off-topic-tech

[wanton orchid]

the first point you just experienced : all different scope variable of same names simultaneously exists at all time

[soft bloom]

var1 = 0
var2 = 1
ambiguous = 5

def func():
    print(f"{var1=}")
    
    ambiguous = var1
    print(f"{var1=} {ambiguous=}")
    
    print("whatever")
    
    var2 = ambiguous
    print(f"{var1=} {ambiguous=}")
    
func()
print(f"{var1=} {var2=} {ambiguous=}")

prints

var1=0
var1=0 ambiguous=0
whatever
var1=0 ambiguous=0
var1=0 var2=1 ambiguous=5

[wanton orchid]

tell me when you went through my last messages

[soft bloom]

i did. i'm thinking

[wanton orchid]

I will not get yet into the fuckery of defining functions inside loops
but it could become an exercise

[soft bloom]

I think the thing is that I was so used to writing in a way where global scope is always constant/immutable, or at least some object which has attrs that are modified, and therefore names can clash a bit (especially in arguments), but there's never like an attempt to declare/define/assign/whichever a var in inner scope that repeats (collides) with anything from outer scope.
which lead to this behaviour explained above simply being unused & unexplored.

[soft bloom]

I think I avoided that.
but i treat myself with func within func just because it looks cleaner

[soft bloom]

and tbh that lead to even forgetting that aside from NameError there's also UnboundLocalError

[wanton orchid]

that specific thing is better avoided, right because it is extremely error prone, but is a good exercise about scopes
if you can clear mind get it, then you are quiet safe in usual context

[wanton orchid]

I mean, you can only come accross every error code through experience, and new usecases
it's not a goal to "know" all the error codes
but here it is important to understand what's happening because understanding scope is very important and have effects

[soft bloom]

what's the purpose of it?
I mean, can't you make whatever depends on loop's iteration and arg for function?

needs example (perhaps a wrong one)

[wooden vessel]

mainly, you can reach variables in the outer function's scope.

[wanton orchid]

I dont get the second part of your sentence, there are multiple things that could match that kind of concept
but purpose of functions inside a loop would be for having pseudo static data for these function, and have different built in behavior, the loop "function" definition would work as kind of a template
it can also be used to bind objects each its function, and they work independently without having conflicting global scopes or the like

ngl I feel kinda like a bot when saying stuff like "the second part of your sentence could not be interpreted", or something

[wanton orchid]

I mean that's a bit what decorators are doing

anyway that's drifting off the original topic

[wanton orchid]

did you fully get the multiple ambiguous scopes named variables ?

[soft bloom]

Yeah, so you can either make a factory of funcs where you solve scope with argument: nice and explicit
Or make func objects under loop with implicit sharing of variables from loop's scope

[soft bloom]

I will have to re-evaluate some code under new-ish angle

[wanton orchid]

we havent finished yet

now that you have better sight/awareness of variable definition actually (and not only assignement)
and their respective scopes
how can you actually access/write them in their existing scope without ambiguity, and without redefining them instead ?

[soft bloom]

And it's half past 1 am so I am not sure if i can effectively do that

[wanton orchid]

we close to the end but not there yet

? maybe you just went to bed then

the answer : as it would always be ambiguous otherwise
you make it explicit : you tell it to python / other reader

var1 = 5
not_ambiguous = 2

def anything():
  the_scope_these_are_in_actually var1, var2, not_ambiguous
  var1 = not_ambiguous
  var2 = var1
  not_ambiguous = 7
anything()

print(var1,var2,not_ambiguous)
```here it's `global` so you can set that (instead of the example placholder statement)

then these will never be local in the scope of the specific function

[soft bloom]

nonlocal/global
But as I was saying before: for me that's a smell of something being wrong

In the design, I mean

[wanton orchid]

it's not in this context
you want to modify a global variable, then you join it

only then you can ask yourself if modifying global variable is bad or not

[soft bloom]

I almost did fall asleep tbh

[wanton orchid]

tbh I've fucked sleep schedule, I assumed you may be canadian or something for instance

[soft bloom]

Also, last time I even tried something with nonlocal it made things more broken so I just avoid anything like that (special words)

[soft bloom]

Half past 1 am is pretty definitive about being bedtime 🙂
And i try to fix the schedule... Sort off

[wanton orchid]

python in a way does not make this easy, because usual scopes are implicit, and visually not bounded, so you need to know : function have their own scope
that's almost anything you need to know, everything else is intuitive as nested functions.. have nested scopes

[soft bloom]

Well, I remember reading linter warnings being pretty explicit about nonlocal nad global being a smell.

But some context asks for such behaviour, and simpler answer can be just that.

Not sure if hack with item access (dict/list) is a better answer

[wanton orchid]

it's not
mutable object can be a hell of its own

this_is_a_gloabl_counter_it_will_change is much more safe

[soft bloom]

Well, yes
The initial code that led to the convo comes from simple need to increment counter
From the point of designing that program - func shouldn't try to mess with scope and define new variable of inner scope but instead work without outsr scope's variable

[wanton orchid]

tldr : a global counter must be that : global and a counter

[soft bloom]

It really was nonlocal

[wanton orchid]

yep

my goal is, now you see well : why it complained, how it complained, what you wanted to do, and how to actually do it

and the answer was you actually wanted the inner function to increment the outer counter

[soft bloom]

That's why i kinda like oop: there I would just take a counter obj and be happy 🙂

[soft bloom]

Not a "oh, now i see that it wasn't local"
I meant s clarification that it never was meant to be global, just from the scope of outer function.
The confusion as from poor error message (yep I think it lacks info) and from the expected logical behavior (design perspective; I planned it as counter_from_outer_cope.increment() )

Thank you

[wanton orchid]

I meant "yep" as in yep it is only logical to use nonlocal local keyword because it is nonlocal

[wanton orchid]

you can do that anyway

without using nonlocal statement

it does not change the logic though

class OutIncrement:
    def __init__(s):
        s.counter = 0
    def increment(s):
        s.counter += 1

    def get(s):
        return s.counter

work = OutIncrement()

def any():
    work.increment()

any()
any()
print(work.get())```

having changing variable as object attribute does not magically guards against misleadingly modifiying them on the fly elsewhere

[soft bloom]

It is way more explicit and doesn't mess with scope

[soft bloom]

There's no elsewhere:)
The thing rose from

def compute_on_df():
    def compute_on_row_wrapper():
        counter = 0
        def compute_on_row(row):
                counter+= 1

    df.apply(compute_on_row_wrapper())

[wanton orchid]

it does mess with the scope the exact same way, it you simply dont have error because no syntax ambiguity
and using nonlocal would still also have it "no elsewhere"

[narrow zenith]

slight cpu bottleneck

[languid gulch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L_psS1MVk8

LTT doing their best to ignore GN's killshot on how shitty MSI is

[twin dew]

When you only care about the money you get paid.

Which has been Linuses motto for all his career.

[languid gulch]

and corsair ram to go along with it 🤣

[twin dew]

Also, it isn't all MSI...
When it has AMD or Intel CPU, Corsair RAM etc. 😉

[languid gulch]

yea but still, ew

[twin dew]

Point was he is even lying in the video title 😜

[languid gulch]

after seeing how GN showed MSI cutting corners to deliberately cook their GPUs to die just outside warranty, i'll never buy anything from them

i'm even going to be moving away from using corsair ram at this point

[twin dew]

Shittiest of the RAM makers basically.
For very long time.

[languid gulch]

i've been using their low profile vengeance, and it's fine if you don't count how 2 out of 8 i've bought have failed out of the box

[twin dew]

In how they hide specs and use different dies on same code product etc.

[languid gulch]

i recently bought 3 of their fans, then immediately returned them when i realized that they were proprietary horseshit connections, with that info hidden in one location in size 3 font

[twin dew]

Only specifying the die on the actual packaging with separate code.
So before you have the package in hand, you cannot know what you are getting.

[languid gulch]

yea, i grabbed it cuz i was cheap & locally available in about 10 minutes

was also covid times

i do keep learning what not to buy 🤣

i'm mildly tempted to buy thermalright's new dirt cheap AIO for my next build

how the fuck is that $55

[soft bloom]

Well, it just works with outer scope without attempting to do anything in inner one, that's what i meant. There's no attempt to have counter in both scopes.

[tribal kraken]

Corsair HX1200i PSU been good to me, also the magnetic bearing ML series fans just keep running silent for years and years. Will see how the 96GB 6400MT/S RAM kit does.

[twin dew]

That "magnetic" is just marketing on those.
There is just centering magnet for the axle, like with many other makers too.
Just normal hydrodynamic sleeve bearing with magnetic centering assist for the axle for startup and stopping.

Nothing to do with "real" magnetic bearings.

[tribal kraken]

Could be, never dissambled one because every one I bought is still running. 800rpm 24/7 😄

They were cheap in without RGB in twin packs

8pcs. Here

[verbal raft]

Im waiting to see that 4060 turn into a 4050..

[soft bloom]

how loud are they ?

[tribal kraken]

Upto 1100rpm I cant hear them. 100% PWM they make a lot of noise and move lot of air if needed... But as that is my 12900K non overclocked headless server without GPU, so the water stays really cool in that loop. Its in a stairway (can be low as +5° in winter), so run them minimun PWM at about 800rpm..

My UPS and batteries are there too, the UPS fan is noisy as hell, especially when 4090 puts load on it 😄

Maybe this gives better idea of noise levels

[soft bloom]

pretty nice

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQqtsm-bBRU
The Topoly
really a very nice proof & demonstration

[verbal raft]

I guess it turned into a 3060

[narrow folio]

I think that's still impressive,
for many things this is enough power.
guess we will have to wait a few generations to really see 4070 performance from an iGPU

[willow pike]

i believe we will see it in an affordable steam console

[narrow folio]

CES should bring some light to the Z2 series. Probably will be the powerhouse for most of the next gen handhelds

[twin dew]

And another Hong Kong flagged container ship, Xin Xin Tian 2, seems to have cut underwater power cable between Finland and Estonia today...

Was right over it when it failed.

[verbal raft]

its gonna be fater than my PC😭

[rustic panther]

hey, maybe this'll get nvidia to stop asking 1500 for a 5080

[verbal raft]

i'm thinking about selling my RX 6600 how much do you all think its worth?

[rustic panther]

Who am I kidding, they'll probably pull out of consumer products before that :^)

[wanton orchid]

smh
YOU HAVE
the counter
in BOTH SCOPE
already
it's just the ACCESS IS UNAMBIGUOUS (for python interpreter)

check how you are misleading yourself already with this
just write what you're doing with 'nonlocal' and done
exact same mechanism
no work around

[cyan crescent]

I am trying to get into my bios settings but every time j try to enter the bios on boot, it just kinda freezes but when i leave it alone, it will enter windows 10 just fine.

[wanton orchid]

how much time are you waiting when it "freezes"

Also there is a button in windows to restart to bios
go to "advanced restart" under "recovery tools" and the like

[cyan crescent]

Tried that too. Ive waited like 10min.

Once it gets here when trying to get to bios, it freezes

[soft bloom]

I asked chatgpt to show me how i can use astropy to compute day longevity from real observations
It spit out the code that adds 86400 to the list, every time
Nice

[soft bloom]

You talking about the code i wrote few messages back, right? With +=
I was talking about your code, where the counter is from outer scope and there's no counter defined in inner scope. No second object assigned to "counter" from inner scope, that isn't actually from outer scope.

[wanton orchid]

I'm talking about what you are talking here

[soft bloom]

Which is your code.
I won't consider that messing with scope

[wanton orchid]

what code specifically, it does not match your earlier messages

I was the one responding to you originally

you're talking about "+=" then say "in your code" but there is no that in my code because I was responding to a message not using that

I said :

• if you wanted to use 'counter.increment()' you could have from the start and python wouldn't have complained, and I provided example
• Yet pointed it does not change the behavior you get from using 'nonlocal' and incrementing directly, that you try to workaround for mysterious reasons

stop talking about "this" "your/my code" "earlier" "the thing" (what thing ?)
define what you are talking about please
saying "earlier" is not going to cut it
there are thousands messages upthere

I link specific messages
respond to that directly
then you respond to it
but somehow talking about something else instead
what are you actually talking about

you can think as you talk
but not talk as you think

[soft bloom]

+= is me asking if you talking about my message with it.

[soft bloom]

I was talking about this your msg/code
Hence "no messing with scope" and being explicit

[soft bloom]

I thought you thought I was saying that about this msg (replied to)

In my head everything seems fine

[soft bloom]

Especially this all correct, no contradictions.

That (your, with oop) example has implicit behaviour of using nonlocal

And I do have mysterious reasons to not explicitly use nonlocal 🙂

[wanton orchid]

ok, well then I don't know where the confusion came from

so let's get it back from start now that you have all the basics

problem += 1
```is equivalent to
```python
problem = problem +1
```is equivalent to
```python
var = problem
problem = var +1
```which we've seen is problematic unless ambiguity is removed
and python know that all this is equivalent
so you need
```python
nonlocal problem
problem += 1
``` and then it all make sense and does not complain

[soft bloom]

Wait...
If I was to use arg with default set
Then calling method on object would work
But +=1 on int - wouldn't?..

[wanton orchid]

what ? it has nothing to do with arguments

[soft bloom]

Confusion came from simply weird order of messages without reply
And then the fact that my understanding wasn't clearly explained which definitely led to confusion on your aprt

[soft bloom]

It's a thought of what if different approach
And you show that it would be like that since I shouldn't associate +=1 with .increment()

[wanton orchid]

I don't get what you mean by "associate" here

there are multiple different associations possible
some good some bad

scope wise you can associate the two
but then : one is a workaround/implicit, one is explicit/direct

[wanton orchid]

oh wait you meant :

increment(problem)
```would work ?
then : yes, that's how `problem.increment()` works

except if problem is not a container you have nothing to update

container as in : set list dict object
a mutable thing

[soft bloom]

How bad is that OpenAi partners with millitary?

[verbal raft]

https://tenor.com/view/terminator-gif-7646648

[cyan crescent]

How long does western digital take to ship directly from their website?

[soft bloom]

hmmmm
more like

def wrapper():
    real_counter = 0
    def func(internal_counter = real_counter):
        internal_counter += 1
        print(internal_counter)
    return func
f = wrapper()
f()
f()

[wanton orchid]

does not work

[soft bloom]

which ofcourse doesn't really increment.
but works when it's list/dict. which is just more complicated than wthout an arg, yet more explicit

[wanton orchid]

it's not more explicit

it's not an arg

it's a non provided arg, which then use default which is from wrapper

it is both non explicit and misleading as if the arg is ever provided it may fuck it

[soft bloom]

more explicit about where counter comes from, then

def wrapper():
    counter = [0, ]
    def func():
        counter[0] += 1
        print(counter)
    return func
f = wrapper()
f()
f()

But I agree that both a worse than just nonlocal

[wanton orchid]

which comes closer to nonlocal, utimately being nonlocal

I mean, here nonlocal is not only the better alternative, but also the final alternative, in the it follows the same logic but dropping works around, enhancing it

it's not a tradeoff

[soft bloom]

btw, actually, there's another inner function... internals of which are of no interest - just it might have some arguments
and now I just trying to decide which is better - nonlocal or the thing that chatgpt suggested with assigning an attr to a func object 🙂

despite doing weird things with metaclasses and writing a couple decorators, I don't think I am fond of idea to work with func's attributes, especially extending them

[wanton orchid]

let me try to write this with the formatting of a language I'm defining (yes, as in I'm the creator of that language)
because I'm curious about it naturally making it more obvious that it's only steps back

def wrapper():
    real_counter = 0
    def func (internal_counter):
        internal_counter ?= real_counter
        internal_counter += 1
        print(internal_counter)
    return func
f = wrapper()
f()
f()
``` I'm happy it's more explicit indeed, and less error prone

(ps: def and print keywords are different, but it's not useful to show that, and my work is not published
pps: also I thought more stuff may move around initially, but in the end it really looks the same for simple code like that)

[wanton orchid]

imo the question can be asnwered relatively easily :
why attribute ?
- it can be accessed externally, and reseted
- it is tied to the wrapper function
why nonlocal ?
- it is contained inside the wrapper context, is not externally visible
- it is tied to the wrapper function anyway

discord markdown behavior with - is still completly broken

it's annoying

[soft bloom]

--what does minus do?--

• a list
• ?

[sterile plinth]

average aliexpress review 😂

yall how many drives do you have

am i crazy for needing a 2nd 1TB ssd

i feel i never have enough space

[viral glacier]

i have a 256gb laptop with like 5 gb of freespace if i have that much so i'm basically doing the hell cycle of uploading images to lightroom editing copying to nas deleting from adobe cloud you are defo not crazy i would give anything for a bigger ssd😂

[gilded helm]

I'm curious how many laptops in 2025 will still start at 500GB and try to rip you off for the upgrade to 1TB.

[sterile plinth]

100% my biggest investment will be buying a n100 mini PC to use as a homeserver

ill save HUNDREDS of gigabytes of space

if i can just upload all my videos and photos and clips to my home server and keep them there

[viral glacier]

i have it like that but i don't have enough space on my laptop to copy them off of my sd card😆

[sterile plinth]

I meant through ssh

linux server, not a NAS (though it should also support it)
for windows you can use openSSH

omg I can also have kodi too I cant wait for it to arrive

[soft bloom]

oh know where that review is from. aka location

I accept non-monetary bets for if it's possible to recreate the plot of day-longevity change using astropy's default/built-in WGS84 Earth's model and de440 ephemeris
real question is if it has enough precision
I am fairly certain it will have real observations embedded
but also question of computations required to do that for at least 5 years straight

I don't remember where was the thread about letter-based grades
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/O39OHpE6c4c
But this principle ha extreme relevance to marketing and games
Though I think in fashion and art we can see some periods of degrading to "oh, i am so different from everyone else by not attracting attention please look at me"
kinda like apple looking quite modest relative gaming rgb laptops (which is like comparing oranges to apples, yes)

ok that preview title is funny
it's a video from linguist

I think linguistics is a hidden gem of science

[pure karma]

is there a way to stop suround being forced on when 3 of the same monitors are plugged in or no?

[languid gulch]

placing bets on the 5050 being a 4gb card

[narrow zenith]

nah 8gb (which still isnt enough)

[wanton orchid]

remember that gtx1080ti as 11GB
and around same performance

[pure karma]

and 5060 leaked at 8GB so yea...

[languid gulch]

should really start pushing memes comparing nvidia to intel's "4 cores is plenty" horseshit

[pure karma]

i actually thing that deadzone of evolution was a good thing because it forced optimisation even if it just meant mroe money for less work

[languid gulch]

i find FSR/DLSS to be mostly hot garbage

[pure karma]

because it is

its good for a battery powered product or something with a small screen so mobile devices... but anything else its just not good

[sharp oasis]

Fsr can be decent at least at native AA

I prefer Xess over all three

Intels scaler is pretty nice

[pure karma]

neither will be because they are all TAA

[sharp oasis]

Warthunder TAA does not look the same as fsr Native AA

So

TAA looks like somone smudged vasiline all over my screen

Fsr AA at least still looks semi sharp

I'm still waiting for my 6900XT ocf.

Prolly gonna be waiting till February

[languid gulch]

go for 6950

[sharp oasis]

Atp.

[sharp oasis]

Already bought 6900XT

[languid gulch]

ah

[sharp oasis]

Over two months ago.

[languid gulch]

ouchie

[sharp oasis]

Yeah Canada post strike threw a wrench in my plans.

[languid gulch]

i feel kinda bad having a 6600XT red dragon as my emergency backup

[sharp oasis]

My backup will now be a 6700XT Tuf when ever that 6900XT arrives

[languid gulch]

yea, the 8gb vram isn't enough for my 1440UW

[sharp oasis]

12gb is hardly enough for my 1440p lol

[pure karma]

yea same here

im seeing VRAM ussage as high as like 18GB

[languid gulch]

oh i'll cap 16gb

[sharp oasis]

I should be fine at 16gb tho

[pure karma]

considering giving cyberpunk a go for the memes seeing how its on sale

[sharp oasis]

It's decent ig.

Played it alot.

[languid gulch]

how are the jiggle physics?

[sharp oasis]

Replayability kinda suffers after like the 4th playthru

[pure karma]

hows the story? i watched a bit of gameplay back when it came out ish and it felt a bit all over

[sharp oasis]

Story is decent

I liked it.

The DLC is actually very very good

Much worth it.

[pure karma]

from the gameplay i saw the story kinda felt zelda style where you have no clue what your doing during any of it but in the end it just somehow works out

[sharp oasis]

I don't really know I haven't played in a while lately

[soft bloom]

somehow, i am 21 hours not sleeping, 8 am, and I don't feel tired, but I feel body being tired. does it make sense?

[pure karma]

yea thats about how i feel rn lol

altho im somehow only at 12Hours even tho its 2am

[narrow zenith]

yeah i got a 7900XTX a couple weeks ago, thankfully through amazon so it didnt get held up

my cpu cooler got 'lost in shipping' tho and aliexpress gave me a refund lol

[soft bloom]

I created monster

I feel like killinz its parent was a mistake

[twin dew]

Russian AA-missile battery shot down Azerbaijan operated Embraer E-190 passanger jet, probably thinking it was Ukrainian drone...
Pilots almost completed emergency landing after with just differential engine thrust, after missile shrapnel to tail severed all three hydraulic systems lines.

[verbal raft]

What game you playing?

[pure karma]

for that it was beamNG but most my games are using 10GB+ now at there peaks

[tribal kraken]

After Christmas sales got me. New NVMEs to replace the dead Samsung 970 EVO 500GB

And plan-b if the Bayerndynamic headset cable (volume potentiometer) fails again

[languid gulch]

gonna be interesting to see how the new 3D vcache stuffed under the cores will work with the new CPUs

[sterile plinth]

guys is using USB3.1 instead of sata for hdd remote storage considered bad

i got a new mini PC which is awesome value for money and super low wattage, perfect for a server. But it only has usb 3.1, which i know is mroe taxing for the cpu

it doesnt really matter does it

[twin dew]

Good USB3 to SATA chip can do 200-300MB/s over UASP.
But for Linux use, you need to find the right one, as lot of the older chips are just broken.

And for TRIM support, goes even harder as many of the firmware versions don't support TRIM, even for the good chips.

[glossy glacier]

USB 3.1 is 5Gbps, SATA3 is 6Gbps. For HDDs fine, for SSDs you loose some performance. 3,5" HDDs need additional power beyond the one provided by the port, so use a powered Adapter.
USB-SATA works generally fine, some protocol features may be not present

[twin dew]

Needs that UASP support, over the older much more stupid USB block transfer protocol.

[tribal kraken]

2min to access m.2 slots without draining the loop

[languid gulch]

but also jesus christ what a mess

[tribal kraken]

Theres couple extra cables from the sim racing rig yes 🤣

[languid gulch]

where's the rad at?

i see the passthru

[tribal kraken]

Mora360 right next to wall behind there. I have some copper piping ready to move it next room in the summer when I dont want heat in the room

[languid gulch]

just tie it into your fridge 😛

freon-cooled loop 🤣

[tribal kraken]

All fun until condensation problems

[languid gulch]

i've been tempted to go to a junkyard and hunt down a corolla radiator

[tribal kraken]

Yeah. Need one from older car for copper loops. Newer tend to have aluminum with plastic ends

[languid gulch]

good point

shoulda kept the one from my junker pickup 🤣

the big present i got this year was weathertech floor liners for my car, a noticeable improvement

tho the neat present i got was a coin made out of metal from the Apollo Launch Tower

[visual tree]

No, I don't want manhattan, delock or roline usb 3.2 cables... I don't really trust those brands

It's hard finding a local store here that sells anker cables

[twin dew]

DeLock products have been good in my use and eyes in general.

[visual tree]

Guess I treated DeLock harshly then 😅 Haven't heard much about them so I assumed they were one of those cheap brands

Since the market is overloaded with those unfamiliar usb brands

There is also ugreen too. Don't have any of their cables so I don't know how good they actually are

[twin dew]

They are cheap end, but spec filling cheap brand.
Haven't got any of their USB cables, but lot of other products over the years.
And all have worked just fine.

[visual tree]

Found this cable for €14,46 in a local store. Guess it will do:

[twin dew]

That seems to be just USB 2.0 + PD

Yup, maxing at 480Mbps, so USB 2.0 only.

So if you want it for just charging, and phone data transfers on phone that only has USB 2.0 (most of them), then that is fine.

For anything that wants the high-speed pairs, that is no-go.

[visual tree]

Damn, I shouldn't trust webshops anymore. They specified it's 3.2 in the specs....

[twin dew]

Which covers that XD

[visual tree]

I need at least 3.2 gen 1 cable

[twin dew]

So you need to find one that at least specs the 5Gbps speed.

[visual tree]

If you type "usb 3.2 cable" into amazon.de, almost all brands are unknown except ugreen lol

[twin dew]

Because the real stuff isn't marketed as 3.2

But by the speed.

5Gbps, 10Gbps etc.

[visual tree]

Yeah, usb standards and numbering are confusing me tbh

[twin dew]

USB 3 gen 1: 5Gpbs, USB 3 Gen 2: 10Gpbs, USB 3 Gen 2x2: 20 Gbps, USB4/Thunderbolt 3: 40Gbps.

Gen 1 was added in USB 3.0, Gen 2 in USB 3.1, Gen 2x2 in USB 3.2.

[visual tree]

Too bad all stores I've visited filter products by USB version numbering instead of speed

So they only add the confusion

[twin dew]

DeLock USB-C - USB-C cables. with max powers and speeds already in the names:
https://www.delock.com/produkte/G_1764_USB-Type-C--male---USB-Type-C--male.html

[visual tree]

And I thought HDMI versions were confusing lol

This is even worse

[twin dew]

That the cheap maker actually specs what the cable can do is one of the tells of one delivering usable stuff.

So find the suitable item numbers, and try to find one of those.

[twin dew]

@visual tree So any luck with that method?
For example DeLOCK 83661, 1m 10Gbps 3A PD cable is 10-15e in Finland.

Also the 60W is same as 3A and 100W is same as 5A for that PD E-marker.

[visual tree]

This should be enough for me but I can't fnd it in local stores: www.delock.com/produkt/80038/merkmale.html?g=1764

[twin dew]

Because angled connectors are more specialist.
83668 is the 3A straight variant, 85527 is the 5A straight variant, both 5Gbps with 2m length.

All the shorter ones are specced for 10Gbps, as the same cable at that shorter length can fill that spec, while 2m needs better cable.

But often the "lowest" spec isn't the cheapest anymore.

Because often the low spec ones are outgoing stuff that has been replaced.

So if the shops allow to limit by manufacturer, try with that and then sort by price, in right general category?

[visual tree]

To be specific, I am planning on getting meta quest 3 (I could go with valve index but I am saving money for some home construction projects 😅 ) and I need a usb that can deliver a minimum of 5 Gbps

And I am not dumb enough to waste money on this when I can find much cheaper cables that have the same specs:

This is just pure money grab

[twin dew]

That is expensive as it is active fiber optic cable.

[visual tree]

Yeah, people on the internet mention not to waste money on it and cables like anker will be more than enough for a much cheaper price

*or delock

[twin dew]

Yeah, because of the 5m length.

But ok, that explains the right angle being good thing.

So 5Gbps, 3A e-marker required, with longer being better.

[visual tree]

3 meters should be enough for me since the room is small

If only my front pc usb ports were usb-c and supported 5 gbit/s, I could go with 1.8 meters

[twin dew]

That 2m right-angle one:
https://www.reichelt.com/de/en/shop/product/usb_3_0_cable_c_male_angled_left_right_4k_60_hz_2_m-355748

Much more expensive active 3m cable:
https://www.reichelt.com/de/en/shop/product/active_usb_3_1_cable_c_plug_angled_plug_3_m-394196
Cannot find the 5m version for sale.

5m one for 60e: https://www.jacob.de/produkte/delock-aktives-usb-81196-artnr-100532181.html

[sterile plinth]

when you say "good" how much money we talking about

shouldnt be more than 3 euro on ali i hope

[twin dew]

And in 2m straight ones: 83668, 85527, 80091

[willow pike]

3 meters is the maximum length for USB3 without any active repeaters

[sterile plinth]

www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005792992308.html

like, im not really sure whats good for a cable, wouldnt this work?

[twin dew]

No idea, as they don't tell what controller chip it uses.

[willow pike]

for the quest you really do need those expensive cables

with 3 meters you'll quickly get tangled up in yourself

there are cheaper non-repeating super long USB3 5GBit/s on Amazon but those are spec breaking and will probably not work well

[twin dew]

Couldn't find any that were even 3m from reputable brands quickly, in USB-C - USB-C, only some USB-A - USB-C ones.

And is that Quests connection just USB, or does it use DisplayPort?
Probably just USB, if it is supposed to work in any USB-C port.

Seems to even support USB-A -> USB-C, just recommendation for C-C, probably for power delivery reasons, -C ports have higher max current limits over USB-A 3 ports.

[visual tree]

Found one in the store (although it's not angled): www.delock.com/produkt/83668/merkmale.html

[twin dew]

Yeah, just depends on the Quest end if that matters or not.

[visual tree]

Totally forgot usb 3.0 supports 5 gbit/s so I can still use the front pc case ports 😅

[twin dew]

Probably just about not sticking downwards, but backwards.

[willow pike]

pure USB, the display is connected using a video stream, probably H265

[visual tree]

They are connected to a usb 3.2 motherboard header btw

[willow pike]

3.2 could still be 5GBit

[visual tree]

5 gbit/s is enough afaik when it comes to meta quest 3

[willow pike]

or 10, or 10, or 20!

[twin dew]

There are three MB header types, the old dual 2.0 one, then dual USB3 5Gbps one, and then the new single-connector one for native USB-C.

[visual tree]

So, don't need to worry if it's 5 gbit/s or more 😅

[willow pike]

displayport 2.0 in 120/40 mode would be required to connect the quest's display losslessly and getting that over a 10m cable would be hideously expensive

[visual tree]

Motherboard has 3.2 gen 2 header (10 gbit/s) and usb 3.0 front pc ports are connected to it which means the ports are a bottleneck but I still get 5 gbit/s

[twin dew]

DisplayLink or some proprietary solution?

Ok, in a way DisplayLink is also proprietary.

[willow pike]

facebook would never use other people's proprietary shit

it's literally just like using an elgato or a webcam

an encoded video stream

[twin dew]

Yeah, seems to use standard USB Video Class and USB Audio Class transport, just with the Quest as recepient.

Just hadn't even thought about using that as output from a computer.

Those DisplayLink solutions are/were the gold standard for attaching monitors to USB-ports for additional monitors over what native output capability was.

[willow pike]

simple solutions are always best

you'll probably see encoding artefacts during rapid motion on the quest

[visual tree]

Btw Baldur, better get a subsea cable trencher and start laying new fiber cables 😛

Although that would be expensive and you need to dig at least 1 meter if you want to protect the cables from sea anchors

[twin dew]

Lot of cost for very little benefit, except when someone is doing it intentionally.

In this case Russia might have also cut three fiber optic cables during the latest run too.

[visual tree]

Yeah, not sure how we could protect them besides trenching or changing routes

Another option would be to run fiber from finland to sweden and then from sweden to rest of europe but that would also be expensive

[twin dew]

Those runs exist.

[visual tree]

And stop using undersea fiber where there is a risk of sabotage

[twin dew]

Runs between Sweden and Finland are much older thing, even underwater ones, than anything from Finland to Estonia or Germany.

[visual tree]

I mean, you probably need additional cables for extra capacity since the undersea ones got damaged

[twin dew]

The data cables are just annoyance.
That halving of power transfer capacity to Estonia will hurt the three baltic states until fixed.

[visual tree]

It's a shame we need to think of new fiber routes because of sabotage these days...

[twin dew]

Well, actually responding to the sabotage would make it happen much less...
But because no western country has actually officially pointed at Russia as the source...

For any of the three cases over the last few years.

Everyone knows it is Russia, and that they are officially done hit jobs.
No-one says it officially.

And that just causes Putin to authorize more of them to happen.

[empty tiger]

Does save files save in the steam cloud?

[low scaffold]

Hello there fellow Pioneer!
You're currently chatting in off-topic channels.

Please note, the entire off-topic category is reserved for not Satisfactory related chattery. To comply with your FICSIT Inc. contract, please make use of the appropriate channels in the Satisfactory category. Thank you!

Command executed by: baldurfi

[empty tiger]

Or do I need to manually carry over save files between computers?

[twin dew]

The hurt is already in progress:
https://www.svk.se/en/national-grid/the-control-room/

Electricity in Finland costs now 3e/MWh, and 80e/MWh in Baltics.

12h ago it was 13e and 36e IIRC (production price bids are done 24+h in advance)

And just jumped to 85e in Baltics as hour changed.

[visual tree]

Only thing I can think of is banning ships from dropping anchors near areas where fiber is laid but that would be pointless since there is nobody to monitor ships

and you can't know what they are doing exactly

[twin dew]

Well, normally ships don't drop anchors while they are moving...

Most of fiber damage is from bottom trawling, not anchors.

Legit sea cable damage when the damage wasn't intentional.

[visual tree]

Last time I read, some chinese tanker dragged anchor for 160 km in order to damage the fiber on purpose somewhere in the swedish waters

[twin dew]

That was the second hit, with one fiber cable between Finland and Germany cut, then another between Sweden and Lithuania, with the anchor raised between the hits.
That ship is still detained in Danish waters

Repeated in last few days to cut HVDC power cable and three fiber cables between Finland and Estonia.
And that ship is now detained by Finland.

And year or two ago the first one, where gas pipeline and couple of fiber cables were cut.

New New Polar bear for the first, Hong Kong registered, but that Hong Kong company was owned by Russians.

Second ship changed routings completely in last half a year, switching to visiting Russia exclusively, again probably bough out by Russians.
And again Hong Kong owned and registered ship for this third run.

Leaving St. Petersburg for Suez Canal.

And that second ship was being escorted by Russian navy ship part of the way.

[visual tree]

That sounds familiar since someone cut fiber cables in the red sea at the beggining of 2024

Could have been someone else though since a lot of ships pass through suez canal

[sterile plinth]

what are some reputable controllers to look out for?

[twin dew]

Basically for 5Gbps USB-SATA controllers, only ASM1053 and ASM1153 work with UAS/UASP under Linux.
Rest are blacklisted to only use BOT, which is slower, needs lot of CPU and doesn't support SMART etc. direct drive access.
All the newer 10Gbps controllers should work, but are usually only used for USB-C input using stuff.

https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/usb/storage/unusual_uas.h
https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/drivers/usb/storage/uas-detect.h

[stray badger]

thats what FA-18s are for

[twin dew]

If certain high-up politicians in west and their inner circles didn't actually fully believe Putins "we will use nukes as first response!" rhetoric.

[twin dew]

Basically anything in that first file, with "US_FL_IGNORE_UAS" will not use UAS/UASP under Linux, and will always use BOT.
And that ASM1051 will also get that, and ASM1053 will get that if connected on USB2.0, as they are impossible to differentiate from 1051 in that case.

Ok, so later JMicron controllers will use UAS, but have other stuff broken.

[twin dew]

So ASM1053E or later, ASM1153 or any 10Gbit/s USB controller.

[soft bloom]

I built two data sets for locations and planets separately so that they can run on Kaggle
but, now i see that their time is offset by 1 second...
bruh

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaXKQ70q4KQ
I like what Derek says in the end, that in some sense, this story can be viewed as invention made possible from boredom induced by automation

[pure karma]

what in the holy vram is that lmao

[edgy hazel]

MagicZ™️ style rendering

[pure karma]

for future reference i did not overclock this time lol

[night girder]

but what did you do huh? 😏

[pure karma]

nothing actually as always

[mental oriole]

Got something fucking with that VRAM.

[soft bloom]

got fed up by Kaggle
locally, even single process is almost 3 times faster
and there's like 12 threads to utilize...

[narrow zenith]

i should probably not overclock my gpu, i was having weird visual glitches in vrchat and i think its overclock related lol

[stray badger]

Probly

[soft bloom]

underclocking gpu is underrated

[twin dew]

Underclock, or undervolt?

[narrow zenith]

overclock

[twin dew]

And, somehow I read the first overclock as underclock adn got confused...

[visual tree]

Ouch 😅 https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1h1c5uu/mtas_ai_bus_cameras_issue_thousands_of_mistaken/

They started using cameras here to scan licence plates of parked vehicles and issue fines for those who don't have a parking ticket, hope they are not using a broken "AI" lol

Basically, two boxes on a car with cameras which scan licence plates as you drive around

[mental oriole]

That sounds like a security risk...

[visual tree]

Considering public companies and organizations here like to cut costs in the IT department first, I wouldn't be surprised if someone hacks the system and makes a complete mess....

Good programmers and security experts almost always work for private companies since they are better paid there while public companies hire cheap labor in IT and then get surprised when things go wrong

Private companies: we expect recent college graduates to have at least 5 years of programming experience and dozens of certificates

Public companies: Oh, you know how to write "Hello, World!" in Python? That's excellent, you are hired!

[languid gulch]

i don't think it's incompetence, once you hit that level, it's deliberate

someone still made the choice to do it

i'm beyond angry at the "we've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing" horseshit

[visual tree]

I hear this exact statement each time some scandal happens here and the government hires an inspection agency to investigate lol

[languid gulch]

close runners-up are:
-"we investigated and found wrongdoing, but not enough to fire anyone or change any policies"
-"we found wrongdoing, but someone else is gonna have to do something about it"

[winged valley]

Considering the platereaders used by law enforcement or hell my school's security are waaayyyyy smaller than those, this is either old tech or shitty AI with compute stored in those

[visual tree]

I don't think public companies here even know how to use AI lol. They probably picked a vendor who bought some cheap chinese licence plate reading system and then resold the same system for 5x of the price

[languid gulch]

morons in power who grab onto things with the most recent catchphrase, grab some kind of stock in it, then magically advocate for its use in government

whether or not it works

[twin dew]

And machine reading of license plates has been a thing long before the AI craze...

[visual tree]

One example how criminals here who are in high positions in hospitals pull out government money and then launder them: Step 1: Find a corrupted relative who will start a company selling medical devices. Step 2: As a hospital employee, start a public tender for obtaining a medical device and make device specifications so restrictive in a way that only a company which your relative has founded can procure said device while meeting specs. Step 3: The company will make an offer that is 20x of the device market price since no other company on the market can deliver the device which meets restrictive specs. Step 4: Sign a contract with the company of your relative and you just laundered government money

[night girder]

Worked on application for scanning license plates for the city of Antwerp. Didn't have any ML.

[soft bloom]

I bet they don't anticipate cars without license plates

[edgy hazel]

another W for crime

[visual tree]

I wonder will the system notify the police if it detects a car without a licence plate

My guess is that the system will simply notify the operator the licence plate is not readable and then operator will manually check the car and notify the police if licence plate is actually missing

[visual tree]

I bet you designed it in a way that your own car is always ignored so you don't have to buy a parking ticket

[soft bloom]

oi mate, did you recognise a C-word in actions of a very specific group who also like to paint cars in dark matte color and darken glass?

[soft bloom]

for that it wouldneed to even recognize there's a car.
and I think simplest software will just look for text in specific format.
so you could walk around with a plate of someone else and get them in trouble

[visual tree]

Don't give people ideas

[night girder]

There was indeed a DB with license plates that the cameras ignore. Else ambulances, police cars, fire fighters etc could get a speeding ticket.

[visual tree]

I suppose they are updated regularly when the emergency services get a car with new licence plate number

Imagine if police bought 100 new vehicles and then they get flagged because the DB has not been updated lol

Although such a thing would be expected in my country considering the incompetence of employees in public sector

[night girder]

Also, the system had issues with very specific letters.

And mud to license plates can also throw it off.

[wanton orchid]

that's why you have agencies reserved plate numbers

you can register the ranges for this

[visual tree]

Oh, right. Police and military has a different licence plate number format (don't know about paramedics and firefighters though but I suspect they also have a specific format)

[stray badger]

<@&387163995947270144> possible scam link

[orchid verge]

👍

[rustic panther]

At least in the Netherlands you'd also have to falsify your car's papers and make sure the license plate you nick is from exactly the same car, and even then there's a good chance the cops'll sniff you out

[stray badger]

this is about automated AI parking tickets given by buses. No cops involved

[soft bloom]

nah, in simplest case you could literaly just walk with t-shirt that looks like a plate

[tough owl]

This is scummy I don’t like it

[languid gulch]

meanwhile my dad still tells stories about how GM's keys were so loose that he could take his Bel Air's key and use it in his friend's Oldsmobile

did i mention friend was a cop

[rustic panther]

That's just ANPR and a GPS system though

You call it AI because it's automated and that's what gives you the contract and/or the budget

[dire igloo]

Proper automation >>> slapping AI onto it as automation

[rustic panther]

In this case it appears someone accidentally flipped a switch to turn a test area into a real area

So sounds like human error to me

[languid gulch]

k, dumb youtube+adblocker question

i'm on firefox, so the adblocker still works, but it's clear that they're making youtube crawl and have pain in the ass delays with it

is there a way to make it behave?

restarting firefox helps for a bit, but it starts to act up after a few hours

[sharp oasis]

I still haven't had anything on Firefox and adblock

[tough owl]

Spoof your user agent

Every website thinks I’m on the latest chrome version when I’m using Firefox

[maiden coyote]

Welcome to the adblock war lol

[languid gulch]

it loves to have weird delays in hitting play/pause, like it's not acknowledging that the mouse exists

[twin dew]

I said machine reading, not machine learning.

Just because that, that it was being done even before ML was really a thing.

[soft bloom]

OpenCV can do a lot without anything ML related

now it kinda feels like a lost craft

[languid gulch]

idk why but this is still one of my favorite sites to mess around in

that's my home state laid over europe 🤣

[visual tree]

Few days ago, youtube started detecting uBlock origin on Chrome and I can no longer use it for youtube....

[languid gulch]

yea i heard it got nuked on everything chrome

[visual tree]

I wouldn't be surprised if Google starts frightening people by saying using adblocker on youtube violates ToS and Google will ban your account (including gmail, drive, etc...)

[languid gulch]

oh i bet GDPR would drop the hammer on them if they tried

even the FBI recommends using an adblocker for security

[visual tree]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/02/terraria-developer-cancels-google-stadia-port-after-youtube-account-ban/

Old article but a nightmare since the company was using google services and Google banned everything

[dire igloo]

With over ten times more people living in the same area

[languid gulch]

oh 100%

mainly because y'all can actually live in those places

let's just say we don't actually equate rivers with water around here

[visual tree]

Wanted to ask, have you ever ordered an electronic device containing lithium from a german shop and had issues with shipping?

I know Deutche Post banned shipping products containing lithium by air but I suppose any carrier will ship such products on ground then

[twin dew]

Lithium batteries etc. are HazMat for air transport everywhere.

And can only be transported in cargo planes, not passanger planes etc.

[languid gulch]

i love how laptops have a 99Whr size limit on their batteries

[twin dew]

In general for products with integrated Lithium containing batteries.

[visual tree]

Planning on ordering Meta Quest 3 from Amazon.de and using a parcel forwarding company in Germany so I can pay 19% VAT instead of 25% but I am worried the company will flat out refuse packages that are marked with lithium warning

[twin dew]

Not just laptops.

[languid gulch]

might just take longer to get to you instead of being banned outright

[twin dew]

Lot of transport companies will not ship, as they just cannot be bothered to deal with the extra requirements.

Same for stores.

[languid gulch]

true

[languid gulch]

is that connected to russian sanctions?

[visual tree]

No

I think it's a general rule because of safety

[twin dew]

No?
That is the general air transport hazmat thing.
Deutche Post doesn't really use cargo planes, just passanger plane extra space.

[visual tree]

According to the image above, the forwarding company will accept the package but you need to use UPS for shipping

[twin dew]

So they don't accept anything that cannot be transported in passanger plane cargo holds.

UPS in turn uses their own cargo planes for most of the air transport.

[languid gulch]

i didn't know if it was one of those new rules that wouldn't do much under normal circumstances, but would indirectly affect something like the russian economy without explicitly saying so

[twin dew]

Been the case for 10-20 years already.

[languid gulch]

wish we did more EU education here 🤣

[twin dew]

Not even just EU thing.
Both EASA and FAA regulations.

So in effect in most of the world.

[languid gulch]

ngl i had no idea UPS operated there

[twin dew]

As most other places use regulations from one of those.

[twin dew]

All the big express freight companies have their own cargo plane networks.

[visual tree]

I read a lot of people who ordered Amazon Kindle in EU had shipping issues because of lithium (probably related to improper labeling)

[visual tree]

UPS delivers packages from other countries here and doesn't do domestic delivery afaik

[languid gulch]

ah that'd do it

[visual tree]

Noticed the same with DHL

[languid gulch]

yea we have a bit of DHL here, not very much tho, & they seem to have dropped off a lot in recent years

[twin dew]

UPS, DHL etc. operate everywhere, but just the prices are insane in most places.
And they don't ever really do consumer freight, just B2B.

[visual tree]

Yeah, my parents only used DHL when they wanted to send an envelope to a relative abroad and it was very expensive

A package would have been even 10x more expensive than an envelope

Here are UPS prices btw (my country code is HR):

[twin dew]

Because those companies are for Business to Business, door to door, at day definite speed.
With price to match.

[languid gulch]

i love the bouncing between metric & imperial btw

ok i have a really dumb american question

why does the € use the decimal for cents, but "normal numbers" in the thousands follow the French decimal/comma system

[visual tree]

Ouch, just noticed there is a surcharge till January 16 😭

[glossy glacier]

Wdym "normal numbers"?

[languid gulch]

non-monetary

[twin dew]

There are more than two variants of the "thousands separator" and "decimal separator" systems in the world.

decimal can be . or ,
thousands can be space, . or ,

Just that no country uses same of . and , for both.

So in this case thousands separator is space, and decimal is .

[languid gulch]

just kinda strange to me that everyone in the EU agreed to use (.) for euros 🤣

[visual tree]

Most european countries will use comma to separate decimals but some use period

[languid gulch]

ah true

[glossy glacier]

So a language thing then, not €

[visual tree]

We use comma here

[twin dew]

No?
Comma in Finland always for decimal separator.

[languid gulch]

so it could be €25.454,86?

[twin dew]

Including money.

25 454,86€ in Finland.

And with Euros, the currency symbol is always at the end.

Dollars are about the only one where it is in the front.

[languid gulch]

i don't think i could ever get used to just having spaces between thousands

i love learning about it tho

[glossy glacier]

Same here in germany. But the thousand seperation is up to the writer

[twin dew]

In Germany . seems to be the official one.

For thousands separator.

But seems that some sources say that both are in use.

[glossy glacier]

ive seen everything between " ","." and "" ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[twin dew]

And seems ˙ is also used as thousands separator in some countries.

[twin dew]

Yes, stuff can be use even when it shouldn't.

[languid gulch]

sorry to derail 🤣 might be worth hunting down the direct carrier of the Meta Quest 3 to see what their policy is for lithium batteries

[twin dew]

Up to that 100Wh, in retail packaging, with right labels, can go into passanger plane cargo.

[languid gulch]

18.88Wh capacity on the MQ3

4879mAH

[twin dew]

Yeah, which was the point, that should just go and no-one cares.

[languid gulch]

think my phone has a bigger battery

[visual tree]

Amazon uses multiple shipping companies in Germany so you never know which company is going to be shipping meta quest 3 until you get a tracking number

Although they are most likely shipping with vans so there shouldn't be issues

[languid gulch]

yea, sounds like worrying for no real reason. if they are allowed to legally ship it to you, they'll get it to you. if not, refund time

[twin dew]

And point was: Retail packages with right labels are good to go even on passanger planes up to that 100Wh battery capacity, so no-one cares.

[visual tree]

I am only worried about lithium labeling since this is where most shipping issues occur and you have no control over it

[languid gulch]

i wouldn't worry about it unless you plan on picking it up yourself & hauling it home

[glossy glacier]

Just order it and let the logistics system do the thinking xD

[languid gulch]

yup

[visual tree]

Some forwarding companies will flat-out refuse receiving packages with lithium before forwarding to customers later

[languid gulch]

i bet there's a decent refund policy. i'm in the US & i got a "if it's not there within 2 days after we say it's supposed to be there, you get a refund even if it gets delivered"

[visual tree]

Since they don't want to bother with regulations

[languid gulch]

would there be any regulatory/border issues with driving to the purchase location yourself & taking it home?

[visual tree]

I could ship directly to my home address but that would be much more expensive because of VAT difference and you need to pay additional €45 shipping cost 💀

[languid gulch]

so 45 euro in direct shipping, or the cost of a day trip 🤣

[visual tree]

Don't understand why when allmost all my orders on amazon had free shipping

And those who didn't had a small shipping cost

[languid gulch]

feels like it might be one of those "this is so american we have to charge you extra for it"

[twin dew]

Because Amazon doesn't use normal Post office for cross border shipping even inside EU.
But goes to UPS, DHL etc. with much higher price.

So inside Germany, Amazon.de uses cheap shipping.
Outside Germany, it uses very expensive shipping.

[languid gulch]

lol ship it to just inside germany, then drive to pick it up

[twin dew]

Even when that same cheap shipping via Deutche Post or like would work inside EU and be significantly cheaper than UPS, DHL or like.

[visual tree]

Amazon almost always offers me free shipping for orders above €49 and some small shipping fee for orders under €49 but some specific products like meta quest 3 have crazy shipping costs

[languid gulch]

it's definitely strange

got any friends in Salzburg you could ship it to?

[twin dew]

Is if being shipped by Amazon, from Amazon warehouse?
Or by the seller?

[visual tree]

I will just accept the risk and hope forwarding company won't cause problems and ask for refund if package gets rejected

[languid gulch]

worst case scenario is a refund

[visual tree]

Shipped by amazon in 90% of cases

[languid gulch]

just swim out & grab it off the ship as it goes by

[visual tree]

Also, I checked meta quest 3 shipping cost several times in few months and noticed soemtimes they charge €45 for shipping and sometimes they don't

Guess it's related to amazon warehouse and shipping distance

[languid gulch]

btw can i just say i still love croatia's coastline

[visual tree]

Having so many islands is a bad thing actually because the greedy sellers then justify islands causing higher transportation costs so they can pump up the prices in supermarkets 💀

No matter if you are in continental part or not

[languid gulch]

sounds like SE asia

[glossy glacier]

I just want to say it is amusing to see Deutsche Post and DHL treated as something different. While it is technically true, inside germany they are basically the same. 🙂

[visual tree]

"But...but... milka chocolate here needs to be 3x more expensive compared to germany because we have islands!"

[languid gulch]

New York & New Jersey don't know who legally owns the Statue of Liberty

[visual tree]

lol

Used google translate (grocery store prices comparison):

[visual tree]

I prefer raffaello over ferrero though

[languid gulch]

i can't stand Oreos

the fake sugar crap wrecks me

[visual tree]

Yeah, never liked oreo. They taste very generic to me

[languid gulch]

i wonder if the american ones are substantially different

HOO

oh that's the bigger size 🤣

[visual tree]

But that is still too expensive compared to 250ml version

[languid gulch]

$2/100ml

oh wow, dollar & euro are almost the same right now

$1=0.96€

[visual tree]

And I assume those prices don't include taxes

[languid gulch]

for me, correct

add ~8%

[visual tree]

Which means even higher price lol

[languid gulch]

about its regular price, $8.67

so germany's paying about the same as the US per unit

[visual tree]

Recently ordered Nutella from german amazon and I immediately noticed the taste is better and more nutty compared to the version for the local market

Don't want to know what local version contains...

[languid gulch]

i'd love for you to take a picture of the american section of your market if you have one

next time you're there

[visual tree]

I think the cereal section has a lot of brands from USA

[languid gulch]

yea i figured that much 🤣

CORN EVERYWHERE

[visual tree]

I used to eat Kellogg's regular cornflakes as a child 20 years ago. Don't know if they changed the ingredients recently or made it worse

[languid gulch]

might be a different variety of corn

wow, ferrero rocher 200g/7oz is $6.29 here, same as croatia

[visual tree]

Found online prices of kellogg's products in a local store

[languid gulch]

🤣 nice

any Frosted Flakes?

[visual tree]

I've seen them a long time ago but don't think anyone sells them anymore except maybe specialized stores selling food from USA

[languid gulch]

might be luxury because of all the sugar

[visual tree]

I'd rather take that than Prime and Lunchly crap

Never tried them and don't want to tbh lol

Lunchly food looks like it's been 3D-printed

[languid gulch]

we definitely have that kind of stuff here

everyone has the cheap crap that nobody wants to admit exists, and then there's the cheap stuff that everyone loves 🤣

for americans that's bologna & hot dogs

[visual tree]

I am a big fan of pringles but stopped buying it because pringles is not the same as it was 5 years ago

[languid gulch]

yea, i feel like they got thinner

[visual tree]

I can tell they ruined the taste

Because I have a perfect memory of how they tasted 5 years ago

[visual tree]

They are literally cutting costs everywhere they can, including a new logo

Black and white is cheaper to print compared to color version

[languid gulch]

all about that profit margin

hey, i did see a specific Croatian dish that looks familiar 🤣 we just call it by the english name

Punjena paprika

we've got basically all the same ingredients, just use them differently

[visual tree]

Oh, stuffed peppers, I don't think it originated from Croatia but I love it

My mother just stuffs the peppers with minced meat

[languid gulch]

ours are usually overstuffed

we slice ours in half longways so it's like a pepper bowl with mincemeat & cheese on top

[visual tree]

I love Philly cheesesteak

When I first read steak and cheese, I ordered it thinking I would get a steak covered in cheese 🤣

Got a sandwich but it's still perfect

[languid gulch]

we managed to make the philly cheesesteak even more american. now you can get philly cheesesteak pizza

[visual tree]

I like the standard version with meat, onions, cheese and with/without sauce

[languid gulch]

it's a great cold weather meal

some places here also throw portobello mushrooms in it

[mental oriole]

I have always seen pringles as overpriced crap.

[dire igloo]

never

[visual tree]

They were at least decent more than 5 years ago but recently started cutting corners everywhere and the taste is bad

I could find a lot of chips in discount stores with better taste now compared to pringles

[night girder]

I didn't reply to you stating machine reading. You said AI.

[twin dew]

That it was a thing long before "AI"

[night girder]

Yes I can read.

And all I said is that I worked on application.

Before the time of "AI" which is ML.

[cyan crescent]

My friend got a 10.5lb or 4.76kg 4080 super. Shit is ridiculous

[pure karma]

Seems about right

[verbal raft]

AAAAHHHH HELLL NAAAHHH MAAN (im not surprised at all) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r2iBhxDhEM&t=907s

also MARK MY WORDS : the 5080 will be slower than the 7900 XTX when using RT (ultra) at 4K ultra*

just because of that VRAM

(and if that isnt the case then this was a joke)

i'm also 100% positive that NVIDIA is gonna sell us on 8K again

[dire igloo]

Last I checked, 7900xtx performs like a 4070 in RT scenarios - so you're saying that a 4070 beats a 5080?
Yikes.

[languid gulch]

6800XT defnitely feels like the 1080Ti successor now

[wanton orchid]

I'm like 💀 nah

gonna keep my gtx1080ti EVGA FTW3 with me

wondering if I will hold them to the coffin or something at that point

[tough owl]

nvidia figured out they could sell the 80ti class card for more and more each year becuase people will buy them

[soft bloom]

... because were sold they need them

[willow pike]

sorry but if this is true (i seriously doubt) i am going to be insufferable

hell if it's close I'm gonna be insufferable

[stray badger]

What, 12gb?

[pure karma]

it will be funny if it is but no way

[soft bloom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkhpuuPljS4
this must be the best arc i have ever seen
It just looks like electrons fly by and then get hooked back into the circuit

I kinda want to see someone put a shee of paper in between to see how it will get burned

[grand dirge]

shee

shee paper

[eternal pumice]

keep reducing the logo further and further until it's just the moustache heheh

[twin dew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNxHEj9PKoY

Will see how much worse that is than the Ryzen 5800X I had to take look at.
Which had nonstandard insufficient cooler, two 80mm case fans with fan curves that had broken the bearings in one of them in less than 2 years (fan curve going so low that the back fan stopped when system was idle, and then turned on every time the CPU did even background processing) etc.

Nonstandard fan connectors too.

Ok, that was mixing with another system.

That was normal mid-tower, just very crappy case.

[verbal raft]

i just think that 16Gb of VRAM isnt gonna be enough for RT at somewhat high settings

[languid gulch]

it's still absolute bullshit that it still takes an 80/90 class card to get "decent" RT

[verbal raft]

and i most definatly dont think the 4070 would beat the 5080....not at all

[languid gulch]

5080 damn well better match the 4090 for the price

[verbal raft]

i mean which hurts a cards perf more? running out of VRAM or RT accelarators melting down?

i choose VRAM

[dire igloo]

In today's times, the main issue with VRAM isn't that the storage itself is insufficient, it's that the chips don't have the horsepower to fully utilize it.

Similar thing with CPU vs RAM: being RAM limited is a rare thing for the everyday consumer

[dire igloo]

Easy fix: change your definition of "decent"

[languid gulch]

lol

"if your standards are too high, please lower your standards"

i doubt that would have been acceptable when rasterization came out

[verbal raft]

i disagree

[dire igloo]

It's just that without knowing what you consider "decent" the entire discussion is pointless

Because there's no common ground to go off of

[languid gulch]

for today's monitor standards, i'd say 90fps on 1440p

[dire igloo]

Do you mean 60fps+ in Pathtracing? No lower than 90% of raster fps?

[dire igloo]

Why?

[verbal raft]

" the main issue with VRAM isn't that the storage itself is insufficient, it's that the chips don't have the horsepower to fully utilize it." i disagree with this part

[dire igloo]

Valid point I guess - and yeah, midrange RT ain't there, at least not without other tools to assist like upscaling n stuff like that.

For me, 60fps works if the frametime spikes aren't too egregious. I used to not get 100fps in 1440p high settings even in standard raster - that was before I swapped my 5700xt for a 7800xt

[verbal raft]

you dont need a 5080 to "fully utilize" 16Gb of VRAM

[languid gulch]

i'd have expected that after a full 4 generations into the ray tracing portion of gaming, that something below what counts as a high-end gpu would be capable of running RT games with RT on without any of the upscaling "cheats"

[dire igloo]

You can run out of vram on any modern GPU if you just find a niche enough usecase.
Doesn't mean that it's a common thing or anything anyone should be concerned about

[languid gulch]

hell you can melt any GPU with minecraft

[verbal raft]

while 16Gb might be enough for 4K right now

later i think its gonna change

[dire igloo]

I'd go as far as saying that you're more likely to get VRAM limited on a 4070 Ti than a 4080 Super.
Can't go off of any unreviewed GPU, that's just speculation and nonsense

As far why I said what I said:
I've seen people be afraid that 12gb VRAM would be insufficient for generic 1440p gaming when even a year ago, 8gb was still workable.
It's just very skewed

That's exactly what I mean tho, it's all just speculation

And "futureproofing" based on fear and speculation is bullshit

[dire igloo]

1. How common is 4K as a resolution for gaming?
2. What's the average amount of VRAM required to run a modern game in 4K?
3. Do you have performance data on whether GPUs struggle to keep up on the VRAM part or the chip part?

[verbal raft]

"you're more likely to get VRAM limited on a 4070 Ti than a 4080 Super." yeah of course because the 4070 TIE only has 12Gb

[verbal raft]

1: not very
2: depends,there are already games out there that use more than 16Gb even at 1440p
3:that also depends on the game and the amount of VRAM availabe

and if you buy a 5080 you are at least buying it for 4K

[twin dew]

Wonder when first 27" 4K non-OLED monitors with DP 2.x finally come out...

To not need DSC.

Might not be happening at all, with LG possibly stopping making IPS panels.

[dire igloo]

Exactly - the VRAM difference is bigger than the chip difference, hence why I said that

[languid gulch]

i just have really high standards for GPUs if they're going to be charging an arm & a leg for them

[dire igloo]

About 2: that's just shitty game optimization and imo shouldn't be made a hardware issue. Too many devs get away with poor optimization nowadays, that behavior shouldn't be rewarded.

About 3: data is data. Without data, there's no educated discussion to be had. Some data is better than no data

[languid gulch]

remember when $700 was flagship pricing?

[dire igloo]

4090 is a mislabeled Titan, can't change my mind

[languid gulch]

www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/news/gfecnt/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1080-ti/

[dire igloo]

The RTX lineup would make so much more sense if the 4090 was actually labeled Titan

[twin dew]

I remember when flagship pricing was about $250

[languid gulch]

everything in the 30 & 40 series is mislabeled above what it actually is if you look at how cut down each tier is compared to earlier generations

[twin dew]

(In late 1990s)

[twin dew]

Ah, on DP2.1 UHBR speeds, everyone is waiting for Nvidia to release their first cards with that, so they can make sure their products work with Nvidia output quirks.
As no-one expect Nvidia to test that their cards work with any already released monitors...

[languid gulch]

$2500 for a current gen flagship, or $2500 for a top-tier last gen pc in its entirety. not gonna be a hard decision for most people

think i managed to get a 9800X3D/7900XTX system down to $2000 last time i tried

jesus, $1830 if i squeeze it

[visual tree]

Buying a top-tier gaming pc hardware parts here from local stores with insane prices would cost you as much as a 5 kW solar panel installation with government subsidies included lol

[willow pike]

honestly if my computer conked out right now i would just get a fucking strix halo steam machine and be done with the whole stinking mess of graphics card capitalism

[tough owl]

Thank you ai

[soft bloom]

In the time of golden rush sell shovels

We had crypto craze - they sold gpus to mine on
We have ai craze - they sell gpus to train on

Also all the guys who sell books and webinars on how to get rich with shovels...

I don't cre if crypto dies and takes with it everyone who kept money in it when climate catches on

But I hope that some helpful ai won't be dead in the time of need for the same reason

[visual tree]

Doing some calculation if cloud gaming is worth it, opinions?

[tough owl]

Well that’s assuming you live in a region where cloud gaming is available and you have a good strong internet connection

[visual tree]

Both are fine 👍

[tough owl]

Well for you it might make sense but in general for others it may not is what I was saying

[visual tree]

The only calculation where I might have screwed up is electricity cost but that shouldn't make a huge difference

At this point, there is not much difference between cloud gaming and getting a gaming pc in my case so I am not sure

*with the exception that you can play any game you want when using your own gaming pc which might not be available on geforce now

[tough owl]

Yea that’s the biggest problem I have is the lack of available games on GeForce now

[glossy glacier]

doesn't geforce now use your own game library?

[twin dew]

AFAIK worst of both worlds, you need to own the game, and it needs to be supported by GFN.

[visual tree]

Guess I'll stick to my own gaming pc then

In my case, GFN scenario is slightly more expensive but I don't like the fact you can't play any game you want

[edgy hazel]

Or you could rent your own PC using NZXT Flex

[twin dew]

And use it to play on GFN.

[edgy hazel]

Yes

[cyan igloo]

HI

[twin dew]

And only play games you rent via MS Game Pass?

[edgy hazel]

speedrunning a good 500€/mo for gaming

Imagine doing that and not knowing you spent enough money for a high end gaming PC in 4 months

[edgy hazel]

G'day

[cyan igloo]

G'day sir, Do you have the Latest GPU RX 7900 XT from Radeon Lineup Edition Sir?

[edgy hazel]

I do

[cyan igloo]

You're a very rich sir. I must commend you on your taste sir.

[edgy hazel]

I guess

<@&387163995947270144>

[pure karma]

bruh

[visual tree]

I had a feeling this conversation is going to end up this way 😅

[edgy hazel]

Yeah

[pure karma]

you were right it is indeed very fun

[edgy hazel]

joins discord
immediately begs for game and admits playing the pirated version
expects good results

[visual tree]

Best part is judging if people are rich based on what GPU they have and then begging them for satisfactory

[twin dew]

Also tried more general one on main channel.

[visual tree]

I should add RTX 6000 to my name and see if people are going to beg me for satisfactory

[glossy glacier]

GT 710

[visual tree]

If I had GT 710 in my name, even a starving dog wouldn't beg me for anything

[tough owl]

That’s an awesome idea 💀

If they’re going to be dumb enough to rent a pc from them

Why not just buy it with affirm 💀

[dire igloo]

I still find it amazing that it's more worthwhile to take out an illegal loan with the mafia than to use NZXT's subscription service

[willow pike]

https://tenor.com/view/to-capitalism-metal-gear-solid-mgs3-gif-11316909

[visual tree]

Capitalism? Ironically, I just watched fallout episode 8 and learned what Vault-Tec did

That is a perfect example of capitalism lol

[sand saddle]

400 for games per year? Hell nah 🏴‍☠️

Sales exist...

[visual tree]

Ok, I'll raise it to 600 then

[verbal raft]

what a usefull comparison...

oh wait its actually a 3060 VS 7800 XT

but the guy couldnt even make a new thumbnail..

for this bulls**t

[visual tree]

Yeah, he used AI to generate a thumbnail and both images look the same lol

[languid gulch]

when it's 0fps you can make the thumbnail look amazing

[visual tree]

I mean, they are the same

Also, comparing RX 7800 XT to RTX 3060 is unfair imo

[verbal raft]

it is very unfair

the 3060 is like 270€ while the 7800 XT is at least 430€

[sand saddle]

All of those channels and comparisons are fake or questionable at the very least

[verbal raft]

yeah

[visual tree]

Also, regarding the video, never bring VRAM to a core fight

On 1080p it won't help you at all

[tough owl]

only good one is like zwormz or whatever that channel name is

[thin trout]

I maintain a high end system (which blows away streaming options) and buy all of my games for a similar net yearly cost

more initial investment, less upkeep, better experience

streaming is good if you have a £200 stream box (especially if already owned) and don't know if you're gonna be using it heavily 6 months from now because of the more pay-as-you-go nature

if you know that you're gonna be using it most of the day for years to come then owning averages out cheaper while giving a better experience

there are also some issues like not everything being available to stream, had some games and tests recently where people were not able to participate because of Nvidia being slow to support them.

[languid gulch]

idk if my system counts as high end or not

my 6800XT says yes, but my 5600X says no

[narrow zenith]

I have a 7900XTX and i am very much not rich lol

[tough owl]

https://bsky.app/profile/culturecrave.co/post/3leinnxzloj22

Culture Crave 🍿 (@culturecrave.co)

Meta confirms they plan to add tons of AI-generated users to Facebook and Instagram

They will have bios, profile pics and can share content

(via Financial Times)

Reposts

173

Likes

578

Quotes

910

Replies

241

Bluesky · Dec 30, 2024, 4:04 AM

Dead internet theory no longer a theory

Thanks meta

[languid gulch]

ok ngl i like the idea of a gpu at the front of the case

that'd be a pretty decent airflow with the passthru cooling that's showing up everywhere

and maybe a use for 200mm fans behind it to suck the hot air away around the gpu and thru to the rest of the case & on out

LOL or maybe a new gpu standard where they're the "normal" width, but no fans, just fins. that way you can stick the gpu wherever, and also pick your own fans to go on it

[visual tree]

Guess we can expect electronics price increase...

[twin dew]

In US.
Or anything actually physically passing through US.

If those are the Trump proposed ones, and not something EU intends to do.

[visual tree]

I just hope we are not going to end up with a trade war because this will disrupt the supply chain and everyone will pay the price no matter where they live

[tribal kraken]

I just hate riser cables as one possible failure point if its just for looks. But to fit big GPU:s to case I had to use one if wanted to close side panel. As in all just need to buy quality one or waste hours.

[languid gulch]

yea, i've not liked the riser cable as a point of failure, and i don't like the vertical GPU mount because of how it negatively affects thermals

but man i like that case concept if they can find a way to make it decent

[tribal kraken]

My current water loop allows traditional GPU mount also without draining, but cant close sidepanel. Power cable can fit but waterblock terminal interferes to glass panel.

[languid gulch]

ok, stupid question: would there be a latency reduction if they moved the normally-GPU dedicated top PCIe slot over to the ram side of the mobo, have it vertical, and add in a passthru for the video outputs to the back of the case?

[tribal kraken]

Dunno if its latency limit or just signal quality if the distance is long

[twin dew]

Just signal quality issue, which is why lot of current riser cables have signal amps in them.

But getting that kind of buy-in from both case and MB sides at same time is basically impossible.
See how well the "MB connectors on backside of board" has gone.
Or even what happened with BTX.

[languid gulch]

lol move on from dual chamber cases, make the mobo have a 90 degree PCIe slot on the backside, make a case with a floating mount for the mobo

[twin dew]

And this did that already as example:
GPU PCIe was on daughter board moving it to the back of the MB.

[tribal kraken]

Tried look for maximum GPU widht for Lian Li O11D. Looks like they share full CAD data of the case in STEP format. Would help a lot desing and 3D print air flow guide/tunnel from top fans to RAM sticks.

[soft bloom]

from top fans to rams sticks? huh?

[tribal kraken]

That would be the closest as in full water loop system only them and CPU VRM really need some airflow

I had 10th gen Intel with the Asus Formula board that had watercooled VRM from factory, and had no case fans. Memory just got too hot

[soft bloom]

I'm use to top being exhaust, not intake

[tribal kraken]

Overclockers usually just hang fan somewhere fro RAM, but with 3D printed guide from top you could push lot of air from 3x low rpm fans where its needed

[dire igloo]

Please tell me someone ate the Onion

[night girder]

Sounds a lot like PR to me.

“We **expect **these AIs to actually, over time, exist on our platforms, kind of in the same way that accounts do"

What is "kind of in the same way that accounts do" ...

Are the AI's going to troll comment and shame people profile pictures? Just like other accounts do.

[twin dew]

Well, lot of misinformation bots already on the various platforms powered by ChatGPT etc.

[night girder]

It just sounds like whishful thinking.

Also, EU Is prepping more and more "if it's AI content, mark it so users know." regulations. So all those AI profiles will have to somehow be marked so people know.

[twin dew]

Replying to other people with combination of static prompt and the replied to message being fed to LLM to generate a reply which is then automatically posted.

[night girder]

I will believe it when I see it.

But so far, all the AI hype over the 4-5 years.

And what do we got? A google search on steroids (chatGPT).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUrKCvoXlM

Even asmongold is reporting on it 🤣

[soft bloom]

and it seems like current way of doing science is at the plateau
not in the sense of "there's nothing more to discover" (like some people thought around 1900s...)
but in the sense that phase 2 ended in early 1900s when quantum phisics got it's kick
and linear phase ended in 1970s

[twin dew]

Nah, just that the people who could explore the unknown are not really allowed to by current structure and financing in academia.

Where your worth is purely in writing papers with positive results (no matter how uninteresting or worthless) and playing office politics.

And negative results aren't even published.

And the amount of that research funding that is just going to running overbloated bureaucracy instead of actual research had gone to insane levels.

[soft bloom]

which is "current way of doing science" 🙂

[twin dew]

But that never had that curve in it.

[soft bloom]

well, actually, depends on how we measure performance

[dire igloo]

Also, profitability being a major factor for deciding what type of research actually gets funded

[soft bloom]

because originially I assigned it to the level of tech / understanding of real world

[dire igloo]

Who cares about that shit, money goes in, money has to come out, easy as that

We know more about space than we know about our oceans or the human brain

Fuck, we don't even know why most medication works the way it does

[soft bloom]

which has been driven by consumerism for about 100 years now
so it was inevitable without change of the context - how it is funded, what is funded, what gets published and what is implemented/spread

[dire igloo]

Why does Methylphenidate work for ADHD treatment? No clue
How does Paracetamol numb pain? Nobody knows

We know THAT it works, but not how or why

[twin dew]

Nah, before the same fake "Economist" caused changes, lot of big companies used lot of money in R&D departments, large parts of which just did basic research without any real focus.
Just in case something would pop up that could then be monetized with more targeted additional work.

[soft bloom]

there's definitely a curbe in sense that before 1800s science was a leisure of welthy bored people

[twin dew]

But either you look at the whole, where there is the curve and the stagnation is from the current methods.
Or you look just the time with the current methods, which have been stagnant the whole time basically.

AT&T Labs, Xerox PARC/Labs etc.

Which got killed later when corporate taxes in US were dropped and that "Shareholder short term value" took hold.
Both from the same few "Economists"

Then the transformations of US universities etc. since the same time.
Bleeding over to rest of the world over time.

[dire igloo]

We shouldn't have gone to shareholder economics anyway and need to pivot to stakeholder economics

[soft bloom]

why do I start conversations when sugar rush starts kick in and then it gets to the sleepy phase and I simply can't think?

[twin dew]

That was basically in effect, but the point was to get rich richer fast, with politics masquerading as economics.

Before that shit got spewed with big money all over the world.

Crushing all the previous other stakeholders (employees, business partners, long term company health, etc.) below the short term returns for shareholders.

[dire igloo]

Customers...

For real tho, when has "scam your customers" become a viable business model?

[dire igloo]

ADHD

[twin dew]

Which was just one of the legs before Friedman & Co. pushed their veiled "get rich more money" stuff into mainstream.

[soft bloom]

someone once said a nice thing, something along the lines that consumerism doesn't expand - it eats itself.
when economy is optimized to raising value by exclusivity, faking value (marketing)...
more jobs with little actual value get created (bureaucracy, and marketing-induced service),
science progress can be bought (paid research papers, patents)
it gets to a limit

aren't there enough smart people to optimize economy that would put human rights first?

[twin dew]

The people with money and/or power don't see that as a good thing, compared to current way.

[soft bloom]

sad they don't realize how bad question of climate is

[twin dew]

IIRC several of the large oil companies etc. have known since 70s/80s and chose to intentionally bury everything they could to not affect short term.

[soft bloom]

YT rn: suggests video about BlackRock

me: spots Visa logo there
remembers that my bank's app prompts me to re-issue my card with Visa
because the one from Mastercard, that is valid for 3 more years, ended cashback
considering everything what's going on with banks in my country, I am deeply annoyed

[dire igloo]

There are - but the issue is, they're not in charge.
And the people that are in charge don't have any incentive to change anything - other than the good of their heart (or thinking further than themselves)

[wanton orchid]

which is contradictory to "competition" in a world where parasitic behaviors can look viable

and advantages it short term and relatively

the goal becomes shutting down others business
instead of improving yours

(patents are a joke)

"oh but people are mean"
only because you made it the only survival way for everyone little fuckers

[dire igloo]

Patents offer some validity in the sense that you as the inventor should be able to control who makes what amount of money with it - but only when the invention was made by a neutral scientist, has a net-positive effect and the control is applied to reduce exploitation of the people it helps

Example:
Insulin production. Dude made the patent free to access cuz he said it's too important to restrict access to it.
Fast forward a bit, insulin is one of the most profitable drugs in the US healthcare system because companies just artificially inflate prices with no control against it

[twin dew]

That original stuff is still cheap, but it has major downsides compared to newer versions.
And isn't safe to use to all those at all who can use the new synthetic versions.

[dire igloo]

Or whoever invented the three-point seatbelt (was it Volvo? not sure) also made that patent available to all automakers.
They sacrificed company profit ("our cars are much safer than our competitors, buy here") for public benefit - tho idk if it was voluntary or through government intervention

[wanton orchid]

intellectual property must stay personal and un fungible
and should not grant control over the world or competition
but simply grant you credit and money back
(one never must be able to forbid someone else to do good stuff only because he was first to do something similar)

[soft bloom]

Ok, aren't there enough smart people to show that those in power aren't self sustainable? I mean, if they were, would they even care about others?

[dire igloo]

I should always be able to forbid someone else to use my invention for evil - but if I define evil as "hurts my money printer" then I become the evil douche

[wanton orchid]

you should never
you gave it to people
you are no god on earth

and for evil purposes these ones don't care about laws

[dire igloo]

Article 14 Section 2 of the German constitution:

Property entails obligations. Its use shall also serve the public good.

[soft bloom]

Huh, there were lots of cases when similar discoveries were made independably in a narrow timespan.
Is it fair to remember only one of them?.not really, all done the work

[wanton orchid]

that's what I'm pointing out basically

[dire igloo]

Thing is: this is happening.
But the people in power also hold some control over what the public does and doesn't see.

[wanton orchid]

laws are still written virtually by 3 disconnected arrogant fuckers mostly

[twin dew]

And traditionally either the stuff wasn't patentable at all (theoretical stuff).
Or was different enough in actual implementation to be separately patented (actual implementation level patent).

But then patent stuff has been eroded to be more about ideas and not implementations.

[dire igloo]

Just look at who owns the most popular media outlets

And their friends and connections

Here's an example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibiza_affair

[verbal raft]

i hope that doesnt effect the EU

[soft bloom]

Nad this happens without "enemy" label?
Huh, so much for "freedom" in Europe

[dire igloo]

It will, after all, we're exporting a lot to the US

[twin dew]

Media ownership has been consolidating all over the world unfortunately.

[dire igloo]

I'm trying to stay away from judging good versus bad

[soft bloom]

And I try to put a reference without being political

[soft bloom]

Recently heard a bit about Kirienko and Diveyevo order
These people are not joking

[soft bloom]

I meant that "oh and imagine what happens when it's not just political ,but there's also narrative of the enemy"

And yes, it's all connected to tech, because affects science

[wanton orchid]

btw can't you see how there is a trend in last media things for plot trying to shortcut "fighting against a inefficient system to change it" into "it's terrorism"

[soft bloom]

Huh?

Un has somewhat clear definition of terrorism

Don't how protesting system can slide into act of terror (frightening, hurting)

[wanton orchid]

like if you associate multiple people to fight against bad systemic trend
and that systemic trend send you military because you don't agree on this or that
and you defend yourself
"you are starting war"

[twin dew]

Which almost no large media empire cares about.

[wanton orchid]

some media do the shortcut more and more

actually going straight against post war2 messages

[soft bloom]

Oh that's like the trap that's used in female bullying
Aka when you stand for yourself they retaliate with hyperbola
(I hope i don't mess every term used here)

[dire igloo]

Hm, you were saying?
(This is Germany's most read newspaper btw)

[twin dew]

"news"paper

[dire igloo]

It's a bullshit magazine

[twin dew]

But that is why it is so large.

[soft bloom]

Also, haha, if i think of this more...
Isn't that how censorship works?
They block access to everything what makes them look back
And when people ask "wtf" they reply with "are tou plotting with enemy to spread misinfo?"

[dire igloo]

Yup, easy to digest and "hooks" people (polarizes them)

[wanton orchid]

"I'm not at all going to hurt you"
(start to hurt you)
you start to fight back
"see that's why we have to hurt you, all you are doing is trying to fight us anyway"

[soft bloom]

The idea that there only 2 dominant opinions, and only 1 is valid, while the holder of other must be forcefully neutralised (argued with, disabled, shut down, etc) is extremely dangerous
And should be equaled to terrorism .
Because psychological effects in mass are the same. Lots of stress and unrest. Not even talking that it's easy to control

[wanton orchid]

People forgot that "who's first" actually does matters

and there can be multiple first at plays in each directions

[dire igloo]

Stupid people: "I want genocide"
Smart people: "I want zero genocide!"
Enlightened centrist: "how about we compromise and do a little genocide?"
Smart people: "WTF?! NO!!!"
Enlightened centrist: "see? That's why nobody wants to debate with you, you're not open to compromises."

[wanton orchid]

any ideology is bad in the end
which extends to any active political group
actual politics are and should stay personal / individual

[dire igloo]

Zero ideology is also bad tho

[wanton orchid]

not at all

People forgot that you can learn real things

[dire igloo]

And the point of politics is to make generalized decisions - however, that should happen bottom-up, not top-down

[soft bloom]

Time to remember about "wise crowd"

[wanton orchid]

and have faith

this is personal experience and not someone else's thought based

[dire igloo]

Faith inherently comes with ideology

[wanton orchid]

it does not

I'm not saying religion

you have to develop your own

from real and ground

[dire igloo]

Stupid: "I'm your leader, here's how you have to live"

Smart: people gather in a community and decide within said community. Bigger issues get passed up one level to be discussed with other communities, etc

[wanton orchid]

not from speechs

[soft bloom]

And the Talos Principle 2 tackles somewhat similar idea by asking question "should robotic society limit it's growth or embrace new tech"

[dire igloo]

Then either your faith is worthless because it gives you nothing or you have a very narrow sense of ideology

For me, even a simple moral compass is an ideology

[wanton orchid]

ideology is movement of ideas in a group
it's when people talk about their thought as more important than actual fact they observed

[soft bloom]

Ok this convo is ever more alligned with TTP2's thopics.
Fuck it nails moral compass question

[wanton orchid]

it's not sharing of any actual knowledge

[dire igloo]

From Wikipedia:

An ideology is a set of beliefs or philosophies attributed to a person or group of persons [...].

You're using the misused version of ideology

That's not what that means

[wanton orchid]

I'm not
how do these believes spread

[dire igloo]

An ideology is simply a system of beliefs

[wanton orchid]

believing is toxic in the first place

[dire igloo]

A moral compass is an ideology

[dire igloo]

No, believing is what you do when you don't have sufficient knowledge

[wanton orchid]

you should build your trust in things instead of loosing yourself in any believes

[dire igloo]

Or when information needs interpretation to become knowledge

There is no scientific approach to deciding what is or isn't morally right

[dire igloo]

You're using a bad faith interpretation of the concept of belief and ideology

And yeah, if you limit that term to the bad stuff, then any ideology is bad

But that's simply not how the world works

[wanton orchid]

if you don't have sufficient knowledge you get try a good bet rooted in past experiences
it's still not to blindly trust
you still seek more actual information
when believing you are shortcircuiting you disregard these new informations

[dire igloo]

As soon as you're trying to answer a question of morality, it becomes a matter of ideology

[wanton orchid]

it's not lmao
it's just people have lost ground from teached ideology

a farmers knows what's good or bad for the lives of their fields from experience mostly
not from sayings, relatives thoughts or writings

writing can be gold guides on personal experience , but will never be more than that

[dire igloo]

Past experiences are a part of knowledge, just individual knowledge and not public knowledge.
They can however affect your belief system - being a war survivor can make you a pacifist.

And again, that's a bullshit definition of belief.
When believing, you are merely making a guess based on non-tangible concepts.

[wanton orchid]

believing is not just making a guess

otherwise that's called a guess

or thought or idea

[dire igloo]

Writing is merely a form of documentation. How you let an ink-stained piece of paper affect you is a matter of belief

[wanton orchid]

when you believe is you promote that guess into virtual truth

you NEVER need to do that actually