And WIFI is being used by other family members.
#off-topic-tech
twin dew
Wifi part would be separate Wifi-AP, or "emulated" AP from Wifi-Card on the router.
The only other option to get better almost full cover firewall would basically be bridge-mode firewall before the ISP router, but that is only possible if input to it is standard ethernet.
But then you would still just have same thing, with just ISP router not in bridge-mode and bypassed.
You would have it doing round of NAT-router things, then your own router inside that NAT, either as second NAT-router, or just router without NAT.
But that would mean any port forwardings etc. for internet accessible services need to be done on that ISP router.
And only the part of network behind the second router is protected by the extra things.
night girder
"And only the part of network behind the second router is protected by the extra things." - Yeah I am aware of that.
twin dew
But returning to this again, that second pic is the logical implementation in both cases, how the traffic can actually move.
Just that without VLANs, the second is also the physical implementation, and with VLANs it can be implemented as the first too.
But stuff cannot jump from WAN VLAN to LAN VLAN, without going through that router that is on both.
night girder
if configured correctly on switch yes, that's what I wanted. 👍
twin dew
But you understand why I say to first design that logical/physical without VLANs implementation.
And then convert it into VLANs for the actual physical implementation.
As you need that logical one anyways to do the switch configuration, and it is much easier to understand and plan.
night girder
But I needed the VLAN information to know how to keep the lans seperated.
Since I knew the MINI-PC had one ethernet port.
But I understand that it doesn't matter if you go LAN or VLAN and that for the planning phase it doesn't matter.
twin dew
Sorry, I left second "useless" switch entry out from the second pic.
Which would have made it even easier to understand.
That I just folder two switches and two cables into one switch, and one cable.
night girder
Two switches? 🤔
twin dew
Two switches? 🤔
Moment again.
That was why I didn't include it, as it isn't actually needed even in no-VLANs implementation, but would have made the change easier to understand between the two pics.
Recreating.
Left: Classic physical implementation, logical implementation with VLANs.
Right: Physical implementation with VLANs.
If the connection is point-to-point for that specific logical part, there isn't need for a switch, which is why it was left out of the second pic in earlier version.
Which made that conversion harder to understand.
Basically that middle got pulled to side, and the duplicate parts combined (one switch before, one switch after, and the cables between the switches and the router), and separated with VLANs instead.
Virtual LAN.
Which is part of the final physical implementation design.
Where would you need to run multiple cables, or position multiple devices near each other, which could be folded into one cable or one device and just be logically separated into VLANs instead.
And my main keyboards A-key might be dying...
Might need to swap with some much less used key and order some switches.
twin dew
Those two are theoretical.
Not about your network specifically.
night girder
ah, gotcha.
twin dew
There is always another switch on internet side, usually just at ISP end.
But any ethernet cable could be replaced with cable, switch, cable.
If the router had at least two network ports, doing the left would be the right thing to do.
That right is just what you do when you only have one port, but have VLAN capable switch.
And is just demonstration of basic "classic"/logical to "physical with VLANs" conversion.
Where you pulled the router to side, combined two ports to one, two cables to one, and two switches to one.
night girder
yeah, 4 network ports (ISP router)
twin dew
Which is just 2-port on logical level, with switch and AP after.
One WAN, one LAN.
Maybe better formatted:
night girder
The second switch, is that to seperate LAN?
and assuming the router is firewall, it will block traffic of going to 2nd switch, and going onto LAN 2?
Not sure what the purpose is of first switch though.
twin dew
Not sure what the purpose is of first switch though.
It was just there to show what was happening on that planning conversion.
Between "without VLANs" and "with VLANs"
night girder
Oh right. Flowchart.
twin dew
Normal consumer router logical implementation:
Where modem only exists if that WAN input is something else than ethernet.
Everything inside the same device.
And usually those different ports, functions and even that Wifi AP are just outputs on same chip, and could be configured to be completely independent, but the default management doesn't allow for that.
twin dew
Oh right. Flowchart.
The basic was that you design the classic/logical network.
Then mark on that logical chart the various VLAN ID numbers, physical device port numbers, etc. to be used so they don't overlap.
To minimize the amount of physical devices, ports, cables etc. needed.
Without affecting throughput too much.
twin dew
Yup, which in actual design are numbers from 1 to 4095 (VLAN Tag ID)
And using that 1 is bad idea.
twin dew
As it is almost always the default.
Basically that first plan (logical) is about how the network is supposed to work, not caring about physical port limits, device locations, etc. at all.
Then number those network segments with VLAN tag IDs so they aren't reused anywhere.
Then make second plan with the physical layout based on those VLAN assignments.
And add which physical port will connect to which cable.
Then configure switch ports and devices to use correct VLAN tags for ports with multiple VLANs on them, and to just not accept incoming tagged traffic, and assign fixed tag for traffic on ports that only service one VLAN tag.
night girder
made up vlan numbers, not implementation.
twin dew
So in that example the WAN and LAN only ports on the switch would be set to fixed tags, and the port to router would be set to allow tagged traffic for the two specific tags.
Makes so that no device on the LAN side can send traffic saying it is on WAN VLAN instead, and bypass the router.
Or other way.
And only router can say which VLAN the specific IP packet it sent belongs to, everything else is set by the switch itself.
night girder
Maybe this is better.
twin dew
Based on the port it arrives, or leaves on.
Port 1: Fixed WAN VLAN (2), tagged traffic goes to trash, connected towards internet.
Port 2: Tagged traffic with WAN VLAN (2) or LAN VLAN (3) allowed, untagged traffic goes to trash, connected to router.
Port 3-X, Fixed LAN VLAN (3), tagged traffic goes to trash, connected to any LAN devices.
Moment, will find the switch manual...
night girder
Or maybe I need to make a diagram like this?
twin dew
Or maybe I need to make a diagram like this?
Which I have been telling you to make as that logical plan step?
night girder
Sorry sorry, I am new to this.
All you said is make a diagram 🤣
I don't know how to make it look, or group, or where to add vlan.
twin dew
Basically that first plan (logical) is about how the network is supposed to work...
That shows that first step, with some extra information about the exact IP configuration for each part etc.
twin dew
Port 1: Fixed WAN VLAN (2), tagged traffic goes to trash, connected towards inte...
And in this that fixed VLAN is "U (Untagged)" for the Port specific config (port 1, 3-X), and with only one VLAN configured to use them (one for port 1, another for 3-X), with PVID set to the VLAN the port is for.
And that Port 2 would be T (Tagged), for the two VLANs, with PVID set to VLAN number that isn't in use otherwise.
And Acceptable Frame set to Untagged only for the fixed ones, and VLAN Only for that port 2.
If I understood that manual correctly.
So that Port 1 has only single untagged VLAN allowed (WAN).
Port 2 has two tagged VLANs allowed (WAN, LAN).
And port 3+ has only single untagged VLAN allowed (LAN).
twin dew
How is untagged = WAN? (port 1 example you gave).
"Untagged": Traffic coming from this port isn't allowed to say it belongs to whatever VLAN tag it wants to.
But gets assigned into specific one based on port.
"Tagged", traffic is allowed to say it belongs to one of these tags on the list.
You don't want device on LAN be able to say it is on the WAN VLAN and bypass the router.
You don't want device in WAN be able to say it is on LAN VLAN and bypass the router.
night girder
ok give me a few hours
twin dew
So most of the ports get configured to not allow device to tag traffic, but automatically tag it based on the port.
And only send traffic belonging to that VLAN onto that port, removing the tag, so the device only sees basic IP packet, not VLAN header equipped IP packet.
Only ports that need to support multiple VLANs at same time are set to allow tagged traffic.
So the other side can say which VLAN that specific IP packet belongs to.
So ports going to just one device, or dumb switches, are usually set to that restricted mode.
And trunk ports (ports between multiple VLAN capable switches), and to devices which need to talk to multiple VLANs over same port are allowed to tag traffic themselves.
twin dew
So VLAN 10 accepts untagged.
That wasn't about VLANs, it was about configuring specific switch ports to actually use and enforce the VLAN limits.
On what can talk with what.
night girder
And to change to that kind of VLAN config, you would create two new VLANs in it.
Configure one port to only work as WAN VLAN port with no VLAN tags allowed and connect that to the ISP router.
Then configure another port to allow VLAN tagged traffic with WAN and LAN tags and connect that to the mini-PC router.
And configure rest of the ports only allow LAN VLAN traffic, with no VLAN tags allowed.
I am trying to figure that out.
twin dew
So that A cannot just send IP packet that has header saying "I'm on VLAN 30!".
night girder
VLAN 10 port, accepts untagged.
VLAN 20 port accepts WAN/LAN. ANd VLAN 30 port accepts LAN.
twin dew
VLAN 10 port, accepts untagged.
There is no "VLAN 10 Port" concept.
There is VLAN ID 10.
Then there is physical Switch port 10.
You configure that physical switch port X makes so that any traffic it gets or sends belongs to VLAN ID Y.
night girder
Yeah, that's what I mean with port. The physical ethernet port.
twin dew
Unless that port needs to be able to work with multiple VLANs at same time.
And that pic you sent worked on the VLAN level, not port level.
twin dew
This.
Where there was one switch, with unspecified ports.
Two computers, two routers, and three VLANs.
night girder
Ok, the images are only confusing me more and more.
And I don't think I need those anyway.
But I think I understand it a bit better now. Maybe?
twin dew
In that example, if the two trunk ports were untagged type:
Switch X, port 2, is set to Untagged 22.
Switch X, port 7 is set to Untagged 33.
Switch X, Port X (going to the other switch), is set as Untagged 22.
Switch Y, Port Y (going to the other switch), is set as Untagged 33.
Switch Y, Port 18 is set as Untagged 22.
Switch Y, Port 23 is set as Untagged 33.
When Computer A sends IP packet without VLAN header, Switch X tags it with VLAN tag 22.
That packet now belongs to VLAN 22.
Then it sends it onwards onto that trunk, which is on VLAN 22 in that switch, but it removes that VLAN header.
Switch Y receives untagged IP packet, sets its tag to VLAN tag 33.
Sends it to Computer D, untagging it.
Computer D receives packet without VLAN tag.
Traffic from B or C to any other computer cannot happen.
As any traffic from B gets tagged as VLAN 33, but there are no other ports that Switch X has with Tag 33 allowed.
And same with C, as that gets tagged as VLAN 22, but Switch Y has no other Tag 22 allowed ports.
If the switch trunk ports were type allowing tagged traffic with Tag 22 and Tag 33:
Then A and C could talk because both are on same VLAN.
B and D could talk because both are on same VLAN.
A and D could talk because of that implicit conversion in the trunk in some cases.
Personally if you allow trunked traffic to be multiple VLANs, that kind of reusing same VLANs for the PVID (native VLAN) of the trunk ports is very bad idea.
And the PVIDs of all the trunk ports should be something that isn't used for any of the real ports.
Which that "Don't allow untagged traffic" also enforces in your switch.
To not get any chance of that kind of implicit conversions between VLANs, and it also protects against specific double-VLAN-headered attacks.
Where you have multiple VLAN headers over same IP packet, each with different VLAN tag, and one leg of the transfer will use outer header, then strip it.
And next switch then sees that inner header with another VLAN tag and you get "illegal" jump between VLANs.
night girder
Ok, but that's a bit too much information right now 🤣
My head is already cooking. And I don't see the forest for the trees. Or is it the trees for the forest? "Ik kan door het bos de bomen niet meer zien!"
twin dew
Basically that pic you put and removed seems to have been warning about "don't do this"
twin dew
Ok, but that's a bit too much information right now 🤣
Which was the point in first doing the logical chart.
As that is the base of everything, and rest is just then implementation details.
Where you add details bit by bit.
night girder
twin dew
Then add all the VLANs in switch.
Then add ports to those VLANs.
Then add limitations and remove the default to have VLAN 1 for everything.
So that only the explicitly set traffic is allowed, and VLAN jumping isn't possible.
night girder
Host A is attempting to send a frame to Host C. When it arrives on the switch, Switch X associates the traffic with VLAN #22. When the frame is forwarded out Switch X’s Trunk port, no tag is added since the Native VLAN for the Trunk Port on Switch X is also VLAN #22.
But when the frame arrives on Switch Y without a tag, Switch Y has no way of knowing the traffic should belong to VLAN #22. All it can do is associate the untagged traffic with what Switch Y’s Trunk port has configured as the Native VLAN, which in this case is VLAN #33.
twin dew
Yeah, that was what I said that that allows that A talk to D, even when they are on theory in different VLANs.
And A cannot talk with C, even when they should.
To not have "legit" VLAN ID/Tag in use as "native"/PVID VLAN TAG for ports that do tagged traffic.
Like trunk ports between switches.
Doesn't directly affect your case, as you will at least to start only have one switch.
night girder
Ok, will start looking into this. Without not trying to break anything.
If I fuck this up, I might lose remote access to my switch right?
twin dew
Ok, will start looking into this. Without not trying to break anything.
Basically the latter parts were saying which selection to do in GS308T:s VLAN management side.
night girder
Yeah, I am looking at it right now.
I am trying to see if I can setup everything without breaking the default.
And then switch the default out at the end.
twin dew
Where you first "Configure VLAN Settings" to add the needed VLANs:
WAN, LAN, Trunk native.
Then configure specific ports to those "Configure VLAN Membership".
And "Configure Port PVID Settings" (that port-based/Native VLAN ID).
Setting that last one to anything else than that 1 will kill the current connectivity.
Same if you set Acceptable Frame to anything but Admit All.
Or remove that port from that VLAN 1 in that membership part.
night girder
I still find it weird that we need to untag ports.
twin dew
And in this that fixed VLAN is "U (Untagged)" for the Port specific config (port...
So this means: (port numbers freely selectable, just need to plug right cable in each port)
Port 1:
Memberships: VLAN WAN Untagged, not member of rest of VLANs.
PVID: WAN VLAN ID
Acceptable Frame: Admit Untagged Only
Makes Port 1 force traffic to belong to WAN VLAN ID, any traffic that tries to "manually" assign VLAN with IP header will be dropped.
Port 2:
Memberships: VLAN WAN Tagged, VLAN LAN Tagged, not member of rest of VLANs.
PVID: Trunk native ID
Acceptable Frame: VLAN Only.
Makes port 2 not accept traffic without manual VLAN tag in IP header, only allows two specific VLANs in tagged form, traffic on that Trunk native ID would get sent out untagged, but as there is no such ID in use, nothing ever does.
Port 3+:
Membership: VLAN LAN Untagged, not member of rest of VLANs.
PVID: LAN VLAN ID
Acceptable Frame: Admit Untagged Only.
night girder
In my head; shouldn't we tag the ports with the VLAN ID instead of untagging. (the little U on the ports in screenshot is untagged).
twin dew
In my head; shouldn't we tag the ports with the VLAN ID instead of untagging. (t...
Point is to send the traffic to that port without tag.
So the device connected doesn't need VLAN config done in it.
night girder
but I guess we tell, if connection comes into ports 1,2,3,4,5. Untag it so it can't go all over the network?
twin dew
When switch sends something to a computer/device connected to that port.
That is what sets that.
Switch gets packet with VLAN header X.
Sees it should send that packet out via Port Y.
Removes that VLAN header from IP packet and the device which is connected to that port just sees standard non-tagged Ethernet frame.
(replace all previous IP packet with Ethernet Frame).
Otherwise you would need to do VLAN config on all computers/devices.
Not just in the router.
And switch.
night girder
👍
twin dew
So that controls what happens when ethernet frame is sent OUT on that specific port, if it was tagged with VLAN tag X.
If the tag is retained, or not.
And for incoming frame is to be processed, and not dropped, it must be untagged (ports PVID will be used as VLAN tag), or have valid VLAN tag that that port is member for.
And that Acceptable Frame can be on port basis configure if Untagged will be allowed at all, or if Tagged is allowed at all.
So basically you want computer to just send untagged traffic to switch, that gets marked with ports PVID VLAN tag.
And switch to only send one specific VLANs traffic to the computer, and remove the VLAN tag header so it is untagged when computer receives it.
If possible, when that specific computers LAN port doesn't need to talk on multiple VLANs.
Depending on what that computers OS decides each frame needs to belong to.
Which in your case is only needed for that mini-pc router.
night girder
So for port 1,2,3 (in your example) I can set ports all to untagged?
Or does port 1 need to keep the tags?
Because port 2 belongs to VLAN WAN Tagged, VLAN LAN Tagged membership.
twin dew
You create WAN VLAN, LAN VLAN.
Then in WAN VLAN memberships, set one port to be untagged (going towards the ISP router).
One port to be tagged (going to the mini-PC router).
No other ports to be members at all.
LAN VLAN memberships:
One port to be tagged (same as in previous for WAN, to mini-PC router).
Rest of ports as untagged, except that WAN VLAN untagged port.
night girder
Ah, ok understand.
twin dew
So on LAN VLAN page, that single port must not be member at all, that goes to ISP router and is member of WAN VLAN.
And then set PVIDs so that PVID for WAN port/ISP router port is same as WAN VLAN ID.
And PVIDs for the LAN ports are same as LAN VLAN ID.
And the port going to mini-PC router has PVID that is neither, and preferrably isn't 1 either.
night girder
I also got link aggregation on top of it all 😄
stupid switch keeps logging me out while I am typing
twin dew
So for single port, all traffic is on WAN VLAN (ISP router).
Single port can choose (Mini-PC router) on per ethernet frame basis.
And rest of the ports, all traffic is on LAN VLAN.
twin dew
I also got link aggregation on top of it all 😄
Which is just to get more bandwidth between two devices, in some cases.
night girder
Which is just to get more bandwidth between two devices, in some cases.
What did you just say?
I got so much 💩 for saying that once in here.
"Link Aggregation is mostly if a cable would fail Letterdief, most of the time it doesn't add bandwidth etc."
twin dew
I got link aggregation on two 1G ports between two switches, so in theory that link can do 2G.
But as that split is based on who is talking to who, you need at least three devices for it to do anything, and even then the common device would need faster connection too.
night girder
Exactly!
If you have one device connecting to NAS, link aggregation wont double the bandwith to that one device. If I remember correctly.
twin dew
"Link Aggregation is mostly if a cable would fail Letterdief, most of the time i...
Fail-over is another use case.
But much less used on switch level, more of computer level thing.
Switch link aggregation: making trunks wider than single port.
Computer link aggregation: making connection to one switch to be wider, or to allow for failure tolerance.
night girder
If you have 10 different devices connecting to NAS, it can help.
twin dew
If you have one device connecting to NAS, link aggregation wont double the bandw...
Nope, as each devices traffic gets assigned to one specific physical link, based on for example MAC address, or IP.
But two different devices, one can talk on one link, other on the other.
But depending on that traffic assignment algorithm, both might get assigned to same link anyways.
And other be completely unused.
twin dew
If you have 10 different devices connecting to NAS, it can help.
Very good chance that the traffic would be pretty well balanced over the two links with 10 devices talking to a NAS at same time.
And getting just cable level failure tolerance is pretty shitty.
As for link aggregation all of them must connect exact same two devices.
night girder
[VLAN 1]
Port 1 U
Port 2 T
Port 3
Port 4
Port 5
Port 6
Port 7
Port 8[VLAN 2]
Port 1
Port 2 T
Port 3 U
Port 4 U
Port 5 U
Port 6 U
Port 7 U
Port 8 UWAN PORT 1
FIREWALL PORT 2
LAN PORT 3,4,5,6,7,8
So that would be a theoretical setup of the ports with tags/untags.
twin dew
Yup.
And port 1 would have PVID of 1, and 3-8 PVID of 2, and Port 2 something completely different.
winged valley
MAN all this AN talk is really making me WANt to explode
twin dew
(but don't use that VLAN/PVID 1)
night girder
No no, theoretical 😄
winged valley
Typoed LAN as AN.
*AN I forgot the wildcard
night girder
That "WANt" was intentional.
Thanks Baldur, my brain is totally somewhere else.
Didn't get the joke 🤣
winged valley
I was making a joke because I opened the chat and it was just WAN VLAN LAN VLAN VLAN WAN LAN
night girder
And port 1 would have PVID of 1, and 3-8 PVID of 2, and Port 2 something complet...
Ok, let me look into PVID's now 😄
twin dew
And remember that you need to change what VLAN has management access before you remove last port from default VLAN 1.
night girder
I am just writing down, not implementing yet.
and at the same time investigating switch options to see how it all works.
I don't fully understand why we need to setup PVID's.
Isn't setting up membership enough?
Because I think PVID's would look like this:
PORT 1 PVID 1111 VLAN MEMBER 1111
PORT 2 PVID 2222 VLAN MEMBER 2222
PORT 3-8 PVID 3333 VLAN MEMBER 3333
twin dew
Port VLAN ID.
What VLAN ID any incoming traffic on that port gets assigned to, if it isn't tagged.
Native VLAN ID in some documentation.
night girder
That's how it looks on a netgear. But you see. People assign id 2. And then say member is 2.
twin dew
Memberships control tagged traffic.
PVID sets what tag gets assigned to any incoming untagged traffic.
Incoming to switch, via that port.
night girder
Oh right.
So, port 3-8 should also allow VLAN 2 as a member?
and port 2 accept vlan 1111?
twin dew
And that Acceptable Frame (Admit All) in the example pic for all ports, sets if untagged, tagged, or both, are allowed.
night girder
networking is fun 
twin dew
Because I think PVID's would look like this:
> PORT 1 PVID 1111 ...
Wrong for Port 2.
If:
WAN is 1111.
LAN is 3333.
Trunk/Invalid is 2222.
PORT 2 PVID 2222 VLAN MEMBER 1111 Tagged, 3333 Tagged VLAN Only
PORT 3-8 PVID 3333 VLAN MEMBER 3333 Untagged Admit Untagged Only```And if necessary, then add 2222 Untagged to that Port 2 too.
Depends on switch if PVID has to also be a member or not.
Basically point is that any traffic with VLAN ID 2222 is not valid and should not be moved anywhere.
And that the Mini-PC OS must always set either VLAN 1111 or VLAN 3333, and not send anything untagged.
night girder
Basically point is that any traffic with VLAN ID 2222 is not valid and should no...
You mean any VLAN ID 2222 untaged shouldn't move awnywhere?
Oh wait. No.
Why the hell is this so complex. Goddamit.
twin dew
Oh wait. No.
Point is that any untagged traffic coming from that Mini-PC Router isn't legit, and shouldn't be handled.
So it is assigned to VLAN by that PVID 2222, that isn't transferred anywhere.
night girder
Nobody came up with a more intuitive way for all this 🤣
twin dew
As if on Linux, that Mini-PC Linux OS would have three logical LAN-adapters:
eth0, eth0:1111 and eth0:3333.
And it should only use those :1111 and :3333 ones, and that base one should be unconfigured.
night girder
twin dew
Yeah, like I said, Port 2 might also need to be Untagged Member of VLAN 2222.
For the config to be allowed.
night girder
Yeah, like I said, Port 2 might also need to be Untagged Member of VLAN 2222.
That's why I bring it up.
twin dew
So redo:
If:
WAN is 1111.
LAN is 3333.
Trunk/Invalid is 2222.
PORT 2 PVID 2222 VLAN MEMBER 1111 Tagged, 3333 Tagged, (2222 Untagged) VLAN Only
PORT 3-8 PVID 3333 VLAN MEMBER 3333 Untagged Admit Untagged Only```I think I understand 90% of it now 😄
night girder
> [VLAN 1]
> Port 1 U
> Port 2 T
> Port 3
> Port 4
> Port 5
> Port...
Did I forget the 3rd VLAN here?
twin dew
Devices on port 1 cannot specify VLAN.
Anything sent from device to switch is automatically assigned to VLAN 1111.
Only traffic on VLAN 1111 can be sent out from switch to device(s) on port 1, and that traffic gets untagged, so that the device(s) don't need VLAN config in OS.
Devices on port 2 must specify VLAN, only 1111 and 3333 allowed.
Anything sent from device to switch must be tagged by devices OS with VLAN tag 1111 or 3333.
Only traffic on VLANs 1111 and 3333 will be sent out from switch to device(s) on port 2, and traffic is still tagged. Device needs to have VLAN config in OS.
Devices on ports 3-8 cannot specify VLAN.
Anything sent from device to switch is automatically assigned to VLAN 3333.
Only traffic on VLAN 3333 can be sent out from switch to device(s) on port 1, and that traffic gets untagged, so that the device(s) don't need VLAN config in OS.
night girder
Devices on port 1 cannot specify VLAN.
Anything sent from device to switch is au...
"Anything from device to switch must be tagged by devices OS with VLAN tags 1111 or 3333." 👍
That's the missing piece of the puzzle for me!
twin dew
With that VLAN 2222 as invalid VLAN where nothing should be going, but any untagged traffic from Port 2 would in theory be tagged with that.
But that VLAN Only should drop any.
Or by not being member of that VLAN should also do it, and also make sure that if something else generated VLAN 2222 traffic, it couldn't go out via Port 2 to Mini-PC, as that port wouldn't be member for it.
If PVID that isn't member is allowed.
night girder
It allows to set different members.
but if it works, I don't know. I don't get a warning that it isn't allowed atleast.
twin dew
Yeah, then having that Port 2 to actually be member in that "Invalid" VLAN that is has as PVID would be counterproductive for that VLAN ID to be black hole for any network traffic that tries to use it.
When basic idea is to just not allow that port to have any "native" traffic without set VLAN header attached when it arrives to the switch.
night girder
I cannot leave it empty though.
but I could give port 2 a bullshit VLAN member id maybe.
twin dew
As in that VLAN must have at least one port?
Then set it to that Port 2 Untagged.
For that blackhole invalid VLAN.
night girder
give me a second.
twin dew
Port 2 already should be Tagged member of the two other VLANs.
night girder
I'll try to configure 3 unused ports.
twin dew
The point of that Invalid/2222 was to be the bullshit invalid VLAN.
twin dew
And I need to find the manual again to see the column headers..
twin dew
Already found.
twin dew
Yeah, like I expected, you cannot set PVID that isn't VLAN Member.
Basically this is fine if G6 is WAN, G7 is mini and G8 is LAN.
And VLAN 6 is WAN, VLAN 7 is invalid/bullshit and VLAN 8 is LAN.
twin dew
Yup, that is the better config.
night girder
for some reason, first time I tried that. It replaced "6,8" to "6-8" as VLAN member. Must have pressed something wrong.
Oh, cool. Based on this configuration.
It set up the ports for me I believe.
which is incorrect ofc.
But it tried 🤣
twin dew
Exactly right?
So in that pic:
WAN is 6.
LAN is 8.
Trunk/Invalid/bullshit is 7.
PORT 7 PVID 7 VLAN MEMBER 6 Tagged, 8 Tagged VLAN Only
PORT 8 PVID 8 VLAN MEMBER 8 Untagged Admit Untagged Only```No? Since WAN comes into port 1.
port 2 goes to mini. port 3-8 needs to be untagged.
twin dew
In all of this you always edited ports 6, 7 and 8.
night girder
> [VLAN 1]
> Port 1 U
> Port 2 T
> Port 3
> Port 4
> Port 5
> Port...
You said this was alright I think?
twin dew
In the final config.
But you set up correctly to use ports 6, 7 and 8 as test with actual hardware.
While retaining ports 1-5 as current.
night girder
Oh ofc! Yeah, PVID is port config.
twin dew
So in that current config:
Mini-PC: PORT 7 PVID 7 VLAN MEMBER 6 Tagged, 8 Tagged VLAN Only
LAN: PORT 8 PVID 8 VLAN MEMBER 8 Untagged Admit Untagged Only```Yeah, forgot I don't want to mess with my used ports atm 🤣
twin dew
Exactly right, except on different ports than in earlier messages.
But you can now use that to set everything up, by just connecting that Port 6 to any of the ports 1-5 with looping network cable.
Then connecting that Mini-PC to port 7.
And plugging some computer to test behind Port 8 once that Mini-PC is set up.
And basically need to first connect that Mini-PC to the normal ports while setting it up at first, until that VLAN tagging is set up inside OS.
night girder
Yeah, else device can't communicate with internet.
Or with lan even 🤔
But implementing it with silly ports (6,7,8) in switch made it a bit more clear. And your explenations.
pure karma
i have it and i prefer TSR
pure karma
oh, yes TEASR
hides the games imperfections better
cant look bad if its all bad type of thing
verbal raft
hides the games imperfections better
pure karma
thats called cheating
pure karma
i play things how they are not how i modify them
verbal raft
i play things how they are not how i modify them
too bad
pure karma
i got the cloudy foundation special
part of that new upcoming dlc they been talking about lol
verbal raft
i got the cloudy foundation special
lumen is the cleanest and best looking form of RT ever
pure karma
when its not a cloudy mess yes
verbal raft
when its not a cloudy mess yes
jokes aside lumen is THE MOST NOISY RT i HAVE EVER SEEN
ITS THE SHITTIEST OF SHITE
especially reflections
twin dew
I would need to care what was/is the performance difference between 4070 and 4070 Super.
pure karma
5080 couldent so why would the 5070
twin dew
5080 couldent so why would the 5070
5080 couldn't best 4070 Super?
verbal raft
WDYM MEAN "nO" ????
NEVEDEA CLAIMED 4090 plerfrolmance (jk)
pure karma
no the 5080 couldent beat the 4080 so why would the 5070 beat the 4070
verbal raft
no the 5080 couldent beat the 4080 so why would the 5070 beat the 4070
❓❓❓❓❓❓
twin dew
5080 did beat 4080?
verbal raft
no the 5080 couldent beat the 4080 so why would the 5070 beat the 4070
the 5080 beat the 4080
pure karma
with overclocking yea
twin dew
with overclocking yea
Or are you thinking about 5080 vs. 4090?
verbal raft
the 5080 beat the 4080
yes, nothing meaningfull but it Did
twin dew
Because 5080 was 5-20% improvement over 4080.
verbal raft
Because 5080 was 5-20% improvement over 4080.
20% is very generous
verbal raft
In few very specific games.
fair
pure karma
idk but the new frame gen is kinda cool even if it still sucks
twin dew
Point was that depending on game and settings, it would be in that 5-20% range.
twin dew
Into which that specific average fits into.
verbal raft
lol
this is why i dont think the 5070 will beat the 4070 supah
ADA refresh is like raptor lake refresh
verbal raft
this is why i dont think the 5070 will beat the 4070 supah
and it has less cores
night girder
btw lightning, that sales report you posted yesterday.
pure karma
it has less everything other than memory speed
night girder
Did you take a look at the account posting it?
dire igloo
this is why i dont think the 5070 will beat the 4070 supah
but Nvidia said it'd perform like a 4090
verbal raft
Did you take a look at the account posting it? <:hehe:382483156542029825>
uh no
night girder
It seemed a lot of posts was in favor of AMD, so account seemed a bit bias. But that was my take of it.
So they post a lot AMD 👍 Intel 👎
pure karma
like 70% of tech channels right now
night girder
At first I though it was an account that posted sales every week. So we can compare. But that wasn't the case.
verbal raft
like 70% of tech channels right now
OOF
night girder
But since it seems to be cherry picking. I didn't find the data valuable.
verbal raft
and it has less cores
16% less
ADA refresh wont be 16% faster core per core than regular ADA
night girder
but I am not a twitter/x user, so I was confused why the post feed was not sorted on date.
dire igloo
Yeah, seems my gut feeling was right 😄
confirmation bias
night girder
Go look yourself. Tired.
verbal raft
Go look yourself. Tired.
😭
night girder
And make your own conclussion. I know I did more work than 99% in here.
Who just look at data and started to shit post on Intel.
dire igloo
also: if there's more evidence presented towards one theory over another, you might wanna consider that theory to be right
pure karma
coudlent care less
night girder
Have fun circle jerking.
pure karma
your all still going to go haha amd good intel bad anyway lol
night girder
I mean, it is that at this point.
Bunch of AMD fanboys looking at cherry picked data. And saying Intel is doomed.
Which made me raise an eyebrown.
verbal raft
Bunch of AMD fanboys looking at cherry picked data. And saying Intel is doomed.
how can you **know **its cherry picked ?
twin dew
how can you **know **its cherry picked ?
By selecting source(s) and time-period
verbal raft
how can you **know **its cherry picked ?
like, okay, it might be cherry picked but
when amazon has this
night girder
I am still looking for sale data that says Intel 99% AMD 1% or something, on that account
verbal raft
going on
twin dew
Those numbers are just too rounded to be from direct source of sales...
And any try to discern number of sales from stock numbers will not work.
night girder
That's something different. Just felt baited with the sales 😄
verbal raft
I am still looking for sale data that says Intel 99% AMD 1% or something, on tha...
are you sure that that account has existed Before RYZEN ?
night girder
Especially for people who are very into accurate information in this channel.
verbal raft
are you sure that that account has existed Before RYZEN ?
i cannont see Intel 99% AMD 1% **ever **happening since RYZEN
dire igloo
Who just look at data and started to shit post on Intel.
main thing I found was him endorsing bullshit politics, the rest is just nonsense
nothing that'd make me say he's reverse UBM guy
verbal raft
i cannont see Intel 99% AMD 1% **ever **happening since RYZEN
only during the darkest days of FX
twin dew
But that guy has been posting Mindfactory sales numbers for long time?
dire igloo
yeah
night girder
dire igloo
almost as if there was primarily one company making gaming-capable iGPUs in the last few years
selection bias
dire igloo
standard letterdief
this
like, seriously, you can't be that stupid
I refuse to believe that you're this superficial
verbal raft
like, seriously, you can't be that stupid
watch out
he is gonna call us all AMD fans again
twin dew
And like I said, that account has been posting weekly CPU sales by Mindfactory for long time.
night girder
oof, hit a nerve there did I
dire igloo
btw, could it be that you aren't logged in to the site?
because if you aren't: twitter is not showing you all the tweets
so you have a gigantic selection bias
night girder
I don't have twitter/x! If you read what i said, you would know this. Since i mentioned it a few minutes ago.
twin dew
I don't have twitter/x! If you read what i said, you would know this. Since i me...
Yeah, and if you don't have account and aren't logged on, the post listing for accounts will be crap.
verbal raft
night girder
Yeah, and if you don't have account and aren't logged on, the post listing for a...
I never use it, tf I know.
twin dew
On some accounts you just get years old posts instead of current ones.
night girder
Just saw lightning post some "facts/data" about sales. Wanted to investigate source. Made my conclussion.
twin dew
Basically you can only read tweets you were directly linked to.
And not even full threads.
dire igloo
it's hiding >99% of a user's posts
night girder
I don't know the source either. Never heard of TechEpiphany.
Then YT feed gave me same vibe 🤷♂️
dire igloo
btw, don't get me wrong, this TechEpiphany guy is far from a trustable source.
But I am yet to see any convincing evidence towards them being an AMD shill
twin dew
Who, when checked in other sources, has been posting MindFactory weekly sales numbers for years.
And has been quoted at times by lot of tech news.
dire igloo
all you produced was "looks like" type of evidence
which is nonsensical and you should know better
night girder
btw, don't get me wrong, this TechEpiphany guy is far from a trustable source.
B...
Then why call me stupid for being critical thinker?
dire igloo
also: there is no natural balance to everything. some stuff is as one-sided as it seems
dire igloo
Then why call me stupid for being critical thinker?
I called you stupid for calling me paid
twin dew
Then why call me stupid for being critical thinker?
From doing very faulty checking on one place.
And not trying anything else.
dire igloo
because it's essentially this bullshit pseudoscience death spiral "this is the truth, there's a conspiracy to cover it up and everyone that says otherwise is part of the conspiracy"
verbal raft
good thing i can log into tweeeter
dire igloo
Then why call me stupid for being critical thinker?
you weren't a fuckin critical thinker, you were a superficial thinker searching for confirmation
night girder
If I posted that, I got called out 1000000%.
verbal raft
twin dew
No, I have no idea if the numbers are good.
But I know the guy has been posting those numbers regularly for long time.
With specific source (MindFactory.de only).
dire igloo
If I check facts. It's not good. <:tired_jace:807645447258243072>
except you did anything but checking facts. you just rambled about this guy being trustworthy based on "looks like", his scarce youtube upload history and a twitter feed that we have now established to be immensely flawed
verbal raft
night girder
you weren't a fuckin critical thinker, you were a superficial thinker searching ...
I wasn't searching confirmation. I said that was my take of it when I looked at it.
night girder
And then presented information on what I concluded my take.
But that's all I had to say 🤣
dire igloo
I wasn't searching confirmation. I said that was my take of it when I looked at ...
they primarily reported on the one company that's had the upper hand in the last like 2-3 years and not the other company that had issue after issue receiving criticism on end, must be clearly biased
big ass enlightened centrist vibes right there
"the truth is always in the middle" type of bullshit
verbal raft
But that's all I had to say 🤣
you said more than that
dire igloo
And then presented information on what I concluded my take.
while yapping about cherrypicking info in a discussion where the most cherrypicked information was presented by yourself - tho unintentionally for the most part
verbal raft
you said more than that
especially the "have fun circle jerking"
dire igloo
also, not using the platform doesn't mean you don't know how it works or don't have an account
twin dew
you said more than that
Which was exactly the reason I said he had been posting weekly numbers with same method for years at this point.
When checked.
dire igloo
I don't use facebook or instagram, but I still have an account on both of those platforms
I just don't interact with it
charred relic
im not going to be the pivot man this time... i was pivot man last time
twin dew
Because I remembered someone doing that, and wanted to cross check, then noticed it was the same account everyone has been quoting for long time when those numbers show some notable change.
And everyone quotes him, as there is no other such source available.
And if he is MindFactory.de employee, then rounding to nearest 10 makes kind of sense.
verbal raft
And if he is MindFactory.de employee, then rounding to nearest 10 makes kind of ...
for the lower end he rounds stuff to 5
verbal raft
And everyone quotes him, as there is no other such source available.
i think ive seen a retailer have stuff like "amount sold in past month"
verbal raft
i think ive seen a retailer have stuff like "amount sold in past month"
but that was like rounded to 50K or something
like 50K+
stray badger
this channel hasnt been fun in ages
verbal raft
this channel hasnt been fun in ages
plz dont tell me you are about to leave too
verbal raft
but that was like rounded to 50K or something
ahh it was amazon
dire igloo
@night girder since you can't access the proper post history, I took a sample of the ten most recent posts on this guy's account (excluding pinned post and comments, including QRT/RT), we have:
2 related to social media: shilling Twitter for being much better now compared to 2-3 years ago and reposting GN about YT automatic ad placement
3 about German politics, shilling the Trump administration
one QRT of Musk's social security age range post
4 actually related to hardware: twitter-survey about how people value RT, rumors of TSMC/Broadcom acquisition of Intel, QRT of someone calling AMD's GPU naming a marketing desaster, Amazon US GPU bestsellers for January and February
also: dude's Twitter UI is in German
verbal raft
also: dude's Twitter UI is in German
makes it possible that he works at mindfactory
like baldur theorised
🤔
twin dew
Has been posting those numbers from MindFactory.de for at least 6 years at this point.
Don't know if actually every week or not.
dire igloo
here's one of the graphics he posted, credited to digitec/galaxus
verbal raft
🤔
i also dont know why he would be going around falsefying info (like letterdief hinted to)
the explanation : "he seems like an AMD fan" doesnt make sense
why would he do that ?
verbal raft
here's one of the graphics he posted, credited to digitec/galaxus
interesting
night girder
<@243383537632280579> since you can't access the proper post history, I took a s...
Let's just agree to disagree. Or disagree to disagree on this topic, honestly I don't care. Don't want to spent 4-6 hours of going back and forth. I, myself, have questions about how neutral/unbiased TechEpiphany is. I don't know who they are, never heard of them. The twitter feed I looked at was incomplete. I didn't know. But I spend 5 minutes scrolling and what I found was mostly AMD posts. Then I went to their YT, and I find mostly AMD videos. First videos posted on that channel are all about AMD. So based on those two things, I considered they might be to a degree biased towards AMD. If I am right or wrong I leave up to debate. Just what I think.
dire igloo
damn, dude's holding back with his political postings so far
nothing that I'd deem sufficient for him to lose his job
dire igloo
i also dont know why he would be going around falsefying info (like letterdief h...
ahem, UBM guy, ahem
dire igloo
Let's just agree to disagree. Or disagree to disagree on this topic, honestly I...
I also heavily question their reliability as a source, but for different reasons.
they do seem to be a fan of AMD's actions, but nothing that makes me suspect them to not be impartial for data-driven posts - and I would absolutely not go as far as insinuating falsified data
tho if anyone used their info as a source for anything, I'd ask for cross-verification with a second source
jagged snow
I love how viable old tech is sometimes
twin dew
And would need to be averaged for much longer duration than a week for any kind of "comprehensive" picture.
jagged snow
Setting up a 5mp film digitiser with an old dell dimension running windows xp
First time in a good while I've installed something off a disk
twin dew
And differences like that can for example also come into things like that MindFactory.de is cheap source in Germany to get AMD CPUs, but Intel CPUs are more expensive than competitors.
So people buying Intel use other sources more.
charred relic
I used to love those AOL disks...
I'd get another one in the mail and be like "hey look another blank disk"
...then CD's ruined that one and by then I think you got more free hours fore the first month and there were like... not even that many hours in a month
lol
dire igloo
dammed bots
not even bot, Discord automatic moderation settings
verbal raft
letterdief
if you want to see real shitposting (not the 2 massages we sent yesterday)
join the optiscaler server
nobody ever shit posts about intel there 😉
night girder
Thank you. Don't think that is for me.
verbal raft
Thank you. Don't think that is for me.
you must join the coppers
(double P isnt a typo)
verbal raft
❓
wanton orchid
BTW I just thought recently about vendor having to deal with consumers not knowing how to format an hdd when it's new
I've seen some review about one getting "hdd that does not start" 2 times in a row
then the third worked well and it was basically hand packaged
twin dew
Reason why (almost) all external drives and stick are preformatted.
wanton orchid
imaging buying a component part
and not wanting knowing to deal with a component
I could not like being an hardware seller for that reason
verbal raft
do you guys know what FG stands for ?
twin dew
Frame Generation?
Or in some other context?
dire igloo
I've seen some review about one getting "hdd that does not start" 2 times in a r...
queue "drive is smaller than advertised" reviews by people unaware of Gibibytes
charred relic
lol
that one has been around since people at home started buying them too
Some people even being convinced the companies are straight up scamming them heh
twin dew
But that is purely on the HDD makers, who started that to make the marketing number bigger.
Even HDDs were originally sold with power of 2 capacities marketed.
charred relic
Yeah but after awhile it becomes common knowledge... or should
Monintor manufacturers had the whole screen size thing back in the day as well
twin dew
Monintor manufacturers had the whole screen size thing back in the day as well
CRTs were marketed by the actual tube size, not the visible area.
charred relic
they really were fudging things a great deal there though, including parts of the screen not even visible and shit
verbal raft
Frame Generation?
Or in some other context?
replace the R in "Frame" with an L
😉
twin dew
Because they couldn't actually draw to the edges, the visible area was what was actually usable without major distortions at the edges.
verbal raft
replace the R in "Frame" with an L
😉
😉
charred relic
As I recall they passed some law or something about that one
languid gulch
languid gulch
remember when the rich families were the ones with 27 or even 32 inch TVs
charred relic
I remember when if your house got robbed the TV might be the only thing left
because those console TV's were a BITCH to move
languid gulch
🤣 oh yea
charred relic
drop one of those on yer toe you might lose a foot
languid gulch
this is the shot of what they were stealing in the first F&F movie
charred relic
YEah in the soproanos they had this one big score
home theaters with get this
DVD playahhhhs!
languid gulch
built into the tv! such luxury!
charred relic
back then i had one of those vcr/tv comboes in my work shop
twin dew
That isn't even DVD, that is VHS
languid gulch
oh god you're right
charred relic
yeah those are the ole screens with the tape
same type of design flaw as the Adam
well the adam was much worse but yeah, vcr gives out and it's just an oversized tv
tv gives out and it's just a... well you get it lol
Also if there are a bunch of CRTs on that truck that'd be ahuge score in 2025 lol
languid gulch
yea true 🤣
charred relic
new old stock CRT's, people would eat them up
languid gulch
might be like a fresh off the line Yugo tho
charred relic
there's a decent market for CRT
a lot of people will get ones that are broken and fix them, it's usually something fairly simple
Do you remember the TV shops... that used to be a thing
twin dew
Too bad that the actual long term problem is phosporus fade/damage from use.
charred relic
seems outlandish now, take your tv in for repair?!
Yeah but that's luck of the draw
you might fix a few that have crap tubes but if you hit a good one it's worth it
languid gulch
Do you remember the TV shops... that used to be a thing
one of my teachers and his dad are on the cover of a tv/radio repair & innovation magazine. found an original copy of it for his bday. had to ship it across the atlantic
1953 i think
charred relic
I'm more interested in tube based radio repair
or anything involving amplification of a signal
languid gulch
yea, his big innovation was carrying around a ton of diagnostic stuff in a panel truck and going to houses instead of having people haul their huge ass TVs to the shop
night girder
tube amplifiers? 😄
night girder
charred relic
They have kits to build those heh
languid gulch
if that giant solar flare ever hits vacuum tubes are gonna be really popular again
charred relic
Pricey but just the enclosure there is probably 200+
night girder
I hope to get orange combo.
languid gulch
my bass amp is big enough to sit on
charred relic
It is far more amp than it has any right to be for 250...
I allllmost got an Orange 35RT
languid gulch
mine's a cheapo yamaha from the 90s
night girder
Next step is a wall of amps 🤣
languid gulch
still a ground pounder
charred relic
But considering I can model that amp... and I do most of my stuff via modeling
night girder
Somewhere in the US, there is a music mall* that has a wall of marshalls I believe. I am so jealous.
charred relic
Wenn know which cabinet actually has a speaker in it at all at a rock show with stacks of amps
...the one with the microphone in front of it lol
Never loo kat the back side, illusion shattered forever
languid gulch
i'd love to get one of those wild electric violins
charred relic
the grateful dead "wall of sound"
night girder
ah, the grateful dead
charred relic
Great setup... just not practical as I'm sure you've already dedeced
night girder
don't want to be a stagehand
charred relic
lol
languid gulch
was a church stagehand for a few years, think my right knee still hate me for that
night girder
rewarding work though
charred relic
well there is a type of excitement to it
languid gulch
it's the stress of carrying a lot of expensive heavy stuff hoping you won't drop anything
charred relic
there is no rewind or re-takes, if something fucks up you gotta fix it in the now
languid gulch
and then it's all connected by a bunch of cheap ass cables
charred relic
and things WILL go wrong... frequently
night girder
that's how we learn
languid gulch
my personal favorite is when you think you've locked all the clamps down on a stand
charred relic
sometimes even if you're flawless shit goes sideways, like nobody knows when that guitar players tube screamer is going to give up magic smoke
can't predict that...
charred relic
typically pedals (unrained on) just don't really fail unless abused, but it happens
languid gulch
or the mic going electrically hot
charred relic
expression devices are a bit different, they have more parts that take wear
night girder
I don't know if you have a lot of rain. But here it rains a lot. And can go from 0 to 100 quickly.
Pedals were a bit too much too the front.
charred relic
That being said, that's why you have a complete backup rig
languid gulch
we don't have a lot of rain, but when you're planning on hosting anything outside, it's gonna target you
night girder
I don't know, someone fucked up that's for sure. But that's how they learn.
charred relic
condoms are a must have for rainy situations
night girder
Was quickly fixed, swapped out the pedal and they continued.
charred relic
a good tech will get something sorted quick... usually
night girder
a bad tech might make it worse 🤣
charred relic
true
languid gulch
a good tech you'll never notice
languid gulch
good cables and more guitar picks than you think you'll ever need
night girder
that's why you got fingers
languid gulch
and one of those guitar pick magazine thingies that hold like 20 of them
charred relic
i have one that holds about 8 on the back side
if you're ace fehley you need like 200 picks per show
languid gulch
🤣
charred relic
that man tosses more picks than anybody i've ever seen
languid gulch
i did discover nylon picks, they're amazing
charred relic
he's like a pick machinegun
oh the dunlop nylons are great
i still use the .88 tortex though
languid gulch
with the little grippies on em
charred relic
it's what i've always used
night girder
imagine, 50 fans and he throws away 200 picks 🤣
languid gulch
and the nylon ones last forever
charred relic
see for me... those are TOO grippy
languid gulch
yea i can see that
charred relic
the regular ones are already borderline too grippy for my taste
languid gulch
i use the gray ones
charred relic
aren't those thin?
charred relic
the blacks are like 1mm in tortex
night girder
Dunlop with grip 😊
languid gulch
yea, def thin, but a good balance of stiff & flexible
night girder
Grey is thin, good for electric rythm guitar.
charred relic
which is the blue tortex
night girder
black is better for picking.
languid gulch
anyone tried those compressed felt picks?
charred relic
i can't go must thinner than .8
night girder
Nah, I have so many picks.
charred relic
i can't get nuance with a floppy pick and it drives me bananas
night girder
I don't buy more 🤣 There was a point I kept losing em. So I kept buying. Then I found them back again. Now I swim in them
I find them mostly in pants, wallets, ... under the couch.
charred relic
Also if you're into pinch harmonics get some metal picks
languid gulch
i wanna try one of those insane balalaika picks
night girder
eh, I am good on instruments.
charred relic
I'm kinda picky with... picks
languid gulch
i bought a mandolin solely because it has the same tuning as a violin and it was shockingly easy to switch to
night girder
Maybe a Hofner chancellor, in a few years 🤣
languid gulch
and then i figured out that it fucking hurts after a bit 🤣
like overtight guitar strings
night girder
Oh, contrabas. That's one instrument I want to learn to play.
languid gulch
upright bass is fun
night girder
I would do it for the sound.
languid gulch
whole step is 1-4
charred relic
Picky about guitar strings too
night girder
ernie ball
languid gulch
i'm only picky about my violin strings, gotta have a gold E
charred relic
like i said just buy a mogami, especially if you have a guitar center around
it's like the old school craftsman tools of cables, you can walk in an exchange it
5 years later it dies, they replace it
night girder
Euh... not sure if we have those here.
charred relic
you can get them on amazon it's just more convenient having a walk in spot
or order directly from magmi
mogami cables + neutrik connectors = ❤️
night girder
I don't know what cables I have.
Someone is going to teach my how to solder.
So I can fix my own cables 👍
charred relic
That's what I do with older regular cables that fail
charred relic
i have larger solder than i use for most of my projects just for shit like that
night girder
yeah can't wait to get started
charred relic
I'm usually soldering components on a board, i use the thin stuff
twin dew
Making repairable cable today would both cost a lot more than non-repairable, and be way more likely to break, and also have worse connection quality.
night girder
Making repairable cable today would both cost a lot more than non-repairable, an...
yes
and then you repair them 🤣
They are still being sold a lot.
charred relic
Another thing you can do is when you do need to repair a cable replace the tip with a neutrik
that'll help a lot, combined with a good solder job it'll likely last indefinitely
night girder
Mhh, I keep that in mind. Thank you 👍
twin dew
and then you repair them 🤣
And when it might for example be likely that you would need to repair one 10 times before the non-repairable one breaks the first time?
night girder
And when it might for example be likely that you would need to repair one 10 tim...
Cables break constantly. Repairable ones. Non repairable.
They move around, they travel. It's just hard life being a guitar cable.
charred relic
they def tend to get a lot more use than most cables
esepcially if they're being used for gigging
night girder
I don't know the prices, but I think a "repairable" (one that screws lose) one is like 50% - 100% extra in price over non repairable?
even the non repairable ones you can repair in theory. Just more work and not convenient.
I can look up some prices if you want Baldur to be sure.
charred relic
For a lot of people they just won't bother fixing them. My neighbor for example would throw it out.
twin dew
Would think that only real problem that can be repaired, that happens on both, is that you break the cable next to the connector.
Most others will make either the cable much shorter, or only happen on non-crimped and molded connectors.
Which is always bad handling related.
charred relic
It's almost always inside the connector
night girder
For a lot of people they just won't bother fixing them. My neighbor for example...
That gets expensive 😅 Atleast for me.
charred relic
Well for me it's like... not really much effort to repair one personally
night girder
Which is always bad handling related.
It's a guitar Baldur
twin dew
It's almost always inside the connector
And that shouldn't be possible with crimped and molded connectors.
Only with ones that are disassemblable.
charred relic
hahaha
night girder
Some guitar players move around.
charred relic
if you think that, you'd be thinking incorrect
thus far nobody has engineered around this one
twin dew
Or with XLR, and then you get actual pin/socket damage?
verbal raft
🤔
night girder
I am wireless to my guitar anyhows
Yeah, wireless is a solution.
charred relic
Also that's what the condoms are for, perfect for sealing up the wireless shit
And it's very inexpensive now
I got some Lekato's that work great
night girder
So thats what the condoms are for huh?
charred relic
just so happens the non lubed is perfect for it... 😄
But along with just nopt being the safest thing in general, the cables breaking thing
is why it drives me nuts when a player doesn't loop their cord at the guitar
like right there gonna save you a bunch of money...
night girder
is why it drives me nuts when a player doesn't loop their cord at the guitar
Ah yeah, I know what you mean.
rolling up a cable is also not easy for everyone 🙂
The proper way, with no torque tension.
night girder
unless you can screw out the metal part, which is sometimes the case?
charred relic
Because I'd bet money it is
night girder
but if you just cut the wire and reattach jack yourself
charred relic
that wrap comes off and i bet that plug opens up no problemo
night girder
but you cannot do it without damaging cable.
charred relic
maybe not but... i'd also never buy that cable
night girder
maybe not but... i'd also never buy that cable
me neither.
charred relic
Well all that stuff prolongs, but none of it will save the cable in the long run
night girder
Well all that stuff prolongs, but none of it will save the cable in the long run
Well, wireless also can go wrong if you forget the batteries or they don't have enough charge.
Wanting to say; a lot is prone to fail (eventually)
twin dew
Seems to be molded, but but bad selection on materials between the connector body and the cable insulation, so no real stress relief there either.
And no kink protection at that interface either.
charred relic
You wouldn't relaly use what I have for playing shows. Well you could, somebody tried it. But they had like 6 different sets in case they were on a freq quen interference or something
twin dew
So will die to kinking at that interface, or pull force causing the cable insulation to separate from the molded connector body and then the wires breaking next to the crimps.
night girder
$129
twin dew
Or soldering.
twin dew
$129
*HYRGH*
So basically no-one is selling properly done cables?
And everyone just accepts that?
Visuals over actual quality.
night girder
There are probably good cables out there.
charred relic
You think nobody has tried?
night girder
Just giving you an example in price difference.
charred relic
they have been at it for decades lol
Like I said Mogami is one of the best about about as reliable as it gets for a guitar cable.
Never used anything else from them
night girder
sorted on popularity
charred relic
Also, braided cables are popular for a reason and it's not looks for most folks
good braiding doesn't tend to kink, for one.
I like my women kinky, not my guitar cable. In fact it's super annoying if you get one that's super twisty
night girder
Oh, you also have curled ones 😄
charred relic
Those are great in smaller enviornments like practicing
lets you move away but still not have a billion feet of cable laying around
twin dew
Probably too small productions.
Crimped connections, not soldered and absolutely not screwed or like.
Proper stress relief so that any pull on the cable is transferred direct from the insulation to the connector body.
Not through the inner wires.
And kink protection from that connector body over the first several centimeters with metal spring thing or like, to control maximum bend that can happen near the connector body-cable exit interface.
charred relic
solderless guitar cables are... well they suck
twin dew
Crimp is better than solder.
But absolutely not repairable as you need new contacts each time and special tools.
Reason why all later coax connectors are only available as crimps, never with solderable options anymore.
charred relic
It's not... not for this
I'm telling you... and I've had some experience with them
twin dew
It's not... not for this
Yes, not good when the other steps are not done right either.
charred relic
so no company does it right
twin dew
That soldering then allows for that repair, when the other steps fail.
charred relic
but you have figured it out... i'd be subitting a resume
you'll be a multionmillionair in short order...
twin dew
so no company does it right
Basically, in any cables.
As it is too expensive to do properly for all steps.
So consumer cables skip that stress relief and kink protection.
night girder
Basically, in any cables.
As it is too expensive to do properly for all steps.
S...
Yeah, it's what we are stuck with.
but atleast we can repair them 🤷♂️
charred relic
The pricey cables from well trusted brands tend to just not fail
night girder
I mean, for musicians, there is not much we can do about it. Besides wireless maybe.
or making our own modified cables.
charred relic
Well let me rephrase that, they tend to not faily very quickly compared to a "standard" cable
night girder
But not every musician can solder or knows how to modify cables.
Also it depends on what you do. If bands tour a lot, stuff happens to cables.
charred relic
my neighbor gigs, he'll give me cables to solder
night girder
How does wireless work for guitar?
charred relic
But i use wireless to the guitar which is where most of the stress is, all my other stuff doesn't move
night girder
How is the latency? And any interference? I guess there is none. But do you know how?
charred relic
or rarely...
I can only speak to what I own really but I notice no difference between wired and wireless personally
me neighbor didn't note anything that seemded off either when he tried them on his setup
I think the biggest problem is you are limited in bypassing interference versus the "real" wireless rigs
twin dew
is why it drives me nuts when a player doesn't loop their cord at the guitar
Basically trick to minimize the issues with that stress relief and kink protection missing when a snag happens.
charred relic
Well if you go watch some guitarists that play corded, almost all of them have their own releief protection on that end
by looping the cable over the strap typically
night girder
I was just watching this video
charred relic
like inside and over where the peg is, then the stress hits where it won't kill the cable. The other end is... well
night girder
it's a live gig
charred relic
Yep, if I don't see that it makes my bhole pucker lol
once you start doing that it's second nature
i don't even think about it
twin dew
And yes, with that kind of 90 degree connector, you will break shit if you get pull on the cord up to the connector.
night girder
Yeah, I do it. If I have a guitar strap 😄
straight connector on that guitar is even worse.
languid gulch
on my first electric guitar i managed to shear off the whammy bar
charred relic
nah it's actually smart there
he has it looped so it's fine... the regular end would stick out inches lol
i can see that being annoying for some players
night girder
a straight one?
twin dew
Yeah, but would have expected the connector to come out from the direction the cable goes.
Not out that direction.
charred relic
yeah a straight plug
night girder
hell no.
twin dew
On the instrument itself.
charred relic
people do it...
charred relic
if he snags hard enough to break that end
twin dew
So on snag the connector would come out.
charred relic
he deserves it heh
night girder
most use straight when input is on the side of the guitar body.
charred relic
I use a 90 lol
twin dew
That the connector would be on the short edge, going straight into the body:
So on snag the cable side connector would most probably be pulled out.
charred relic
There have been guitar players retrogit the strat style plugs into guitars
or swap from front to side etc
night girder
Here I would use straight.
night girder
That the connector would be on the short edge, going straight into the body:
If the jack of the cable was straight?
charred relic
That's about where my jackson plug is
twin dew
It would look like this.
No, 90 degrees rotated.
night girder
Ah ok. We are talking different things 😄
twin dew
That the plug on the body is on the short edge.
twin dew
No, meant completely relocated plug on the body, with straight cable.
twin dew
something like this:
Yup, just that.
charred relic
You know my neighbor gave me a used buy perfectly functional Dimebucker about 2 years ago that I never installed...
Oh and a fender hotrail...
night girder
btw, is your wireless connected by cable? The sender unit?
charred relic
it's just like any other cable, one dongle goes in guitar
other in amp... or interface
night girder
Sometimes, I've seen the sender on the back of the player.
With a cable going to the guitar.
charred relic
this is all just baked into one dongle
night girder
Cool 👍
charred relic
yeah the traditional ones have a little box and the guitar is actually wired to that
usually hooked on the strap
Lekato WS-70 is the setup i have
night girder
My new guitar
charred relic
night girder
Fender American Vintage 62 Telecaster.
charred relic
Hows that for jack placement 😄
charred relic
you don't want to know what that cost...
night girder
I hope to find a hofner jazz guitar
night girder
you don't want to know what that cost...
I am more for the sound and how it plays
charred relic
Oh it sounds great...
night girder
Ok, that one I would buy for the looks 🤣
And it's a hofner. Which is reputable brand.
charred relic
hollow and semi hollow just has a different sound
night girder
Yeah
languid gulch
also bonks you on the knee way differently too
charred relic
that es-335 has been painted but whoever did it knocked it out of the park
it's probably better than the finish it came with honestly
And they went back with the original color when they had it pained
I waied a full day to open that case, the last thing i wanted to do was open it up and boom finish checking starts
night girder
I just straight started to play 😄
twin dew
But basically no current (consumer) cable has the two features this kind of thing is used to add to through hole connections:
Stress relief by the thing clamping the cable insulation securely to the body with clamping force.
And that tail to prevent sharp kinks near that stress relief/connector body.
charred relic
well it was shipped so... temp changes
twin dew
You sometimes have features that try to look like that kind of kink prevention thing, but aren't.
twin dew
Like those smaller long tails in this.
And with molded body connectors, you would just need one extra feature added around the actual cable before adding the outer molding to do stress relief.
twin dew
So that the cable cannot pull free of the molding, as there would be wider bit clamped onto the cable, inside the molding.
And some cables or connectors have something that looks like that, but is of too hard plastic, causing the kink to happen at the end of the "kink protection" instead, or it breaking off completely.
Or just that feature being basic part of the cable insulation.
But that would necessiate making the cables in pre-cut lengths, instead of just as roll that gets cut in later steps.
For example this cheap cable tries to look like it has kink protection.
When in actuality it just moved the kink damage point.
charred relic
One part of the manufacturing with many cables I've seen is to actually use the protection that's in there already. I'ave opened a bunch up and the crimping mechanism was anywhere from looking untouched to clearly being done by somebody that didn't give a shit
like it'll be halfway crimped and not at all holding the wires still
twin dew
You mean screwable pull strain relief?
charred relic
No inside most connectors there is a crump that you squeeze around the cable
twin dew
Yes, screwable pull strain relief.
Not crimp.
charred relic
if you do it right nothing past that is really gonna move without abuse levelf of stuff
twin dew
And that is supposed to be on the main outer insulation, not stripped to wires part.
charred relic
If you do it half assed it's like not using it at all which is going to lead to a cable that lasts... months not years
Some of what you pay for with good cables is those little things... like if i get a mogami it's consstructed properly
if i get some amazon recommended great deal, who knows
twin dew
Can be just from screwing the shell on, clamping around the cable.
Or can be separate screws.
Crimping is alternative to soldering or like for the actual wire to connector/contact connections:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimp_(joining)
charred relic
Well you'd think it's a simple concept but some companies clearly don't get it
As far as the electrical connections meh I dunno.
Like the solderless stuff is fine, and if yuo don't know how or don't want to learn how to solder thhey're... fine
i mean like the ones that are solderless and repairable, yes it exists heh
I'll stick with solder joints for the electrical connections personally
I have a cable here that predates 10 digit dialing and I've repaired one end once, still works fine heh
twin dew
Basic thing about those crimped connections is that they are airtight, and stronger than the actual wires, when done right.
twin dew
But of course then if the strain relief isn't correct, you just break the wires next to the crimp.
And they aren't repairable without changing the contact and recrimping the new one.
charred relic
But so far with soldered ends and some very old cables I've had no issues personally
But I do know it can be a problem
twin dew
And most proper crimping tools cost in range of 250-2000e for single contact type.
charred relic
basic soldering iron, 15 bucks 😄
twin dew
But so far with soldered ends and some very old cables I've had no issues person...
Yeah, solder is fine in most cases.
Just suffers from creep, vibrations etc. and cannot be done well enough for GHz range signals in coax cables easily.
But more expensive on large scale cable manufacturing line than crimping, if crimping is possible.
charred relic
Says the guy that just spend way more than that
twin dew
No, just as reason why crimps have replaced solder etc. in most "real world" uses outside hobby space.
charred relic
With this use case the shielding is more important really
guitar signals are quite weak, and shit cables can pick all kinds of noise up
twin dew
Which is the whole space where actual coax cables and connectors live.
Just that for some reason music space never used those.
charred relic
You'll already be fighting the pickups themselves with some shit
Reading tabs from a CRT using a non bucking pickup was a nightmare lol
twin dew
Just using the same type cable, without proper connectors, staying on same old type 6.3mm sockets and jakcs used since pre 1900.
Basically good quality unbalanced mono audio cables use coax, just without impedance matching.
Shield/ground over signal wire.
charred relic
had to look it up i couldn't remember offhand by a half volt AC would be a HOT pickup
might even need active pickups to h it that
twin dew
You don't want to know how low GPS antenna signal on the receiver side is, from the antenna to the receiver.
Or some other antenna coax uses on receiver side.
Professional video stuff uses coax with proper coax type connectors in various variants for SDI etc.
charred relic
radio waves are the enemy of most things i build
twin dew
Yeah, but the same thing is true of the radio signals in cables between antenna and the actual receiver.
charred relic
Some pedal designs depending on which component you don't want any extra lead wire, get it as tight as possible
because that little extra leg will magically become the worlds best antenna for whatever frequency range heh
Listen to some golden oldies AM radio every time you kick the boost pedal in
...wonder if i could manage to market that as a great feature
twin dew
BNC connector pairs cut in half:
Cable with outer insulation, shield weave(s), inner insulation, inner conductor.
Where the inner conductor is crimped into contact that is inserted into the connector body, and the outer shield is crimped onto the connector stem, with pull stress relief in the same crimp to the outer insulation.
With strict impedance matching in all parts.
Because there cannot be any real holes in the shielding, at any point of the chain, or nothing works.
TwinAx is same with two inner conductors.
BNCs are still available as soldered versions instead too, smaller later higher frequency compatible ones aren't.
charred relic
It def makes more sense for that application
twin dew
That original size left side is solderable variant.
Center pin is soldered and then the outer shield is set over that screw thread and the back is screwed on.
charred relic
and im sure a whole bunch of others if i were to think about it
twin dew
Yeah, but point was that music side on unbalanced cables is still living 100 years in past for most part.
Using good quality new cables, but otherwise not having really progressed except with marketing and visuals.
Meaning the actual cable cable, with non-impedance matched coax.
night girder
sorry, zoned out of the conversation. Looking up documentation for opensense
seems like ok software. router, firewall.
but I think it needs to run on freebsd
charred relic
Changing that standard would be a tough one
Both selling it to people and the actual process of shit moving over. Some people will have a dozen or more of those connector sjust on their pedalboard
twin dew
In way it always is, but just changing a connector allows just to have cables that have one connector on one end and another on the other.
And change as you change devices after long while.
twin dew
Like I said, would take forever, but could be done.
charred relic
Yeah most players don't swap out gear that often. Like if somebody got a tube screamer 20 y ears ago they're probably still using it
No reason to change... hell depend in what year model you buy it might be worse
twin dew
But without even trying, everyone will still be stuck on 6.3mm mono plugs 100 years from now.
night girder
Baldur isn't.