💀┃acolyte

[thorn flower]

In the passives?

[sly forge]

yes

just do the math to put affix and passives so that your minion has 100% crit chance

[wintry flame]

Sounds about right but yeah not getting the infernal shade is rough.

[sly forge]

idk I have 5 maximal shades

[wintry flame]

Yeah the flask node is bad I take it out in all my new planners

[sly forge]

I would rather take the 40% more damage and 10% crit chance and 20% crit multi from the dread shade

[wintry flame]

Yeah I know, that version can’t do the infernal shade stuff

Cold crit can

But not as defensively good

[sly forge]

well they are better than flame wraith and does not need snapshotting and also character is tanky

[thorn flower]

You two have really been going back and forth for like 12hrs

xD

[sly forge]

well I love minion builds

[sly forge]

and I also feel that cold element does not match rogue.

[wintry flame]

How so?

[sly forge]

like in theme

they are physical and poison

just my feeling

[wintry flame]

Yeah you just get access to a lot of cold damage

And it can be applied generically to their throwing attack and melee attack

Which in turn benefits clear

[sly forge]

yeah maybe

[wintry flame]

I’m always in this channel lmao

[sly forge]

but going cold means that you will lose a lot of benefit from t rex

so not sure if cold is better without snapshot

or wait

you could still equip the cleaver

axe

[wintry flame]

Nah

You want pebbles

And it’s a 3 piece set

Which takes your mainhand slot

[sly forge]

oh damn so you really lose the benefit from t rex

so cannot really tell which is better

[wintry flame]

Yeah you can run the set ring

To complete pebbles and lich sets but that’s your primo

[sly forge]

set ring= lost 4% minion crit or lose 1 skeleton+35% minion multi crit

[wintry flame]

And then run apogee

[sly forge]

since I equip phantom grip and hollow

not worth trade off

[wintry flame]

You just take the skeleton in tree

[sly forge]

hmm let's see 9 skeletons

so still 5 rogues

but if I take the set I will lose 30% minion attack speed due to the gloves

is that negligible?

[wintry flame]

You don’t run gloves

You run the set ring to complete gloves with the catalyst

You only care about the set bonus not the set gloves

[sly forge]

oh yeah

the ring covers the gloves

but losing the shield is a huge penalty

like you are easy to die

[wintry flame]

I might see about making a regen version

Kinda feels bad not going regen and vit stacking on.l necro now since DoT is like free extra damage

Even with crit

AoD is free multi and damage in most of the damage types, vit scales DoT it’s easy to take the DoT multi in dread shade, and most minion mods are generic

[sly forge]

ah wait

if you use set ring

you again lose buff from t rex too

[wintry flame]

yeah

[sly forge]

the buff from t rex is insane

especially if you stack endurance

[wintry flame]

yeah

It is nice

wonder if there is any benefit to dex stacking too

but idk dodge is so meh

[sly forge]

no

no reason for necro to stack dodge

you are extremely tanky via all minion builds

[wintry flame]

it'd be like extra 15-20% attack speed, I don't think it's worth either, maybe for mages since they have multiplicative cast/atk speed scaling

[sly forge]

ah also

just tested harvest flay lich

damage is a lot worse than mana flay lich

even worse than flame wraith

[wintry flame]

I don't play lich much

[sly forge]

ah ok

[wintry flame]

only build I played was infernal shade pop

and it was poison

[sly forge]

that build is good

wait poison?

[wintry flame]

yeah

one sec I have a work meeting

[sly forge]

oh then see you

[thorn flower]

Hahaha I can tell

[thorn flower]

Same. That's why I don't like diablo 4 anymore.

[sly forge]

I have not played diablo 4 but I don't play median xl anymore

I still have hope for this game as long as they have good minion builds

[peak flare]

Does the "lowest health minion" consumed by Elixir of Hunger count as minion death for the purpose of generating Apogee stack?

[wintry flame]

I'm not sure, I don't think I've tested that

[wintry flame]

yes poison, with poison overload and the ability to build poison easily it was a good starter and did quite good damage. idk if it's a top contender or anything but it was a fun build.

the nodes in infernal shade are generic multipliers, so it works well with anything tbh

but pretty sure that build on Lich just lost like 66% more dmg because of the death seal changes

[obtuse quest]

Fire/ignite version is probably better just by virtue of having more generic support

[obtuse quest]

Yes, but that means juggling having a low health minion that wouldn't be eaten by abom who bum rushes to minions it can eat

[peak flare]

Can it eat crab from crab ring?

[obtuse quest]

If you summoned the crab and let it ate it while generating the abom, yes.
Otherwise no.

But that also means losing a ring slot

(And evade)

[peak flare]

You evade to summon crab, then drink potion to consume crab, then Harvest to trigger Apogee stack.

[obtuse quest]

Yeah there's no more 'evade', it just summons the crab

[peak flare]

I know.

[obtuse quest]

BUt other than walking up to hit the target, I see no issues

(And losing the ring slot)

[peak flare]

I mean, it's not like it's a bad ring, it gives you Swiftness and lots of attributes, but i get it, there's always something else better.

[obtuse quest]

You could have used the rings for minion crit so...

[peak flare]

But at least for DoT minions i think it might be the best option. It gives you +12 vitality on a max rolled ring, that is +12% more damage over time for minions.

[wintry flame]

I think bleed is probs the best now

I mean the best use case is just unspecced zombie on bar and use chaos bolts in most cases

you usually have enough dex to proc harvest, you can usually swap dread shade on bar for some skill, so zombies would be good. then just cast it every 8 secs and use chaos bolts til harvest proc

[thorn flower]

I'm assuming the Pebbles set also does not apply to skeletal mages

And is flame wraith the best wraith? Wouldn't melee be better due to Pebbles?

[wintry flame]

correct

[wintry flame]

pebble's doesn't apply to wraiths

[thorn flower]

Ok.

[wintry flame]

melee wraiths are stronger on paper, tbh

[thorn flower]

So, the best horde setup would be skeletons and wraiths with dread and infernal shades and aura of decay?

[wintry flame]

but flame wraiths is the only one ever build because range is kind of better in a sense ya know

[thorn flower]

With rogue skeletons

[wintry flame]

yeah

[thorn flower]

And cold damage for dread and decay?

And there is absolutely no way to make skeleton mages anything other than a profound disappointment?

[wintry flame]

uh no I'd just go phys and T-rex with army tbh

[thorn flower]

T-rex?

Also, no Aberrant Call, right? That'd kill off the skellies

[wintry flame]

Tyrant's

[thorn flower]

How else can I boost max wraiths?

[thorn flower]

?

[wintry flame]

the primordial relic

[thorn flower]

Ok. Will check it out.

Yep, that thing looks broken as heck

What about legends entwined? I feel like I could to partial pebbles, leave out the collar, and use legends entwined

I got Tyrant's, though

[wintry flame]

hmmm, I forget the exact setup I did, but you need go low life somehow, disable leech. and build endurance/str, probs run face of the mountain with Cleaver and you either run mantle w/ last steps and T7 melee atk speed & missing hp as ward on julra's or do exsang, last steps, and T7 melee atk speed on julra's.

[wintry flame]

you can't go legends entwined with Tyrants

[thorn flower]

The alternative I was thinking of is legends entwined with pebbles and lich's

Also, how do I get turqoise hearts?

[thorn flower]

There's a primordial unique that drains hp

[wintry flame]

turqoise hearts?

[wintry flame]

yeah but can't use it with other primordials

[thorn flower]

The heart currency for primordial uniques

[thorn flower]

Oh, can you only use 1 primordial per build?

[wintry flame]

ye

[wintry flame]

oh crystalized hearts, trade at vendor, drop from rift beast or the woven echoes. think there is a node for it on the tree too

[thorn flower]

Oh. Interesting

I haven't gotten any to drop from rift beasts yet

Is there any way to increase Dread Shade's bonuses?

Also, can overlapping Infernal Shades stack their damage vs a single target, or no?

[wintry flame]

yes

[thorn flower]

Is that a yes to both?

If it's a yes to the question about Dread Shade, how do I increase its bonuses via stats on gear?

[wintry flame]

with increased effect, but it's only on one node based of missing hp or scales of luminscate axe or whatever

[thorn flower]

Ok, so effectively no meaningful and realistic way to boost i

*it

Also, how do I get the lich set? Is it a random drop like the rest? I've never seen it before, so it must be newer than when I was last serious about playing (a couple years back)

[wintry flame]

it's the soulfire dungeon drop

[thorn flower]

Ohhhh
I haven't run that much. Will have to do it on my main

[wintry flame]

if you have CoF you can get it from the drops complete set rank and the weaver tree nodes that enable dungeon drops in echoes

[thorn flower]

Sorry, but Idk the that shorthand. What's CoF?

Circle of Fortune?

[wintry flame]

circle of fortune

[thorn flower]

Yeah, I have CoF

[wintry flame]

yes

[thorn flower]

My brain is lagging from not having played much in ages. xD

Thanks for all the tips, btw.

[wintry flame]

of course!

[thorn flower]

Ok, so back on the legends entwined shenanigans, because I like the idea of fiiiinally putting the Pebbles set to actual use... I don't want the hands from the lich's set. It'd kill my minions. So, how about I use legends entwined with the lich set to allow for a lot more shades, so more of my minions get the shades, and then one big dread shade to buff them all and in the darkness bind them, with Pebbles sans either wand or relic (need to go over the specifics again to remember which would be best replaced)?

What other sets go well with minions?

Yeah, sans wand

Don't need lightning damage on hit, and the bonus spell damage is bad for minion infernal shade

And I can snapshot Lich's and swap out, too. What else would be good in the offhand? Tolmat's?

[wintry flame]

I'm not sure if you went cleaver maybe the last bear set would be good for 30 str

[wintry flame]

without wand you could do apogee, cleaver, sinathia idk

[wintry flame]

probably a shield to go block even if you don't cap

I don't think you want to do something that adds levels and any added damage you get will be a different type other than cold, which is a bit off from lich's scorn and pebbles which is cold damage

[thorn flower]

Will look those up. Thanks

[thorn flower]

Wait, why would additional levels be bad?

Do levels only give additional skill points? Is there no other value to them?

[wintry flame]

it's just likely not needed but might be worthwhile

[thorn flower]

Ah, ok.

Is there ever a reason to go for minion cooldown reduction?

[wintry flame]

if you want revenant to use it's ability more often, idk if it's worth really most damage likely comes from basic attacks

[thorn flower]

Thanks

Just got an exalted item with +290% minion hp, sealed

Also, having 28 minions is fun

*28-30

I'll change it at higher levels, when mages are an actual hindrance, but for now, it's amusing

[sly forge]

btw have anyone tried a apocalypse zombie build?

that is a minion build in the warlock class

which I find funny

[obtuse quest]

Clunky as hell

You got no damage outside of apoc procs

[lost gale]

I've seen video of it and it can kill everything in like a 1-1.5 screen radius per apocalypse combo but its cooldown limited, clunky and does absolutely nothing otherwise

[peak flare]

This guy killed Uberroth with it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7elj8FF_DQ

[sly forge]

tbh he got pretty good gear so I'm not sure if 2 min30 sec like that is considered good

[sand turret]

<@&1161418687471956101>

[sly forge]

hmm, in maxroll's skeletal mage guide, why did they choose the death knight one? https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/build-guides/skeletal-roid-mage-necromancer-guide

[old hull]

Two reasons:
Death knights don't have the innate 14% less damage stat that the casters have.
DKs don't spend time casting a basic spell instead of oblation when at range.

[mystic flame]

how would you guys rate / recommend >> Harvest Flay Lich / Flay Mana Lich / Chaos Bolts Lich in terms of damage and survivability ?

[eternal heath]

how do i build survivability on flay lich? evasion? what happens when i eventually get hit lol

[eternal heath]

im struglin with melee rn cause getting hit a lot lol

[mystic flame]

I'm asking cos' I put together a Thorns Druid and it's pretty chill at 800 corr, except for orobys who 1-shots me at that stage and want to know if other Acolyte builds have dmg and survive better

[eternal heath]

thorns druid is deffinitely a high bar to reach with non-minions acolyte

[mystic flame]

You mean thorns druid is ez mode or ? It's got decent heals, but not much dmg mitigation from my experience

[eternal heath]

i think Harvest triggered from Chaos Bolts is somehow applying frostbite to my lich -_-

[eternal heath]

dont these stack? literally infinite armor, no?

[mystic flame]

Idk .. I even got 100% crit avoidance from the druid passive tree. I'm using a different build from maxroll tho. This is the build I'm using >> https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/ApZmzDxB

[tacit plinth]

I am a flay mana lich with 6.2k health if I have mana i usually dont die,unless some bs one shot mob like necrotic golems

[sly forge]

Yeah, it is extremely hard to play tbh

[sly forge]

Hmm thanks a lot. Tried them. Death Knight is extremely easy to die and the damage of oblation is quite mid. I would be glad if they buff it more.

[fluid ridge]

theres a reason why archmage is the worst of them all

[compact sorrel]

My flay lich is one shot bs at 700 corr:/

[tacit plinth]

You need to get your gear up cause you shouldn't struggle below 2k at all

[compact sorrel]

Can i see your planner?

[tacit plinth]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/oy44p3EO9 mapping very easy like this

[compact sorrel]

got this ;/

[sly forge]

for sacrifice lich, is it better or worse than the profane skeletal mage build?

[sly forge]

how about necromancer?

right now is sacrifice necromancer still good?

since I just saw this one recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prmhODaqMfE

I don't quite understand the reason for doom brand

but from what I am aware, you can stand near the abomination for the damage buff

from dread shades

while summoning skeletons for abomination to devour them, triggering sacrifice

[sly forge]

since I don't see how dread shades is casted on the minions

[rich stag]

No idea if it is better or worse but I got profane skeleton just below 2k corruption pretty comfortably in HC so it’s plenty strong.

Anything above 1k is very minor

[sly forge]

how about bosses, does the skeletal mages die easily?

[rich stag]

Not really but you also wont be face tanking everything

[sly forge]

it is just that, in terms of dps profane skeleton is much much worse compared to flame wraith and abomination necro

[rich stag]

Everything is bad compared to Abom

Abom is just plain busted

[sly forge]

Idk since I used the death rattle amulet and the node that does not drain health but increase damage taken by 30% and the death knight is not very tanky

[rich stag]

As for damage, it’s not bad

Not played Flame Wraith in a long time but Profane’s damage is still good and survivability is great

It’s also really easy to get going, it just works

[sly forge]

well easier to play than flame wraith

you just cast skeletons and the mages will do the job

[rich stag]

What I would personally do and what I do do is just pick something that looks fun and go with it

Most every build can reach 1k corruption these days I’d imagine

Certainly the ones we’re talking about can

Wouldn’t really say Flame Wraith is harder or easier

They’re both easy builds

[sly forge]

flame wraiths require more buttons and for bossing you also cast zombies for optimal dps, but I like it.

I like fire builds and I also like the concept of flame wraith

[rich stag]

https://tenor.com/view/do-it-star-wars-emperor-palpatine-palpatine-gif-799657800635657398

[mystic flame]

can I get a planner for that profane skeleton build or is it on maxroll ?

[sly forge]

maxoll has one

[mystic flame]

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/build-guides/profane-veil-warlock-guide << this one ?

[sly forge]

no

skeletal "roid" mage

[mystic flame]

aah

is it any good ?

[sly forge]

for me it's mid

but good for farming

[sly forge]

can't do uberroth even with perfect gear since death knight is easy to die.

can reach high corruption

[mystic flame]

aha, I'm asking cos' I made a Thorns Druid and I struggle past 800 or so corr

Idk if it's my gear or the char itself

[sly forge]

well if you are saying about reflect druid/shaman then they can kill uberroth (not efficient) and farm corruptions like nothing

[mystic flame]

it's true, mobs die, but Orobys 1-shots me at that point

and I have 100% crit avoid and 3600 HP

[sly forge]

bruh you are not supposed to take oborys's hit at that corruption

[mystic flame]

prolly, but I can't evade for shit xD

[sly forge]

you need to learn how to avoid attacks

[mystic flame]

I know I know ...

[sly forge]

oboryss's attacks at 1k+ corruption can OHKO you

[mystic flame]

is abom or harvest flay lich any better tho ?

[sly forge]

you can tank uberroth but cannot tank any oboryss's attack at that high corruption

[mystic flame]

I slapped on some items for abom at lvl 60 while lvling

[sly forge]

but you can kill them faster than uberroth

[mystic flame]

and wanna transition into a flay lich

[sly forge]

for me abom is better

[tacit plinth]

Mana flay is better

[mystic flame]

and easier to put together I gather ?

[tacit plinth]

For one simple reason

[mystic flame]

yea .. I'm farming for mana flay currently, but I need a transition into that

[tacit plinth]

Its way way more fun ,farms way faster and its incredibly tanky

[sly forge]

reason?

[mystic flame]

either abom or Harvest FLay

[sly forge]

I was talking about dps

if farming then mana flay is better

[tacit plinth]

Dps mana flay kills uber really easy too

[mystic flame]

abom is clunky

[sly forge]

since if you go full glass cannon mode by stacking endurance then abomination deals more damage

can almost reach the level of bear

[tacit plinth]

Yeah but I don't wanna go full glass cannon see we cant all make magical 4t7 items appear on every single gear slot

[sly forge]

just 2 lp items

i said glass cannon

[tacit plinth]

So I say have fun traversing teleporting entire map

[sly forge]

you just stack endurance and forget everything else

[tacit plinth]

Its literally best buils since frostclaw static orb by a mile

[sly forge]

well for farming yes

you can teleport and instakill mobs

for uber I still prefer abom

[tacit plinth]

For bossing too can facetank most things

[sly forge]

if you don't go glass cannon

[mystic flame]

can mana flay tank orobys ?

[tacit plinth]

I mean bear also delete uber in matter of seconds

[sly forge]

I don't think so

anything can't block will be killed by orobyss in one hit

[mystic flame]

you mean tornado wearbear ?

[tacit plinth]

Meh you burst shade if you have enough dos

[tacit plinth]

No summon bear

Summon bear can delete uber faster than abomination but its trash at mapping

Best build this season is mana flay straight up

Cause it does everything exceptionally well

[sly forge]

well I agree if we consider both bossing and mapping

but sometimes I need to charge mana between echoes

[tacit plinth]

You can still facetank shade with death seal but yeah shade can one shot you too specially at 2k corruption

[sly forge]

since you can run out of mana occasionally

[rich stag]

Warpath also does everything well

[tacit plinth]

Meh rarely

That's why you have deathseal literally unkillable until you recharge mana

[sly forge]

how? it's not like you have a lot mana regen or generator in this build

I mean recharge mana after you finish the echoes

before going to the new ones

[tacit plinth]

If you run out of mana often you are playing wrong mana flay

[mystic flame]

is erasing strike what it used to be ?

[tacit plinth]

No but gear is stronger nowdays so its very strong still

[sly forge]

huh how? which nodes of mana flay can restore mana?

[tacit plinth]

Do you even play the build the axe is the mana generator

You should try a build from 0 instead of offline testing it would show you those things you are missing

[sly forge]

that only works for bosses

[tacit plinth]

Rare too btw

Nemesis,champion,rift beast,exile mages

[sly forge]

oh

[tacit plinth]

Count too btw

[sly forge]

for mapping I never use harvest

just spam flay

[tacit plinth]

Then how can you give advice to the other guy if you are doing it wrong

🤣

[sly forge]

just speak from my experience

it could be wrong

[tacit plinth]

For real you have to harvest thats the whole point of the build

[sly forge]

okay

[mystic flame]

so .. is harvest flay lich a good transition into flay mana lich to start with ?

I'm building items for them both

[tacit plinth]

Yes harvest flay scales well

Mana just scales harder

[mystic flame]

got a lvl 60 char .. currently an abom build, but it's clunky as hell

[sly forge]

well you might need gear for harvest in case they decide to nerf mana flay

[tacit plinth]

Try mana flay before they nerf it you will see how fun it is

[mystic flame]

great to see the community is still engaging as I remembered it, coming back to the game

[mystic flame]

oh I will deff, just need the dagger and more mana I guess

[sly forge]

no way they will not pay their attention to mana flay after not seeing how OP it is

and maybe abom and bear too

[mystic flame]

throns stuff also prolly

[sly forge]

I just hope that they won't nerf it to become not uber viable

[tacit plinth]

Thorns is getting wrecked specially and deserved it ,it should do big damage with big investment in gear not nothing

[mystic flame]

idk .. the dmg is not absurdly high imho

I don't have perfect gear or idols, but still

[tacit plinth]

A rogue can put that chest piece and shield and cruise like nothing 1k corr while having no attunment scaling makes no sense

[sly forge]

well that's quite funny

if so they deserves nerf

[tacit plinth]

Applies to all classes thats the problem

Anyway they made it, they will fix it for now abuse what you can and have fun 2 months left

[sly forge]

does this apply to mana flay too?

I don't want it to be nerfed

I want to be optiministic but mana flay is too OP

[tacit plinth]

Every op build gets nerfed who knows maybe they will give erasing strike treatment where it is still op it just needs more gear investment

[sly forge]

well I can accept the erasing strike level

but don't forget about like, static orb, some falcon builds and swarmblade

[mystic flame]

can mana lich get away with T6 stats on gear for mana ?

or it needs T7 only ?

[tacit plinth]

Static orb is decent ty things like vilatria tech but for me that skill got gutted and its dead ,maybe everyone would still be playing lightning blast but if we got old static orb i am sure it would kick ass of uber cause before we didn't have that much flat anyway to give it

And could one shot aberroth

Now you got weaver idols , looking probably at 150 flat extra and static orb had huge more modifiers that scaled very well with each other was perfect you felt powerful,thats why I say mana flay gives me as much fun as I had in 1.1

[compact sorrel]

Can you send again? Link doesnt work, cheers 🙂

[tacit plinth]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/oy442X37

[stuck owl]

Lich, Level 100

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Lich (83) / Warlock (10)

General:

▸ Health: 6,219, Regen: 0/s
▸ Mana: 1,968.82, Regen: 26.72/s
▸ Ward Retention: 232%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 22 Str / 15 Dex / 116 Int / 15 Att / 26 Vit
▸ Resistances: 79% / 79% / 91% / 78% / 78% / 144% / 104%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 55%, Threshold: 2,463
▸ Dodge Chance: 3% (82)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 44% (2,574)

Used skills:

Flay / Reaper Form / Harvest / Marrow Shards / Chaos Bolts

[compact sorrel]

Thanks

I was following maxroll volca build

[wintry flame]

@sly forge if you want things to explore on Necro, there's a lot of exploration to be had in self cast builds utilizing dread shade and Golem. I even have a semi idea I haven't put on a planner using golem, shades, and zombies proc on harvest. Essentially with Golem being able to share your regen and getting % health from vit, you can go regen setups use golem as a dread shade holder and buff yourself or minions that would otherwise be hard to buff, like spectre/zombies. Idk just something I've thought about but haven't really planned out

[tender ridge]

i wonder if the old bone shatter golem builds are worth looking into again with new tools necro has

[sly forge]

hmm, for me the biggest problem for sacrifice is its insane mana cost if you go sacrifice chain

[tender ridge]

they haven't been good since before 1.0

[sly forge]

theoretically they can deal insane damage

as long as you have mana

problem is even rip blood cannot keep up with the insane sacrifice chain mana cost so you cannot make a chain often to deal enough damage

[tender ridge]

wasn't chain also capped on the damage boost it gives specifically because it scaled to absurd degrees

[sly forge]

well yeah

that too but at least they can deal some decent damage if the chain is frequent enough

[lost gale]

Once they fix Abomination's sacrifice node I think it'll be legit

[sly forge]

hmm

yeah for some reason abomination is killed by sacrifice

but the problem is still mana

[lost gale]

you don't need to take chain, abom sacrifices up to 4 minions with each cast anyway, Abom selectively sacrifices only the kind of minions it's made from, so you can use it to make blood specters without sacrificing them or just for sacrifice damage

[lost gale]

mana return on summon skeleton deaths or rip blood with the cast-on-minions mode targeting a horde of blood specters

[sly forge]

but it kinds of deal low damage if we don't chain

most of the damage comes from chaining as many minions as possible right?

[lost gale]

chain costs tons more mana and it's still a 400% effectiveness aoe spell with decent multipliers (minion hp>playerhp, damage vs bleeding and minion count multis are easy to manage)

Abom saccing 4 at a time might be good enough

[sly forge]

no?

it deals low damage

[lost gale]

when did you last try it? Sac got buffed a lot

[sly forge]

even lower than profane skele

trying it right now offline

it deals low damage if we don't chain

[lost gale]

maybe some nodes are broken because it has really great multis for such a high damage effectiveness skill

soul shatter, punishment, great sac, pontifex and necrotic audience are all very usable

[sly forge]

tbh I'm wondering about it right now

since I tried this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjZrsX3nMyM but the result is nowhere the same

this made me wonder if they actually nerfed sacrifice somehow in season 3

[lost gale]

I think sacrifice got twice the damage effectiveness vs when that video was made

so something broke

yep

base skill should be twice as good

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/AL00MMxd
this is obviously ungeared and far from optimised but I remember theorycrafting something like this before

[stuck owl]

Necromancer, Level 100

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Necromancer (68) / Lich (8)

General:

▸ Health: 1,484, Regen: 22/s
▸ Mana: 104.51, Regen: 9.12/s
▸ Ward Retention: 73%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 2 Str / 2 Dex / 19 Int / 2 Att / 12 Vit
▸ Resistances: 3% / 3% / 3% / 3% / 3% / 55% / 15%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 30%, Threshold: 297
▸ Armor Mitigation: 4% (81)

Used skills:

Summon Skeleton / Sacrifice / Assemble Abomination / Dread Shade / Rip Blood

[lost gale]

the other idea I was looking at is using volatile zombies to automate sacrifice, they do it for a lot less mana and the 30% chance to summon zombie on minion death actually makes your rate of sacrificing correlate with the rate at which minions die so you could maybe balance things so you were only really casting summon skeletons as fast as possible to feed the cycle of zombie->sac->skeles die->zombie

using reviving skeletons to make the mana economy work

[wintry flame]

Pyre Golem is better than Bone Golem tbh

[tender ridge]

i couldn't figure out how to get the pyre golem aura to actually deal relevant damage

you jump through a billion hoops just for it to tickle a bit

[lost gale]

penance on bone curse applying to bone golem is the only new tech I can think of for bone shatter, you get an extra 3 casts/s if you get max friendly fire bone shatter chance

before penance got a cooldown it was literally casting bone shatter every frame/tick and destroying the servers with penance if there's an enemy in range (not to mention killing the player unless they got enough "X% chance to gain Y ward when hit" to offset it, in which case they probably had 20k+ ward stable)

[wintry flame]

new minion hp recover on minion death prevents the need to constantly summon skeletons and mages (especially with resummon) for Pyre, then you just stack flat from Lich's, cycle rings, can probs do T-Rex relic too. I only tested with the primo horn wand. if you ahve the flat from Lich's you can run AoD cold convert to buff the cold damage. then you have the vitality stacking for regen/more dmg. It's why i opted to use vessel instead of tyrant's.

[sly forge]

tbh I would like to know the reason too

something definitely not right

[lost gale]

well necro and lich passive trees were reworked too

and lich early passive tree lost a fair bit of damage iirc

I can't really remember what the old necro passive tree offered for player scaled dps

[wintry flame]

you likely aren't using dread shade

[sly forge]

i do use it

damage still horrible

[wintry flame]

whats your planner for it?

[sly forge]

the same used in the video

[wintry flame]

he doesn't have shade on his planner in the vid

[sly forge]

well I replace drain blood with shade

and even use maxed gear for experiment

but still takes like more than 20 secs

[wintry flame]

yeah what's your shade tree

[sly forge]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QnaalVP9

[stuck owl]

Necromancer, Level 100

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Necromancer (31)

General:

▸ Health: 1,240, Regen: 20/s
▸ Mana: 116.51, Regen: 8/s
▸ Ward Retention: 119%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 8 Str / 8 Dex / 26 Int / 8 Att / 14 Vit
▸ Resistances: 0% / 0% / 0% / 0% / 0% / 70% / 30%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 20%, Threshold: 248
▸ Dodge Chance: 1% (32)

Used skills:

Dread Shade

[wintry flame]

their tree is probs this https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/AVaagwWX

[stuck owl]

Necromancer, Level 100

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Necromancer (31)

General:

▸ Health: 1,264, Regen: 20/s
▸ Mana: 124.51, Regen: 8/s
▸ Ward Retention: 127%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 12 Str / 12 Dex / 30 Int / 12 Att / 18 Vit
▸ Resistances: 10% / 10% / 10% / 10% / 10% / 84% / 44%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 20%, Threshold: 253
▸ Dodge Chance: 2% (48)

Used skills:

Dread Shade

[wintry flame]

Flesh Harvest and Doom Brand are probs big elements of their damage in that showcase

[sly forge]

how flesh harvest?

isn't most of the damage comes from sacrifice on my side?

[wintry flame]

Flesh harvest scales all the buffs on dread shade, the flat and the more damage multiplier as the enemy loses hp

So it ramps your kill time

[sly forge]

Hmm, I tried to minmaxed the gear and changed the dread shade buff again. Well the damage increased indeed. But it is not quite uberroth doable. The builds needs standing still to reduce mana cost to cast sacrifice chain. But in uberroth fights, you need to move constantly to avoid the fragility and will be out of mana. The only way to kill it quickly is to hope that the sacrifice chain deals a lot damage if cast but unfortunately it is not the case. The sacrifice chain deals much much less damage than the infernal shade version.

Also you are not tanky enough to stand still and face all uberroth hits for a build that require standing still. Another builds that needs standing still is javelin paladin but its deals way higher damage than sacrifice necro and it has much less mana problem.

[sly forge]

I wonder if I should scale sacrifice damage with fire or physical

since with fire we have good scaling stuffs like throne of ambition and immolator belt

[mystic flame]

Flay Mana Lich is made of paper. I made a lich these days, first transitioned into Harvest Flay Lich and then into Flay Mana Lich and I guess Harvest Flay has a bit less damage in a way, but at least it survives. Mana version is made of carboard. Does it really need 10/10 gear to be viable like the site says ?

[obtuse quest]

Most likely, as to my knowledge it should be as tanky as the harvest version

[tacit plinth]

Flay mana lich is tanky you are missing gear probably idk what build you following

[mystic flame]

maxroll one

[wintry flame]

Yeah I don’t think it was ever uber viable due to mana costs

[hard nacelle]

Anyone available to help me with my current build.

[tacit plinth]

Not to criticize their 1-2 weeks build but yeah you aint mapping with that build only uber bossing i rather spin my own or follow captain noobzor one I am hell of tanky and can farm comfortably 2k corruption

[autumn ridge]

So how far along are you @hard nacelle

[hard nacelle]

Lvl 55

[autumn ridge]

And what do you want to change about the build that you don't like?

[hard nacelle]

Well I feel I have decent gear, but I don't think my damage output is as high as it should be. I can melt most bosses, but clearing seems to be slower than it should be. (Still doing story)

I can't seem to take screenshots. Every time I try it pops me out of the game to my desktop.

[pearl scarab]

what kind of AOE do you have?

melting bosses = damage is good but bad clear = low AOE

[hard nacelle]

Fissure and chaos bolts are my primary AOE

Est damage of fissure is 5964

[pearl scarab]

you might not be there in the campaign yet but never trust the tooltip DPS, always go to the training dummies at Champions Gate

[autumn ridge]

^

[hard nacelle]

Noted

[autumn ridge]

That's a good tip. With Chaos Bolts, make sure you're itemizing properly to increase that skills damage

Focusing on increasing intelligence, spell damage

[pearl scarab]

oh wait whats your weapon right now

have you been upgrading your weapon base a lot?

[autumn ridge]

Also make sure to forge items to increase their stats and help your damage increase

[hard nacelle]

I think I am. The build tells me to focus hard on elemental damage over time.

How do I take screenshots? I can show my gear if I figure it out

[autumn ridge]

F12 takes one with Steam

by default

[pearl scarab]

you can also import your character to last epoch tool's build planner and link it so we can see everything

[autumn ridge]

Also that

😄

[pearl scarab]

(a link to that website is pinned in this chat)

[autumn ridge]

Always forget about that import feature, it's so nice

[pearl scarab]

yee

[sand turret]

Go to last epoch tool.com or maxroll.com and import your char to the build planner and send it to us here

[tacit plinth]

Tooltips means nothing specially for a dot build as long you are killing everything and not struggling keep doing what you are doing

[hard nacelle]

How to I copy my character?

[sand turret]

Build planner. And import

[pearl scarab]

click build planner at the top -> click import on the left -> follow the instructions on the pop up (hover over the ?) for extra help

[autumn ridge]

Look at these helpful community members

🙂

Love this

[pearl scarab]

Derrick you should get this 5$ discord avatar hat

would look great with your PFP

[autumn ridge]

haha wow

It would for sure

[hard nacelle]

I think I did it

https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/BEdd0lrw

[stuck owl]

Warlock, Level 55

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Warlock (46)

General:

▸ Health: 831, Regen: 25.48/s
▸ Mana: 140.56, Regen: 15.68/s
▸ Ward Retention: 72%, Regen: 35/s
▸ Attributes: 0 Str / 0 Dex / 16 Int / 11 Att / 1 Vit
▸ Resistances: 116% / 79% / 57% / 10% / 12% / 109% / 49%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 20%, Threshold: 166
▸ Dodge Chance: 4% (49)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 23% (514)

Used skills:

Chaos Bolts / Chthonic Fissure / Spirit Plague / Rip Blood / Infernal Shade

[hard nacelle]

@autumn ridge I posted my character

[autumn ridge]

Yeah, looking over it

[mystic flame]

is this your build ? >> https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/oy442X37
and this what you followed ? >> https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QdOwq53A
from >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noDwOJbSEkU

[stuck owl]

Lich, Level 100

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3.5

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Lich (83) / Warlock (10)

General:

▸ Health: 6,219, Regen: 0/s
▸ Mana: 1,968.82, Regen: 26.72/s
▸ Ward Retention: 232%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 22 Str / 15 Dex / 116 Int / 15 Att / 26 Vit
▸ Resistances: 79% / 79% / 91% / 78% / 78% / 144% / 104%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 55%, Threshold: 2,463
▸ Dodge Chance: 3% (82)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 44% (2,574)

Used skills:

Flay / Reaper Form / Harvest / Marrow Shards / Chaos Bolts

Lich, Level 100

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3

Class:

Acolyte (20) / Lich (83) / Warlock (10)

General:

▸ Health: 3,480, Regen: 26/s
▸ Mana: 2,568.3, Regen: 22.12/s
▸ Ward Retention: 231%, Regen: 0/s
▸ Attributes: 24 Str / 16 Dex / 103 Int / 16 Att / 22 Vit
▸ Resistances: 75% / 75% / 75% / 80% / 80% / 142% / 122%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 63%, Threshold: 1,586
▸ Dodge Chance: 3% (83)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 28% (1,308)

Used skills:

Flay / Harvest / Marrow Shards / Reaper Form / Chaos Bolts

[autumn ridge]

ONe thing is you're not using Wandering Spirits as a specialized skill and your off hand is meant for it to be used

I would suggest either using it or find something better that improves Chaos Bolts

[hard nacelle]

Yeah I'm just using it for the cast speed and DOT boost tbh. Although the build does suggest that item

[autumn ridge]

Yeah, for sure, I am just saying you can probably find something else that compliments your skills better.

I've been doing more itemization experimentation because they do have a pretty significant impact.

The other thing is, what kind of build do you want to evolve from beyond this?

[hard nacelle]

Not sure yet, I have been having fun with this build and I'm hoping to find something similar

My fire DOT Is almost 1500% I feel I should be wrecking with that

1489% specifically.

[red steppe]

Just having a bunch of increased damage is rarely enough to carry the damage of a build by itself. I'll take a look

[autumn ridge]

I personally love watching build videos, especially if they explain things well. You may like this one.

[red steppe]

Mmmmm it is a leveling build so it's not meant to go super high damage wise, if you're at 1500% you should be doing decently for what it's meant for

[pearl scarab]

its currently great for bosses but lacks clear

needs an infusion of AOE or something for clearing

[hard nacelle]

i posted my build

as in my character

just to clarify

[red steppe]

I'm on phone so it's hard to see the trees on max roll, you're converting chaos bolts to fire right?

So you're mostly doing ignites with them or?

[hard nacelle]

yes

fire seems to be the priority damage with other curses and ailments sprinkled in.

[red steppe]

What's spirit plague doing for you

Is it just for the ward?

When you're clearing you should be putting down a fissure and then spamming chaos bolts

Rip blood and spirit plague kinda seem like a waste of time when clearing unless I'm missing something

Rip blood is obviously good for sustain, but damage wise not so much

And spirit plague seems to just be there for the ward, not damage

[hard nacelle]

rip blood gets proc'd by chaos bolts and i think fissure

[red steppe]

Ah sure, as long as you're not casting it manually it's fine

[hard nacelle]

not even on my bar

[red steppe]

Getting ignite chance on your weapon would be a decent DPS chunk I bet

[hard nacelle]

im pretty sure i get damage boost based on conditions and cursed i have applied to enemies

[red steppe]

Or bleed chance

Preferably both

[hard nacelle]

im pretty sure my ignite chance and bleed chance is pretty high already.

[red steppe]

Your global ones aren't, and skill trees don't provide a ton either

So having an affix on your weapon would be a good chunk still

[hard nacelle]

just need to find the right weapon

[red steppe]

Also this won't result in ignites btw

The conversion from your weapon happens before this kicks in

Doesn't matter much but just thought I'd mention it

[hard nacelle]

so my chaos bolts wont apply ignite?

[red steppe]

You only have 2 points in mania in Flames on the chaos bolt tree so your chaos bolts only have around 130% ignite chance

[red steppe]

They will but the damned chance won't be converted to ignite

It'll just be converted to bleed

[hard nacelle]

so i do both bleed and ignite with chaos bolts

[red steppe]

Yep

[hard nacelle]

what about Doom, for some reason my Doom damage is pretty high

[red steppe]

Btw a T7 ignite affix is like 100%, you're at 140% currently. So it'd be a big boost

[hard nacelle]

witchfire seems to be the highest

[red steppe]

Yeah that makes sense

Witch fire is basically a fat ignite but it doesn't stack

So it's deceiving

It can say it does 50x the damage of your ignites but if you apply 200 ignites then your ignites are doing more

So it just depends

[hard nacelle]

this multiplicative stuff is hard to understand lol

[red steppe]

It'll come with time :P

But yeah for now basically just try getting more bleed and ignite chance

[hard nacelle]

idk, i played a decent amount of Diablo which is also mulitplicative heavy.

[red steppe]

Put more points into mania in Flames in the chaos bolt tree whenever you get more levels

[hard nacelle]

will do!

[red steppe]

Each point should be a good bump

[hard nacelle]

my gear is pretty good for my level though right?

[red steppe]

Also fell fire in fissure

Will spread your ignites better to do more AOE

[red steppe]

Extremely good

[hard nacelle]

thats a relief

thank you, (and everyone) for your support

[red steppe]

Pyrochasm in fissure is kinda worthless btw

You can get rid of it to put more points elsewhere

[hard nacelle]

any suggestion for end game build?

[red steppe]

Do you want to stay on warlock?

[hard nacelle]

well i initially was using this -just- to level but i grew to really enjoy the playstyle. my original goal was mana flay lich. but many people told me not to do it. so im open to suggestions.

[red steppe]

Mana flay lich would be rough as a first character I agree

It's very gear dependant

[hard nacelle]

what would be a good meta build?

[red steppe]

I'm personally not super experienced on acolyte but I know torment warlock is pretty good clear wise so you could go that

https://maxroll.gg/last-epoch/build-guides/torment-warlock-guide

It's pretty similar to your current build

Dot based warlock

But it's necrotic damage instead of fire

[hard nacelle]

interesting.

[red steppe]

It's not the greatest bossing build but it's solid for mapping

Warlock in general isn't super amazing at single target, it excels more in clear from what I've seen. That's not to say you can't do all bosses on it

You could also go necromancer but that's really out of my expertise, I wouldn't know much about that since I never play minions

[hard nacelle]

the lazier the playstyle the better for me lol. i often play this game while listening to audiobooks 🤣

[red steppe]

That's fair lol

[autumn ridge]

I apologize as I got pulled into work stuff

[tacit plinth]

Yep

[obtuse quest]

Your ignite chance isn’t high until you hit 300+% chance to ignite

There’s never enough ignite chance

[tacit plinth]

Whoever told you to not play mana flay lich are dead wrong, it takes gear though so you may want to farm get with torment warlock and then get some gear for mana flay and then transition,I had no acolyte gear but I had some pieces already to wear when I started the build.

[obtuse quest]

They have one fair point: To NOT play it as your first build/character, since it takes gear.

Mana flay without proper gearing feels horrible

[tacit plinth]

You can play harvest flay in the meantime no , or that one also is hard manage at beginning levels?

[obtuse quest]

Better than gearless mana flay, but still requires the boots/weapon to feel decent

[wintry flame]

who let @red steppe in here

[red steppe]

You weren't here smh

[wintry flame]

I didn't see any Necro questions lmao

[obtuse quest]

<@&1161418687471956101> hammer this being

[mystic flame]

You farmed gear for mana flay with the leveling build for acolyte or with another high lvl character ?

[tacit plinth]

Another character I am legacy player

[mystic flame]

Aha, I got some gear for mana flay, but unfortunately I didn't have the idols so I struggled. I farmed some, but they're not perfectly rolled yet. Should I get them rolled with mana and mana regen or wait for HP rolls as well to feel good ?

[tacit plinth]

Pick the highest mana idols you can get and fill your idols with that later on you can farm them for better rolls

[mystic flame]

What about resists ? Where do you get them from ? I currently don't have access to red rings of altaria as they haven't dropped yet. Should I wait for them also as they seem the only way to cap resists on this build ?

[tacit plinth]

The you use either idols to fix resistances until you get one or get some resistances on gear

[mystic flame]

I'm using harvest flay and it's quite fast, but at low corr. Going to farm for idols and rings these days as I want to play that build asap

[tacit plinth]

Harvest flay scales well so you can just play that until you get what you need,clear is pretty good in that build

[mystic flame]

how do you put % inc mana on the chest ?

[dark inlet]

slam with sentinel or rogue item that has that affix

[mystic flame]

oh so you need to play sent to get T7 % mana ?

great

[vapid kindle]

nah you can still get them on any class especially if you have it imprinted it’s just easier to get it on sentinel/rogue

there is an argument for playing sentinel until you get one to imprint but just keep playing you’ll get one and once you have imprint it’s easy

[mystic flame]

whym ? Imprint where exactly ?

Over there ?

[vapid kindle]

yeah like that basically

[mystic flame]

in that bottom right slot exactly ?

[vapid kindle]

there’s 4 nodes like that all of them are good except the champions one to help you farm the gear you want

bottom right one is best generally yeah unless you need jewelry

[mystic flame]

I have Red Ring of Altaria in the other nodes

that I need to imprint

[vapid kindle]

ye that’s good

[mystic flame]

question - If I find a T7 chest can I roll %mana on it with my sent ?

or craft with runes of Havoc and Redemption on it ?

like if it didn't drop on a sent

cos' you can't access %mana on other chars, but you can on sent

[tacit plinth]

The easiest way is you find a Sentinel armor with open prefix you put increase mana then you havoc until you get it , i would get that first then increase health if you ever have access to 2 t7 armor,if 4 affixes are occupied you can use the rune to remove one affix and hope it hits a prefix and do same step above

[mystic flame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noDwOJbSEkU
them guy from this clip stacks spell dmg on Julra rings ?
and what about Valeroot armor ? Why is that important for bossing ?

[vapid kindle]

julra rings give a ton of dmg (1/3 of the time) so they're primarily used for bursting bosses. for general gameplay red rings will serve you better

valeroot rolls with mana on it so it is the highest dps option iirc but chest is pretty flexible, i generally like core of the mountain but it's annoying to farm 2lp

[tacit plinth]

This build has different set ups for mapping and for bossing,and bossing mostly talk about uber cause the rest die very fast either way

[sly forge]

so in abomination, I tried the sacrifice version of this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prmhODaqMfE and for some reason, the abomination sometimes die from devouring minions. Is this a bug?

[sly forge]

currently idk if necro could do sacrifice better than lich

[obtuse quest]

If you made sacrifice chain, it can chain to the abom

[sly forge]

except no? The node literally says that it will not chain to abomination.

[obtuse quest]

It was a bug a while back where that line is lying, it’s probably supposed to be fixed?

[sly forge]

https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/abomination-continues-to-randomly-despawn-when-casting-devour-sacrifice/79132

and for some reason the devs still not fixed it

that bug can invalidate a whole playstyle

[sly forge]

at this rate lich will be the way better choice for sacrifice

[wintry flame]

Lich usually is better for Sac

Especially because of that bug

[quasi falcon]

I have been trying everything I can, has anyone killed Uber Aberroth with (not mana) harvest flay? I would like to see a character sheet that could do it. IDK if I need to try to get more damage or more survivability.

[warped socket]

how do you disable the lich from leaching health?

god damnit

xD

[obtuse quest]

If you mean you as a Lich:

[quasi falcon]

If you are planning to be in Reaper form, no leech is rough. You can try to pump healing from Aura of Decay, but it's not perfect. Also, no leech means no endurance.

[warped socket]

I was planning not to use reaper form. I am trying to make some sort of cold flay melee build low life. But it keeps healing out of low life in melee

I do have scornful blood

[obtuse quest]

Yeah eh, that's a lot of lost damage.

[warped socket]

I see. So low life is a trap then for lich?

[obtuse quest]

Here's your other anti-leech options

[obtuse quest]

Always has been.

The method to play 'lowlife' Lich is with Death Seal.

[warped socket]

I see

[rich stag]

https://tenor.com/view/18carat-run-bad-luck-truth-is-game-was-rigged-fallout-gif-14316707

[formal valley]

hi so im playing this abom build and im so stressed out right now my damage is just a little tickle while the videos showed deal 150k+damage

This is my char https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/owLLN7gX
This is the build i follow https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/QJdmVNmo

idk if im wrong somewhere or im wrong during summoning the abom process. can anybpdy figure where im wrong at? i know i have got the LP stats rolled right but 140k damage difference is too big for that

[stuck owl]

Necromancer, Level 100

:white_check_mark: This character build is verified

Game Cycle / Version:

Beneath Ancient Skies / 1.3

Class:

Acolyte (26) / Necromancer (87)

General:

▸ Health: 2,924, Regen: 22/s
▸ Mana: 138.43, Regen: 8/s
▸ Ward Retention: 261%, Regen: 81/s
▸ Attributes: 102 Str / 11 Dex / 102 Int / 11 Att / 21 Vit
▸ Resistances: 55% / 99% / 74% / 84% / 79% / 78% / 115%

Defenses:

▸ Endurance: 184%, Threshold: 585
▸ Dodge Chance: 4% (124)
▸ Armor Mitigation: 59% (4,211)
▸ Block Chance: 77%, Mitigation: 37% (1,096)
▸ Crit Avoidance: 70%

Used skills:

Summon Skeleton / Infernal Shade / Summon Bone Golem / Dread Shade / Assemble Abomination

This build has a guide:

Turbo Necro T-Rex & Abomination - Final Build | High Corruption | LE - Build Guide by Pixel Aptitude

[formal valley]

anybody know where im wrong at?

took me some times to farm these gears but it cant event beat my veyr ass zookeper league starter

[wintry flame]

you linked the planner not your char

[formal valley]

fixed it

i also dont get the deal why this dude choose dot and poison node on dread shade

[wintry flame]

give me a sec and I can help

[formal valley]

i just cant see where im wrong at tho i suspect it might be how i summon my abom

[wintry flame]

You're missing a lot of main stats and flat damage. you essentially are scaling a low flat damage amount because you only have 44 Str and no Damage stats slammed on your Cleaver. Strength and minion flat should be a priority. I'm not sure your summoning process, but that's issue with your gear

[formal valley]

then i cant do it cuz i will need LP for that

[wintry flame]

Looks like to put the dread shade on T-Rex as well, but it just kills the T-Rex roar uptime and I wouldn't recommend

[wintry flame]

you can run a single T6 or T7 minion melee affix and slam another T5 minion melee on a exalted weapon and it'd likely be better than cleaver at the moment

[formal valley]

maybe u right i should try it

[wintry flame]

yeah then you can just slam the exalted flat affix when you find a cleaver

with 1LP

You should likely be farming for some cleavers with LP and exalted 1H axes

[formal valley]

i just dropped one with 1 lp

now i need the cleaver

*one handed axe with flat

[wintry flame]

yeah you can use havocs on T7s if you have an open suffix to craft the flat or redemption T6/T7 suffixes

[formal valley]

is LP slam a guaranteed hit?no right?

[wintry flame]

T2 julra and above you can choose a guaranteed slam for 1 affix

so use that to get the flat for sure on the cleaver

[formal valley]

What is julra

[pearl snow]

The boss in Temporal Sanctum

[wintry flame]

the dungeon you go to for slams yeah

[formal valley]

okay noted

[peak flare]

So in the next season Lethal Concentration builds will have only 1 Skeleton Rogue and the rest will be Archers and Warriors, meh.

[sly forge]

idk but lethal concentration sucks compared to physical crit build.

[old hull]

Yeah, imo not a good change... it was the only mid-size minion pack kind of build and was pretty unique in that regard

now it'll be just another solo minion build, except you will need to have a whole pack of the useless skeletons with it

having 5 rogues flinging shuriken into a pack was pretty sweet and made the clear relatively decent

[wintry flame]

yeah, idk I told Justin that when he replied on Reddit. unless the changes to Dread Phalanx are good enough to offset that loss.

[peak flare]

It will go from 80% more damage to 100% more damage and 40% more health to 50% more health.

[old hull]

I haven't done the math on the new IO to see if the overall single target rogue damage goes up/down, plus now it will gain solo shade benefits (or not, since for lethal con you still want dread shade affecting you). The DP change is nice, but relatively minor.
I probably won't bother to look into it tbh... I'll probably rather see if I can get a different skele setup to work once we see the changes.

DP may not even be much, if any, damage boost to rogue now

[wintry flame]

oh wait, I read the node wrong let me redo math

Alright, well IO is def stronger on paper at least and you still want to go DP

I misread the node stating the more dmg per skeleton scaled with points. I thought it was just enabled as 25% per, not that it scaled up to 100%

[old hull]

Yeah, I guess the 100% per other skele breaks even for losing all your other rogues, then the now baseline 200% more on IO is better than current IO

Seems like crit may beat out poison now

[wintry flame]

crit does beat out poison

poison is just way easier to gear

[old hull]

Well then crit is about to eliminate the gearing thing, too

[wintry flame]

yeah if everything else is similar in the tree then crit will come online super fast and be strong af

[tender ridge]

⁨We’ve also changed many of the tree’s “more hit damage” modifiers into “more damage” to allow for ailment builds.⁩

more bad marrow shards builds for me to try

[tender ridge]

i guess with bleed overload you could use rip blood to sustain the health costs of marrow shards

probably bad but it's cool that they're at least giving it the option

[sly forge]

tbh I fail to see that how the reworked skeletons will be any better.

in Season 4

[tacit plinth]

I don't understand the rogue node

Its 1 rogue,it still gets 200% more damage but now its only one right and what it gets 100%more damage per skeleton in your army or is it 25 % per skeleton

Maybe someone can clarify that either way gonna give it a try next season

[old hull]

It's 25% per point per non-rogue skeleton, so 100% per non-rogue at 4/4 points

It should be stronger than before, but now it'll be a solo minion build, basically. Not sure how much value having the non-rogue skeletons will add, but they are also just extra minions to babysit.

[sly forge]

So

1. grant 25% more damage per skeleton you control

2. grant 50% damage and 50% reduced cooldown speed

unless I have problem understanding English

the Individual operator nodes grant both bonuses right?

Because I am extremely confused the way they state

if it grant both bonus then how much does the non rogue worth?

can rogue even reach half of the strength of abomination?

so far, wraith and abomination seems untouched

[wintry flame]

It grants both bonuses to one rogue

[wintry flame]

No, I doubt it. I can do the multi comparison in a second tho

[wintry flame]

These are just Skele changes we don’t know balance outside of this

[sly forge]

huh so EHG will be secretive about whatever they are going to change?

what's the point of being secretive?

[obtuse quest]

So you can't full plan out setups/builds before patch day

[wintry flame]

I mean it's just teasers, not patch notes.

[sly forge]

okay, so if I have 8 skeleton warriors and 1 rogue, then the node would give me 3x rogue damage due to the first bonus.

if I take the dread phalnax then I have 4 skeleton warriots get 2x rogue damage and another 2x rogue damage due to the first bonus

which means taking dread phalnax is still better

[old hull]

The patch isn't finalized yet. Even the teasers they've given are all subject to change before the patch goes live.

[wintry flame]

I assumed max investment, well - 1 skele since most probs won't take the Champion mod. Without DP, you'd want 12 skeletons and at max your rogue would get, a 200% & 1100% multi. With DP, you'd want 11 skeletons, so a little less investment, and at max you'd get the same 200%, and additional 100%, and 500% multi. It ends up being the same but with less investment at max. You also increase the survivability of your skeletons with Dread Phalanx which would hopefully increase uptime.

I think Dread is just an automatic take, unless there are other changes I'm unaware about on the tree

[old hull]

People got upset about summon skele icon being in the minion rework video, can't imagine how it would be if they released a list of detailed changes and then the actual patch ends up totally different lol

I really just hope that the other skeleton types will get a chance to be viable. The fire arrow change was long overdue, but definitely not enough on its own.

[wintry flame]

For their basic attack the single rogue will be doing ~109% more dmg than Abom assuming all the multis it has access to, but Abom has cooldown abilities that will push it far beyond anything Rogue has access to (like 11.5x the damage of rogue)

That's in the case of double strike, which has some of the craziest scaling lmao

[wintry flame]

If the other variants have no scaling multis or their inherent stats don't change, then yeah it's just gonna be the same result. Except we will probs have less build variation in Skeleton builds.

Well I say that but the conversions might open up some options. I just don't know if they will be competitive.

[old hull]

Unless something changes, I'll just expect cold conversion will be the default for archers... have we even seen anything for warriors specifically?

[wintry flame]

No changes to warriors (so far) and yeah probably cold is best, especially with frostbite access.

[tender ridge]

Pour one out for the most broken primordial spear that never got to live

[old hull]

And another for hand of judgment... we even got to play with that one for a few days on a voided event lol

[empty agate]

I still do not understand why you would waste a point on Phalanx, I mean if you end up with an odd number of minions maybe, but even then you lose so much shred, poison, bleed, ignite, freeze that it still does not seem worth it to waste a point into it

[old hull]

If you have an odd number of skeletons, it will now be equivalent to getting +1 max skeletons. You would lose shred as well, true, but that has diminishing returns so you probably won't lose much damage from that. For damage ailments, the stack size difference doesn't matter.
Even with an even number of skeletons, it will give a bunch of health for 1 point (which skeletons sorely need) and makes the number more manageable - for example, you are able to have infernal shade on each of your skeletons with dread phalanx, but maybe half of them otherwise.

[wintry flame]

And each stack of said ailment is more potent, so instances for clear actually become better rather than worse. Same with Crit. As each skeleton is individually stronger and could target/clear packs alone rather than needing all your minions to focus to get full dmg output. It's relatively the same total damage output at baseline, but easier to manage less minions and opens opportunities like @old hull said with infernal shade or even dread shade applying to each of them.

[tender ridge]

the new IO does make me want to try out poison rogue again with Lethal Concentration

it already did a good bit of damage last time I tried it a couple seasons ago, it just struggled to keep the skellies alive

[empty agate]

I can somewhat understand that, the problem lays with the fact that you are basically wasting a point to get the same effect with fewer minions. Individual crits are higher, but you will get less so it = the same. This is magnified if you go with a full archer build as they somewhat ignore the dumb minion AI and just shoot from range. It just honestly feels that it does not offer enough, or something different for wasting a precious point. I guess it feels like you are wasting a point for nothing more than a cosmetic effect its just a massive waste. For acolyte the devs have really tried to force necros to remove skill trees to make other ones viable and to me that should never happen. While i really hate sacrificing minions i wouldnt mind as much if it didnt then ban me from using them at all, basically removing an entire skill slot.

Right now if you are not single minion then minions feel like complete trash, way to much investment to get extremely sub par payoff, and, to be honest if you are going single minion then just go beastmaster and have a better time, with less investment.

to me phalanx should give you a commander that makes your skeletons better based on how many you have, it would give you an incentive to trying to get as many as possible

[old hull]

Yeah, this is my complaint about the change coming to individual operator. Rogues were one of the few multi-minion builds available, plus it had an interesting interaction with dread phalanx. Now it gets rid of the interesting interaction and makes rogue just another solo minion build.

[obtuse quest]

Less minions to command=less minions to manage=less buffing to do.
It's the same 'logic' on how single minion builds are always better than army minions.

[empty agate]

@obtuse quest the big minions just have massive base stats and multipliers so honestly you would need like 50 + of the small ones to even come close but you cant generate that many small ones. Also a lot of the item buffs are single target. A good example of a swarm build was the old summon wraiths, you could use them well because there was no limit, now the skill besides getting wraithlord or trying to turn them into a stupid tower is F tier at best. Devs need to stop trying to force necro into single minion, thats beastmaster, and they do it much better. They need to make swarms and zoo builds viable, and stop with the non perm minion trash

[obtuse quest]

It doesn't help that the best buffs for minions are MUCH easier to deal with if you're running solo minion or has a limit (Both shades).

[wintry flame]

At baseline it's the same, but you get access to more multipliers and atk/cast speed via shades with less minions, it lowers your investment, increases survivability, and it's QoL. There's always more benefit going Dread Phalanx, so it's not a wasted point.

[wintry flame]

I mean the rounding effect sort of does that in a way. since it rounds up. If you could get 19 skeletons, then it would be worth but the cap for skeletons would only allow you to get 1 or 2 more atm and is too expensive gear wise. It's just not worth.

[wintry flame]

This whole army vs solo minions is outdated. Idk why it's believe to be that way. Abom is the only outlier solo minion on Necro. The builds that follow all have multiple minions anywhere from 5-20. Archmage/Golem/Wraithlord are all meh. And currently we don't know what the remaining changes to Skeletons will be so while the individual rogue will be strong it might have a pack feel with trying to maximize Individual Operator and buff the other minions.

[wintry flame]

Flame Wraiths are not F tier. Flame Wraiths, Minion Army, and Rogues currently excel in many ways compared to any solo build outside of Abom.

[empty agate]

how do you use the flame wraiths?

[wintry flame]

The same way they've always been used

Aberrant's Call and make them totems

[empty agate]

lulz exactly why i said besides that, its totems or wraithlord although after nerf its meh

[wintry flame]

Wraithlord is garbage

it's not nearly as good. And you can use Wraiths in probably any other form and they will perform better than other solo builds lmao

No one explores the builds on Necro lmao

But I'm sure putrid wraiths and melee wraiths all could do pretty exceptional damage compared to solo builds

[empty agate]

the wraiths need to remove hardcap for perm minions, if they start at 2 but you could get the nodes to go up to 4 they would be ok, 2 is trash

[wintry flame]

2 does roughly the same damage as the 8 you can get in tree, last I tested

the main reason Wraiths compete is due to the staff

[empty agate]

agree on staff for flame minions, otherwise they just dont cut it

[wintry flame]

but 2 Wraiths in an army build are worth the same as the 8 wraiths

[empty agate]

im going to disagree with that, 2 wraiths just dont do the damage or have the coverage to compete , i mean maybe vs skeles but thats a really low bar

[wintry flame]

In an army build they are your 2nd highest damage dealers, behind rogues.

[empty agate]

considering that army builds are so low for the massive investment that is really not saying much

[wintry flame]

Idk what investment it's near identical gear to other phys builds. The cold setup isn't that crazy gear requirements either.

It's got high damage ramp in campaign to monos and continues to scale over 20mil dmg

[sly forge]

Wraithlord deals nowhere near the damage of flame wraith in this patch

Flamd wraith is actually very good

[old hull]

The perma wraiths are only equal to 5.6 wraiths damagewise, less than the base wraith cap. What makes them worth 8?

[sly forge]

Only behind abomination

[slow oxide]

Oblation (sacrifice) multi skele mage is quite good... Giga ward sustain from constant skele deaths and zombies

[wintry flame]

mana

[wintry flame]

it's really bad dps

[slow oxide]

It's over 30mil?

[wintry flame]

I have never seen it do over 30mil

[slow oxide]

Lich set, stack int

[wintry flame]

yeah I've tested, didn't do 30mil

[slow oxide]

Let me see if I have a video

[wintry flame]

kk

[slow oxide]

Nothing uploaded. I'll check my computer tomorrow. It's been a few months since I played the build last. I know it was sub 1 min boss dummy though

[sly forge]

Profane skeletons is bad

[slow oxide]

Granted against actually enemies you won't get perfect DPS

[sly forge]

Much much worse than flame wraith and crit rogues

And mages can dies quickly against bosses

[wintry flame]

I guess I'm curious your mana amount and maybe you have a diff setup for casting

[slow oxide]

Maxed infernal shade snapshot dread shade, swap to the set shield for 100% resummon skeles, necrotic convert on zombies with one cycle ring, standard 9 skeles warriors, death Knight mages so they stand on top of where the zombies spawn so they get the shade aura buff

Use unspecd harvest to proc the more damage from the sword

I'm about to go to sleep. I'll see if I have a planner saved and or video tomorrow after work

[wintry flame]

sounds good

[sly forge]

btw anyone know what happened to the build of using bone golem to trigger bone shatter?

since I don't see anyone consider using it

has that build been nerfed

[obtuse quest]

That's always been a "zero effort for passing base empowered easily" kind of build that has pretty mid ceiling.

It was also bugged for half a season so...

[sly forge]

huh, what's the bug?

[obtuse quest]

It didn't work at all.

Bone shatter didn't happen.

[sly forge]

did it work in previous season?

if yes how did not it work in this season?

[obtuse quest]

Because bugs are funny.

[sly forge]

bruh I don't understand how EHG works

[obtuse quest]

WE had a case of a skill that got zero changes one season and somehow bugged to be unusable the same season until a hotfix

[sly forge]

a featured that worked fine in the last season suddently bugged in this season

if they did not make any change in that node then how is it bugged?

[obtuse quest]

Questions that you'll never get an answer to.

It was this one, just fixed this season LMAO

[sly forge]

hmm so they fixed it right?

[obtuse quest]

Just this season, yes.

But it is currently fixed

[sly forge]

ah ok

Idk if it offers great damage

[obtuse quest]

But it still is just a "build you use until you use an actual build" kinf of build.

[sly forge]

or will destroy my CPU

[obtuse quest]

Because it takes no gear to work

[sly forge]

hmm so the damage is not good?

[obtuse quest]

It won't. You don't have the cast speed.

[obtuse quest]

Okay at best.

[tender ridge]

tfw a bugged branch from a long time ago makes it to production on accident

[sly forge]

hmm if okay is equivalent to profane skeletal mages then might not worth using

[obtuse quest]

Retaliation chance max is 25%.
Betrayal makes it so your damage towards it has 75% chance to retaliate. (Rip blood is the default choice to trigger it)

More rip bloods=more bone shatters

But since it's never 100% and your cast speed is never stupid high...

Is the damage good? FOr what it costs (Nothing), it's pretty good.

[sly forge]

idk I would rather using costly builds like mana flay but provide good result since it gives more satisfication

[obtuse quest]

It's basically was once the default necro leveling build.

[sly forge]

but not any endgame build?

since y know, the build is physical based

I thought I could use t rex and aura of decay to buff it

but if it is not good then I won't use it.

[obtuse quest]

Don't think anyone tested a full power version this season. I imagine it's too active for power not worth it's setup

[sly forge]

@obtuse quest for some reason this guy caused huge damage with bone shatter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBcv6la1Cfo

not sure if it is a bug

[obtuse quest]

AHAHAH the penance arc

It's fixed iirc, but here's the reason why it happened:

[sly forge]

@obtuse quest It is fixed that it only trigger once every 0.35 sec right? For that it only reduce the frequency of bone shatter or something?

If it only reduce the frequency then it still does not remove the raw damage of each it as I see so far

[obtuse quest]

It removes it's 2nd biggest weakness of frequency.
Being able to always proc it basically 3 times a second is way more than how the usual method can do it.

[sly forge]

@obtuse quest yeah but penance only affect frequency right?

[obtuse quest]

(Also,it's about 200k per hit, the numbers are bigger because all the hits are merged due to how damage numbers works.)

[sly forge]

dude I did not know this

I thought each bone shatter hit would deal like 11-43M for some reason which is crazy

[obtuse quest]

Don't you run dot builds, this is something most people notice when they understand dummy testing

Yeah it's 11mil because it's a stupid amount of hits stacked

[sly forge]

Huh I thought dot builds are like they deal damage equal to the amount of aliment stacked

hit does not stack

[obtuse quest]

Hit damage 'stacks' for damage numbers showing up if you hit often enough.

[sly forge]

yeah, I did not know this

[obtuse quest]

The 0.35 sec is placed BECAUSE of that setup btw.

I wonder why

[sly forge]

well that should be done

no point playing a build that would harm my computer

[sly forge]

200k per hit is too low

well, maybe the frequency can be better

[sly forge]

Hmm, unfortunately the bone shatter build seems not great

so necro has not many good build here

abomination

infernal shade

wraith

wraith can be very good but needs you to stay active and press more buttons

skeletal rogues are also very good but after minmaxing wraiths a bit now they are not good as wraith and playstyle and gear is too similar to abomination

not sure about minion army since I don't have enough dread shades

[slow oxide]

It was beyond s tier until they put a cap on the proc rate of that curse... It also would frequently crash your game, and had the possibility to make entire server branches chug

Tbh my hope is they double or triple the rate per second that you are allowed to self damage with the curse

But that also was a warlock version

[compact sorrel]

I keep.finding 2lp wraithlord helmets...miss that build

[wintry flame]

What do you need enough dread shades for?

[sly forge]

like, even if I equip the lich set I will have 9 dread shades at most

while minion army needs much more

for dread shade buff to reach potential I would need the node that provides 40% more damage

but that node disables aura buff

so I have to buff each minion a dread shade and takes the everlasting poison node

unfortunately even if I equip takes the add shade nodes in infernal shade, dread shade and lich set I will only have 9 shades at most if I remember correctly

[sly forge]

unfortunately wraithlord is way too mid now

meanwhile I found that sacrifice lich is a very good build

which is ironic for a necromancer themed spell

@wintry flame I really look forward to the skeleton reworks in the next season

I just need this game to give an uber viable minion army build

[wintry flame]

you just snapshot the flat dmg and build int

you don't care about the multi in that case

[sly forge]

huh don't quite get the point

like I said there is a node in dread shades that gives 40% more damage right?

that is a huge buff

[wintry flame]

yeah so instead you snapshot the 150 flat damage from lich's scorn with 10 shades

you don't care about other shades at that point

[sly forge]

150 flat damage or penetration?

[wintry flame]

you get the 150 flat from the shade and the pen from the int

[sly forge]

wait, so you use 1 dread shade

and the rest are infernal shades

the dread shade would give 150 flat damage?

@wintry flame did I understand it correctly?

[wintry flame]

I wouldn't run the infernal shades unless you intend on snapshotting the skill tree, which you probably won't. So it'd be just the lich's scorn with 9 shades, so 135 flat. Then you run the 3 minion skills, AoD, and Dread Shade

[sly forge]

hmm, I'm not sure if I understand correctly

but you don't spec infernal shades

then how can you increase the flat damage from dread shade?

[wintry flame]

correct, you can leave it unspecced go to dummy area, put 9 shades out and then snapshot the final dread shade

with the lich set you and the extra shade in Dread you'll have 9 shades

[sly forge]

since the catalyst says "Cold Damage with Spells and Attacks per Attached Infernal Shade for Minions affected by Dread Shade"

[wintry flame]

speccing infernal shade gives you +1 and the ability to place on minions but you wouldn't want the hassle. It is more dmg but I think it's only a little bit. To get the full damage out of snapshotting you'd respec both dread shade and infernal shade AND you'd swap to a phys + tyrant setup and str/endurance stack.

[sly forge]

so you need maximal infernal shades attached to have that flat bonus

[wintry flame]

It counts it at cast

it doesn't refresh

so if you have 9 shades out

and then put dread shade, that dread shade will always give flat as if there are 9 shades even if those shades are gone

[sly forge]

so you are saying that I would spec infernal shade first

then give the shades

[wintry flame]

in your case you don't have to unless you want to abuse for +15 extra flat dmg

[sly forge]

then unspec it

okay I'm confused here

first, can you explain how do we get 150 flat damage from dread shades? Does the dread shade aura stack or something?

[wintry flame]

when you cast Dread Shade it looks at how many infernal shades are out at case and gives the buff of +15 per infernal shade. This happens at cast, so if you have 10 shades out it gives 150 flat. As long as the Dread shade is not recast or the minion doesn't die it will always give 150 flat until you logout, regardless of if you have 0 infernal shades after.

to get 150 flat you need 10 shades, 1 from dread shade tree, 1 from infernal shade tree, the base 4, and the 4 from the set.

but you don't usually snapshot skills so I was saying forget the one from infernal shade and just do 9 shades

so you don't have to respec and level up the other skill

[sly forge]

okay so where can I find 9 enemies to cast 9 infernal shades?

[wintry flame]

the dummy area

[sly forge]

ah, but does the infernal shades last long enough?

since it requires moving between the dummies

[wintry flame]

you can do it, it is a bit more difficult than the respeccing, but the shade range isn't limited so you can position yourself to not have to move far.

[sly forge]

hmm

[wintry flame]

I believe it also will latch to a nearby target rather than need precise targeting

[sly forge]

I hope the result will be good

I get that abominations are outliers but I expect the build will have enough dps for uber like this other beastmaster builds, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRvqPg-3V1k&t=50s

[wintry flame]

yeah but doing uber managing a minion army is very tough

if at any point the minion with shade dies you lose your damage

[sly forge]

well tbh I'm not sure how tanky the minions are

especially the death knights

[wintry flame]

yeah Uber is probably one of the more problematic areas for minion survivability, but if you have enough vit, one or 2 minion HP affixes, and use the Tyrant's they should be fine. That's if they have a multiplier in their tree, but I don't think DKs do. They just have really good sustain as crit.

[tender ridge]

does dread shade persist between zones if you have the inf-duration node?

[wintry flame]

yes

[tender ridge]

neato

[sly forge]

Tbh right now I'm pretty afraid about how they will nerf the classes

[tender ridge]

bearquake is getting hit somehow for sure. I don't really think acolyte needs anything except maybe abom? but I haven't really followed it the whole season just remember people stomping things when they weren't getting affected by bugs

[sly forge]

Because I'm not sure about other games, but this game is so much bad at balancing, has many bugs and their balancing definition is pretty weird: They nefed some S tier classes become non uber viable.

[sly forge]

I heard that wraithlord was as strong as abom

If they nerf wraithlord to become like abom then I will quit this game

This kind of nerf is too unstable for me to enjoy

[tender ridge]

i was watching the balance discussions in here the other night and it was funny seeing every single build someone mentioned have someone else say "That build is trash"

[sly forge]

Like the game is still in early access instead of a complete game. I know there will be buff/nerf but this game make so many bugs and nerfs

[tender ridge]

meanwhile I know for a fact my homebrews are pretty bad

[tender ridge]

this is doomer mentality. they do more than just nerf builds and they also acknowledge when they've missed the mark or gone too far

[sly forge]

Maybe, but I really hope that things like class builds will be more stable.

And nerfing a build from S tier to become under B tier is too much

[obtuse quest]

Falconner exists. It'll be fine.

[sly forge]

If I recalled correctly bleed and some other falconer builds were top in season 2.

[obtuse quest]

Top? They were effectively the only builds people were playing on rogue.

They're still pretty much rogue's best builds in season 3.

[tender ridge]

yeah things like that absolutely deserved their nerfs

[obtuse quest]

Still top after being nerfed, one of those nerfs didn't even matter lmao

[sly forge]

I thought that would be acid flask and ballista now

[obtuse quest]

Ballista has always been hovering near the top.

Acid flask is equal at best.

[tender ridge]

I genuinely hate that explosive flask builds are called "acid flask" considering you don't even cast acid flask

[sly forge]

That is fire flask

Umbral blades still good

[tender ridge]

yeah and that's the builds that people play. acid flask as a skill is purely relegated to procs from explosive trap

because the DoT nodes are just bad

[sly forge]

If I want some nerf I would want the level like umbral blades

[tender ridge]

marrow shards is getting some cool changes in the coming patch

so I get to play more bad marrow shards builds

[sly forge]

Idk marrow shards will be used for lich builds anyway and lich has too many good builds already

Maybe they can nerf mana flay a bit that make "killing uberroth in 36 sec" down to "killing uberroth in 1 min".

It's tankier than shattered blade, does more dps than shattered blade and clear faster than shattered blade and has same melee playstyle like shattered blade

So why would I play shattered blade right now?

[tender ridge]

yeah but those are all proccing it with flay. I like self casting it because I like the animation of just throwing your bones at people

[sly forge]

And proccing wia rip blood too

Anything that is not summoning, not fissure, not profane veil will be best on lich

[tender ridge]

there could be some interesting bleed builds with marrow shards now that some of the hit-damage nodes are being turned into generic more damage

[sly forge]

Even necro's sacrifice skill is still best on lich

[tender ridge]

when using the skill itself for hit damage, yeah

infernal shade warlock is still good and that uses sacrifice

I've seen a necro build in here using sacrifice as well. I think it was also an infernal shade build

[sly forge]

Infernal shade is best on necro, I forgot that

It needs dread shade to maximize damage

[obtuse quest]

That is closer to a "Spellblade is utter ass" than a Flay problem.

[tender ridge]

surely the rework will fix it :cope:

my ignite flame reave build I made was fun but didn't scale too well. absolutely shredded everything through like 300c but plataeu'd fast after that

[sly forge]

Flame reave needs a buff

That build can do anything except Uber

Because it does not deal enough dps and spellblade is too easy too die

Flame reave would be good if the build has the tankiness of lich or sentinel

With current dps

[obtuse quest]

That's mostly a spellblade issue yeah.

[tender ridge]

i really hope we start seeing more full spoilers instead of just teasers soon. I wanna see the new Marrow Shards skill tree