off-topic-tech

[willow pike]

this is a superb resource

goddamn link deleting piece of garbage

the easiest way i can explain why v-sync results in increased latency is a Satisfactory analogy

imagine you have a miner putting out 30 iron ore, and a smelter making 30 iron ingots

but the conveyor connecting them is chock full of ore

this is v-sync enabled; sure, everything is working at 100% efficiency, but the ore is spending ages in buffers and conveyors

that's input lag

Traditional swapchain behavior (with V-Sync enabled) requires that each backbuffer be displayed on screen for at least 1 screen refresh before the contents of the next backbuffer is displayed and that all buffers output in the same order they were input.

This behavior is what is known as a FIFO (First-In-First-Out) Queue.
FIFO’s inability to prioritize the newest frame is the reason triple-buffering has traditionally meant trading increased input latency for V-Sync stutter mitigation.

special K has many ways of mitigating swapchain fuckery, though modern windows 11 does most of it natively

but v-sync is still v-sync

better way to do it is to control the miner (the CPU) so it only dispatches frames to the smelter (the GPU) as needed

that's a framerate limiter

[twin dew]

Yeah, but that was about what happens when there aren't enough frames being rendered and you get "underrun" and at least some frames need to be shown multiple times.

Where as that article mainly cares about the times when you are rendering more frames than being displayed.

[willow pike]

if framerate goes above v-sync, the buffers fill and you end up with the above problem

so v-sync gives input lag when framerate is too high and stuttering when too low

[twin dew]

With framerate below refresh rate.

[willow pike]

that's also why adaptive sync is a thing where it'll turn vsync off when under the refresh rate; not perfect but better

for the lowest input latency, you want to make sure the gpu isn't 100% loaded and filling all the buffers

[twin dew]

So in most cases the rendering will happen at whatever speed, without pauses when rendering rate is below refresh rate, and I had bad memories.
And for mostly my info was from time before DX9, where skipping frame display wasn't even possible.

[willow pike]

yeah swapchains have moved on

used to be that exclusive fullscreen was the best

that hasn't been true for years; borderless windowed mode has the same input lag now

assuming you use windows 11 fullscreen optimisations to enable flip model etc

it even supports tearing in borderless windowed now, if you want that

the best way to kill input lag and avoid tearing is to get a gsync/freesync display, and use nvidia reflex / amd anti lag 2

reflex / antilag 2 are dynamic CPU frame limiters

they use information provided by the game to try and predict how long the next frame will take, and limit framerate to keep GPU utilisation at 99-98%, rather than 100%, so all buffers are kept empty

independent testing shows it really works

it's also the only reason nvidia can get away with frame generation adding back in some input latency (to a point)

unfortunately, if your game engine is a piece of shit, it needs full buffers to hide shit frame pacing

i hear oblivion remastered shits the bed with reflex

https://tenor.com/view/todd-howard-whos-laughing-now-gif-14680951

[twin dew]

Well, it is two engines bolted onto each other.

Original running stuff and then glue layer to transfer the render stuff to UE.

Like several other remasters lately.

[willow pike]

the UE stuff runs fine but can only do what bethesda creation engine wills it

i use optiscaler to turn satisfactory's reflex support into anti lag 2 and it works great

fantastically low latency

[twin dew]

Yeah, and point was that there is significant uncommon up to now disconnect between the actual game, and the render layer.

[willow pike]

perfect frame pacing

[twin dew]

And when that GPU driver functionality only mucks up with one of them, you get issues.

[willow pike]

yeah and i suspect starfield also sucks with reflex

i got zero faith in todd's lot to make good code

[night girder]

What did I wake up too

[willow pike]

todd howard

[night girder]

I am just going to assume the obvious that Baldur is right.

But I went to bed with a clear answer to vsync to wake up to ... murky waters.

[twin dew]

I'm not fully?

[twin dew]

Main point was that it isn't 1/2, 1/4 etc. but 1/x where x is integer.

The frame buffering stuff I said isn't up to date.

[night girder]

Ok, but most articles just explain it has halving of the refresh rate. If refresh rate of monitor can't be met.

[twin dew]

In the later parts.

The part where I explain why that happens is still true.

The parts about possible stuttering as result are so-so.

[twin dew]

Refresh rate stays constant, but the rate of new rendered frames changes in integer divisions of the refresh rate.
As each frame needs to be shown for 1+ refreshes.

[night girder]

Let me rephrase, if we turn on FPS monitoring, we will see 72 fps if 144Hz is refresh of monitor, but vsync can't match it. That's how I read it in an article last night.

[feral drift]

Not sure I wanna ask this...

But I'm reading that AMD X3D CPU's is prefered for gaming.. I'm running AM4 Socket (Not keen yet to upgrade to AM5)

Currently running R9 5950X - However I don't really use the 16 cores as I'm mostly just gaming.. So would there be any "upgrade" in going into a X3D CPU ?

I can see the only available as new is R7 5700X3D.. As it seems the 5800X3D is EoL

[night girder]

Halving of the refresh rate as I said. While I know, it's syncing the frames.

[twin dew]

Refresh rate stays at 144.
Each ready frame would be shown for two refreshes, so 1/2 framerate from refresh rate.
And then when going below that it goes to showing frame for three refreshes, for 1/3 frame rate from refresh rate.
With actually high probability of that stuttering talked later as some frame would be shown for one refresh, other for two refreshes.
If the rendering rate was between 1/1 and 1/2 refresh rates.

The issue I originally talked was that it would halve again, to 1/4th, if rendering couldn't keep up with 1/2 rate, when it actually goes to 1/3rd next.

[night girder]

So the user would still see 144 FPS when monitoring? Even if vsync can't match?

[twin dew]

No, as those monitoring solutions aren't looking at the monitors refresh rate, but the amount of frames sent to the display for drawing.

The refresh rate is static, unless there is variable refresh rate tech in use.

[night girder]

But that's what I am saying. And articles. And the internet 🤷‍♂️

I am gonna play my games.

[twin dew]

Point was to differentiate between refresh rate (monitor property) and fps.
When too many sources use them interchangeably.

[twin dew]

And this message hit that in my original read, but might have been misread from me.

[twin dew]

Ah, sorry, this one.

So frame rate halves as first step, but refresh rate stays the same.
And the reason for that frame rate halving is explicitly that static refresh rate, and requirement to only display full frames.
So if next frame isn't ready, the previous one is just displayed again, as many times as necessary until next full frame is ready.

[night girder]

And 60FPS turns into 30FPS (1/2) ... and else into 20FPS(1/3) and else into 15FPS(1/4) if Vsync can't sync frames to monitors max refresh rate?

[willow pike]

this is double buffering; you can see there are two buffers in the image you posted, the one the GPU is writing to, and the one the monitor is reading from

no room for the GPU to go faster than 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 etc

[twin dew]

Yeah, today the FPS displays will show whatever in between, as they are averaged.

Would need frametime graph to see the actual effect where it would be jumping between two discrete values.

[willow pike]

with triple buffering you avoid this and let the GPU work faster but end up with more buffers between the GPU and the display

though even this is a gross simplification

doesn't take into account copy versus flip etc

[twin dew]

Because traditionally the monitor is in control of the refresh rate, and with VSync on,
GPU is only allowed to swap to new frame between refreshes.

And the advantage of variable refresh rate is that GPU is basically fully in control, and monitor follows the GPUs command on when to refresh.

[willow pike]

ye

freesync is a hell of a drug

combine it with a good framerate limiter and you get minimal input lag and no tearing

[twin dew]

Result from original CRT tech without any extra electronics, where the signal went directly to drive the display, except some timing circuitry to move the electron beam.
Which is why we still have overdraw etc.
And VSync is when the electron beam control moved from bottom right back to top left, without that beam being active.
And then various porches where it retracted back from right to left and moved down one line.

Even with DP and HDMI we still include the stuff that was necessary for very old CRTs to function with direct drive analog input without any processing.

IIRC the actual sent resolution still is larger than the "display resolution" even with those, but not completely certain.

[willow pike]

it is

i fucked with it in order to reduce my 7900xts power consumption last year (no longer necessary with newer drivers)

by increasing overdraw and running the displayport at a higher clock speed, i was able to let it idle more (more overdraw meant more gap between actually sending data) and let the memory clock to idle

amd seems to have figured out how to do this on many more monitor configs by default now

not an easy problem to solve

[willow pike]

ye

i spent a long time fucking with CRU, very glad it's not needed anymore

[twin dew]

Wonder why with at least DP it doesn't just move the data in bursts and idle the link until next frame...

When DP is packet based anyways.

[willow pike]

monitor manufacturers only let their displayports run at the frequency they need to, no higher

i didn't have a lot of room to play with, if i added too much blank and ran it at too high a frequency, i got no picture

[twin dew]

Meant at the standards phase.
That is implementation phase thing to only support actual speeds up to what that specific display needs, not to the max the specific spec version is supposed to support.

[willow pike]

oh also, i believe directx will render as many as 3 frames ahead rather than just 2 as with triple buffering; this is the Maximum Pre-rendered Frames setting in nvidia control panel

[twin dew]

Could have mandated that any DP1.0 sink device needs to support full DP1.0 speed of reception, and be able to handle that bursty use.

Cannot be changed anymore, but could have done on the first spec version, and kept up since then.

[willow pike]

alas, manufacturers get to dictate what displayport is

"but we wanna save some cents!" they cry in unison

https://tenor.com/view/to-capitalism-metal-gear-solid-mgs3-gif-11316909

[twin dew]

Yeah, but the GPU and sink device chip manufacturers could have done the opposite, but didn't.
Because for the sink chip makers it would probably been cheaper to do less different chips, as they would not have needed to "support" multiple tiers for different resolutions.
Which would also have bought benefits of scale even more.

But more likely wasn't even thought about as option, as all other video connections before had always been just JIT type with variable static bitrate.

Even when everyone buffered the signal on sink end anyways already.

[visual tree]

Noticed ISP technicians opened a manhole and were working on fiber enclosure so they can connect my house later 😄

[thin trout]

all else being the same, vcache can be a >50% upgrade for satisfactory. But 5700x3d loses a lot of clocks, doubly so compared to the 5800x3d, which hurts it a lot.

You're probably better off with am5 (or am6 if not buying now), because a 5700x3d will be slower than a 5950x/5800x on a few games and minimal improvement on a lot. A 9800x3d for example is always like 50-100%+ faster, so the $ cost per extra frame is much less.

[dire igloo]

Can't really judge whether there's an upgrade without knowing what you're using the PC for.

Also: even if there was an upgrade to be had, how do you like your 5950X's current performance?
If you're happy, why would you want to spend time, money and energy on an upgrade?

[willow pike]

satisfactory loves 3D vcache

[dire igloo]

As do Factorio, MSFS, BG3 and many other titles

[thin trout]

It does, but it's not so fond of losing 700mhz of core/cache clock (and other stuff benefits a lot less, or even gets hurt more by the clock reduction than helped by the cache)

[dire igloo]

Do we have CPU benchmarks for Satisfactory?

[thin trout]

5800x3d was a much better upgrade as it ran at 4450mhz rather than 4100(?) of the 5700x3d. So the clock loss was around 300mhz, rather than 650mhz.

[thin trout]

I don't have em going back that far as i have not plugged in any am4 board for years

here are latest gens for example

[dire igloo]

Source being you?

[thin trout]

i labeled it lategame but it's not a super heavy phase, it was my actual save in end p4

yeah

[dire igloo]

What CPU models are those?

[thin trout]

7950x3d and 9950x3d, they each have 1 standard and 1 vcache CCD

[dire igloo]

Was about to guess that

And I reckon you just disabled the respective other CCD with smth like ProcessLasso

[thin trout]

the 6000 mem OC was this with single rank 2x16

[thin trout]

in BIOS, there's a slight performance difference

[dire igloo]

Ah

[dire igloo]

Do you have xmp numbers too? Would be interesting to compare those to jedec and manual oc

[thin trout]

xmp/expo is usually 35-50% of what a manually tuned OC can do

e.g. https://i.redd.it/u9v98iu9wlac1.png

so for somebody who isn't tinkering with RAM OC, the 5200 JEDEC results are closer to what they will see.

[willow pike]

vcache is less sensitive to ram speeds / timings, and generally goes nyoom

these figures must have taken weeks

[thin trout]

indeed

[dire igloo]

The entire idea of extra cache is to decrease RAM dependency

[thin trout]

yeah, and it's a much better solution for workloads which are spilling over into RAM

Satisfactory, factorio etc though are not served well by even 96MB of cache, they would scale very well to 200MB++

[willow pike]

i hear zen 6 will use 12 or 16 core CCDs with equivalent L3 / vcache increase, from 96MB to 144MB or 192MB

[thin trout]

and probably inFO interconnect with lower latency to IMC (and thus mem) and hopefully more bandwidth while they're at it. At least keep the MB/s/core the same 😄

[willow pike]

yeah, like strix halo

i don't think the memory latency was any different on that but it was able to power on and off instantly

[thin trout]

it was lower (stated in interviews)

[willow pike]

unlike ye oldé serdes which you can't turn off

[willow pike]

oh neat

all hail info rdl

[dire igloo]

Just make a CPU with 16gb RAM built in

[thin trout]

but they still have weirdly narrow interconnects (so they can only move half of the theoretical max memory bandwidth to the CPU cores, and only 1/4 of the write to any CCD)

[willow pike]

maybe that's an EPYC thing, narrower interconnect means more CCD

CC deez nuts

[thin trout]

on epyc they have another variant CPU with double the interconnect width

but on consumer they dont

[willow pike]

fuck knows then lmao

[thin trout]

so we run ddr5 8200mt/s with 4100mt/s bandwidth, less BW than intel had on ddr4 8'th gen

which objectively doesn't kill game performance, but it's really bad for stuff like file compression and generally nonsensical i think

[willow pike]

wonder if it's a power efficiency thing

maybe desktop will go embiggened

[thin trout]

it is for sure, and also simply the amount of space that it takes to route the wires

but InFO basically deletes both of those problems

they have (ballpark) 10x power efficiency and 10x bandwidth per area efficiency

[willow pike]

ye, makes RDNA3 go brr

[thin trout]

they can move 10 channel ddr5 bandwidth, so arguing for a 2'nd channel worth of bandwidth feels a bit silly 😄

[willow pike]

probably no need to go info LSI

[twin dew]

It isn't direct halving.
But just result of IF frequency * bitwidth.
32bit read, 16 bit write per CCD currently.
Where those some low CCD amount Epycs get two links per CCD instead of just one.

[willow pike]

only apple uses that

and not very effectively imo

[twin dew]

Doubling the bit widths, so doubling the bandwidth.

[thin trout]

2x DDR5 mem channels are 128 B per cycle (read or write)

Fabric out of the IMC on the current IO Die is 64+64B

Fabric to each CCD is 64 + 32 B

[twin dew]

But the frequencies aren't linked or same anymore.

[thin trout]

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Both for some spec configurations and for OC, the best performance comes with UCLK=FCLK as that removes a clock jump and reduces latency by quite a lot. It's less of a reduction than it used to be, minus 3-4ns instead of minus 7-8.

e.g. for DDR5-8200 we use 4100 memclk, 2050uclk, 2050fclk (uclk=fclk sync)

For DDR5-3600 spec on 2DPC, they use 1800:1800:1800.

[twin dew]

Yeah, but those are just two points.
And almost anything else isn't synced.

Where the UCLK and MCLK depend on the RAM, and FCLK is then 1800-2200MHz depending on setup.

[thin trout]

The IF to the ring/L3/core area has a forced desync, but that's it. Just two clock regions. Intel has at least three.

[willow pike]

oh fun fact zen 5 doesn't have a ring

[thin trout]

You gain performance by setting fclk down to uclk, because of fclk=uclk sync benefit

[willow pike]

it's a mesh

[thin trout]

They have been very light on the details since zen 3 but it seems to have morphed over time from a bisected ring to more of a mesh yeah 😄

[willow pike]

yeah they didn't even tell people zen 3 was a ring

[thin trout]

they did unofficially

[willow pike]

"it's fine don't worry about it"

yeah i remember that presentation

[thin trout]

the interconnect/L3/core combined clock and the tiny latency is their largest competitive advantage atm. It's pretty insane. Intel has over double the latency doing some of the same things

[willow pike]

funny how amd make mesh work better than intel do, their mesh topology HEDT chips were fuckin' garbage at games

[twin dew]

Only in narrow range, few clock steps of the FCLK, and getting above that makes the desync better.

And for 6000MT/s RAM for example you would need to run the FCLK way down to sync in any realistic way.

Because 2000MHz isn't synced, it is 2/3.

[thin trout]

That's true for 3:2 sync because that barely confers a benefit (~1ns).

It's not true for 1:1 uclk=fclk sync, which has a far greater benefit (3-4ns).

For example 7800:1950:1950 is faster than 7800:1950:2200 in games because it has a lower latency. Despite the BW loss.

[twin dew]

Yeah, but point was, that only matters for those extreme memory OCs, or memory clocks way down.

[thin trout]

In the middle people use unsynced fabric (and it's the default for 1dpc) because the penalty is half of what it used to be, but for the best performance overall we do use uclk=fclk

[twin dew]

Not for memory speeds in between, as the FCLK would need to be WAY down to get any realistic sync frequency.

[thin trout]

yeah, it is just used for 1800:1800:1800 (3600mt/s 2dpc) or for higher clock like 7600 to do 3800:1900:1900 etc.

[feral drift]

Well games can vary a lot from MMO's (Like WoW), ARPGs, Satisfactory, F1 (on VR), Fifa..

The only reason which may not be CPU related, is that when playing F1 on VR - its can stutter alot..

From what I can gather its either CPU or GPU not being good at rendering 4K at 120 FPS - which is a lot to ask for the system i know..

But if 5700X3D was better at 4K - then the ~180 Euro investment would be a cheaper alternative, than to upgrade Motherboard, RAM and CPU to AM5

[twin dew]

So for "normal" DDR5 speeds, you cannot run synced FCLK UCLK without losing performance from that.

As the FCLK could be way higher than you can get with "synced" settings.

Either you need to run memory at extremely low speed, or extremely high speed.

to get good synced settings.

[thin trout]

Unsynced fclk is optimal from about 5000 to 7200mt/s

Synced below 5000, and over 7200

"normal" DDR5 speeds are pretty high nowadays, like AMD's 8200-8400 ceiling is bad because of reusing IOD from their first DDR5 controller and expected to rise closer to 10,000 end of next year.

[twin dew]

And what kind of voltage do the RAM need to run at that?

[thin trout]

no more than a regular expo profile

[twin dew]

Currently?
IIRC used to be 1.45+ V

Often 1.55V

[thin trout]

yeah, people run 1.45+ because it helps performance and doesn't hurt in any noticable way, but you don't have to

CUDIMM is supported on Intel and allows 6400-8000 at 1.1 - 1.2v

[dire igloo]

CUMM

[thin trout]

rumor is we have two competing ddr5-8000 1.1v CUDIMM imc's in 18 months

[twin dew]

Not that.
CUDIMM has redrivers for clock signal on each DIMM.

So the IMC needs way less driving power to get the clock signal to each memory chip.

[dire igloo]

It was an immature joke

[feral drift]

Disregard my message on the stuttering.. Just saw this on the latest news from EA on F1 25 :)

We are aware of occasional jitter/stutter issues when running F1® 25 in VR. This is currently under investigation with the development team.

[thin trout]

For higher DDR5 clocks you also have lower SOC voltage needed on the IMC.

E.g. DDR5-6400 with 3200uclk requires often 1.2 - 1.3+ SOC because of the 3200uclk being driven by SOC voltage

DDR5-8200 is only 2067 UCLK, which runs fine below SOC spec (1.1v).

So for some parts of the IMC, the most sensitive ones, higher clocks are actually easier in that way.

[twin dew]

As you only have the impedance of one chip (redriver) per DIMM.
Instead 8 or 16 chips per DIMM.

[twin dew]

Sorry, mixed with CAMM.

[willow pike]

cudimm is dumb as hell, more intel only BS

camm2 better

[feral drift]

But generally if upgrading to AM5 in future - going for X3D would be the better pick when Gaming is what i generally do i assume

[twin dew]

No, it is very much necessary thing.

And part of what RDIMMs have been doing for ages.

[thin trout]

it's only "intel only" because AMD is still using a 2022 memory controller, and CUDIMM wasn't ready in 2022.

[twin dew]

Basically CUDIMM is step between UDIMM and RDIMM.

[willow pike]

i'd be surprised if amd bothers to implement it on am5

[twin dew]

To get higher frequency with reliability with signal redrivers.

[thin trout]

for pushing the limits of OC, i've heard that CUDIMM doesn't help or can even hurt sometimes, but it makes it trivially easy to run DDR5 8000 on any board.

[twin dew]

Almost certainly coming in next IOD.

[willow pike]

would be better to integrate it into the DDR6 spec

whenever that comes

[twin dew]

Not on 9000-series as it used same IOD as 7000.

[thin trout]

They will do both

They need a second AM5 IOD anyway to do InFO.

[willow pike]

i will eat my words if they do so

[twin dew]

Chip input impedance, trace forks etc. for tons of chips are killer for high frequency signals.

[willow pike]

it still ends up being, in a practical sense, that intel pushed CUDIMM as a way to make arrow lake suck less

[twin dew]

CUDIMM puts redriver only for the clock signal, as cheaper RDIMM variant, instead of buffering all the command lines.

Which also removes the latency penalty.

CAMM in turn is just about making the impedance etc. signal propagation differences lesser.
The current contact type in DIMM slots causes too many reflections etc.

Again making higher frequencies easier to get to reliably.

[visual tree]

I thought using ERP at work was going to make my life easier but it's been becoming a nightmare recently....

[twin dew]

Yeah, because lot of those systems don't actually match how the business works.

[visual tree]

Apparently, someone made SAP workflow where purchase orders and invoices under €10000 need approval....

We literally had to pay 2 damn euros to a city and had to wait 2 weeks because of damn approval

Because of workflow, even a 1 eurocent invoice would need approval

And if the person responsible for approving invoices is on vacation, you are screwed

I would have paid those invoices myself tbh because some idiot designed a ridiculous workflow not realizing payments on time are extremely important

And when invoices are finally approved, there is a chance treasury department will randomly make a decision to block all payments for few days

[night girder]

Today I learned cruise ships need electricity for toilets to work.

[feral drift]

Guess theyre litterate when they say Water and Electricity turns things to shit..

[night girder]

I just watching a netflix documentary called "Poop Cruise" 🤣

Actually pretty amazing how everythign went so quickly to ... shit.

[feral drift]

Universal language i guess

[night girder]

Do you know the story of what happened to that cruise?

[feral drift]

No clue.. But on the topic, i got an idea of the plot :D

[night girder]

It's way crazier than that to me.

I think what stands out in the documentary, you have all the luxury, ice cream machines, casinos, cinema etc on a cruise.
But if you don't have electrical power ...

So 3000 people sitting on a ship, with all the luxury, no power, no food and you gotta have to poop in the bag.
Second day they start to scavenge. And then they got booze and it turns into some sort of orgy 🤣

Human creatures are freaking wild to me.

But I wont spoil the end, which is the best.

[visual tree]

And I thought my dad working on a bulk carrier before retirement was bad lol

They had satellite internet and it took literally 1 hour or more to send an image through whatsapp

[night girder]

I don't understand why there aren't failsafes for all of the situations I mentioned rofl.

It was a $420 million build.

[visual tree]

I hope we won't be having poop problems in a national ferry company but the ferries are already falling apart

There have been so many incidents with ramps falling down

[thin trout]

I do not recommend erotic roleplay at work

[visual tree]

Didn't know SAP implemented a new NSFW module lol

Btw, anyone ever ordered something from ebay and had delivery issues with Asendia?

Made my first purchase on ebay and already have problems with delivery. Package status has been stuck for like 2 weeks 😔

[tough owl]

Not in america

most sellers use USPS, while its kinda meh of a courier i've never had issues with it

[broken stratus]

Wtf is with this guy?

[tight citrus]

something something Spaghetti…

“homelab” made entirely of e-waste recycling rescues in progress

[safe trench]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/981545444448542800/1383194242175996074/attachment.gif

how dare you use old parts

you should be using the 5090 for that

[tight citrus]

So true, Pressure Conversion Cube

[feral drift]

5090 Quadro SLI that is..

Don't wanna see any screen tearing on that Linux terminal

[queen zodiac]

Fire hazard your beloved

[tight citrus]

igpu and Windows 10 is the best i can do for ya

[tight citrus]

I do not concern myself about such paltry things as a “Risk of Fire”. I have a candle. It is a Certainty of Fire.

[languid gulch]

wow. just had my earbuds desync by a tiny bit. thought i was losing my mind

[queen zodiac]

Its a miracle your house hasnt burnt down

[feral drift]

Its rough when you get lag spikes IRL

[tight citrus]

clearly the ritual candle is working to protect the computer then

[queen zodiac]

Real

[tight citrus]

thank you Omnissiah very cool

[languid gulch]

was like listening to 2 TVs at the same time, but one's across the house

[queen zodiac]

[languid gulch]

at first i thought they guy was overdubbing himself to transition to another scene

[feral drift]

oh .. you mean your L and R earbuds desynced from each other?

[languid gulch]

lol yea

throwing them back on the charger & letting them reset fixed it

[feral drift]

Well.. At that moment I don't think my brain would be braining.. Not like it does braining a lot.. But it would deffo cause a headache

[dire igloo]

Wild message to encounter without context

[languid gulch]

any spectacular discounts with Steam sales?

[visual tree]

Didn't find anything interesting so far: steamdb.info/sales/

GTA: SA Definitive edition? I see they are still trying to milk decades old titles....

God of War for €19,99 which is usually sold for €49,99 sounds like a good deal. Always wanted to try this game

[night girder]

Does it need an account? Because a lot of sony games are now unplayable without an account.

[visual tree]

Not sure tbh. Never owned a game which requires sony account

[night girder]

it's new froma few years ago?

Started with Ghost of Tushima, with backlash.

If there isn't a red box like that on the game, you good.

[twin dew]

And the full requirement might have been removed in last month or so.
As they started again allowing buying them in countries where you cannot have Sony Accounts legit.

[dire igloo]

Reminded me of the Helldivers 2 controversy

[twin dew]

Which this almost certainly confirms, that it isn't requirement for SP anymore.

[night girder]

It was plain dumb from sony.

[dire igloo]

Fun times, loved the dev's reaction

[night girder]

you mean, the "we don't do anything" reaction afaik?

[night girder]

Only a few months ago.

[visual tree]

Looks like PSN network is not required for God of War from what I read

[night girder]

Sony is scummy like EA and the rest of em.

There isn't a big triple A company I can recommend anymore.

[dire igloo]

No, the "please keep voicing your criticism, we hear you but can't do anything sadly. Maybe Sony will listen to you instead of us"

And when Sony removed the account requirement, Arrowhead gave a celebratory cosmetic to all players

[night girder]

Oh, I was thinking about the other criticisms they received;

[dire igloo]

Doesn't the N in PSN stand for network? If not, what's it for?

[night girder]

playstation network?

[visual tree]

Yeah, looks like you need PSN account for God of War: Ragnarok on PC

But they might have removed that requirement

[night girder]

It's just the name they gave it back with the playstation and now they use it everywhere.

[dire igloo]

Yeah, I think there was another controversy afterwards, but I totally forgot what it was.
Went against devs tho, not publisher

[night girder]

anti cheat

because it was kernel level.

[dire igloo]

Ah, yeah, that one

[thin trout]

Kernel level anticheat sucks, and is for some reason mostly on mediocre games

[dire igloo]

I remember having a discussion about that cuz it's a PvE game but with possible sabotage via PvP

[thin trout]

a lot of gems like Satisfactory and BG3 don't even have DRM or anticheat at all

but other PVE games insist on kernel level

[dire igloo]

tbf, any cheats you'd want for those games are just readily available as mods

[night girder]

This, that's one of the arguments that it's a singleplayer game, that it shouldn't install root AC.

Not saying I agree, disagree with it, but I read a lot of steam forums.

[thin trout]

Point is, singleplayer / co-op games don't need extremely invasive anticheat which messes up your computer, steals your privacy, and makes the game run worse. They arguably don't even need anticheat at all.

[night girder]

What I've read about it, Helldivers did need anti cheat.

[dire igloo]

It's not Singleplayer, it's up to 4 people in multiplayer. And you co-op with all other players through global missions.

But it's still PvE

[night girder]

People getting boosted, getting resources, claims that 10% are hackers/cheaters.

Someone telling a story their friend got a shit ton of stuff, without even asking for it.

If you start messing with a games economy, it collapses making it not fun for anyone. And eventually the game dies.

[dire igloo]

You can sabotage your party with PvP and you could gain mission progress much faster than the missions intended, ruining the collaborative fun for other players

[night girder]

I think the main issue was for a lot of people, what anti cheat, and how invasive it was.

If they said; anti cheat is turned on when you go into multiplayer, it would be different.

[dire igloo]

The game's economy isn't that critical, other people's economy in the game is.
If you cause someone else to progress rapidly and inflate their resources, you ruin their fun

[night girder]

But also, why would that player even buy stuff from other players? You see my point?
If trading is possible, other people missing revenue. It's like a real economy.

[dire igloo]

Your examples don't compare to HD2 tho which was my point.
Neither game has global progress

[thin trout]

One of the up-and-coming RTS games (Stormgate) was ruined in my eyes by deciding mid-development to force kernel level anticheat to play singleplayer / co-op (and that's truly opt-in co-op, none of this global progress stuff)

[dire igloo]

HD2 is always multiplayer because you completing a mission on a planet means that planet receives progress globally.

They'd have to make a "for fun arena" where your gameplay doesn't progress the global campaign and you can only play with closed/invite-only parties

[night girder]

I remember the days where we had a choice. There was this match browser, You could see what sservers required anti cheat.

• You could join a server a server without it. All good. You might play with ahckers/cheaters.
• You could join a serrver with anticheat, but that required you to install it too and to run it. Else you can't get into the server.

Games gave people way more options in the old days.

[dire igloo]

There is no trading in HD2, not to my knowledge.
But resources you receive during missions are shared.

So if I play with a cheater and I now got an inflated bank account, my progress is ruined in that I can just buy everything and don't have anything to grind for any more

[night girder]

Ok, fair. I was just thinking of the possible* impact of cheats on a game.

@visual tree I would sue mate. They just blatantly stole your avatar and used it for a game!

[dire igloo]

A lot of old-timey gaming was among enthusiasts. Cheaters cheated primarily to break the limits of the game.
Cheaters nowadays play for the adrenaline rush, the complaints of others and to be ranked higher.
Cheaters facing cheaters ruins that

[dire igloo]

HD2 is a really niche scenario.
A PvE co-op shooter with 4-player lobbies - but also globally synced progress from all lobbies and with friendly fire

[night girder]

I forget the name of the anti cheat. Very basic stuff. Punkbuster!

[dire igloo]

It's what makes the game great

[night girder]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PunkBuster

[dire igloo]

But also what makes it hard to compare to others

[dire igloo]

Isn't that somewhat easy to circumvent nowadays?

[night girder]

I am talking 25 years ago 😉 I haven't seen punkbuster in ages 😄

[visual tree]

Oh, I remember PunkBuster from Battlefield 2 and some other games I forgot

[dire igloo]

But the best solution for cheating isn't bans or shit like that, it's public ridicule

[night girder]

And giving people options.

[dire igloo]

That too

[night girder]

Let cheaters cheat an a cheat server, I don't care 😄

[dire igloo]

Cheating is less of an issue if you give cheaters an outlet

[night girder]

It can be even fun tbh 😛 Especially with ingame cheats. Which was a thing too.

I remember some games where you had to do button combos to unlock cheats. Like bobble heads 😄

[dire igloo]

Which is why there is no anticheat in SF or BG3 - the devs don't need to stop you from cheating, you can just cheat.

Reminds me of Screencheat:
PvP shooter where every player is invisible but you see every player's POV on your screen

You have to cheat to win in the game

[night girder]

In the end, for a lot of games, people all pay for it. People all want to have fun. The definition of fun is just different for people.
Some want fair game.
Some have more fun with cheats.

How do you find the balance as a developer. Because both can provide revenue for your company.

And personally, because of the account requirement and the anti cheat drama, I skipped helldivers 2.

[dire igloo]

Or simple command line stuff or file edits.
In Farming Simulator it was quite easy to gain large amounts of money by just editing a text file - still felt like doing smth you're not supposed to

[dire igloo]

Did they lift the region lock btw? I remember that Sony left it in place even after announcing they skipped the account requirement

[night girder]

That's a lot of warnings for a game 🤣

but no clue if it's still region locked.

[dire igloo]

Also, I don't really have that much of an issue with kernel-level anti-cheat. Yes, it's invasive and a potential security risk.
But frankly, I'd rather play a fun game than miss out on it out of principle

[night girder]

But they have to do something.

[glossy glacier]

iirc they lifted it recently?

[night girder]

That was partly the issue, people really didn't trust it.

[dire igloo]

Yeah, it was a lesser known name in the anti-cheat business

[night girder]

and the reply from the developers was not ideal either.

nProtect GameGuard (sometimes called GG) is an anti-cheating rootkit developed by INCA Internet.

**INCA **Internet Corporation (Korean: 잉카인터넷), also known as nProtect, is a corporation which sells computer software. INCA Internet was founded by Young Heum Joo, the current CEO and President of INCA Internet, in 2000. It offers anti-virus, anti-spyware, game security, and unified corporate security. It is headquartered in Seoul, Republic of Korea.

[dire igloo]

A bigger issue imo is if the anti-cheat doesn't work.
Uninvasive but useless is fine, as is invasive and effective - but if cheating is a rampant issue even with klac, that's just horrible

[night girder]

A unknown south korean company installing root anti cheat?

That's for a lot of people ... a bit of a trust issue.

[glossy glacier]

#StayOutOfMyKernel

[dire igloo]

tbf, "unknown" is a psychological issue, not a technological one
I've had people say they didn't want an SSD from Teamgroup or Kioxia because they didn't know the name so they didn't trust the brand

[night girder]

These are the very first replies on a dev addressing the concerns. People are just skeptic.

[twin dew]

Unfortunately that is only way to detect kernel level cheats, which anyone with Admin access to their own computer can use.

[dire igloo]

If you can assess the quality of the product, the name shouldn't matter

[night girder]

And then you have to ask, how many just want to troll. And see the game fail for whatever reason.

[dire igloo]

First 4 people are talking about KLAC in general, only the 5th one goes into specifics

And they only said "shoddy reputation" which for me needs elaboration before I consider it a valid argument

[night girder]

It was such a mess. I think it settled fine though.

People who don't want it, didn't buy it or left.

People who don't mind, are still playing the game probably?

But the reputation of anti cheat company seems important.

[dire igloo]

It's always a trade-off too: how many players do you lose because cheaters ruin their fun vs how many do you lose cuz they don't want klac?

[thin trout]

The devs don't need to stop you from cheating in an RTS campaign either, but they still do it - with the most extreme and expensive methods

[dire igloo]

imo, no. Generally speaking, brand reputation matters for customer support quality, not product quality.
With software, "support" does include closing vulnerabilities and providing regular updates with good compatibility.
But a brand's reputation shouldn't be about whether there are issues or not, it's how these issues are handled

[night girder]

Yeah, and to correct myself even further, I posted a graph of a drop off from the playerbase.
WHile I do believe the drama has to do with it. Those drop offs is normal for a lot of games.
A "healthy game" in my opinion, mostly has a graph that has ups and downs.

Game brings out patch, people start playing for a bit.
Over the weeks people lose focus/interest and play something else.

This becomes a pattern.

But the playerbase of helldivers 2 seems to be hit very hard. They went from 400K to about wahat 100K at most?

[night girder]

I don't think what you say matches reality. I agree it shouldn't matter. But it does.

[dire igloo]

People care about it, that's a different thing for me

If something matters, it means that it has an actual impact.

At least that's how I use that word

[night girder]

John Mcafee? And his anti virus sums up what I wanted to say about reputation 😄

[dire igloo]

If something matters, people should care about it.
If something doesn't matter, people shouldn't care about it.
But whether or not people care about something says nothing about whether or how it matters

[night girder]

When it comes to protecting your system, from anything, I do think reputation matters.

How many people around the world heard of Norton anti virus?

Regardless if it's still a solid product or not. With good support or not.

[dire igloo]

You need to separate reputation of a brand and reputation of a product

[night girder]

I know, and in a lot of cases I would agree, just not here.

People don't think like that.

[languid gulch]

i suspect a lot of reputation is just because stuff is preinstalled bloatware

[night girder]

And adds. And whatever, just name branding.

[languid gulch]

ads, corporate contracts, and prebuilt bloatware

[night girder]

I wonder what would have happened if helldivers 2 went for a well known anti cheat like "easy anti cheat".

everyone knows that little blue bear right? 😄

[dire igloo]

What people think of a brand matters in two contexts:

1. Market predictions
2. Judging quality of customer service

[night girder]

I doubt that it would have received same backlash. Because reputation.

[languid gulch]

we could just invest in a decent internet 2.0 base code with built in security, but nah

[night girder]

Aren't we, the whole world, trying to do the opposite? Limit the freedom of the internet? 😄

So adding more security to the internet sounds like a nightmare for those who want to have more control over it.

[languid gulch]

seems like it

or selling access to the highest bidder

[dire igloo]

If a product has ads, that's something which isn't affected by people's opinion.
You can find out how many ads there are and you can judge for yourself whether that's acceptable.

Some people think a simple footer banner is too much, others are fine with it

Whether or not there are "too many ads" is a subjective call that you can't rely on other people's opinions for

[dire igloo]

But then again: what if GG is the better anticheat?
Better SLA, better integration with the game, less performance hit, less data access through the Kernel, etc

Brand recognition and product quality can be complete opposites

[languid gulch]

i think something massive and out of everyone's control is going to happen, like a Carrington event, and we'll have to rebuild it all anyway

hopefully better

[dire igloo]

Companies are. Plenty people are fighting against it actually - mastodon is a great example

[night girder]

You saw the comments.

Did you see any rational arguments there?

[dire igloo]

I saw one comment with zero elaboration.
The other 4 didn't go over GG's reputation

[night girder]

Some people read Korea and tap out. Sorry to put it so blunt. But that's how I perceive it.

That's my point!

Jumping directly to an invasive bit of unsecurable "trust me bro" kit, running in ring zero, that widely lacks community trust and is synonymous with shady Korean shovelware doesn't seem like a necessary - or very wise - decision.

[dire igloo]

There might've been rational arguments had the people elaborated a bit more.

"Aren't you aware of GG's reputation? Game XYZ used it and [bad thing] happened because of it."
Add a source and now you're making an excellent point

[night girder]

I mean, it's just bandwagon panicking.

[languid gulch]

games like that have been around for decades, not including basic anti-cheat is a corporate choice

[mental oriole]

"Just make the client less dumb" 🤣

[languid gulch]

yea that's something that needs to be developed in alpha or before, having it go live like that is them making a choice to guarantee it

[night girder]

@dire igloo I think I understand the points your making, and I agree with them.
Just from what I've seen on the steam forums people weren't very rational about this whole case.
And I think the reputation/how-well-known of the AC played a part. Together with it being Kernel.
Should it have played a part is up for debate.

[night girder]

Just make the game not run cheats. Easy.

[twin dew]

Well, sanity checking the stuff one clients sent, either on the server or in the other clients should be pretty basic thing to do.

[mental oriole]

Anyone doing a server client model

NEVER TRUST CLIENT DATA

[dire igloo]

invasive bit of unsecurable "trust me bro" kit, running in ring zero
That's just any klac, different discussion

that widely lacks community trust and is synonymous with shady Korean shovelware
needs elaboration and evidence - low community trust and bad reputation can just be a bunch of stupid babies whining about klac. This is parroting.

[twin dew]

That SHOULD be the case, but lot of games aren't doing it.

[languid gulch]

the cheaters are still definitely to blame for their actions, but the company choosing not to include adequate (or even basic) protections is 1 step short of actively assisting in the cheating

[night girder]

ever.

[mental oriole]

Because it's slow.

[night girder]

Oh good point Cuyar. They should have shipped game with AC maybe to prevent drama?

[languid gulch]

trying to pile something that important on top of everything else would cause a fuckton of issues

[dire igloo]

fckn German internet taking minutes to send a message

[languid gulch]

at the company, whoever didn't think that people would cheat in a multiplayer competitive, or didn't think it would be a problem, or decided to kill off including anti-cheat in the game, should be fired

to me that level of neglect is definitely a fireable offense

[night girder]

sounds like a lack of experience among devs.

or the devs with experience had to shut up / got ignored.

[dire igloo]

Some good points (make the client less dumb), some nonsensical ones (comparing to DRG).

A less dumb client means easier client-side cheating. If you keep that local, fine. If you manage to make the server think your SMG is shooting auto-cannon rounds, the less dumb client is now overwriting plausibility checks.

Also: what if the cheater tricks the server into thinking they're playing normal with three cheaters in the lobby?

[languid gulch]

a fireable level of incompetence

[night girder]

not sure if the developers are to blame though.

someone above them could have blocked the AC plan.

some stupid manager or something

[languid gulch]

was it titanfall II that would send cheaters to their own "cheat all you want" servers?

[night girder]

"Anti cheat is too expensive, scrap that"

Call of duty has bots that hunt down cheaters.

[languid gulch]

oh exactly. could have been a dev not thinking of it, or a corpo declaring it to be too expensive. in any case, fireable

[night girder]

Official bots if not mistaken. If the game detects cheaters, it sends bots after them that keep on killing them.

fight fire with fire.

[languid gulch]

with how much these companies rely on reputation for their initial income, having cheaters show up like fleas is a fantastic way to bankrupt a company

[night girder]

pubity.com/activisions-ai-to-hunt-down-cheaters-in-call-of-duty-black-ops-6/

[mental oriole]

oh no

[dire igloo]

Something that HD2 has over many other games: weapons aren't customizable. The Diligence rifle has one statblock and one statblock only.
So you'll have an easier time plausibility-checking stuff like bullet damage, bullet spread, fire rate, etc

[night girder]

I know TF2 for sure has bots hunting down cheaters. But there was another game.

[languid gulch]

so glad i don't play any of those types of games. given the quality of AI we've seen elsewhere, i suspect we'll see the first of those games completely killed off by its own AI kicking customers within the first year

[dire igloo]

Take away the power fantasies and ranked benefits

An excellent point I've seen recently: P2W mechanics are just dev-approved cheating.

[languid gulch]

yup

well, it's really just outright bribery

and i'm yet to see one of those games as worth playing

[night girder]

Ah I found it!

These are systems that will be active from the launch of Modern Warfare 2 and Warzone 2, and they aim to make the experience of playing a game as miserable as possible for cheaters without an outright ban. This allows the Ricochet team to analyze the behavior of cheaters to hopefully further improve security. These mitigations are Damage Shield (causes cheaters to deal minimal damage and make their weapons effectively useless), Cloaking (causes players hit by a cheater to become completely invisible and silent, making it significantly harder to get kills), and Disarm (detected cheaters will have their weapons removed, including their melee weapons and fists, during a match).

Ricochet anti cheat system 😄

Especially disarm is funny 😄 But sucks if you aren't cheating but game thinks you are and removes your weapons lol.

Atleast it's thinking out of the box. I find it a funyn idea.

[feral drift]

Anti Cheat System.. Violating your Kernel for over 25 years

[night girder]

feels like I have this discussion so many times in different forms or another

safety vs privacy, global in society

[twin dew]

The real pain point is in having to trust the quality level of the kernel drivers coding to not be security hole, and the software itself to not to be data leech.

[feral drift]

Well.. I dont wanna mention Crowdstrike on this topic :D

[willow pike]

the decision has already been made, windows will disallow kernel access

oh fuck off link remover

blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2025/06/26/the-windows-resiliency-initiative-building-resilience-for-a-future-ready-enterprise/

Next month, we will deliver a private preview of the Windows endpoint security platform to a set of MVI partners. The new Windows capabilities will allow them to start building their solutions to run outside the Windows kernel. This means security products like anti-virus and endpoint protection solutions can run in user mode just as apps do. This change will help security developers provide a high level of reliability and easier recovery resulting in less impact on Windows devices in the event of unexpected issues. We will continue to collaborate deeply with our MVI partners throughout the private preview.

windows will now manage anything that wants to interface with the kernel, rather than letting anyone jack into the entire goddamn OS with one click

the days of anti cheat and anti virus programs infesting your operating system like an alien parasite are over

they were gonna implement this in the Vista days but didn't out of fear the EU would label it anticompetitive; after crowdstrike, the winds have changed

[glossy glacier]

one good thing from the crowdstrike incident i guess

[visual tree]

I should have installed blocktube extension. I was browsing youtube and someone might have made a thumbnail spoiler which ruins everything

[night girder]

How does a thumbnail spoil a whole video?

[visual tree]

If you have a general idea about the movie/series and you see a thumbnail with one of the possible scenarios, you kinda ruin everything

Not going to mention which series I am talking about but from the thumbnail I can see that the main character will die

Unless it's just clickbait but we will see later

[night girder]

Woop woop 8 new emoticons. Thanks Apple!

Delusional company.

[feral drift]

Well who's at fault..

The idiot who produces the product.. Or the idiot who purchases the product? :D

Send from my iPhone

[twin dew]

And those are almost certainly just supporting more standardized Unicode Emojis.
Which keep getting added to the standard.

Seems to be adding support for Unicode Emoji 16.0 new characters over 15.1

[feral drift]

Well I would give Letterdief... Its a delusional company..

If they were in Sahara, they would sell iSand and people would stand in long queue to get their share of iSand...

[twin dew]

And that would not be case of delusional company.
That would be the case if people didn't buy the stuff when they tried.

The Apple reality distortion field is immence asset they have, but it doesn't make the company delusional themselves.

[night girder]

I think I am allowed to;

1. Own a Apple product.
2. Criticize that product.

Better than not owning such product and still shitting on it on the internet*, but having no clue what your talking about, having no hands on experience with the product and just rehashing what you read on reddit.

Not pointing at anyone here.

And last I want to add, companies changes throughout time.

I could have had a good experience with Apple and its products 10-20 years ago. Doesn't mean I have a good experience now.

[twin dew]

And my point was just that they added support for newer Unicode version in that update, nothing weird.
Same emojis are coming to other OSes or have already been added.
And that the company doesn't count as delusional in my mind.

[night girder]

You don't get it.

Look at the fucking update, it's a joke.

Meanwhile, the music.app, which replaced iTunes years ago, is still riddled with bugs.

• Doesn't always show artwork.
• When scrolling too fast you get into the void, literally, you keep scrolling into nothingness and you can't find your songs
• Sometimes music.app starts playing songs in slow motion. Nobody has a idea why.

Last update; never. Because it was written by junior developers @ apple. And apple lost vs spotify so they gave up.

Why, replace, a perfect working music player, with garbage as a billion dollar company ... I don't get it.

2019 .... that's 6 years to fix a few little bugs!

But atleast they added fucking support for a robot vacuum cleaner.

[feral drift]

Which most likely has its own app also...

[night girder]

"option to sort albums by Date Modified" ... really???

You add that to the OS patchnotes. To fill it up or what?

It must have taken 10 developers and a few months to write that feature.

/end apple rage (and that's why I said they are delusional, because nothing makes sense to me as a daily user for 10+ years)

[pure karma]

Which ones

[twin dew]

https://emojipedia.org/emoji-16.0

[pure karma]

I dont even have it lol

[twin dew]

Discord has much lesser emoji set than current Unicode or most OSes have.

It isn't using OS stuff, but its own images etc.

[night girder]

remember the age when everyone started to replace the gun emoticon with waterguns?

because of violence or something.

🔫

and meanwhile GTA 6 (one of the more violent franchises) gets released in a few years.

[night girder]

I haven't seen many cases like this. The GPU fans next to the edge of case for cooling.

Also seems to have some sort of dust filter.

[safe trench]

has anyone ever fucking used this one emoji?

[queen zodiac]

Yes

Me just now🤥

[languid gulch]

ok i 100% interpreted that as band-aid & not a pinocchio nose

[queen zodiac]

Wild

[safe trench]

as in a serious way

[winged valley]

I saw the weirdest overvoltage protection I've ever seen before today

Fixing a laptop that wouldnt power on and sparked when you plugged in the charger

Long story short an avalanche diode sat between DCIN and ground, said diode shorted internally

Pulled the diode and laptop runs fine. Unfortunately I can't source a new one

[charred relic]

mouser doesn't have it?

or Tayda

Not sure specifically what they stock but I order a lot of parts from both of those places.

[winged valley]

cant identify it

no schematic

[charred relic]

ah

Fortunately I always have a specific part number or at least the specs

[winged valley]

My meter doesn't measure diode high enough on a working one to be able to tell lol

[pure karma]

no but its unique

[charred relic]

"Amazon Basics Multipurpose Copy Printer Paper 92 Bright, Truckload, 8,400 Reams, 20000, 840 Cases, White, 8.5" x 11"

In case anybody needs some printer paper...

$33,915.00, only about 4 bucks a ream, bargain

[feral drift]

Can u doordash deliver it? :D

[charred relic]

Or this could be yours for only $1,869.60

I do need to get some paper... but I don't forsee buying an entire truckload or pallet

the 10 ream box on the other hand...

[pure karma]

thats an entire forest of paper

[charred relic]

lol

[pure karma]

What would you even print with that much paper other than waste

[charred relic]

The freight forwarder I worked for ordered it by the pallet, but we were a warehouse and had room for it lol

well multiple pallets

[safe trench]

you can buy 275 gallons of EvapoTunge™ for where to buy!

[charred relic]

save big, buy in bulk!

[feral drift]

Not sure which is worse... Paying "where to buy" or.. Paying "Contact sales for quote"

[charred relic]

contact sales always means it's going to cost a fortune

[feral drift]

Not to mention, the 2-4 week wait time before Bob contact you to ask default questions

[charred relic]

what if where to buy always leads to contact sales...

[twin dew]

Very common solution AFAIK.
And very common way for it to break when it triggers.

Cheap, reliable in protecting rest of the system.

And unlike MOV, doesn't die from repeated lower energy discharges, just cannot handle as high energy without going into that permanent short.

Also works as input polarity protection when not using two-direction TVS.

By shorting the input.

So unidirectional TVS is very common solution on electronics.
PSUs usually use MOVs.

[twin dew]

And any TVS with right case size and breakdown voltage over the charger input voltage should work fine, available from any electronics component retailer.

So both local ones, and the big distributors like Digikey, Farnell, Mouser, etc.

As in that specific use case, the exact capacitance etc. don't matter.

[soft bloom]

how likely that sound polution from neihbours peaking at 293Hz is a mining rig with some kind of high speed turbine?

[visual tree]

Omg, I hate people who think a certain brand creates top-quality products just because the company said so....

Mother bought Hansgrohe faucet for bathroom because she read it's a top-tier faucet manufacturer. The faucet was expensive and now it's leaking after 5 years

[twin dew]

Spare parts availability?

[visual tree]

On the other hand, we have cheaper Grohe faucet in the upper bathroom which still lasts and doesn't leak

[visual tree]

There is a catch with Hansgrohe. If you want to repair or replace some part, you have to buy hangrohe service kit which costs €80....

[twin dew]

How much are they used compared to each other?
There are parts in faucets that are consumables and only last certain amount of movements.

[twin dew]

So crap as manufacturer just from that.

[visual tree]

Both are used pretty much all the time

It's funny how cheaper Grohe lasts longer than the expensive Hansgrohe which is overengineered crap imo

[dire igloo]

Form over function

Not surprising

[visual tree]

Agreeed. I got pissed when my mother bought Hansgrohe because I knew they are expensive because of brand and not because they last longer

[twin dew]

Oras is the most common in Finland in almost any price range, and they sell (almost?) all parts as spares individually.
Less for the models with two separate valves.
The combined flow & temperature valve seems to be about 40-45e for most of the models.
The various seal kits around 10e.

[visual tree]

She basically bought this and it's a nightmare to fix:

Ever saw this switch? Almost every house had this exact switch before renovations:

In my case, first switch for the boiler never worked 😅

[mental oriole]

wtf

[visual tree]

We also had dual switch for a single lamp. Never understood this thing

Only one out of two switches was working

Worst nightmare were electricians using the same wire color for both neutral and live

[mental oriole]

wtf, almost beats my doppelganger grounded outlets.

[visual tree]

They used the proper color for grounding though

[mental oriole]

Mine looks grounded, but are not.

🙃

[visual tree]

Hope the apartment/house at least has grounding rod so you can fix the outlets later

[mental oriole]

Kitchen/bathroom is grounded properly because law requirements, but my other rooms have these doppelganger outlets. I have to fix one day but meeh. have to hire electrician to do it...

Idiots who reneovated before should just have done it proper.

[visual tree]

Back in 1988, my dad did a mistake and went for one-pipe central heating system which is no longer used. Can't install heat pump because it's only compatible with two-pipe system

Good thing our house has a three-phase connection

Contractors were once surprised when they noticed they could plug a cement mixer in our garage

[night girder]

Have you ever seen this?

||Also, stupid to add two buttons for this use case. ||

[visual tree]

Wtf is this crap 💀

It's like they never heard of boot menu

[pure karma]

Hdd moment

I need to get one of those usb adapters lol

[night girder]

That's to not bother with boot menu.

GRUB, or GNU GRand Unified Bootloader, is a boot loader package used primarily for Unix-like operating systems, allowing users to select and boot different operating systems or kernel configurations on their computers. The most common version in use today is GRUB 2, which offers enhanced features and flexibility compared to its predecessor, GRUB Legacy.

[visual tree]

Guess the setup above is if you are too lazy to pick OS in boot menu (or set default one to boot from unles picked otherwise) lol

Don't have much experience with GRUB but It can't be that complicated it forces you to install 2 separate flip switches for each OS

The biggest nightmare on the picture is Dell logo though

Had Dell Optiplex in college and they suck. The company I work for also gives dell laptop to most employees

I have issues mostly with taskbar freezing and acrobat reader crashing all the time although I am not sure if that's problem with windows or dell

Biggest nightmare was college administrator who had no clue about computers buying a PC at the grocery store chain and later bragging about how she saved money for the college

No wonder PC was cheap, it was the slowest PC in college

[night girder]

What happens if you turn on both windows and linux I wonder?

What happens if you don't turn on any button.

[twin dew]

Somehow I expect those are physically connecting/disconnecting power to separate drives.

[soft bloom]

maybe these are physical oewr switches for separate drives?...

[soft bloom]

maybe, one day, I will read till the end before replaying to first unread

[sterile plinth]

I tried to clone my disk to a 2nd equally-sized disk with clonezilla, but the 1st disk was actually 1024gb and the 2nd disk was 1000gb so i cant do it.

My goal is to move my windows installation to my 2nd disk. If I simply clone the windows EFI partition and windows C partition to my 2nd drive what are the chances that it will work? (considering the C partition will be in a different spot)

[twin dew]

As long as the origin partitions don't exist anymore, or their GUIDs get changed, should work fine.

As bit-by-bit clone will have same GUID for two partitions that causes major issues.

As that EFI partition bootloader loads the next stage by that GUID.

As example.

[glossy glacier]

Isn't there a setting in clonezilla to adjust partition sizes if possible?

[sterile plinth]

the issue is im not willing to take the risk of deleting the origin partition

as for changing its GUID, wouldnt i have to do the same on the windows efi partition for the boot entry? And there's no easy way to do that..

[twin dew]

Point would be to change the GUIDs for the original partitions.

[sterile plinth]

But, I need to make sure the original partition is still bootable in case something goes wrong

if i just change the GUID of the original partition, then the windows EFI (on the original disk) wont be able to find it (and boot into it)

[twin dew]

Do the copy.
Disconnect original drive.
Do test boot.

Decide what to do for longterm.

Or use more advanced copy software that does the GUID change and boot config update part of the copy.

[sterile plinth]

know of any?

[twin dew]

And not bit-by-bit copy.

[twin dew]

Not even sure what CloneZilla does.

Seems to do more advanced by default, unless DD mode is used.

[sterile plinth]

oh god, i will need to plug and unplug everything twice

any other alternative?

I will look for more advanced clonezilla options

[glossy glacier]

Is the target drive a Samsung SSD?

[twin dew]

Yeah, the Samsung provided cloner is NICE for basic OS cloning.

IIRC doesn't even have to be Samsung drive as target, just needs to have one Samsung SSD in system, but not completely sure.

[glossy glacier]

I know it works with samsung as target.
Not sure with samsung as source
And no dice with none Samsung IIRC

[twin dew]

IIRC neither source or target needed to be Samsung.
Just that there was Samsung present.

But not sure.

[willow pike]

needs Samsung target

it didn't let me clone from Samsung to WD

[twin dew]

Ok, so I'm misremembering what I have done, or the limits have changed since then, as that was years ago.

[willow pike]

needed to use a linux mint USB, ddrescue (source drive was failing) and gparted to expand the partition

[sterile plinth]

im cloning from a teamgroup to a WD

[twin dew]

https://support-en.sandisk.com/app/answers/detailweb/a_id/6550/

SanDisk/WD OEM version of Acronis True Image

[willow pike]

i preferred an open source approach this time

besides the source drive was heavily corrupted

[twin dew]

Yeah, that was for had name.
When ddrescue is needed, it is needed.

[willow pike]

ddrescue was able to recover as much data as possible

then i secure erased it and got a nice replacement from Samsung, 990 pro rather than the 980 pro i had

[languid gulch]

it's supposed to be 46C here tomorrow

at least we're built for it. i can't imagine being in places like southern Spain where air conditioning isn't anywhere near as common

[visual tree]

AC has become very common in Europe in the last 15 years so I guess homes in southern spain (also the only desert in Europe) have AC

Even my cheapskate neighbor recently installed an AC who would never pay a dime for anything

Must have been fun sleeping in his house before AC....

They government made a mess here and banned installing AC outdoor unit on apartment building facade facing the street. If you have nowhere to install AC outdoor unit without breaking the law, you're screwed and your apartment will quickly lose in value

[mental oriole]

wtf

[maiden coyote]

With linux it's possible.. the worst ice had to do is reset secure boot because the machine wouldn't boot anymore.. or editing the guids of the swap partition because it had to be deleted and moved because it was at the end of the disk.

[visual tree]

The law doesn't apply to houses though

[maiden coyote]

So you can't have something like a minisplit on the wall facing the street?

For Europe to be as energy conservative as they seem.. I'd think they'd embrace heatpumps, because it's the most efficient way to heat your home.

[glossy glacier]

Yes and no
Its the up and coming pump, but some houss are too old for the tech

[visual tree]

You can't install anything on apartment building facade facing the street afaik (houses are exempt from this law)

I was also considering installing heat pumps but they are not compatible with old one-pipe central heating system and I would have to remove new flooring to run additional pipes

Imagine if you lived in a building where all sides are looking at the street. You would not be allowed to install AC outdoor unit anywhere in this case

Except the roof (you would need something like a chimney flue for the pipes though)

[languid gulch]

i suspect those compact room-by-room A/C units will become very popular

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3Yqu30QHkro
Well, this is fun.
be aware of colored stripe patterns in... well, everything.
wait, is this why looking through thin/threaded fabric make background feel like it's of similar color as fabric?

[dire igloo]

Yes, that's exactly that effect

[visual tree]

You mean fan convectors or mobile AC where you still need to connect a hose to a window although I heard they are terrible?

Fan convectors are excellent if you connect them to a heat pump

[languid gulch]

i mean the ones you mount on a wall and feed the coolant lines out to an external unit

[twin dew]

And those external units are not allowed in those protected buildings when visible in specific facings.

[languid gulch]

wow that's dumb

[twin dew]

The outside needs to stay as original.

[languid gulch]

"we could probably make this place livable, but there's a line in the CCRs" 🤣

[twin dew]

In the protected directions.

[languid gulch]

a lot of places will be abandoned because of a refusal to adapt

[visual tree]

Ah, you probably meant standard air conditioners which are most common here

[languid gulch]

the ductless ones, yea

[pure karma]

oh yea i have 2 of those now

[main locust]

those work great, had a couple installed back when i lived in california. i prefer em over central AC

[night girder]

😭 All these AC's isn't good you all know.

[languid gulch]

programmable central air is probably the happy medium

[night girder]

I mean I get it. It's hot. But you shifting the problem to other people in the long run.

[twin dew]

But necessary when outside air temp in shade hits 45C.

[languid gulch]

if i had 5 acres to lay down enough heat pump lines, i would

[night girder]

No! 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♂️ 🤦

[visual tree]

Almost everyone has that type here. Don't understand why they are called ductless when I can clearly see ducts though 🤣

[languid gulch]

it's because it doesn't have the big fat A/C ducting like central does

[night girder]

Necassary would mean, humanity wont survive. That's bs. Food is necessary.

[languid gulch]

not melting is also necessary

[main locust]

idk, i think i wouldve died if i didnt have AC during 45C summers lol

[night girder]

Should look into the effects of AC and climate change. Interesting stuff.

[twin dew]

Yes, you can live in that, with enough airflow and sweating.
But very uncomfortable and doing any actual work will not really be possible.

[languid gulch]

Boston has a higher carbon footprint than Phoenix 🤣

[visual tree]

This. I can't imagine life here without AC where temperature records are broken each year

[night girder]

That's total different than saying is necessary.

It makes our lives pleasant. And keep productivity up.

[languid gulch]

3am here

[night girder]

While ruining the planet further.

[languid gulch]

46 tomorrow

[night girder]

Anyway, I am going to sit by the water tomorrow. My natural AC 😉

[languid gulch]

my water would scald me

[main locust]

id argue a regulation is necessary to not run AC under a certain temp, like only being used 35C and up. kinda like how in sweden every apartment needs to be kept at a certain warmth during the winters by law

[night girder]

It's a big body of water 😄

[languid gulch]

my water heater doesn't turn on this time of year

[night girder]

oh like that. Huh? You have your water running on the outside of your house?

[visual tree]

If you are talking about refrigerant, new AC use R32 which is friendly to the environment

[languid gulch]

it's at least a lot more neutral than the old stuff

[twin dew]

Just the energy usage.
But in a way AC is the perfect user of solar.

At least if the evening use of AC is more limited once solar power droops and cuts off.

[languid gulch]

i do keep my A/C at what other people consider to be on the warm side

[night girder]

The IEA estimates that “space cooling” — mostly air conditioning but also fans — consumed around 2,100 terawatt-hours (TWh) of power in 2022.

For context, global electricity use in 2022 was around 29,000 TWh. That means AC uses around 7% of the world’s electricity.4 That’s nearly 20% of electricity use in buildings.

Also you have an effect by pumping more heat to the outside.

[visual tree]

I remember when people here would consider you a big criminal if you released old freon which is no longer used in the environment. Glad freon is no longer used because it's extremely bad for the environment

[night girder]

I think it was around 1-2 degree celcius, this further increases the snowball effect of global climate changes.

[languid gulch]

i xeriscaped my yard a couple years ago

saved a ton on water already

[pure karma]

someone rename the chat to off-topic-ac at this rate

[languid gulch]

🤣

i mean, it is tech

[night girder]

Yeah ...

[pure karma]

it feels like ac talk comes round more often than tech after all the recent events

[night girder]

since when is AC and global warming not tech/science.

Because it's hot? And the world is heating up?

But no. What we need.

Is you posting another screenshot of somethign you broke 😉

[languid gulch]

i throttled my 4090 to 325W

because it was definitely starting to cook the room

[visual tree]

Don't tease the devil

I think he survived 1 month without breaking anything afaik lol

[pure karma]

corection 6 days

...

[night girder]

Yeah, but that aint tech or science either. 🙄
Anyway have fun breaking hardware.

... poor Baldur.

[pure karma]

i think this screenshot i took forever ago sumerized my pc very well

everything improtant is in place just everything esle is smashed

but yea no surprisingly havent broken anything major recently other than my framerate but it is a monday after all so its probably bound to happen

[dire igloo]

Question is: where do you draw the line?
At which point do we sacrifice too much of our lives that it's not longer tolerable?

[dire igloo]

Every time it gets hot in summer, AC talk increases.
It's a neat correlation of temperature vs discussion

[night girder]

It's not a line I am drawing, it's a line that science draws. You all talk like this is my opinion.

[pure karma]

well obviously since it becomes a more relevant topic each summer

[night girder]

but I am really tired, of argueing science. You can look it up if you are interested to see what the effects of AC are on climate change.

[dire igloo]

It's not a line that science draws because it's a line that society has to draw.
And once society is involved, your opinion as an individual is too

[dire igloo]

I am aware of them. AC is a tool that helps you cope with an issue that the AC amplifies

But the issue is still there without AC

[night girder]

Well certain scientific models state;

1. Climate change will make planet unlivable and/or drastically change and we struggle to surive.
2. AC make the problem worse atm. Since it's a loop.

[dire igloo]

So if you're arguing AC vs no AC, it's a calculation of cost and reward

[night girder]

Now, you can argue AC is needed. But in the long run, if our planet is unlivable. Was AC necessary?
Isn't it just logic.

[dire igloo]

Different point: if we devised a plan to halt climate change, how big of a role would AC play?
And if we then look at how realistically we can make that plan reality, how big of a role would losing AC have?

I'm not arguing that AC is harmful to the environment, I'm arguing that it does too much good to be gotten rid of

[night girder]

In 2024 it was reported AC is about 3% of greenhouse gas emmission.

And it will tripple in 2050.

So, if that is true and the case, that is 10%? You decide how big of an impact that is.

We have a saying here in dutch "dweilen met de kraan open" it translates to: "mopping with the tap open".

[dire igloo]

GHG emission is tolerable if we make up for it by removing GHG from the atmosphere

And a prediction of AC-related GHG emissions tripling says more about the unpleasantness of the world and human reaction to that than ACs being problematic

[night girder]

You know what a snowball effect is right?

[dire igloo]

ACs are a coping mechanism.
An unhealthy one, but still a coping mechanism.
You can't remove it without providing another form of relief

[dire igloo]

We call it Teufelskreis in German (devil's circle)

[night girder]

And there is also the case, that rich households buy it. That don't need it as much as people really suffering from heat.

[dire igloo]

Don't get me wrong, people will need to make sacrifices in order to fight climate change.
I just don't think that ACs are a top priority there

Their effect will naturally reduce if we manage to reduce the problem through other means

[night girder]

I don't know if AC is the way to go. Maybe someone smart will come up with something better.
Better as in;

It keeps households cool with minimal impact on climate change.

Like house insulation etc.

[dire igloo]

Efficient building techniques can absolutely reduce or even remove the requirement for AC

But that works disproportionately better on new homes. Existing ones would need to be torn down or require large scale expensive renovations

[dire igloo]

This is an interesting statistic tho:
Intuitively, AC efficiency correlates with price. Cheap ACs are inefficient but more common cuz many people can't afford better.
And at that point, one could consider subsidies for efficient ACs to make them more affordable than inefficient ones.

There's some economic theory about leather shoes and paper sandals that could apply here in an adapted version

[night girder]

I wonder why African continent is not in those statics though. Or other places where it's really hot.

We Europeans can moan and sweat all we like, we know nothing about real heat I think 🤣

[night girder]

That is true. But I am worried that the focus on AC, stagnates other research into alternatives.

A bit how the world went for electrical cars, while there are alternatives.

And all those alternatives are put in the fridge right now.

[dire igloo]

Usually for lack of data or lack of comparability.
Put an African house in the UK and a UK house in Africa, see how livable they are

[night girder]

And AC is a fix, to a problem, while making the problem worse. Which is what I find so frustrating about it.

[dire igloo]

A lot of Europe wasn't built with 40+ temps in mind

[night girder]

The reeason I said that, was because I suspect it's quiet hotter there.

I wonder if they all use AC.

I wonder if they think it's necessary.

But that's me making assumptions. Maybe they prefer AC over food and medical care.

[dire igloo]

I like to think of it as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
Like ADHD people medicating themselves with (sometimes illegal) drugs or junkfood, etc

It makes the body worse but pleases the mind

[dire igloo]

Counterpoint: talk to Africans about the necessity of a space heater.
For when your house gets cold in winter and you need to bring up the temps before it gets too cold

[night girder]

True, but if I eat junkfood, I am harming my body. Not a whole planet?

[dire igloo]

They probably didn't build their homes with cold temps in mind and aren't really adapted to living in sub-15C temps

[night girder]

If you really want, you can trace it back to cows, and cows impacts on climate change. Which is the burger I ate. 🤔

[dire igloo]

You're financially supporting a harmful industry

[night girder]

And indirectly, me eating beef, is contributing to climate change.

[dire igloo]

Yup, very much so. Same for eating cheese btw

100g of cheese have a much bigger GHG footprint than 100g of pork or poultry

[dire igloo]

Anyways, the point I was making was this:
The "fix" is harmful, but its harm is more tolerable than the issue that's being "fixed"

[night girder]

We don't know that yet. It's not that we have fixed climate change.

[dire igloo]

Yes, ACs contribute negatively towards climate change, but without having AC, people's lives would become so miserable that they'd rather kill their planet

[night girder]

After having a debate for decades about accepting climate change in the first place we are slowly trying to halt it.
But some scientific models predicts its already too late.

[dire igloo]

And we haven't cured ADHD either - the point is that you can't remove a coping mechanism without providing another form of relief.
The negative short-term effects can't be too negative or people stop caring about the long-term issue

[night girder]

AHDH isn't a cause by humanity.

Climate change is.

One we cause, one we are responsible for. The other is the way nature created you at birth.

[dire igloo]

It depends on what you set as the goal.
There has already been irreversible damage and there will be more even if GHG emissions became zero over night.
The question is, how much damage are we willing to tolerate?

[night girder]

The fact humanity had a debate about the problem shows;

a) we were conscience about the problem (although a lot didn't want to accept it)
b) we could have done something sooner.

[night girder]

I follow this point. But I can't shake this feeling of frustration.

[dire igloo]

ADHD being considered a disability and requiring coping mechanisms is absolutely a problem caused by modern society.
In the right environment, ADHD people actually thrive and outclass any neurotypical people - but modern society was built around neurotypicals causing ADHD folks to suffer

[night girder]

...

So you going to argue ADHD is caused by other humans?

I know what you are saying.

But it's not the counter to what I said.

[dire igloo]

No, ADHD is just having a differently wired brain. It's not inherently a bad thing.

However, the main reason why ADHD people suffer is because the environment they live in doesn't accommodate for them

[night girder]

I never said it was a bad thing.

I said; natural vs problem created by humans.

[dire igloo]

I just don't think your dismissal of my comparison is appropriate, that's all.
ADHD isn't as big of an issue as climate change, but there are still a lot of parallels

[soft bloom]

if we call authropogenic impact on climat "climate change" then how are we going to name how our planet changed in the last 30 years on aspects that are not controlled by humanity? climate instability?

[dire igloo]

ADHD being a problem is caused by humans.
Without modern society being what it is, ADHD wouldn't be a problem

[night girder]

Sorry didn't mean too.

But I just don't agree if you state that ADHD is caused by humans.

[dire igloo]

ADHD itself isn't caused by humans.
The problem of ADHD is

[night girder]

That humans aren't treating people with ADHD with respect etc is a different discussion.

[dire igloo]

It's not, it's exactly the point I'm making

[night girder]

Well I never said that. I am purely talking action/reaction.

[dire igloo]

ADHD alone isn't an issue and it isn't caused by humanity.
However, the fact that ADHD is an issue and people with ADHD do suffer, THAT is caused by humanity

[night girder]

And while you keep referring to ADHD you neglecting X other mental ilnesses.

Who also get treated like garbage sometimes.

[dire igloo]

CO2 fluctuations alone don't cause climate change.
It's that humans contributed to it and created an environment that amplified it, that's what caused it to be an issue

[night girder]

Agree, but like I said above, it applies to a lot of mental ilnesses.

And even physical.

[dire igloo]

I'm not, I'm just using an example.
You don't see me saying "while you keep referring to ADHD you're neglecting X other global issues", so stop doing it yourself

[night girder]

I didn't pull the "ADHD is caused by humanity card" mate 🤣

I was just chill talking AC and the impact on climate change and the loop.

[dire igloo]

Yes and that's not the point I'm making.
I'm using ADHD as an example, one that I am very familiar with and that I know enough about for me to be using it to draw these parallels.

[dire igloo]

Neither did I, you said I did, but I repeatedly said I didn't

[dire igloo]

And this very same logic applies to ADHD

Other stuff too most likely, it's not exclusive. But it definitely applies to ADHD

[night girder]

I don't feel right about that, but it is what it is 🙂

I wonder, do we have any "cool pockets" in our earth? 🤔

I know the deeper you go, the hotter it gets. But I also wonder, is there a place, inside our earth, that stays relatively cool compared to surface temperature and planet earths core temperature.

[languid gulch]

i mean, caves do

even a meter underground is nice & cool even when it's 45 outside

[dire igloo]

Up to a point where underground caves become hot and humid due to how close they are to the core

[maiden coyote]

Minisplits

That's what they're normally called here at least.. r32, r1234yf, and a few others are flammable.. and transcritical co2 is.. very expensive

[mental oriole]

address is word aligned, so this field is only 30 bits.

Me ._. rn.

[twin dew]

So programmed for Apollo Guidance Computer with 15 bit words ?D

Or ARRA 1 or ARRA 2 with 30 bit words?

[mental oriole]

nah, dma stuff

[twin dew]

And I was trying to find an arch where 30 bits would fill some full amount of words to be "Word aligned"

[mental oriole]

😄

[twin dew]

With limitation to just 30 bits, and not 32.

[thin trout]

We'll live longer and be more capable of mitigating or solving the overall problem by eating that %, as it's not catastrophically high.

Building 10% more renewable energy capacity is a much smaller problem than having people die by the hundreds of millions and be unable to work for large periods of time due to fatal temperatures, which is the alternative.

[night girder]

I follow that logic. Only point I like to make is, afaik, temperatures are not fatal yet?
And there are other solutions than AC.

[thin trout]

35c at 100% humidity is fatal to a healthy human in hours

this has happened already in the US and EU, and is going to be happening for large %'s of the time in many countries some decades from now.

and yes there are many ways to mitigate extreme temperatures which can reduce the need for AC, but AC still plays a vital role

[night girder]

So you are arguing, AC is neccesary for humanity to survive these temperatures? Question already answered.

[thin trout]

Strictly? Like, we could live 50m underground and be mostly fine without it. But practically? Yes. It's much easier to use AC than to survive without it - just from a perspective of how many people are going to outright die, how many work hours would be lost and how much time and focus it would take to survive with alternatives e.g. building massive underground habitations.

[night girder]

"much easier to use AC than to live without" != necessary in my opinion.
I argued this morning, that to me, necessary means things like; oxygen, food, water.

[thin trout]

By that i mean that the alternative to AC is something like building underground housing to shield us from daytime temperatures - and that would take much more money, time and effort than using AC.

It would take critical time/money/effort that we need for actually e.g. decarbonising the rest energy sector instead, which is much more important.

[night girder]

I have nothing against AC units for example in homes with elderly people. Or in hospitals where people are in critical conditions.

Just it feels like we aren't nearing the critical stage to use AC yet, and it's more convenient, "pff it's too hot".

In the graph I saw, which didn't have all the data, most AC units are in Europe. And I don't think EU is the hottest continent.

Damn, never though I ever say that in my life. "EU isn't a hot continent" 🤣

[night girder]

I was in Tenerife last year, and I don't know what they did. But the hotel room had no aircondition and was very cool. 10-20 below outside temperature?
Somebody told me that it was because they used volcanic material to build the hotel and it's a good insulator.

[thin trout]

Stuff like shading sun from windows makes a huge difference as well

[night girder]

Tenerife is next to Africa btw and it just a volcano 😄

[night girder]

Indeed, it does a lot!

[thin trout]

just talking on country scales though, for dangerous heatwaves, is it easier to build AC and some renewable energy, or demolish everybodies house and rebuild it that way? There are lots of honest questions like that.

We had a nasty heatwave here in 2022 which killed many because they didn't have either. That's when we got our first AC unit, because parts of the house were in an unsurvivable temperature/humidity range. We're working on stuff too like window shields ofc.

[visual tree]

I saw an ambulance today while returning from work and think I saw 2 elderly people inside. Not sure if they called the ambulance because of heat stroke or something else

[night girder]

Well, here in my country, we do something different.

Every house being bought, is forced to renovate if they don't meet certain standards.

[visual tree]

Although doctors always tell elderly people not to go outside during hot weather but old people never listen

[night girder]

So buyers, not sellers, need to renovate a house if they buy it. And they know beforehand what they get into.

[thin trout]

In many countries it's too hot inside.

[night girder]

Then you get A-B-C-D-E-F score. A best, F worst.

You get x years to get A-B score else you get fines.

[thin trout]

That's a fairly good policy, it's just not large or fast enough to solve the problem alone basically. And there are problems like: What about the people who don't have enough money to do that or to buy/rent that now more expensive housing, where they will be homeless? Do you pay them more in benefits through higher taxes on everybody else? That's IMO a good policy too, but these kinds of things make lots of people angry.

[visual tree]

That too unfortunately

[night girder]

So it's possible for policy to gently force houses to insulate.

But you right, AC is a quick (dirty) solution

[visual tree]

Energy certification? We installed styrofoam 10 years ago and probably have B score atm

[night girder]

I can only speak for my country. Since I don't follow other countries that much.

[thin trout]

I just think that in many cases it's the least expensive solution (or at least, part of the least expensive solution). In terms of resources, man hours etc; not just dollar value.

[night girder]

Something about "clean up your own backyard before talking about anothers backyard" 🤣

[visual tree]

I think housing energy certificates are the same EU-wide but not sure

Laws are different of course

[night girder]

I see it as a sinking ship, and we patching it up with wooden planks, we know they going to rot, we know we still are sinking, but atleast the problem is fixed so we can continue the journey 😄

[night girder]

EU is a mess. EU can say "do this", and then x countries implement it slightly different lol

[thin trout]

sadly in part yes, but there are much worse offenders

[night girder]

Such as? (just curious what you going to say) 😄

[thin trout]

the same amount of effort, man hours, materials etc spent replacing coal power plants with solar, wind, even nuclear etc would help far more than spending those resources on fixing stuff up to need less AC.

[visual tree]

Ignore my previous message. Turns out different countries have different scales but all have the same concept regarding energy certification

[thin trout]

Do we eventually have to do both? Probably, but better to get the most gains from the least effort first - and as early as possible, because there is a large and lagged cumulative effect from greenhouse gasses.

[night girder]

Like I said, it's a mess haha 😄 It's a maze.

[night girder]

Ah, the low hanging fruit policy?

[thin trout]

If you have finite resources, it's always best to spend the least resources on the most impactful changes first.

AC used to prevent dangerously high temperature/humidity levels is pretty far down the list overall, in terms of how much impact it has and how much effort it takes to effectively replace it.

Very long way to go before we're dealing with "we fixed everything that was more negatively impactful or easier to fix than the AC, so lets get rid of AC to improve things further"

I honestly don't know if we'll ever even get there alive at all.

[visual tree]

Can't translate this but this is what a building/house energy certificate looks like here:

Underground houses are awesome since you don't need heating or cooling depending on the depth from the surface. Wish I lived in a hobbit house 😄

[pure karma]

you sure need heating and you need cooling if you have a pc so not really

[visual tree]

A PC will heat your home if you live in a really tiny house. If it's bigger, I doubt it would make a noticeable impact

[pure karma]

my pc can heat my basement to 30C even with the AC running 🤷‍♂️ 😅

[visual tree]

At least during winter. My PC is not enough to heat the whole room 😅

[pure karma]

or about 26-28 during regular gaming and not actively trying to heat the basement up for fun

[visual tree]

Must be going crazy overclocking GPU then lol

[thin trout]

The temperature underground is stable at about 11c so there's constant cooling there as heat moves from inside the building to the ground outside. You can improve that with e.g. heatsinks.

[pure karma]

not really second pc has been off for like 2 weeks cause it has no wifi and my main pc only peaks at like 500W combined

[night girder]

I don't know the impact of my PC. But in the summer, my room is 24-26 when I wake up, and 30-32C + when I go to bed.

[thin trout]

something like a current gen cpu and 4070 is around 300w, and sun on window can be 1000-3000w.

A human outputs a few hundred watts too, we don't tend to feel like rooms are getting hot because there are 2 people in them instead of 1. It adds up though if you cram 200 people into a small space.

[night girder]

I doubt it's the PC. I think it's the roof 😉

[visual tree]

My mother has a very bad habit of setting AC temperature to 18 degrees even though 24 degrees is more than enough for me

No wonder she got sick lol

[pure karma]

yea my dad insist on 20 and no more and it drives me nuts cause the floor stays freezing being that most of the floor is ceramic

[visual tree]

I think hospitals set their AC to 24 or 26 degrees and it's not that bad inside

[pure karma]

24 is the sweet spot for me

[night girder]

And this is why I question AC units

[visual tree]

Question my mother's life decisions, not AC 🤣

[night girder]

Nah, your mother is not alone. Million of people around the world are doing this.

[visual tree]

And they wonder why they have sinus issues

[pure karma]

most the iresponsible people i know do the oposite and set them to heat to like 28 but i guess atleast 28 isent deadly with decent airflow

[night girder]

I got the solution!

Space is -270.45 degrees Celsius. And infinite (as far as we know).
What if we just pump our heat into space? Problem fixed.

[visual tree]

During winter, my thermostat is set to 18 or 20 degrees

[pure karma]

the problem is HOW

[visual tree]

We would need a giant hose lol

[night girder]

We don't need to suck in, we just let the air travel through space so it can cool off, and then back into earth.

In a tube. So it's a circuit. Just like a PC

[pure karma]

turning earth into a giant vacuum part 784

[night girder]

I mean it's kinda silly we have this tiny solutions.

While we are floating around in average -270.45 degrees Celsius!

The same that Futurama predicted, that we will launch our garbage into space one day. I still believe it.

[pure karma]

launch our garbage at the sun no?

that way it melts

[night girder]

Yeah, and they have a smellyscope or something to smell long distances in space 🤣 It was such a funny episode.

[visual tree]

I am already concerned about space x and other companies launching too many satellites into space

Hope kessler syndrome won't become a reality

[night girder]

Me too. And now scientist are starting to worry about dead people.

What do you do with people when they die in space? If you launch them outside, they get stuck into orbit of earth. So eventually it's floating with dead corpses.

And if you wonder; "why are scientist worried about that?" because space travel has become commercial.

May 19, 2024 - Ed Dwight - 90 years 8 months when he got into space.

[visual tree]

I think launching tesla roadster into space was not really necessary. Like, what are you trying to prove with that?

[night girder]

So the % of someone dying in space are just increasing steadily.

[night girder]

Got people to buy Tesla's right?

And now in 2025, those people add stickers to the back of their Tesla saying, "I don't support Elon Musk".

[visual tree]

Good luck increasing tesla sale in europe today lol

[pure karma]

i think the main concern is crashing into a wall of space debris caused by ourselfs and being unable to ocntinue space travel at some point but i feel like it will be a while

[night girder]

That ship has sailed. I see Tesla now as the car of shame 🤣

if somebody drives around with a Tesla we all go:

[pure karma]

saw a tesla pass using a on ramp going about 180 in a 100 the other day

[night girder]

https://tenor.com/view/game-of-thrones-shame-ringing-bell-walk-of-shame-gif-13316112511080767236

[pure karma]

they can go die in space for all i care

[night girder]

you have to clarify friend

are you using those silly units again? What is it again? Feet per hour?

[visual tree]

“At a time when we should be focused on reducing waste and emissions, sending a car into space for no scientific purpose feels tone-deaf.”

[pure karma]

passing on the right using the extension bit (aka on ramp merge to the highway) going 180kph in a 100kph zone

[night girder]

I said that when it happened. But for some reason, a lot of people supported launching a Tesla into space.

Something about science and shit.

And for some, everything can go, if it's for science. The end justifies the means.

[visual tree]

It's all about ego unfortunately

[night girder]

That sounds like a very questionable maneuver.

[night girder]

Not all, but partly is. There is always good people out there.

But shit just floats to the top. And that's the people we mostly see or hear about 🤣

I still don't agree with Space X and wtf they are doing. Starting to feel like a little bit too lose with the tax payers money.

[visual tree]

I wonder if Musk was the same person as he is today 10 years ago or ketamine destroyed him

[night girder]

Not ketamine. Power did. Power corrupts. And I stand by it.

[visual tree]

That too 👆

[night girder]

I will die on this hill, I trully believe that power always corrupts.

even me. It's human nature.

[visual tree]

There is an old saying: If you want to know what kind of a person someone truly is, give him power

[night girder]

You know, I am a bit of a history geek, and the one common thread throughout history is, that there is no black and white.

[pure karma]

oh actually before i forget i wanted to ask a question about network switches

[night girder]

If you really dig into the backgrounds of the "Goodies" ... you will find a not so pleasant side. And if you dig into the backgrounds of the "Baddies" ... you will see it's not that bad. Take the Romans for example. Everyone loves a good Roman show or movie. But those people weren't good people you know. They had slaves and such. In the context it was normal to have slaves, but still...

[night girder]

What I wanted to say, I have no heroes lol. For a moment I was a fan of Winston Churchill. But then I realized he was an imperialist.