work

with new way, you dont need to, it just works

in current way, during startup, input consumption ratio is 100/500, and when it works, its 4/5

so obviously, you cant just feed it proper ratio, it would deposit too much into first machines and break

[oblique hollow]

please analyze this image and then list any concerns

then apply to sushifold

mind you, machine output buffers stays at stack size

[wicked tinsel]

visually, instead of having items go at 780 every 10 minutes and then 9 minutes of empty belt, you should have items constantly flowing at 78/min

[oblique hollow]

Buffer:2 means it stores 2 items maximum for input

[wicked tinsel]

output could probably also be limited to 1-2 cycles worth of items tbh

but its less important in reality

[oblique hollow]

yeah

it can be any size

[wicked tinsel]

for record, for this whole thing to work properly, game would also need ability to limit storage building's size

[river night]

keeping output big helps avoid problems as you still have at least a buffer on one side, and it has no impact on anything else

[wicked tinsel]

like factorio does with boxes

[wicked tinsel]

in theory, if you are not consuming output fast enough, with small buffers, your machines will turn yellow very fast

[oblique hollow]

eh technically not immediately needed

[wicked tinsel]

if output is unlimited, they still need to proceed whole stack before turning yellow

and ultimately, that is somewhat a goal of this change, so that stuff enters final state faster

currently it can take hours before problems surface

building is yellow? is your setup bad or is just something still filling up?

[oblique hollow]

the adjustable buffer could very well also just be a general storage container size reduction, which is kinda expected

if the setup is small, the machines buffer it all

larger? the producers buffer it
even larger? use a container

like, a container that is half size should suffice tbh

[upbeat tide]

Plan thoughts? Looking to use my 800 a min battery supply.

Currently, thinking of:
-600 for super computers

• 100 for mag field gens
• 100 drone fuel

[oblique hollow]

seems fair so far. 600 for Supers? How many per minute are you making

[upbeat tide]

60 a min via super state alt

Most likely unless I change recipe direction

And some of the super comps would go to make assembly directors, maybe 10. Rest storage/sunk

[fierce ruin]

How can i use tractors to transport coal?

OH IM STUPID

WAIT I JUST REALIZED

[upbeat tide]

I would not use vehicles to move raw materials for coal plants, personally. Better to build near the coal nodes / water source. Removes some possible complexity

[median heath]

@round hill

[round hill]

Why thank you

I am surprised that they aren't too tall

I wonder how they are going to solve the coal generator problem or if they even will solve it before the Tuesday update

[upbeat tide]

Which coal gen issue?

[magic island]

basically two possible ways:
-shorten the smokestack on the actual model
-fudge the clearance so that the top of the smokestack doesn't count (either in general or just inside the designer)

[median heath]

It doesn't fit in the Blueprinter.

[upbeat tide]

Oh yea its a 40m tall structure right?

[median heath]

Shorten on actual model would be my vote tbh.

[median heath]

I believe so, yeah.

[upbeat tide]

Yea agreed there. Bp maker will be very useful for those early builds.

As long as they put the unlock early that is

[magic island]

they're taller than refineries cuz of that smokestack, even though the main volume isn't as high iirc

[upbeat tide]

Yea refineries are like 31m tall

[median heath]

Given Snutt's saying they "want you to be able to use Coal Gens in them" I would suspect a T3-4 unlock.

[round hill]

From a naïve programmatic standpoint (aka I work in software for a living but I haven't seen the code for this game nor what's involved for modding it), the easiest hack I could see is that since they already have a system that supports multiple "levels" of bounding boxes with the full clearance (blue), soft clearance (yellow), and hard clearance (red), they could just add another level that inherits from either the soft clearance or hard clearance by default but then allows them to add in exceptions where needed like making the coal generator's clearance box for this new level down to 31.5m instead of 40m. A terrible hack probably but it would work in the short term.

Longer term solution would be to probably change the coal generator model size to fit.

[median heath]

Just keep coding we can fix it later 😉

[wind spade]

I assume they also don't want the model to stick out of the bp box

[snow dove]

what pains me is some people like this style

[round hill]

Software has only two ages. It is either aborted before it's even really born or it lasts orders of magnitude longer than it was supposed to.

[round hill]

Look, sometimes we live in a world where everything is so cookie cutter and the same that we just want something different, even if it means accepting something more flawed

[snow dove]

it’s just that bricks are meant to be used in a simple repeated pattern, that kind of wall is for large stones!

[median heath]

Program a cookie cutter with non-cookie cutter code. 😉

[round hill]

The result is buggy software that turns out to make perfect apple crumble, and is therefore considered a feature and rebranded

[barren elm]

Yeah I doubt it's a programming issue

If you watch the video there's some kind of custom collider that checks whether a building overlaps with the blueprint box's boundaries

They must've made that collider recently and so they'd have had every opportunity to make an exception for the coal gen

So it's almost certainly just an artistic choice of "the coal gen is just too big"

[median heath]

So they are un-doing said choice in your opinion with their stance on "we want you to be able to fit it"?

[barren elm]

Coal gen is one of the earliest models they made, could well be that their philosophies have changed

Personally I think it'd be neat if the smoke stack was dynamic in size (up to the current level) based on whats above it, kinda like how smelter smoke behaves differently if there's a foundation above it

[wanton nacelle]

Hey, I just finished a net-zero carbon playthrough using just biomass and geothermal. I'm thinking about continuing the adventure using biocoal and charcoal mixed with sulfur for compacted coal. Can anyone tell me if it's more efficient to turn the wood to biomass, then biomass to coal, then to compacted, or wood straight to charcoal then compacted coal? It seems that the charcoal method is dramatically more efficient, but I got burned on the liquid biofuel facility I built and want to be sure other people's math supports mine.

[median heath]

My opinion that Biocoal and Charcoal shouldn't exist as recipes aside:

Charcoal is a better conversion, so use Wood -> Charcoal.
For Biocoal, best conversion will be hunting. Remains -> Protein -> Biomass -> Biocoal.

[arctic willow]

okay, i'll bite... why shouldn't they exist?

[median heath]

Not getting into that.

[wanton nacelle]

Lol it's sevrahn, dude. If you're not wrecking the planet you're not playing lol

Thanks, tho, that confirms my own math

[median heath]

Where did I say you shouldn't wreck the planet?

[wanton nacelle]

No, when I first mentioned I was starting a carbon-neutral playthrough you had much the same sentiment "Possible-laborious-shouldn't be allowed"

[median heath]

?

[wanton nacelle]

But you know what they say....code is law

[median heath]

I don't recall said conversation.
Possible and laborious do sound like my words.
I would question the "shouldn't be allowed" part though.

[wanton nacelle]

Alright, well, allowed or not, it's done. I'm just trying to figure out a carbon-neutral way to prepare for update 7 / new project tiers. I already have a battery bigger than god, but my present plan is to make a battery bigger than 2 gods and charge it up with geothermal surplus and compacted coal.

[uncut sigil]

Is there a reason you're excluding nuclear?

[wanton nacelle]

Because it's dirty and nasty and bad for living things? And because I did it in my first playthrough and felt like it eliminated interesting choices rather than created them?

[round hill]

Are there any other known buildables that currently don't fit inside of the 32x32x32 designer limits besides the coal generator and nuclear power plant?

[uncut sigil]

Well, you mentioned carbon neutral, not waste free 🤷

[wanton nacelle]

True....And I'll resort to nuclear if needed.

But thus far, it wasn't needed

[median heath]

Space Elevator

[snow dove]

this first sentence is entirely incorrect

[wanton nacelle]

But my experience was that was cranky and technical to start up and broke the game once I did it

[round hill]

How the heck did I forget about that?!

[uncut sigil]

Particle accelerator won't fit either. (just)

[arctic willow]

nuc plant is too big as well

[wanton nacelle]

I no longer had to even consider energy consumption because plutonium made so much energy I could just overclock the planet

Which reduced the game to petting Doggos and hoping for slugs lol

[snow dove]

“besides coal generator and nuclear power plant”

[median heath]

Imagine petting lizard doggos instead of shooting them..

[arctic willow]

i'm on a train, the internet's rubbish and i'm tired, i missed that one 🤦‍♂️

[uncut sigil]

The Geothermal generator doesn't fit either. No blueprinting energy huts.

[wanton nacelle]

Try it sometime! If you need blood for the Blood God, there's plenty of spitters about to soak up bullets. Well, there are if you take care of the planet as you build

[median heath]

I'm not here to take care of the planet.

Primary Objective: Complete Project Assembly.
Secondary Objective: Extinction of Lizard-Based Lifeforms.

[uncut sigil]

Embrace the hierarchy. Enslave the doggos as Ficsit enslaved you

[median heath]

I volunteered.

[wanton nacelle]

Lol those meta-goals certainly make the game more fun!

[barren elm]

I'm no chemist but wouldn't mining limestone make you not carbon neutral

Actually how do you make steel during a run like that

[wanton nacelle]

Well, you could make steel using biocoal, but I just used regular coal. I just didn't make it a power source.

[arctic willow]

i'm presuming you can't blueprint buildings that need a specific base anyway - "why would you blueprint a mine" is a valid question but i could see mileage in a water extractor / foundations combo

[wanton nacelle]

As for the limestone mining, I don't recall any processes that apply acid to it, so most carbon should stay fixed.

[barren elm]

Fused frames?

Not correcting you here, just yeah, made me curious

[wanton nacelle]

Didn't use fused frames, built the vanilla ones

[uncut sigil]

Well, some people like decorating their various extractors. Blueprinting it along with the miner/generator/whatever would ensure the alignment works relative to the building.

[barren elm]

It'd be hilarious if there was no check for blueprinted miners, yeah

[wanton nacelle]

Oh, the fused MODULAR frame. Let me check my recipes

Nope, no acids applied to concrete in my process

[uncut sigil]

It may not be buildable on the blueprint platform anyway. I imagine it assume flat/foundation/ buildable. But if it doesn't it may open up some options.

makes note to try that first thing tomorrow

[median heath]

Not sure why "acids applied to concrete" is a constraint, but I just scrolled the list and there is only 1 recipe in the entire game that includes both an acid and concrete.

[uncut sigil]

600kg of CO2 per ton of cement in RL. Of course Ficsit may have fixed that seeing as it's made in a constructor somehow...

[snow dove]

it comes out tmr???

[wanton nacelle]

My understanding is that most of the carbon footprint of concrete comes from the energy involved in creating the portland cement. And over time, new concrete absorbs CO2 for a long time, until it essentially becomes rock

Since all my energy was bio/geothermal, I think I kept that production footprint pretty low

[uncut sigil]

#announcements

[snow dove]

awh, only on experimental

[barren elm]

Considering you don't make cement in a smelter in satisfactory, I think it's safe to assume it's made by space magic

[median heath]

Hopping on to set generator clock speeds in advance so nothing cracks tomorrow.

[barren elm]

...why isn't cement made in smelters?

[snow dove]

because reasons

[median heath]

Because that would burn away the fabric the bags are made of.

[barren elm]

I'm not even gonna ask where the bags come from

[median heath]

Same place the plastic containers for Screws come from.

And the wooden spools for Wire.

[wanton nacelle]

Yes, Space Magic creates finished industrial products and simultaneously prevents trees and shrubs from regrowing

[snow dove]

ever think that maybe our mass pollution of the environment has caused the plants to become infertile?

[empty elk]

And how does this affect FICSIT making its octillions?

[snow dove]

doesn't really affect them, so it's fine!

[woven urchin]

epic 🤣

[sand epoch]

What i wonder is if a building/item has had its size changed via areamod or the like.. will the BP keep it..

[glacial hemlock]

I am more concerned about new mods that change the blueprint manager from 4x4x4 to any arbitrary large size.

[median heath]

I foresee many a mod-related crash.

Which makes me feel bad for the devs because people will submit them as legit crash reports...

[frosty owl]

I don't think I misunderstood (sorry for late, IRL being a bother)
What you propose is to leave the evening of distribution to the belt work's buffering or prior buffering instead of machines. To work, the system needs to be able to be put under "pressure": the whole belt must fill up with items, from the first to the last machine, in order to be ready to provide the items the machines require (now needed before another production cycle finishes, just a few seconds).
This naturally leads to to one issue: unless the feed belt is "appropriately full" all the time, one cannot "open" the belt's path to the right of your drawing to let overflow through. Overflow MUST be extracted before the entirety of the system (group of machines) or risk having them starve whenever the input is not stable enough as the belt can't always provide items in time.

@wicked tinsel this is literally an unsushiable situation (unless doing cumbersome and normally unneeded load-balancing). I don't quite understand what part of this isn't clear to you, so I might not be pointing out the best points but: mixed belts (overall) must flow. They aren't to be used in "closed" systems with no overflow connection at the end of the line like McGalleon drew where the entire factory input is allowed to back up. Your proposed change would greatly impact how viable having an "end of the line" overflow would be (and making it outright impossible in some situations, without load-balancing smoothing out inputs).

(Using machines' outputs can provide an easy tool for that 😉)

They do 👍
(Though normal splitters aren't normally used with mixed belts)

[frosty owl]

Only sushi related to science single-input feeds needs precision. Sushifolds can just overflow all excess (AFTER the belt fed all machines!)

[cinder silo]

I never got single input down, all mine is the bog standard overflow.

[frosty owl]

Did you ever actually try?
If interested, I can suggest a few "easy" projects for that

[cinder silo]

My attempts got a few epic logjams.

[frosty owl]

(I'm suddenly realizing the proposal I commented on earlier would pretty much kill single-input feeds altogether )

[frosty owl]

Storytime

[cinder silo]

It started at the motor factory 🤣

I know I screwed up the inputs somehow, I just never could get the feeds timed so the stators beat out the rotors and blocked the whole thing.

Lol wtf name change 😛

[frosty owl]

#satisfactory

[cinder silo]

After a couple of days I tore it all out and went with the standard smart splitter approach with overflow.

[frosty owl]

Was it just a single motor assembler or...?
Sounds like you had issues along the pipeline of rotors, what recipes where you usino there? The iron-only one would be the easiest to deal with un this scenario as it can involve just one input (iron ore/Ingots)

[cinder silo]

Four assemblers.

They jammed up at different amounts to boot.

[frosty owl]

Note: having the machines along the production steps be 1:1 processes or load-balanced instead of manifolded might be REQUIRED in order to get the system to boot up without filling the end machines with one stack of input (thus having to babysit the system during startup)

[frosty owl]

Each having its own production?
Or did you sushi-split a si gle belt between them? :O

4's a big number to start with. Daring 😆

[cinder silo]

I tried to split between them, the whole thing wasn't just a failure, it was a complete fiasco.

At least I didn't try single inputs on the 600ppm battery factory, that would have been a world ending fail.

[frosty owl]

Mhh, I have a feeling the split might be the culprit.
All assemblers should have the same amount of items (+-1) in them if that's done correctly.
Reminder: input must be MK4 max, outputs higher mark than the input, use programmable and set each item you split for to each of the desired outputs

[cinder silo]

Timing the contents of the belt only to have the stators win out was such a swine, that's why I pulled the plug and just did the smart splitter single feed instead.

[frosty owl]

Remember how someone resorted to "flow diverters" for easier dealing with warm-up periods? 😉
And that's considering how they already tried making the production of inputs quite immediate and in sync ^^

[cinder silo]

After the trouble I had with the whole thing, it seems to to be more trouble and less scalable than just smart splitter single line sushi runs 😦

[frosty owl]

That is correct
A similar comparison would be manifolds Vs load balancers, but with the latter being the one with fewer belts for once

[cinder silo]

I'm guessing trying to use the approach for anything large scale is just unwise.

[frosty owl]

Also probably unfeasible. Throughput-wise, the biggest production you can sushi-split are the 3 inputs for Uranium Fuel Rods (84 manufacturers max), if I recall correctly

In (my) big projects, single-input gets used in smaller parts of it.
Eg with my current ~300machines 7x7 challenge: I have a total production of ~0.8 Fused Modular Frames; I need 0.225 for Pressure Cubes - > Plutonium Fuel Units, so I made specific underclock ed machines for that. Given they take items at rates lower than 0.5/min, I single-input them all without worry

[cinder silo]

I'll revisit the method in my next save when I'm not trying to build a large sushi works.

[frosty owl]

The rest of the Fused Frame production is sushifolded due weird numbers

[cinder silo]

I'm not going to let the previous fiasco stop me 🤣

I'm considering expanding the idea of my mine>smelter towers to vertical production.

[oblique hollow]

there must exist a safe limit for how small the machine buffer is allowed to be. some recipes have space for x times the demand, others only 2x or 5x. So the question: in vanilla, right now, is there any recipe with a high demand of items per cycle that cannot be sushi'd?

mind you, we do not want to set the buffer to a fixed number: its supposed to be either twice or thrice the demand per cycle

[barren elm]

Overclocked heavy flexible frame

[oblique hollow]

im not talking about throughput

im talking about numbers of items per cycle

if overclocked heavy flexible exceeds belt speed, then thats a different issue

wait a second.... i remember having done tests for this

just gotta repeat that test with sushi

@frosty owl once you have time, can you give me a general sushi example to test?

[wind spade]

here's some

[oblique hollow]

delish

[oblique hollow]

ignoring the fact its modded, this is a possible case in vanilla: 2 manufacturers, both need half a stack of stuff, sushi'd

and all overflow goes into a sink

[fierce cypress]

It’s like midnight and I spent at least 30 seconds trying to understand what this recipe was

[oblique hollow]

its garbage

its for a test of reduced stack sizes

"What if machines only took enough material for 2 production cycles each cycle"

[wind spade]

definitely viable recipe

[oblique hollow]

yes, super viable

[wind spade]

you can't really get better than 50 ingots > 1 plate ratio

[fierce cypress]

Not to mention rotors and CBs

[oblique hollow]

motors

in any case: sushi lovers may not be concerned

[fierce cypress]

R and m, same thing

[oblique hollow]

its all still safe

[wicked tinsel]

i still stand on my point that reducing the buffer size changes nothing for 99% of setups and im sure its true for 100% of sushi setups

in particular, if your sushi setup leads to the sorted belts being filled, you wont be able to tell the difference at all

[fierce cypress]

By buffer you mean machines internal buffers?

[oblique hollow]

hence i made this test above to show that

[wicked tinsel]

it is true that if your sushi isnt a sushi but some sort of wave system, then it might break

but such setup will break in current game eventually too

like if you deliver lump sum of resources every dozen minutes and system sits empty between them

[oblique hollow]

wave system?

[wicked tinsel]

eg system needs 1000 copper and 1000 iron per 20 minutes

[oblique hollow]

oh, bulk deliveries

[wicked tinsel]

you deliver 1k bulk copper and 1k bulk iron later

so that its distributed completely before other resource arrives

but it wont work in current code either if both resources arrive at same time

[oblique hollow]

yeah if its later then its an issue, gotta be simultaneous-ish

[oblique hollow]

i doubt it would work anywhere

without storages

factorio machines would run dry too in that scenario

[wicked tinsel]

in theory it should work, in practice it probably wont

[oblique hollow]

it only works if you deliver just in time

downside: you need ridiculously fast distribution

[wicked tinsel]

yep

[oblique hollow]

like, probably unreasonably fast

a storage is a simpler solution

[wicked tinsel]

well, if your system is super downclocked, it can work anyway

but you will eventually deliver too little/too much and it will break

[oblique hollow]

yeah cuz the cycle time is so large

[wicked tinsel]

since its hard to control whole line

what i think vencam is missing is, machines will still have internal buffers, just adjusted to recipe's resource usage

so your sushi will still constantly distribute resources, it wont ever stop

the difference is that instead of having 490 + 10 space in machine, you will have 20 + 10 space in machine

from distribution point of view, it changes nothing

[oblique hollow]

oop there he is

[wicked tinsel]

due to how satisfactory works, realistically, machines should have something like 3x recipe resources space

so if your recipe uses 10 iron, you would be able to load 30 total

instead of 100 as it does now

provided you constantly input resources, it will never overflow or underflow the storage, imo

[oblique hollow]

even double can suffice

[frosty owl]

Which is how long-range transport works.
Your prior example isn't useful in this regard (items are made by macjg machines, in a stable fashion, correct?)

[barren elm]

Added complication for no real gain

[oblique hollow]

as per my test above

[oblique hollow]

Ven, you gotta buffer the stuff somewhere

if not in the machines, then in a container

i could simulate this with a train

and then deliver in bulk

[wicked tinsel]

if you buffer it in container, it will still work as it before

[oblique hollow]

only downside: large containers

so thats the next thing i guess

[wicked tinsel]

its like saying that machine that eats 60 items / min can't possibly be supplied with mk1 belt coz bulk deliveries

but it can, the bulk will just fill in intermediate container before being belted to machine

[oblique hollow]

as long as the bulk delivery happens within the time frame of the machine's cycle, everything should work

i can run that test if you want

no biggie

[wicked tinsel]

it doesnt need to, bulk delivery by design puts stuff into something from which its distributed later

if you distribute it with belt matching machine's input rate, it will work

it just wont be able to drain container to 0 way before next bulk arrives

[oblique hollow]

triple the demand per cycle might actually be enough

[frosty owl]

I don't see what the size of the container has to do with it...
No matter how big of a container you put, if items aren't on the belt when the machine needs them several times, the machine goes idle.
Most machine cycle in seconds, vehicles deliver in minutes. If not enough items are stored in the machines after being unloaded, they just go straight to the end of the line (right in @oblique hollow's picture)

[oblique hollow]

but still: you need a buffer for the stuff, if not in the machines, its gotta be external

[wicked tinsel]

but why would items not be on belt when machine needs them?

[frosty owl]

If it's external, it'll output as fast as possible, unless load balanced. Thus, items skipping by issue

[oblique hollow]

there is a creative solution, definitely

you just dont want to. I have 0 reason to believe sushi would be in danger

[wicked tinsel]

you just need to design it so that either the overflow goes back into the starting buffer (easy to do) or the buffer outputs in rate that matches the machines requirement

[oblique hollow]

and ill run all tests to verify that

[wicked tinsel]

both are perfectly viable to do

[frosty owl]

That's how factories fed by long-range transports behave. They receive a burst of items and distribute it between the machines. The distribution process takes a fraction of the time needed for another shipment to arrive

[oblique hollow]

and here i thought sushi was flexible

obviously not

[frosty owl]

Note: I pointed out needing an item recirculation system to fix the lack of individual machines' storaging, yesterday

[wicked tinsel]

the problem is that satisfactory is explicitly designed to fuck sushi systems over

there are multiple solutions that could work here

[frosty owl]

Not the way it is now. It would be the way you're suggesting to change things

[wicked tinsel]

but it is the same

if you sushi machine that has insufficient internal buffering, you cant make it work

your assumption is that machine's buffer is enough to cycle constantly over the delivery period

[oblique hollow]

you just need better solutions or better tools i guess

[wicked tinsel]

if you have something like concrete that eats stack of rocks in 2 minutes

then you cant sushi it with input cycle larger than 2 minutes

since your distribution way wont work

it only works by quirk of not overflowing internal storages in time

[oblique hollow]

again: tests over theory

i hate mental gymnastics when you can just try it

also ven, i still need an answer to the other question

is there a vanilla recipe that cannot be sushi'd?

[wicked tinsel]

i guess stuff like Heavy Flexible Frame, since it has buffer that isnt even one and half worth of input

[frosty owl]

There is recipes where each cycle requires half a stack can be bad for single-input sushi as they require precise timing, but nothing other than that.

The bigger issue is when an item is provided in bursts that are too long (2 ore more cycles-long). Notable example: pure iron (~13 ingots per cycle) and iron rods (1 ingot per cycle)

[oblique hollow]

which recipe is that

and whats your solution to it

[wicked tinsel]

the factorio solution is to maintain ratio of items on input belt constantly matching exactly what machine requires

but its complicated here as there are no priority mergers and splitters are extremely clunky

[oblique hollow]

is it also maintained over long distance, as with train delivery

[wicked tinsel]

no, you only maintain it on the input belt itself

[fierce cypress]

There are priority mergers if you can be bothered to make them

[frosty owl]

Uranium Cells > Rods can be an example. The "solution" is to not sushi them for long-range transport without buffers
Sushifolds are fine, but one might see Cells overflow with bad timing

[wicked tinsel]

otherwise resources will clump and machines will only see one item and not able to proceed

[oblique hollow]

come to think of it, arent open ended sushi lines kinda wasteful

you know, "oh no my belt stopped"

theres closed sushifolds, i know that

but those have precise input, right?

now what do you do with open ended, overfed sushifolds?

do you just sink it all?

i really do not know

i dont sushi that often

[frosty owl]

There is no advantage in having a loop for sushi other than offering extra belt-buffering for items to cycle through (some use it to help with long-range sushi)

[oblique hollow]

i dont mean loops

[frosty owl]

If the items are not precise, the system might clog with overflow, so theres that too

[oblique hollow]

thats a normal vanilla issue already, i know so much. but how do you solve it

[frosty owl]

That's the most common usecase: take what's on the belt, give it to machines via overflow method, have the overflow move on for further production/storage.
No balancing, just subtractions and additions of items

[frosty owl]

Solve what?

[oblique hollow]

yeah but what do you do with whats left over

you cant have the belt stop, right?

[frosty owl]

Process, storage/sink

[oblique hollow]

aight, but thats kinda the downfall of those then

either sink stuff or process

if you were to apply the change we suggest to machines, you are kinds forced to process it at the end

else you must continuously sink

.... on second thought thats exactly as in vanilla

overfed sushifold sounds kinda garbage ngl

[wicked tinsel]

there are multiple better solution to this, but that require some work from developers

for example, you could set output rate of storage container

if you match it with your sushi input rate, it will never clog

[oblique hollow]

so yeah, if you apply the change we suggest, overfed sushifold becomes even more garbage

[vapid gorge]

Eh that would cut in and dumb down a lot of work in the game.

[oblique hollow]

kinda deserves it tbh

[uncut sigil]

Why wouldn't you want to feed the sink? (excepting power issues)

[vapid gorge]

Literally nothing needs a container to spit out stuff at a certain rate. Load balance it or have a set of machines produce that number

[fierce cypress]

You can with belt speed balancing, but it would most likely break due to throughput loss issues, that would be the case even if it was an option to set it

[oblique hollow]

this is for a hypothetical adjustment to machines so they only take enough items for 2 cycles

and how this impacts sushi

overfed sushi becomes even worse, precise ratio sushi should be unaffected

[wicked tinsel]

in current setup, you can take fastest drained internal buffer of machine and deliver resources in bulk maching it time and quantity wise

[frosty owl]

The difference would be that less items stay in the machines - > Machine needs to be fed regularly (receive a batch every 2 production cycles or less)
Many recipes output items much slower than "2 production cycles of the following machine" - > Even local sushi (no long-range) would see unwanted overflow if the inventory of machines couldn't hold between 1 and 15 times the amount needed per cycle

I missed a reply

[uncut sigil]

If it's purely hypothetical I'll stay out of it 🙂

[oblique hollow]

yeye i get you. in a non-open ended (sink) solutiom, this is no issue, the belts stay filled

[wicked tinsel]

pretty much

[oblique hollow]

but for overfed sushi, which NEEDS disposal, this is terrible

[wicked tinsel]

the solution is to loop items back with priority merger, so that they dont overflow and you physically cant feed more than necessary

[oblique hollow]

but thats not really a flaw in out suggestion

[wicked tinsel]

this works, but obviously, its not possible in satisfactory

[oblique hollow]

it just means overfed sushi is garbage tier

its easy to do, but requires effort to get working

without more issues coming up

[frosty owl]

Or load-balance the inputs that can't back up and make sure the factory never stops

[wicked tinsel]

yeah

stuff like being able to artificially slow down something would work best here

be it storage output, splitter, belt itself

[oblique hollow]

so, in summary:

precise input sushi unaffected

overfed sushi dies

manifolds become a bit faster

[wicked tinsel]

but nothing like this exists in hi game

manifolds become visibly faster actually

[frosty owl]

It is, but requires labor
Most don't even do the priority merging part and just rely on not providing too much items/min to use the loop as buffering

"Most" of the few that do loops, that is

[oblique hollow]

how often do you do overfed sushi vs precise input?

cuz in that case, i will just run tests on overfed sushi

and see how bad it gets

[frosty owl]

About as often as one could prefer manifolding over balancing, maybe a bit more

[oblique hollow]

sounds like a huge dump on production efficiency

[frosty owl]

Precise input has little advantage if one doesn't get into single-input stuff, so it doesn't justify the effort as much as load-balancing Vs manifolding

[oblique hollow]

dont you sink like 15% of all input that way

the only overfed sushi with bulk delivery that would not die is the one that never becomes full

[frosty owl]

You sink whatever overflows.
Stuff that would otherwise be making your factory back up on output because the storage is full of it already

Think HOR disposal, but where HOR has bigger value

[oblique hollow]

Imma run some tests then

but at least, as you saw in my test, input that is sorta continuous works ok

just gotta make a bulk test

[frosty owl]

I don't see why that would be the case.
Merge items; feed them to machines; reach storage; sink overflow
You can do this with any belt and even if not needed most do it for single-item belts too; merging more items on one belt just saves beltwork if throughputs allow it

[frosty owl]

Kinda reinventing the wheel there :P

[oblique hollow]

imma post the results once i have em

[frosty owl]

If you're into testing atm, I could definetly use a hand with that b2b stuff (with building the tests too)~

[wicked tinsel]

uh huh

railway no longer provides power to hoverpack

now thats a weird change

[primal crypt]

oh no

[oblique hollow]

might be a bug

[barren elm]

join us over in camp Just Fly

[wanton field]

I would like to hear your feedback guys!

[frosty owl]

Don't spam in multiple channels

[wanton field]

i did remove from other

so no spam

[atomic tinsel]

hey guys

I just got to the Manufacturer stage

and I have some questions for people

[median heath]

Do it all in 1 message.

[atomic tinsel]

I'm in the desert biome:
should I make factorys on nodes or belt things into a bigger factory
When I use satisfactory caculator I always have stuff left and idk how many Manufacturers are recommanded for things @oblique hollow

[oblique hollow]

up to you

theres no guidelines for that. whatever suits your playstyle more

just know that its always easier to process stuff on-site

[atomic tinsel]

like when I want to create Heavy Modular Frame should I use only the raw things I need

or process it all into basics

for later cus I always have stuff left

[median heath]

You have to make decisions on how you are going to play the game.

None of us can play the game for you.

[tropic hawk]

Pros and cons of each side:

Small Factories on nodes:
PRO

• Less materials needed for building transport systems
• Compacts resources down so you need less bandwidth
  CON
• Each node gets locked into a product, so you have to redo a factory if you want something else from it
• It is more work for lots of small factories (Blueprints may change this)
  Large Central Facilities:
  PRO
• Easier way to dictate where materials go
• More simple processing to advanced materials as you can plan the process start to finish
• You can produce much more of things easily
• compacts resources down much easier so it just goes to storage
  CON
• More intensive load on your computer
• not very feasible early-midgame due to lack of mass production of normal materials
• locks in production once finished, if you need to change ratios, you need to change your whole factory

[atomic tinsel]

OMG man thanks so much

[tropic hawk]

Personally, I choose minor refinement on the node (typically to ingot or single processing after) then send it to large facilities for processing (like into HMFs or TMs)

[tropic hawk]

my pleasure

[atomic tinsel]

I dont have a lot of transfer methods yet besides trucks

so I use a belt buss

[tropic hawk]

if you fill all of your belts, don't forget to weld them together

[atomic tinsel]

yea I haven't played in a long time

and my factory from years a go looks like Let's Game It Out made it

[tropic hawk]

so long as you don't use his waste disposal method, I could care less what it looks like

[fading coyote]

Any better way to do (120) -> (45, 45, 30)?

[barren elm]

So you can now blueprint geothermal generators

[atomic tinsel]

hey guys when the machines are full is load balancing as effective as over balancing?

[wind spade]

wdym by over balancing?

[signal nimbus]

Overflow.

Yes.

[wind spade]

manifolds only need all but last two machines to be full

[atomic tinsel]

ye

[glacial hemlock]

the only time you could prioritize balancing over manifold is when kickstarting nuclear power plants, where rods are produced slowly, and you don't want 50 of them to pile up inside.

[spiral river]

So... discovered something that may have been found b4. You can animation cancel the manual chisel mining. if you release the e button as the third strike occurs, and immediately press it again, it cancels the pause between triple hits.

[oblique hollow]

its known

[maiden steeple]

another thing with chisel mining+multiplayer, if you open chat while mining, you'll keep mining until you press the button again, even after closing chat

[wind spade]

you can do that with alt-tabbing and tons of other stuff

[wicked tinsel]

stuck inputs are staple bug of this game

[wind spade]

stuck inputs are OS level thing

[maiden steeple]

it is nice for hand crafting a bunch of stuff early game

[wicked tinsel]

most of them are not OS thing

they mostly occur when you open some interface while having key pressed

it loses "unpress" action

which is why your hoverpack will keep going upward if you open build menu while having spacebar pressed 😄

annoying af

[tropic hawk]

manifold.

[mystic moon]

You know you can just tap space and it'll autocraft anyways?

[maiden steeple]

that doesn't work for me, it will do 1 craft step if I tap space

[mystic moon]

1 sec

Launching u7 to verify

[maiden steeple]

(on u6, over multiplayer hosted by my friend)

[mystic moon]

I know it works on u6

[maiden steeple]

maybe it's bc multiplayer?

I haven't opened u7 yet

[mystic moon]

Nah, I've done it on a hosted game and on dedi

[noble current]

can someone might help me calculating?

So I produce 240/min Steel pipes and wanting to use them as most efficient as possible in an alt-recip to produce encased industrial beams

So I've seen the ratio would be 28/min for steel pipes per assembler..

..and that's kinde where the issue begins since I only have 1 MK2 pure iron node and I just can't get the fitting math..

[mystic moon]

@maiden steeple lemme get you a vid

You just have to tap space lol

Still works on u7 🤷‍♂️

[median heath]

Testing new OC numbers:
150% Clock = 170% MW
200% Clock = 250% MW
250% Clock = 336% MW

@deft lichen

[maiden steeple]

interesting, that's what it looks like when I hold down space

[noble current]

should've added I am using the solid steel alternate recipe as well as the encased industrial pipe alternate recipe

[mystic moon]

Just try a short tap

[mystic moon]

You have to let go quick enough that it doesn't have time to do a segment

[maiden steeple]

if I do that, it does nothing

tried last night

[tropic hawk]

MK2 Pure Iron ore -> 240 i/min Steel pipes -> EIB (pipe alt recpipe) This is the process you need calculating, correct?

[noble current]

@tropic hawk Mk2 Pure on all 3 ressources, but ye

[tropic hawk]

alright, one sec

[noble current]

overclocking is possible as well

tho I only max on MK 3 belts for now, might should've added also, my bad

[tropic hawk]

https://beta.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=JIsvOB3C68fHyxtLGuya

this is a map showing the maximum resources possible

[tropic hawk]

still above the max output of 240 from the miners

I am assuming 100% CS, correct?

[noble current]

clockspeed is open, got lot of slugs

[tropic hawk]

one sec...

you got refineries or any concrete alts?

or any way to get more than 270 concrete/min?

[noble current]

don't have refinery yet and stuck to MK 3 belts, tho I got the silica alt

the 7.5/min Silica + 30/stone for 25/concrete alt

[tropic hawk]

you got access to quartz at this area?

[noble current]

northern forest

[tropic hawk]

got it

Only one node of each?

[noble current]

2 pure nodes quartz, 2 pure limestone actually

[tropic hawk]

here we are, 1 pure coal and iron with 270 i/min output, and 2 quartz and limestone at 270 each. https://beta.satisfactorytools.com/production?share=LBsio8E4c9fKYOJhfv5M

[noble current]

omg thanks so much!

also Northern Forest so overpowered as a starting area, ngl

[tropic hawk]

My pleasure. I reccomend that site for any calculation needs

Yep, especially in the Northwest with 4 pure iron, 1 pure copper, 1 pure limestone within sight of each other, and 2 pure quartz a short walk away

[noble current]

northwest has 2 pure limestone

marked the pure coal bc I already placed a miner there

5 pure iron if we include the other cliff of rocky desert, 4 normal coal, 1 pure coal, 2 pure copper, 1 normal copper, 2 pure quartz, 1 normal sulfur, 1 impure sulfure, 1 pure caterium and 2 normal caterium

Also 2 impure oil in walkable distance as well

the only troublesome thing there is the space due to the terrain lmao

[oblique hollow]

common issue

[mint cradle]

👍

[tropic hawk]

F-ective

[noble current]

if I have a foundry at 75% producing 45/min Ingots, it's the same when I queue 2 constructors at 75% with a 22.5/min Ingot intake as if I have a 100% constructor and a 50% constructor of an intake of 30/min and 15/min each, correct?

[tropic hawk]

if A:B = C:D, yes.

[oblique hollow]

if the sum of the numbers is the same, its the same

[noble current]

what I meant is, the bp you sent me requires me to pull 1 foundry with the alternate solid steel ingot recipe down to 75% which has an output of 45/min, the site said it's using a 50% and a 100% which have an intake of 15/min and 30/min respectively.

Which is why I wondered, if I couldn't just put 2 constructor at 75% each which causes both having an intake of 22.5/min, which, combined, fullfills the foundry's 45/min outtake.

I was just wondering, if it'd make a difference later down the line..

[frosty owl]

The only difference is in how fast they might fill up with input items (higher consumption means bigger time, with equal input)

[noble current]

uhh..the steel pipes, according to the graphic, comes from 13x 100% constructors and a 75% constructor (= 270 out overall), joining with 7x 100% and 1x 71.429% Fine concrete alt recipe (192.857 out overall) in 9x 100% and 1 64.2861% assembler for encased industrial pipes..

I just wondered, since one foundry pair used a 100% and a 75% constructor, if I could split it a bit more even..

tho didn't considered further down the line, how it'd fill with the later machines..

idk I just prefer ways where things are as evenly split as possible 😓

[barren elm]

There is no real punishment for overproducing

Even underclocking just got nerfed

[noble current]

ehhh...guess I could then also add a small belt away for steel pipe storage...one can never know when needs more, right?

[arctic willow]

about to start converting the top to the bottom (same three nodes, just slugging them up) - 320 refineries gonna be fun 😛

[oblique hollow]

if you are on U7 its quite easy

[left niche]

i AHM..... ran into a little issue

[oblique hollow]

only 107 refinery blueprints needed

[left niche]

wanted to do 120 turbo motors a minute

using a certain recipe.... But eeeeeeeeeeehhhh i dont think there is enough bauxite to make the needed 8000 aluminium casings a minute........

[arctic willow]

oops

[left niche]

best case scenario is 1.33 ingot per 1 casing

[odd spire]

cut it with iron for more ingots in foundries

[left niche]

1 ingot is somewhere around 1.1 bauxite

[oblique hollow]

1 ingot should be exactly 1 bauxite

[left niche]

but even then.....

[oblique hollow]

theres enough bauxite for 13040 ingots

[odd spire]

I hate cutting baux with silica, uses so much silica

[oblique hollow]

so your little turbo project just about eats all the aluminum

replan it

or choose a different motor alt

[left niche]

ik so using the best case scenario with ALL hard recipies

thats 10640 bauxite for the 8000 casings

i also need some for the 1440 packed nitrogen gas LOL

[oblique hollow]

yeah thats gonna be a hard no

cut it in half or by 75%

[left niche]

i think ill just cut it in half hahaha

[arctic willow]

they come out faster (so need fewer buildings) but it's fewer ingots (2.5 ingots per copper ore in refinery, 2 ingots per ore in foundry)

[oblique hollow]

60/min is already a lot

[left niche]

just wanted to utilize the 240moters a minute im making now

well onwards

[oblique hollow]

theres other things that need motors

[left niche]

current project

converting all bauxite in the world into ingots and put em on a train

[oblique hollow]

you do not wanna ship around 13040 ingots/min by train

[left niche]

yes i do LOL

but its slightly less

cus i will just use smelters

[oblique hollow]

why

[left niche]

the quarz is needed elswhere

and less power use

ease of build

[oblique hollow]

gonna be 9780 ingots at best

[left niche]

10k will have to do

[oblique hollow]

then you need to use quartz

or rather, silica

[left niche]

will see

[oblique hollow]

you could just use default alumina solution

so you get some that way

[left niche]

hate the numbers on that one

[oblique hollow]

its not that bad

[left niche]

and you get less scrap

[oblique hollow]

you get less scrap but you get silica which yields more ingots

[left niche]

i like the one to one nubers

[oblique hollow]

i guess you are using electrode scrap?

[left niche]

and also the water is better

nah sloppy 😛

[oblique hollow]

no wait, default scrap and sloppy, ew

just use instant scrap then lol

the sulfur argument doesnt exist anyway

[left niche]

instant scrap?

[oblique hollow]

instant scrap

[left niche]

is that in a blender or something?

[oblique hollow]

best efficiency of bauxite to scrap

needs less sulfur than you think

[left niche]

dont have any

all is used in batteries and nuclear

[oblique hollow]

why not, burned it all on turbofuel? or 300 batteries?

because you cannot max out sulfur on nuclear

[left niche]

others are too far away 😛

[oblique hollow]

thats a lazy excuse

[left niche]

i know 😛

[odd spire]

setup your batterline /nuke line, with an overflow, and transport the overflow elsewhere

[oblique hollow]

you got drones and trains to bring it in

[left niche]

i do

i also do like the way the one to one refineries look

and the numbers work out great with 720 exit belts

[oblique hollow]

then you need to bring in quartz

[left niche]

every 2 refineries is a 720 belt

[odd spire]

Is blender instant scrap the best for baux production?

[oblique hollow]

one of the best*

[left niche]

every 720 line is 12 smelters

[oblique hollow]

the other option is sloppy plus electrode scrap

which has the same efficiency, but doesnt need sulfur

[odd spire]

I have been using the base recipe alumin scrap

[oblique hollow]

gonna be 8802 ingots then

[odd spire]

smelters not foundries?

[oblique hollow]

theres an alt for ingot

you throw the scrap in a smelter and ingots come out

[odd spire]

yup

[oblique hollow]

downside? you get less than if you get with the one in the foundry

[odd spire]

foundries give more

but require to much damn silica

[oblique hollow]

ye keen is not using silica

[left niche]

did the calc

[odd spire]

@.snutt reduce the silica

[left niche]

lemme see

[oblique hollow]

its not that bad

[uncut sigil]

Wouldn't max ingots use most of the quartz on the map as well?

[left niche]

cant find it but it was a hell of a lot of sillic

[oblique hollow]

just dont mix the silica with new one

[oblique hollow]

yep, 8802 out of 10500, unless you use cheap silica

well, with this setup of sloppy plus normal scrap

true max needs 9780 quartz without cheap silica

[left niche]

and how will u make the oscillators then?

[oblique hollow]

you dont

[left niche]

but you HAVE to 😛

if u want to do turbo motors

u need the oscillators one way or the other

[oblique hollow]

well, thats 1698 quartz left

[left niche]

right that enough

for like eehm

72 a minute or something

[oblique hollow]

2 control units per turbo motor
1 oscillator per 2 units = 1 osc. per motor
with pure quartz, thats 46.2857 quartz per oscillator

thats 36 ish turbomotors at best

[left niche]

not using that one 😉

[oblique hollow]

buuuuut

with insulated oscillator....

[left niche]

using the packed nitrogen and cube moter one

[oblique hollow]

cube motor still needs RCUs

[left niche]

and insulated osc

yeah but not that much

[oblique hollow]

and its still 2 per motor

1 cube per motor, 2 rcus per cube

makes the same amount of rcus as default

[left niche]

ah yes

but spits out more moters

right?

[oblique hollow]

with insulated, its 132 indeed

insulated is the only difference

pressure motor or default doesnt change quartz requirement

[left niche]

and what if use the crystal computers

[oblique hollow]

thats a different issue xd

[left niche]

just went back to my facility

so im running 48*1.875 ocs a min

so yeah 90 a minute

using 1500 quarz a min

but also i will need 240hsc a minute

wich also take 37.5 sillica

[oblique hollow]

consider not using SHSC

[left niche]

and ooow yes the QUICK WIRE ..... 😦

[oblique hollow]

oooor, funny new idea: switch to default alumina solution

[left niche]

yeah but need HSC anyway to make motors

cuz of the eeehm

controll rods

[oblique hollow]

you get 4000+ silica from all the bauxite

[left niche]

yeah but if u do that u need to stick that back into aluminium production 😛

[oblique hollow]

not really

[left niche]

not really but better

i also hate to chain to many processes cuz when one stops u r Fed

[oblique hollow]

overflow exists

[left niche]

😛

[oblique hollow]

you COOOULD use electrode scrap

[left niche]

ill jus cut the turbo moter production in half

60 is enough too

[barren elm]

Your PC will melt before you get to this point

[left niche]

that also is a LOT of tickets

[oblique hollow]

ye good choice

[left niche]

no pc wont melt

did 54 or something like that in my last save no problem

allways thought the cubes was the biggest problem

and then i saw how much aluminium casing you needed

ant thought.... but cooling systems need those too ....

and some other stuff

[oblique hollow]

and thats when the snowball starts rolling

[left niche]

yeah better go back a couple or yeard

when we just did small builds

😛

OR MAYBE we get new nodes tomorrow 😛

[odd spire]

Alumina solution wont produce enough silica for the foundries to make alu ingots correct?

[oblique hollow]

not enough for all ingots

but enough for like... 1 quarter

[left niche]

and dont forget about all the coal you need 😉

[odd spire]

yeah that coal req is a pain

[oblique hollow]

correction: its exactly enough for 1/3rd of ingots if you use default refinery scrap recipe

[left niche]

just the coal? What about this WHOLE GAME??

[west siren]

how much waste does a nuclear reactor produce?

[left niche]

a lot

[west siren]

each minute using uranium cell hehe

[odd spire]

I am making 700 barrels a minute with 70 reactors @ 100% clocks

[west siren]

ok so its 10 / minute

[odd spire]

and a uranium fuel rod burns for 5 minutes, so 50 barrels total (10 a min)

[west siren]

Thank you

[left niche]

wich doesnt sound too bad but well

[odd spire]

when you have 70 reactors its a bit of a pain

[left niche]

if u just store it and play for a couple of hours ...

even with just 24

[odd spire]

yeah, mine are being reprocessed into plut fuel rods and sinked at least

[left niche]

mine are too

but i built op like 700K in waste as i was building and setting up the reprocessing

so that is now trickling away at 60 a minute

toghether with the waste of the 24 reactors

[wind spade]

depends on clock speed and fuel

[odd spire]

after i finished my setup for reprocessing i accidently disconnected a bauxite line from power during cleanup, massive backlogs uranium waste piled up everywhere, fuel rods stacked in containers. Glad I still had my fuel generators running

did Update 7 change the clock rates for OC with power? I remember it being mentioned

[left niche]

no dont think they did

i thing that whole overclocking thing is just a red haring 😛

they keep bringing it up throwing us off

and instead the give us BLUEPRINTS

[odd spire]

lol. I never OCed power cause of the bad scaling

[wind spade]

yeah. You use less power overall on OCed buildings. And gens clock linearly

[odd spire]

not sure what a blue name means, but it trust you cause its blue

[oblique hollow]

the scaling is good now

its as expected

[vapid gorge]

wait as in less power than not OCed buildings or just less power than previously OCed buildings?

[wind spade]

the power curve isn't as steep

[oblique hollow]

less power vs old OC

[wind spade]

but you still use more power than 100% OC

[oblique hollow]

exponent is now 1.3something

instead of 1.6

[deft lichen]

uh, is each track a single direction?

[rose dock]

in this scenario yes.

[deft lichen]

most often you'll want to use double tracks

a sketch I did earlier, example junction with path signals in the bottom right

[left niche]

and o YOY if your trains are longer than the blocks u use 😄 😄 😄

[rose dock]

Path blocks can still contain regular block signals yeah?

[deft lichen]

path blocks don't "contain" block signals, by placing a block signal, a new block is made

all signals create blocks, whether it's a "block block" or "path block" is determined by entry signals, which have to be of the same type

exit signals can be either type

[rose dock]

But a distant path signal can communicate with another path signal on the end of some intersection, junction or split off?

[deft lichen]

chaining path signals is a pretty rare case

[noble current]

can someone help me a bit with balancing belts? I basically got a 240/min stone income and my math told me it's about 5.33 constructors...is there a way to even it out to make it a "full" machine, or is it just unavoidable overflow I can pull down the sink? (MK 3 belts)

trying to use ressources as best as possible and actually trying to avoid to sink stuff for now, so if there's a possibility to make use of the 0.33 or do some belt split and merge magic, I'd prefer if someone could explain me the magic behind it

[odd spire]

You can build 5 constructors and underclock one to 33%

[rose dock]

Make an extra constructor and use a smart splitter to manage overflow.

[deft lichen]

decimal amount of machines = round up, set last machine to lower clock speed

[rose dock]

That's how people do it? 😮 I usually add a smart splitter to create an idle machine that process and handles the excess.

[deft lichen]

well...yeah

it's standard to make clock speeds match

that way power draw and production is stable

[odd spire]

And dont have to worry about putting in a giant awesome sink

[noble current]

ye I just thought it's possible to spread the 0.33 throughout the 5 belts and overclock each constructor by a litte but maybe I just thought too complicated...duh..

[rose dock]

😮 I have been doing it wrong.

I only add an extra machine with a smart splitter ORZ

[noble current]

maybe watched too much youtube videos where people tried to split stuff out as thin as possible

[odd spire]

You could do that too, but its easier to add the 6th constructor and underclock it

[left niche]

OR you just scale up or down until your numbers match

[noble current]

nah, it's just a single MK 2 stone I have idling for concrete production available

[left niche]

thats where most of the fun is for me

trying to get the right amount of machines to match all full round numbers

[noble current]

ye it's just I don't have the ressources yet to expand too far, so I'm trying for now to build up a buffer for me to use

[left niche]

also i dont care what miners i have.
I have allways treated my builds from the start as if they were fed from MK3 miners and only use normal and pure nodes

all you have to do later in game is replace the belts and miner and you have a full on production

[rose dock]

Ah in case you feel the need to upgrade them in the future.

That's a lot of smart splitters to invest into

[left niche]

nop i hardly use smart splitters

[noble current]

that's what I kinda try to do for now with MK 2 miners

lategame for me is rn just a miner problem

[left niche]

i load balance all builds

[rose dock]

You don't do overflow production?

[left niche]

if the build is correct... there is no overflow

[wind spade]

they mean "overflow method" aka manifold

[left niche]

ah yes nopr

where is the fun in manifolding if u can loadbalance

[wind spade]

where is the fun in building complex contraptions if you can just manifold 🤷‍♂️

[rose dock]

Jesus I'm not that skilled enough to even make a load balance as complex as that. I usually just go with a more spacey load balance

[left niche]

its not too complex

it just a lot of repeating

[wind spade]

it's still more complex than a manifold 🤷‍♂️

and harder to expand later

[left niche]

there is 48 manufacturers on the recieving end of that

[median heath]

48 Manufacturers?
Sounds like something I can do on 5-6 belts.

😁

[left niche]

omg youre back

mr sushi

[median heath]

I've been back?

[noble current]

I still don't understand load balancing and I guess it's still way too early for me to get into it xD

[left niche]

its nog that hard

if u have 3 machines for instance 3 refineries taking 200 bauxite each

instead of manifolding

take a 600 node and split it in 3

but oke those are nice numbers

also you can do all kind of fun stuff with containers of train stations

for example most of the early game things are nice numbers to work with 720 belts. it splits nicely in 12/24 and 48

so what you do is put a splitter after the train station and feed a mk1 belt of it back into the station

now you have a 720 belt

[noble current]

wait...what?

I'm trying to process

[left niche]

did any of you try making aluminium build a closed loop system?

[wind spade]

load balancing is when you make splitter contraptions so that each machine gets equal amount of resources

[left niche]

what i mean is that you take in NO external water?

[wind spade]

as opposed to manifolds, which are just overflow

I don't think you can make closed aluminum build since it loses water

[left niche]

hook up some pipes to get it started and after the initial fill just let it run

[oblique hollow]

thats not possible tho

aluminum always needs some fresh water

its not an infinite water generator

you get 1/3rd of your input water back out

not 100%

[left niche]

in case of the sloppy my last set of 3-5 is running as a closed loop though

[oblique hollow]

thats still nonsense tho

[left niche]

ah no of course

the first two making the solution getting fresh

😦

[oblique hollow]

the only alu with a partial closed loop is instant scrap

where you can recycle the water into sulfuric acid 100%

but you still need an extra 30 fresh water for the blender

or 50, idk

nvm, 60

still, 50 water to 50 acid, closed loop on that end

[left niche]

well that was enough for tonight.
Fixcit does not waste....
Euhhhhhh.....

complete alu setup to run straight into 5 grinders....

DONT MIND the clipping those sinks are TEMPRARY

[silent thorn]

#floorconveyorsarentclipping

[left niche]

??

[left niche]

aaah yes

[silent thorn]

even though they now clip with the foundation... they didn't used it :/

[left niche]

not what i ment there is pipes through the sinks/conveyors criss crossing 😛

[silent thorn]

yeah, easy fix 😛

[left niche]

i mean 😛

[silent thorn]

annoying that every time I crash my bps lose their categories...

[raw flame]

how many oil gens can i have from 2 impures and a normal

[median heath]

That's dependent on a variety of factors.

[snow dove]

okay here we go,
How much oil do you get from those nodes?
how much does each "oil gen" use up?
divide the former by the latter and there's your answer

[median heath]

First clarification: Do you mean Fuel Generators?

[raw flame]

oh yeah fuel

sorry

[median heath]

Which alts do you have available?

[raw flame]

let me chech

*check

[median heath]

HOR and Diluted Fuel at the main 2 I'm looking for.

[median heath]

So you have no alts.

[raw flame]

I do

[median heath]

The 2 listed there aren't alts.
They come standard and require no hard drive to unlock.

[snow dove]

they're labeled as alts in-game but are not truly alts

[median heath]

As the base recipe tells you, 6 Oil = 4 Fuel.

So Oil Amount * (4/6) = Fuel Amount

Generators burn 12/min at 100%, so Fuel Amount / 12 = Generators @ 100%.

[sweet halo]

there is diluted fuel if you have access to blenders

[snow dove]

@raw flame
240 oil from your nodes at 100% clock
Using the base recipe you require 18 oil per minute to supply 1 fuel gen
so 240/18=13.33... Fuel gens

[snow dove]

they very clearly do not

[median heath]

This is why we asked him to show his alts...

[raw flame]

ok

so 14 gens and one underclocked

[snow dove]

13 full gens, 1 gen underclocked to 33.33%

[raw flame]

ok

I am SOOOOOOO glad i completed the HMF factory yesterday

i need 140 of them

[versed violet]

per minute??

[raw flame]

@snow dove how many refinerys do i need?

[snow dove]

i recommend you do the math yourself on that

[raw flame]

i can try

[snow dove]

trying and failing is a part of the game

[frozen willow]

Do you mean manufacturer?

[snow dove]

it's how you learn

[snow dove]

no they mean refinery, they're talking about oil to fuel

[frozen willow]

oh sry

[snow dove]

all good

[frozen willow]

saw he was talking about hmf 😅

[raw flame]

it took me atleast 15 hours to make my hmf factory

[frozen willow]

Well done. Ive prob spent 60 just designing my 1920 screws floor in 1 factory. I dont count tho. i just enjoy the process in starting a new save from all the findings in my other saves 😊 This game is about relaxation for me. Not rushing. Ive done enough rushing on other saves 😅

[raw flame]

same with me

[raw flame]

ummmmmm its was not hard

just 60*4

[median heath]

None of the math in this game is hard, that was Iroh's point 🙂

[raw flame]

imo it can get pretty hard. or im just overthinking

[median heath]

Overthinking.
All of the math in the game is basic arithmetic, i.e. just a simple as "60*4"

You just do it multiple times in a row for larger production chains.

[raw flame]

ture

[frozen willow]

Ones you played a while, you dont even think. You just know😆

[raw flame]

im only on my first save

i have 150+ hours I think

[frozen willow]

Welcome to the game that will take over your life😂 But as Sevrahn said, math is easy. Its either multiplied by or divided by. And if the mats dont add up, you over / underclock to your liking 🙂

[raw flame]

ture

[frozen willow]

A way some do it is looking at what your goal is, and calculate backwards. I dont do that most of the time tho. I just go a long with it 🙂

[median heath]

Oh you should always solve backwards.

[frozen willow]

I do backwards after i exploit / create all basic iron, steel etc

But then again, thats also kinda calculating backwards, so you are right 😂

[still brook]

I know belts have an issue running at 780, do pipes have an issue running at 600?

[silent thorn]

Any ideas on whether there is plausible bp that is so expensive you can't place it (because the required materials are larger than a max size inventory)?

[median heath]

Late reply:
If you don't build mk2s in a certain way, yes.

[median heath]

Wouldn't be possible.

[still brook]

dam, what is that certain way?

[median heath]

Loop the manifold so it doesn't have any hard stops.

[still brook]

So something like this?

[fierce cypress]

and delete the sticking out part at the end

[still brook]

ah yeah, there's more to put int this row, 15 in total but yeah at the end i'd chop it off

[vapid gorge]

Also this bit on the left. I find I get better results by having the main feed be higher or same elevation as the top part of a pipe loop

[still brook]

Easy as, thanks!

[ornate shoal]

perhaps a space filled with mk3 wall connectors

[vapid gorge]

A million clipped objects

c l i p

[silent thorn]

Yeah, but I'm thinking like a plausible bp someone could want to place, not just clipspam

[vapid gorge]

People like spaghetti

[silent thorn]

Those people are monsters

[odd spire]

A container filled with plutonium fuel rods.

[silent thorn]

Does bp include container contents?

[odd spire]

Not sure, I know the overclockers are included

[frosty owl]

No.
Just like it won't magic in input items for machines

[oblique hollow]

just make sure you definitely start the loop at the same junction as input feed

whethee or not the loop connected to rhe emd of the manifold is less important

important is that it connects to the input junction

[still brook]

not sure exactly what part you mean by input junction, is it the first junction splitting the input pipe?

[oblique hollow]

yes

the first junction at your machines

the one you feed first

[still brook]

So like this?

[oblique hollow]

eh should work, yes

[thick plank]

I just saw this and i am a bit confused. Shouldnt it say 250 screws/min?

[arctic willow]

fifteen millionths of a screw would be a heck of a load balancer

[thick plank]

Its not that. Its just that when i see such a thing my brain just goes into angry mode

If i see such an nonsensical thing, i wanna understand it. And when i dont i get angry

[vast jungle]

typical floating-point problem

[arctic willow]

seems to be specific to that one recipe, curiously enough

its overclocked version has rounding errors in the plates too

[wicked tinsel]

classic floating points and bad float to string printing

[arctic willow]

(plates are correct at 200% but screwy at 250%)

[vast jungle]

maybe there is a rounding operation missing in the output for the overclocking

[oblique hollow]

its like the only recipe that does this

[arctic willow]

just tried it with the aluminium ingot recipe (which also has a 90 in its default) and that works fine

bolted plate plates must be stored internally as 89.99999999999999 or some such

[vast jungle]

might be, an "of by one" error in the constant... but that would be really strange, because nobody would put their constant into the source-code in binary

[oblique hollow]

impossible

its stored as exactly 50 screws

the rest is done by math

[vast jungle]

you are talking about the file with the ratios? Does SF read from this file or is it just something they added for us?

[oblique hollow]

it reads recipes from their respective class / file

codex, alt recipe window, machines....

they all derive the values from Recipe_[Name]

which stores item type, amount per cycle and time per cycle

it only seems. to be a rounding error for the items per minute on this one

[vast jungle]

still... if both inputs are the same and the math is the same, the output should be the same

[oblique hollow]

something goofed up there

cannot be explained

[vast jungle]

lets agree with "cannot be explained without more data"

[upbeat tide]

Super computer alts question

Is super state considered "good"? The one that uses electro mag rods and batteries

Beginning to plan a 60 a min build

[prime tiger]

it is the most efficient ya

[short holly]

different stuff. it looks pretty good on paper, fewer resources etc

but it does take sulphur which is a downside

[upbeat tide]

Already have a 800 a min battery setup done

Using reclaimed sulfur from a decommissioned TF factory

[short holly]

cool - https://satisfactory.fandom.com/wiki/Supercomputer go for the super state one then imo

[upbeat tide]

The battery count is what made me think of that alt

[median heath]

I use the base recipe.

[upbeat tide]

May work too, im already gonna be needing a sh** ton of quickwire again 😄

[median heath]

Most efficient by what metric?

[upbeat tide]

Well for me I can invest

600 to super compa
100 to drone fuel
100 to magnetic field gens

[median heath]

0 Bauxite is more efficient than Using Bauxite.

So.. Base recipe for me as baux is my limiting resource.

[upbeat tide]

For battery usage

[prime tiger]

based on the amount of resources per unit weighted by the availability of each resource on the map

[median heath]

I also rarely care about global WP, because I source locally. So locally WP has a much different priority.

[prime tiger]

tru ya

[median heath]

Base because 0 Bauxite cost for me.

[oblique hollow]

as it turns out this isnt a good metric for everything

hence the wiki is yeeting global wp too

[median heath]

YEET

[upbeat tide]

My entire build system is global in nature. For example my batteries are in the west coast. I plan to bring over the raw materials for quickwire from the grasslands up there to make the stupid amount of QW. And can either transport in or build locally for the plastic and rubber needs

Using caterium computers and CB too

[median heath]

Oof

[prime tiger]

i would recommend shipping the caterium instead and making the quickwire onsite

[median heath]

CtComp pairs better with SilCB.

[upbeat tide]

Thats what im doin

Seeing as ill be making 7200 QW

Maxing out 600 caterium ingots worth

[lusty vine]

I like switching to crystal computers after building an oscillator production

[median heath]

Crystal Comp is the only way I make them. Love that recipe.

[lusty vine]

No need to bother with quickwires that way

[upbeat tide]

I love crystal comp too but my silica use is...staggering

Thank you a ton of high speed connectors

[median heath]

Oh I still do because Insulated Oscillator and CtCB.

[lusty vine]

I like silicon CBs, but the row of copper sheet refineries may stretch farther than render distance 😄

[median heath]

I can't use SilCB with Crystal Comp on the scale I build.

[lusty vine]

What's the limiting resource?

[median heath]

Build 270 Crystal Comps/min and tell me what you think the limiting resource is 😉

And the specifics of "I cannot combine the quartz-based CB with the quartz-based Comp" should also have been a big clue 😉

[lusty vine]

holy ~~~

[karmic creek]

In that regard.. somebody tell me how to transport 3600 quickwire for computers 😄

[arctic willow]

best advice: don't

[lusty vine]

just make QW on site

[arctic willow]

transport ingots instead and make the quickwire on arrival

[median heath]

Transport the ingots instead.

[karmic creek]

yeah maybe just bring the plastic and the rubber onsite and build the computers there

thing is i made a dedicated caterium processing plant

[lusty vine]

mistake

[karmic creek]

that takes 600 ore and produces 3600 quickwire

[lusty vine]

or convert it to CB or high speed connector plant

[karmic creek]

perhaps. i just didn't have the nodes at any good location, so that i can multiply the production