off-topic-tech

[willow pike]

it interacts like shit with lumen for me and makes it splotchy as hell

though i go hard on sign lighting

[jagged snow]

But then you have to deal with the fact that fsr2 doesn't handle close-up fast moving objects well at all

[night girder]

Yeah, the leaves were driving me nuts.

[willow pike]

it does okay for me cause i run at 90% res scale

[pure karma]

Xess has been ok for me but TSR and DLSS beat it in most the stuff i play

[night girder]

If a leave from a tree flies by, close, it's all smudgy.

[pure karma]

so its meh at best

[night girder]

Like a comet has a tail...

[jagged snow]

I usually go with 75% or 80%

So I notice that stuff more

[willow pike]

yeah ghosting is a hard problem to solve in TAA, AI has proven to do that better

[jagged snow]

Yep

[night girder]

I must admit, I haven't played in a while. So maybe a update made it a bit better.

[willow pike]

i guess that's a benefit of 7900XTX 1440p, i can do 90% and still go nyoom

[jagged snow]

Ah yeah

I'm on a 6700xt at 1440

[night girder]

1080p 🙈

[pure karma]

i always do 90 or 100 lol

[jagged snow]

So
I do often need upscaling to hit 144fps

[willow pike]

ah upscaling starts to not work super well at 1080p

[jagged snow]

Yeah

[willow pike]

even DLSS can break down a bit

[jagged snow]

It does better with a higher starting resolution

As a general rule, you pretty much never want to upscale from anything less than 1080p

Which would be 50% at 1440p

[night girder]

With the + that I don't need upscaling for all games to get good frames 🙂

Since I just do 1080p.

[willow pike]

i got a 144hz monitor and i wanna use it lmao

[jagged snow]

I don't know if I'd ever want to go back to 1080
Just because of text readability

[jagged snow]

Tbh you really don't need the card you have for that unless you're playing the most modern AAA titles

[pure karma]

i still play at 60 even with 165hz monitors so i dont really care

[willow pike]

i do tend to

[pure karma]

because truth is my average framerates are like 40-75

[night girder]

I am happy with 60 FPS too 🤣

[willow pike]

i got used to high responsiveness and dun wanna go back

[charred relic]

How does factory size alter framerate in SF?

none? a lot?

[night girder]

Walls helps a lot. That's all I know 🤣

[verbal raft]

just CPU i think

[willow pike]

depends on the factory

[charred relic]

I just have it maxed out but I'm wondering what happens if i were to load in a huge factory

[willow pike]

the simulation eventually takes a toll

[night girder]

And I mean solid walls. Not windows.

Everything behind solid walls isn't rendering.

[willow pike]

try making 50000 screws a minute and you will notice a difference

[verbal raft]

`CPU limited benchmark textures:high lumen OFF FSR 50% targeting 1080p all else set to ultra/cinematic

1.0 save
106 avg
49 1%
21 0.1%

UPDATE 7 save
77 avg
24 1%
6 0.1%

update 8 save
101 avg
52 1%
23 0.1%
`

[night girder]

That doesn't answer factory size? Or am I missing it? 🤔

[charred relic]

i could probably find a save somewhere and load it in and find out im sure

[verbal raft]

update 7 is the biggest Update 8 is middle 1.0 is the smallest

[pure karma]

went from 150 to about 40 now at 300K entities

[verbal raft]

will link screenshots soon.TM

[charred relic]

I run at 4k heh

On a 6750 XT

[verbal raft]

Specs CPU : 5600G GPU : RX 6600 RAM : 15GB 3200MT CL16

[night girder]

CompeteToDefeat. One way to find out. Start building 😄

[charred relic]

I'm also a weirdo who has never had a really really big factory because I end up not playing for a long time for some reason or another then I start over lol

[night girder]

or steal someones save of giant factory.

[verbal raft]

well
they were at least

[charred relic]

I'm always like screw it haven't played in like 6 months i'll start a new save

[verbal raft]

now 1.0 is either the biggest or middle

[pure karma]

I would offer my save but its like 16MB

[charred relic]

on the flip side my MC server had the same map for years lol

[pure karma]

Too big to send

[charred relic]

16MB?

I think you meant GB lol

[pure karma]

Yea might be 18MB now

[verbal raft]

how about my save ? its only 9.9mb : )

[charred relic]

too big for you... i could send that in minutes 😮

[novel rose]

16 MB?

[pure karma]

10MB size limit on discord

[charred relic]

that's tiny

it d/l faster than i blink

[novel rose]

Better delete that. You're not allowed to share saves here (no joke)

Can share them through DM

[verbal raft]

oh

[charred relic]

what save?

I didn't see any save

[pure karma]

Shush

[verbal raft]

yeah
IDK what you are talking about : )

[twin dew]

IIRC about 20% effect comparing from Taros 30MB save to new world on GPU side for me, while not anywhere near CPU limited in either case.

[charred relic]

Anyhow I don't use any frame lying magic and get 60 FPS, which is the refresh rate of that screen

[pure karma]

[verbal raft]

yeah, 1.0 is the biggest one now

[twin dew]

In 1.0, without GI or upscaling.

Being in Nothern Forest vs. Desert causes bigger differences than new world to that save.

[verbal raft]

GPU wise i assume

[twin dew]

Yes.

[charred relic]

welp haven't logged into it in awhile now... server still running apparently

[verbal raft]

1.0 save (now after another 150+ hours from bench time)

127K entities (i think)

[novel rose]

I use Cities: Skylines 2 as CPU performance measurement lol

[charred relic]

Gonna load up that save that I got from some place, who can remember...

[verbal raft]

i like using SF : )

[charred relic]

😄

[verbal raft]

107K for the U7 save

92K for the U8 one

[novel rose]

Am already at 250k+ or smth

[verbal raft]

BRUH

[night girder]

What? The game that got so much shit for not being optimized.

[verbal raft]

you should use Stalker 2

[night girder]

I think Stalker 2 might be better off.

[novel rose]

I love that we as community gave them so much shit that we broke the Paradox profit model

[night girder]

Sorry, Paradox deserves it. I adored CS1.

[novel rose]

Yeah definitely does

But make no mistake, CS1 is amazing because of the community

[verbal raft]

lol

[novel rose]

not Paradox or CO

[night girder]

CS2 hasn't moved since release.

CS1 got stable(ish) and optimized(ish).

That's my main issue.

And then paradox starts talking about fucking DLC's and the whole community went beserk.

Since base game is shit.

[novel rose]

Well it started out promising as they were doing small patches but then tried to push the paradox way. Then they back tracked to doing small patches again fixing more issues

[verbal raft]

actually
use ARK Smear ascended for CPU testing : )

[novel rose]

But now we are back at square one because they are pushing DLCs

[night girder]

Stalker 2 also still struggling it seems.

Man, when you look at all this. SF release was a master piece 🤣 (performance/bug wise).

[novel rose]

That bloody game still has map stitching issues that have been there since EA release

[verbal raft]

1.1 got me 20% performance boost : )

[night girder]

wtb game, that is finished. Let me know if you find one.

[verbal raft]

just dont cross the world partition bouncdries 😉

[novel rose]

They botched ARK so hard

[verbal raft]

and it'll be good

[novel rose]

And then ignored the community addressing issues

[night girder]

I give Stalker 2 a year, if they haven't improved performance by then. I am not interested.

[verbal raft]

and UE 5.5 will save us

[night girder]

And CS2 is on my blocked list.

[charred relic]

Warned about missing mods, loaded... same FPS

[novel rose]

CS2 runs fine for me but I need the damn bicycles

[verbal raft]

the guys forced FSR FG took away DL-FI
and called it 86% perf increase

oh, and, did i mention this yet ?

[novel rose]

How else do I feed my natural instinct for perfect infrastructure 😆

[verbal raft]

oh, right how many lines do you think they would have had to add

[night girder]

CS1? More mods. More content. Less bugs. Just a better game.

[verbal raft]

to get this result

[charred relic]

There are spots I run through where I drop into the mid and sometimes low 50's

[novel rose]

Nah road tools of CS2 do beat the basic functionality that CS1 with mods offers

[night girder]

rofl 🤣

8K players vs 6K 30-day avg. (CS1 vs 2)

[verbal raft]

3 LMAO

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[novel rose]

CS1 for me has the issue that its too noticeable that it is running on a dogshit engine

[verbal raft]

in here

[night girder]

Just funny, that CS1 seems to have more players atm than CS2 which got released 2 years ago.

[novel rose]

That has always been the case except for CS2 release month

[verbal raft]

cant speak for the OG
but
CS2 ran at 30-40 for a while
then it went down to 20 lol

[novel rose]

CS2 requires a good CPU

I can run a city of 100k before I really start to run into performance issues

[night girder]

Recommended for CS2:

Processor: Intel® Core™ i5-12600K | AMD® Ryzen™ 7 5800X

[verbal raft]

too bad i dont have a 9800 X3D

[novel rose]

Is that recommended?

[night girder]

yes.

[novel rose]

Ah well that explains it, I have i5 14600KF

[verbal raft]

I poor
Specs
CPU : 5600G
GPU : RX 6600
RAM : 15GB 16GB 3200MT CL16

😣😖😫😭😭😭

[novel rose]

15GB😵‍💫, where did that last GB go

[verbal raft]

OOPPSSS

[mental oriole]

I ate it.

[verbal raft]

😅

[novel rose]

But either the Minimum or Recommended is bs here

[night girder]

No. Game is at fault here.

[novel rose]

Because the gap from a 970 to a 3080

[night girder]

Unoptimized.

Either, they should have upped the specs.

So less people would be dissapointed.

Or do this, and eat bad reviews.

[novel rose]

They shouldn't have released lol

But thats for any €60 game now

[night girder]

But 💰 💰 💰

and they had all the DLC cooking already for extra cash grab.

[novel rose]

I am gonna laugh so hard when GTA 6 is inevitably gonna run into the same shit

[night girder]

I am proud of city skylines community though. They didn't take the bullshit.

I waited for 2 years in the hopes of "the patch" that fixes most issues. But I lost hope.

[novel rose]

Yeah like I said, patches at the start and when they back tracked were good

Otherwise it went down the drain

[night girder]

I think they are working on City Skylines 3. Or they preparing to go bankrupt/sell/merge the company

[novel rose]

I believe the asset editor still has not been released yet

[night girder]

Holy shit ...

Paradox as a publisher, not a big fan honestly.

[novel rose]

Oh LOL

They made a petty info post today

[night girder]

We’ve just released our eighth and final Region Pack, marking the last stop on our world tour – for now at least!

Nobobdy that wanted the world tour.

[novel rose]

Well the regional packs do at least make some sense

[night girder]

Ah and console. Ofc. You want to push the game to more consumers.

I am talking about priorities. They are wrong for me.

[novel rose]

Yup

The bit about the asset editor is hilarious

[night girder]

I don't mind DLC. I don't mind consoles. It's about priorities. If my car is missing 4 weels, I don't care if the vendor gives me leather seats to make it up. It's still missing 4 wheels.

[novel rose]

We're removing Unity dependencies

How to say that you are using the wrong engine without saying that you are using the wrong engine

[night girder]

Without this, the game freezes for extended periods of time and can become unstable

Oh, no shit? Your game becomes unstable. No fucking way developers. Hahaha 🤣

[night girder]

Or that you fucked it up from the bottom.

[novel rose]

Yup

Although thats also up to Unity

[night girder]

Developers choose the engine. It's not that unity forces them to use their engine.

[novel rose]

I mean SF has run into the same kind of issues but they have always made clear that Epic was helping them solve those issues

[night girder]

Yeah and SF didn't just say; "fuck it, we'll just release".

They wanted their game to meet a certain QA standard before releasing 1.0.

[novel rose]

Yeah but that's the benefit of EA

[night girder]

CSS removed rain in satisfactory because of problems etc. (engine)

it was raining in caves etc.

[novel rose]

I mean to me CSS set a golden standard for community feedback which gives us the game that we have now

But choosing the EA route definitely helps

You can also go the Rocket League route

Still on UE3

No wonder its running with high FPS

[night girder]

yeah, big shoes to fill

but I agree, CSS spoiled me. I expect the same transparancy with other developers and just get dissapointed.

[novel rose]

Shapez 2 is pretty promising in that regard

[verbal raft]

*Flames

[night girder]

Yeah, they have cool things cooking 😄

[novel rose]

Although it is a bit of the same genre so no surprises there

[novel rose]

I just want RL2 tbh

But fat chance of that

Yes and no

[night girder]

lately playing a game made by 8 people. They put out frequent patches. But they are very small.

[novel rose]

In terms of commitment, Unturned

Dude is still alone I believe

[night girder]

he is?

[novel rose]

Last I checked

[night girder]

I though unturned got support now.

I saw they updated the trees.

[novel rose]

Wouldn't be surprised if thats the case

[night girder]

Again.

[novel rose]

The concept of Unturned is so good but the art style is so niche

[night girder]

Ah, it's 2 people developing unturned.

Still impressive.

[novel rose]

Wait what

Unturned is not in my library anymore

[night girder]

free to play games

don't stay in library I think

Nvm they do 😄

[novel rose]

Just bugged steam app, store page still says in library

Unity should have been sold to companies creating digital twins

[pure karma]

They should?

[night girder]

I already corrected myself.

[pure karma]

ok yea no you noticed my brain is just fried in this heat

[night girder]

Niice weather.

[novel rose]

We're sort of near that this weekend😆

[pure karma]

Yea but its hot after a while lol

[novel rose]

...its gonna be 18°C!

[pure karma]

im gonna be back to -20 tomorrow anyway so yeaaa

🇨🇦

my phone is so hot it’s stuttering lol

[novel rose]

Don't leave it out in the sun

[pure karma]

all black phone with black case in 30C weather is oof

[pure karma]

im on the aide of the pool for the breeze thoooooo

[novel rose]

My OnePlus 6 got so hot during summer (not in the sun even) that it was almost too hot to touch

Put it in the freezer regularly

Wonder how my OnePlus 13 is gonna fare this summer

Those have been overheating since ipods

[pure karma]

its not that hot externally but its defedently cooking internally

[novel rose]

Well mine started cooking externally

[novel rose]

Grabbed a frying pan and everything, should've seen it

[pure karma]

im on team 🍎

so yea

meh gets the job done and seeing how im already learning linux i couldn’t be asked to relearn mobile too

[novel rose]

Yeah but anyone with any technological knowledge actually compares them

Regular people just look: Apple and Samsung, this one's pretty, I'll have that

[pure karma]

I didn’t choose my parents got phones and they were jut like heres your’s so my lack of need for a phone got me a free iphone 15

[novel rose]

Lol

Most times its the other way around, parents still using stuff from 2015. Kid gets a new phone, here mom/dad, have my old one

[charred relic]

outside of guitar my phone is a phone.. and sms device

bout all i use it for

[pure karma]

yea my mom got my ipad 3rd gen a while back

[novel rose]

Almost nobody uses the full potential of a phone though

[pure karma]

so now i have a 6th gen ipad and a iphone 15… quite the performance difference

[charred relic]

i just don't like using them for much... too small

if I'm out and about and need to look something up sure, if I'm at home I'll use something else

[pure karma]

i dont mobile game much anymore but i have been playing through dredge a second time on it slowly but surely

[novel rose]

I use my phone to torrent lol

[novel rose]

Less important data to lose than on my PC

[charred relic]

simply downloading something does nothing though..

If I d/l the most dangerous .exe in the world it does nothing unless I'm foolish enough to run it heh

[novel rose]

Thats fair, I pay attention to whats actually downloaded

[pure karma]

True my game loadout is fairly mid but i havent gone on a game search in so long i dont know whats on mobile anymore

[charred relic]

Also don't use public trackers 🙂

they're trash for plebs...

[mental oriole]

People have games on their phone?

[novel rose]

If only the american broadcasters would make their apps available in Europe, I would not have to torrent at all

[pure karma]

Yes

[charred relic]

Yeah and that's a situation where I'm totally OK with somebody getting it that way

I mean what else can you do to see it...

VPN maybe I guess?

I can bounce you through Canada heh

[novel rose]

Yup. Create an account in the US, VPN and commit fraud by providing a fake address

[charred relic]

I'd just have to set up the VPN software, how hard can it be

I pay a grand total of 14.40/month for that system

i love their flash sales...

[pure karma]

Whats that?

[novel rose]

I just want eduroam as DNS back, didn't have any torrent sites blocked for some reason lol

[pure karma]

Ahh

[charred relic]

I only use one... all I need.

But I could VPN myself and appear as if I'm in Canada if I ever needed to, so far haven't needed to.

And there would be no question on the logs on mine... since it's mine and they'd get nulled heh

That's the part with VPNs that makes me nervous... they claim no logs but.,..

are there...really...

Get an iPhone, problem solved 😄

Yes come on into the garden

[novel rose]

Me with my OnePlus that has a physical Silent, Vibrate, Ring slider👀

[charred relic]

so warm and relaxing in here...

[night girder]

?

Just an extra one afaik.

[charred relic]

That's why I refuse to feel sorry for people complaning about not being able to feed their kids but they posted the video using a 1200+ dollar phone.

wtih a 80" flat screen on the wall behind them...

Like nah maybe you are just dumb and don't have your priorities straight heh

if I can see like 3 grand of electronics in your video then I think you might just be the problem on that one heh

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VLAoVGf_74
and a yet another banger by WelchLabs

[dire igloo]

ironically: luxuries have become much more affordable while the complete basics are more expensive
and if you get a large amount of money at once, you gotta ask yourself: live slightly less bad for a few weeks/months or make a bigger purchase of some luxury good?

if you don't buy the expensive TV or expensive phone when you have a lump of money, that money will trickle away

[soft bloom]

the feeding kids mean that they must have luxury items, and actually be raised by hired people so that mommy and daddy can post on social media about how responsible they are.
and then... hurricane, flood, fire, earthquake comes. and people have new value

[night girder]

fries are for eatin 😄

[willow pike]

most?

get fucked

[night girder]

yup

[night girder]

Anyone know if this is south bridge?

[willow pike]

that'll be where the chipset is aye

we don't use words like north bridge or south bridge anymore

[night girder]

Was looking at this image before; and was wondering where they are located on my motherboard.

[glossy glacier]

i like to think the AMD IO-die is just North-Bridge v2

[willow pike]

north bridge was where the memory controller was and that got eaten by the CPU decades ago, now there's no North or south

[night girder]

Baldur did mention something like that, but I though only south bridge or something got removed? Or deprecated.

[glossy glacier]

Memory-Controller went into CPU and High-Speed IO (PCIe) got split between CPU and "Southbridge". Thus the north bridge disappeared and the south bridge became the modern chipset

[willow pike]

this is a north bridge and south bridge

the CPU connects to the north bridge, which connects to high speed stuff like the RAM and the graphics card

the south bridge handles everything else

[glossy glacier]

Intel calls it DMI, AMD calls it PCIe

[night girder]

got it

[willow pike]

now look at a ryzen

see how much shit is plugged directly into the CPU

everything the north bridge used to do, and a lot of what the south bridge did

[glossy glacier]

Ryzen CPUs are SoC in themself. isn't X300 just a "jup im here" chipset?

[night girder]

They must have their reasons to remove it.

[willow pike]

speed

[night girder]

Maybe by moving components closer to CPU, they reduced latency or something.

Since you skip the bridges.

[willow pike]

that is exactly why they did it

[twin dew]

Northbridge was the one with memory controller, that got integrated into the CPU itself, leaving old Southbridge as the only chipset.

[willow pike]

the athlon 64 was the first CPU to consume the memory controller and it was much faster for it

the first core i7 then ate the PCIe graphics card link

[night girder]

Thanks, was trying to find your post but didn't had any luck. That was it.

[willow pike]

and on and on it went

[night girder]

In the future, the motherboard is the CPU 🤣

[willow pike]

there are some AM4 motherboards that don't even have a chipset, relying completely on the CPU

the term you're looking for is SoC, system on a chip

[night girder]

Would one be able to get performance benefits by "attaching" (soldering maybe?) the cpu to a motherboard?

[willow pike]

this is how literally every phone works

[willow pike]

you get to run the RAM at higher frequencies

[night girder]

Make it so, that one doesn't buy a motherboard, but a combination of motherboard + CPU. And then we can buy a GPU, RAM etc.

[willow pike]

other than that, PCIe doesn't give a fuck

[night girder]

So, if you solder RAM to a motherboard. You gain speed. But it doesn't work for a CPU. Ok.

[willow pike]

also you just described the framework desktop, but that also has a gigantic integrated GPU

[night girder]

Oh yeah haha 🤣

Forgot about it for a second.

[glossy glacier]

RAM speed gain is mostly because of signal integrity, right?

[willow pike]

yeah, signal integrity

PCIe can be run over a bunch of extension cables, but RAM is extremely sensitive

[glossy glacier]

just need full ECC

[night girder]

Eh, that doesn't sound like a real fix to the problem.

[glossy glacier]

no, but it would still be appreciated

[twin dew]

Only with active redrivers every 10 cm or so.

For PCIe 5, less often for lower ones.

Such redrivers don't exist for RAM, as they add latency.

[glossy glacier]

we need to switch so fibre based PCIe 🙃

[willow pike]

still possible; but DRAM needs extreme planning on traces

[twin dew]

Parallel bus, while PCIe is bunch of two-wire differential serial busses

[willow pike]

thunderbolt!

[glossy glacier]

OCUlink

[willow pike]

thunderbolt 5

they're finally increasing the pcie link

they've been at the same level for like ten years

[glossy glacier]

wasn't TB rolled into USB?

[willow pike]

it's still a superset of it

[night girder]

So RAM needs to have low latency bus. PCIE is meant for long distances?

With long distances, I mean, over the motherboard distance.

[willow pike]

PCIe is real flexible with what you can do with it

[night girder]

No, I want to know. Why they went for a special RAM BUS and different PCIE.

[willow pike]

fiber optic thunderbolt cables can send PCIe like 50 meters

[night girder]

One of the answers I get is; PCIE is for CD-readers and such.

[twin dew]

But with additional latency, and lower speed.

RAM is one trick pony with still parallel bus for higher bandwidth and lower latency.

[night girder]

External devices we connect. But a stick of RAM is also external device to me 🤣

[willow pike]

because PCIe is a data bus while RAM is directly controlling a whole bunch of RAM chips in parallel

[glossy glacier]

RAM DIMMS are dumb, theres (almost) no logic on them. Everything is controlled by the IMC.
PCIe is a conversation between two partners

[twin dew]

PCIe optical drive?
PCIe is for fast bus needing (internal) devices.

[willow pike]

RAM interfaces like DDR5 are dumb as shit compared to PCIe, it's almost like the absence of a more sophisticated link. direct hardware interface

[night girder]

Yeah, that's why I am confused.

[glossy glacier]

Optical drives are SATA, or older ones IDE

[twin dew]

Or USB now.

[night girder]

Maybe misread on my part.

But ok, that clears it up.

[honest cedar]

s/IDE/ATAPI/ </pedantry>

Nope. You made me remember I still have SCSI stuff.

[night girder]

Is there a difference between high-throughput and high bandwidth?

because they sound kinda the same to me.

[honest cedar]

Yes. Very much so. High throughput is a station wagon full of tapes doing 200MPH. High bandwidth is two station wagons full of tapes.

[glossy glacier]

throughput <= bandwidth

[night girder]

Ok, so highway lanes (bandwith) - amount of cars on the highway, speed, package they carry... (throughput)

[honest cedar]

Throughput is how fast you're getting it, bandwidth is how much, yup.

[glossy glacier]

bandwidth is how much you could get, throughput how much you actually get after losses

[twin dew]

Well, SCSI is still around in multiple forms.

Serial Attached SCSI (SAS).
iSCSI
USB Attached SCSI (UASP).
Fibre Channel.
etc.

[willow pike]

https://tenor.com/view/satisfactory-satisfactory-update5-train-train-wreck-satisfactory-train-wreck-gif-24135396

[night girder]

• RAM is optimized for low-latency access and high bandwidth
• PCIe lanes are designed for high-throughput data transfer over longer distances

That confused me for a bit. And wasn't sure if the answer was even correct.

[willow pike]

yeah pretty much

[night girder]

But, the whole RAM is high bandwidth sound bullshit?

shouldn't RAM have high throughput?

[willow pike]

pretty sure RAM is high both

[night girder]

Yeah exactly.

[twin dew]

PCIe is just the latest in long line of bus formats, from before ISA, to ISA, to PCI, to AGP, to PCIe, with some other offshoots in there.

[willow pike]

it's the fastest thing outside of the CPU

[night girder]

Just weird to make a distinction when giving a definition between the two 🙂

[honest cedar]

e.g. I'm pushing 128 lanes of PCIe at 8.0GT/s over optical which is stupid fast.
But those are switched lanes and host side is only 32 lanes.

[honest cedar]

<holds up VME and cPCI and VPX and ...>

[night girder]

And if PCIE lanes are designed for high throughput, they also have high bandwith 🤣

Or so I would assume.

[glossy glacier]

RAM is a dedicated line between CPU and DIMMs
PCIe can be split, shared, switched, transmitted, etc

[honest cedar]

... wow, tell me you're real young without telling me you're real young. 😿

But 8.0GT/s at 128b/130b is actually ~984.6MB/s at (I'd have to check datasheet to be certain) 10^15 BER.

Which means every 10^15 bits I can expect a loss, approximately. (The actual calculations make your Ficsonium plant look trivial.)

[twin dew]

16x PCIe 5 is 63.015 GB/s.
128bit DDR5 6000 is about 96GB/s.
But DDR5 6000 can be down to about 50-60ns of latency for single transaction, while PCIe CXL DRAM is about 200-250ns.

And auto-settings DDR5 is often about 100ns latency.

[honest cedar]

PCIe5.0 is a hypothetical 63.015GB/s, but in anything consumer, ~50GB/s is a more realistic peak.

PCIe5 signal integrity IS HELL ON EARTH AND MAKES ME HATE EVERYTHING.

[twin dew]

That RAM is hasn't moved to some kind of serial bus from parallel is significantly about latency.
Even when making parallel busses high-speed is so giant pain.

Also keeping those RAM chips dumb as rocks.

[jagged snow]

Yeah, they can work almost entirely on deterministic logic

Which is a big advantage on the cost side

[honest cedar]

It's more about keeping RAM sort-of stupid, being WAY easier to do signal on (always has been,) and because hello have you seen AMD EPYC? 😉

[twin dew]

Doing same overall speed with same amount of pins with multiple serial busses would be easier for the connectors, traces etc.
But would need more complex transceivers on the RAM side, and possibly on CPU side, and would push latency up.

[honest cedar]

Excuse me while I just casually do 48GB/s x 12 with my ginormouos L3 cache.

[twin dew]

Like that CXL DRAM shows as example.

[jagged snow]

And parallel busses are a more natural progression from the way that data is stored in ram

[willow pike]

technically that's 12 L3 caches

[honest cedar]

Oh GOD no that is SO not true. Not even a LITTLE. Because here's the thing we learned long ago. Putting lots of busy things on the same wires goes badly.

[willow pike]

still impressive as heck though

[honest cedar]

Whereas "well hell I'll just add more parallel" is easy.

[glossy glacier]

"parallel" "easy"

[willow pike]

i remember when the fastest pc i had was loading jetpack onto my zx spectrum on a tape drive

[honest cedar]

(Also, do not look too closely into DDR5 dies. You will quickly realize that RAM is no longer stupid enough to be governed by an SPD and is only going to get worse.)

[twin dew]

128 PCIe 5 lanes are a joke to you in the same CPU?
Almost same total bandwidth as those 12 RAM channels.
And also, that server RAM doesn't hit 48GB/s per channel?
DDR5-5200 would be about 33GB/s per channel?

[jagged snow]

One of the funniest things about the modern computing paradigm to me is the sheer number of clock cycles that are spent waiting for memory

[glossy glacier]

thats why you weave data transfer and commands

[honest cedar]

... uh, my dude, Zen5 EPYCs are DDR5-6000 out of the box and have been since launch. That's pre-tuning. Good RDIMMs easily hit 6600+.

[willow pike]

@night girder you remember we were talking about topology earlier? here's sixteen 8 core dies

[night girder]

yeah

[twin dew]

Ok, so I'm out of date then.
Need to check that then.

[jagged snow]

Not a magic bullet and doesn't make the problem go away, just makes it a little better

[twin dew]

Ok, yeah, 6000MT/s as the official spec on 9005 series Epycs.

4800MT/s on 9004 series Epycs.

Had missed that update.

[glossy glacier]

now to wait for 4005 EPYCs

[honest cedar]

Yeah. And even Zen4 JEDEC 5200's are easily doing 5600+. I have some 4004's currently running some cheap 5200 at 5600. 6000's doable but too hot for my comfort level on them.

[twin dew]

4004:s are just consumer CPUs with extra validation and rebranded?

[glossy glacier]

basically ^^

[twin dew]

So they do same as 7000/9000 Ryzens.

[glossy glacier]

and some extra features

[willow pike]

pretty epic

[honest cedar]

Nope. 4004's have a different IOD.

[night girder]

You got a server root?

[twin dew]

No they don't?
Based on what?

[willow pike]

AM5 epycs use a different io die? that's wild

[night girder]

Because that thing seems overkill to play satisfactory

[honest cedar]

I have many servers.

[night girder]

Running AI or something? Just wondering why you need so much power 😊

[honest cedar]

4004's IOD is fully ECC enabled. Desktop part has a different PHY.

[glossy glacier]

desktop can do ecc too iirc?

[twin dew]

Nah, not difference.
AM5 ryzens have ECC too already, just AGESA not exposing all settings (yet).

[honest cedar]

Oh, I've just always had that... it's what I do on the side. Plus I run various things at home. No Grand Theft Autocorrect.

Nope. Ryzens do NOT have RDIMM support. Only DDR5 inherent-ECC.

[twin dew]

And neither do 4004:s.

They don't support RDIMMs, only UDIMMs.

[willow pike]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nv9E-rGKwY

[twin dew]

AM5 chiplet Ryzens support ECC UDIMMs fully, with firmware limitations at this time on things you can set compared to officially ECC supported Pro versions.

And 4004:s are just rebranded Ryzen Pros basically.

Same as with AM4.

Multichip non-pros have unofficial ECC support.
Monolithic non-pros have ECC support burned out.
All Pros have official ECC support.
for ECC UDIMMs.

[honest cedar]

Hang on, because there's certain things I can't say/disclose. Either way, on-die "ECC" is not actually ECC. Full stop. An actual ECC 48GB UDIMM has 10 packages. Non-ECC is 8 packages.

[twin dew]

Epyc 4004 are that same official ECC UDIMM support, no RDIMM support.

[night girder]

🤣

[twin dew]

Yes?
And I'm not talking about the on-chip "ECC".
I'm talking about real ECC UDIMMs with the extra chips and 80 data lanes.

(72 for DDR4)

There are non-ECC UDIMMs, ECC UDIMMs (rare) and ECC RDIMMs.
Non-ECC RDIMMs could exist, but there is no real point so no-one makes them.

And that DDR5 on-chip ECC is the non-ECC UDIMM variant of DDR5.

(well, all the chips have it, but some confuse that to real ECC).

I personally have two of the 32GB variant in my AM5 machine:
https://www.kingston.com/en/memory/server-premier/ddr5-4800mts-ecc-unbuffered-dimm

With working actual ECC.

Only difference between ECC UDIMM and ECC RDIMM is that register chip (buffer/redriver for address and command busses to reduce load on IMC).

And now with DDR5, UDIMMs have 5V feed, and RDIMMs have 12V.

For the on-DIMM PMIC.

Same way lowest end Intel ECC-capable systems use ECC UDIMMs, as they are just consumer dies with ECC-support still enabled and not burned out.
With firmware lockout to allow that support to be only used on C-series chipsets.

Xeon-E 2100/2200s are for example Coffee Lake consumer dies.

Xeon W 1300:s are Rocket Lake consumer dies.

Same for Xeon E 2300

Xeon E 2400s are Raptor Lake.

Basically every Intel consumer CPU since very long time ago has the ECC UDIMM support in them originally, just burned out later in manufacturing after binning and assignment if that chip will be consumer or "Xeon"

AMD is the same, but doesn't burn the ECC support out of the multichip IODs, but does burn it out of monolithic APUs, if those aren't being manufactured as Ryzen Pro.

But the ECC support on the non-Pro multidies is unofficial.

I also have two AM4 systems with DDR4 ECC UDIMMs, one with Ryzen Pro 4650G and another with Ryzen 5600X.
Both have that ECC fully working and confirmed with error injection that reporting and correction works, and not just that OS reports multibit ECC.

Unbuffered DIMM (UDIMM), all lines go straight to all RAM chips.
Registered DIMM (RDIMM), address and command lines are buffered per DIMM with extra chip, data lines go straight to all RAM chips.
Fully Buffered DIMM (FB-DIMM, not in use at this time), all lines are buffered per DIMM with extra chip.
All can be ECC or non-ECC.
Just that UDIMMs are commonly non-ECC, but you can get ECC UDIMMs.
RDIMMs and FBDIMMs have never really been manufactured as non-ECC, only as ECC.

[twin dew]

Rumors that MindFactory.de is closing down or going bankrupt, and that would be publicly announced next week.

[winged valley]

pcie 7 when

[twin dew]

Planned to be finished this year.

On 2 April 2024, PCI-SIG announced the release of PCIe 7.0 specification version 0.5; PCI Express 7.0 remains on track for release in 2025.

[languid gulch]

are they just being outcompeted?

[night girder]

specification release?

so when before production?

[twin dew]

Igor Wallossek:
Allegedly, insolvency is to be filed for next week. I can't talk about the background, it's extremely sensitive. I've known since Friday.

Machine translation from:
https://www.igorslab.de/community/threads/amd-radeon-rx-9070-xt-und-rx-9070-im-detail-vorgestellt-das-benchmark-schaulaufen-kommt-später.10899/page-10#post-299270

With several other hints before in thread to not buy stuff from them right now.

[languid gulch]

is igor part of mindfactory?

[twin dew]

Said that suppliers etc. were informed already.

And the stock is way down on everything.

[twin dew]

PCIe 6.0 was finnalized in January 2022, and took couple of years to hit production.

[languid gulch]

i know employees are kinda protected, but man it still sucks

[twin dew]

And even PCIe 6 is probably not going to come to consumer platforms any time soon.

[languid gulch]

oh yea i don't even think PCIe 5 is necessary even tho it's out & kinda standard

[twin dew]

Because of the much more complex transceivers from using PAM-4.

[night girder]

500MB/S to 32GB/s for one lane over multiple generations.

[twin dew]

Those are not right?

The GT/s:s are, but the GB/s numbers are wrong, actual throughputs are lower as the various encodings take some of the raw rate.

PCIe 7.0 16x for example is to be 242 GB/s for 16x in one direction.
Those seem to be combining both directions at raw rate, without encoding losses.

Also, Gigabytes per Sievert... (S, not s in the pic)

No, not that, what was S...

[languid gulch]

lol

[night girder]

Yeah, they are bidirectional.

Keep in mind that these are bi-directional; halve these numbers to find the unidirectional speed.

Tom Hardware doesn't mention it though.

[languid gulch]

threads per roentgen

[twin dew]

S was Siemens, so I remembered it right first...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_(unit)

Ah, yeah, the pic does say in the top left that it is raw bidirectional rate, without encodings etc.

To get the highest headline number for marketing...

[night girder]

found the source if interested: storagedeveloper.org/sites/default/files/SDC/2023/presentations/SNIA-SDC23-DasSharma-PCIe-7.0-Specification-Bandwidth.pdf

nvm. It also has uppercase /S

But yeah, that's seems to be the source of the table.

[charred relic]

my board has one 4.0 x16 and two more x16 slots that operate at 3.0 x1

Somewhat limiting when it comes to some kind of cards like USB cards but whatever I don't need but a few more ports anyhow.

And really I should just get a board populated with a bunch of 2.0 even because most of my stuff is find with that

[winged valley]

1 TB/s signaling with PCIe 8.0

Imagine actually utilizing that

[languid gulch]

might actually have some functional 8K/60fps gaming then

[pure karma]

nah don’t be too optimistic 4K/30fps

[charred relic]

..unless you're missing ROPs

[glossy glacier]

nah don't be too optimistic 1080p/30fps with upscaling and multi-frame-gen

[pure karma]

nah don't be too optimistic 360P/15FPS with upscaling and multi-frame-gen

[charred relic]

1024x768

stutters

https://tenor.com/view/matt-frewer-1980s-1985-computer-animation-comedians-gif-16976473

[wanton orchid]

its current sweetspot

[feral drift]

I like my roentgen, like i like my Pi.. 3.14.. Not great but not terrible either..

[novel rose]

Just checked a tech website that shows how many members have a certain product on their wishlist:

9070XT - 150
5070FE - 70

And the partner 9070XT cards that have only been added somewhere in the last 24 hours are also already ahead. That shit is gonna fly off the shelf

[languid gulch]

lots of talk about the 9070XT being the spiritual successor to the 1080Ti

[novel rose]

Interestingly a few cards in there that have 2x DP, 2x HDMI

instead of the usual 3-1

[languid gulch]

and why the ever loving fuck does the sapphire card have the firestarter on it

[twin dew]

They didn't want three 8-pins on that OC model for some reason.

The lower power Sapphires have 2x 8-pin.

[languid gulch]

what an own goal

[twin dew]

Well, the connector was supposed to have been "fixed", and the design was almost certainly locked down too far by the time the new 5000-series issues hit news cycle to change anymore.

The weird thing is that on the card, they first combine all six 12V pins, then pass them through two shunt resistor into another combined 12V plane.
Then split that into two 12V planes each for half the VRM, via one fuse per connection.
Why didn't they just split the connector pins into two 12V planes of 3 pins each?

[twin dew]

Been same on AMD side for multiple generations where some manufacturers do 2+2 and some do 3+1.

For most, that 2+2 is often "better", but I personally would only get card with at least 3 DP.

[novel rose]

They should bring back a card with one DVI lmao

[narrow folio]

just use an adapter for that

[novel rose]

That era was so wonky, super over the top 'gaming' looks and then it had a DVI on the back

[twin dew]

Or just HDMI <-> DVI cable.

As they are compatible, so it is just passive pin adapter.

No, as I use Sailfish.

So Sony Xperia 10 II currently as the base phone.

Like I said, I'm using Sailfish, not Android.

I have no idea what Sony does with their Android UI.

No?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS

Kind of continuation of that.

Lot of people behind that inside Nokia went and created that Jolla to continue as Sailfish.

With that paid for Android emulator and then using MicroG to fake Google services, possibly.
But Sailfish isn't Android and doesn't run Android software natively, and even if you do get that paid version, it doesn't come with Google stuff, just AOSP.

[tribal kraken]

It looks like time has come to upgrade workshop pc. Maybe something like this https://pcpartpicker.com/user/Laserkari/saved/#view=pLDXnQ

"Too big" PSU for that, but maybe change the GPU later. Not really use for more powerfull right now. This old PC has 5900X and RTX Quadro 4000 (turing)

Assembled can get that about 1700€ in Finland. Old computer has use in the company too

[dire igloo]

https://fi.pcpartpicker.com

I recommend you also use the gear icon next to the prices to set custom prices and mark pre-owned items as purchased

Now for the hardware picks:
Why MP700 Pro?
Why the 9900X?
Why that PSU?
Why the 4060?

Ideally, you don't just state what makes these products good, but also why you chose them over any of the alternatives

[willow pike]

friends don't let friends buy a 4060

[grim panther]

get a 9070

[novel rose]

First EEC-listing with 9060XT cards has been spotted

[grim panther]

EEC?

[novel rose]

Eurasian Economic Commission

Will have 16GB and 8GB variants

[tribal kraken]

Why MP700 Pro?
One of the fastest drives, in stock, enough capacity, the single component that has most effect when opening large cad data or point clouds

Why the 9900X?

Happy with AMD products, need cores for point cloud processing but dont want to pay extra for 9950X, and no need here for X3D, have it home. 14900K/Z790 board Intel could be an option 

Why that PSU?

Seasonic (can be branded Asus whatever) and Corsair works for me, 750W if change GPU later

Why the 4060?

What the dealer have in stock, has to be Nvidia for SolidWorks. AMD GPUs are just pain there. Will see later if I need something like RTX A4000 Ada, or maybe used RTX4070-4080, or swap RTX4090 from home after getting 5090 but then it will be PSU upgrade at the same time. I've tried some IGPUs but thet are just not enough for even simplest stuff for me.

[novel rose]

Oh my god

Dutch webshops together have a couple of thousands 9070(XT) cards in stock

I guess I don't have to worry about missing out

[dire igloo]

SSD:
Wanting a fast SSD is valid, question is whether a different high end config (MAP1602/E18/E25/etc) or a different E26 drive would work too.
Just note that the benefit is primarily for project files and is basically non-existent for windows n stuff.

CPU:
Valid point. Consider 14700k too. Why not 7th gen Ryzen?

PSU:
Model is far more important than brand. The two reasons that brand is important are warranty and customer support (for other hardware, it'd be update support too but that doesn't apply for PSUs).
I recommend you consider other brands too and just get the least expensive PSU with good build quality and enough wattage.
Sadly, the cultists list and source sheet are hella outdated by now, so it's more effort to check.
Could also consider getting one with native 12VHPWR so you save yourself the adapter shenanigans.

GPU:
The market is hella fucked rn (idk how much is noticeable in Finland tho), but if it's just a placeholder anyway, I suggest getting smth from the used market instead.

[dire igloo]

This

Tho I did recommend the 16GB 4060 Ti to someone once - for good reason.
Dude was training a very VRAM heavy AI model, so AMD and Intel were out of the picture. 4070 might've been doable with the budget, but the performance gain according to some redditor's benchmarks (the only ones I could find) was surprisingly small and didn't justify the $120+ price gap

[unreal hearth]

4060 is good but for long term consider somth better, and if your willing to wait the 5070 is more bang for your buck

Especially the advanced AI capabilities

[willow pike]

if this is your money maker invest in something better imo, also used market

solidworks pays real good

[twin dew]

Why go for something better if the basic one works?

[dire igloo]

4060 is good as long as you don't consider its price or competition

[twin dew]

If there isn't any real difference?

[unreal hearth]

Their is a pretty good and noticeable difference between a 4060 and 5070

[twin dew]

In Solidworks?

[dire igloo]

If I understood them correctly, the 4060 is merely there as a placeholder

[unreal hearth]

Plus the price gap between the 2

[twin dew]

That there is significant performance difference in raw specs and gaming performance isn't questioned.
Just if there is any meaningful difference in the intended use in SolidWorks.

[dire igloo]

I'm gonna have to ask for benchmarks on that one

[willow pike]

gotcha

a used 4070 (tie) (super) or 4080 (super) would be best

[twin dew]

Probably almost impossible to get at good price in Finland.

[willow pike]

don't you love capitalism

[unreal hearth]

What is the price of a USED 4070-4080 to

[tribal kraken]

Looks like I put the wrong PSU in the pc partpicker, it should be this V4 with 12VHPWR https://pcpartpicker.com/product/zQ88TW/seasonic-focus-gx-atx-30-v4-2024-750-w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-focus-gx-750-v4

[unreal hearth]

Because if it’s around $500 your better off with the 5070

Good vram

[tribal kraken]

4060 for me is 320€

[unreal hearth]

The new ai

[dire igloo]

Use Finnish PCPP

[unreal hearth]

But if your willing to spend $250 more

[twin dew]

And 5070:s start from 680e for not in stock models.

840e for one in stock.

[unreal hearth]

You have to wait

[twin dew]

4070s are at about 670e price range for the few that still are in stock.

[willow pike]

in an hour, the 9070s will be unleashed (not related to the solidworks PC)

[willow pike]

eesh

[twin dew]

You seem to think that Nvidia MSRP in US dollars without taxes, is anywhere near what the EU price in euros, with taxes, is.

[unreal hearth]

Ohhhhhhhhh shit

Yea I’m from Europe, but I’ve lived in murica for all my life

I’m Hungarian

[willow pike]

the only 5070 (non tie) in stock here is £710

[twin dew]

And not single used 4070 for sale in the two largest Finnish used stuff sites, and one 4080 Super for 1200e.

[willow pike]

that's ludicrous

it just launched

pray the 9070 XT maintains price, that's £570 for three SKUs here

we'll see in an hour if they vanish instantly

[unreal hearth]

Maybe you get someone to hook you up, if you have any relatives in murica where it’s cheaper and they ship it

[willow pike]

are you kidding

[twin dew]

Not worth it to lose all warranty etc.

[willow pike]

our government would tax the shit out of that

[twin dew]

And yes, officially in that case you would need to pay normal VAT and import taxes.

[willow pike]

"hey this package looks like it's valuable. pay the ransom or it goes back"

[twin dew]

So 25.5% VAT and some import taxes.

[willow pike]

thankfully I'm not in the market for a graphics card

7900XTX stronk

[twin dew]

Getting stuff for "cheap" from US isn't a thing if it doesn't somehow get past customs.

And just postage would be 30-50e minimum.

[willow pike]

man when I bought that it was £1000 for that, or £1350 for a 4080 non-super. I don't give a shit how good DLSS says it is, that's not worth it for a slower card

I'm still displeased with spending that much money at all mind you

9070XT is much more reasonable

[unreal hearth]

Good luck to you guys and thanks for the onsite with taxes

*insight

[willow pike]

my ex sent me a gift internationally and customs fucked me to get it

still mad

[unreal hearth]

Oh snap

[willow pike]

don't try that shit with a graphics card

-# fucking brexit

[unreal hearth]

Lowkey

When my Hungarian friend needed a graphics card I bought it and found a relative going home and I paid like 5000f to give it to him

But obviously this was a trusted relative I wouldn’t trust a random person/notmal friend

[willow pike]

yeah they don't really look at luggage much

[twin dew]

Very low chance to get caught, but still illegal.

[unreal hearth]

But on their connection flight they almost got fucked because the luggage got opened up and checked

Good talk, good luck my friend

Viszlát

[willow pike]

i think if you had a graphics card in there you could say "yeah it's mine"

if you had five, uh. you're fucked

[twin dew]

Doesn't matter.

Bringing even one new electronic device back into country needs to be declared and duties paid.

Anything you took out and bring back is ok, but anything you bought abroad officially needs to be declared and paid

Unless below certain value limits.

[unreal hearth]

Yea, but that 4070 to super is prob above right

[twin dew]

High chance, haven't checked the current limits.

[tribal kraken]

Yeah that how it goes as private person. For me when buying as a company with VAT number, I can buy stuff inside EU with 0% VAT. In example buying PC parts in Finland from Danish Proshop.

[willow pike]

the value limit is pretty generous

I went to Florida last year and checked it

one GPU should be under it

[novel rose]

Differs per country

[willow pike]

but I can't remember the number

[twin dew]

430e total when coming on plane or ship to Finland.
300e max if otherwise.

For everything you are bringing that you didn't take out when leaving.

[novel rose]

Although funnily enough it used to be here that you didn't have to declare any literal cash under 10k beforehand. Not too long ago it went down to 3k

[dire igloo]

Hide a GPU inside a pile of cash

[unreal hearth]

…

[willow pike]

split the GPU up and hand the bits to your friends

tommy tallarico style

(no don't that's illegal)

((he got done for that))

[unreal hearth]

Buy some bombs and hide the gpu with them? Cause who the fuck is ganna fiddle around with a box of bombs

[novel rose]

Oh god

One webshop here already is listing a price for a 9070XT

€1249

[willow pike]

that's before the launch time

[unreal hearth]

Pay the tax of not detonating it and boom, your getting 240 fps in satisfactory when looking and a mega nuclear power plant

[willow pike]

someone's trying to be cheeky

[novel rose]

According to pricewatch on a tech website, its for regular stock

[unreal hearth]

I swear I Js got a notification for the 5070 being avalable in nice center

[dire igloo]

What about the not so nice centers?

[willow pike]

I'm going for a walk, I'll find out how it went later

[dire igloo]

"nationwide" KEKW

Half of the US doesn't have a microcenter within 2h of driving

[tribal kraken]

https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/user/Laserkari/saved/#view=pLDXnQ now it should be Finnish with prices, and m.2 & CPU cooler corrected also

[unreal hearth]

Nation wide, o ye plus the 300 your finna pay in taxes

[dire igloo]

PNY CS3150 also uses E26 controller with 232L Micron TLC, but it's over 25€ less.
Also: is Gen5x4 worth the added cost compared to high end Gen4x4? 1TB Teamgroup MP44 is 73€, 1TB Patriot VP4300 Lite is 77€, 1TB Crucial T500 costs 90€ (pcpp prices)

RAM is a 50€ cost increase for no reason
https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#sort=price&b=ddr5&Z=65536002&S=6000,8400

For PSU:
https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/product/JPTZxr/cooler-master-mwe-gold-v2-atx30-750-w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-mpe-7501-afaag-3g

https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/product/XTBFf7/lian-li-edge-gold-850-w-80-gold-certified-fully-modular-atx-power-supply-eg0850g-black

Honestly, ignore that CM rec, just save 40€ and get 850W Lian Li Edge Gold.
Similar quality (maybe even better), higher wattage, lower price

10€ saved on cooler
https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/product/hYxRsY/thermalright-peerless-assassin-120-se-6617-cfm-cpu-cooler-pa120-se-d3

[dire igloo]

What made you pick that specific motherboard over any other on the market?

[novel rose]

Hey I have that one. Its an absolute unit but very nice

[winged valley]

based pa user

[dire igloo]

tbf, the one in the list is a PS120SE

[winged valley]

So?

The SE is just as good I thought

[dire igloo]

And I'm too lazy to crosscheck other vendors and platforms

PCPP is notoriously sucky for picking up Thermalright listings, doesn't help that Finnish PCPP only has a few stores listed

[winged valley]

rip

Hmm I will put an FSP twins pro in a gaming pc

[dire igloo]

Good thing we have this website

[tribal kraken]

Its on sale atm. normal price is 195€. And I'm used to ASUS Bios

[dire igloo]

elbozoii.github.io/PC-Retailer-List/

[dire igloo]

"on sale" means jack shit.
It can be a forever sale where they just take launch price and "discount" it to current market price (which is very clearly what's happening here).

If you pick any product, you not only have to justify it against its own price, but against the competition too

[dire igloo]

"on sale" can also be an actual sale while still not a worthwhile deal.
Example: 40% off a 500€ monitor that's just as good as a non-discounted 280€ monitor

[tribal kraken]

Sale means simply that it is 50€ cheaper than any other B650 board atm

[dire igloo]

If the 167€ on PCPP is accurate, that statement is not true:
https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#sort=price&c=160,161,169,158,159,166,167

Corrected filter list in case you need Wi-Fi:
https://fi.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#sort=price&c=160,161,169,158,159,166,167&V=10000,9000,8000

And for a highly detailed MB spec sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1NQHkDEcgDPm34Mns3C93K6SJoBnua-x9O-y_6hv8sPs/htmlview#

Anyways, I'll get back to work and leave you with the information overload that is Thrip's spreadsheet

Just post any followup questions etc and if they haven't been answered when I check again, I'll reply

[charred relic]

Fun day... I get to put together a parts list and order for thousands of small components!

putting it all away is even more fun!

[novel rose]

How small we talking? M2 screw small or SMD small?

[dire igloo]

SUCK MAH DICK

sorry, force of habit

Scheduled delivery for these on monday, amp will come some time next week.
Already re-organized my living room to create space, I'm so damn hyped for this

[novel rose]

Alright, its 3PM

Time to check how overpriced they are gonna be

[twin dew]

660-710e for non-XT and 720-940e for XT.
And higher because seems that some distributors are trying to scalp, above the retail shop level.

[novel rose]

All XT cards I see so far are €769-€899

[twin dew]

Depends on country and shop.

That was just what the lower, non-scalped, prices in Finland were.

With some shops having much higher prices, those that just pass along distributor prices and don't hold own stock.

[novel rose]

Hmm thats awkward, one shop has revealed their prices but store page says the cards are not in stock

Hopefully thats a case of not releasing them on the store page by accident

Oh yup it is lol

Now its in stock

[novel rose]

Lol

Jesus, was watching one store page that had 14 in stock 5 minutes ago

Now its 2 left

aaaand sold out

[visual tree]

Guess I'll be saving money until december and then buy RX 9070

Need to replace house air conditioners first since they are getting old

[novel rose]

Damn its going dirty here

[novel rose]

These are now in stock again but with a raised price

[twin dew]

Like I said, the EU Importer/distributor level is scalping.

The stores that have their own stock have the cards at significantly lower price than the ones that just sell at distributor pricing from distributor stores.

[charred relic]

I shoulda drove up to get a 9070

[novel rose]

These are (online) stores with own stock I am talking about

[twin dew]

Where the normal route is: Manufacturer -> Importer/Distributor -> Retail stores.

[charred relic]

But I can't reaaalllly afford it at the minute soI restrained myself

[visual tree]

They are selling RX 9070 (not XT) above €1000 right now 😭

[twin dew]

And at least in US with Nvidia cards, it is the card manufacturers themselves who are also scalping, so cannot know how much those EU importers/distributors have to pay.

But at least when I checked couple of stores that basically sell at distributor price + little automatic margin, the prices were insane.

And the shops that buy early or import themselves bypassing that EU level distributor step had "normal" prices for the stock they had.

[willow pike]

couple friends of mine managed to get XTs for £600

[tough owl]

I bought a framework

I’m happy

[willow pike]

neat, what kinda framework

they do many laptops, and even a desktop

i know full well what their deal is they're great

[tough owl]

A refurb 13 7640u

[willow pike]

neat

[willow pike]

overclockers.co.uk has fallen to the bots

[mental oriole]

overbotters.co.uk

[willow pike]

some retailers still have them in stock at £100 over MSRP. that's... not fantastic. better than geforces managed i guess

hopefully stabilises over next few days

still less imaginary a price than the fucking 5000s were

[jagged snow]

This is so wild

These stock issues are terrible

[willow pike]

there are enought 9070 XTs for everyone but the scalpers are going hard

we'll see if the supply keeps up to swamp the scalpers out

[jagged snow]

I can't find any on US newegg so far

[visual tree]

Some people who bought rtx 5000/rx 9000 series are selling empty boxes of GPU to trick scalping bots

Hope it works

[jagged snow]

I'm seeing them scalped for 1200usd or so right now

[visual tree]

You mean the boxes?

[jagged snow]

Nope, cards

[visual tree]

Oh, damn

I actually thought someone tricked the bots

[dire igloo]

same, same

[visual tree]

I wonder if you can still get in legal trouble if you sold an empty GPU box for a high price while clearly stating in the description (and showing pictures of an empty box) it is an empty box and not GPU

[tribal kraken]

Thanks but I dont really have questions, most of the suggested parts just would make me buy stuff multiple retailers. Most of the same 150€ price class motherboards also are mATX. The PC will be assembled, tested and warrantied by the relailer then. Thats just better when its PC owned by company.

[dire igloo]

Ah, didn't know you're going that route. Thought you were building yourself.
What shop are you limiting yourself to?

As for mATX tho: what's the issue with that?

Limiting yourself to a single shop is generally not a good idea because it reduces options and increases prices - that said, you have a strong point to still do that given it'll be a business expense

Btw, the list as you sent it is a 50/50 mix of Datatronic and Jimm's

[tribal kraken]

Most likely will buy it from Jimms PC store, they did the old one too. Allthough I've put extra storage and GPU on it later on. Changed the motherboard to non-wifi version from them on PCPP list, which is the one on sale.

[dire igloo]

Lian Li Edge is from Jimm's, so that's good

I assume you set a vendor filter in PCPP?

[tribal kraken]

Nah, I just browse the Vendor webstore mostly to see whats available. The Lian Li PSU is 2-4 week estimated lead time. Too bad they do not have english site, would link that otherwise. I just picked the same parts on PCPP and made few mistakes

[dire igloo]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense now

I pick on pcpp first and barely ever check the vendors

Mostly cuz I'm never limited to a single store and know the pcpp filter system well

[tribal kraken]

Jimms is nice as they have free delivery in Finland. So if I would get rest of parts elsewhere, they could deliver the single odd part with good deal separately. And their warranty has been really good for my cases. Unstable 13900K was replaced instantly even before the issues with them were widely known

[charred relic]

I wonder...

[cobalt ivy]

so weird, my integrated gpu is being used instead of my actual 7800 xt

ok now its normal

huh

i just cant play universe sandbox because my hardware isnt good enough? it had zero problems before

[winged valley]

no but ebay will ban you

[visual tree]

Guess they ban you if a lot of scalpers flag your account

[charred relic]

Wonder if my ancestors scalped anybody...

[willow pike]

https://x.com/HardwareUnboxed/status/1896424499400307150

Hardware Unboxed (@HardwareUnboxed) on X

Fun fact: If you see 9070 XT's sold out shortly after release, it will mean retailers will have sold more 9070 XT's than all GeForce 50 series GPUs combined.
(this includes RTX 5070 stock)

X · Mar 3, 2025, 4:56 AM

[winged valley]

No, its directly against their TOS

"no item or misleading listings" and it directly cites that

[charred relic]

So what's you folks take on the price and performance numbers on the 9070's?

Seems like a good card for people shopping that range... IMO. Assuming MSRP and no scalp.

[languid gulch]

the non-XT is meh. the XT, at its base price, is decent. the special ones that they felt the need to jack up to $800+? no thx

[charred relic]

I'll probably wait, depends on how it stacks up to what I have no when I dig into it.

I have to imagine better is coming, I'd like to go a notch up from that maybe

(even if that means waiting a bit)

[languid gulch]

it kinda feels like (maybe the charts would disprove it) there's a growing gap in RT performance between the brands now

cuz the RT performance on both of the amd cards feels kinda crap

[charred relic]

Yeah I can live with or without it personally

[languid gulch]

same

[charred relic]

I just can'st stomach Nvidia right now either

Combine those two things...

[willow pike]

if you see a 9070 XT for $600 you buy it

[languid gulch]

i feel like if you need the chungus vram the 7900XTX might still be worth it

[charred relic]

I'm guessing the 9070 XT is kinda my wheelhouse at MSRP, I have a 6750 XT now

That'll be a big jump I guess, didn't really think about it

[languid gulch]

big price jump to the XTX

[willow pike]

board partners and retailers are doing their best to fuck us, same with scalpers

[charred relic]

I'd still like to see some actual numbers, plus I can't afford yet anyhow

Spring comes with cleaning and maintenance projects around the house... which digs into the wallet.

Time to pay for the server... big spender on that one, 14.40 lol

dolla dolla bills yall

mmmm yes

it is nice

[charred relic]

Arch doesn't scare me... I ran Gentoo from stage 1 in the early 2000's heh

I wouldn't bother with Gentoo now, it was fun at the time.

[charred relic]

I typically game on Windows

[winged valley]

do you not know what proton is

[charred relic]

Si

[languid gulch]

also when they remove terms like that, does that mean it's only effective during the time it's gone, or does that mean they've now taken everything before that & sold it

oh i like to analyze absolute bullshit

[languid gulch]

i don't like the win11 task manager icon

also i hate that the simple view of task manager doesn't exist any more

[languid gulch]

weird

kinda reminds me of the early win11 schedulers issues

[charred relic]

"365 Items in Cart"

[languid gulch]

🤣

[charred relic]

mostly small electronic components like resistors, capacitors etc

Yada Electronics ;

*Tayda

Building an "auditorium" board for testing guitar pedal builds before I put them in an enclosure

has screw terminals to hook it all u p

And some parts to build another pedal

[languid gulch]

i've been wanting to convert an old radio into a pc tower

i have my grandma's old "full size" radio from like the 1930s

try a half size guitar

or 3/4

🤣

[charred relic]

Reaper is 60 bucks...

well free if you wanna keep clicking the button after like 10 seconds

No I mean... Reaper

[languid gulch]

i just know about OBS & ProTools 🤣

[charred relic]

It's just another DAW

But it's good and inexpensive.

[languid gulch]

idk how nobody's gotten killed yet

better geostationary location

and full rotation speed boost

well, almost

i feel like west europe could have a monopoly on polar launches

even reusable stuff

launch from north spain, land in ireland or UK

oh you want as close to the poles for polar launches to nullify the earth's rotation speed

french guiana's great for just about everything except polar launches

new horizons is probably my favorite one

it was the fastest to head out of here

my mom worked on them

we got the book that the company sent out once the images & instrumentation sent back info from jupiter & saturn

voy1/2

she didn't actually know that's what she was working on at the time, because some of the tech was classified & being used in spy satellites

she was "just a secretary", but had higher security clearance than her 2 immediate upper bosses because of what she had to carry back & forth

oh the sexism flew both ways in that office apparently 🤣 they were ruthless towards their male bosses

would be fun to see what exactly she worked on and what it all turned into over the years

oh, it looks like her company is one of the things that's still actually alive on the voyagers

Motorola built the comms system

apparently that division went to General Dynamics

yea, 2 different companies

🤣

ngl i think it'd be fun for literally everyone everywhere, people, companies, countries, all to declare bankruptcy as a way to blank the slate as a step towards global unification

[charred relic]

https://tenor.com/view/i-declare-bakruptcy-bankrupt-yelling-announce-declare-gif-15663557

[languid gulch]

🤣

i was thinking of Homer

[charred relic]

personally i... wouldn't

[languid gulch]

hospitals can/will treat people, and when they can't pay, it gets written off as a loss on taxes

[charred relic]

But this might be the only 1st world on the globe where getting very ill can drive you to bankruptcy

[languid gulch]

yup

[charred relic]

(even with insurance)

I know... because I'm headed there 😄

[languid gulch]

it's also a major factor in divorces

oh they'll still try to collect

[charred relic]

My healthcare itself is great, in fact I'm at one of the best places in the world for me.

Emory has been awesome 😄

[languid gulch]

i think the fact that private insurance existing in most other countries, but not holding a candle to full on socialized healthcare, is kinda the indicator of standards

[charred relic]

In an Emory hospital you order your meals from a menu

at whenever you want...within a range of times for each meal

[languid gulch]

i wanna know the logic as to why eyes and teeth magically don't count as body parts

whenever i hear someone use that term as derision or in a serious way, i can only think they have to be at least 80 years old & on full socialized healthcare themselves

🤣

i'm not that old, but i do remember people using the old cold war terms unironically

my parents will still occasionally, even tho it's been 30 years, say czechoslovakia

and i have an aunt who'll use Bohemian as if we're supposed to know exactly what that means

i'll use czech republic, sounds more formal

🤣

[inner shale]

you know how us cities grow and absorb villages

[languid gulch]

you should pull up where i'm at 😛

Phoenix, AZ

50,000km2 metro

[charred relic]

https://tenor.com/view/nodding-moon-creepy-gif-14222607

[languid gulch]

yea, not being more specific than phoenix, but i've been here my whole life, know the area pretty well

here's the new monster TSMC fab:
TSMC Arizona Corporation, West Innovation Circle, Phoenix, AZ

not surprised

we have the largest nuke plant in the country not too far from us

[charred relic]

But have you been inside

[languid gulch]

sadly no

would be fun to take a look tho

[charred relic]

I've been in the Savannah River site

[languid gulch]

Palo Verde NPP should pull it up on google earth

[charred relic]

We used to live not far from it

[languid gulch]

you can see it's 3 reactors, with obvious options for 2 more

[charred relic]

It's not really as exciting as you'd think...

[languid gulch]

nah, they'd keep the fun stuff under guard

[charred relic]

I mean it's neat and all, all the hardware and shit but yeah

well even the reactors are boring

lol

Seen one, seen em all... not really but more or less

[languid gulch]

we have i think the biggest Boeing plant outside of washington not too far from me

it's where we build Apaches

[charred relic]

wouldn't surprise me

[languid gulch]

idk if they still do it, but back in the day, during test flights they'd go along the river, then pop up over the plant & set off all the car alarms

went to a hangar last year to take a look at this old bird

i suspect that's why they chose the name Apache. won't know it's on you until it takes your head off

[languid gulch]

and it does fly over every once in a while

🤣 yea, well we got em in the museums around here

the biggest conflicts these days are mostly getting pulled over for speeding on their land and having your car towed

[charred relic]

I've been all through the USS Batfish 😄

[languid gulch]

ngl i read that as USS batshit

[charred relic]

All that old tech... and those guys underwater with it

[languid gulch]

somehow i've never played wow

[charred relic]

Pretty scary when you're inside that thing.

[languid gulch]

oh i'd never do it

i don't even want to test the risk that i'd be too claustrophobic to be in a sub

[charred relic]

all the doors you have to step over the threshhold because it's pressure doors

to seal off a compartment if flooding and can't stop

Oh when I went on it was dry dock

[languid gulch]

sailors are a special kind of crazy

[charred relic]

they are or have moved it to a proper pool of water and a dock

since the old location flooded and it was a big nightmare because the thing drived off it's resting place lol

I mean... it still floats

probably not much effort and it could submerge...

might do it now... not sure really what kinda shape it's in for that

Laid down 27 December 1942... that's an old boat

[languid gulch]

if you're ever near Tucson, hitting the Air & Space Museum and the Titan Missile Museum are great tours

[charred relic]

I want to ride in a decomissioned fighter

with a stunt pilot...

And as the final hooray... I'm gonna be like "put me to sleep"

I wanna feel those G's

[languid gulch]

nah cuz you're guaranteed to puke in your mask

[charred relic]

Nah

I'll be fine

[languid gulch]

🤣

[charred relic]

They do it to people all the time... often unintentionally. There are places you can go

The ride itself... no problemo. Won't turn my stomach heh

But I'm also the type of dude that'll jump out of a perfectly working airplane sooooo

Interestingly enough I would never do bungee jump... now THAT is dangerous o.O

[languid gulch]

want a giggle

[charred relic]

I hid it in my tumtum

It's weird though I can't tell I ate anything...

[languid gulch]

at one point this was the google earth image you'd find if you went to their base

[charred relic]

oops

[languid gulch]

"General, you know that $2 billion plane you gave me?"

[charred relic]

I mean even if you just land rough and screw the gear up that's gonna be who knows how much

[languid gulch]

oh yea it's just the previous google earth image of it 🤣 probably got asked to take another one

it always throws me off that it has 4 engines

it's insane how much weight it can carry

[charred relic]

Maximum thrust: 19,000 lbf (85 kN)