off-topic-tech

[night girder]

And we have the right to protest, so we can adjust or put pressure around laws. And you also have referendum.

[dire igloo]

no we didn't. The lawmakers we chose weren't ones that represent our interests as a whole. They were the ones that are the closest match.
Hell, most of the lawmakers weren't even voted for by anyone, they just happened to be on a list

[jagged snow]

That's a republic

[edgy hazel]

you can't. At least not here

[jagged snow]

Or a representative democracy
True democracy means that everyone would vote on every decision

[dire igloo]

plus: even if we picked direct representatives, first past the post is most commonly used and most mathematically unrepresentative.
The current UK house of representatives (or whatever it's called) is the LEAST representative it's ever been

[night girder]

Like I said, the theory != the actual reality.

I never said the system worked. But I know that's the original theory behind democracy. (dumbed down ofc, a bit more complex)

[dire igloo]

Amnesty International lists Germany as a country that suppresses legitimate democratic process protest

[dire igloo]

exactly. And while you may be right in theory, you are wrong in reality

[night girder]

All I said that one could argue, that laws are objective because the masses voted for them.

[dire igloo]

except that the systems we use are among the worst if we aim for best representation

[night girder]

So 50% + agreed with the laws

and the minority, well though luck 😂

[dire igloo]

I never voted for a law.
And the laws that I remember were voted for weren't enacted - like the disowning of Deutsche Wohnen in Berlin

[night girder]

It's not my fault lawmakers are corrupt or don't listen to the people 🤷‍♂️

[night girder]

You vote for lawMAKERS.

[dire igloo]

except those 50% aren't who voted for it

point being: the UK house of whatever that is the LEAST REPRESENTATIVE it's ever been

as in: distribution of public votes vs distribution of seats

[white kraken]

I think we should stop that politics discussion now.

[night girder]

Like, Fred from the bakery wants flour to be cheaper. Everyone votes for Fred in the hope he makes a law to make flour cheaper. Fred get's in power and makes a law to make flour cheaper. How can you say this law is not collective (objective) atleast better than a dictator would do no?

[dire igloo]

You miss the point where this isn't reality

[night girder]

waaaait ...

[white kraken]

[night girder]

are* you the moderator Deltaflyer?

[dire igloo]

anyways, let's stop politics

[night girder]

or the user deltaflyer? 😄

[dire igloo]

back to morals

[jagged snow]

Wonderful feature

[dire igloo]

there is no objective morals

[night girder]

I disagree.

[white kraken]

Do you know if there is already something known about the new iPads?

[night girder]

Apple said they will give us news this week I believe

or comming week, about new products. But not at events.

[white kraken]

For example if the Pro models will have a finger print scanner again 😉

[night girder]

ipad pro will have oled screen 🤷‍♂️

[white kraken]

Oh yeah, I read that

But I would be even happy with the retina screen

[dire igloo]

You disagree on the premise of a working democratic process which in reality doesn't work the way you think it does - even if we excluded everything that works differently from how it's supposed to work.
You base your argument on a flawed assumption

[white kraken]

As long as they have a finger print reader 😉

[night girder]

www.macrumors.com/2024/03/03/source-apple-product-announcements-this-week/

[white kraken]

Hrm hrm…

[dire igloo]

So we are left with: there is no objective right or wrong

[night girder]

Not sure if macrumors is whitelisted or not 🤷‍♂️ It's not 😂

[dire igloo]

and until someone makes an objective argument for it, there won't be

[white kraken]

I got it 😄

[night girder]

That's your interpretation or opinion yes. But I disagree 😄

[white kraken]

Hmmm, so I have to wait for the announcement

[night girder]

You happy with Apple products? or just a general interest into technology?

[white kraken]

I’m moderating Discord servers with an iPad for years. Especially the keyboard is much better compared to Samsung tablets.

And I’m looking for a replacement

[pure karma]

ipad gang

[night girder]

Back when the first iphone got released, the touch screen felt so much better than any android device back then.

[pure karma]

aka only me and delta becasue i doubt anyone else here has one lol

[dire igloo]

Three states in science: proven correct, proven false, not yet proven.
We are in the state of "not yet proven", so your statement is fine so far.

You attempted to make a point to move us to "proven it exists", but you failed.
I attempted to prove by contradiction that objective morals don't exist - if it existed, we'd have an objective way of arriving there and we'd agree at least on those. Yet there are many examples of morals disagreeing, so that can not be the case.

[night girder]

That's why I don't want to talk about. The way you discuss, I am not a fan. So judgemental 😄

"but you failed."

[dire igloo]

I remember the times of buying an iPod Touch for the sole purpose of gaming because it was much nicer to use and performed better than an android phone

[night girder]

What was the discussion we had for hours about the meaning of a word? 🤔

and I just looked up "objective", and again it has different definitions. So let's begin, what definition you talking about?

[dire igloo]

My computer science professor said it like this: "What is a proof if not one scientist convincing another of their theory"
And by that metric, you failed. You made an argument as to why objective morals would exist based on the democratic process arriving at laws - however you left aside that the democratic process is not only not working as intended, it'd still be flawed even if it did (for reasons like first past the post voting)

[night girder]

My friend. I am no scientist.

[dire igloo]

there is some form of proof at arriving there that does not involve the subjectivity of human thought

[night girder]

And I don't want to convince you, because really, I don't care that much. I have my opinion. I type it out. You agree or disagree. And that's it.

Objective: "Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices" so if that's the definition. I think one can argue you can have a objective law.

[dire igloo]

my style of discussion is this: we arrive at either of the three states I layed out earlier, then we reached a consensus either on the subject matter or that we can't agree

[night girder]

Discussions are opportunities to learn from eachother.

not meant to win.

[languid gulch]

just when i thought my old mmo couldn't get any worse, they did a major update with possibly the worst memory leak i've ever seen. maybe 15-20 minutes before you drop to 2fps

[dire igloo]

how would that objective law come into being if it can't involve prejudice or emotion? It applies to people, there will always have to be the factor of public opinion on said law

[night girder]

The same way a judge is objective.

The whole court can be full of people screaming and emotional, but normally, the judge is emotionless, rational and objective. Despise the crowd being emotional.

This can be applied to lawmakers too I believe.

[dire igloo]

which is what i was referring to: we exchange our ideas, beliefs and knowledge. Then we're left at either a consensus of "it exists" or "it doesn't exist" - or we haven't come to a conclusion, then we agree to disagree

[night girder]

So your opinion is that every law, lawsuit etc is actually subjective? Because if it's not objective it's subjective? That doesn't feel correct either.

[dire igloo]

the judge is objective because all they have to make their decision is the law - however, there can be points at which two laws might conflict, then the judge has to put in some subjective belief.

[dire igloo]

no, it can't. Because lawmaking doesn't have an objective basis to go off of

[dire igloo]

I'm saying that laws don't reflect morals and are thereby not a proof for the existence of objective morals

[night girder]

I mean it sucks for you. But little we can do.

Did you update your drivers? 😂

[dire igloo]

point in case: I believe pirating content off big companies okay, yet it is illegal

[languid gulch]

oh there's a reason i switched over to BG3 to get my D&D fix 🤣

[night girder]

What a switch 😄 Good game BG3.

[languid gulch]

& no, game's almost 20 years old, there haven't been any driver updates for it since like 2008

[dire igloo]

or: in Germany, the penalties for money forgery are higher than they are for rape. I believe this is wrong, one is a crime against economy, one is a crime against humanity. Humanity > economy.
Another one: in parts of the world, death penalty is legal. I think death should never be a punishment for any crime

So, we've reached a point: if laws don't reflect my morals, either my morals are objectively wrong or laws aren't objectively morally right

[languid gulch]

i do kinda like germany's income-based fines for traffic violations tho. should be adopted by every country

[dire igloo]

except they aren't

traffic violations according to Straßenverkehrordnung (StVO) aren't tied to the income

fines that you pay for crimes according to Strafgesetzbuch are tho

and sometimes, commiting a traffic violation is also an StGB violation

[languid gulch]

ah

i've just heard about some of the insane $$$ fines for some traffic violations

[night girder]

Btw fireworker, I just realise.

""What is a proof if not one scientist convincing another of their theory" And by that metric, you failed." You also failed 😉

Because you fail to convince me too hahaha 😂 It is what it is.

[dire igloo]

yup, I know

[night girder]

But I must admit.

I was still thinking about laws 😂

and not morals.

[languid gulch]

i like the discussion tho. usually there's something to learn

[dire igloo]

However, I have not seen you state why my argument wasn't convincing to you

[languid gulch]

now you guys need to get drunk & have the conversation again

[dire igloo]

laws are just the thing you brought in as proof of the existence of objective morals - and I stated why that isn't the case

[night girder]

Having objective morals seems impossible.

[dire igloo]

exactly my point

I even went a step further: I tried to make a point that it IS impossible

[night girder]

Although when I google around a bit, some philosophers seems to try to get the two concepts together.

but that goes above my head.

Moral universalism (also called moral objectivism) is the meta-ethical position that some system of ethics, or a universal ethic, applies universally, that is, for "all similarly situated individuals",[1] regardless of culture, race, sex, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, gender identity, or any other distinguishing feature.[2]

[dire igloo]

we could also reach the point of discussing whether objective truth could actually exist

[languid gulch]

in a tech channel 🤣

[night girder]

Objective morality is the idea that right and wrong exist factually, without any importance of opinion. It's the concept that some actions and beliefs are imperatively good or inherently bad, and that the goodness or badness of those things holds true no matter who you are or what else you believe in.1

[dire igloo]

I like the word "universalism". It means to me that while there may not be an objective way of reaching a moral consensus, we can still reach one subjectively

[night girder]

But isnt' that been discussed for ages?

Is there such a thing as true evil and true good?

[dire igloo]

I'd say: no

[charred pewter]

there is only True Gray

[dire igloo]

because objective evil implies that you know what you do is evil.
And even something universally seen as wrong like the killing of another human being (or even entire groups of humans) is still defended to be correct

[dire igloo]

True Gay™️

[charred pewter]

bleah

[dire igloo]

you homophobic or what? need I ping mods?

[charred pewter]

seriously? get the fuck off with that shit

[night girder]

He is talking about the anime. Bleach.

[dire igloo]

nah, just joking

[charred pewter]

dont go attacking someone with your values based on nothing more than a single word

i get so annoyed with that, and yes its a trigger =p

[night girder]

Oh here we go again

😄

[charred pewter]

🙂 SJW ftl 😉

[charred pewter]

what was that D&D meme someone posted the other day ... "realism"

[night girder]

@dire igloo What annoys me the most in these discussions is that when you look up words, they can have multiple meanings. Sometimes we are discussing about stuff and having different meanings in our heads, so we keep going.

[charred pewter]

was that in here?

everything has different meanings 🙂 even "everything" means something different to different people lol

[night girder]

You see objective as in "Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real" I think?

But then you also get this "Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices"

which to me, or two different meanings 😒

[dire igloo]

Yeah, that's one issue. Next thing: we both speak different languages natively, so there still might be disagreement on what things mean

[charred pewter]

morals ... is like saying "common sense" .... its all very situational/regional/societal

[night girder]

I can think about morals objectively I believe, without emotions and personal prejudices, it might not be easy and I might have to correct myself own prejudices, but give me a year or a month and maybe I can pull it off? But I cannot look at morals independent or external to the mind. I cannot disconnect from my mind.

[dire igloo]

Not really. I see it as uninfluenced by human thought - which is pretty much the same as what you think

*what you mentioned afterwards

[night girder]

You never discovered that your own mind was faulty?

[charred pewter]

if you asked a cannibal tribe in africa 'is it morally wrong to kill a human' ...

[night girder]

That a though in your head, was maybe based on predjudices?

[dire igloo]

I did - which is why I see objectivity as uninfluenced by the flaws of the human mind

[charred pewter]

thoughts are machine learning from how you grew up and were taught and by examples of those around you 😄 we are just computers

[night girder]

Yes, but we can think about what we are thinking, if that makes sense?

[charred pewter]

but can we ?

[dire igloo]

you can obtain objective truth by collecting empirical data and drawing logical conclusions. others may use the same data with different logic to obtain a different truth - or they have the same logic but different data.
In either way, there's a clear path to finding what is right. Either both are and there isn't a single objective truth or one had a flaw either in the execution of the logic (2+2=5) or had their flawed mind influence their logic or data gathering

[night girder]

Sometimes I discover myself thinking something that is not for this day and age. And I get annoyed with myself for thinking "short" or how do I say this... closed minded?

Maybe I just reflect too much 😄

[dire igloo]

In a sense, humanity is just a giant machine learning model to achieve a higher intelligence - god created humans in his image, but kinda like humans try to create a human-like AI with ML

[night girder]

Now I wonder if that's even objective. Because that can still be disproved in the future.

[charred pewter]

i wonder when we will achieve a real AI

[night girder]

Science is true, untill it's prooven it isn't 😂 So objective truth by collecting empirical data? Is it really objective?

[charred pewter]

the world was flat once

[dire igloo]

then we're reaching the discussion on whether or not objectivity can actually truly exist given everything we know and ever will know is filtered through flawed human brains

[night girder]

Yeah, because we are the observers. Or use tools that observe.

They all can be flawed.

[dire igloo]

let's say we can reach objective consensus, whether or not that is truth we don't know

[night girder]

Well, kinda? Yes. We believed it to be. Until we discovered it wasn't.

[dire igloo]

What mountain was the highest mountain on earth before Mt Everest was discovered?

[night girder]

Mt Everest 😄

[dire igloo]

exactly, people just didn't know it yet

[night girder]

and that can still be the case today.

[dire igloo]

yup

but we reached objective consensus that for now, it is the highest mountain

[night girder]

Things we 100% believe in, because we don't know any better or have been disproven.

[charred pewter]

like how physics say nothing can exceed the speed of light ..... until we figure out how to do so and prove that was all wrong too

[night girder]

still possible yup.

[dire igloo]

then there are people who use a different definition of "highest mountain" and it's no longer Mt Everest

[charred pewter]

the human mind is focused chaos

[dire igloo]

Things we believe to be proven until something or someone disproves it

"X doesn't exist" is easy to disprove, just show an X existing

"X does exist" is nigh impossible to disprove if someone ever showed an X existing

that said "sabretooth tigers exist" is in the former category despite being in the latter once

[night girder]

the more I think about it, the less I dislike objective/subjective for morals.

I would rather call it, collective.

because morals aren't really subjective (bound to the subject either)

[dire igloo]

thing is: collective just means universally subjective

[night girder]

That's was my main point for argueing that morals/laws etc are more objective than subjective.

because it's not made by one person. It's a collective effort throughout history even.

Some morals exist from roman times etc I believe.

[charred pewter]

and some laws are just ... stupid these days 😉 they may have worked for the past, but times have changed

[night girder]

and philosopers discussed together, and brain stormed.

[dire igloo]

They are fundamentally subjective because even if we assumed a perfect democracy, the way it came to be is still through human thought

[night girder]

So is that really subjective?

Also, you hade schools for philosophers in roman times even.

[dire igloo]

collectively subjective is still subjective. Objectivity is a separate process

[charred pewter]

there was also all the 'stories' passed down over generations... which have no actual proof to ever have happened or existed

[night girder]

Why can't it be collectively objective? Thinking about morals and countering emotions and prejudice. this can be done by your peer.

IF you are brainstorming about a moral, and I see a flaw in it, I can tell you "Hey, that might be a prejudice".

[dire igloo]

because objectivity doesn't need to be collective

[charred pewter]

"because they said so" is not proof

[night girder]

So we can adjust the logic and keep brainstorming.

and vice versa, if I say something wrong you call me out.

[dire igloo]

And I can respond: "No, it isn't. You are the one that's prejudiced"

[night girder]

In the end, don't we get a more objective moral than subjective? And I guess that's what philosophers have been doing for ages now.

[stray badger]

Yuzu is gone

[tough owl]

I have all 1.3gb of the source code

[night girder]

Don't forget, in the scenario I am talking about. We are coworkers. Trying to work together and not just trying to boycot eachother.

[dire igloo]

there can't be objective morals, because there is no scientific proof for morals - the scientific method being the strongest tool in our arsenal to achieve objective consensus

[charred pewter]

OH NO! ..... anyway ...

[dire igloo]

objectivity isn't a scale imo

[dire igloo]

exactly. But if you suspect prejudice in my reasoning, how can you know that there is no prejudice in your suspicion?

[night girder]

No it's not, but morals being pure subjective. it doesn't feel right. Something is wrong with it and I can't put my finger on it.

[night girder]

Nah that's a valid point you made. I can be the one with prejudice. But then we have a discussion about that.

[dire igloo]

you can reduce the impact of flawed minds, but that doesn't make it any more or less objective. It just makes it less subjective.

[night girder]

If it's less subjective it's is more objective 😉

[dire igloo]

objective means uninfluenced. reducing the influence isn't enough to make it non-existent.
1 is closer to 0 than it is to 1,000 but it's still not zero

let's talk zoology: there are more ants in the world than rhinos, yet we still agree that neither is extinct

[night girder]

So, we need AI to get objective morals?

"Something is objective if it can be confirmed independently of a mind." - wiki

[dire igloo]

AI is trained on models and training data that are made by humans

[dire igloo]

that doesn't mean AI has to be involved. Computation is enough

[night girder]

Oh, here it is. This is what I was talking about the whole time.

but wiki says it in one sentence. " Scientific objectivity is practicing science while intentionally reducing partiality, biases, or external influences."

but I applied it to morals.

[night girder]

but computers are also made by humans, with brains and prejudice.

[dire igloo]

so you are saying the process of reducing subjectivity is enough to make something objective?

[night girder]

Moral objectivity is the concept of moral or ethical codes being compared to one another through a set of universal facts or a universal perspective and not through differing conflicting perspectives.

[dire igloo]

at what point do you consider something objectively morally right or wrong?

[night girder]

Universal facts, wtf 😄

[dire igloo]

"universal" = collectively subjective

[night girder]

So moral objectivity does exist! 😂 (at least for some, else they wouldn't write it down on wiki).

[dire igloo]

if everyone agrees on something because of their prejudice and beliefs, it's still not objective

and it doesn't make those prejudices and beliefs objective

[dire igloo]

the concept of it being discussed as such does exist. I think flat earth has a wikipedia entry too

[night girder]

The thing I sometimes read while I am researching this subject, is religion.

One of the arguments is that religion is proof of objective morals. With the argument that the laws etc or send from God.

And I also wondered, what if we ever meet other lifeforms?

Like, what if they have totally different morals?

That's a different argument.

We are talking about: does objective morals exist.

The definition of objective we use is: disconnected from the mind, without prejudiced etc. Neutral and can be double checked by external things. Computers.

Ah you a non believer haha 😄

[dire igloo]

then how come people believe in different religions and even if they do believe in the same god, they believe in different interpretations?
How many christians advocate and practice the death penalty despite "thou shalt not kill"?
Also, who's to say god is objective?

[night girder]

Don't shoot the messenger. I just read it as an argument for objective morals.

And it makes sense from that point of view.

[dire igloo]

it's a fair argument to make and an easy one to disprove

[night girder]

Laws send by God, can be seen as objective morals. "Thou shall not kill."

[dire igloo]

under the assumption that god is objective

[night girder]

It's a law, not from our minds, so without prejudice, send by external something.

[night girder]

Exactly. And is perfect.

The other arguments you made about different religions, I rather not delve into that because of the server rules 😄

and we are already off topic, but religion is a big no no I believe.

[dire igloo]

also: if that law was objectively morally right, why do people exist that think killing humans is morally right despite believing in the same god with the same laws?

[charred pewter]

theres nothing objective in regards to religion, and it can only boil into arguments

[dire igloo]

yup

[night girder]

It's not because a law is objectively morally right, a person can't decide to follow it or not.

[dire igloo]

philosophy is surprisingly well tolerated despite easily delving into either of the two

[edgy hazel]

[night girder]

Didn't you say that?

[charred pewter]

🙂

[night girder]

So it's possible a law is objectively morally right (send by God) for a religious person, but they can still decide to break it and deal with the consequences.

[dire igloo]

I asked a derived question: if there is an objectively morally right law, how can you act against it believing you are morally in the right?

[dire igloo]

but then they wouldn't think they are morally right in breaking it

[night girder]

it's not what they think.

the law is objective morally right because it's from God, not from our minds.

I can break it, even if I am a believer. That's pretty logical to me 😒

[edgy hazel]

https://tenor.com/view/aaa-gif-1155116025040809968

[dire igloo]

it's the reality tho - people believe in the ten commandments and still think killing people is morally right

[night girder]

And yes you are right Fireworker.

[dire igloo]

you can break it, but if you believe in it, you wouldn't think you are morally right

[night girder]

But that has nothing to do with the law itself 😄

[night girder]

Yes, but the law is still objective morally right. It's origin stays the same. Despite what we think.

That makes it objective in the first place.

[dire igloo]

it's a mismatch with reality then

[night girder]

It doesn't matter what we think.

It's not from our minds.

We can only choose* to follow it or not.

[dire igloo]

religion can't be the source of objective morals because people disagree on morals despite believing in the same religion

[night girder]

if you follow the argument that's been made on the internet (that religion is proof of objective morals).

See, that's just how I am. When I read something like religion is argument for objective morals, I try to think from their perspective.

I am just playing the devils advocate here, not saying I agree with it, I am just trying to think, "where are they comming from with this argument? How are they thinking?"

[dire igloo]

what I said directly disproves that argument

[night girder]

I am just open minded 🤷‍♂️

I like to think from different perspectives, regardless of my own 😄

Yes, I looked up the arguments that flat earthers make for example.

Does it mean I believe them? No. I just want to understand their logic, thinking patterns.

[dire igloo]

thing is: I showed a flaw in that logic

[night girder]

Didn't I answer by saying: no, the law is still objective moral right. Despise of what the followers do with it.

[dire igloo]

Yes, you can decide whether or not to follow the objective morals. But if you do so, you can't think you are morally in the right - otherwise that'd be a contradiction

[night girder]

The whole thing about being objective is that we know humans will disagree (subjective).

[night girder]

Yeah, but does that make the law/moral suddenly morally incorrect or subjective? No!

Anyway, it's a weird twist of mind, interesting nonetheless.

[dire igloo]

How can objective morals exist if you can be morally right in going against it?

[night girder]

🤔 I don't understand you?

[dire igloo]

People believe in the ten commandments and think it is morally right to kill people.
If religion was a source of objective morals, this couldn't exist

[night girder]

The morals are objective, because they are not from our mind (the religion argument). If you follow it, all fine. If you don't follow it, it's up to you. This all, doesn't suddenly make the morals subjective. It's not who follows it that makes it objective.

the origin of the law/moral decides if it's objective or subjective.

[dire igloo]

people follow it but still believe it's okay to violate it

[night girder]

it's like if we were able to program an objective AI and it spits out laws.

if we follow it or not, doesn't change the fact, that the laws are probably objective.

but then you made the argument that it's impossible to create such an AI.

[dire igloo]

If I follow it, I can't go against it and believe I'm in the right

yet there are people that do

[night girder]

That's true. But that's your conscience to deal with.

[dire igloo]

The amount of Christians advocating for death penalty in the US is immense

[dire igloo]

In the scenario you created, the existence of a single person following said laws and not believing they're wrong causes a contradiction

[night girder]

How so?

We are flawed creatures. With prejudice. While something may 99% objectively true, still you have people who disagree.

" the existence of a single person following said laws and not believing they're wrong" I don't get this part 😒

If you follow objectively moral laws, sends from something external and objective (aliens, AI whatever). Why should you believe those are wrong? And why does this create a contradiction?

If you don't follow objectively moral/law, why would this create a contradiction?

The main problem is, this is all hypothetical for science.

But philosophy does allow hypotheticals I believe.

[dire igloo]

(hypothetical scenario)
I believe in the ten commandments. The ten commandments are objective truth because they directly stem from god.
I believe the death penalty is morally correct.
This is a contradiction.

[night girder]

Why? Maybe it is.

[dire igloo]

thou shalt not kill vs killing is okay under the right circumstances

[night girder]

Oh sorry, yes I understand you.

Ooooh. Ok, I get you now.

[dire igloo]

hell, let's make it my actual beliefs:
I believe in the ten commandments.
I believe that killing in self-defense is correct if it is the ultima ratio.

[night girder]

Yes, but I wasn't thinking about the actual commandments 😂

Because, like you said. You can disproof it's not objective.

[dire igloo]

I was bringing up an example that disproves the theory

[night girder]

Wait. No!

Yes, it can be objective "You shall not kill". (the source is objective).

What we do with is up to us.

1 + 1 = 2 right? Some say this is objective a truth?

And some will say 1 + 1 is not 2. Don't ask my why.

So the theory still stands? I don't think you need to consider the followers.

It was just one of the proofs in an article that objective morals exist. Hence religion. This doesn't take into account what followers do with it or not.

[dire igloo]

But if I believe in it, I couldn't think that killing people is correct. Yet I do.

[dire igloo]

I accept 1+1 = 2. That means I can't state that 1+1=3 and think I am correct.

[night girder]

Are you saying if it's objective a truth, it means we all accept it? And that makes it objective a truth? That's wrong. It's objective because of the source. 😒

Something is objective if it can be confirmed independently of a mind.

If a claim is true even when considering it outside the viewpoint of a sentient being, then it is labelled objectively true

[dire igloo]

No. I'm saying that if it was objective truth it wouldn't be possible for people that accept it to go against it

[night girder]

With those definitions in mind, I don't see what the issue is with this theory regarding to the followers?

[dire igloo]

this basically invalidates the discussion itself

[night girder]

It makes it all hypothetical.

[dire igloo]

religion only makes objectively morals in theory because in reality it's always filtered through the brain of a believer

[night girder]

I can agree with this definition. Conclussion.

[dire igloo]

it basically creates the point of "it might exist, but can't ever get there"

[dire igloo]

Then let me ask you this: if this is the case, does religion bring forth objective morals in reality?

This cycles back to my point: in reality, objective morals do not exist because there is no objective way to derive them.

[tough owl]

yall are still on this 2 hours later?

[night girder]

This is when I said I agree with you Fireworker 😂

[night girder]

time flies when it's interesting and fun.

[night girder]

What's your take on it kade?

[dire igloo]

yup, agree

[tough owl]

on?

i forgot the argument being made 🤣

[dire igloo]

philosophical discussions are always fun too - because you can always find some new aspect to discuss

[dire igloo]

Do objective morals exist?

[tough owl]

objective in what context

like hard things that are right and wrong?

and no gray area?

[night girder]

I accept this definition, but up to you: "Something is objective if it can be confirmed independently of a mind. If a claim is true even when considering it outside the viewpoint of a sentient being, then it is labelled objectively true." - wiki

and morals is indeed, right vs wrong. Evil vs good.

[tough owl]

so like killing can sometimes be ok in a context of war, but murder isnt ok

because killing and murder imo are two very different things

[night girder]

it would mean: killing is morally good and it's a fact. confirmed independently of a mind. (as an example)

[tough owl]

no, killing has technicalities as to why its done

murder objectively wrong

[night girder]

what about eating meat 😄

that morally good or not? Less technicalities here 😄

[tough owl]

I eat meat and I think its fine

I don't lose sleep at night about it

[night girder]

but we shall never be able to proof "independently of a mind" it's morally right or wrong.

[tough owl]

i had steaks for dinner last night, medium rare 🤤

[charred pewter]

salmon for me last night

[night girder]

I had vol au vent today :p

Do you also have that in the USA?

[charred pewter]

i'd be dead by now if all i ate was veggies and fruits

[tough owl]

I had steamed salmon once, do not reccomend

[charred pewter]

vol au vent ? in USA ?

[tough owl]

what is it in english 🤣

[charred pewter]

STEAMED salmon?

wtf is steamed salmon holy

[tough owl]

ikea salmon is disgusting

[night girder]

Yes, not sure it it's something local or not.

[tough owl]

im intruiged

[night girder]

Yes!

[tough owl]

french dish, nvm then 🤢

[charred pewter]

so ... bread bowls

[tough owl]

<@&387163995947270144> sorry for the ping and I know you see it too but someone posted an invite link like 3 times in the past 90 seconds

[night girder]

I made ticket too 😊

Probably a bot.

[tough owl]

make that 4

[charred pewter]

i ping moderator too, but didnt show up green, so i think i pinged WRONG moderator lol

[night girder]

this discord is too popular and now the bots are invading it

[tough owl]

I dont even play satis anymore 🤣

I did apply to get a 1.0 beta, mods wanna put in a good word for me :)

[charred pewter]

spammed links in general off topic about 5 times, and in media off topic

[night girder]

I played a few weeks ago, and then they announced they going to release the game in a year or so. So I quit playing it and wait for 1.0

[tough owl]

time to dump all the messages here o7

rookie numbers guys

[night girder]

this is a lie.

[tough owl]

technicalities

[night girder]

objective morality

[tough owl]

piracy....

[charred pewter]

i dunno, i glazed over through a few thousand lines of it

[night girder]

We have to steer clear from that subject I believe 😄

[tough owl]

i do not support piracy

[night girder]

Yuzu?

[tough owl]

its repo is down

reduced to atoms

[charred pewter]

Poopuu

[night girder]

2.4M Dollar to Nintendo

How are you supose to pay that 😒

[tough owl]

but would you look at that

[night girder]

a settlement of 2.4 is not a joke ... A good reason to fold.

Imagine if Nintendo would find a way to make an official emulator.

[tough owl]

imo they should've spent that amount in trying to fight it and if they lost declare bankruptcy

[night girder]

but the problem is, no matter what you do for security, they (the community) will find a way to crack that official emulator

[tough owl]

game companies need to sell old copies of their games for a reduced price on like pc or existings consoles and then thered be a lot less fuss

but I dont wanna go out buy a used console, a used game copy and just to play a game thats been out of print for 7 years

if there was a legal and affordable way to play old games then a lot less fuss would exist

[night girder]

yup

[dire igloo]

I'd love for some regulation that basically says "if a company ends support for a piece of their software, it has to be released to the public as open source software under a license that allows third parties to create derivatives" or smth like that.
Maintain your shit or have it become public property

[tough owl]

but nah we gotta pay lawyers and sue companies because theyre trying to do what nintendo wont

[dire igloo]

hell, put it in the public domain

[tough owl]

even if it wasnt a law id like to see a group of companies come together to do this

[dire igloo]

that'd also be dope

[tough owl]

if smaller companies do it with success then I think larger ones will follow suit

[dire igloo]

that said: what about old "release and forget" singleplayer titles

[night girder]

They smell the money 😉

[tough owl]

physical media is dying

bestbuy in the states no longer has physical media of movies in stores

[night girder]

To be honest, I don't rent/buy any physical media anymore. Only cd's sometimes.

[tough owl]

not a lot do, but soon games wont be shipped on bluerays either

[night girder]

I always download anyway 🤷‍♂️

even when i bought cyberpunk collectors edition, it just gave me a key.

[tough owl]

yea but you dont own it

[night girder]

I don't have have a reader.

[tough owl]

they can pull it from you with no compensation at any time

[night girder]

I know

but it gives me less clutter too.

[tough owl]

but at some point its not cost effective to do that

esp with music, its so easy to just add songs to your library and pay the same fee every month

[night girder]

music is where I draw the line.

I own all my music. I don't stream it.

[tough owl]

I have 1700 songs in my library

itd cost me $1.7k to own it all

[night girder]

CD's cost 1.99 euro sometimes. My music library is old. So I ripped my CD's way back. The rest I buy on bandcamp. Or the store.

[tough owl]

yea but streaming is just so much easier esp if you want lossless

I tbh cant really tell but maybe one day ill have a hifi setup

[night girder]

That's true. But I don't want to lose any of my music. Never. I know spotify removes songs etc.

never used it

[tough owl]

i should set aside like $20 a month to buy used/new cds of albums I like

[night girder]

It's just personal preference. Do what you like. I don't want to lose songs that's all.

[tough owl]

I mean I know they'll be around somewhere on the internet

[night girder]

Not always.

I have vinyl that I know for 100% you cannot find on the internet 😛

[tough owl]

not always but most mainstream stuff(its what I consume) will be

[night girder]

yes, 100%

[tough owl]

also some artists only publish digitally

[night girder]

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Yeah, but vinyl again does take up space.

so I buy it if I can't find on the internet or as collector item to support the band.

[tough owl]

i only know of a few places where you can buy them from

amazon or itunes

[night girder]

mp3's? You can also buy it on bandcamp.

[tough owl]

doenst have everything

[night girder]

no, but still worth a shot

normally you can yes!

let me check

[tough owl]

assuming the servers are still around

I just know itll be a dark day when itunes shuts down

[night girder]

yes, just checked and I can download them again.

[winged valley]

Old boss (actually the past 3 now) was insane so I quit last week and am now opening my own repair business lmao already got first customer today (i am working out of home and catering to fellow students mainly)

[tough owl]

only google has a tendency to kill projects

apple keeps them around for a while and still supports them just doesnt update them iirc

[night girder]

apple just killed their car project

[tough owl]

🤫

public projects

ones that consumers use

[night girder]

techcrunch.com/2024/03/02/apple-abandons-its-car-here-are-other-projects-the-company-has-killed

[tough owl]

at least they only axed like one project that was announced to my knowledge

[night girder]

yeah, look at those other projects, ever heard of em?

Vademecum

Apple prototyped an early tablet more than a decade and a half prior to launching the first iPad. In 1994, some early images of the project surfaced online, suggesting it was exploring the addition of a stylus and built-in camera. However, as former Apple executive Dan Russell discussed in a 2018 blog post, the company killed the project as there was “no market for a tablet computer” at the time.

[sage pier]

it probably would be a 20k upgrade for faster charging

[tough owl]

list is short compared to killedbygoogle.com/

[night girder]

And subscription based hahaha

pay extra monthly sub else the stupid car wont drive 😂

[night girder]

google are innovators

[tough owl]

google, acquires company
google, kills company

[night girder]

to be fair, killedbygoogle lists software too afaik.

the techcrunch is hardware.

[night girder]

Didn't see that.

Project Ara
Killed over 7 years ago, Project Ara was a modular smartphone project under development by Google. It was almost 3 years old.

Now they had something interesting going and they killed it.

[tough owl]

as most thing google makes 🤣

they didnt see the immediate profit and said nah we good

[gilded helm]

Heh heh, I remember a few people who were hyped for Stadia. None of them were really burned though.

[tough owl]

stadia was dumb

cloud gaming imo is still dumb

[night girder]

I would rather have a modular smartphone

yeah I also know someone who uses geforce now

Nvidia doesn't do ads, they make them

[sage pier]

@jagged snow are you available?

Amazon luna is also horse 💩

[sage pier]

Nvm i got it

@jagged snow i dont got it

Anyone know about networking?

[jagged snow]

I know a bit, what's up?

[low scaffold]

@sand saddle Your link has been removed. In order to combat spam, only whitelisted links are allowed on this server. If you think this link should be whitelisted, please let a moderator know.

[sand saddle]

dontasktoask.com

[sage pier]

I was using my PC and then all the sudden my internet went downMy ONT says services up and the Sy S light is blinking on my router I already tried resetting it

[jagged snow]

Can you ping google.com?

And if not, can you ping your router?

[sage pier]

What do you mean by that?

[jagged snow]

Open command prompt, type ping google.com and then press enter(on windows)

[sage pier]

Couldnt ping Google could ping my router

[jagged snow]

Then it's probably not your problem unless your router is misconfigured

Could also try running ipconfig /flushdns

[sage pier]

Router says wan link down

[sage pier]

Done

[jagged snow]

Doesn't really mean anything other than that flushing DNS cache won't do anything

[sage pier]

My isp uses mac filtering so on the weekend i needed thid new router setup i just cloned the mac from the old one to the new one if the old router hasnt been connected in a while could that reset the mac filter?

[sage pier]

Also my ont says the service is on so idk

Ill call my isp and ask

[sage pier]

Welp my isp is down

[jagged snow]

Glad you got it figured out

By the way, if you ever need to troubleshoot your net, that's a great first step

[rancid thunder]

can someone help me rq? I just need to figure out how to get coal onto my node finder thingy

[nocturne rune]

Anyone else have this problem

[jagged snow]

You're both in the wrong channel

[nocturne rune]

Be my guest and tell me where I should be.

Personaly, I consider it tech talk because I think its part of my system being borked and the game not working because of that

(for example some other apps can't open explorer because it says something about%path%)

[pure karma]

the corect channel would be questions and help

not tech talk

[nocturne rune]

Awesome!

[jagged snow]

Might be two seperate issues, but you could preface it with that
That undef/undef is just the default location and it wants you to set one manually

[nocturne rune]

How would one even go about doing that

also just curious what graphics cards do yall normally run this game on

[jagged snow]

What do you mean? I'm just saying that that would've been a good piece of info to share

[jagged snow]

6700xt

[nocturne rune]

Nice

[pure karma]

RTX 4070ti

[nocturne rune]

I run a Vega Frontier edition

[pure karma]

and a GTX 1660 super occasionally

[nocturne rune]

ever think of converting them to liquid cooled?

[jagged snow]

Not a ton of point with either of those cards

Or mine for that matter

[nocturne rune]

dont 4070s get kinda warm?

[pure karma]

not really

70C whit vram and 3D maxed out fully

[jagged snow]

It's pretty hard to characterize a specific model as kinda warm

[nocturne rune]

never been on nvidia so wasnt sure

[nocturne rune]

Noice

[pure karma]

and thats 70C on the default fan curve

[jagged snow]

Especially since the kind of temperatures you'll see in normal operation won't affect performance in the slightest

[nocturne rune]

true

[nocturne rune]

😯

[pure karma]

under most gaming use my 4070ti chills in the 50's

[nocturne rune]

Nice

[pure karma]

not half bad going from a 80C average 1660 super blowing the power limiter every 4 seconds

[nocturne rune]

Ever do heavy rendering on it?

[nocturne rune]

lol

[pure karma]

video rendering a little yea

[sand saddle]

Got a 3090

[nocturne rune]

Like 3d model rendering

autodesk fusion or inventor?

[pure karma]

yea no i dont

[sand saddle]

On average the 4070 is one of the coolest cards with a lot of overbuilt cooler models

[nocturne rune]

Never been on nvidia, so didn't know

[nocturne rune]

^

[pure karma]

yea there fairly fat for the heat they push out

[nocturne rune]

Clean setup

Mines a mess

[sand saddle]

I haven't used a lot of hardware that I know about more than the average owner of said hardware

[pure karma]

clean in what sense lol?

we dont talk about the second pc

[nocturne rune]

Cabled nicely

[pure karma]

oh deer....

[sand saddle]

Looks fine

Lets not talk about mine

[pure karma]

i mean its ok but the wires on the front will defedently get you absolutely flamed on

[sand saddle]

Okay, mine isn't the worst as far as cable management goes

[pure karma]

myn is good enough for me

its the atleast i tried kinda cable management job

[sand saddle]

If the panel goes on and it looks nice from the front I call it a job well done

[pure karma]

yup same here

[nocturne rune]

True

Personally though, I like a lil cable management

kinda like my satisfactory save, half is organized, the other is improved

[sand saddle]

Well, it needs a lil for the panel to go on

[pure karma]

if it aint broke why fix it you know

[nocturne rune]

true

[sage pier]

My internet is still out its been out for 5 hours

Is this normal for fiber?

[jagged snow]

Nope

[pure karma]

time to yell at the tech support employees

[twin dew]

Downloading can be fine.
Torrenting will not be as when torrenting you are also sharing.
So don't mix "Torrenter got into trouble with law" with "Downloading pirated content is illegal".

But I don't know what is the actual German law.

But in Finland downloading and having is fine, distributing/sharing is not. And AFAIK same is for many other EU countries.

But you cannot Torrent without distributing without modded client.

And even that will not protect from most of the torrenting blackmail letter law firms, as they just see you being in the swarm, not if you ever uploaded anything.

So in general: Don't use BitTorrent for piracy, that is illegal almost anywhere.

[sage pier]

They say its down in 3 of my neighboring towns

[pure karma]

oh well time to drop the provider lol

[sage pier]

Its either this paying 3000 or whatever to have it installed or satelite

[sage pier]

Wait its up

Finally

[pure karma]

[sage pier]

do you have 3 bands? I'm tired of my isp's bull shit

[pure karma]

idk lol all i know is it rarely goes down

[sage pier]

it seems like they somehow intertwined dsl and fiber

so both of them were out

[pure karma]

like last time i remember it going down it wasent even fully down the speeds just droped to unsusable speeds at like 10am one morning this summer

[jagged snow]

What likely happened was that the main line providing service to the entire area was damaged

[sage pier]

this is their 3rd major outage in the past 30 days

[jagged snow]

The only times I've lost network in the last two years came from someone digging without a locate and damaging the main line that serves the entire region

[sage pier]

well its weird they said some people in my area weren't affected

[pure karma]

yea the only full loses of network have been from power outages

and most the time it still stays up

[sage pier]

damn

[pure karma]

as long as your modem has power a lot of the time they will keep trying to send signal during a power outage

[jagged snow]

Yeah, my fiber has had near perfect uptime since I had it installed two years ago

[sage pier]

even in the past for a month or two I had this isp before on dsl it was down for a full day at least once a week

[sage pier]

on quantam fiber I never had an outage

[pure karma]

yea this just seems like a case of either a overloaded provider or just a bad one

[sage pier]

they said if too many people are on the network it will drop to sometimes half the rated speed

[pure karma]

oof

[sage pier]

not in my house just in general

[sage pier]

it hasn't happened yet at least from what I've noticed enough to do a speed test on since anything over 100 mbps is already so fast

[sage pier]

when I download something its at 80 mb/s for a couple seconds then drops down to 20 mb/s for the rest of the download

[pure karma]

i mean its 1AM so i have some extra network but anything over 30 for me is good

[jagged snow]

Oof, you got the bad end of american telecos

[sage pier]

oof

[pure karma]

to be fair im playing a mp game and have 2 computer on the network at the same time as the speed test but yea...

il be generous maybe 42/37 peak

seems like most of canada is dead rn anyway lol

[sharp oasis]

IPS or VA for a new monitor

I mainly play single player. And warthunder so

Oh right

www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-27-curved-gaming-monitor-s2721hgf/apd/210-axgw/monitors-monitor-accessories

[sage pier]

ips

[sharp oasis]

I have seen IPS I have IPS rn. And see that VA has a hugely better contrast ratio

3000:1 vs the 1000:1 on the IPS panel from dell

[sage pier]

don't do curved cause its almost always va and don't do 27" on 1080p

[pure karma]

does it really mater just get some 360HZ refreshrate overpriced garbage and it will probably have everything you need

[sharp oasis]

Thats a 1080 I'm talking the 1440 one

[sharp oasis]

No

[pure karma]

thats prettymuch what i did for both of my new monitors lol

[sharp oasis]

Terrible idea

I don't have money for that

[pure karma]

anything over 144hz 1440p 27inch or bellow that i can find in a store whithin a hour drive was my criteria

[sharp oasis]

I just want a nice looking monitor that doesn't make most of my image grey

I kinda hate IPS for that rn

[pure karma]

how do you figure out if you have isp or va

[sharp oasis]

I can't get a nice BLACK unless I crank gamma so far down

[sharp oasis]

Should show specs on the monitor you bought

If you have the model number

[pure karma]

idk were the freaking box went

[sharp oasis]

Yeah fuck no

Fuck ips

Sure response time is nice

But I already handle motion blur like a champ

(I can turn that stuff on Max and not have a problem)

I want the colour

[sage pier]

Theres ghosting

[pure karma]

i dont think it says anywhere

[sharp oasis]

The increased blur effect yeah

Unless its that bad

Might just go oled then

[pure karma]

there VA

[sharp oasis]

There's a VA with the responds time of a IPS

[pure karma]

along whit a whole lot of other stuff

[sage pier]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monitors/s/S1SkV3tHpL

[sharp oasis]

Fuck

Oled it is then

[pure karma]

XD

[sage pier]

@twin dew how much would it cost for an isp to install fiber in my house when they dont have it in my area?

[sharp oasis]

I want dark. But not smeared

[twin dew]

VA has black smearing (very bad response time at the dark end)

[sharp oasis]

Ahh

There appear to be some faster VA monitors I can buy

[pure karma]

i havent noticed smearing but i have noticed the HDR dosent work

[sharp oasis]

Advertised 1ms responds time

I'm assuming thats peak

And not all the time

[sage pier]

Usually yes

[twin dew]

Yeah, the marketing "spec" doesn't really matter

[sharp oasis]

Yeah

Yeah doesn't matter

[sage pier]

1.5k to 3k

Damn

[sharp oasis]

Those monitors are specced the same in Tue reddit post

[twin dew]

VA has mostly catched up to IPS, but the dark end hasn't.
So for example scrolling black & white causes it to smear badly..

Where as with IPS you can read the text still.

Same with dark in games, camera movement causes everything to smear.

[pure karma]

ohh yea i kidna see that

[sharp oasis]

Yeah

I might see if I can hunt an oled

[pure karma]

things like fast scrolling text apears double

[sharp oasis]

But it looks to be hyper expenaive

And thats not money I have.

So guess I get to play on a 4k oled TV then

[pure karma]

well arent thoes like $10K

[sharp oasis]

No

(Its already in the house might as well use it)

[pure karma]

wait no the super expensive ones are Qled right?

[twin dew]

And if you get white text on black background and scroll, you just get blurry smear.

[sharp oasis]

Thats this one

[pure karma]

yea thats what i noticed when you said scrolling

[sharp oasis]

Qdoled Samsung 4k

Or I just stick to my shit 1080p panels.

[twin dew]

So for most uses that VA bad point doesn't matter, but will be annoying at desktop for some, and can cause issues in games that aren't always bright.

[pure karma]

to be honest i dont even really notice it much unless im particularly seeking for the issues

[sharp oasis]

Yeah so nope

Might see if I can get a IPS thats got some really good color accuracy

I seek to remove the grey from my gaming.

I hate it.

[pure karma]

then remove grey from the color range

[sharp oasis]

Thats not posssible

The monitor can't dim itself low enough.

So I get grey instaid of black.

[pure karma]

https://tenor.com/view/life-gif-24699933

grey

well technically more black and white but yea....

[twin dew]

Have you lowered the backlight brightness to sane level?
But that is still the bad point of IPS, that the contrast ratio is lower than VA.
Of course TN is just horrible in comparison.

[sharp oasis]

I have lowered the brightness to the point stuff is barely visible

And its still grey

[twin dew]

And it can be that the current monitor just has even more horrible contrast ratio.
Bad monitors had 1:400 or even less.

In actuality, not the marketing spec

[sage pier]

from experience all va panels I've tried are very grey instead of black

[twin dew]

The IPS monitors I have, have been black enough when not in completely dark room.

With 1000:1 official spec for contrast.

And when calibrated to 120 nits brightness.

[sharp oasis]

Apparently my phone has an infinite contrast ratio

[twin dew]

OLED has, as the black pixel turns completely off.

[sharp oasis]

Ohh why can't other displays do that

[twin dew]

Because with any other tech you have backlight that is always on, and the panel just modulates the light that is allowed through.

[sharp oasis]

Right

[twin dew]

And for example my current main displays, I have the max brightness at 120cd/m^2, and the minimum brightness at that is 0.01cd/m^2.

[sharp oasis]

I've seen someone mod a panel to have two phases.

[twin dew]

That is the point of "local dimming", as in multiple backlight zones that can be individually controlled

[jagged snow]

Not entireloy true, most modern displays have zoned backlights

[twin dew]

With over 1000 zones in the best ones.
And anything less than 400 is just useless gimmick.

[sharp oasis]

Any reccomendaions for monitors

Preferably 1440p

[twin dew]

www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/group-that-claimed-it-stole-data-from-epic-admits-it-didnt-happen-epic-says-the-whole-thing-was-a-scam/

[night girder]

Yeah, I had a hunch. Just based on how many websites did not report it. I knew something was going on here. And that epic didn't contact it's users.

Because if it's a real hack, it's only normal they contact their community to say what is happening.

[dire igloo]

I can totally see epic being a dogshit company and not telling their users anything unless they absolutely have to

[night girder]

<@&387163995947270144> here we go again, someome linking and taging @ everyone.

[white kraken]

Already got banned, but most likely the API had the messages already

[night girder]

Interesting to know, didn't know they could be send delayed to backend.

[white kraken]

They just spam the API with the messages, and could get rate limited.

If they get banned in between, I could imagine that the other messages are still delivered

[night girder]

Yeah, but I though discord API with have better protection against this 😉

nonetheless, thanks for the help 👍

[vapid heron]

you could be surprised how lacking some of the features are of the platform

[nimble cargo]

Quite lacking in some aspects. :/

[mental oriole]

Still lacking proper proper message time format...

[vapid heron]

the time format is still missing at <t:1709642100:F>

[mental oriole]

I was regarding to the message timestamp not following os setting.

[twin dew]

Always US format...

🤮

[white kraken]

Huh?

If you change your client language to UK, you will have a proper time format 😉

And still an english client

[twin dew]

I'm not using client, I'm using browser.
And changing the top language didn't change anything.

[white kraken]

And you can‘t change it in your user settings?

[twin dew]

Ah, there

Yeah, was just checking.

Still wrong, but less wrong.

[white kraken]

Hehe

Whats wrong now?

[twin dew]

I'm using ISO dates and times in OS.

And I'm not going to switch to Swedish client for that...

[white kraken]

2024-03-05 14:24:23 ?

[twin dew]

Yup.

[white kraken]

Hrm

Havn‘t looked for that kind of date setting

But there are some nerds at Discord, maybe they have it.
Let me ask

[twin dew]

But why the fuck do they have separate selection and not just use whatever the user has set...
When the javascript functions to do that are as easy/hard to use as hardcoding.

[white kraken]

🤷‍♂️

[twin dew]

But even getting 24h clock was big bonus

[white kraken]

Glad that I was at least able to help a bit 🙂

[vapid heron]

try submitting a feature request, they may go it in 6-13 years

[vapid heron]

ull see it on better discord before its on the actual platform

[charred pewter]

ring chair planet bullet dirt girder taco

[tough owl]

www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/aws-acquires-talens-nuclear-data-center-campus-in-pennsylvania/

[mental oriole]

Go figure.

https://tenor.com/view/fail-as-a-team-team-fail-sinking-ship-salute-sinking-ship-salute-fail-gif-22700399

Uboot be like above

[steel peak]

Iso6401 gang

Wait I think I rmb that wrong

8601

[sand saddle]

What country were you from? What's your budget?

For gaming, yes?

[sharp oasis]

Canada. $200-300 and yes gaming

[sand saddle]

What's your current monitor?

[wooden vessel]

at that price you can get high refresh, high response or high resolution. which of these is most important to you

[sand saddle]

high is subjective
And you want low response times, not high

[wooden vessel]

of course, you know what i mean. @sharp oasis what is your priority

[sharp oasis]

No clue some Asus one. Its old

[wooden vessel]

big, fast, high res, image quality pick one

[sand saddle]

This is fine: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/DR4Zxr/viewsonic-omni-vx2728j-2k-270-2560-x-1440-180-hz-monitor-vx2728j-2k

[sharp oasis]

Might

Bet

[dire igloo]

Worth the $20 you save vs G272QPF?

iirc it has bad color accuracy

Nvm, I was thinking about the 24" FHD one

[sharp oasis]

Its HDR more gpu intense or no

[sand saddle]

It's not HDR

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/822968613815189534/1213984603350761503/image.png?ex=65f77644&is=65e50144&hm=a2b976cee73f8d60441b2ba73c8a1c8e4ceaae1708d388b22a7e6faff4201d8a&

[edgy hazel]

In that price range HDR isn't a thing

[dire igloo]

With edgelit LCD, HDR isn't a thing

[sand saddle]

And even HDR500/600 are questionable

Sometimes it looks better, sometimes it doesn't

[dire igloo]

is that the official VESA spec?

[wooden vessel]

yes, the HDR spec is "sometimes it looks better"

oh ffs. https:// displayhdr.org/performance-criteria-cts1-1/

if the screen doesn't do local dimming, forget about it

[twin dew]

Local dimming with 350+ zones or OLED really for good quality result.

[wooden vessel]

it's not a $500 problem, considering how eyes work

[dire igloo]

welcome to the world of HDR

[tough owl]

We love hdr400-1000

[edgy hazel]

whooo

[sharp oasis]

The process of me moving up a cpu

[pure karma]

huh? moving up the cooler or the CPU itself?

[sharp oasis]

Nope

Removing the cpu from that cooler

And moving this cooler to my new cpu

A 5800x

[pure karma]

oh ok yea

from the way you phrased that i though you meant you where in the process of trying to move the whole cpu socket up

[sharp oasis]

Oh God I hate the mobo bios

@pure karma I'm not gonna hit 4.9ghz all core on ait

Air

Not on this cpu.

[pure karma]

probably not

[sharp oasis]

Its too hot for that

It does preform good tho

[pure karma]

literally my 13700K in a nutshell

its not gonna be happy doing it but its still gonna do it whether it likes it or not

[languid gulch]

you mean THE RIGHT WAY

(kidding btw, i wish we'd switch over to what just about everyone else uses)

[pure karma]

i dont mind the US format only because it makes more sense as my discord resets to french like every other week because its location based somehow

get rid of the year and it makes perfect sense

tuesday the 5th (of march) at 8:35

[gilded helm]

I sort my set history YYYY:MM:DD, including preceding zeroes.

[pure karma]

my dates are all over

my main pc is YYYY:MM:DD

my second pc is MM:DD:YYYY

and i think my school computer is DD:MM:YYYY

[languid gulch]

yea, i think if you ditch the year, it's easier to write out "march 5th" instead of "the 5th of march". also that stuff showed up around the time telegraph communications were taking off, & they charged by the letter, so it 100% would make sense for americans to do the cheap option over the formal option 🤣

also don't discount the need to do it differently from the English just to annoy them 😛

[pure karma]

at that point just ditch the month all together

tuesday the 5th at 8:35

boom problem fixed

[charred pewter]

i like y-m-d because it 'sorts'

[languid gulch]

looking at image file names from stuff like my phone, i'm starting to like that better too

[charred pewter]

yah, all my photos are named with yyyy-mm-dd in front for that very reason, because i cannot rely on file creation dates to NOT CHANGE ON ME because i moved them from machine to machine, or nas, or cloud or whatever

[languid gulch]

plus time!

[sharp oasis]

And found out warthunder is too cpu intense now

And I actually needed the 5800x

As holy heck that helped frame drops a boatload

Went from 30-40 1% lows

To 64fps 1% lows

With a new mobo and cpu

I do think the mobo had some effect

Being gen3
On an X8 card

[languid gulch]

oof

[sharp oasis]

I know the gpu is clearly still holding me back from 1080p 75

But the cpu has helped

I'm assuming warthunder Has gotten more cpu intense over the past few years

[languid gulch]

yea my cpu is definitely the weak spot now, but it should still be mostly fine for the next couple years

[sharp oasis]

I with a tiny bit of pbo tuning was able to hit 4.8ghz and 16k pts for the 5800x on cbr23mc

[pure karma]

yea its kinda crazy how cpu bottlenecked games became so fast

[sharp oasis]

but yeah my 8 cores are actually helping a TON RN

mc feels faster

[pure karma]

like i can think of 3 games that i own just off the top of my head that i cant get over 20fps in even whit a 13700K

[sharp oasis]

this is what a few % faster

and a higher bin

[pure karma]

you cant win over minecraft lol

[sharp oasis]

tho a fussy mem controller

[pure karma]

what version java or bedrock

[sharp oasis]

java

[pure karma]

yea your defedently not gonna win then haha

[sharp oasis]

ehh its nicely better then the 5600

alot less render time for 32 chunks

(gpu is still bottleneck here)

6900XT will fix that

[pure karma]

the fact you can even render 32 chunks is surprising

[sharp oasis]

i was able to do that on a 5600

a bit slower

[pure karma]

because i cant... i can do 96 on bedrock and 16 on java

[sharp oasis]

once i get the 6900XT i should be able to render 32

[pure karma]

bedrock is still by far superior for a vanilla experience

for shaders or mods or servers java is everything

[pure karma]

at 30fps+ probably at 60fps eehhh.... idk

[sterile plinth]

what's the minimum budget I should spend on a mic arm so it does not Break down in the first month

[sharp oasis]

I like Java for shaders

I'll be soon able to keep kinda close to your system

Mabey a bit faster on gpu
But slower on cpu

[pure karma]

same but playing at 20fps gets kinda inconvenient after a while

[sharp oasis]

I might not have skill issue system ig

[pure karma]

idk i guess my 4070TI just dosent like shaders or the shaders i use are just more intensive

[sharp oasis]

I use seus renewed

[pure karma]

i also use seus so yea idk

[sharp oasis]

Do you use PTGI

Or renewed

[pure karma]

renewed

[sharp oasis]

Same as me

Tho. You said 4070 or 4070TI.

[pure karma]

TI

[sharp oasis]

As if 4070TI your like 13% faster then my 6900XT that I'm getting

(I can't catch up BC no overclocking)

Psu too small

[pure karma]

i also cant overclock for 2 reassons the cards not overclockable and my psu is also too small

[sharp oasis]

It is ocable

But yeah psu too small

I feel that

Tho my new mobo kinda negates the need for psu cable extensions

[pure karma]

i dident use any extensions either just decided to wing it

[tough owl]

https://fixupx.com/mishaalrahman/status/1765066883441758252?s=46

[sharp oasis]

I seem to be unable to clock any faster then 4750mhz

Even with voltage offsets

It seems to get too hot and (not throttle) but lose pref

[gilded helm]

Agreed. I'll be interested to see who it is that was using this?

[tough owl]

i think it was in canada, was in NA, but dont quote me

[tough owl]

wonder if amazon was like nah we good and didn't want to be associated with windows like that

[pure karma]

yea thats a issue im running into aswell my cpu drops like 1000MHZ bellow its core clock fairly often even tho its still well within temps

[tough owl]

if I were to buy an nvidia gpu. do i buy a 3060 with more vram, or do I buy a 4060 with less vram and av1

i already megahertz

[gilded helm]

Do you have a use for AV1?

[tough owl]

id like to adopt it, phone can decode it

but also framgen on the 4060, and prices are kinda similar

[gilded helm]

THere are so many 8GB GPUs that have been released, devs will have to support it for a while. So it's not ideal, but I wouldn't necessarily worry too much about 8GB.

[tough owl]

but id also have to find a buyer for my rx 7600

[pure karma]

games cant use vram that dosent exist therfore why give them any lol

[gilded helm]

There's an open box 4060 TI 16GB on Newegg for $360.

[tough owl]

id go sff too while upgrading/sidegrade

that lp 4060 is appealing

[pure karma]

games really dont need that much vram

[gilded helm]

You can run the 4060 Ti at a lower power target if you want. It probably would do just fine at 75W

[tough owl]

size is the issue not power

[pure karma]

i remember doing a experiment on FH5 a while back and the vram recommendations are completely pointless to folow

it recomends 8gb or higher

but you can play whit no issues on 6gb

you can play whit minor issues on 4gb

and i even got it to work on 2gb just textures start having some issues

[gilded helm]

It's kinda small? 🤷
https://www.newegg.com/zotac-geforce-rtx-4060-ti-zt-d40620f-10smp/p/N82E16814500564R?Item=N82E16814500564R

[pure karma]

ehhh not that small

[gilded helm]

idk how small is too small, but that's a solid deal

[tough owl]

and the leap from 4060 to 4060ti is how big?

[pure karma]

really anything thats dual fan is what should be the market normal

but you know... that fell in the water fairly fast

[gilded helm]

4060 is 83% of the 16GB 4060 Ti according to Techpowerup.

[tough owl]

oh this is a 16gb too

[gilded helm]

Not that TPU is perfect, but it's a decent enough glance.

[pure karma]

wow i really dident think the 4060 was quicker than the 2080 super but dang whit how much crap people where talking i was expecting them to be a lil worst

[tough owl]

what is asrock doing

[sharp oasis]

im not

im 5c from TJMAX

[jagged snow]

How quickly can we make this port break?

[maiden coyote]

It's not quite apples to apples

[gilded helm]

Oh, certainly not. It's particularly bad with mobile GPUs, because the low power ones muddle the averages.

And then I have no idea how they weight 1% lows versus average and stuff like that.

Honestly, the full power 3080 16GB laptop GPU might be the best comparison point for the 4060 Ti 16GB.

[sharp oasis]

1.428 peak voltage for a 5800x safe

[jagged snow]

Yeah, proabably

Woudn't push it above 1.4 if you're planning to run it long term

[sharp oasis]

I am planning long term

Oh

Thats normal

Its under light load so its ok

[tough owl]

browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/5191567

[sharp oasis]

I'm getting hot hot hot rn

90c max

[jagged snow]

Then I'd keep that platform at 1.35

[sharp oasis]

So I did do some looking up

Its apparently very normal for the 5800x to boost to 1.45

Under very low load

[jagged snow]

Interesting

[sharp oasis]

And thats apparently out of box behavior

Odd.

[jagged snow]

Shouldn't do that oob unless pbo is enabled

[sharp oasis]

This is with pbo. And according to the help I got from official amd discord. The cpu is running as intended

Odd

[jagged snow]

With pbo, that should be okay

For short durations, that won'd cause much harm

[sharp oasis]

Static yeah hell naw

[sharp oasis]

Its that high for like less then a 10th of a second at low load

[jagged snow]

Static 1.35-1.375 is pretty typical for that platform iirc

[sharp oasis]

Yeah

Holy heck. No way

[jagged snow]

Oh yeah, that's not an issue
Chips will do that to maintain stability during clock fluctuations

[sharp oasis]

3800mhz stable with a 4x8 hynix c die kit

I didn't know X570 was that beneficial for 4 dimm ocs

[sharp oasis]

Aight

[languid gulch]

k, speculation time. in 2 years will AM5 still be AMD's platform?

[jagged snow]

Gonna go with yes