off-topic-tech

[twin dew]

Would fit the VSOC caused IOD damage.

[languid gulch]

i still feel like programmers create acronyms as dirty as possible while still officially publishable. because that looks too much like FUCK to be a coincidence

[twin dew]

Fabric CLocK.

CLK for Clock is very common.

[languid gulch]

so they could have gone with FACK

[twin dew]

clock as in frequency signal.

[languid gulch]

oh i know

[night girder]

But is there a way to know if it's CPU or Mobo? 😒

or only solution: replacing them.

[languid gulch]

but it's like the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. PNAS

[jagged snow]

I'll still do it for bulk storage... it's pretty hard to beat the ability to buy an 8tb drive for under $100

[twin dew]

By trying to get CPU RMA replacement?

[jagged snow]

The price gap is closing though, gen 4 drives are getting very affordable at 4tb

[languid gulch]

for the moment, but i think by the time these drives start having issues, solid state storage capacity will be big & cheap enough

[twin dew]

Ask the CPU seller first.
And if that doesn't work, then I can help you try to get direct RMA with AMD like I did.

[languid gulch]

yea, my gen 3 4TB drives were like $140 each

[jagged snow]

I think there's potential for another big breakthrough in data density on hdds, but I honestly don't see them dropping in price too much further than they already have

[languid gulch]

4/5 years? imagine 16tb drives for that price

[jagged snow]

At the very least I'd expect 8tb nvme drives to cross below the 200 dollar mark within 4-6 years

[languid gulch]

at least for HDD, yea. just the base manufacturing of the parts is probably $50

[jagged snow]

I'd wager it's significantly lower than that, but they have to make margins somewhere still

[languid gulch]

i wonder if shipping cost is factored in

[night girder]

mhm ... then I don't have a PC. I have to think about this.

Another path is: I was interested in the 7800X3D, wait for a sale and buy it. Then replace CPU.

[languid gulch]

AM4 came out in september 2016. i'm starting to feel old

over 7 years later & AMD is still putting out new cpus for it

[jagged snow]

Yeah, that's actually pretty cool

The even more impressive part is that the 5800x3d is still in the top 5 gaming cpus

[languid gulch]

i think that's proof that fat cache is probably the future

[twin dew]

Just for bad code, like most games are.

[jagged snow]

Oh absolutely, especially considering how cost-effective it is

[twin dew]

Not really, SRAM hasn't gone down in size much in last process shrinks.

So large cache takes humongous amounts of die area.

[jagged snow]

To be fair, games are by far the most complex applications that most people interact with on a regular basis and development times would skyrocket if you expected them to write perfectly clean & optimised code

[languid gulch]

relative to spending the time to not have crap code, i bet it's cheaper 🤣

[jagged snow]

It's stacked on top of the die though, that's the entire point of amd's approch
the actual size of the chip doesn't have to grow significantly

[jagged snow]

And that's only true to an extent

IMO that mindset tends to come from senior devs that have been working at the same software company since they started as a junior working in cobol

[twin dew]

Mainly meant the lack of intentional cache/memory management.
To keep the hot data in the CPU cache intentionally by using certain access patterns etc.

[jagged snow]

Oh yeah, that's entirely valid

Although I expect with something like satisfactory it's simply not feasible to keep all the important stuff in 15mb of l3

[charred pewter]

google should add to its google images, an ai generation tool where anyone can just plug in phrases to generate images 😄

https://tenor.com/view/angry-what-inside-out-mad-rage-gif-9359694

[visual tree]

Just saw an ad from a small local ISP where they mentioned a speed of 1000 Mb/s in the title and then 1000 MB/s in the description

As an ISP, you should know the difference between Mb/s and MB/s....

[fringe ivy]

ISPs yes, but the ad people? very rare.

[jagged snow]

But their marketing team didn't

My isp accidentally labeled 1 gigabit service as 1GB/s

Afaik they resolved it pretty quickly but it was still funny

There's absolutely no way they were offering 10Gbit service for under 100/month

[fringe ivy]

https://tenor.com/view/yet-yet-neil-degrasse-tyson-startalk-not-yet-yet-gif-21988240

[visual tree]

Where can I find this ISP so I can download all the games that exist on steam servers?

[jagged snow]

They're pretty small and actually do provide excellent service now
They used to be terrible but they dumped a massive amount of money into running all of the fiber for the entire couty(except one mainline from a major telecom) and they no offer consistent symmetrical gig to the home for $80/month

Which is a masive improvement considering that before they did that the fastest plan avaliable from any isp was 22mbps

(and it was the same price too)

They only serve a few thousand people, but it's fast & reliable ftth

[fringe ivy]

That's pretty nice. I am currently at 500 Mb symmetrical for that same price.

[visual tree]

*cries in GPON

Well, not crying in GPON atm because I still have vdsl 🤣

[fringe ivy]

Once there is more fiber competition here, the pricing should go down.

[visual tree]

There are 2 ISP's who want to cover my city with fiber here (I work for one of them lol)

My colleagues from the acquisition are trying to obtain as much as consent from apartment owners as possible so we can cover the apartment buildings (you need at least consent from 50% of the apartment owners)

I hope this is not one of those discoveries where they hype up everything and you later completely forget about the discovery.... https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/192tkrg/new_material_found_by_ai_could_reduce_lithium_use/

[twin dew]

So we are now at the point that anything ML-based is now AI?

[tough owl]

Yes

[visual tree]

They even call excel formulas AI these days

[tough owl]

gotta love simplicity

[fringe ivy]

"Wait, you use programming in Excel? Gotta be AI!"

[visual tree]

Wish I knew VBA in excel. Mostly, I just extract data from SAP and then use Pivot table to get the info I need

VBA would be very useful in some cases

[west mantle]

Careful what you wish for. VBA is a pain in the***

[fringe ivy]

I created a template in Excel VBA that I could paste an email into, It would pull the data into a report and after entering a few fields would send an email. I guess that is AI.

[charred pewter]

so have you noticed the 'reaction emoji' that discord randomly switches too when you hover of it ... is never actually in the list you can select yourself? they are all different ...

like where is this one ?!?!

[visual tree]

Party breaker

[fringe ivy]

That one looks like it might be from a different server

[charred pewter]

you know, i wouldnt even call excel formulas ML even

[charred pewter]

i checked each server, and none of the ones it randomly flips too is on any of them... its so weird

its like discord came up with different versions of the basics... just for the purpose of trolling you when you hover over the lower right corner 😄

[visual tree]

Not sure why discord implemented that. Doesn't really make any difference imo

And I just learned about that feature from you lol

[charred pewter]

right, you cant even say "go ahead and use the random one you flipped too"

[fringe ivy]

I see what you mean now. That is dumb...

[charred pewter]

glad im not the only one!

[visual tree]

I bet nobody even noticed the "feature" (including myself)

[charred pewter]

haha

ive noticed it for a long time, but i never bothered to "notice" until now when the emojis it was using wernt even in the damned list to choose from

lets hope it doesnt mean they plan on changing the default base emojis to those ugly ones its now flipping randomly too!!!

[visual tree]

Speaking of AI, here is a music video with some weird AI-generated video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfa4fjXc_10

[charred pewter]

i mean if you want trippy shit... ai is def the way to go

and with just how much 'content' is out there these days... ai can easily have a heyday melding stuff up

[visual tree]

And I thought my dreams were weird 😅

[charred pewter]

coulda done without the text .... kinda ruined it

[visual tree]

Yeah

[charred pewter]

my dreams are never subtitled 😉

[visual tree]

I wonder what would happen if AI created videos from people's dreams

Because nothing in my dreams make any sense lol

[charred pewter]

everything makes sense in a dream until you realize you are in a dream, then you start poking holes in all the flaws

then you wake up cause its like "for fucks sake already"

[visual tree]

My worst moment is when you think you have woken up from the dream and then you realize you are probably still dreaming because you saw something supernatural

and it just keeps going

[charred pewter]

i usually end up trying to take control of things before i wake up ....

[visual tree]

I just scream at monsters and hyperventilate

[charred pewter]

lol

[charred pewter]

=p

[visual tree]

Comcast was once considered the most hated company in USA

If that helps lol

[visual tree]

Theoretical limit is 100 meters

Worst is when some modem arrives with cat5 (not cat5e) cable and technician takes the extra cable and gives it to a customer who has a gigabit modem

I have Asus RT-AC85P

It was the only asus router in the store and decided to pick it up

[mental oriole]

The discord custom ones look creepy AF. Almost worse than MS teams version.

[languid gulch]

so when a spec like thunderbolt says it can handle 240W, does that mean it can do it 100% of the time?

[gilded helm]

Yes

Though I think TB5 minimum is 140W?

[languid gulch]

& i assume that it can either do 240W or data, not both 240W AND data at the same time

[gilded helm]

That would seem to defeat the purpose of some of the docks I recall reading about? I thought I recall 140W TB docks that power the laptop and add connectivity through one cable, but I could be misremembering.

[languid gulch]

that's what i was thinking, feels like it'd be too much for a skinny cable like that

ok if they don't call this thing the Borzoi i'm gonna be really mad

[pure karma]

anyone know how to disable a iGPU

starting to get really anoyed of it running as a second GPU even tho theres nothing plugged into it and stutering the living hell out of everything

[jagged snow]

It shouldn't be stuttering anything

[pure karma]

prettymuch SLI microstuters

its being used as if its a second dedicated GPU when its not

point is i want to know if its posible to disable it so it stops doing that...

[jagged snow]

You're not plugged into the motherboard display output are you?

[pure karma]

nope

dp 1 and dp 2 on the gpu

[jagged snow]

Then in that case it's not possible that it's behaving as you're describing

The most likely case is that Windows is offloading hardware-accelerated tasks to the igpu instead of the 4070ti while gaming... which can only help

[pure karma]

well its not its also spiking cpu idle load like hell

[jagged snow]

You're blaming irregular CPU load on your igpu?

[pure karma]

il send you a picture of the back io because you probably dont believe me...

and im blaming ram on that cpu load but il get to that in a second

thats the back io

now about the stuters im not denying it could be ram instability but its odd that everytime i notice it not only is the IGPU on but my CPU is in the shit

like 50% all core load kinda in the shit on a 13700K

[jagged snow]

I honestly have no clue what that is intended to mean

[pure karma]

yea i see that...

[jagged snow]

Can you explain with less slang?

[pure karma]

to put it in the simplest of terms

every single time that i see games stutering

the IGPU is running for no reasson

my ram looses all stability

and my cpu spikes from like 4 cores at max to all cores at around 50% ussage or more

my theory is that the IGPU is causing extreme stability issues

and i was asking if its posible to disable it

[jagged snow]

Highly unlikely

[pure karma]

and if so how

[jagged snow]

Correlation is not causation

[pure karma]

well it shouldent be running at all so its a good start point?

[jagged snow]

I just explained why it would be used

[pure karma]

but i dont want it to be used because it causes stability issues

[jagged snow]

But utilization of your gpu shouldn't directly impact CPU usage and certainly can't cause memory instability

When you say stability issues, what do you mean?

[pure karma]

mostly stutering and every single thing i have open turning into a slideshow like chrome or firefox or reallly any browser even task manager whenever i had it on my side screen

[jagged snow]

Earlier you mentioned microstutters, is that just something you feel or are the 1% lows actually dropping?

[pure karma]

probably actually droping

some of them are like good 1 to 2 second freezes even sometimes

[jagged snow]

Probably? Test it objectively

[pure karma]

idk i dont have anything to test 1% lows

[jagged snow]

Rtss will do it, but actual freezes like that are definitely a problem

[pure karma]

these two im guessing right?

[jagged snow]

Yup

[pure karma]

guess i just missed them

would benchmark loads work or do i just have to play something until it starts dying again

probably game load cuz i havent seen stuters in stuff like 3D mark

[jagged snow]

That depends on weather it does it in benchmarks or not

How often does it happen?
If you're getting multi-second freezes the lows don't really matter though

[pure karma]

fairly randomly for sprints at a time like right now its perfectly fine

but im testing a fairly low stress game to start off whit

[jagged snow]

Well, if you want to disable your igpu you should be able to look up instructions easily enough

[pure karma]

seems ok whit games right now but as soon as i open a browser it just slows to a creep

or really anything thats ussing ram at a decent rate it seems

[jagged snow]

Ram or hardware acceleration?

[pure karma]

whats the difrence

[jagged snow]

One is a method of offloading computation for an application to the gpu, one is a system component

[pure karma]

ram then

[jagged snow]

Why do you say that?

[charred pewter]

you know, i put a tiny dot of silicon right in the groove, and its shut up completely

[stray badger]

Almost certainly

[jagged snow]

I hate this so, so much https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2024/01/film-studios-demand-ip-addresses-of-people-who-discussed-piracy-on-reddit/

[languid gulch]

can't they do something like claim litigation abuse or frivolous lawsuits since this kind of thing has happened numerous times before & has been slapped down every time

"The studios argue that the information requests do not implicate the First Amendment and that the rulings around the two aforementioned subpoenas are not applicable because the new subpoena is only about IP address logs and not other user-identifying information."

"we're saying it's not about identifying them while clearly asking for identifying information"

asshats

either that or the lawyers are geniuses for getting big studios to pay them for useless work

LOL or could you imagine if the courts let it thru, then you'd have god knows how many other court cases cite it as precedent that IP addresses somehow don't count as identifying information, & whatever implications that has for their cases

[twin dew]

Somewhere in the MB BIOS.

For my AM5 Asus board: Advanced mode, then Advanced/NB Configuration/IGFX Multi-Monitor.
My ASRock AM4 boards seem to not have it in the ASRock menus at all, but under AMD CBS which will work with any manufacturers AM4 or AM5 board.
On my old Asus Intel 4th gen MB it is under Advanced mode, then Advanced/System Agent Configuration/Graphics Configuration.

https://videocardz.com/newz/scammers-are-now-selling-rtx-4090-graphics-cards-without-gpus

[twin dew]

Because it sends some audio to the last two nonexistent speakers?

Separate sound cards (internal or external) are still a thing.
And even Creative Sound Blasters still exist, just that the Audigy branding is just for the crappiest models.

Because they are often software configurable now.
You plug something in and you get popup asking what you connected.

Yes, if you aren't using the side/back speakers in 5.1, the center one is almost useless.

[languid gulch]

i've been suspicious about product quality on just about everything that comes out of a factory, there's no way in hell i'm buying secondhand unless it's cheap, easily replaceable, & something i can physically verify in front of me before buying

[night girder]

Think I am going to look out for a 7800X3D (just in case my CPU is dying, I got backup)

Who knows. Bit in the dark here.

Just want to get a stable system is all. So we'll just keep throwing money at the build untill it's stable.

Not much I can do to get RMA I think. It's such a niche case atm.

[night girder]

Also, not sure if this is tech. But holy moly look at this nose:

It's the new X-59, supersonic and silent. Manufactured by Lockhead Martin and NASA.

Silent as in: breaking sound barrier without bang.

[mental oriole]

👀

[languid gulch]

scroll up a bit 😛

[twin dew]

With bang, but that it would dissapate to low enough volume before getting to ground level from the intended flight level.

[languid gulch]

yea, sounds like they're expecting it to be more of a soft thud than a crack

[twin dew]

"Only" 75dB at ground when it is flying at 55k ft/ 17km

As design goal

[night girder]

sorry 😦 wait what? I don't 👀 anything up I am blind.

[sand saddle]

I'm making a fire extinguisher robot as sort of an optional school project.
Can't really find a motor driver which could be controlled by raspberry pi 4 and output 18V 40A, it would be fun if the water pump could have variable speed control.
I guess just get a relay and just have on/off?

[night girder]

But that nose, it can spear someone. Also, the angle of the picture, it makes it look like it's going to tip over to the front 😂

[sand saddle]

Crazy shit

[night girder]

It looks imbalanced. I am 99% it isn't since it's NASA.

[sand saddle]

The nose is probably really lightweight

[night girder]

Yes I agree, and it's needed to break sound barier without the bang I assume.

I think it looks dope though. Futuristic. But not Cybertruck level futuristic.

[sand saddle]

Yup

[night girder]

Just me thinking from QA perspective, but do you need the water to be variable speed? Since the goal is to put out fires, I would assume you just want to spray as fast as possible to get the fire out.

Fire-Extinguishers don't have a way to adjust the pressure.

[sand saddle]

Do I need to? No
Would it be cool? Yeah

[twin dew]

Lot of PWM speed controlled motor controllers around?

[night girder]

Fair 😄

[sand saddle]

I mean the budget is coming out of an university budget, not my wallet

[twin dew]

Or any potentiometer controlled one could have the potentiometer replaced by the Pi with little extra work.

[sand saddle]

I kinda forgot how much we had, but it's a decent bit

[sand saddle]

We were thinking to control it with a PS4 controller which has pressure buttons

The programmer in the group has already gotten smth to work from my understanding

[twin dew]

So find a controller thingie that fits the the motor you are going to use, and we can look more.

On how to control that with Pi.

[night girder]

not sure if this can help golden: www.instructables.com/Auto-tracking-Water-Blaster/

The water inlet is piped into a 12v water valve that is connected to a ¼” ID x 3/8” OD vinyl tube. That in turn is connected to a ¼” barbed tubing to ¾ slip fit PVC connector and glued to a ¾” PVC water cap with a 1/16” hole drilled for the water stream.

[twin dew]

That one isn't controlling water pump, it is using mains pressure.

[sand saddle]

I can't find the controller thingie.
Raspberry pi compatible stuff seems to be quite low powered.
I mean a powerful enough relay is fairly cheap and easy, just no variable speed.

[night girder]

Just putting it out for inspiration. Thinking out of the box 😄

[twin dew]

And just toggling that on or off with simple valve.
And then low power turning ones.

[twin dew]

I meant find ANY thingie that can vary the speed of the wanted motor.
And then we see how to direct that with the Pi.

Not Pi specific thing, motor specific thing.

[sand saddle]

You mean ones which have a manual knob? Found plenty of those.

[twin dew]

Yes, most can be trivially changed to work with Pi replacing the knob.

[sand saddle]

Motor just needs enough power, it's DC

[sand saddle]

That's awesome

I don't know which motor I'll use yet, dad will get me some drill motor(most are 18V, some 24V) and we already have the water pump bought that needs a motor mounted to it.

[night girder]

Can't wait to see the end result 😄

[twin dew]

You don't need anything Pi specific.
Just anything that takes voltage or PWM input.
And most of the potentiometer ones are voltage input with 3.3V or 5.0V for the potentiometer.

[sand saddle]

That's great

I think I'll order from amazon.de ngl

[twin dew]

Post the model first, when you find suitable one.

[sand saddle]

11th May

[night girder]

Btw, anyone got advise on Prime95? What to do and what not to do?

[twin dew]

For what?
Don't run the "real" mode on possibly unstable computer?
Run the Torture Test?
What else?

[night girder]

I though that would be obvious. To make my PC crash so I don't have to wait for hours and hours in GW2.

Need a more reliable way to make my PC crash, before I can start fixing it. That's what I am thinking.

[twin dew]

Put the torture test on on defaults as first thing?

[night girder]

Since it's probably the CPU.

[pure karma]

the thing is i checked and there wasent a single thing other the The voltage control for it in the bios

its either named a completely random unrelated thing or not a option

[dark stream]

E :)

[visual tree]

@edgy hazel Finally managed to setup FTB Launcher. Just started using Xnet and it's awesome

[night girder]

image doesn't work the hell?

[dark stream]

Oh i see...

[visual tree]

Wtf is wrong with discord....

[night girder]

yes. Discord behave!

[dark stream]

Might be one of those Image Screen stuff that just does dmg to ur computer idk

Im being carefull tbh XD

[night girder]

asablic wouldn't do that 🙂

[visual tree]

Is there an image hosting site that works with discord here?

[night girder]

and if they do, I am going to develop their app. And we all know how that ends.

[dark stream]

I dont know really much about this discord yet i am new

So E i guess

[visual tree]

Ok, there is seriously something wrong with discord

[dark stream]

Discord must use .PNG

or .gpej or smth i forgo

[visual tree]

Not sure if I uploaded png before on discord

[night girder]

Just ran Prime95 torture test for 15 minuts, no crash and no errors.

[dark stream]

It must has been .Gpej u should have used @visual tree idk

[night girder]

That's normal. For a flacky system, it should hit issues around 10-15 I've read.

But for Prime95 to find errors, it's up to 24 hours.

[visual tree]

Can someone try uploading a random png image? Not sure if it's discord tbh

Yep, discord is definitely broken....

[night girder]

That's from their official documentation.

Oh, RIP discord image uploading.

Q) How long should I run the torture test?

A)  I recommend running it for somewhere between 6 and 24 hours.
The program has been known to fail only after several hours and in
some cases several weeks of operation.  In most cases though, it will
fail within a few minutes on a flaky machine. When overclocking it is
entirely feasible to run short 10-15min tests at each increase in
clock speed to quickly assess the feasibility of running at those
speeds, then run longer tests later.

And I can categorise my machine as flaky at this point

rofl, discord url is blocked on discord.

discordstatus.com

is it me, or are the emoticons also broken?

[visual tree]

Test 🤔

[night girder]

jacelul shows up as a weird emoticon

[visual tree]

I can see everything normally

[night girder]

also jacelul?

[visual tree]

Yes

[night girder]

weird, it shows up broken here. I would send a screenshot but ...

[sand saddle]

Broken for me as well

Bruh

[visual tree]

It's probably something wrong with discord. Hope they will fix the images and emoticons soon

[night girder]

they already know. check url I posted.

Investigating - We are currently investigating an issue that is preventing embedded media from loading.
Jan 13, 2024 - 06:18 PST

[visual tree]

Oh

[night girder]

I think that jacelul emoticon is uploaded on a server that's not reachable for certain people.

Not for me and gs.

Yeah, it's their Media Proxy: "Service responsible for resizing images for thumbnail display".

it's been down for 25 minuts by now. Also, it's been 4 years since this proxy has been down.

last time was december 4th 2020 for 7 minuts.

I just think it's cool that all this data is available for us 🙂

[twin dew]

What MB?

[night girder]

we only have two ISP providers dominating the market. Telenet and Proximus.

[twin dew]

Because I have not seen single MB with IGP support that didn't have the option, even OEM boards.

[night girder]

It sucks.

That one works for me 😄

[pure karma]

gigabyte z790 UD AC

[visual tree]

*hides in the corner

[twin dew]

Settings, IO Ports, Internal Graphics: Disabled

Below "Initial Display Output" setting, that needs to be PCIe 1 Slot

[pure karma]

but thats not in the bios is it?

[twin dew]

Usually.

Yes?
Looking at the BIOS manual for the board.

Under that IO Ports

[pure karma]

il look again

[twin dew]

And the current Discord issues striking.

So enter the BIOS, then to Settings tab, then IO Ports should be second from top, between Platform Power and Miscellaneous.

And then that Internal Graphics should be second option after you open that menu.

[visual tree]

Only for businesses afaik

It is 😅

At least, most of the hard work is done and I am less stressed now lol

Private users can get up to 1 Gbit/s but I don't know about the business clients

Larger clients can get dedicated fiber but that's probably expensive

[pure karma]

found it guess i just missed it or probably dident check the setings section

[night girder]

maybe discord shouldn't have done that lay-off.

[visual tree]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's because of employees being fired

[dark stream]

it has been days for me since discord breaks

Like usual :(

before this issue occured nothing was wrong

everything would be smooth sailing

prob not? they store alot more than just 2trillions messages... in total (Dont take it seriously)

[night girder]

Imagine that 😂

[night girder]

issues should be solved.

Who?

I wonder if discord regrets declining Microsoft offer by now.

Microsoft would have just bought up discord and still add all the features we need to pay for.

Not because they need it (they should be financial healthy) but just because they can.

I don't want Discord to fail with this project. But I always get annoyed with tactics to open my wallet, feels "too agressive". This is highly subjective.

lol 😄

[crystal hound]

Saw you trying to post discordstatus.com, whitelisted it now. 😄

[night girder]

Thank you 😄

[crystal hound]

We'll need that more often in the future, right lol

[night girder]

You know it's funny, they said they implemented a fix and are monitoring the result.

Either the fix is still rolling out. Or something is still wonky. Since my latest image is still "loading".

Oh, if I click the image, it shows my screenshot. It just can't embed it in Discored. Let me restart client. Update: restarting client did the trick.

They should make a special channel for you Maxeek 😉

"Maxeek's deep thoughts channel"

Did you order a new GPU?

[night girder]

ah thanks for reminding me.

No no, I needed to look up if there is a place where I can give me old hardware and get money for it.

Recycle Parks = we need to pay to deliver our old hardware. Then they recycle the materials and sell those. So they are double dipping and I don't like that much.

[twin dew]

Any electronics store needs to take old electronics for free here, and deliver to right recycling.
Or all the larger waste yards have containers for that too.

[night girder]

That's better system imo.

[jagged snow]

I don't mind it, otherwise recycled materials would sell at a much higher price and then not be used(defeating the purpose of recycling)

[night girder]

There are small companies in Belgium, they come pick up old electronics and pay you for the value of the old electronics. So I know it's possible.

[jagged snow]

Then they are probably

• supported by public funds in some way
• upcycling instead of recycling
• reselling at a higher price or to different markets

For example, I pay to recycle my car tires
There are places that take them for free, but they're usually subsidized

[mental oriole]

Everything 2.0 wasnt possible 🤣

[night girder]

what's the difference between upcycling and recycling?

[twin dew]

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle.
Usually we jump straight to the last.

[jagged snow]

Upcycle is the second

[twin dew]

In here if you see something you would like in the wastepile, you cannot take it and try if it still works...

[jagged snow]

Find a second use for the hardware without stripping it down to raw materials

[jagged snow]

We technically cannot either, although I have done it in the past and ended up with functional stuff

[night girder]

How is reusing -> not the same as recycling? 😒

[twin dew]

Did it in past.
Now the employees at the various places have been taught to prevent that.

Actively.

[night girder]

I always thought recycling was: reusing materials. For example, a plastic bottle. Make it back into basic plastic and make something else. Like plastic fork or someething.

[twin dew]

Reusing the item as is.

[night girder]

The same what I though urban mining was doing with hardwre. Get the metals out of it. Smelt them. Sell them. To me this is still recycling. But I might be wrong here.

[twin dew]

Reduce: make is so that the item never needs to be manufactured.
Reuse: after the first owner discards the item, find another user for it.
Recycle: Break down the item and reuse the materials if possible.

[night girder]

Ok, I understand.

It just feels weird, that I have to pay to give away something that still has value.

And, wouldn't it motivate more humans to recycle if they get money for it? Money is a powerfull motivator sometimes.

[twin dew]

The Finnish system actively reduces/prevents the second step happening.

And jumps direct to third.

[night girder]

To be precise, I am talking mostly big hardware here. Monitors, old PC's, projectors, speakers, ...

[night girder]

We are very big on reusing. Every village has at least one "kringloop" in it's vicinity. That's where you give away stuff that's being sold again.

Inside it looks like this:

a big flea market 😄

[stray badger]

Like goodwill in the US

[night girder]

Yes, exactly

[jagged snow]

Yes, that is very common here

Clothes especially can be found in good condition

[charred pewter]

its actually a great way to find work clothes (stuff you would otherwise kind of mess up with paint/dirt/grease)

no point paying $40 for a long sleeve shirt you are going to work on the car with ... just grab something from goodwill/flea for $2

[opaque snow]

i hate a frend who swappend my m and n key

[languid gulch]

what's really fun is setting someone's keyboard to dvorak

[gilded helm]

What might be more sinister is something close to QWERTY like AZERTY. Something that's just slightly off

[jagged snow]

That wouldn't matter if you touch-typed

[languid gulch]

i'm just glad my mom made me attend typewriting classes when i was in middle school. thought it was too girly of a class to take at the time, but good god it's paid for itself so many times over

[charred pewter]

naw, switch "C" and "V" on a programmers keyboard, and watch the flames ensue

[languid gulch]

i did hear about one that's just satan, & it's that apparently there's some kind of (maybe?) cyrillic punctuation that's very similar to ; but different enough that it has its own dedicated code

[jagged snow]

Oh no
I would cry

[night girder]

I think you might mean Greek Question Mark? U+003B ; SEMICOLON – inherited from ASCII
U+037E ; GREEK QUESTION MARK

[narrow folio]

woah! reminds me about a story a friend told me many years ago:
a colleague of him made a small USB gadget that did nothing other than every now and then replaced some characters with either the very opposite or similar things
< instead of >
, ;
" '
or switched z with y for a few keystrokes
drove another coding colleague a bit crazy and on a swearing crusade
after a few wasted hours of buy fixing he was told what was going on...
short period of furious anger, but nothing a few beers couldn't fix.
since then it's kinda a running gad if someone made a few typos to 'look at your keyboard cable' or 'your keyboard needs some fixing' and stuff like that

[night girder]

Last week I learned about the alt shortcuts.

For example: press alt -> type in 0220 -> release alt = Ü

press alt -> type in 0196 -> release alt = Ä

A bit of an outdated system (who is going to remember all these codes?), but can be handy for niche symbols.

[languid gulch]

yea that's it 🤣 couldn't remember which language it applied to

& i've been tempted more than once to get a ridiculous keyboard or one of those programmable keypads just so i could macro special letters

[night girder]

I have an azerty keyboard. But I put it on qwerty.

So, I can type in most of the symbols. But the weird ones like that "Ü" ... no clue where it is on the keyboard.

I did this because I switched 5 years ago to qwerty suddenly (easier programming). But I didn't want to buy a new keyboard.

You know what I am really looking for? My ideal keyboard. I struggle to find keyboards that are maintenance friendly. All these keybaords have so many places where dirt can really get stuck to making it harder to clean.

[languid gulch]

i definitely miss having just screws holding things together instead of those stupid easily breakable plastic tab clip things

[night girder]

What do you think of this one?

should be easier to clean they say 😛

[languid gulch]

idk if i could get used to the feel of round keycaps

[night girder]

typewriter style, interesting

[languid gulch]

i still have my great-grandma's woodstock typewriter. she could do 100wpm on it

[night girder]

Have you ever heard of washable keyboards?

They have drainage holes on the bottom.

Thats logitech K310

[twin dew]

Usually those are just for spills.
So most with such holes aren't suitable for immersion cleaning without disassembly.

[night girder]

Look at cleaning instructions... they are literally called washable keyboards.

[twin dew]

That one is.

But meant the "They have drainage holes on the bottom." part.
That most with the holes aren't washable.

[night girder]

I want one. But afaik, it's discontinued.

[night girder]

Haha, you clever. You making sure nobody who reads this is putting their keyboard in a bathtub because it has "holes" 😂

but in the end, I want a keyboard with as less crevices as possible. Should make it easier to maintain. Maybe I also will try out a 60% for gaming.

[twin dew]

For the rubber dome type I just disassembled the things and washed the case parts and keycaps.
Cannot do with current mechanical without desoldering, as the PCB is under the top case, and the switches are above, with the case sandwitched in between.,

So can just wash the keycaps, and try to clean the case around the switches.

[edgy hazel]

my new keyboard has hot swappable switches finally

I got my keyboard to work today by smashing it on my desk a few times

I really need a new one

It should arrive in like a week

[night girder]

same here.

[edgy hazel]

[night girder]

That's the reason I was looking into ducky DIY keyboards.

You can deconstruct it fully.

[edgy hazel]

same 😄

[twin dew]

Switches are still mounted onto the front plate.
So would need to remove the switches from the plate, and their mounting isn't made to take multiple cycles of that.

[night girder]

Which keyboard you talking about Baldur?

I think the switches are swapable.

[twin dew]

The mounting clips on the switch bodies are pretty standard, and they are flimsy, meant for single install, not removal intact.
They can be removed intact, but not really intended for it.

So when you unmount them, you might not get all back intact each time.

[night girder]

You mean these two iron clips?

[twin dew]

Those are contact pins, not mounting.

[night girder]

the switches themself are made for it.

and you can just buy new switches anyway 🤷‍♂️

[twin dew]

Part of the white plastic.

IIRC.

[night girder]

would be weird since it's Keychron "selling" point is to have hot swapable switches. Would be surprised if the switches weren't tested on that.

[twin dew]

Center pin, two contact pins, and some small clips on the side.

[night girder]

and like I said, if one breaks, you can replace it. Better than to have to buy a whole new keyboard.

[twin dew]

But seems to be cleaner in the pic than I had pictured.

[night girder]

personal preference.

[edgy hazel]

I'll get gateron browns with it tho 🤮

so I'll need to get some cherry blues seperately

[twin dew]

If there was 100% size hotswap base with separate multimedia keys (back, forward, play/pause, mute, volume + and -), top-side leds and 1.25/6.25 lower row...

[night girder]

[twin dew]

Haven't been able to find, Keychron has south/near-side leds...

And most don't have multimedia keys except via FN-type comboes.

[night girder]

maybe ducky

[twin dew]

Only the three volume keys there separately in their full-size models.

[night girder]

Maybe look for keyboards without media keys but programmable keys.

example:

[twin dew]

Like I said, Keychron has the leds on wrong side of the switches.

Not suitable for keyboard marking lighting, just for key surrounding lighting.

For glow between the keys, not through they key markings.

[night girder]

think on my corsair K70 the leds are at the bottom.

Have 0 issues with it. I can see my keys. Some leds are broken (faulty colors).

[twin dew]

Corsair has that type of keycaps, but on most the markings are on top side.
And Corsair uses different bottom row layout.

[night girder]

yeah, transparant.

I never, ever use my media keys. Never. So I will not buy a full keyboard again. No use.

[twin dew]

At least on the K70 the markings are on the top edge, ans so are the leds.

[night girder]

that doesn't look like a K70

[twin dew]

That was some Corsair model, and checked the K70 pics otherwise, that was just first one which I could find with some keys removed.

K70 MK2 SE for the pic one.

[night girder]

those media keys are totally different than mine. I probably have MK1

[twin dew]

Different model, just reused the K70 name.

[night girder]

uhu

[twin dew]

But all the Corsair keyboards I quickly looked through had north-side leds and markings.

[night girder]

the leds on this corsair died way too quick

will not buy corsair again. Too pricy for the quality I got.

well, the frame is solid. And that's the only thing positive I can say about it.

[languid gulch]

your resistance to not making your pfp a gate is amazing

[night girder]

my guild is pretty fun now. Every new member is a reference to BG3. "Gale", "Lolth", ... they all joined recently. All BG3 references.

I am surprised Baldur isn't playing BG3 24/7

or maybe they are. Who knows haha 😄

[languid gulch]

yea, been seeing a spike in BG3 names in my mmo

[twin dew]

Would need to start with BG1 at some point.
Never finished it as I always went to wrong directions and "broke" the plot.

[languid gulch]

i mean, it's at least mildly appropriate considering it's D&D

[twin dew]

Was made to allow for that, but if you hadn't played it once the right way it started to get weird fast.

[night girder]

still applies for the 3rd game 😄

[languid gulch]

but i've also never understood the need to make character names that have NOTHING to do with what your build is 🤣

[night girder]

I just picked up a cool name. My fighter in BG3 is called Fenix.

[languid gulch]

in DDO you can reincarnate which gives that character a Past Life of that class or race, which lets you start over at level 1, just more powerful each time, so you'll see people who clearly started off as a barbarian named something like "Hacknslash" who are now cleric healbots

& the storage/inventory situation there is awful, so you'll see characters named "leveltwostorage" running around

[night girder]

ah the classic character bank

[serene charm]

My keychrons lights are fine

[edgy hazel]

which one do you have?

[serene charm]

k2 v2

or might be k2 pro

i dont remember

K2 C1 on the back

[twin dew]

Because the low-profile series seems to have north side leds.

Q-series has south side.

[edgy hazel]

k is also north

[twin dew]

Which makes it even weirder that the Q-series ones have south side leds.
When K-series (both low-profile and normal profile) have north side leds.

Part of K-series seems to also have south side, at least K10 Pro has.

K10 non-Pro has north side.

And the ones available in ISO, at 100% size are Q6, V6, K5 Pro and K10 Pro

Only K5 Pro of those has north side leds, and is for slim switches and keycaps.

[edgy hazel]

normal k10 can also be iso

[night girder]

I never noticed the leds being north/south or whatever. Does it bother you?

[twin dew]

Want keymarking illumination without excessive between keys illumination.

[edgy hazel]

I didn't like the look of the k10 pro

[twin dew]

Which needs north side leds if the keycaps have north side markings.

Like most have.

[twin dew]

Ok, they didn't list it on their site when selecting only ISO keyboards.

[edgy hazel]

depends on what iso

[night girder]

k70 is ISO north leds. Media keys.

but wouldn't recommend it.

[twin dew]

Talk was about hotswap switch ones.

[night girder]

Corsair K70 Pro Mini Wireless is hot swapable.

[twin dew]

Lot different keyboards available that fill all the other ticks but that.
And none of the hotswap ones seem to fill the requirements.

[twin dew]

And isn't 100%, doesn't have separate media buttons.
Seems to have the standard bottom row and not the Corsair one...

[night girder]

uhu, mini

[twin dew]

.

[night girder]

just saying there is a K70 model that supports it 😛

just not waht you are looking for.

And it's the first corsair, released last year I believe. So who knows for the future.

digiva.net/best-full-size-100-hot-swappable-keyboards/

1. Keychron Q6: program your own media buttons.

[edgy hazel]

I'm kind of done with popular tech brand-peripherals tbh. I mayhaps get another logitech mouse if my current one dies but the keychron will definitely be my entry point for custom keyboards

[twin dew]

South side leds.
So doesn't work with see through markings.

[night girder]

that Q6 would even interest me.

but already got a keychron

I want a ducky.

[twin dew]

So the AK35 would fit, if it was available in ISO.
Would need to check.

No

And has south side leds too...

For the current V2.

Original model seems to have had north side.

[night girder]

just turn keyboard 180 degrees and you got north side 😉

[twin dew]

Or just use the current non-hotswap keyboards I have that hit everything but that.
Which just makes cleaning harder.

[night girder]

I mean, I want to clean my keyboard monthly.

So the easier it is to clean, the better for me.

[edgy hazel]

I want to do it monthly too

I don't tho

[languid gulch]

one of those battery-powered canned air things is a great way to keep on top of it

takes care of like 90% of the garbage that accumulates in it

[stuck nebula]

https://www.reddit.com/r/SatisfactoryGame/comments/196dswu/does_satisfactory_take_advantage_of_amd_5800x3ds/ OMFG this topic is giving me a headache, especially the answers

how can some people be totally clueless and yet still offer an advice on something is beyond my imagination

https://tenor.com/view/frustrated-pulling-hair-no-frustrating-gif-3532627

[languid gulch]

"i'm not a doctor, but i play one on tv"

[stuck nebula]

XD

[languid gulch]

the only game i play that actually uses more than one core that i've noticed is KSP, & that's because vessels within physics distance get their own thread

[night girder]

"unless Satisfactory is in some way special (it isn't to my knowledge) it should behave like any other CPU-bound game."

[night girder]

This answer though. Makes no sense to me. It's not satisfactory being special. It's the CPU.

[languid gulch]

can each core grab ahold of the full L3 cache?

[night girder]

Because the CPU is different, some type of games (mostly the ones that benefit from cache) have better performance.

[stuck nebula]

exactly, they are totalyl clueless

[stuck nebula]

L3 cache is like a shared storage between CCX

in Ryzen cpus, if there is 1 ccx, there is 1 l3 cache

[languid gulch]

i can never remember the specific architecture like that

[night girder]

Essentially giving you another L3 cache, 3D V-Cache allows your processor to distribute and store more instructions, meaning that it doesn’t have to take them from RAM as often.

[twin dew]

Zen 3 and Zen 4 have 8 core CCX:s, so single CCX per CCD.
And the L3 is shared inside the CCX/CCD.

[night girder]

X3D, afaik, has additional layers of cache stacked on top of CPU.

[languid gulch]

but also, 5800X3D is still what, top 5 for gaming?

at that level it basically doesn't matter

[twin dew]

In theory with the dual-CCD 7900X3D and 7950X3D can have the non-Vcache accessing the V-cache CCDs L3, but in practice that is so slow it isn't done.

[edgy hazel]

let's gooo my cpu is still good

[languid gulch]

my 5600X still feels completely fine for about 95% of gaming

[stuck nebula]

technicalyl speaking, if they went with intel approach and had a hardware for core assignment it would work

[twin dew]

Problem is the latency over the IF

[stuck nebula]

yeah, Infinity Fabric is the current limitation for now

[twin dew]

It can be accessed, but the access has so much latency that it isn't useful

[night girder]

Baldur, correct me if I am wrong, but according to that picture.

L3 is accessible by every core.

[twin dew]

That isn't for any late AMD CPU.

[stuck nebula]

that's 1 ccd that has all CCX inside

[night girder]

Trying to find a good architecture picture mhh.

[twin dew]

How the L2 and L3 are split or shared between cores depends on the architecture.

[stuck nebula]

this is a dual ccd setup

seperate l3 per ccx/ccd

[twin dew]

Almost all current Intel and AMD CPUs have per core private L1 and L2 caches, and shared L3.

Intel Atoms have shared L2 per X cores (4 at last I checked IIRC).

[languid gulch]

are all 5800X3D CPUs single CCD?

[twin dew]

Yes.

[night girder]

Ah, interesting. 7800X3D.

[stuck nebula]

all xx800x3d cpus are single ccd up to now

[languid gulch]

i know there was a big agesa brain fart with 7000 series & whether or not they were 1 or 2 CCD

[stuck nebula]

that's not 7800x3d

it's dual ccds here

so either 7900x or 7950x or 7900/7950x3d with 1 ccd being v-cache stacked

[twin dew]

8 core and down only has single CCD.
Then the 12 and 16 core ones have two.

In some cases there is second inactive die in the CPU when delidded, sometimes not.

[stuck nebula]

was that due faulty 7950x dies being used in r7 series?

[languid gulch]

iirc the agesa issue was because they were using dual CCDs with models like 7600X with single deactivated cores on each CCD, so it was a 2x3 setup, & the agesa would just shut off a CCD & people were suddenly having 3-core systems

[night girder]

fucking AMD with shit documentation.

[stuck nebula]

their documentation is ok though

it takes some time to understand, it's a complex thing

[twin dew]

I do remember something to that, but if that is true, the dual-CCD 7600X would have significantly worse performance than single-CCD 7600X in some things that need cross-core communication...

So I really cannot believe AMD would do that type of thing.
And AFAIK they cannot disable cores in that amount anyways, only in steps of 2.

So 8 core CCD cannot be cut down to 3 cores.

[languid gulch]

i wonder if it was a 3x2 setup then

3 CCDs dual core each

[twin dew]

2+4 would be in theory possible.
But if you have only 2 cores functional from 8...

[stuck nebula]

is that even possible?

[twin dew]

No, two CCDs max.

[stuck nebula]

yeah

[twin dew]

For the IO-die used and the substrate used.

[languid gulch]

i'll have to hunt it down. the bug was definitely shutting off an entire CCD

[night girder]

Is this one correct?

[stuck nebula]

what i remmeber is what i wrote above, AMD repurposes faulty dual ccd cpus, for example when a 7950x dosn't pass a QC check in certain cores, they can use the good ones in 7600x etc

i read that many months ago so i don't fully remember the exact details

[twin dew]

Yes, but one of the CCDs is completely disabled.

[twin dew]

Yes.
If you skip the right side that is MB specific at least partly.

[stuck nebula]

aah i found it

https://www.techpowerup.com/300517/some-amd-ryzen-5-7600x-processors-made-with-dual-ccd-packages

this was what i read

[sharp oasis]

Aren't the X3D chips or at least ryzen 5000 X3D chips like the highest bin possible other then server grade.

[stuck nebula]

not necessarily

[sharp oasis]

Iirc the 5800X3ds were failed Milan-x ccds?

[twin dew]

Well, at first the 5800X3Ds were server line reject CCDs.

[sharp oasis]

7800x3d is I assume not the same case

[languid gulch]

wccftech.com/amd-issues-smu-fix-for-core-disabling-agesa-1-0-0-4-firmware-new-bios-available-by-msi/

"MSI, ASRock & ASUS rolled back the BIOS due to a major flaw that disabled a CCD on a few Ryzen 5 7600(X) CPUs that feature dual CCD layouts."

so 7600X definitely has dual CCD variants

[stuck nebula]

as far as i know, the highest bin possible is on 7950x3d ones

[twin dew]

Question is if that explanation is right or not?

[stuck nebula]

those are the top QC pass ones

[sharp oasis]

Highest bin is server grade. Iirc

[twin dew]

What is the source for it?
Because might be just speculation originally without official AMD or MB maker word.

So no, no official word, just the word of chi11eddog.

[stuck nebula]

https://www.techpowerup.com/277053/dual-ccd-ryzen-5-5600x-and-ryzen-7-5800x-in-the-wild it even goes back to 2021 5600x dual ccd

[sharp oasis]

For consumers yeah that's probably the highest binnec chip. But for servers iirc the 5800X3d had some of the best vf curves and still didn't pass for server bin.

[twin dew]

Which is a thing:

There are, apparently, some 5600X and 5800X built from dual-CCD MCMs, in which an entire CCD, although physically present on the package, is disabled. A 5600X based on a dual-CCD design is essentially a 5900X from which one of the CCDs didn't fully qualify;

But having two CCDs with small parts of each enabled isn't AFAIK.

[stuck nebula]

that i never heard of tbh

[languid gulch]

that kind of screwup sounds like AMD completely forgot that it was a thing 🤣

[stuck nebula]

if you see their arc. it makes sense, repurposed 7900x > 7600x

repurposed 7950x > 7700x etc

but idk how they manged to do that if it's real

some parts of each ccd being active on 7600x is wild

[twin dew]

Which has been the point of the talk, if there have been 7600X:s with two active CCDs with just 3 cores each.
Which isn't possible.
More probably 7900X that had faulty CCD0.

And the 1.0.0.4 AGESA tripped with that config, when the CCD1 was supposed to be the active one.

[languid gulch]

might just be the cores that aren't up to spec, with the rest of the CCD being fine

[stuck nebula]

aah now it makes more sense , i see.

[twin dew]

And worked when CCD1 was disabled and CCD0 was one working.

[stuck nebula]

my current amd setup has a 7600x in it, i was supposed to get a 7950x3d but couldn't find a one in stock back then, i'm quite happy with it

gonna get a 8800x3d when it gets released

i'm not even sure if it's even neccesary for satisfactory only usage though

7600x handles it quite nicely

[languid gulch]

yea, basically any cpu that's not in a laptop made in the last 3-4 years should really handle SF just fine

unless you're trying to do something insane with the map

you can melt just about any cpu's capabilities with just about any map building game if you try hard enough

[twin dew]

Like I have said several times here, my 7800X3D could do 90-100FPS in Taros 29MB save if I had good enough GPU.

[stuck nebula]

eh, i've seen some usage of x3d cpus in satisfactory and i gotta say, the difference between a 7600x/7700x to 7800x3d is not that big compared to my expectations

it's probably has to do how a game data is optimized to be calculated

people with superior game dev knowledge know something about it

my knowledge is none in that part

[twin dew]

Send your save in PM and we can do comparison of Game time while at HUB?

[languid gulch]

meanwhile, my 18 year old MMO has an area that's absolutely murder everyone's fps no matter what because of all the assets because of how badly optimized it is

[stuck nebula]

sadly, atm im on my old ass laptop. My pc is in my main city

we can arrange that once i go back

but my save is not that big, maybe we can use a really big one

to see the difference

[languid gulch]

5600X/6800XT system, this ancient game will drop down to 30fps in that area because of how awful they coded it

[night girder]

I am less happy with my 7600X 😂

[stuck nebula]

your pc would love a 5800x3d

[languid gulch]

yea but my VRMs wouldnt

[stuck nebula]

x3d really just works wonders with mmorpgs

[twin dew]

Well, your system has some really weird issues...

[stuck nebula]

care to elaborate?

[night girder]

Blame AMD.

[twin dew]

88W max?

[languid gulch]

basically. B450 gigabyte

[twin dew]

As in the 5800X3D is very low power.

[night girder]

I had to downclock FLCK to get it stable. Auto FLCK is 2000MHz. I have to run it at 1733MHz.

Else I get hard crashed, black screen, no BSOD, no logs.

[languid gulch]

if it drops to $250, maybe

[night girder]

Still not 100% sure that this is the real issue. But something funky is going on with my CPU.

[twin dew]

Unstable in some exact things.
And might have VSOC damage for running with old BIOS when new, because ASRock seems to have very stupid defaults.

On their AM5 boards.

[languid gulch]

but i'm betting something in 14th gen intel or ryzen 8000 series will beat it before it gets cheap enough, & i'd probably go for that upgrade

[twin dew]

Reboots without warning, which points to either uncorrectable ECC fault, or in theory MB VRM protections kicking in.

[stuck nebula]

aah.. if you've seen my auto gigabyte pbo settings you would cry

[twin dew]

And only ECC protected thing that doesn't send warnings is FCLK/IF.

[twin dew]

Point was the MB was setting 6000MT/s RAM settings on voltages and FCLK by default, always.

[night girder]

Can G-Sync cause crashes like this?

[twin dew]

Not just when the RAM was set to specific speed.

[stuck nebula]

the first thing i did was manual pbo settings and curve optimizer negative on all cores

[twin dew]

No, shouldn't.

[stuck nebula]

so in theory this already limits the voltage

[night girder]

That's not what I asked 😄 Can it. In theory.

[stuck nebula]

my pc still runs perfectly with very old bios

[twin dew]

Unless the GPU is doing something very weird, and in that case it should be the GPU crashing.

[stuck nebula]

and it never goes higher than 1.2V if i rememebr correct

[night girder]

I ran prime95 yesterday for 15 minuts. All stable.

[twin dew]

Which shouldn't autoreboot the computer.

[twin dew]

ASRock in latest BIOS was setting VSOC to 1.25V with RAM on auto.
So the original BIOS might have set it to 1.35V on first boot, before BIOS update to the VSOC limited ones.

As in when CMOS was cleared or "Set defaults" used inside BIOS.

[night girder]

since I tuned it back to 1733MHz it ran stable for a day. But way too soon to tell if it's "solved" or not.

It did crash when I switched from that weird 1750MHz setting to 1733MHz. But only once. Since then it didn't happen again.

and the prime95 readme file says 10-15 minuts should crash flacky system.

[twin dew]

Not really, depends how flaky.
Can take days in cases.

For the IF crashes I had, took few hours each.

[night girder]

Yeah I've read that, but since it happens sometimes frequently I though to gave it a shot. 🤷‍♂️

[stuck nebula]

i'm not even sure if i changed anything in fclk manually

[night girder]

really freaking weird.

[stuck nebula]

i only changed pbo settings, curve optimized and since i have expo kit, i just enabled it

[night girder]

My current plan is this: keep everything as is for a month. If stable after a month. Re-enable G-sync on my monitor. If it's still stable. Never touch bios again.

[stuck nebula]

everything works wonders

[twin dew]

1733MHz is the AMD default.
Most MBs raise it up to 2000MHz as you raise memory clock, hitting that 2000MHz with 6000MT/s RAM.

ASRock is setting it to 2000MHz by default, always.

[night girder]

If my CPU is dying: hopefully by then I can buy X3D CPU.

If it wasn't the CPU, I will replace my motherboard. But that's for when it really starts to die on me.

[stuck nebula]

i will remmeber it to check what is my fclk ocne i go back, but my kit also is 60000MT/s one

[night girder]

In the meantime I make sure to offload screenshots to my NAS so my data is safe.

[stuck nebula]

but probably it's what you said, since it's an expo profile, it should also automaticall change that value

[twin dew]

2000MHz FCLK is the number AMD says that (almost) all AM5 CPUs should be able to do.

[night girder]

speaking of which, going to do meta-event in GW2 that made the setup crash a lot. 🤞

[twin dew]

But the VSOC damage causes it to start dropping with time.

At least based on my own personal experience.

[stuck nebula]

in theory, if you have high negative curve optimizer, dosn't this also limit the voltage upper limit?

[night girder]

dumb question: but VSOC is ... CPU or Mobo based?

or can it be both? 😒

[twin dew]

That is for the CCDs, VSOC is for the IOD.

[stuck nebula]

afaik, vsoc is core voltage

[twin dew]

Got my first 7800X3D replaced by AMD, it couldn't do 1933MHz FCLK stable anymore.

[stuck nebula]

but baldur should know better

[twin dew]

V, SOC (System-on-Chip), meaning IO-die in this case.

VCore is for the CCDs.

[stuck nebula]

that's weird, then i guess i were lucky that my Voltage never exceed 1.2V?

i'm not even sure, it also has to do with me limiting the pbo settings to eco?

[twin dew]

One mistake on that one, the VDDCR_GFX is from VDDCR, not from VDDCR_SOC:

[night girder]

So, if it's VSOC damage, then it's CPU damage. Just want to know what to replace first 😄

And I mean, at this point I have no case to make to AMD. Since it's so hard to reproduce. I cannot go for a replacement on a hunch can I? 😒

[twin dew]

The VSOC debacle was that AMD originally said that VSOC can be 1.4V max.
But in reality that killed CPUs.
And was limited to 1.3V in later AGESA versions.

And all MB makers were using 1.35V SOC when the memory was set to 6000MT/s.

[charred pewter]

not an issue with Intels 😄

[stuck nebula]

Intel

[night girder]

Well, it seems in the end I will paying the same price as a Intel CPU tbh. Since I might have to buy two now 😂

[stuck nebula]

https://tenor.com/view/hysterical-laughter-laughing-gif-25735842

[night girder]

fuck it, when I think like that, I might regret the switch. But honestly. I might gotten really unlucky.

[stuck nebula]

you probably got really unlucky

[night girder]

Yeah, I think so too.

[stuck nebula]

just to make sure i will update my bios once i go back

[charred pewter]

i think you just got unlucky if its hardware failure

[twin dew]

Part of the problem was/is that the VDDCR_GFX (IGP voltage) and the VDDCR_SOC (VSOC/IOD main voltage) got too large difference when the CPU cores & IGP were idle, and that causes/caused damage inside the IGP, that killed/kills CPUs.

[stuck nebula]

i remember those craters on x3d cpus

was it on a x3d?

XD

[twin dew]

On all Raphael CPUs, just killed the X3Ds quicker.

Asus had another bug and continued to feed 300+A into CPU that had shorted IOD, melting the thing.

[stuck nebula]

OOF 300A?

https://tenor.com/view/god-damn-gif-10267541

[twin dew]

But all MB manufacturers killed CPUs, and first ones were from over 2 months before X3Ds were released, when people went back.

[twin dew]

No over current protection on VRM when CPU wasn't booted up yet, except what the VRM could feed.

So the computer shut down when the IOD died, then if you tried to reboot with Asus board, you got melted IOD, CPU substrate and socket.

Other manufacturers just didn't boot anymore.

[night girder]

Who is liable then?

AMD for giving out wrong specs? Mobo manufacturers?

[twin dew]

AMD replaced the CPUs, Asus replaced the MBs (after some fighting for North American market).

[stuck nebula]

If in reality AMD really fucked up with their max Voltage values then it's on them

[night girder]

even then, I don't have a spare CPU. So sending my CPU to AMD isn't really an option.

[stuck nebula]

but if the manfuactures did "next, next,agree" on details

then idk

[twin dew]

I did suggest trying to ask the CPU seller, which should be couple of days turnover.

[twin dew]

It was AMD giving out bad specs, and then all MB makers using the max "allowed" for "reasons".

[night girder]

I know, and I said: I have no case. "PC crashes. Mostly (99%) with GW2. I lowered my FLCK and that seemed to make it stable. Can I have new CPU?" 😄

How to reproduce it? "I don't know, play GW2 for hours and hours? Download something in the background"

[twin dew]

Try with the 1800MHz FCLK with TestMem5, Prime95 and Y-Cruncher for nights.

[charred pewter]

its strange what triggers something ... like it only seems to happen in GW2 for you

for my 980ti, the ONLY thing that triggered its failure point, was standing near shores in ESO

every other game was 'fine'

[night girder]

Only once did it crash on the desktop. And that when steam was downloading BG3. Also CPU related.

[charred pewter]

yuck 😦

🤨

[night girder]

but that was when FLCK was on 2000MHz

[stuck nebula]

the problem is you need multiple stuff avaialbe if you want to detect what is faulty

so what Baldur suggested is the easiest fix but requires time and patience

[twin dew]

When you are heading to bed next time, set the FCLK to 1800MHz, then boot into Windows and set Prime95 running for the night.

And see what is the status in the morning.

[stuck nebula]

send it back to seller so they test it

[charred pewter]

its been years now ?

[stuck nebula]

wasn't it last summer?

it wasnt even a year yet

[charred pewter]

feels like years 😆

[night girder]

mhm, can try.

Also it's weird, but alt + tabbing caused a lot of crashes. And now that I disabled G-sync on monitor. Alt+Tab feels so smooth, no black screens for 1ms or anything.

So I am still keeping that open as a possible culprit. With very low % that it's actually the issue.

[stuck nebula]

when you say crash, do you mean an application crash or a system crash?

[twin dew]

Non-warned HW level reset.

[stuck nebula]

oh..

i highly doubt a software can cause an HW crash

[twin dew]

Like you had pressed reset button.

[night girder]

g-sync isn't software only 😒 afaik.

read reports of hard crashes because of bad HDMI cables.

I mean, it has a hardware side to it. (monitor needs to support it correctly)

[twin dew]

So needs to be something that causes MB to trigger it.
VRM overload or resonance in them.
Or uncorrected ECC error somewhere, as AM5 AGESA doesn't report corrected errors for some types yet and hard-reboots on uncorrected ones, instead of reporting to OS for BSOD.

And IF (and possibly PCIe) is the only one I know of.
The CPU cache ECC errors do get reported.
And RAM ECC errors would need ECC RAM.

[stuck nebula]

i'm not sure how exactly gsync works in hardware level but if your issue is 100% related to that, i would look how it works on that part

but even then that's really complicated

[twin dew]

Should only at max crash the GPU, GPU driver, or OS.

None of which should cause HW reset.

[stuck nebula]

that's also what i thought

atm the easiest fix is to have 2nd pair of everything in hardware

a mobo, new memory kit, new cpu

heck, it could even be a psu problem

[night girder]

the whole point of this build was no to blow money. and don't have 2nd pairs since previous is Intel/Nvidia.

and that PC went to my niece.

[twin dew]

And IIRC there isn't the clicks that would be there for PSU protections kicking in.

Or for PSU off then back on power cycle by MB either.

[stuck nebula]

well tbh if he takes his pc to a good repair guy, he will 99% figure out the problem

i can't imagine my current desktop breaking though

it's heavy af, has tons of fans, a 420mm aio

[twin dew]

Yup, would need the system tested with known good CPU, and the CPU tested in otherwise known good system.

[stuck nebula]

i can barely lift it

[twin dew]

To be sure.

[night girder]

I don't know. That costs me also money.

[stuck nebula]

i mean sadly, that's the best way for you to find the culprit

[night girder]

But they might figure it out after weeks.

[twin dew]

Which is why we can try to pin down a specific case where it crashes near enough to AMD standard, that it should be able to be replaced with RMA.

[stuck nebula]

a similar topic to yours

[twin dew]

Like that 1800MHz FCLK with some test program, in realistic time frame.

[stuck nebula]

https://community.amd.com/t5/processors/ryzen-5-7600x-new-build-crashing-games-and-software-on-heavy/m-p/628221 look at this

1 important note: his were all software crashes

and guess what was the solution?

[twin dew]

Not sure if MB & CPU replacement, or just MB replacement.

[stuck nebula]

^ correct

mostly 1 of these 2 are the culprit

[twin dew]

But again ASRock board.

[stuck nebula]

or both, in a really unlucky day

[twin dew]

Originally, and the new one isn't.

But that doesn't really help, it is most likely the CPU, but need to prove it to suitable level to get quick RMA with the seller.
Because direct AMD one takes ages.

[stuck nebula]

sadly he didint test his old cpu with new mobo first

so we can't know what exactly was at fault

but mostly a faulty mobo is a higher risk than a faulty cpu if im right

can a faulty cpu fry a mobo?

[twin dew]

Usually not, in theory yes.

[night girder]

read that topic too.

"fixed by buying new PC"

[twin dew]

But the instability can be unstable VRM output, or just insanity by the MB otherwise.
But need to try to confirm one way or another.

[stuck nebula]

yeah, mostly it's the otherwise that stupidly high voltage/Ampere frying the cpu

so that's why mostly the first thing that is tested is the mobo

[stuck nebula]

sadly that's it

there is a high chance your pc randomly stop working totally too

if it's a vrm/cpu related thing

if you are lucky, you will only have to replace your mobo

i got quite lucky in that aprt, i chose gigabyte mobo for my am5 setup and it's working quite nice

afaik gigabyte ones are quite decent in am5 lineup

other than the really cheap ones

[night girder]

the crash from 1750MHz to 1733MHz. Could it been a fluke, Baldur?

[twin dew]

No idea.
And still no idea how ASRock managed that 1750MHz FCLK.

[night girder]

I set it to 1750MHz. It crashed. I set it back to 1733MHz. It crashed. (the last crash?)

Who was it that posted the same screenshot? 🤔 Of the weird bumps.

[twin dew]

ASRock doing something very weird.

[night girder]

fireworker or fight or flight

[twin dew]

In both the MBs, yours and his.

[night girder]

yeah, seems so.

[stuck nebula]

the craters of dead?

there are many topic

[twin dew]

ASRock MB FCLK settings going in weird steps.

[stuck nebula]

aah

[twin dew]

Should be in 33.3... MHz steps, (1/3 divider from 100MHz base clock).
Both ASRock boards (one AM5, one AM4) had them all over the place.

With some 1x40MHz and 1x50MHz settings for example.

[stuck nebula]

that's weird

[night girder]

#off-topic-tech message

[twin dew]

For Letterdief, it jumps from 1800MHz direct to 2000MHz, nothing in between.
And there are 1700, 1733, 1750, 1800 MHz settings, instead of 1700, 1733, 1767, 1800 etc.

[night girder]

#off-topic-tech message

[stuck nebula]

but can this cause a crash?

[twin dew]

If the settings work right, shouldn't.
But is weird and no idea what the ASRock BIOS team is doing...

The defaults were all over the place.

[night girder]

Well, I went from 1733MHz running stable for two weeks to 1750MHz. It crashed 3 times that day.

Switched back to 1733MHz. Played 10 hours of GW2 yesterday and no crash. Today I have been playing for about 4-5 hours without a crash,.

[stuck nebula]

then just stay there i guess?

[twin dew]

Which is why I expect this might be VSOC damage from the initial BIOS, without the VSOC limiter in place, running on 1.35V by default when the new ones run at 1.25V VSOC by default.
When the default should be 1.05V.

[night girder]

I am going to all the zones/events (in GW2) that made the PC crash before. The events with most people, mobs and spell efects.

[twin dew]

Now slowly progressing with the lower voltage too.

Like my CPU did.

Because the crash type fits uncorrected IF ECC errors.

But trying to get more data.

Other MB makers set the VSOC to 1.05V when the RAM is on auto.
That MB with the latest BIOS sets it to 1.25V fixed.

And so there is reasonable chance that the original BIOS the MB came with set it to 1.35V until the BIOS was updated with CPU installed.

[stuck nebula]

do you remmeber at what version this issue has fixed?

if i remember im on F6 bios in my b650 aorus elite and have this one

and mine never vent above 1.25

[twin dew]

1.0.0.7a IIRC came with the AGESA side fix.

MB makers limited it before.

[stuck nebula]

ah that sohuld be the case

[twin dew]

VCore or VSOC?

[stuck nebula]

im not realyl sure but it has to be vsoc

i havent touched my pc since 2 months

[night girder]

What is Vcore on Motherboard?

[twin dew]

Asus added the limit to first BIOS with AGESA 1.0.0.6 for example on the BIOS side.

[twin dew]

The voltage that feeds the CPU cores.

1.4V max is normal for non-X3D CPUs.

[night girder]

tying to find vsoc 😛

[stuck nebula]

aaah you are right

[twin dew]

with X3D:s having 1.2VCore max.

[stuck nebula]

i already have the updated version

this is gigabyte's

[twin dew]

In the CPU temperature & power section.

Between the temperatures and powers.

CPU VDDCR_VDD Voltage (SVI3 TFN) for VCore and same with _SOC for the VSOC.

Right below the CPU IOD hotspot temp.

[twin dew]

Which is what we manually forced it to.

[stuck nebula]

i love discord, i found an image i posted in another server

[twin dew]

When the default by ASRock was 1.25V.

[night girder]

I think I put it on auto. I cannot remember. Only value hardcoded I saw in Bios was the 1733MHz.

[twin dew]

With the 2.02 BIOS.

[stuck nebula]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/873057586801442827/1103409176333516820/image.png?ex=65b16adf&is=659ef5df&hm=47ae99d565a47bec03e1d519785e3dbf5d10019e2f4ce609397cede56ccccdd0&

[twin dew]

It was forced to 1.25V, and auto set it to same IIRC.

Same with the FCLK, was set to 2000MHz, and Auto set it to same, so had to be forced down.

[stuck nebula]

so yeah it runs at 1.025

[night girder]

Right. The FLCK cannot be put on auto.

[stuck nebula]

not even 1.25

[twin dew]

You probably have your RAM on Auto frequency, not XMP enabled.

[night girder]

The only thing I whished asrock provided is: set everything to default option. Because hunting in the BIOS for value set is annoying.

[stuck nebula]

auto expo

not touched anything

[twin dew]

EXPO isn't on by default.

Needs to be manually set, and usually at that point the MB cranks the VSOC up too.

ASRock was cranking it even without RAM frequency being set higher.

[stuck nebula]

what i mean is that i enabled it in bios

and havnet touched anything else regarding those values

[twin dew]

Ok.

[stuck nebula]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/873057586801442827/1085303648801800372/20230314_224809.jpg?ex=65b02649&is=659db149&hm=eb8bf9e18ab74acf1f190ebd774747e3db4e7818546c3c877f5a8c167ed37ca3& damn i found all my old photos in that server

a really tight fight 420mm aio

😂

i wonder why amd is sleeping on x3d cpus on laptop side

i need a new laptop and the only x3d laptop avaiable is with a 4090

[twin dew]

Because most of the laptop CPUs are with different die(s) that don't have the taps etc. for extra cache die to be added.

[stuck nebula]

imagine paying 4k euros for a 150w tdp 4090

[stuck nebula]

there is already one that asus released

but i dont understand the 4090 part

[twin dew]

AMD released that single desktop replacement laptop CPU with v-cache, almost no-one just uses it yet.

[stuck nebula]

that is also correct tbh, but they gotta start partnering with manufacturers if they want bigger market share

that was always the case with AMD, they don't really want to compete in consumer side with Intel nor with Nvidia

my current laptop is with Intel cpu, im not buying another intel laptop

[twin dew]

Want, don't have the resources to put into it yet.

[stuck nebula]

in terms of efficiency it's shit

[twin dew]

And are also limited on how many units they have die allocations for.

From TSMC:s limited capacity.

[stuck nebula]

yeah, now that i rethink that is correct

intel has the capacity to fabricate their own chips even if they are not top level

[stuck nebula]

I guess that problem will be semi fixed with new fabs comming online in the future

both in US, EU and Japan

they dont have to make the newest ones, as long as they can make the current ones that's quite the deal

[twin dew]

Yes.
And once they have enough wafers to fill their current demand on server space, they can use some of the money to form the design help department(s) needed.

For increased standing in laptop space.

When they can actually fill the laptop chip demand there already is.

[stuck nebula]

they still have quite the time

unless intel does a total 180 and fixed their issue with their new architecture

it seems they also are having problems with it

what was it, Arrow lake or something?

[twin dew]

The fact that Intel currenly fabs some of their chips on TSMC...
All the ARC GPUs, some of the chiplets for the new 14th gen laptop chips.

[stuck nebula]

yeah.. It's kind of inevitable to happen, TSMC is pouring shitton of money on R&D every year

it's kind of hard to catch up to them

not forgetting that 10+ years where Intel did nothing

[twin dew]

Intel exec team just failed, and intentionally let go the more experienced engineers 10 years or so ago...
As cost cutting measure...

And the CPU design team had too much power over the fab tech team.

[stuck nebula]

that's what happens when a tech company has a economics CEO

or whatever was that guys prof.

it never works it will never work

1 side always prioritizes short term profit

while engineers know that long term is always the best goal

[twin dew]

"Why do we pay these old engineers this much when the new people fill the same spot with half the pay?"

[stuck nebula]

exactly, i couldn't even name it better

same thing is happening with Amazon on Twitch right now

they literally fired most of the experienced stuff

in name of cost cutting

it baffles me how these big companies never learn

the only exception here is Nvidia for some reason

they are greedy but they are the leader in pushing new technologies

atleast in their department

they never stop

[twin dew]

So at same time the 10nm Intel fab tech was step too far at once, because the CPU design team didn't have realistic wishes and the fab team was pushed to try to fill them.
And at same time the experienced people were let go on both teams via big voluntary severance packages etc.

[night girder]

Twitch has been digging it's own grave for a while.

[stuck nebula]

Corporate life is a weird thing tbh

not even people in Corporate world understand it

[twin dew]

MBA was supposed to be just additional thing you went through after some real world experience.
Not be the only thing you had.

[night girder]

a lot of people switched to Youtube for streaming. The whole real life streaming is the nail in the coffin for twitch (for me).

[twin dew]

Now it teaches that the MBA people know best about everything and is taught as only thing for people and then they go to leadership positions.