off-topic-tech

[dire igloo]

Those always say stuff like "idk", "not my field" or "I'm still working on that"

The point of research papers is to go from theory to conclusion with no gaps in the proof - it's just that they are often too complicated for laymen to understand

[soft bloom]

if GPT doesn't know it, it's probably fair to assumoe no, given that if there was one - media fuss would be all over it. or at least it would hallucinate. though, not 90%

[wanton orchid]

reality is not meant to be simple
it never was
thank you for telling them that science is not about claims
and if anything if it is a bit about claim it does not make it science but simply academic bias and problems

(thank you Fireworker)

[soft bloom]

you are defending as if i was picking at research papers, but here I was talking about science communication, which is often done poorly.
I am talking about what I hear on YT, for example, from sciShow, Veritasium, on web articles (news, simplified sumamries of actual papers).
||I wasn't saying it's all there is, just that it is there, and happens fairly often.
maybe just because that's the state of some fields - used to throwing mindbending theories as facts (aka in astrophysics)||

Here's example of the misleading rethoric given by chatgpt:
(the process is star turning into black hole)
it seemingly replaces requested observational evidence with believed

[wanton orchid]

it's not science communications it's literally folk communication about science

[soft bloom]

it's like asking
do you believe your tax money go to government?
and getting answer
yes, we pay a lot, it's important for us to support government

[wanton orchid]

you are chasing the problem backward
these people are not often actual scientific at all

[soft bloom]

not often, but don't you agree they are the bulk of it?

[wanton orchid]

the idea society is built on science people is completely hollow
actual scientist are currently being bullied by politicians

[soft bloom]

there's bright example - Sabine, I never caught her doing something liek that

[wanton orchid]

"uuh they fooled us science does not work, prey our gods uuh"
Google ai Gmail is not science man
it's Spyware for Money with paternrship of Politics

half foil hat claims are half true
mostly targeted to the wrong person and or aspect of things
that's also why they grab so much people so easily

[verbal raft]

ive forgotten about this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw39wYJlLRc&t=116s

[wanton orchid]

where it fails miserably is current world state is not about few evil people
but about billions of too dumb people to believe them

[wanton orchid]

Also note some of the people you may put in the pack of "online science communications" actually are scientific
and these people shine more thoroughly than others
but it does not make every other person you tag scientific communication

[soft bloom]

how did foil hats enter chat?

[wanton orchid]

tldr actual scientific communication must improve
but please don't confuse that with random YouTube video talking about anything technical

science is much more serious than that

if you want to do actual science
then be extremely picky about your sources
even if lot of videos are "cool" they are nowhere near able to provide inspiration about facts

and that's mostly why I hate online current networks

[dire igloo]

and if you actually read it carefully, you'd know that it is comparing the GENERAL process of "too much mass makes black hole" to the astrophysical process - which to me means that it's excluding astrophysical observations

[wanton orchid]

it's so freaking fake on every level

[dire igloo]

you're once again showcasing your inability to understand science communication

also, when I referenced you to one of the best science communicators I know (also one of the strongest advocates for good science communication) relating to a specific topic that you talked about, you told me that you wouldn't finish watching the video

[dire igloo]

and this is just you using shitty research tools.
you're using a fuckin LLM and then get nitpicky about the results because when analyzed VERBATIM (which is another example of incompetence) they make no sense

have you ever thought about the fact that the whole idea of ChatGPT is to APPEAR knowledgeable, not to actually BE knowledgeable?

[wanton orchid]

let's take an easy example
"a car can go at 300km/h"
video about it
showing archive video of cars going 300km/h and saying "it's been done !" : cool
actually realizing the things imply an gigantic amount of preparation conditions and or risks
which almost no one is doing in their normal life
"it can go at 300km/h" is not the reality
it's simply the conclusion validated data
the reality is all the things in which it is provided to actually go that speed without killing one

[soft bloom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1998bw
first reference
they do use believe, jsut saying. and it is in papers as well, not cherry picking

[wanton orchid]

the science is about the later part

[dire igloo]

reacts with ☝️ but actually perpetuated some of the most bogus pseudoscience bs out there from sources that are just SUPER unreliable - all because they "challenge the paradigm"

[dire igloo]

then why do they say "believe"?
simple: they weren't there to witness it

[soft bloom]

hehe, I watched couple of his videos, including the most important one about pipeline.
but that one about debunking expanding earth - dude was just talking nothing for the first 5-10 minutes without advancing in either presenting the theory in focus nor the facts. aka just doing content for the sake of content. he does that a lot in shorts. when disrespect enters - science exists.

[dire igloo]

if 500 years ago there was a star there but now there's a black hole at the same position, do we KNOW that this star became a black hole?

[wanton orchid]

which is not what the paper will build on
but simply an introduction of what's being talked about

[soft bloom]

nah, chatgpt is the perfect tool to study what average content on the internet looks like.

[dire igloo]

you do realize that a lot of the talking he does is to provide context, right?
yes, he was very dismissive of the theory - but that's like talking to a mathematician trying to prove that 2+2=5

[dire igloo]

1. it's not
2. that's bullshit
3. if that's what you do, stop talking about science

if THAT is the point you're getting at, keep science out of your mouth

you're complaining about the trend of anti-intellectualism and society's decline towards pseudoscience

you're no longer analyzing science communication, you're doing social studies

[soft bloom]

did i link a video about how to count here? you should watch it 🙂

[wanton orchid]

what content "looks like" yes
i.e chasing look of content
when the content is supposed to be the thing you must even filter to gather anything about actual things

[dire igloo]

listen, if you want to nitpick every piece of rhetoric, have fun - but fuck off with that bullshit to a different channel and leave the tech talk channel for tech stuff

[soft bloom]

https://youtu.be/QO9a7h87DbA?si=g6-O4lIgyBYPwHg0

[wanton orchid]

if you want to be friend with chatgpt and YouTube then ok
but that's not AT ALL what science is about
(and yes the same fucking bullshit can be done by becoming friend with a book store, except the later already requires more personal investment)

[soft bloom]

just for the clarity of things:
this is the message after which we started talking about science communication.
the message itself was about how you replied.

I am fine not discussing how science works sometimes

[wanton orchid]

except Youtube talking about science is NOT
science popularization
it's spreading of science(or not actually) RELATED TALK

[dire igloo]

if you didn't understand what I mean, I'll elaborate for you:
this guy studied environmental science. this guy is well-educated about how nature on this planet behaved and what shaped our planet to be what it is. that's his exact field of expertise.
he is then presented with one of the most poorly proven pieces of pseudoscience out there which just so happens to fall into his field of expertise.
he KNOWS what is correct because he has studied that shit.

in a more easily understandable fashion, do you know about the visual "proof" that pi=4? imagine showing that to a mathematician, he'd react about the same way that milo did in the video I sent you.
and if you don't know: you put a circle or radius 1 inside a square of sidelength 1. you then remove corners of the square to approximate the circle - circle's circumference is pi, square's circumference is 4.
these don't change over the course, but the square more and more closely approximates the circle - so in the limit, you get them to match perfectly which means that you have a circle shape (circumference pi) that has a circumference of 4.
Ergo: pi = 4

[dire igloo]

it IS science communication. you're communicating scientific results and scientific experiments to a broader audience in a simplified manner.
it ISN'T science, but it's not meant to be

watch Milo's recent talk at UMaine if you want to go deeper into that field

This one:
https://youtu.be/mZzqQvx_2Aw

[wanton orchid]

it's not scientific communication

"300km/h" is not the science

[wanton orchid]

^

[dire igloo]

no, because scientific communication is communicating scientifically.
science communication is presenting scientific results, methods, research to a broad audience in an understandable manner

this is another semantics discussion because what you understand as scientific communication is not what science communication means

you can be a science communicator without having a degree, simply because science communication isn't about scientific work

[soft bloom]

he could win Nobel prise but I still won't watch his video where he just shows disrespect for the sake of content instead of spitting facts. Because i am not intersted in that. He may release a condensed 2 minutes vieo, I am sure he would fit in that, and then it's fine by me.

[dire igloo]

it's about presenting that work to a broad audience

[wanton orchid]

you are mixing it outward in a way
you have to do the communication scientifically
you can do baby step while staying scientific
anything going out is inviting people that only have that "science communications" to actually do the bias and not science at all

you think you are helping

you are the first one to disrespect science by doing so

you can talk scientifically to everyone on simple things

learn to do so

[dire igloo]

he's showing disrespect for a theory because that theory is bullshit from head to toe - also, as you might've noticed from his video, it's more of a reaction and less of a scientific presentation.
He still analyses the claims made in the video, presents contradictory observations and questions the claims.

[wanton orchid]

any thing online talking about science
is NOT science communication

face your expression paradoxes

you have to convey the actual thing at some point or you are fooling yourself

[dire igloo]

what you CAN criticize is him using only that one video as "evidence" for expanding earth theory - but frankly, it is a shitty video and I doubt anyone else can answer Milo's questions better

[soft bloom]

instead of picking at each other we could just do research when there are questions.

obviously chatgpt isn't The source of facts, that's a first aproximation at best, even less accurate than YT videos that could inspire questions.
But it gave me couple examples, and I linked one of them here. Aka it works as a tool, just be aware of its limitations.

[dire igloo]

what the fuck does science communication mean then if it is NOT presenting scientific work to a broad audience?

[dire igloo]

also, this is exactly why people think that science is an ivory tower, turning them away from actual science towards pseudoscience

you should REALLY watch the video I linked above

gatekeeping is bullshit

gatekeeping achieves the exact opposite - instead of keeping a community orderly, it separates it from the general public and makes it inaccessible

science should be more accessible than anything else

[soft bloom]

what do you define as science communication then?
I mean, any media, such as internet, shouldn't limit it, right? or was the enfasis on 'talking'?

[dire igloo]

I think he's using a definition that just doesn't represent science communication

[wanton orchid]

again backward
I'm not saying science communications does not present scientific work to broad audience
I'm saying
that "presenting scientific talk and results to a broad audience" is not in itself science communication
it must also convey the methodology and itself be a scientific communication for it to be science communication

If you think you can provide info and people will just take it the right way without experience
especially without scientific research experience
you are fooling yourself and others 500%

[dire igloo]

Science communication encompasses a wide range of activities that connect science and society. Common goals of science communication include informing non-experts about scientific findings, raising the public awareness of and interest in science, influencing people's attitudes and behaviors, informing public policy, and engaging with diverse communities to address societal problems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_communication

[soft bloom]

do you have other people/groups' work to support your view of what is science communication?

(not asking same from Sharklien because I don't yet udnerstsand his view)

[dire igloo]

so you are using the definition of the word to differentiate between doing it well or poorly

saying that if done poorly, it's not being done at all

which I can somewhat understand, but it just makes you sound gatekeep-y

[dire igloo]

see above, science communication is about making science accessible to the commonfolk

[wanton orchid]

are you fucking not aware it currently is failing ?
and need to be broadly improved
or even revised completely in some way
the current and past "science communications" as been naivety of all things
it's backward
a teacher claiming respect is good then asking students to suck their balls is not actually teaching them any respect

[wanton orchid]

I'm not
you are claiming it can't be missed

[soft bloom]

but people will take your info without experience, and that can be fooling 🙃
||There's plenty examples in politics... and worst happens when it combined with 'science' claims... but I wont open this can of worms||

[wanton orchid]

which it is online on absolutely most of "science" content outthere not actually handled by any scientific person most of the time

[wanton orchid]

exactly

[dire igloo]

I know that it is failing, evidenced by the growing popularity of pseudoscience. That's why we need MORE science communication, not nitpicking about which communicators actually work scientifically.
if they present science in any understandable non-misinformative manner, they're doing science communication. if they fail to proactively provide sources, that sucks, but if there are sources, they can be provided

and about respect: the worst example are the people that demand respect while saying of themselves that their respect has to be earned

[wanton orchid]

just because you are reading your paper out loud to random people is not making you doing "science communications"
nor does making flashy 3d animation without internal consistency with the Audience own experience

[wanton orchid]

put science in Google search bar and be arrogant enough to claim to me there is no plenty resukt

it's not a quantity work

but a quality work

cut short the bullshit
well have to get our arms out of our butts

[dire igloo]

and I said earlier, it doesn't need to. you don't need to be a scientist to do science communication - tho if you broaden the definition of scientist to mean anyone who has an understanding of the scientific method, then yeah you should be a scientist to do good science communication

but it absolutely isn't an inherent requirement

[wanton orchid]

YOUR FUCKING CLAIM MATE

[dire igloo]

sure, you won't be able to provide deeper explanations, but that's not expected from science communication

[wanton orchid]

get down there in the fucking street

that's not how it ever worked

[dire igloo]

and that's a big ass issue

ivory tower, remember?

a German content creator (Rezo) who graduated in computer science received one of the highest journalistic honors of this country (Nannen-Preis) for political journalism

[verbal raft]

🤔

[wanton orchid]

the actual science communications is also providing enough material for the audience to actually have scientific approach on the few things communicated AT ALL TIME
and yes that imply one does not fit all
and ANY none scientifically reviewed RELAY will loose that information

[dire igloo]

science communication should not be tied to X amount of experience or a degree or scientific publications or anything
sure, it makes you much more credible, but it isn't a necessity at all

[dire igloo]

says who?
says you.

[wanton orchid]

I can explain it

I have multiple proof about it

[dire igloo]

show me where anyone made it a requirement

[wanton orchid]

I already gave few practical examples btw

[soft bloom]

sometimes it lacks basic proofreading.
there's a large chunk of individual bloggers who just use 'scientific' news for confirmation bias.
it's imply seductive to link something with 'science' in the title and use that as a proof...
really, many modern problems are simply caused by human psychology

[wanton orchid]

show me where anyone that not failed did not do so

[dire igloo]

you did? all I've seen was vague gesturing about science communicators on youtube

[wanton orchid]

ngl this sounds like you are simply not informed enough on the topic
because I've seen a few people working in communication expressing that need to provide material for audience to itself construct its own understanding

you yourself talked about how they "gave information about context" for your YouTube videos of choice

[dire igloo]

milo rossi talking about archeology - he's not an archeologist, he's an environmental scientist
Rezo doing political science as a compsci grad
Ex&F doing chemistry on YT - technically, he's pursuing a PhD in physics
Mai-Thi Nguyen Kim talking about basically everything as a chemist and receiving high honors (Bundesverdienstkreuz)

also: just because everyone who failed was not a scientist, doesn't mean that you need to be a scientist to be successful.
I've also seen scientists fail to be good communicators (Prof. Dr. Cornelia Denz in a presentation on lasers and optical tweezers)

[soft bloom]

imagine world were tech communication would be held up to the same standard as SharklienX wants for science communication? companies would be mad for some time, sure

[dire igloo]

that's just what good science communication means, it doesn't mean that you have to be a scientist

I'm arguing a different angle here

[wanton orchid]

you are scientist if you are able to pull all this care for actual things and their actual meanings

[dire igloo]

then that's just a super broad understanding of scientist

[wanton orchid]

communication is a practical tool
not a magic "social" thing to be naive about

[dire igloo]

one that doesn't align with what many people think - for most people, scientist and scientific researcher are synonyms

[wanton orchid]

it's not
it's even stricter than yours apparently

[soft bloom]

but isn't that basically mathcing what you set for those doing science communication?

[dire igloo]

meaning that you have to be actively working in a given field to count as a scientist

[dire igloo]

what MY understanding is doesn't matter - I'm arguing about the common understanding

A scientist is a person who researches to advance knowledge in an area of the natural sciences.[
and wikipedia agrees with me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientist

[soft bloom]

I think the word that better matches what you both talk about is journalist
as in someone who investigates topic, without necesserily needing to theorise or experiment in it

[wanton orchid]

and the common understand have roots
you can do an average of all the inconsistent and opposite way people use a word
you have the extract the only way it mostly make sense and is consistent ACCROSS these common use

[dire igloo]

you have to do actual research that advances knowledge to count as a scientist.
a science communicator can be a good science communicator without researching anything - and they also don't need to advance humanity's knowledge nor do they need to intend to

with this definition of scientist, you do NOT need to be a scientist to be a good science communicator

and importantly: you don't need to be good at it to count as a science communicator

[wanton orchid]

again
maybe you didn't know but :
communication is not that easy
people often have partial reasoning about what they are talking about
they choose words that are most practical but not most accurate at any moment
if you take it too literally it does not make sense anymore
the semantic exists in the way the word is actually used
not in the way you simplify whatever idea you think people was formulating

[soft bloom]

Is person who made the javascript library for true and false values - a scientist?
is GamersNexus a scientist? (referring to how he tests chips)
There's plenty of people with degree who just translate (not even talking about outright plagiating) papers - are they scientists?

[dire igloo]

the point of science communication is outreach, not accuracy

if they want accuracy, they can proactively pursue that

[wanton orchid]

and I literally demonstrated here it's a contradiction

[dire igloo]

where did you demonstrate it?
the 300kph example didn't make sense to me

[wanton orchid]

outreach above accuracy is NOT CONVEYING the science

it's not science your communicating then

[wanton orchid]

no
the explanations about what communication have as requirement to ever make sense

any communication actually

[dire igloo]

GN does research (part testing) to advance knowledge (what parts are good).
JS library idk
translation is communication, not research

[wanton orchid]

but a flashy mind shortcut idea looking like it

like chatgpt is doing

[soft bloom]

btw... there's an intersting idea to work with - take any topic from school program, perhaps even astrophysics, and try to explain it to hypothetical medieval people. What analogies are you going to use? How will it hold up when that person retolds what they have learned? It's also practical today, since that's clsoe to how information gets twisted in jargonised communities or simply smalltalk with peopel who are not interested in science.

[wanton orchid]

science is not only about research

[dire igloo]

I'm not saying to be intentionally misinformative.
but if simplifying a scientific topic helps you make it more understandable, then you should - and then specify later on.
as long as you do a good job of reducing misinformation and misrepresentation, you can absolutely sacrifice accuracy for understandability

examples: neglecting air resistance and friction when discussing newton's law of motion

[soft bloom]

there's a considerable chunk of papers that are simply translation. I mean academic papers.

[dire igloo]

that's an unrealistic simplification, but a necessary one to make the topic understandable

[wanton orchid]

where did I talk about intentions ?

naivety again

[wanton orchid]

^

[dire igloo]

which is a good thing, but if translation is all you do, you're a scientific translator

[dire igloo]

what else did you mean when you required to prioritize accuracy over outreach?

[soft bloom]

But how do you educate someone then? at some point, you will take shortcut. you said that yourself...
unless you mean deliberate bending

[wanton orchid]

there are way to simplify things that does not hinder further understand from audience

[dire igloo]

or limiting the theory of relativity to special relativity, not general relativity

[soft bloom]

people graduate with that shit

[dire igloo]

or neglecting relativistic effects in Newtonian mechanics

[dire igloo]

doesn't mean it's inaccurate

[wanton orchid]

I said it
the key is providing material so the person can rebuild its understanding from its own experience

[dire igloo]

just means that it doesn't fit the definition of scientist

[wanton orchid]

anything you take as it is "said" by your peer without looking to relate
is completely void
because you can only interpret it from your own pov

[soft bloom]

it means they are not advancing, at least.
if all you do is run google transalte and check for grammar mistakes, you are not even guaranteed to keep it accurate. to produce paper on Y, you need not only X and Y but also a bit of Z.

[dire igloo]

and that's why science communication is failing. you put the duty into the general public - they need to pursue the information.
good science communication is proactive, you don't expect people to find their way towards you

[dire igloo]

all talked about my Milo Rossi btw

[wanton orchid]

all I'm explaining is literally the ground of what is a good and bad scientific paper
get your things right please

[dire igloo]

if you make science something that you have to actively go after, you make it less accessible

[wanton orchid]

sounds like you are part of those confusing scientific with academic

[dire igloo]

I'm not talking about papers tho, I don't care about papers

I'm talking about communication

[soft bloom]

like tutorial in games?

[dire igloo]

how you get science out to the people

[wanton orchid]

you claimed my definition of "scientific" and or "science" does not match
while I can't better match because what I'm explaining is already an official REQUIREMENT for any paper to be deemed scientific at all

[dire igloo]

what difference is there?
if science is perceived as an ivory tower, it might as well be one. doesn't matter if it actually is one or not, if people see it as inaccessible, it to them IS inaccessible

[dire igloo]

where did I do that?
I explicitly mentioned "science COMMUNICATION" and "scientific COMMUNICATION"

we have the wikipedia definitions for that

[wanton orchid]

don't you know about misinformation ?
how it hurts ?
you're here claiming it can't hurt basically

[dire igloo]

and if you use the words with a different meaning, then it's very obvious why you're failing to make your point

[wanton orchid]

misinformation does not have to be intentional

[dire igloo]

how the fuck is that my point?

like, seriously

how can you misunderstand me that badly?

[wanton orchid]

oh so now you are looping over
not actually responding to what I said
get back to the point I explain that no science is communicated in butchering what make the information scientific in the first place

[dire igloo]

yet again, I'm not talking about papers. Science communication goes FAR FAR beyond scientific papers

[wanton orchid]

all the next messages was about explaining that

and now you forgot where it comes from

[dire igloo]

Bill Nye the science guy

Sendung mit der Maus

Mai Think X

shit like that is what I mean

[wanton orchid]

it does not
it claims to

[dire igloo]

none of that uses papers, science COMMUNICATION is not about publishing research or writing papers

it's about taking what is already there and making it accessible

[wanton orchid]

I never claimed it's about publishing what the actual fuck

[dire igloo]

THIS!!! is what I'm talking about

[wanton orchid]

keep pointing what you are so talking about without fucking reading me

[dire igloo]

then why did you ever bring papers into the discussion? #off-topic-tech message #off-topic-tech message

[dire igloo]

who the fuck claims that? I've only ever seen you do it

[dire igloo]

I don't understand what you are talking about because any time you say something, it's completely nonsensical and goes against the definitions that I thought we had established for this discussion

what is science communication and what is a scientist

[pure karma]

Can we just put a ban on science in this channel at this point

[dire igloo]

if you bring up scientific papers and the requirements posed for such a paper, then sorry, you're missing the point, that's not science communication

[wanton orchid]

YOU LITERALLY SAID MY DEFINITION OF THE SCIENTIFIC WAY WAS NOT THE ACTUAL DEFINITION

WHEN IT IS THE ONLY MOST IMPORTANT DEFINITION OF WHAT MAKES A SCIENTIFIC PAPER

I NEVER claimed science communications are publishing paper

[dire igloo]

it's moreso a ban on semantic discussions

because that's what it is

[wanton orchid]

you are completely loosing your own fucking questions man

I'm done

[dire igloo]

where the fuck did I say that? also, this was BEFORE i introduced the wikipedia article - and I think after that, we should have a common ground to go off of.
if you think that what I'm saying contradicts what wikipedia says, then tell me where and how. and if what you are about to say requires a definition that doesn't match wikipedia, then don't fuckin say it and adjust your understanding.

And yet again: science COMMUNICATION(!!!!), the ONLY TOPIC OF THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION, is NOT about writing papers
Scientific papers are IN NO WAY RELEVANT to discussing science COMMUNICATION

and if you believe that they are, then please enlighten me. because the core of my understanding of science communication is basically what wikipedia said - and for that, writing papers is a completely bullshit requirement

you can be a good science communicator without having ever published even a single paper

[dire igloo]

YOU are the one that makes up his own definitions for words and sticks to them even if counterevidence has been introduced

and unlike the discussion about saying "talented", I doubt that linguistical and/or cultural differences are the culprit for this fundamental misunderstanding here

[verbal raft]

FSR 4 footage

[charred relic]

@soft bloom The light isn't bending. The fabric of spacetime that the light travels upon is, the photon is just following it.

[soft bloom]

And do we have any other effect that hints at it, or is light just having yet another exception for itself?

[charred relic]

Moral of the story is, in space straight lines aren't always "straight" 😉

[dire igloo]

what fucking exception?

light travels in a straight line within space

black holes warp space

[charred relic]

It's not an exception, it's massless and not affected by gravity heh

[dire igloo]

light follows warped space

[charred relic]

outside of it being "on rails" and the rails can be "curved"

[dire igloo]

trains always go straight on their track
a curved track makes the train curve

does that mean trains go in curves? no, it means that there is a clarification

[dire igloo]

it has theoretical mass as I elaborated above

[charred relic]

The fact that is has no mass is what gives it it's "special" properties

iike being the fasted thing in space...

[wanton orchid]

are you fucking aware communication is also a science field and wikipedia may not be the most accurate ressource about it

[dire igloo]

E=h×f=mc²
m=h×f÷c²

[charred relic]

A speed you can't achieve. Because you increase your speed you need increased energy. AT the sped of light something with mass needs infinite energy.

Last time anybody checked energy is indeed finite as far as anyone can tell

[dire igloo]

are you aware that we are not talking about science nor are we talking about communication but that we are talking about science communication?
also, wikipedia is the ONLY and the BEST source we've had for the semantics of this entire discussion

[charred relic]

Besides all that quantum mechanics is just weird anyhow

[dire igloo]

if you just pick definitions how you like it and then complain about everyone else being wrong according to your definitions, then you're just stupid

[dire igloo]

E = mc² already includes relativistic mass

[charred relic]

I like using words in conversations that don't even exist.

[wanton orchid]

I'm giving actual example and argument, which in a single message compelely show the contradiction you were providing, which you try to avoid by saying it may partially not comply with what wikipedia says
also Yes I'm relying on communication science studying when the topic is about communication, because no I dont like dry talk

[charred relic]

Just to see if I get away with it...

[dire igloo]

and h*f is completely independent

[wanton orchid]

I do not "pick" definitions

scientific expert methodology is what is most accurate to define scientific methodology

[wanton orchid]

^

[dire igloo]

1. show me the contradiction
2. "I'm giving actual example and argument" without any evidence to back it up means "I'm just making shit up as it suits me"

[dire igloo]

and yet again: you are missing the point

[wanton orchid]

I didn show it, you jump back in the conversation ignoring every time to what point I was answering

[dire igloo]

this is merely about SCIENCE COMMUNICATION

stop trying to introduce shit that isn't science communication

[wanton orchid]

you ask me how many fins have a red fish, and then I answer, then you claim that's not the number of limbs a cock have

[dire igloo]

not related to discussion, dismissed
papers and requirements for them to count as scientific don't matter in a discussion about science communication
and me arguing about your bs definitions wasn't about "science" and "scientific" but about science COMMUNICATION

[soft bloom]

The bending of space time.
Does it imply that some space is denser then the other? How would that play with physics and chemistry of other 'particles'? (photon isn't really ones, especially when we are talking about them traveling, right?).
That's what I meant by "exception" - special explanation for a couple of observations that don't fit into main model.

[dire igloo]

you are omitting crucial parts and then claim "gotcha, contradiction"

that's bullshit, that's bad faith and frankly, if you keep up with that, fuck off

[wanton orchid]

and again that was not the point of this message, thank you to show how accurate this #off-topic-tech message example is

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-burning-hell-gif-4808980

[dire igloo]

you misunderstand what I say, I clarify what I meant, you then say "haha, contradiction" because for some godforsaken reason you didn't realize that maybe you just don't understand what I mean

[wanton orchid]

this is gaslighting at this point

[soft bloom]

Even if there would suddenly be an immense power heater of infinite energy it would take the seed of light for it it reach us, so... We don't know.

[wanton orchid]

"clarify what I meant"
the clarification

that message of yours does not match what I was talking 10 years ago ahaha so you are off topic there

[dire igloo]

also: I talk about house boats, you bring up shit about houses and boats, but continuously miss the part where neither of the two is actually being discussed

[dire igloo]

fuck off

[charred relic]

speaking of seeds.///

[dire igloo]

either you try to make an effort to understand me, then ask me about the shit that you don't understand, or you're just a toxic chatter, then bite me

[wanton orchid]

get a mirror at this point

I literally explained point by point
then you say "but it's only a specific point not the whole picture" NO FAKE

[dire igloo]

then explain to me how scientific papers matter for science communication. please, I beg you

[wanton orchid]

I ALREADY DID

3 times actually

you just dont care about the inside of what you are talking about

[dire igloo]

this generalization without examples makes it really hard to follow you.
please refer to what I said and how it's contradicting smth else that I said or ask me smth you didn't understand

[wanton orchid]

you are like Catto when they asked to be helped but no have to do anything themselve nor understand anything

you claim you want me to explain, but as soon as I point part of it and articulate it, you say you dont care because it's not your idea whole vague thing

[dire igloo]

you NEVER related it to "making science accessible to the public" and only ever related it to scientific work - and as was established by the wikipedia definitions, scientific work is far from the same as science communication

so, either you introduce a different definition with an explanation as to why that definition is better (being a more common understanding of the word) or you tell me how what you said remains true in the established definitions - or you state that you were wrong

[dire igloo]

if I ask you to explain something and you make it about scientific, of course I will dismiss it.
Because by established definition, scientific work does not matter for science communication

[twin dew]

And what do you communicate, without the work as backdrop?

[wanton orchid]

#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message (no practical example outthere btw :clueless:)
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message

[dire igloo]

that's what I wanted to clarify rn

[wanton orchid]

man just gaslighting me and does not want to read my fucking book I written there

[twin dew]

Point was, that there can be no "Scientific communication" step to dump down the research and make full picture, without some base works to dumb down and combine.

To provide some picture to the common masses.

[wanton orchid]

"you failed to synthetise you point in a single word I could understand and agree without thinking nor reading multiple message"

[wanton orchid]

thank you, and it's not about a simple "picture" but about something they can really relate to in their own life, and inviting them to

because science is actually not in the text

[twin dew]

Yeah, that is just documenting what was done, and what the doers/writers think they found.
But you need some kind of text to pass the information along effectively in the first step.
From the original group to rest of the world.

Just that those texts are very dense and expect you know a lot of the specific niche already, so they are almost impossible for anyone to read who isn't already in the specific niche.

Which brings that other concept in.
How to dissiminate the overall picture and make people interested to take it in.

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/elmo-burning-hell-gif-4808980

i look away for 2 minutes

[twin dew]

But I really didn't pay attention to what has been happening for last hours here.

[sand saddle]

This channel loves arguments

[verbal raft]

oh,trust me, this is the least argumentative "tech" channel you will find

[charred relic]

@sand saddle no it doesn't

[verbal raft]

why'd this arguement even happen in the first place ?

[soft bloom]

The abstract and conclusions/results part is still something worth reading even without understanding of the topic, because:

• well, those are conclusions, condensed
• it may open understanding to what you can familiarize with to understand the those said conclusions.
• it's way better then relying on any retelling solely.

[verbal raft]

it does need the rest of the optiscaler files

after getting through the optiscaler instalation

[dire igloo]

Hard to get a concise picture from those linked messages. My response exceeds the message limit, so you'll get multiple messages.

#off-topic-tech message
"I have multiple proof of it" never provided any.
Besides: that's just what you want good science communication to be, that's not about definitions. and if that's how you define SC, get off your high horse.

#off-topic-tech message
idk what resukt means, but I doubt it's relevant. missed these messages, sorry for that, will give my two cents now. I agree that science communication should have a minimum level of quality, but one of the biggest issues is that we lack the quantity. also, the higher we put the bar for good quality, the more we sacrifice quantity - and with the ultimate goal of science communication being accessibility, obsessing over quality will only make it worse.
Scientific research is a matter of scientific quality, science communication is a matter of communicative quality.

#off-topic-tech message Yes it is. You're probably a shitty communicator, but still a communicator. Failing to do it doesn't mean you're not doing it.
Also: your english sucks.

[verbal raft]

replace the opti files with these

[dire igloo]

#off-topic-tech message idk where I claimed that smth can't be missed. and for "scientific person": I elaborated why SC doesn't require the communicator to be a scientist.

#off-topic-tech message i fckn agreed with that?

#off-topic-tech message yet again gatekeeping science communication by limiting it to good SC. also, SC aims to reach those uninterested in science, not just those that are already interested.

#off-topic-tech message sounds like custom definition, elaborate or idc. or you're saying "only good SC counts as SC" again

#off-topic-tech message Never disagreed with that statement, unless you say "the actual thing" requires high accuracy, then that's not the goal of SC

#off-topic-tech message I already said the 300kmh example didn't make sense to me

#off-topic-tech message by definition, that's science communication. it's not scientific research, but it's not meant to be either.

#off-topic-tech message doesn't make sense, probably language barrier here. anyways, YT and ChatGPT aren't scientific, I agree. YT is a platform for SC tho.

#off-topic-tech message see above, didn't understand. I'll blame language barrier rather than you

[dire igloo]

yes, to do science communication there has to be science to communicate.
however, what I was arguing about was the requirement that science communication has to be done by scientists (people doing research to advance knowledge) and that accuracy is to be valued over outreach (outside of a minimum base level)

[dire igloo]

KEKw spread inaccurate info, I corrected them.
eventually, that evolved into KEKw ranting about public-facing science info to be hard to come by or being poorly communicated, which sparked the discussion about science communication

and right now, it's another semantics discussion because we keep using different definitions for the same words which introduces misunderstandings and inaccuracies that we then argue about

and instead of ever finding a common ground definition, we keep arguing about why someone else's definition is worse than our own

[verbal raft]

sounds like a pointless thing to argue about then

[dire igloo]

which is why I try to bring in outside sources, so we can just say "doesn't matter what I think, for this discussion, let's use that definition"

[verbal raft]

well

heres all i can say

https://tenor.com/view/grass-gif-12587352171248068863

https://tenor.com/view/tik-tok-gif-4963626947041558937

[verbal raft]

why dont we have a science channel ?

[charred relic]

go outside, touch grass. go inside, touch ass

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/stare-blank-gif-8379844

[dire igloo]

instructions unclear, got arrested for sexual assault

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[stray badger]

error 404: ass not found

[wanton orchid]

except you confused 'it does not matter what I think for' in 'does not matter what I'm specifically about to point about this'
if you dont want to get into detail dont claim wanting to talk about it period

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

this place is about to meltdown again

i can shmell it

[wanton orchid]

you : "it's does not fail it's simply not enough quantity, it's not a problem about quality, [point how its "done" wikipedia] [point how it's done other articles]"
me : "ask google about science, you will not lack any quantity or amount of it, and that will comply with your definition of 'science communication' except it will not convey any science

it fails because it use wrong methodology which push people to spread misinformation and to get blinded and confused by it"

you : "I fucking agreed with that"
#off-topic-tech message

[wanton orchid]

conclusion : your'e blocked now

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

https://tenor.com/view/dying-laughing-hilarious-spit-take-jennifer-lawrence-gif-16838316

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/mods-ban-this-guy-can-we-ban-this-guy-mod-moderator-moderators-gif-4656455223274005082

[dire igloo]

icymi: I posted the wikipedia articles to shortcut the semantics discussion. they are merely there to give a common understanding of what the words "science communication" and "scientist" mean. that's all I've introduced them for.
Any time I referenced them, I was telling you that what you said didn't match the definition.

[wanton orchid]

I'm just warning them I will not answer anymore

[dire igloo]

and can you please point me to where I told you that SC isn't failing? cuz last time I checked, I actually AGREED with that statement #off-topic-tech message

what I'm telling you is that your way of talking about science and science communication only reinforces the ivory tower perception - which as talked about in the university lecture that I linked is one of the key factors in why pseudoscience is on the rise and what SC needs to be to combat this

[dire igloo]

:babyrage:

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[soft bloom]

how far do you think this conversation is from what actual scientists do within their field?
I mean, in terms of capslock, heated arguments, semantics etc.

(well, linux kernel can be even more toxic)

[verbal raft]

wow

[dire igloo]

you: "science communication should provide people with the information they need to make their own conclusion"
me: "that will only reach the already interested people. these people will get the info anyway, science communication should also reach those that aren't actively searching"

and SC fails primarily because people perceive science as an ivory tower that you somehow need references and experience and degrees for, SC fails because science isn't accessible, at least less accessible than pseudoscience

the goal of science communication is primarily bridging the gap between experts and laymen - getting someone with zero prior knowledge to be informed about an important topic.
and a logical consequence is that science becomes accessible which means that pseudoscience has a harder time spreading and manifesting in people's minds

and you'd know ALL that had you just watched the video that I linked very early on #off-topic-tech message
https://youtu.be/mZzqQvx_2Aw

or bothered to read like the first three paragraphs of the wikipedia article I linked

[dire igloo]

• fails to make a concise point
• rambles about random loosely related stuff when asked for clarification
• misunderstands me constantly
• refuses to take a step back (or just ask) to avoid misunderstanding
• cherrypicks my statements to fabricate a perceived contradiction
• misrepresents my statements to the point of claiming the exact opposite of what I said
• blocks me cuz apparently I'm the one that can't be reasoned with

[verbal raft]

blocking someone is 100% like loosing an arguement

[dire igloo]

just like nitpicking grammar or spelling

[verbal raft]

thats why i laughed

[dire igloo]

*losing

[verbal raft]

😕🙁☹️😖😭

[dire igloo]

tbf tho, blocking someone who you believe to be just a troll that's trying to toxically derail the discussion is smth that I can understand

I don't do it myself cuz you can just decide to not engage

it's just that when you block someone, it means you're not just ignoring them, you're taking away all their ability to reach out to you

[verbal raft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZruAzzqXUY

why is this game so pretty

[dire igloo]

which means that you believe they offer zero value to you, not now nor ever

high attention to detail

[verbal raft]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICCdcyfsL28

[languid gulch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41eZsOYUVx0

one thing i am thankful for with the new pc: i can take out the gpu without needing to unplug it

[pure karma]

I just don’t care and unplug it anyway

[languid gulch]

this mobo has the "soft lock" PCIe thingy, so i'm not pushing my luck

[sour glen]

I couldn’t boot into safe mode cause this stupid bitlocker thing that’s bugged out on my PC. I don’t even have windows pro so I couldn’t have ever activated it to begin with. so annoying. What should I do to make sure I’m doing this safely without safe mode.

[charred relic]

Board is populated now 😄

[twin dew]

Not bugged.
With Windows 11, Windows Home default to encrypting the drive, and stores restore key in your MS Account you used to login.
Can be unencrypted and disabled.

[twin dew]

Just run it without Safe Mode, works fine.

[soft bloom]

Why everything looks so big on it? Like comparing lego to duplo

[charred relic]

lol perspective

[soft bloom]

Yeah, I thought that lamp base is like 10in tablet, and it was looking comparable... Must be the angle of camera contributing as well

[charred relic]

I gotta get to work on the arwork for the enclosure

[soft bloom]

But what got me thinking was the texture of plastic on some details. And the paths... They should stay small.

[charred relic]

I try to get components in stuff like that as tight to the board as I can, shortest legs possible.

Stuff like that can potentially pick up noise through them like an antenna

[sour glen]

I looked at my MS account and it’s not there and my PC store never did it since I made the PC. It happened after a BIOs update one day. I never activated it, ergo never got a key.

[twin dew]

Point is that you can just right-click the drive in This PC and select to manage and disable it.

Even on Win 11 Home

[wanton orchid]

isn't it partial encryption when home auto ?

[sour glen]

I tried that and it says that’s a windows 11 pro feature only and I can’t use it.

[charred relic]

Going to do a revision of this pedal but bring those internal pots and switches external. Also a couple of resistors that can be changed to alter the gain, can have 2 or 3 way switches to swap values on that on the fly 🙂

[twin dew]

No, full BitLocker, with just different name.

[wanton orchid]

weird

[charred relic]

I didn't know Home did that. But I haven't run Home in forever since Pro keys are like 20-22 bucks

[wanton orchid]

I always heard it was only partial data encryption which would be harder to troubleshoot actually

[twin dew]

Then something is very wrong.
As I just did that on Win 11 Home.

[sour glen]

I did the driver thing btw and it’s fine but yeah space marine 2 is still stuttering. Nothing to do with shader cache either cause I recompiled all of them after reinstalling the drivers.

[twin dew]

"Partial" in that it doesn't encrypt free space.
So TRIM etc. SSD stuff works properly.

[wanton orchid]

you can probably still check that setting from your Microsoft account if you used one for your computer

[twin dew]

Two modes for any all drive encryption, full that also encrypts free space, so it cannot be seen as free when encrypted, and that any data leftovers will be encrypted.
Or that second that doesn't encrypt free space.

[wanton orchid]

no
I meant partial as it only encrypt some files

the 2 other modes are full encryption modes

Basically home partial account bound fuckery
not bitlocker modes

[sour glen]

Actually I haven’t done it like that before, I tried it another way that said needs win 11 pro. I don’t see a “manage” option when right clicking it.

[twin dew]

Check Settings, Privacy & Security, Device Encryption

[sour glen]

Sry been a while since I tried to mess with it.

[twin dew]

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/device-encryption-in-windows-cf7e2b6f-3e70-4882-9532-18633605b7df

[twin dew]

Device Encryption is a Windows feature that enables BitLocker encryption automatically for the Operating System drive and fixed drives. It’s particularly beneficial for everyday users who want to ensure their personal information is safe without having to manage complex security settings.

When you first sign in or set up a device with a Microsoft account, or work or school account, Device Encryption is turned on and a recovery key is attached to that account. If you're using a local account, Device Encryption isn't turned on automatically.

Unlike BitLocker Drive Encryption, which is available on Windows Pro, Enterprise, or Education editions, Device Encryption is available on a wider range of devices, including those running Windows Home.

And BitLocker doesn't have any mode that differentiates which files are encrypted.
It is all or nothing, only with that free space encryption selection.

[sour glen]

Ah and u just turn off device encryption?

[twin dew]

Yes.

[sour glen]

Ah ok. See I was pressing manage bitlocker (right under it) and then it said needs pro all those yrs ago (still does for that part)

[twin dew]

In current Win 11 Home 24H2 while that was enabled, I was able to manage and disable in the normal BitLocker management screen.
But that isn't available now that it is disabled on that laptop.

And didn't have earlier experience on it.

[sour glen]

Thanks. And that’s literally only if my PC was physically stolen right, not sacrificing any other security turning it off? (Doesn’t matter to me since I only use this pc for gaming).

[twin dew]

Just makes it harder/impossible to modify/read the contents of the drive when it isn't in same machine and OS.

[wanton orchid]

your last message
again ofcourse it only have these two modes
THAT IS WHY I'M SPECIFYING I'M TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE

[twin dew]

And point is that even MS says it is BitLocker.
And I have never personally seen any source that says otherwise.

[sour glen]

Ok good cause I don’t wanna sacrifice online security of my PC.

[twin dew]

The only difference is how those backup recovery keys are handled.

MS account vs. on the user.

[wanton orchid]

it has had at least at some point a difference

[twin dew]

Or just bad info getting propagated.

[wanton orchid]

no problem in you never heard of it
but basically it would only encrypt user directories (probably to save speed)

it especially is not recoverable from external tools
unlike bitlocker format

[sour glen]

Any suggestions for the stuttering? I mean I seem to get stutter in games that r prone to it after doing some research but space marine 2 isn’t reported for having bad stuttering so idk if that’s a me or game issue (so hard to tell those days, especially with every UE5 game stuttering like mad).

I did the DDU already

And not crashing now

[wanton orchid]

now if they basically just perform bitlocker whole device
it's way better for recovery

[twin dew]

No, Device Encryption has never had that kind of differentiation.
Probably bad interpretation on about what MS says the benefits are.

[wanton orchid]

only need to ask Microsoft the key then

[sour glen]

FYI I left it on, but if I ever need to turn it off at least Ik I can. So thanks for that

[twin dew]

And it is recovable same way as normal BitLocker.
Just that that recovery key storage is different.

MS account and not stick or paper you have.

[sour glen]

Before I was wiping my pc every time I did a bios update.

[wanton orchid]

I don't fucking care about what Microsoft says
I'm talking about actual format reading on the disk from external tools

[twin dew]

And you need to check specific place in the MS account management web pages to get it.

[twin dew]

Any source that it has been different at any point?
Because I cannot find anything.

Some random conversations where people think Windows user password is somehow relevant.
When the whole point is that the encryption keys are stored in TPM, and BIOS and OS bootloader are attested and checked to be unmodified before TPM releases the keys.

[twin dew]

Or bad take on that it encrypts C:
But not EFI partition etc.

Technically speaking, Windows 11 does not encrypt your entire system disk, which
is divided into different logical volumes. Instead, it encrypts the C: drive, which is
the volume that contains Windows and other system files. (This drive is often referred
to as the system disk.) Any other volumes on this disk will not be encrypted (nor
visible while using Windows 11).

And neither does full BitLocker, which encrypts whichever partitions you select.

And as one major point of Device Encryption is to protect "outside" modification of the OS, by moving the disk to another computer or using another OS on same computer, "just" doing C:\Users\ would be counterproductive.

And that would need file system awareness to do.

Windows does have separate folder/file level encryption system tied to users password.

But that isn't in use by default.

[wanton orchid]

ngl I feel like you just forgot I know very well how the whole system partitioning layer filesystem etc process goes
I never implied efi partition being unencrypted would make bitlocker partial
Windows always show partitions as devices
bitlocker is a partition thing
what I'm referring to is inside a partition

[wanton orchid]

now you are talking to me
that could very well being it
so you say it does not perform this anymore ?

[twin dew]

Yes, I have understood.
And I have not found single source to say that Device Encryption works like that.
Only the opposite.

[twin dew]

No.
As that system has never been used (even in Windows 11) by default.

And has been available for LONG time.

Since NTFS 3.0 in Windows 2000.

[wanton orchid]

what I was relying on is observation linked to that king of things
https://github.com/libyal/libbde/blob/main/documentation/BitLocker Drive Encryption (BDE) format.asciidoc
look for "To Go" also known as bitlocker "hybrid" partition mode
and other technical notes in recovery tools

now officially that's for usb stick

but it could have been what was going on automatically earlier in windows 10/11 previews or something
because that pointed toward that kind of unsupported format

again
if it now is bitlocker full partition format
then it's nice

it's at least that much less bullshit from Microsoft

[twin dew]

Do you have any source for that memory you have about it not being normal bitlocker from the start?

[wanton orchid]

I will try
it's sparse

[twin dew]

And that was the point.
You seemed to have hazy possible memory of Device Encryption at some point being less complete.
But you didn't bother to try to verify that.
And I couldn't find anything that would have suggested that on quick searching.

Only the opposite.

[wanton orchid]

iirc it could be in libcrypt documentation notes
it's not the most reliable but these devs knows the real shit
so I would not expect them to miss that actual format used by automatic encryption

[twin dew]

libgcrypt?

[wanton orchid]

the point was to explain what I was talking about in the first place

[twin dew]

Which was never a problem?
I didn't realize you thought I hadn't understood your point that it somehow only would have been encrypting some files.

[wanton orchid]

"oh you mean bitlocker unencrypted free space"

• "no I do not : detail and arg"

[wanton orchid]

it at least seemed to ?

[wanton orchid]

you didn't assessed earlier that you got it but was thinking/knowing it was not applying
you went straight to what bitlocker applies

[twin dew]

Because Device Encryption IS and always has been BitLocker, just with reduced user control.

[wanton orchid]

So I was like "no that's not what the technical aspect of what I'm talking about"

https://man.archlinux.org/man/cryptsetup.8 nothing there
I still link it though because that's around that stuff I had seen notes about not being able to read auto encrypted home files

[twin dew]

Then provide any source that talks about there being difference.
As I cannot find any.

It might have been that limitation that they cannot open non-protected BitLocker volumes.
Which Device Encryption is until you do that MS Account attachment to Windows where it can then upload that recovery key.
Basically during Windows 11 install, it starts encrypting everything since partition format.
Just doesn't enable that TPM attestation stuff etc.

And CryptSetup doesn't seem to support unencrypting BitLocker partitions in that mode.

So if you install Win 11 Home, don't use MS account, and don't disable that "waiting" Device Encryption (Encrypted but not locked behind TPM), then it cannot access that partition.

As possible thing behind this mixup.

Because basically with Win11 Home, that BitLocker is just partially enabled since start of actual installing of new OS.
But only gets fully activated once you log into MS account.
And in that in-between state CryptSetup (at least at some point), didn't support accessing that kind of BitLocker volumes.

Just because they haven't coded in the parts to read the key in that specific weird state.
As it is "useless".
You seem to be able to do the same with regular BitLocker by using password auth with empty password, again it cannot access that volume.

Just CryptSetup not supporting specific completely useless (completely unprotected to any Windows) mode.
That gets used with Windows 11 Home Device Encryption from install to first MS Account login.

Or until you manually disable that waiting Device Encryption.

[wanton orchid]

very possible

make sense

I'm not on my pc so it's way harder to gather sources
but you well explained it

[charred relic]

I am shit with graphical art...

shit i tell you! manure!

[wanton orchid]

though did you find a specific information / explanation on the "waiting bitlocker state" from install thing ?
I'm interested in at least bookmarking it

[charred relic]

Bucket is easy enough. I'd say that's an improvement for the enclosure labeling...

[twin dew]

Need to try to find some proper source.
Going from memory right now on that.

But basic idea is that Windows 11 Home installer enables Bitlocker from the moment the drive is formatted.
Just doesn't actually protect the encryption key until recovery key is saved somewhere, by logging into MS account later in the install process when it then gets saved in MS cloud.
To not have any extra CPU usage to encrypt the drive after that etc.
Or any unencrypted "old", deleted, data in the free space.

And I expected then that works by saving the encryption key in the spot in BitLocker meant for Password unlock mode key, that is normally encrypted/decrypted with that password.
Just doing it with empty password.

[charred relic]

i might need to find a starving college kid that does graphical art on the cheap...

[twin dew]

Trying to find a source for that soon.

Need to eat my breakfast first.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-bitlocker

From older version:

BitLocker automatic device encryption starts during Out-of-box (OOBE) experience. However, protection is enabled (armed) only after users sign in with a Microsoft Account or an Azure Active Directory account. Until that, protection is suspended and data is not protected. BitLocker automatic device encryption is not enabled with local accounts, in which case BitLocker can be manually enabled using the BitLocker Control Panel.

[charred relic]

https://tenor.com/view/egg-face-talk-think-about-it-gif-1573564549501668086

[wanton orchid]

ngl I kind of hate bitlocker for that specific behavior
even when you use bitlocker directly
it has a state where key is unprotected on the drive
which means with enough hacking you may be able to restore it from the driver itself (though not with volume normal data access)

[twin dew]

And IIRC there is specific type icon for that mode if you completed OOBE without MS Account.

And that encrypted but not protected mode is active still.

[wanton orchid]

things like truecrypt always makes extremely care to never push the drive key in a way enough material is there to decrypt it

[twin dew]

And the primary source:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/operating-system-security/data-protection/bitlocker/#device-encryption

Unlike a standard BitLocker implementation, device encryption is enabled automatically so that the device is always protected. When a clean installation of Windows is completed and the out-of-box experience is finished, the device is prepared for first use. As part of this preparation, device encryption is initialized on the OS drive and fixed data drives on the computer with a clear key that is the equivalent of standard BitLocker suspended state. In this state, the drive is shown with a warning icon in Windows Explorer. The yellow warning icon is removed after the TPM protector is created and the recovery key is backed up.

[wanton orchid]

"so that the device is always protected."
I hate you Microsoft
I fucking hate you
you can't fucking grasp how fucking much I want you to shut your shit up Microsoft

[wanton orchid]

it says it enroll it in tpm right away (after install completed)

(but bad for recovery ofcourse)

[twin dew]

Yeah, I'm not sure on where that unprotected key is stored.
Either on disk in that password key slot with empty password.
Or TPM with just no limitations on who can ask for it.

If in TPM, then that drive cannot be moved to another computer and read in any way.

If in that password mode encrypted key slot on the disk, then it could be.

[wanton orchid]

on disk means no protection
in tpm it mean no recovery outside computer state

[twin dew]

Yup.

[wanton orchid]

I mean it says tpm enrolled
but suspended before that
so it's unclear when exactly in time it gets enrolled

and it's unclear how accessible is that tpm key

[twin dew]

I'll try to test that in next few weeks when I have to do Windows install anyways.
I can set old computers drive to BitLocker on, in Suspended state, and try to move it to another computer and see if that works or not.
If in TPM, it won't.
If on disk, it will work.

[wanton orchid]

I hope beside being tpm managed it's not further tied to windows

[twin dew]

Or install Win11 Home and see what happens, before doing the actual install.

[wanton orchid]

for bitlocker state it's explicit
suspended mean you can move it around

[twin dew]

Which means that the key is stored unprotected on the disk.

[wanton orchid]

yes
but when active bitlocker also have recovery keys

[twin dew]

So that password mode with empty password would be most likely.

[twin dew]

... clear key that is the equivalent of standard BitLocker suspended state. ...

[wanton orchid]

here it's ambiguous because it's says tpm after suspended like
but then how tied is it really ?

[twin dew]

That Recovery Key is actually just the actual raw encryption key.

Or something that can be converted into that with some simple hash or like.

[wanton orchid]

sounds like it yep

[twin dew]

It is long string of numbers as you get it.

So cannot be the raw one, but something that gets converted.
As it isn't a hex string, but just decimal numbers.

[wanton orchid]

but I'm not talking about bitlocker then
but about that partial state without recovery key (I mean not saved)
tldr : is the tpm key guarded or not

[twin dew]

As MS wrote, exactly same as Suspended BitLocker.

[wanton orchid]

no
that's not even using tpm
I'm talking about the next state

[twin dew]

And then gets enrolled to TPM with attestation protections when recovery key has been saved in MS cloud with MS account login.

Like normal full Bitlocker with manually managed recovery key.

[wanton orchid]

so you say "when ms account linked" ?

[twin dew]

Only difference is that recovery key management.
MS Cloud on your MS Account vs. manual management.

[twin dew]

Like that page says after the quoted part.

If the device isn't Microsoft Entra joined or Active Directory domain joined, a Microsoft account with administrative privileges on the device is required. When the administrator uses a Microsoft account to sign in, the clear key is removed, a recovery key is uploaded to the online Microsoft account, and a TPM protector is created. Should a device require the recovery key, the user is guided to use an alternate device and navigate to a recovery key access URL to retrieve the recovery key by using their Microsoft account credentials

If a device uses only local accounts, then it remains unprotected even though the data is encrypted

I expected that if you had more questions you would have actually opened that page and read on.

[wanton orchid]

it's simply the abstract sounded like it's tpm enrolled even before recovery key is linked to account
which means either the tpm key is guarded and screw everyone
or it's not guarded and you can open the drive as long as you are on the same machine

[twin dew]

Until that Admin mode MS Account login:
Same as Suspended BitLocker.
After that: Normal BitLocker with TPM with Recovery Key in MS Cloud.

[wanton orchid]

ok ok
noted

again sorry not on pc
I'm even struggling to write messages

[twin dew]

So TPM attests that BIOS and OS haven't changed.

Before releasing the key when asked.

Well, the unencrypted parts of OS bootloader.

Which is why it must be set to Suspended mode for BIOS updates.

Or you will need that Recovery Key on next boot.

As that attestation of BIOS/UEFI will fail.

[wanton orchid]

yep

and it's also why suspend = roam able

[twin dew]

Wasn't sure if Suspend just sets TPM to mode that allows the key to be asked always (disk still cannot be moved to another machine and accessed).
Or stores the key on the disk without protection (can be accessed on another machine)

Which was the point of testing I was planning.

Because I have not tried to find which is the case via outside sources yet.

[wanton orchid]

and earlier I was wondering if the tpm can be asked always
was the state the automatic encryption was before ms account linking (which your source state as : no, it's completely suspended)

[twin dew]

MS explicitly says that it is same as normal Suspended Bitlocker.
But point is that I'm not sure myself what actually happens when Bitlocker is put into that Suspended state.

But probably that unprotected key on disk.

[wanton orchid]

the suspended state must allow for tpm store reset/wipe
that's why it's roamable (you can choose to use recovery key instead though)

[twin dew]

So if TPM wipe is allowed in Suspended mode, then the key must be on the disk during that.

[wanton orchid]

yes

and that's why I don't like bitlocker

I suspect it's always suspended temporarily even when you do manual bitlocker setting

nsa shit backdoor like

[twin dew]

Trades security for usability.
Not as secure as some of the alternatives.
But for wide adoption, that is needed.

Better than not having even BitLocker for lot of things.

[wanton orchid]

completely agree on this

but I don't like it in a professional setup where you enable it manually and save recovery

on that side it's a bit scammy

it should never be suspended unless explicitly requested when bitlocker is used manually

but as I said
I suspect it's suspended first

because it ask for a reboot to lock it

[twin dew]

No, with full BitLocker it goes to full protected mode on enable.
And Suspend is always manual selection, IIRC for just one restart and automatically goes back to full protected mode after next reboot (when I have had to suspend it for BIOS updates on my laptop).

Don't use it on desktops, just the laptop.

And only starts to encrypt when you enable it.

No pre-encryption waiting for activation like that Device Encryption.

[wanton orchid]

ok then it's better than I thought 👍

[twin dew]

And of course you could just decide to not suspend and just input the recovery key on next boot after BIOS update or like.

Or on moving the disk.

Just that inputting them is real pain.

[wanton orchid]

then the only annoying part is no way to input recovery key efficiently when doing maintenance
the windows default recovery screen is very very clanky

[wanton orchid]

yes

[twin dew]

36 digits

Dorry, 48

[wanton orchid]

I'm not even sure if you can edit it

it just override

useless pain

[twin dew]

Made typo in calculator... did 6*6 for some reason when it is 6*8 (eight sets of 6 digits)

[wanton orchid]

I did have to input it when I swapped GPU

Was happy

[twin dew]

Yeah, but point that I would rather suspend for BIOS update, even when that is theoretically less secure, than input that recovery code after.

While in theory that can leave the raw key on FLASH cells for some time, just in block that is marked as unused but not yet erased.

Because recovering that needs lot more than normal access to that SSD.

[wanton orchid]

imo the best would be to create temporary fast reload recovery keys
(big password stored on a usb stick basically)
that way it would be both fully secure and fast

the key would be then override again anyway

no chain break

[twin dew]

BitLocker already supports that?
You can use TPM, USB key, or Password.

And switch between them whenever, or even enable multiple at same time via console.

[wanton orchid]

I didn't see a usb key mode option to go to
sorry

[twin dew]

GUI side only allows one at a time.

[wanton orchid]

ok ok
great
so my way would be usb key before bios update
sorry I didn't find it

should search ui option better next time

[twin dew]

Ah, not on GUI at this time.
Only password or smart card or TPM.

Or I might be misremembering, found how to require USB key in addition to TPM so far.

[wanton orchid]

So usb key is an option I must study
and tldr : "suspended" is a bit misleading wording
I would call it "degraded"

[twin dew]

But trying to see if JUST USB key is allowed.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/manage-bde

[wanton orchid]

it needs group policy settings to show up apparently

[twin dew]

The one I found reference for was to use USB key and/or password in addition to TPM.
But not sure if USB key without TPM is option.

Ah, Win11 things.
That is why I remembered just USB drive as option.

When I was setting up BitLocker on that laptop while still on Win10.

[wanton orchid]

but there are other options maybe ?
this looks like the real ui for commandline like settings

I will check that when I get on my computer 👍

nice to learn how to properly use bitlocker so it's actually secure

[twin dew]

That sets requirements, which will then adjust the GUI side.
That command line tool I linked the usage documentation allows for any config.

[wanton orchid]

but if we set requirements for "either tpm or startup key" maybe it'll work ?

[twin dew]

Numerical password.
Full password.
USB key with key file on it.
Certificate.
TPM
possibly some others.

[twin dew]

All those options have "with TPM" in them in that specific Group Policy entry.

On Windows 11.

[wanton orchid]

one day I'll maybe learn the windows certificate api
I want to know how do you build a Smartcard connector driver/software basically

[wanton orchid]

weird
sounds like yet an other pita for no good reasons

[twin dew]

On Windows 11, I only get this in the GUI side.
But IIRC on Win10 there was option also to just use USB key.

And that config should be possible still with that command line tool.

By adding USB key protector, and removing TPM protector.

[wanton orchid]

that "allow startup key with tpm" sounds like it though
otherwise it does not make sense as tpm will always unlock it

[twin dew]

That should combine both in some way.
That you need that TPM and that USB key both.

When that USB key is enabled.

And that Require version requires the person to create USB key.

[wanton orchid]

then what is difference between require and allow ?
gui settings ?

ok

a bit stupid to not allow disabling tpm protector when having usb key setup on gui

[twin dew]

TPM is always in use.
Then settings if USB key in addition is:
Not allowed at all
Optional to create, needed if created.
Required to be created.

[wanton orchid]

especially if commandline allows it still

[twin dew]

Lot of more advanced parts in Windows where you cannot get full range of options via GUIs and need command line or powershell to adjust.
ReFS and Storage Spaces both for example as things I have had to use.

Lot of boot manager related stuff too like that.

And remember that in most cases, just USB key is less secure over all than TPM with attestation.

As that USB key contents are completely unprotected. As it is just normal file.

So it is now offered as additional factor.
But not as only one.

Better than fully suspended Bitlocker.

[wanton orchid]

way better than fully suspended bitlocker, especially for a temporary use (do not reuse the same keyfile)

[soft bloom]

you ever send a message in Discord and can't remember even the exact server to follow up?

[verbal raft]

DLSS FG in atcion !

[sour glen]

@twin dew Games r crashing again when alt tabbing. I even reinstalled windows completely again and did the DDU after in safe mode got that to work). Is the latest nvidia driver just busted? I got every required driver.

Should I download the windows 11 preview update? I dont usually install preview updates but.. might be worth? I saw on Guru3Ds site they have a hotfix driver for nvidia avalaible too.

[twin dew]

Are you using exclusive fullscreen, or windowed fullscreen?
Because exclusive fullscreen crashing on alt-tab on some computers or some games had been problem for 20+ years.

[sour glen]

Doom eternal only has a fullscreen option, as for the other games I use borderless fullscreen always.

They all crashing

Is preview update a bad idea?

[twin dew]

So which Nvidia driver(s) do you have that crash issue?

[sour glen]

latest 572.16

[twin dew]

Which seems to have various issues with it.

So try the previous 566.36

[sour glen]

This keeps appearing too with crashes

[soft bloom]

We had horizontal tearing so we invented Vsync
Now we have vertical tearing
Progress

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/champoy-el-risitas-kek-issou-etu-gif-17837830

[sour glen]

is there a known issues list on nvidias webite cause I havent heard anyone have this issue

[verbal raft]

the 5070 TIE will be 6% faster than the 4070 super TI

MARK MY WORDS

cuz it has 6% more cores

[sour glen]

It was Nvidia shadowplay instant replay feature causing it! I turned it off and no issues now. Kinda annoying cause I do use that. But I’m gonna assume they fix it next patch.

[pure karma]

the entire nvidia app is a big no no

and dont even get me started with the fact that depending on what you play that clip feature can easily use like 25GB of space per game sesion

in just straight clips

and the audacity to have it on by default is wild

[jagged snow]

"This feature exists, thus the user must want to use it"

"As such, we're going to add more features so the user can use our software more"

[charred relic]

https://tenor.com/view/cackles-star-wars-sheev-palpatine-gif-15366449

[wanton orchid]

hasnt it been discontinued basically ?

I've deleted shadowplay to use obs instead since forever, it's been a long time since nvidia started to actually work with obs devs

[sour glen]

No it’s not from what I understand? Doesn’t OBS hog resources? I was gonna try using steams one instead as a replacement but the audio didn’t work in some games. Also I dunno if it can work for non steam games if u add them to ur steam library potentially?

[jagged snow]

Obs is professional quality broadcasting software

If it uses more resources than you want, your settings are wrong

[wanton orchid]

it does not hog ressources more than shadowplay, it actually use a bit less eventually, the down side of obs is needing setup (but there are preset for shadowplay like usecases now)

[sour glen]

Well aware but Im not a professional I just wanna send dumb clips to friends every now and then

[jagged snow]

For sure

I'm just saying, you have the choice to make it super light on resources if you want

And there are some addons to let you start and stop recording with keyboard shortcuts

[wanton orchid]

it does not need addons

[jagged snow]

And (iirc) even on that gives you game clip functionality so you can just have it running and only save 30s

[wanton orchid]

you can set those in vanilla

[jagged snow]

Not for the shortcut, got ahead of myself

[sour glen]

I might look into it but I’ve just heard ppl needing “streaming PCs” or another gpu to use it without hindering gsme performace in the past.

But maybe that’s just the past?

[jagged snow]

Oh yeah that's really not the case

[sour glen]

2mins reasonable (I like 2 mins for stuff like R6 siege).

[wanton orchid]

in obs you can actually fine tune what it uses

[jagged snow]

I'm aware

[wanton orchid]

miss replied

[jagged snow]

I've worked with obs in a professional capacity before

[wanton orchid]

discord being discord

[jagged snow]

Ahh, no worries

[wanton orchid]

those are only about streaming and maximizing absolute performance for professionnal, shadow play is not black magic either and do use ressources too

[wanton orchid]

then this ^

[sour glen]

Yeah but it just doesn’t seem to use that many. I just wanna know if it has parity to shadow plays quality for the same resource usage. My fps doesn’t take a hit from it at all.

If u setup rifht

[jagged snow]

Yes

If you set it up right, quality:load will be the same or better than shadowplay

[sour glen]

Got any good tutorials u watched to set it up right or is it pretty basic to setup?

So far ins hadowplay im recording at 1440p at a bit rate of 90 at 60fps

Also what’s the best version of it to download? It’s on steam, windows store and browser ofc. Any best source to get it from?

[jagged snow]

It doesn't really matter

Windows store or their website is where I'd go but that's just preference

[twin dew]

Also, Windows has Shadowplay equivalent in Game Bar too.

If you don't want to go to OBS level of complexity.

[jagged snow]

(which has been flaky and unreliable when I've tried to use it and iirc requires some extra software now)

[sour glen]

I’m ok with complexity so long as the settings don’t get screwed up on a random update of the program and it works exactly like shadowplay resource intensity wise for the same quality.

[twin dew]

When using OBS on defaults, with GPU compression, and no overlays etc. it uses very minimal resources.
But if you tune it for quality etc. with CPU encoding and so on, you can use a lot.

[wanton orchid]

official website

[sour glen]

Can it do this just fine/the same probably?

[jagged snow]

Yes

[wanton orchid]

vanilla

[jagged snow]

👍

[wanton orchid]

and you can set same in start and stop

for toggle

[sour glen]

Was bout to say keybinds r a must too. Haha. Can u take screenshots with it? While replay is on too?

[wanton orchid]

one HUGE thing with obs : is you are free to have add-ons on your scenes to show gamepad inputs etc later one
AND YOU CHOOSE THE CAPTURE METHOD (every game is different, especially online game play cat and mouse with cheaters)

[wanton orchid]

you still can use windows and/or game native, but obs also have shortcut for screenshots

[wanton orchid]

an other nice thing about obs is you can reuse your setup when you change graphic card vendor

you simply would have to change your encoding settings to use the other vendor acceleration

[sour glen]

Well I got shadowplay to work without the games crashing by allowing it to record my desktop too. Is there any reason anyone can think of other than drivers being bad atm that would cause that? It crashes when I’m alt tabbing when it’s only allowed to record games

[wanton orchid]

game anti cheat

if you installed vanguard esea faceit eac it may be the culprit

now faceit is very not likely to be intrusive, while vanguard is on the other side of the spectrum

(as in changing your computer behavior)

typically here is my sweet spot settings with gtx 1080 ti replay buffer

[twin dew]

For switching from game to desktop?
When Shadowplay should stop recording?
And not the opposite?

[wanton orchid]

I record 1280x720 lanczos full pass from 2560x1440 for efficiency (enough resolution to keep all the important details of what is going on while leaving small files)

[wanton orchid]

I dont understand your question, anti cheat hate game direct records

but mostly allow full screen record

which "desktop record" is permitting

especially league of legends for instance

show black screen with vanguard unless you are in "capture desktop" mode

which is screen recording

[twin dew]

But why would that anticheat cause crash on stopping of recording.
Wouldn't it cause issues when starting a recording?

[sour glen]

Yeah it’s not anti cheat cause the first game I installed to test the issue was doom eternal (due to its crazy good optimisation Ik if it failed the crash test somethings up lol).

[wanton orchid]

it could do weird stuff when you alt-tab

[twin dew]

And it is crashing the whole GPU driver.

If I understood that correctly.

[wanton orchid]

root anti cheat like vanguard fucks around with drivers calls

that's why

I specifically talked about these anti cheat

[sour glen]

Anti cheats r so useless. They seem to get in the way of things too like allowing games on steamOS/linux and they don’t seem to help the cheating crisis rn

If it wasn’t for them I’d be playing on Linux instead. Windows 11 is the worst lately and Linux is stupidly compatible with gsme thanks to steam deck. I’ve never used Linux but certainly would give it a go if it wasn’t for that

[pure karma]

Or use software 256 (or something like that) if im not mistaken

[wanton orchid]

but that's much more ressource intensive

btw you could do Intel/amd igpu encoding on hybrid setup with obs
which you also can't with shadow play

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_fHJIYENdI

folding at home
proteins

I don't want to start the convo yet again, but an awesome example of scientist doing 'science communication' is 3blue1brown
aka he studies the field, uses what he is talking about, and makes that educational
just think that example was missing

[dire igloo]

In the field of mathematics, I love to point towards Numberphile too - dude ain't much of a mathematician, but he loves the field and is well-connected, so he gets the experts in front of the camera and lets them present their topics in a very digestible fashion

[soft bloom]

hehe, and if we add Welch Lab, we have great trinity with various style of presentation and covered topics

[verbal raft]

we need a science channel ASAP

[jagged snow]

Eh, I think science falls under tech

Imo anyways

I'd rather have one channel that stays busier than two that feel kinda dead

[verbal raft]

This channel still feels dead

[jagged snow]

Yeah I do miss how it was four years ago

[sharp oasis]

It was more lively a few years ago.

[jagged snow]

We've lost a lot of people since then

But some of the pepole that spend the msot time here got chased away by politics

[sharp oasis]

Most of the more notable people are still here I guess.

[verbal raft]

And there have been people that left BC of how we aren't actually talking about tech,rather about whatever peaked someone's interest at one moment

[sharp oasis]

Same with magicz (he's just here we all see to keep him here despite his better efforts to kill all his tech)

[jagged snow]

We lost Kad, amber, herg

[sharp oasis]

Really?

[jagged snow]

Also kade
Me for a while

[sharp oasis]

Damn.

I miss herg

[verbal raft]

Amber? Kad ?

[jagged snow]

Before your time lol

Some of the people that used to spend the most time here

And IMO, in general, the PC enthusiast demographic is becoming very apathetic

[verbal raft]

[jagged snow]

The reason we talk about tech less is that from 30 series launch to now there's been basically nothing to talk about except how bad of a deal the new tech is and how the x3d cpus are still the best

So it's no surprise that everyone is a bit less chatty

[verbal raft]

and how intel is dying

[jagged snow]

Oh right
The same way it was 5 years ago

[sharp oasis]

Its kinda the same story for the last what 3-4 years?

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/intc-stock-intc-coffin-intel-coffin-gif-14403125517727857092

[jagged snow]

Yeah pretty mjuch

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/stare-blank-gif-8379844

[sharp oasis]

Even more understandable why many of us have left

[jagged snow]

Yep

[verbal raft]

: (

[jagged snow]

I've lost interest in talking about new tech because the most interesting tech to me is still the stuff from 5 years ago because that's what I can actually afford

[sharp oasis]

Same.

[verbal raft]

well R.I.P.

[jagged snow]

And so I've really started to pivot my interests to cool things other than gaming anyways

[sharp oasis]

Others laugh at it but I frankly love my 6900XT it is quite the card even to this day.

[jagged snow]

Gaming is a hobby but I've really been trying to do more with all my tech in the past few years

And gaming doesn't hold anything new and exciting for me

[verbal raft]

ive been thinking about buying a 7800 XT or a 9070 if those come out at a good price

[sharp oasis]

My interests have branched more and more into rally and cars and different games and more into overclocking then really ever before. Im dabbling in linux, blender, ect. Yk.

[jagged snow]

I only own or play one game newer than satisfactory

[sharp oasis]

Almost all my games really now are older then satisfactory

I still play eve online for hecks sake

And that game has been around for what 22 years?

[verbal raft]

oposite for me

[sharp oasis]

Its older then me

[jagged snow]

The finals is the only game I play that I picked up more recently than satisfactory

[visual tree]

When tech is boring, you can always escape to VR where you can make your own reality

[sharp oasis]

I saw

[jagged snow]

||Tasteless||

[jagged snow]

And it's a great game
But the thing I like about it is that it borrows a lot more from older shooters than any modern one does

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/long-tears-gif-11087877242190144149

[jagged snow]

The combat feels super similar to BO2 but it's got a neat twist on it that I really like

[sharp oasis]

Ill be sure to give the finals a try then.

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/stare-blank-gif-8379844

[sharp oasis]

I've been getting more into Arma reforger and stuff

Arma III

As well as back into eve after a three year hiatus

[jagged snow]

Let me know if you want to play, I can pick you up sometime

[sharp oasis]

I almost wanna extend an invite to play satisfactory one time. See how you handle my absolute chaotic methods of accomplishing a task.

[jagged snow]

Lol 🤣

[sharp oasis]

I think combined across a few worlds between me and my friends we've put over 4k hrs in the game

[jagged snow]

Fun fact, I don't think either of you were here for this

But we used to have a satis dedi for this channel

Back immediately after release

[sharp oasis]

Dedicated servers?

[jagged snow]

Yeah

[verbal raft]

wat

[sharp oasis]

Always have thought of getting one but back when I started desync was such an issue in multiplayer worlds

[jagged snow]

It's a lot better now

[verbal raft]

spaghett ?

[jagged snow]

They're pretty playable currently

[sharp oasis]

Orderly spagget

[jagged snow]

Have you seen what my playstyle looks like?

[sharp oasis]

I have not

[verbal raft]

have you seen mine ?

[jagged snow]

I think so 💀

I remember somebody making me mute this server

Probably you

[verbal raft]

well the way U4 me built💀

[verbal raft]

HUH

[verbal raft]

Me ??????

what did i do ,????

[jagged snow]

Nothing recent but here's a bit
#design-and-architecture message
#design-and-architecture message
#design-and-architecture message
Don't have any screenshots of actual interiors on this laptop

[jagged snow]

Somebody posted something so horrendous that I muted 💀

[verbal raft]

what ? building wise ?

[jagged snow]

Yeah lol

I thought I remembered it being your pfp

[verbal raft]

[jagged snow]

I could be wrong though

[verbal raft]

i changed my pfp BTW

[jagged snow]

Anyhow

[verbal raft]

about a day ago

[jagged snow]

Oh? I must be then

[verbal raft]

i did build some spaghett back in le day

in U4/5 era

and U7 too....

[jagged snow]

I'm wanting to pivot to making some LoRa IoT devices myself and open sourcing them

[sharp oasis]

Advertised 3.1gen1 but in reality is only peak 200mb/s

[verbal raft]

OOF

[twin dew]

MB/s? Mb/s?

[jagged snow]

Oh yeah sandisk makes plenty of drives that list a high speed usb standard and are dog slow

[sharp oasis]

MB/s sorry

[twin dew]

200MB/s cannot be done with USB2.

200MB/s is pretty good for USB stick.

[sharp oasis]

Iirc 3.1 gen 1 is 5gbps

[jagged snow]

USB2 is up to 400 Mb/s

[jagged snow]

There are some samsung drives that go faster, and I'd really like to pick them up because I do have a usecase

[pure karma]

i know amber actually

[sharp oasis]

Ill definitely take 200MB/s tho

[twin dew]

GBps.
So about 625MB/s for the bus itself.

[jagged snow]

I know you do

[glossy glacier]

it's more than USB 2.0 speeds, so it's technically true

[pure karma]

altho she was out the door by that point

i know her because of her return

[jagged snow]

Ahh

[sharp oasis]

I feel bad I do not quite remember amber.

[jagged snow]

Short lived though it was

[twin dew]

And like I said, that is very good transfer speed for USB stick.

[sharp oasis]

Indeed so

[glossy glacier]

yes, now known as 3.2 gen 1x1 🙄

[sharp oasis]

So many names

The USB standard is so needlessly overcomplicated

[jagged snow]

It really is pretty rough

[glossy glacier]

still better than HDMI?

[sharp oasis]

That I agree.

[jagged snow]

usbc was supposed to unify everything but now we have a ton of different standards with the same connector

[pure karma]

oh yea no all usb drive speeds are bs atleast all the ones i have owned

[jagged snow]

At least they have a higher number=better naming scheme

[pure karma]

most of them advertise 100MB/S but get like 15-35MB/S

[glossy glacier]

it did simplyfy the A, B, mini-A, mini-B, micro-A, micro-B and the singular AB connectors out there

[jagged snow]

Very true

[glossy glacier]

ha! no

[pure karma]

hence why i hate it

[jagged snow]

(for the most part, yes)

[pure karma]

i even hate it on my phone because i still have to drag lightning around anyway

[twin dew]

Need to change Windows USB mode to get full speed.
By default Windows does all USB block device writes synchronously, that tanks the speeds.

[glossy glacier]

they made HDMI 2.X a joke, because now everything can call itself the latest version, it justs needs a list of supported features...

[sharp oasis]

Im using linux so id have to do some digging to do a such

[pure karma]

ahh ok then i dont want that because ejecting drives sucks

[glossy glacier]

read vs write

[sharp oasis]

Still I do say 200MB/s for a $20 cad USB drive

[twin dew]

That explains you getting those full speeds without tuning.

[sharp oasis]

Pretty impresseive.

[jagged snow]

Yeah that's true

[pure karma]

isent linux on better performance by default

[sharp oasis]

I got the 200MB/s in windows. Not in linux I havent tested linux yet to compare

[pure karma]

hence why my drives were driving me nuts because it woudlent save what i tranfered as soon as i unplugged it it would disapear

[sharp oasis]

And that's without the tuning

Tho

Could you oc a USB stick lmao

@twin dew I am curious could I partition off part of my phones storage and have it as a separate bootable USB?

[glossy glacier]

probably not

[twin dew]

Usually no today.
As they aren't normal USB block devices anymore.

[glossy glacier]

most phones emulate the "USB Drive" function

[twin dew]

No, most phones today are specific kind of USB media device, not basic block one.

[glossy glacier]

yeah,. thats what i meant in not so many words ^^

[twin dew]

Older ones showed up like USB keys etc.
But now they use different USB profile.

[glossy glacier]

sigh phones usb port's broken again. back to wireless charging

[sharp oasis]

My phone doesn't have wireless charging

[pure karma]

im honestly probably going to need some kind of stand for my laptop because these temps are like.... well bad....but like in a dangerous way

100C on CPU/RAM/GPU while gaming is not great especially with both fans blaring at 100%

raised it up a bit makes it atleast hit its cpu and gpu clocks albeit still bordering 100C ocasinally dropping down in the 90's

im moslty bringing this up because i started seeing graphical issues and screen tearing while doing work for school today and i ironed out that it wasent aplication specific and that it was being caused either at hardware or OS level and im tempted to put it on temp damage starting to happen

[jagged snow]

How do you break literally everything

You amaze me

You should get a job as the lowest common denominator in qa

Because you have a talent

[sharp oasis]

@jagged snow

If it isint one thing...

Primary gpu is okay. Secondary one seems to have issues. But simultaneously my phone experiences issues when the secondary gpu does this

How peculiar

Technically

Its actually the primary display adapter

[pure karma]

well technically i havent broken it but im the one that has to fix it

altho i probably wont because unless i can somehow make a stand myself out of metal,hope and dreams i dont have a 3D printer yet alone one that works on hand

[jagged snow]

That's really fun

Dual GPU makes me immediately think drivers

[sharp oasis]

As the rest of the linux community thought

[pure karma]

i should get a job in quality control

if it gets my aproval it goes out

the only thing that hasent had problems under my ownership is storage i think

i have nerver had storage problems

not even on the 8+ year old M.2 i have

[jagged snow]

Glad I'm not off my rocker

[jagged snow]

Didn't you drop a drive and break it?

[pure karma]

droped my 8TB HDD but dident break no

works fine

[sharp oasis]

Still how odd my phone malfunctioned at the same time

My phone is generally pretty stable

[pure karma]

only problem i have with it is that it dosent have smart so its pretty dumb for what i use it for

[sharp oasis]

I wonder if the bug caused the gpu to just spew EMF interference

[pure karma]

aka raw video storage/playback

i havent updated my gpu drivers in what feels like ages

but at the same time they work so i dont want to touch them

[tough owl]

Probably for the best

[tough owl]

the ssd I bought does have the MAP1602-A

@dire igloo

[winged valley]

magicz gpu

[languid gulch]

decided to give the new pc a test & fired up minecraft

[mental oriole]

Good luck

[dire igloo]

Dope

[soft bloom]

Reading book by Arushanov M L

He points out how application of greenhouse effect to atmosphere is erroneous because convection dominates in troposphere. Aka, unlike in literal greenhouse, where air is trapped, in troposphere hot air expands and rises while cold air shrinks and sinks.

There's lots of formulas and references to check out... Need time to digest

[soft bloom]

Why am I sure that Baldur linked Henry's law here but cannot find that message?..

[soft bloom]

So, he also mentions that Henry's law is at play with co2 and oceans, and should result in ocean absorbing co2 from troposphere as it's concentration rises.
Though, I think what currently happens is somehow the opposite...

[languid gulch]

can still make it hitch a bit, but not by much anymore 🤣 might have to do something like Conquest Reforged to really make it chug

[mental oriole]

Might have something to do with minecraft being 💩 optimized

[languid gulch]

gpu was stone cold, cpu was doing all the work

[mental oriole]

My message bus impl is being cache limited now

[verbal raft]

https://youtube.com/shorts/_ljUIgQ42fA?si=O65hqWuql-_xVd6c

We just lost one of 10 4090 TIs

[twin dew]

I didn't, someone else did IIRC.

[dire igloo]

cuz I was the one that brought it up and I merely mentioned it
#off-topic-tech message
#off-topic-tech message

[twin dew]

And if you cannot find something like that when you know what you want, how bad are you in general internet searches?

[dire igloo]

in a sense, air is trapped by gravity.
A greenhouse can also have drafts and circulation

[dire igloo]

And when you have a theory and can't find evidence, it's always a good idea to check for counter-evidence

[soft bloom]

oh boi
I was convinced you posted a link to it from wiki, so I was looking for a message with a link
I didn't say I didn't find any mention of Henry

[dire igloo]

Epica Dome C ice core data

[soft bloom]

btw, 'interesting' choice to overlay one line over another...

[twin dew]

To calibrate the two scales.

To each other.

To show that for current temperature, about 270ppm of CO2 would be normal, and we have 425ppm.

[soft bloom]

there's no date for 'present', or note on what was taken as 0
no explanation on methods of how temperature and co2 data was extracted from the source
no author or institution

[twin dew]

Epica Dome C:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Project_for_Ice_Coring_in_Antarctica

[soft bloom]

I mean, how would you percieve it if instead temperature line was on top of co2?
they both vary, relatively to co2 temp is both up and down
resolution of single pixel is thousands of years which is quite a margin
so outside of correlation, that, as you pointed out, breaks in undefined 'present', it conveys nothing

also I really have hard time believing that there's linear relationship between the two. but it can be.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Co2-temperature-plot.png
(i guess now we just post picture from wiki)

for example here, there's more resolution, and you can spot how changes in temperature lead changes in CO2
(careful, X axis is the other way here)

z normalization makes much more sense

[dire igloo]

It's historical data with a single reference to present data

You gotta learn to take data for what it is

[soft bloom]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troposphere
Temperature, altitude, adiabatic process

[dire igloo]

Am I missing something or are the blue lines (CO2) more consistently before the red ones (temp)?

[twin dew]

Present on left.

[soft bloom]

I know enough about how easy it is to misrepresent the data (be it intentionally or not) by the way it's visualized
so definition of 0T and present are important

[soft bloom]

so what does it convey in your udnerstanding? (or rather, what argument did you want to provide)

[twin dew]

But for most of those they are pretty closely aligned.
It is just those two spikes at 250k and 340k that are delayed for CO2.

[dire igloo]

If you want to know, you can look at the source of the data which I named.

I suspect that the atmospheric CO2 data is extracted from the amount of CO2 dissolved in the ice and that the temperature is calculated from the ice density (how much of the ice is or isn't melted)

[dire igloo]

I wanted to show you that there is a direct correlation between the two measurements and that over the last 150 or smth years humanity has caused one of the two to far exceed historical levels

[dire igloo]

Ahhhhh

[soft bloom]

I mean, I can ofcourse do image search to find the paper that produced it
just that with indirect measurement, the way it was measured is important
I wouldn't ask this if it was 'simple' atmospehre temperature readings from present
not like I am dismissing it... just not much info conveyed by just that picture

[soft bloom]

I wasn't arguming with correlation

especially at this accuracy (or lack of it, considering reoslution on time scale)

[twin dew]

Because exact "present" in those ice cores is not reliable anyways, and is in past.
If it is years, tens of years, hundreds of years in the past doesn't really matter.

As it isn't thousands or tens of thousands years in the past.

[soft bloom]

then how do you put 0T anywhere?..
once again, Z-norm just makes muuuch more sense

[dire igloo]

Interesting that the upwards spikes around 240k and 320k years ago have such a strong separation but the ones 120k and 420k years ago are near perfect matches

[twin dew]

And the point was to show that there is strong correlation.
And that current CO2 levels are way above anything before.

[soft bloom]

because Earth's isn't a tiny greenhouse, I guess

[dire igloo]

It's a screenshot of a video, I know that the resolution is lackluster

[dire igloo]

Almost as if the term greenhouse is to give a simplified understanding for a far more complex system

[soft bloom]

it's posted on wiki in pretty much same quality

[dire igloo]

After all, a greenhouse traps heat with glass instead of gases and develops a temp difference of tens of degrees over merely a few days rather than tenths of degrees over dozens of years

[twin dew]

And the point of that Wiki link was to provide you the source of the data, so you can track the research on that data and that data itself yourself.

Not to act as definite source.

Just to show what that EPICA Dome C meant.

[soft bloom]

A parcel of air rises and expands because of the lower atmospheric pressure at high altitudes. The expansion of the air parcel pushes outwards against the surrounding air, and transfers energy (as work) from the parcel of air to the atmosphere. Transferring energy to a parcel of air by way of heat is a slow and inefficient exchange of energy with the environment, which is an adiabatic process (no energy transfer by way of heat). As the rising parcel of air loses energy while it acts upon the surrounding atmosphere, no heat energy is transferred from the atmosphere to the air parcel to compensate for the heat loss. The parcel of air loses energy as it reaches greater altitude, which is manifested as a decrease in the temperature of the air mass. Analogously, the reverse process occurs within a cold parcel of air that is being compressed and is sinking to the planetary surface.
wiki references from Danielson W, Levin J, Abrams E (2003). Meteorology. McGraw Hill.

[dire igloo]

btw, many climate change sceptics/deniers also combat atmospheric temp readings - because the most commonly referenced ones are from Hawaii, basically in the direct vicinity of a volcano

[twin dew]

And have you noted that doesn't really work on atmosphere level?