💀┃acolyte

[upper wedge]

ssshh

[arctic oar]

Yeah async trading isn't an auction house

Also the fee is a little cringy

[upper wedge]

we gotta take what we can

[charred ridge]

stall system reminds me of older MMOs

[upper wedge]

it took us a decade to get this much

[charred ridge]

i dont mind it just cus of nostalgia but ya

it's still a bit silly compared to a real AH

but older MMOs still had better stalls

[arctic oar]

Worst part for me is that the UI and technology already exists since they did the orb conversion thingy in poe1's farmville season

[upper wedge]

"What's the point of ground items being unidentified?" "Diablo 2"

[arctic oar]

Cocooned items moment

💯

[vapid kindle]

what an absolute miss cocooned items were lmaoooo

[charred ridge]

it's ok because if you're playing the game optimally (unclaimed trove all day long) you will never see a cocooned item 🙂

[upper wedge]

"Why is the Countess echo in LE so long and mazey?" "Diablo 2"

[vapid kindle]

yipee another 1LP quicksilver coil!!!!

[charred ridge]

i think i got a 4lp from a cocoon this season

[upper wedge]

why are ARPG makers so obsessed with D2 lmao

[arctic oar]

Unironically this is also the case with the unique on lizards. Biggest scam in the entire tree

[charred ridge]

which of course was worthless since 4lps are generally worthless

[arctic oar]

I'm trying to think of a single good unique I pulled

Like 0lp razors or something

[charred ridge]

uniques from lizards aren't bad on MG

[hybrid onyx]

I played diablo 2, when I was 12. I am 35 now. It was a good game then, but not nessesarly a good one now.

[arctic oar]

It's nice if you already have a strong account for limited blasting sessions

[charred ridge]

anything that gives a decent quantity of uniques in MG is pretty fine, there's a wide variety of items that sell well at 1/2lp

[arctic oar]

Yeah I guess it can serve as passive income

[charred ridge]

it's just irrelevant in CoF because you need specific drops and you do that via prophecies or imprints

[arctic oar]

But then again you can just sell Uber loot all day as well

[upper wedge]

you think you do, but you don't

[charred ridge]

idk about 1.3 but in 1.2 i would not consider uber farming a good moneymaking strat

[arctic oar]

and I don't mean just glove and relic. portents, nihi, even the bad ones for rerolling idk

Oh really

Interesting

[charred ridge]

i doubt it's good in 1.3 either like

uber is just not really hard to farm or anything, people are doing it, there's a supply

[arctic oar]

I'm a complete mg scrub, and I'm still shocked

I'd figure new players grab those instantly

maybe market isn't big enough for long enough

Especially this season

[charred ridge]

yeah but there should be a large enough supply of items compared to what you can farm on your own

[vapid kindle]

i do not care how much qol mg gets i absolutely cba to play trade

[charred ridge]

in 1.2 i could run 50 ubers and not find a single 1LP SW yet they were 300mil on the market (with dupe inflation)

like yeah im not gonna do uber for an hour to maybe make 300mil

im just gonna do troves, craft a few t7t7 exalted bases for meta builds and make 6 gold caps

how bout that one

[arctic oar]

If prophecy UI keeps being this atrocious in heavily considering it. I'm at my limit of rerolling "chance for 8 weaver's will armor"

[arctic oar]

I remember that, crazy times

[upper wedge]

Let's pray that I actually commit to my mage now instead of making alt char #4

[arctic oar]

Market did stay healthier

[charred ridge]

yeah market rn is baiting me into playing MG in 1.4

[arctic oar]

Then again if season 4 drops around the holidays, more people will have free time to break something and find another dupe 😭

[upper wedge]

do we even have specifics for 1.4?

[charred ridge]

no we know nothing about 1.4

[vapid kindle]

they will add a reroll hotkey in 1.4, surely

[charred ridge]

and if i was going to guess it's probably lame idk

[arctic oar]

We do know skill sigils won't be in it F

[vapid kindle]

totally not coping

[arctic oar]

thank god for AHK

[charred ridge]

im kinda dooming about LE development after what we got in 1.3

[arctic oar]

Saved my life

[charred ridge]

dont let EHG see this msg monka

[arctic oar]

Meanwhile every trash falconer on the planet:

[upper wedge]

why do you dislike 1.3?

[charred ridge]

i don't dislike 1.3 but it didn't address endgame issues that need to be addressed

[vapid kindle]

can’t wait for circle of fortune patch notes: players now get one free lens when joining COF to help them buy their first prophecy!

[charred ridge]

honestly they killed that in 1.3, that was perhaps the biggest W

[arctic oar]

I like primordials, I hate t8s, I like rift beasts, I hate that rifts don't spawn in woven echoes. It's always get something that comes with a cost

[charred ridge]

EHG is actually catering towards players like you that reroll a lot and do the campaign and don't reach level 100

[arctic oar]

yo we still pulled a sub 1min with the most nerfed class in the game, I'm not even mad

[upper wedge]

like what?

[arctic oar]

Like falconer actually decent

[charred ridge]

so you probably won't mind the development curve

[charred ridge]

the whole high end gameplay loop is running 1 (one) map

[vapid kindle]

i actually like the fact that rift beasts don’t spawn in woven echoes IF rampant coast spawn rate wasn’t borked to the moon

[charred ridge]

you'd think they would address that

[upper wedge]

it's the same in poe 1, people like it there specifically

[charred ridge]

poe also has a better reward structure

let me clarify

[arctic oar]

I don't know, I don't like having to run bad value maps just so I can maybe see a rift in a world where rampant doesn't exist

[charred ridge]

the whole high end gameplay loop is running 1 map and finding an item maybe every 15 minutes

sometimes you find 5 items in 2 minutes and sometimes you don't find an item in a whole ass hour

and the whole time you are just running 1 map

???????????????

it's insane

[upper wedge]

I mean you can run random echoes, it's just optimal to spam the same map.

[arctic oar]

I suggested before that regular echoes should have 3 chests. I don't think it would be that crazy

[upper wedge]

same in PoE1

[charred ridge]

but EHG doesn't care because the ppl doing that are not their target audience

[charred ridge]

no you can't

i mean you can

[arctic oar]

You can but you can't

[charred ridge]

but you will literally get 10 times less items

[arctic oar]

You can also stay in normal monos

It's not about what you can do

[charred ridge]

10 times is probably being generous

[arctic oar]

But about what you should be doing

[charred ridge]

might be 20 times less

it's like not even anywhere close

[arctic oar]

Yeah it's galaxies apart

[hybrid onyx]

And at the same time running that same map chasing that dopamin rush is so addicting! Just 1 more then i am done

[arctic oar]

To be fair this has been d2 for the past 30 years

The non target audience is used to it

😭

[vapid kindle]

i think that means there are separate buckets depending on what you’re farming for and you can target what you’re in need of at that moment, it introduces more variety to the gameplay. i think it would be a good thing (again imprinting rampant coast completely breaks this argument though)

[hybrid onyx]

I was heavily addicted to d2 aswell.

[upper wedge]

They tried to pivot away from it in PoE2 and PoE1 people complained because they wanted to keep running the same map

🤷‍♀️

[charred ridge]

i dont think you realize how much more balanced poe is in terms of loot than LE

[arctic oar]

I can see a world where normal echoes don't suck, and woven echoes contain those mechanics as well since the price balances them out (or can balance them out better with more price balancing idk)

[charred ridge]

the mere fact that you have tradeable currency in poe

[arctic oar]

Regular echoes are incredibly low value

[charred ridge]

and i know it doesn't concern you because you play SSF but it concerns the trade league playerbase

which i can only imagine must be like 95% of ppl

[hybrid onyx]

Doing baal runs for weeks seeing ur Exp bar slowly fill up, and once ur 97 or whatever you have to add more things to the rotation

[vapid kindle]

if you need to run regular echoes to get good prims that is no longer the case

[charred ridge]

even if the currency is not tradeable, poe has loot that says you've made progress

[arctic oar]

It's still 1 item vs the entire rest of your kit

[charred ridge]

LE doesn't have loot that says you've made progress

[arctic oar]

Terror zones at 90 and never look back

(not a joke)

[upper wedge]

I never understood what the point of playing an ARPG and then skipping the core gameplay loop (farming for gear) by playing trade league is

[hybrid onyx]

Atleast in LE you dont do 1000 meph runs and maybe have 1 item to show for it.

[arctic oar]

I don't know if I prefer troves to mephisto tbh

[charred ridge]

it's not skipping farm, it's accessing a higher tier of gear that you can "farm"

[arctic oar]

It's a close call

[hybrid onyx]

I never played d2r so I dont know about that

[charred ridge]

can you farm a 100% adorned on SSF?

you can on trade

people want to get the best gear possible and it's just not possible on SSF

[rigid wyvern]

so many people were confused as of why I was farming for worldsplitters instead of doing Uber, brother a 2 LP Worldsplitter sold for gold cap, while a 2 affix legendary worldsplitter with shitty mods was selling for a 3rd to a quarter of that

there were so many other things more financially viable than that

[arctic oar]

You should definitely try it. Sunder charms and terror zones are amazing

[rigid wyvern]

farming idols in tombs was also profitable

[charred ridge]

yeah i actually started on CoF and then made an MG alt to farm uber, then i got reality checked and went back to CoF the week after 😂

[rigid wyvern]

lmao

[hybrid onyx]

I do. D2 was good when I was a kid. And I still consider it one of the greatest games ever made. Le is not up there in giving the same feeling, but I prefer troves. I like LEs endgame tbh. But ofc, improvments can always be made! Kaizen

[charred ridge]

the fact that you also could farm gold on CoF with tradeable imprints

so silly

i was literally farming tradeable imprints on CoF, selling them on MG and then buying rerolls for my CoF

[vapid kindle]

ye but you don’t farm EVERYTHING from troves, you get your exalts from troves, your uniques from prophecies, your prims from regular echoes and your boss uniques from bosses. there’s incentives for multiple different things to farm depending on what you need most at a given time. just balance rampant coast spawn rate and gameplay actually becomes much more varied

[hybrid onyx]

Maybe i will. I hate leveling, and d2 is so slow in the begining. If there is a ladder, i cannot play non ladder, so theres that.

[arctic oar]

I'm gonna say it's still a 70/30. You need an exalt for all those items and some uniques are best farmed with imprints (low drop rate high lp) so it ends up still being the majority of what you do.

It's alternatives to troves I personally want but it's more likely they'll just butcher them and not replace them

[vapid kindle]

it’s still not perfect but it actually introduces different buckets because if the same method is the most efficient way to farm everything you’ve just made trove spam even more mandatory and worse

[vapid kindle]

having rift beasts spawn in troves makes there even less of an incentive to not spam troves all day though

[hybrid onyx]

The problem is that there is always something that is going to be the best.

I dont think you can get away from it.

[upper wedge]

I really wanted to like Zoomancer

[hybrid onyx]

Not in a loot based game.

[arctic oar]

I guess... But you have to agree that this shows they're not fully willing to mix match future mechanics which I'm not very happy about.

[vapid kindle]

sure but the gap is astronomically wider than it needs to be

[charred ridge]

that's fine just make it fun

i dont care that something is objectively better than other things if it's fun

[upper wedge]

When you remove what's meta, something else is meta 🤷‍♀️

[rigid wyvern]

something always being the best is not a big deal if it changes season to season

[arctic oar]

still, like noobzor said, it shouldn't be 20x better

[hybrid onyx]

Troves is the end end game, but u have to farm other things aswell. But at the end of the day the point is to farm.

[upper wedge]

I don't mind tier 0 builds existing

[vapid kindle]

i think we should have a mix of mechanics that can weave together and some that are separate, so you’re not spread too thin between different systems but there’s actual incentive to vary gameplay

[rigid wyvern]

I will say, I think there needs to be a pass on the rarity of specific monos vs others when you imprint them, and the balance of imprinting monos on your weaver tree vs just buying them by farming folly/coasts

[charred ridge]

even if it doesnt change from season to season, it's fine as long as it's fun and varied

[rigid wyvern]

but other than that I dont mind

[upper wedge]

Most of the "problematic" overperforming builds in ARPGs are completely fine and don't one shot bosses without trade league

[vapid kindle]

i think every other league mechanic so far has been able to be farmed from one thing so i think it’s a net positive when there’s one that’s not

[arctic oar]

Maybe my problem it's still too early for enough of those mechanics to exist so them not currently blending sticks out like a sore thumb. If it was like poe2 that basically robs every poe1 season and smacks them onto a tree, it would've been better because you have agency in what to spec

[vapid kindle]

not that every league mechanic should require a completely separate loop but it’s nice every once in a while

[arctic oar]

That's not to say poe2 endgame is solved obviously

Just using a point of reference

[upper wedge]

I enjoy LE endgame more than PoE2

[charred ridge]

one idea is they could buff the rewards of most woven echoes across the board, buff the proc rate of woven echoes across the board, add more imprint slots to the tree but also prevent you from imprinting the same echo multiple times (so you don't just imprint the best one 5 times)

that way you can target farm a few of the woven echoes that you want by just running through the web

and you randomly get some nice echoes to run with some choice of variety

[upper wedge]

Something about having an infinite Atlas just paralyses me

[rigid wyvern]

yeah I think double imprinting can go if they buff the rates

[arctic oar]

They could 10x the rewards, it would still pale compared to having a reliable flow of imprint procs. Unless you have more cases of sepulcher chest popping or weighted mobs that proc the mob imprint more often or something like that

[vapid kindle]

LE endgame is really good and varied just the balance is poo so the variety is killed by the fact that 99% of echoes are not worth doing

[charred ridge]

i mean i literally do not see the point of having more than 1 imprint slot it just doesnt make any sense

you just imprint the echo you want twice

[rigid wyvern]

the amount of people that says LE has no endgame but I ask them if they ever touched a woven echo they say no is staggering

making the system to get easier to get into is a priority imo

[charred ridge]

but yeah it's pretty bad that the game has almost 50 woven echoes and only a handful of them have meaningful rewards

[vapid kindle]

well we should probably balance imprints too while we’re at it so the cache one isn’t so staggeringly better than all the others

[rigid wyvern]

cough runemaster cough

well some of the woven echoes are just there for the points they provide every season

[arctic oar]

Might be unpopular but the mob one is crazy weak imo

[upper wedge]

what's the alternative though? Streamlining echoes?

[rigid wyvern]

thats fine

imo

but there should be more usable ones

like, the soulfire gambler one should be a fun and usable one

[vapid kindle]

no it is, and the echo reward one should honestly have the condition changed

[rigid wyvern]

its not turns out

[charred ridge]

ye but considering the endgame has glaring issues they could at least use what echoes they already have in the game to solve those issues

[rigid wyvern]

yeah I agree

they should use them more

[arctic oar]

Either that or multiple pops per completion (speccable most likely)

Id love that personally

[rigid wyvern]

they added the beast ones which all are kinda useful

[arctic oar]

Like spend 10 points get 3 end echo pops

[charred ridge]

i like the beast echoes because they're boss echoes that give useful loot regardless what your build is

why can't they do that with other bosses?

[rigid wyvern]

nesting grove is questionable but I think its based on what your current evolution is giving right?

or am I wrong?

[vapid kindle]

what if we swapped the conditions of the useless champion one and the echo reward one

[arctic oar]

You know what's funny I brought this up earlier this season, said champions are glaringly unrewarding compared to how strong and speccable they are

And I got called crazy

[charred ridge]

imagine if just for example, the draal queen boss was actually hard, but it gave good enough generic loot that no matter what your build is, you could imprint it and use it to progress your gear?

[arctic oar]

They don't even have a guarantee unique node 😭

[rigid wyvern]

Well I like the idea of having certain echoes like Rampant Coast being rare, but as rewarding as they are now. Having one really exciting woven echo every so often is way better than having a bunch of mediocre ones in a row

[vapid kindle]

and like, troves are fine for champions but there’s 100% better echoes for champion spam which would introduce variety there too

[upper wedge]

I wish there was a way to regain FP 🤷‍♀️

[arctic oar]

Ideally I'd love being able to place down a setup of different woven echoes that reward everything you need in combination

[upper wedge]

FP is my nemesis

[charred ridge]

the whole point of FP is that it's limited

[vapid kindle]

wait until you hear about the old system

[upper wedge]

tell me

[arctic oar]

I've suggested this a while ago as an endgame crafting station, probably behind an Uber boss. Add fp back to an item

[vapid kindle]

basically you used to have a random chance to “shatter” the item and you couldn’t craft on it anymore

[charred ridge]

woven echo drop rates would have to be heavily nerfed for that to be the case

[upper wedge]

that's disgusting

[vapid kindle]

yep

there was no fp just a random chance to be done

[arctic oar]

I mean the difference between that and right now is that we do the exact same with largely 1 type

[charred ridge]

yeah because you can afford it

one issue with LE is that supplies of everything are unlimited

[arctic oar]

Yeah that's why I was thinking "in combination". Some juicing others, some proccing things around them, some cheaper some more expensive, maybe put some of the rarer ones more often in the high endgame

Maybe we just need more of the AoE ones

poe sextants

I don't know

[vapid kindle]

havocs are the only actually rare crafting mat

[charred ridge]

i can imagine a scenario in which you'd put 6 echoes around a folly and they're all different and it's optimal but it just doesnt work with the current item balance

havocs are not rare

they are rare for 2 days

[vapid kindle]

relative to everything else they are

[charred ridge]

which is exactly how long EHG expects their target audience to play

so i guess it's rare

but if you actually play the game there are no rare currencies in the game

[arctic oar]

I guess balancing the level we play at is something that will never be the main focus because of how small the slice of that playerbase is

[vapid kindle]

ok maybe rare is like

the wrong word

but relative to my 15000 glyphs of hope on week 1 or whatever it’s like

[charred ridge]

but if there were rare currencies (like if havocs actually were rare, if there were no prophecies for runes of creation, maybe add some more stuff) then yeah i could see farming strats where different woven echoes can target farm 1 currency

[upper wedge]

I think that's a bit disingenuous though, because it assumes that someone is already at a high enough corruption level where they get that stuff frequently

[charred ridge]

like you put down a woven echo for your havocs, another for your creations, etc

[arctic oar]

The mirror item you suggested was one of my favorite suggestions I read

For 2lp

[charred ridge]

that could be a thing, but EHG is scared of adding scarcity to anything in the game

[arctic oar]

Doubt it'd ever happen

But hey

[upper wedge]

cough FP

[charred ridge]

yeah, Mike has already confirmed they don't want scarcity of items because and i quote "shitters will whine"

ok it's not a real quote

[upper wedge]

If they expected us to play shorter, wouldn't FP not be a thing?

[arctic oar]

pretty accurate quote ngl 😭

[vapid kindle]

i think FP is fine tbh

if FP didn’t exist crafting would be 100% deterministic

[upper wedge]

yep

[charred ridge]

actually i'll clarify because it's not exactly what Mike said, he said he would like to introduce more rare items but they have a hard time actually doing it without irritating a portion of the playerbase basically

[arctic oar]

Frozen suggested a mechanic where you get back either the unique or the purple after a slam

Well, a brick

Obviously priced accordingly

(I'd assume)

[charred ridge]

that's a new one to me, i imagine that it would take currency to do that otherwise it's obviously completely op

but ya i think that's actually a clever solution

[arctic oar]

It's a good solution priced the right way

But yeah

[charred ridge]

yeah i like it

you have this currency that takes like 8 hours of target farming some woven echo to actually get

so it's like actually rare and you have to work for it etc

but now you're not bricking your once in a lifetime 3lp red ring

[arctic oar]

One every couple of tens of hours of a safety net to keep protecting your rare 3lp until you roll the 33%

So that you move on to other gear for imprints

Not bad at all

[charred ridge]

like they desperately need to add currencies to the game that solve some of the endgame issues like temp sanctum RNG

you do 1 thing and it solves 2 issues: crafting and lack of endgame

[charred ridge]

honestly it wouldn't be 100% because removing exalted mods/sealing affixes both can permanently brick your item

but close enough

[arctic oar]

And it's actually balanced too because their rarity will reflect how often such a mechanic would need to be used

[vapid kindle]

i do kinda get what mike’s saying because this would clearly be targeted at people like myself, you and george and 99% of played would just cry about the rarity/difficulty to obtain

[upper wedge]

Exalted affixes always stay in their spot. For example, a 7x/x7 imprint will always drop 7x/x7 items. It will never drop things like 77/xx or x7/7x.
I didn't know that imprinting an exalted item with a t7 guarantees a t7 modifier. I thought it only increased the chance.

[arctic oar]

It's not like you're gonna split items every couple mins

I like the Poe one where you see the next craft before you make it

Good mechanic imo

[charred ridge]

it doesn't guarantee anything, see the table below with the odds

[vapid kindle]

for seals true but for everything else you could just havoc/redemption infinitely

[charred ridge]

what i meant is if an exalted gets rolled, it'll be on the same spot as the original

[vapid kindle]

there would basically be no reason to use removal ever

[charred ridge]

true

[charred ridge]

yeah but you dont f*cking need it is the thing

[upper wedge]

So if I imprint an exalt with a t7, I have a 0.14% chance to get any t7 on it?

[arctic oar]

Good luck convincing the casual player they don't need it. "EHG what's the point of adding mirror it never dropped for me"

waa waa waa

It'll be a show

[charred ridge]

im sorry but i actually dont care that people are so entitled to everything that they will cry if they don't want to spend the time to get something

[arctic oar]

they care sadly

[upper wedge]

The doc is frying my brain, I need it in unga bunga words

[vapid kindle]

yeah but casuals won’t understand that lmao

[vapid kindle]

unfortunately these people pay the bills

[charred ridge]

i dont want to demonize casual players but it really doesnt help when ppl tell me "yeah actually we cant implement nice things because it's 2025 and people are super entitled"

[vapid kindle]

i agree but sadly it keeps the lights on

[arctic oar]

Consider how suggestions go through. If all of us copy paste the exact same one in a row, it's a strong voice and it gets considered

Imagine what happens when general is under attack

Daily

[charred ridge]

like dr3adful said the other day on twitch, casual players pay the bills that allow the game to even get developed, sure, i get that

but as was already stated on that same day, there is such a thing as overcatering

[lost gale]

no, each T7 on the item has a 70% chance to be re-rolled, each re-roll has a 0.14% chance of being T7 (0.62% COF)

[charred ridge]

and if you have to refrain from improving your game because some people are entitled then you are overcatering

[lost gale]

so you have 0.3^number of T7 affixes for your imprint to have that many T7s on it when it procs

[upper wedge]

I don't get at which stage a CoF item is being rerolled

Sorry for being stupid

[charred ridge]

frozensentinel and binaQc both have a video on youtube covering the content of the doc, might find it easier to understand on there

[arctic oar]

My tinfoil hat speculation for the state of s3 was exactly this. The acquisition thing's flak probably caused a lot of minefield tiptoeing in terms of development decisions (CT and time constraints aside)

[upper wedge]

Question: When I havoc an item with, for example, t3-4-5-7, am I guaranteed a t3-4-5-7 result, or random?

[lost gale]

when your imprint procs, it generates a new item which is similar to the imprinted item, for each T7 suffix on that imprinted item the new item has a 30% chance to also have a T7 suffix and a 70% chance for that suffix to be re-rolled into a different tier, when it gets re-rolled that suffix has a 0.14% chance of becoming T7 again

[upper wedge]

Do you have a link?

[charred ridge]

each affix will independently roll a chance to keep its affix tier (50% for t1-5, 30% for t7). if NOT, then the affix instead gets rerolled to a random tier, according to the values on the right of the table

[upper wedge]

So i could havoc an exalt with one t7 and end up with multiple?

[lost gale]

it doesn't preserve the particular T7 affix though FYI, or at least the chance for it to do so is very very low

so something with T7 useless suffix is just as good as something with T7 hybrid health as an imprint

[charred ridge]

i don't think it has anything to do with krafton. EHG has always been very open about targeting a more casual audience

i quote: "we don't expect players to hit level 100"

this is my favorite EHG quote ever

because it singlehandedly explains everything about the current endgame

[vapid kindle]

the problem is that the specific suggestion you have would be considered a QoL feature by many and casual players would view it as QoL that is inaccessible to non-sweaty players. slamming anything above 1LP feels worse the less you play the game

[upper wedge]

I think a video in unga bunga trms would really help me understand the contents of this doc lol

[arctic oar]

I refuse to believe that expectation hasn't changed from their part. No way they're oblivious to the powercreep they have added

[charred ridge]

https://youtu.be/b1rK6AX8eUA i think bina has the most unga bunga explanation

[lost gale]

no, it will always be 3-4-5-7 in some order per your example but not all the affixes have to move. If you made that item 5-5-5-7 before using the havoc then the T7 would have to move because otherwise the item hasn't changed.
If your item is 3-4-5-7 then it could become 4-3-5-7 or 3-5-4-7 without moving the T7

[charred ridge]

it's also the longest one

but ya

[charred ridge]

no im pretty sure they stand by their standard

i think the "300 corruption is a successful build" thing still stands too

[upper wedge]

Thanks everyone

[arctic oar]

this is mind boggling

[vapid kindle]

no wonder they think the game is balanced

[charred ridge]

i mean i saw a lich build "guide" on youtube the other day that really made me chuckle

[lost gale]

there's no way they actually think this

[charred ridge]

im so sorry because i dont want to seem condescending towards the more casual playerbase and all but

[vapid kindle]

guys every skill in the game can make a successful build! we’ve done it! the game is balanced!

[lost gale]

tri-element spell damage tempest strike 300c actually sounds kinda challenging

idk how you'd sustain mana

[charred ridge]

i was looking at somebody running some AoD poison build, equipping double siphon of anguish for "much needed ele res, as well as void penetration with doom (this is a dot build guys)" and also "bleeding heart for leech, which is better than nihilis" (yes, on the mastery that gets a free 6% leech just for existing)

[arctic oar]

mike's s2 heartseeker vs necro right now (he's been playing for 2 weeks and the minions are already critting for 20k, didn't reach such numbers the entirety of season 2)

[charred ridge]

and my immediate thought was "this is EHG's target audience"

[arctic oar]

but when I call heartseeker a trash skill I get hate

[vapid kindle]

probably swipe but god almighty playing generator spender with TS as the SPENDER is gonna keep me up tonight, thanks

[lost gale]

oof

think I'd rather do melee gathering storm

[charred ridge]

if you toss good gear on something it's pretty hard to not be 300c viable ngl

[arctic oar]

gathering storm is definitely a skill in last epoch

I promise

[charred ridge]

even with the worst skill in the game you have to make some intentionally bad itemization choices to not be 300c viable

[vapid kindle]

storm bolts are pog but gathering storm blows lmfao

er, storm bolts are pog when it’s tornado or storm totem using them

[arctic oar]

there's always flurry if you wanna do worse

[lost gale]

yeah but tempest strike attacks so fast and costs so much mana if you try to actually use the tempests that you have to solve mana in a big way before you can even put your good gear to use

[vapid kindle]

all the while doing zdps

[charred ridge]

ill be honest i have never rolled a primalist

[vapid kindle]

flurry is not even in the same stratosphere as tempest strike main damage in terms of being bad

[upper wedge]

I rolled one yesterday, the first 15 levels made me want to jump out of my window

[lost gale]

you might actually do more dps with the builder swipe than the spender tempest strike even geared for spell damage

[vapid kindle]

probably true

it is a cool looking and fun skill to use though

[arctic oar]

I genuinely didn't know it was that trash, for real?

wow

[vapid kindle]

and boy howdy does it give my storm crows a lot of flat

[lost gale]

it's a melee attack which attacks at the same speed as Rive but costs 16 mana by default and procs three truly abysmal spells

[arctic oar]

...

smiley face

[lost gale]

you can also turn it into a really bad totem

[vapid kindle]

it’s like the same damage as season 2 harvest but costs 16 mana

[lost gale]

correction: three really bad totems

the phys spell totem can proc tornado I guess, if that's something you want to do

[upper wedge]

I just realised that PoE, PoE2 and LE have the identical endgame premise

[vapid kindle]

there are like 10 other ways to proc tornado and they’re all better

[charred ridge]

mike's also said skills need to perform on different levels so you can feel the improvement when you find a better build for example and it's true

i mean it's kinda fine that some skills are bad

[lost gale]

this way has a 30% chance to work and costs you extra mana though so who can say which one is best

[charred ridge]

ideally you just have a good enough variety of high damage skills and you can give some utility to the lower dmg ones

[vapid kindle]

i also think it’s cool if some skills are “leveling skills” but not necessarily super strong in endgame

[charred ridge]

yeah

that too

[vapid kindle]

fireball lowkey pretty good alt leveling skill

[charred ridge]

i think the best way to redeem bad dmg output skills is to give them utility

which is kind of lacking in general in LE

[lost gale]

tbf gladiator of lagon is pretty great

[charred ridge]

for a game with literally a different tree for each skill

[vapid kindle]

192 flat damage for my storm crows is pretty nice

but ye some skills could use more utility instead of just cranking their numbers

also can we just delete rebuke and snap freeze

[charred ridge]

i think they're fine

i never felt the need to use either

it's fine that they're an option if you choose to

[vapid kindle]

i think like

[charred ridge]

you can also bulk death seal together with them

[hollow flint]

its kinda funny that you guys ask for more utility and then dismiss two utility skills 😄

[charred ridge]

while you're at it

[vapid kindle]

they’re super unfun skills that are only used if you wanna do super cringe shit to push arena leaderboards

[arctic oar]

last time I saw someone cook with rebuke must've been pre 1.0

yes and arenas too

[vapid kindle]

because rebuke is literally used to do the most disgusting unethical stuff and that’s it

[charred ridge]

nah people use rebuke unspec'ed to facetank uber's triple slam and whatnot

[lost gale]

I don't disagree, but imo that should be done by frontloading multipliers on the trees of mechanically weak skills (single hit, poor AOE, low range, bad animation or whatever) so that with shit gear and no build new players can look at the big multipliers and go wow, I'm getting a lot of damage from this trade-off and then later realise that the though the numbers looked good there were less obvious reasons the skill doesn't scale.

[vapid kindle]

and it promotes super unhealthy and unfun gameplay

[vapid kindle]

and unspecced for this true

[charred ridge]

i just dodge the triple slam like idk never needed rebuke to not die to a slam

snap freeze to prevent big slam on uber also pretty overrated imo

[arctic oar]

I can't judge this too hard because I'm a silver shroud enjoyer

🤐

[vapid kindle]

but like optimizing a build around specced rebuke is potentially the grossest thing you can do

[charred ridge]

i think it's actively bad to anim cancel big slam cause you just lose a free dmg window

ah i know nothing about spec'ed rebuke

[vapid kindle]

you should see the 1.3 arena leaderboards it’s more of a joke than ever before and that’s saying something

[arctic oar]

worse than snapshot hell?

[vapid kindle]

dude WAY worse

[arctic oar]

jesus...

[charred ridge]

yeah maybe

[vapid kindle]

people are doing zdps reflect with rebuke as their main thing

[arctic oar]

oh riiiight

that atrocity is a thing

of course

[vapid kindle]

you just rebuke and then vengeance for 2 seconds when rebuke is on cd

and then go back to rebuking

[charred ridge]

i dont know too much about the game as a whole i just know a lot about the builds i do know about

[vapid kindle]

i’m surprised you’ve literally never rolled a primalist tbh

[charred ridge]

what you're saying makes a lot of sense i just can't tell how different it is from the current game state

[lost gale]

that's kinda bad but is it really worse than a zhp shaman standing in the corner hoping the wall of tornadoes off-screens everything?

arena builds are always gimmicky trash

[charred ridge]

shouldnt be surprising when it has the most minions in the game

[vapid kindle]

at least you’re actively doing something

[arctic oar]

if you exclude reflect, has there ever been a zoomy fast primalist mapper

[charred ridge]

the only reason i'd want to roll a primalist would be for that 300% movement speed maelstrom thing

[vapid kindle]

non minion primalists are pretty sick though

[charred ridge]

yeah bina had what i just said above

but idk how good it actually is

it's probably fine

[lost gale]

werebear rampage is zoomy-ish?

[charred ridge]

im not really opposed to primalist i just never had a reason to make one

[vapid kindle]

if you have good damage on your storm bolts you can just rampage everywhere and they kill everything below a champion

[charred ridge]

looks like all the good builds since 1.2 have been using minions

[arctic oar]

I guess rogue has ruined a lot of things for me

can't enjoy slower builds anymore

[lost gale]

well beastmaster got all the attention in the patch and aspects are pretty insane

[vapid kindle]

werebear is one of the highest dps builds and doesn’t use minions

well it does but in the same way flay uses minions

[charred ridge]

i mean as soon as we had information about 1.3 being heavily pet focused (for both primalist & acolyte) i was pretty much just assuming the season was going to be a huge disappointment

[vapid kindle]

no minion beastmaster is pretty giga tbh

aspect stacking is just so fun

[charred ridge]

fastest builds i've ran were non-rogue

[lost gale]

I know in 1.2 someone was playing melee EQ BM and they had balanced mana/recovery well enough that they didn't have to do builder/spender just slam EQ all the time

they said it annihilated 1kc, tanky as hell etc

[charred ridge]

gonna have to wait for the rogue buffs so we can really be fast tbh

[vapid kindle]

i’m really liking LL swipe with aftershocks

[lost gale]

the 27m werebear swipe uberroth was the highlight of 1.2 for me

gigachad shit

[arctic oar]

I'm not saying nothing exists outside of rogue, and I do admit to a falconer bias

[vapid kindle]

lizard smelters wrath is the most giga bc it’s smelters wrath

[charred ridge]

what on falconer?

i'll be very honest but divebomb felt terrible for mapping in 1.2

[lost gale]

actually, tell a lie, Misha's infernal shades necro was actually the coolest build I saw in 1.2

[arctic oar]

umbrals have pretty crazy clear with velocyn solving movement speed

no divebomb is trash

[vapid kindle]

ballista is probably the fastest tbh

[arctic oar]

just dusk shroud fodder

[vapid kindle]

on rogue even still

[arctic oar]

ballista is very fast yeah

but I feel comfortable with umbrals

[charred ridge]

i tend to forget about ballistas since they're minions

[vapid kindle]

ye i figured

[charred ridge]

umbral blades are cool but i havent played them since 1.0

so im not in touch with the current powercreep

[arctic oar]

if you exclude s2's 10 second kills

right now my pb is 1:30 and the fastest we've hit is a 56 on a 2lp nihi/sw setup

so I guess "balanced"?

kinda

[charred ridge]

ya it's too balanced for me

which is fine if the mapping is worth it

but i'll be honest i think it's pretty hard to do better than flay lich rn

[vapid kindle]

cascade is pretty zoomy too once you can get a hang of the movement

[charred ridge]

gonna have to wait for it to be nerfed

ya but cascade is also too balanced

[vapid kindle]

i mean ye zero cd blink like

[arctic oar]

s2 umbrals were pretty close to current flay

I've got a 156mill crit clocked

obviously not serpent venom damage cap tier

[charred ridge]

i mean yeah in terms of uber dmg they were one shotting

[arctic oar]

but that's another story

[charred ridge]

i've always thought it's super weird that umbral blades were one shotting anyway

like why is shift recall 1 damage number

you're recalling like 40 different umbral blades you should be getting 40 damage numbers

[arctic oar]

same with blade explosions

they pop at the same time

1 number

[charred ridge]

yeah idk if it's a bug or intentional

but it's very unintuitive

[vapid kindle]

the explosion functionality with razorfall and bladestorms is so weird too

[arctic oar]

it doesn't help that juse en-noobified every falconer tourist under the sun with ahk "tech"

[charred ridge]

i mean at least if explosions pop at the same time i guess at least they hit on the same frame

[arctic oar]

it bypasses the "1 bladestorm per target" lol

LE jank

[charred ridge]

but i mean, when you recall the blades, there's an animation

visually they don't hit at the same time

but internally they do

it's jank

[arctic oar]

probably function on a tick yeah

definitely jank

I guess shift is the point of reference

[charred ridge]

yeah

[charred ridge]

i mean divebomb canceling had been a problem since 1.0

[vapid kindle]

have yall seen detonating arrow oneshot uber

[charred ridge]

i've seen it ye

i think it's still live

just nobody doing it

[vapid kindle]

it is

because it sucks to play

[arctic oar]

well... problem is an understatement. 220 dusk shroud stacks = 3200% more, 2600% increased (from ornate idols)

very balanced

[charred ridge]

i think it's pretty amazing that 99% of ppl ahking falconer didn't even know why it worked

[arctic oar]

I blame juse for everything

[charred ridge]

or how it worked

[arctic oar]

(jokingly)

[arctic oar]

I think this is dead now with the idol nerfs unless t8 makes up for it?

Can you even reach enough mana

[vapid kindle]

ye you can

t8% mana ba is 60% right?

[arctic oar]

It was originally trikster's idea and someone just replicated it offline and popularized it

[charred ridge]

i think that's fine

[arctic oar]

pretty sure you've seen the s2 falconer hate 😭

[charred ridge]

they overnerfed falconer

all they had to do was change the divebomb anim cancel which they did do

they didn't have to do more

[arctic oar]

I enjoy the sub 1min potential of something that's ranked b tier on maxroll

underdog energy

I can vibe with it

[charred ridge]

that was like 90%+ of falconer's damage

[vapid kindle]

i think the only part that’s annoying is what they did to the mana sustain nodes

[arctic oar]

the more nerf on umbrals was uncalled for, since it affects bd

[charred ridge]

the way they nerfed umbral blades is just idiotic

they do this with everything

[arctic oar]

CT's doing probably

yes

eeexactly

kill one thing and everything around it

[vapid kindle]

nerfing builds by nerfing mana sustain will never not be annoying af

[arctic oar]

I main falconer and I find void well nerf obnoxious

so I agree

[vapid kindle]

with t8 you don’t notice it at all tbh

[charred ridge]

thats just warpath

VK isn't just warpath

[vapid kindle]

on ES too

[arctic oar]

reliance on a t8 is the bane of my existence

I hate it

[charred ridge]

i mean what do you T8 on ES

[vapid kindle]

mana on leonine

[charred ridge]

i kinda doubt that's optimal

i mean you can make it feel the same as it was

[vapid kindle]

what other options are there really

[arctic oar]

I have heavy doubts 2 points in the echo node is sustainable anymore

maybe with no attack speed

not because of just void well

but the idol nerf

[vapid kindle]

most of the time you do 1 point time loop with more AS now

[charred ridge]

at the very least you can achieve higher dps output using harmony of the first (yes it's a meme bossing build)

[arctic oar]

that was my impression as well

[charred ridge]

but im pretty sure there's other options than t8 mana

[vapid kindle]

well ye but that’s annoying to farm for and not fun for mapping

[arctic oar]

does ES even slam anything else, like all you slam is mana, multi and maybe 1 slot of attack speed since vise has some built in

void goes on WS so no t8

[charred ridge]

i think these options are super fried

[vapid kindle]

not at 1lp

[charred ridge]

time loop is AS

if you run AS instead of time loop you are trolling

[vapid kindle]

well yes but it costs double the mana

[charred ridge]

doesn't matter

[arctic oar]

I remember 2 points at around 2300 mana and AS slam on vise was 100% uptime

but 2300 mana s2 was pushing it even for s2

let alone now

[charred ridge]

this is all i can find from my past math on 1/3 vs 2/3 time loop

but long story short running aspd with lower time loop is just straight copium

[vapid kindle]

with void well cd nerfed and mana idols nerfed 3 points time loop is unsustainable even on aspirational and even 2 is difficult to sustain

[arctic oar]

That's why I'm asking how would you maintain it s3

I really don't see how

[charred ridge]

mana efficiency with 1/3 TL instead of 2/3 is literally just like 16% better

it's not worth the opportunity cost of slamming aspd instead of real stats that'll give you more than 16% dmg per hit

[arctic oar]

what's the alternative slam on 2lp gloves for more damage

[charred ridge]

oh you do run melee aspd on gloves

you dont really have options

aspd is still fine as a stat if it's like the best thing you can get for an affix slot

[arctic oar]

okay that's what I was wondering

[charred ridge]

just dont go around running aspd on weapon

[arctic oar]

oh wow no never loool

[charred ridge]

ppl are doing that you know

[arctic oar]

I didn't realize someone was considering that

oh lord

[charred ridge]

no it's very very popular

actually probably the best thing is to run shred on gloves and crit multi on amulet

i was running aspd on gloves and shred on amulet (or idol) but it's probably not best

[arctic oar]

ES is pretty shred hungry with no good shred slam true

[charred ridge]

mostly cus i dont really see 2lp nihilis as a realistic thing anyway

[arctic oar]

If only evo had mana%

[vapid kindle]

ye i didn’t mean slam as on weapon

[arctic oar]

copium

[charred ridge]

but i mean

like i cba to theorycraft ES again

but im p-sure WS is trolling first of all

[arctic oar]

I don't care about squeezing every dps point I was just curious because I was looking at the notes on launch and the first thing that came to mind is alright rip 2/3 sustain wth void well nerf

Which again is on brand

nerf 1 thing nerf everything around it

[charred ridge]

you can go full meme with either event horizon or harmony of the first which i'll give it to you is completely meme

or just run shadow beacon

which is actually just good

pre-WS nerf it was better and after the nerfs i can only imagine that it's not even a contest

aside from the WS aoe

[vapid kindle]

do you need a crit slam on beacon?

[charred ridge]

not on the weapon itself no

[arctic oar]

how common is 3lp beacon lemme google

[charred ridge]

i forgot where i'd get my crit from

you can get 4lp beacon

[vapid kindle]

not rare

[charred ridge]

but i'm talking 3lp beacon vs 2lp WS

[arctic oar]

damnnnnnn 35 lpl

what the hell

[charred ridge]

775 beacon was the same dmg as 77 WS pre-nerf

[arctic oar]

hello traitor

[charred ridge]

but 777 beacon was much better

if you have like a 7775 beacon with shred

it's not even close

but i figure 4lp beacon would be hard to roll

[arctic oar]

1/15k is a little too much for me

[vapid kindle]

ye

[charred ridge]

ye i dont consider 4lp beacon realistic

but that being said

there were like 5 on MG when i checked

[vapid kindle]

it’s like

[charred ridge]

cus u know

ppl don't know it's good

[vapid kindle]

not like it doesn’t exist

but you don’t go out looking for one on CoF

[charred ridge]

nah not CoF

[arctic oar]

I do believe you can pull some sick items people randomly list up like that which is not possible on cof

[charred ridge]

just on MG while it's underrated

[arctic oar]

yeah as long as something is a sleeper pick

mg is the play

[vapid kindle]

i hear market was dead as a doorknob by 1 week this season

[charred ridge]

the thing is ES just has that extra 60% multiplier for 2H maces

and beacon gives you that +2 to void skills

[vapid kindle]

true

i forgot about that node

[arctic oar]

apparently there's this giga grinder that lists 2lp SW in batches

[charred ridge]

so with +1 LP to run void pen on top it's just better than WS

[arctic oar]

if I didn't know kuden plays cof

I'd be suspicious

[charred ridge]

lmao

[vapid kindle]

what prim do you run if not t8 mana though

and not harmony memes

[vapid kindle]

i think kuden plays legacy tho tbf

[charred ridge]

i mean first of all t8 on helmet when you can run the exact same t8 on body armor is troll

sure there is titan heart

i dont really care

[arctic oar]

true, not that that matters too much 2 weeks into the season

frozen was decked out in 2lps in what a week

[charred ridge]

if uber has enough time to hit me it's not a build that i play

[obtuse fossil]

don't mean to interrupt, but does anyone know the coefficient on the Anguish Curse?

[arctic oar]

shocked you didn't try s2 falconer

[obtuse fossil]

(or where I could find it)

[charred ridge]

did you check LEtools?

[arctic oar]

it was definitely a build

[vapid kindle]

you mean t8 es?

[charred ridge]

i did have a falconer

[charred ridge]

no i mean t8 mana but ye t8 ES is a consideration as well

[obtuse fossil]

I didn't see it in LEtools, but I might not be looking in the right place

[vapid kindle]

trust me trying to 1/2 a t8 will make you hate yourself

[charred ridge]

i mean same with helmet

[arctic oar]

This is the only thing that stopped me from rolling a sentinel this season. Alternatives or not, leonine good rolled + t8 is where I draw the line

I'd rather keep my mental sanity

[charred ridge]

https://www.lastepochtools.com/ailments/anguish

[vapid kindle]

you kinda settle for t8t6 if you want to stay sane

[obtuse fossil]

I don't see the coefficient there...do I need ot turn on a setting for the page or something?

[arctic oar]

I'm fine with rune of evo a double t7 I don't mind the 50/50. But when hitting the right base comes into play

is when I dip

they better fix envy or whatever

[charred ridge]

wdym by coefficient

added dmg efficiency?

[obtuse fossil]

the % of added damage it benefits from

[charred ridge]

im kinda just assuming it's 100%

but ye it doesn't show

could be wrong

[vapid kindle]

and having to glyph of order to preserve your roll, and craft up a t5 afterward, etc

[arctic oar]

I can tolerate filling the slot with a t5 if the right base wasn't part of the equation

(also if you want a regular seal slot haha ha ha ha good luck)

[obtuse fossil]

I remember seeing people link a more detailed version of skills (has sections like 'is a hit') but I can't remember how to get to those, I figure that's where I might find the answer

[vapid kindle]

like it is literally like a hundred times more painful than trying to hit 1/3 on a 7/7, if not more

[arctic oar]

a hundred seems like a generous guesstimate lol

I 100% agree

The only remotely viable play is despair a t1 set

[charred ridge]

ya i dont know the answer to your question but check tunklabs i guess

[arctic oar]

LB particularly

[charred ridge]

if you haven't

[obtuse fossil]

will do

[charred ridge]

also i think i largely made my crit back from anomaly since with WS i was i think only running 2/5 anomaly crit or smth

[vapid kindle]

2LP mask of indifference with 7/7 mana would not be terrible probs

[arctic oar]

max crit on ES/anomaly, shattered world and maybe a crit slam on ring fixes crit I think

maybe crit blessing? probably too much

That said I don't hate the idea of crit/flat void/shred slam on beacon

[charred ridge]

u really dont need crit on beacon

[vapid kindle]

reliquary is potentially an angle if you can cap crit without SW

[charred ridge]

ye i was thinking reliquary too but prob not

[arctic oar]

probably pushing it

maybe not, napkin math isn't my favorite

but prooobably not

[charred ridge]

i mean you have crit on symbols crit on anomaly base crit on SW and ES

crit blessing if needed

idk it's almost 2026 you have a million ways to cap crit

[arctic oar]

I was thinking this or ring fixes it

both at worst

[vapid kindle]

and you get vk base crit

[charred ridge]

it's legit so funny

2/5 anomaly

capped crit

[vapid kindle]

so maybe reliquary is an angle?

[charred ridge]

i alwasy found it so funny when ppl kept saying if WS isn't 0.5% crit roll it's dead

crit most important roll

literally the least important roll of the item

[arctic oar]

how much mana do you get from reliquary

theoretical

it must be a lot

[vapid kindle]

because people really mald about calculating crit for some reason

[charred ridge]

wait nvm there was 170% in the upgrade field so ye that was 5/5 anomaly and crit blessing

you do have to find some more crit without SW

[vapid kindle]

it’s like the easiest thing to math out but casuals need the guide to solve their crit for them

[charred ridge]

but idk honestly mana idols weren't even bis in 1.2

[arctic oar]

just a thought experiment

so you can get 12 minor ones if you keep the 2 ornates

[charred ridge]

no i mean 12 minor idols weren't BiS in 1.2

humble idols were BiS

mana was grossly overrated

and i get it because it feels terrible to be oom

i also invested a lot into mana cause i want my character to feel good when i play it

but mathematically it was never the best option

[vapid kindle]

ye bc es doesn’t scale damage off mana in the way flay or warpath do

[arctic oar]

I would almost certainly just stack it for qol if nothing else post nerf

[vapid kindle]

if you have enough mana to sustain time loop there’s no reason to build more really

[charred ridge]

if you need it in maps

technically it's more QoL to have less mana when you boss

if you have a lot of mana it means there is pressure to be dumping your mana to get the highest dps uptime

[vapid kindle]

the pen prefix flat + increased suffix humbles are so gross

[arctic oar]

that's what I was thinking right now. maybe boosting pen with nest

[charred ridge]

quite literally if you don't have mana issues you are lacking damage

[vapid kindle]

ik pen on idols caught a very small nerf but they’re still so good

[charred ridge]

people are acting like it's a good thing to have enough mana that you're not running out anymore

it feels great but it's bad for your dps

[arctic oar]

maybe humbles are still the best

[charred ridge]

can math it

[arctic oar]

mostly curious how strong nest would be after you solve crit

as a choice of prim

[charred ridge]

it depends on the rest of your setup

probably not that strong

[arctic oar]

it has a pretty decent chance for 2lp which adds to that value though

[vapid kindle]

there’s not that many other prims that immediately come to mind as fantastic tbh

[arctic oar]

and good unique affixes

yeah

[charred ridge]

i think rolling a 2lp nest is pretty despairge tho on lich

but sent doesnt care as much about all the endurance stuff

so it's prob fine

[vapid kindle]

ye the threshold is more of a nice to have than a must have on vk

[arctic oar]

I really like the threshold

maybe fanboying too much

[charred ridge]

i mean it just kinda depends what you wanna theorycraft for

if it's max dps output i dont look at any defensive stuff anyway

if it's maps then t8 helmet is probably pretty fine lol

[arctic oar]

I wouldn't mind adding 10seconds to uber to feel near immortal in 1k so I can turn my brain off

decent tradeoff in my book

[charred ridge]

most of my builds change a couple items between uber and maps

that's despite my allergy to item swapping

LE just has some imbalance issues

when changing your rings literally doubles your damage

[arctic oar]

What I don't like about nest is the low health roll. It's trying to do the nihilis thing where there's a little bit of everything (minus the +skills because of the idol effect) but 40 health on a prim

just take that stun avoidance away

[vapid kindle]

preposterous

this game is so balanced

[charred ridge]

i mean idk if you run the mana idols those also give like 18? health each

which means nest is a tremendous amount of hp for those setups

it's pretty absurd how much hp i lose when i unequip nest on my lich

[arctic oar]

Idk the more I look at humbles

you know

lots of flat

lol

[charred ridge]

ya

u can also run vitality prefix

especially now that pen has been nerfed

[vapid kindle]

oh true

[charred ridge]

it's almost certainly still less damage than pen but u do get hp

https://www.lastepochtools.com/profile/Noobzor/character/Eraser0

[arctic oar]

depends, how much is the pen roll now

2%?

[vapid kindle]

and vk mastery means you’re still getting some damage

[charred ridge]

4%

thats my 1.2 ES VK

[arctic oar]

oh you mean humbles

[charred ridge]

by the time i changed the idols i was already mostly playing timerot

so some of them had vitality instead of pen

[arctic oar]

does this not get autoupdated or

why's the roll 6

LE tools meme moment?

[charred ridge]

because the character is still in 1.2

you can migrate to 1.3 with a button on the left

[arctic oar]

Genuinely never done that, wow

how many braincells did you fry to roll those ornates

I can feel the pain

[wet sky]

im leveling a golem retaliation build just wondering would anyone give me some idea when gear would be optimal for this, im using cast speed sceptre atm with t-rex relic , 2 minion lvele ring s and that plus skills amulet, any help would be appreciated plz

[charred ridge]

i think i got them pretty fast but i wanted another t7 movement speed and i couldn't get it

well i had one but it was on a shred base

[arctic oar]

I've only hit a singular t7 movement speed ever

[charred ridge]

you should ask me how many braincells i fried for the SW

[arctic oar]

I made two of those, uber loot isn't a problem

I had 600 eyes

[charred ridge]

ya but did they have perfect rolls

[lost gale]

I don't know if it'll be better for sure but the penance on bone curse amulet (fire pearls of the swine) is probably better than evolution's end for golem retal

[arctic oar]

yeah 16 dex 32 throw

[charred ridge]

on the explicits

[arctic oar]

wait you rolled a 5%/10

I see

[charred ridge]

5/10/100

not just 5/10

[arctic oar]

oh right frenzy, sorry falconer brain

ok yeah now I see

[charred ridge]

i never actually used that relic

[wet sky]

ok cheers, should i go with the wraithlord helmet and julra gloves for more min spell damage?

[charred ridge]

i ran maybe 3 maps with it

[arctic oar]

should've clocked a good uber for the flex

[charred ridge]

yeah i think i did

i did like some meme 50s ubers with event horizon

i never scaled ES down to a 40s uber

i don't think i've seen a 40s uber with ES even?

seemed like most ppl capped out between 50s and 1min

[arctic oar]

I'm pretty sure it was possible because the best ES kills I've seen had wonky movement

people lose time on execution

[wet sky]

maybe julra gloves and wraithlord helmet or generic spell damage helmet?

[charred ridge]

i mean it is absolutely possible

i don't think it's execution you just need some specific gear

[arctic oar]

I've seen some great sub 1s and they all wasted very obvious seconds on bad ball handling

[charred ridge]

WS maybe couldnt do it

i never slammed a 77 stardial for ES

[lost gale]

I'm not actually sure tbh, adaptive flat should be very good with the bone curse phys buff but I've never seen a full build for golem retal. I know penance can trigger it though, there was a build last season which got penance nerfed/bugfixed because of that

[charred ridge]

but that probably solves it quite easily

[wet sky]

ok cheers

[charred ridge]

well maybe not that easily cause strenght isnt amazing but it's still better than flames of mid

[arctic oar]

the math does check out

cleave on invuln

and blast

you have it for every phase

12*4=48

[charred ridge]

it's more like 12*3 = 36

[arctic oar]

...yeah true

[charred ridge]

you proc at 0s, 12s, 24s, 36s

and stardial window lasts 4 seconds so you kill 4 seconds after the 36s mark

kinda

[arctic oar]

yeah the last one ends before it begins

well, halfway

you don't reach a 4th

non counting 0s

yeah

pretty cool tech that actually requires a brain

flask does that

dual julra melts uber

[charred ridge]

ya

every build does that

#🔱┃sentinel message

this was one of my event horizon kills

[arctic oar]

yeah I was trying to fit the phases with ES' speed in my brain

checking

[charred ridge]

but at that point into the season i kinda cba to get more gear for it

that's actually what 45s?

43 seconds

[arctic oar]

I wish ES had the oomph to skip first phase, but 6mill crits isn't even close. if you could skip at least one phase the kill speed would skyrocket

[charred ridge]

you mean 2nd phase?

like go from 64 to 36?

[arctic oar]

yes I mean the invuln after the slam on 64 mb

[charred ridge]

ya

im surprised that event horizon kill got 43s without skipping the 50% phase

[arctic oar]

that's where a kill caps with no skipping, it's what LB currently does (almost, a bit slower)

jank has to happen for faster

bear says hi

[charred ridge]

ye

it's 40s if you kill without skips and 50s if you have to deal with the 50% phase

thats why im surprised event horizon was 43s

i guess cause i stunned it out of the first slam

or something idk

bear stuns it out of transitions

that's why it's faster

[arctic oar]

I saw that, that was definitely a big time gain

yes bear treads jank territory

combined with casual 9 digit crits

[charred ridge]

i think stun chance could be meta

for speedrunning it

on some builds

just skip last phase

[arctic oar]

I agree it's very unexplored. Even builds with less dps could gain a lot out of skipping some invuln

[charred ridge]

ya it's mostly just the last phase cause you can't stun your way out of harbingers

[arctic oar]

But it would have to be a build with big crits, rapid fire builds like LB could probably never do it

[charred ridge]

but even 1 phase skip is still nice

ya

ES can do it

it's prob kinda aids for most builds tho cause you're probably subject to RNG

unless you have so much stun chance and dmg that u can guarantee stunlock

[arctic oar]

Before I stopped for s3 (no 2lp SW this season) umbrals crits for around 5mill with no sweaty gear, and the best stun tech is divebomb which means sacrificing even more stats, so I don't think there's plenty hope there

maybe s3 minions

abom?

[charred ridge]

ya idk i dont do minions

im mostly done with LE until 1.4

i could theorycraft ES for fun rq but i cba still

in 1.4 i'll think about stun chance for whatever i play

[arctic oar]

I stopped as well, I clocked around 11k echoes in s2 and s3 combined, my brain is completely fried

I'm no kuden but I hit my limit

[charred ridge]

i was done with S3 pretty fast

only ran 1 character

[arctic oar]

all the doom preaching on general aside, I want to believe 1.4 won't flop

I know I'll miss blasting by december

[charred ridge]

im dooming but i'll be happy to be proven wrong

[arctic oar]

holding myself back because it's too easy to doom and it'll just ruin my mood more

maybe copium but eh

[charred ridge]

it's ok my mood doesn't have to revolve around LE

worst case scenario i heard poe2 is good now

[arctic oar]

soft spots are hard to be objective about, I'd feel different if I didn't own the game since pre multiplayer

it is what it is

[charred ridge]

i mean LE is my favorite arpg

it's just that i'm clearly not the target audience and EHG doesn't care about me

so it is what it is

[arctic oar]

genuinely can't even argue against that take because there's nothing solid to object it

[charred ridge]

they've stated a ton of times that they don't see the issues i have as issues

[arctic oar]

best one I've got is mike's "this game is like my child and i'll work my ass off on it"

but still

[charred ridge]

i mean i'm sure that some amount of content will be made for me later down the line

but it's not 1.4

[arctic oar]

probably too soon a release to be hoping for big leaps then

[charred ridge]

they've already said their next goal is to bridge the gap between aberroth and uber

[arctic oar]

which means stuck bullying uber in ever more ways...

yeah

[charred ridge]

uber is already too easy for me so whatever is below that isn't going to be exciting content

[arctic oar]

bleh

[charred ridge]

unless they nerf just about every build in the game

to where uber is actually hard

which is something they could do

[arctic oar]

first kill was with half 1lps half purples, 4min kill

[charred ridge]

but i doubt they'll succeed

[arctic oar]

now it can be argued they wanna make it a WoW raidboss

and push kill times to 10mins

but I doubt it

so even if it goes down to 4mins being the standard

it's still not hard enough

so waiting room it is

[charred ridge]

i mean it makes no sense to try to make uber harder anyway like

it's been out for 6 months or whatever

we know the mechs

[arctic oar]

"waa waa more effort for same loot"

never gonna happen

sounds like a waiting room

[charred ridge]

it was mechanically hard 6 months ago but not anymore

but like they dont really have to add content above uber

they just have to address the trove farm

we'll see if they manage to do it properly

[arctic oar]

maybe that'll be reason enough to bother with 1.4, mike at least acknowledged that they're aware of the value of troves in particular

giga copium at this point but whatever

[charred ridge]

they were aware in 1.2 already

[arctic oar]

I saw it get asked way more frequently lately

[charred ridge]

ya cause it's crazy that it still hasnt been addressed

[arctic oar]

the community has a phase delay of T/2 when it comes to these things

and since strong voice = changes apparently

[charred ridge]

ya

[arctic oar]

maybe now's the time

[charred ridge]

i think the players at the top just need to share the meta asap

so the masses can stop lagging behind

and complain together with us

[arctic oar]

I said before in general where many EHG people were typing "if I knew a dude with 3k hours that clocked 1k uber kills in one season was active, I'd pay note to things they type as a point of reference"

hope that amounted to something

[charred ridge]

nah cause they don't design the game for him

if you're killing uber the game is not designed for you

[arctic oar]

I'll see for how long I can sniff copium, rose tinted glasses don't last forever

[vapid kindle]

has veterans boots uber been done yet?

[charred ridge]

i quote "0.1% of ppl defeating REGULAR aberroth should be able to defeat uber" before they released uber

and you can bet your ass that 100% of players are not beating regular aberroth

so in their mind beating uber is like idk top 0.01% of players

kek

[arctic oar]

there was a metric that a quarter of the playerbase makes it to empowered

flying around

not sure how accurate it is

[vapid kindle]

mike corrected that

[charred ridge]

probably

[vapid kindle]

he said he heavily underestimated it

[charred ridge]

i havent seen it myself but i cant imagine it being that hard

[arctic oar]

good because that was the craziest metric I heard to this day

[charred ridge]

whowasitagain (trikster?) did uber in magic gear with falconer 1.2

i mean i wouldnt be surprised if 25% of players made it to empowered like