📚┃off-topic

[jade jackal]

It became so bad, they tried for years and years to unionize in order to improve their conditions

[twilit mountain]

Blizz actually has some large unions now to my knowledge

[jovial bane]

seeing the twitter craze on Larian, I do get the LE craze as well

damn

autodesk software is more common in, well all the other industries

[jade jackal]

Swen said something stupid

nobody deserves being swarmed, but im absolutely not on his side of using stolen-generated art for ideas

[jovial bane]

Googling already is very likely stealing, so I don't get that argument

[fierce moth]

@blissful token I guess you're familiar with this type of...The way to get street food or have a quick dinner

It calls... Food community?

We just called it night market or food square. It means a street full of street food usually

[jade jackal]

this depends on how far we wanna go with the definition of stealing

I believe that art and originality loses a lot of its value if we rely on machine-chewed ideas sourced from existing work, some of it original and some of it regurgitated in order to come up with "fresh" ideas

[jovial bane]

scraping of the Internet images for any purpose, considering the talk is about I believe moodboards before even concept is produced

[jade jackal]

Inspiration is important, i have nothing to criticize in getting inspired

[jovial bane]

I don't think there is much of a difference between machine that takes copyrighted stuff and regurgites it, then you take it as inspiration and taking copyrighted stuff as inspiration

[jade jackal]

Drawings are what inspired many famous photographs

[jovial bane]

Either both are wrong, or neither are

[jade jackal]

This btw is where i would disagree with at least the quality of work you get inspired by

Good art has a person behind it, a story behind it, clear inspiration from current and past events, locations and stories

I much prefer from-zero intent piece of art than "something that just looked cool online"

I know i might be in the minority, but this to me is the great gap between something that just looks cool, and something that exceeds that

[jovial bane]

I agree with that, question is how much of it was used

I think it's more nuanced discussion

And frankly it's up to artist, which is how I got they use it

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[blissful token]

same actually

[obtuse rune]

Can we have a morning market? That would be great..we don't normally have night markets here but it's really cool and I know that food be hitting the spot.

[fierce moth]

?

I always sleep in the morning so I don't know any morning market

[jade jackal]

Isnt a morning market just... a market?

Most markets i know of start operating at around 6:30

[obtuse rune]

Don't take this away from me, dj 😭

but yes but they don't have various stalls of breakfast food

[jade jackal]

Sounds like a your area problem

[fierce moth]

which breakfast food are you want to eat?... Sticky rice food is the most common one here

[obtuse rune]

I'd tear up some sticky rice foods

[fierce moth]

......Emmmmmmm
But they're high GI 🤔

[obtuse rune]

GI?

[fierce moth]

Low GI: Digested slowly, causing a gradual blood sugar rise (e.g., beans, most fruits, whole grains).
High GI: Digested quickly, causing a sharp spike (e.g., white bread, potatoes, sugary drinks).

[jade jackal]

I dont thing that's the first thing on Van's mind when he's hungry

The scale changes to what's tastier

[fierce moth]

lol....
Oh. Ok... Alright. I'm think it's why Chinese prefer to take a nap at noon (Chinese like rice, rice is high GI)

It's much more delicious compare with only a cup of water as breakfast indeed

[jade jackal]

Yeah, its all starches and refined carbs, it knocks you out

That reminds me i have two steaks waiting for me to cook

[fierce moth]

I hate myself be sleepy at the noon so I tried to delay my sleep time and sleep on the morning, but I found I still sleepy at noon because the weather is hot or I just tired (don't get enough sleep)

How to keep energetic is a hard problem

[sand wigeon]

Are we seriously saying AI generated art is the same as a human looking at a human made drawing and feeling inspired by it

Are we seriously saying the stupid line of “nothing is original anyway! everything is inspired” in a roundabout way to say AI art is fine

[obtuse rune]

Making me quite hungry...and yes at this point when it comes to food

[sand wigeon]

TBF some places just don’t have markets!

[obtuse rune]

Anything is bad for you..

[sand wigeon]

I’ve never been to a market before

Never seen one, really

Go into a grocery store or gas station or don’t buy food, really

[fierce moth]

I plan to eat one of that now

I want to know do you know what is it

[obtuse rune]

Is that sweet potato?

[fierce moth]

hhhhhhhhhhh

Alright. The name is egg yolk pastry

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xO4Gdbzqt20
How to make that ⬆️

[obtuse rune]

oooo okie. That's interesting... sadly I try to stay away from the yolk (I usually just eat egg whites)

High in Cholesterol

but this still looks good

[fierce moth]

Yes yolk is the core of flavour.

[jade jackal]

High in good cholesterol

have at it, go ham

i'd love to try this egg stuff

Softboil is one of my favorite types

[jovial bane]

I don't like egg yolk that much, but it does look good

[fierce moth]

Yolk is salty so the yolk can balance the sweetness well

[fierce moth]

A little tip: Use duck yolk to make salty yolk if you can't buy some. It's not egg yolk.

Salty duck yolk is look like that

[jade jackal]

Does it go with any special seasoning or side dish?

[fierce moth]

stir fry with crabs, make a sauce with salted egg to cook chicken wings/pastas/tofu, spread that powder on fried chicken drums/fried shrimps

🤔 ...I'm not sure which way will Europeans prefer

If fried tofu work, I think fried cheese work too

...I should cook a plate of cream traffle pasta with salted egg powder next night. I want to eat pasta with salty egg yolk sauce

[jovial bane]

that sounds very good

Cheese has quite a strong taste unlike tofu, I think tofu cannot be replaced

[fierce moth]

Oh don't forget you can mince duck salty tolk into your cream so you can eat yolk flavour cakes

(I like Snowflake Crisp with yolk flavour. Minced egg yolk + meat floss + seaweed + biscuits + melted marshmallow + milk powder + melted butter)

sweet + salty is golden combo in snacks

[jade jackal]

I do like sweet and salty, absolutely

Its my golden rule for icecream, if its sweet, it has to have a salty kick

This explains my love of pistachio and salted caramel flavors

[fierce moth]

yes salty and sweet = salted caramel flavour for westerns, salty and sweet = salted yolk flavour for Asians

different understandings but the same essence

[jovial bane]

heh, true

[jovial bane]

No. Looking at say 8 pictures drawn by humans and then drawing w/e inspired you, and looking at 8 pictures say 3 of them were generated and then drawing is the same.

[fierce moth]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xD0xlW
Damn I never know swamp area can be quite beautiful too...

The roof of these houses just too creative, I love the design so much

[jovial bane]

ohhh, those are sweet

[obtuse rune]

Big fan of those designs

[fierce moth]

these designs? Oh. An art enjoyer Van is.

[gilded elm]

I actually thought Swen's entire response to the initial question (not the Twitter drama, the actual answer he gave in the relevant interview being criticized) was totally level-headed and reasonable.

In fact, Swen's response only solidified Larian's competence as a studio for me.

I have a deeper appreciation for his breadth of knowledge and his understanding of the evolving landscape and how Larian is adapting within it. None of what he said in the interview struck me as controversial IMO.

[maiden widget]

it seemed actually pretty level headed for a C suite honestly

wish half of my bosses would be see ai in that light

[gilded elm]

Right? It's so refreshing to see. I wish every executive was that pragmatic about AI.

[maiden widget]

all i get is "we need more speed!" "use ai whenever possible! its good" (spoiler it mostly isnt, especially in the hands of less than good engineers)

[gilded elm]

I totally see the value in using it to rapidly prototype new concepts. I think almost everyone agrees using AI to create the final product is a bad idea, but it absolutely has value in prototyping concepts.

[jade jackal]

Im not giving AI for creative work an inch.

not half an inch

[maiden widget]

the issue is that the speed people gain during prototyping is lost when reviewing and building stable solutions

and people who dont even have the smallest chance of gauging if a solution that "works" actually works is even worse

[gilded elm]

Then your issue is capitalism, not AI.

[jade jackal]

And i will vote with my wallet on such matter.

[maiden widget]

good

everyone should

[gilded elm]

I think it's fair to take issue with AI's impact on jobs and environment, but the fact is that they do have practical value.

[sudden anchor]

Is it worth it tho?

[gilded elm]

Vote with your wallet for sure. I personally don't see myself not buying a Larian game just because they use AI for prototyping very early concepts to assess the merit of exploring an idea further.

[gilded elm]

It's extremely overhyped. I don't think the way it's pushed is worth it. I think the way Swen talks about using it though is very worth it.

[maiden widget]

can save tons of time, can waste tons of time, requires level headed people to use it correctly as tool instead of a crutch

[gilded elm]

Yeah. Linus Torvalds has a good take on AI as well. Vibe coding for example is a good way to introduce people to the idea of programming, but vibe coding as a profession is a terrible idea and terrible use of AI.

Just as using AI to generate the final product (whether it's an image, sprite, texture, video etc) is a bad idea, incorporating it into your workflow in a way that empowers humans is a good idea if it actually increases your output (and it can and does when used correctly).

[jade jackal]

It doesnt empower humans, it shrinks your imagination

[gilded elm]

I think you're confusing interactive LLMs like Chat GPT for all AI.

[sudden anchor]

I forced myself to use only AI for an app and it wasn't very productice indeed. The best way would've been to use both, my skills in programming, which are pretty non existant, and AI.

[gilded elm]

I don't think ChatGPT-like LLMs contribute a lot of value. To be clear, I don't think ChatGPT is a particularly good use of AI.

[jade jackal]

Im talking about generative AI

[gilded elm]

We use generative tools everywhere. Generative AI is a generative tool.

[jade jackal]

Yes.

[gilded elm]

We've had generative tools for decades before AI.

[maiden widget]

how do you get people to go from easily creating stuff with vibe coding to having to do stuff yourself tho

i think vibe coding is not a good thing for education

[gilded elm]

You're basically making a blanket statement that all generative tools don't empower humans which is patently false.

[jade jackal]

Im making one hell of a blanket statement and am proud to stand behind it. Generative text, images and music for the purpose of entertainment is making us dumber and less creative.

[sudden anchor]

I do think only a fool would force himself past a certain point to use AI.

[gilded elm]

When I look back 20+ years into the past and think about how I got into programming, I think about why I chose web in particular. I've settled on the idea that it's because of the immediate feedback loop where you can visually see what you're building. I see vibe coding (and I don't know if Linus sees it the same way, but sounds like it) as similar to that, there's this feedback loop of how programs go from a concept to code.

[maiden widget]

íts basically the same thing as students cheating instead of learning, its just too tempting not to abuse it for many

[gilded elm]

There are programming tools that basically do this, have existed for a long time before AI was even a thing, of course. You just eventually ween people off of those tools and push them into using real tools. Think stuff like BlueJay or Logo.

[maiden widget]

but you dont even know how to think when programming when the computer does it at the start, getting into the mindset of how stuff works is way harder when the machine seemingly does it all already

[gilded elm]

Yeah there is definitely a disconnect where logical thinking isn't as promoted as it is with things like Logo, but it still acts as an effective introductory tool to get people excited about programming.

I'm not a big fan of my job market being "saturated" but I truly think more people who know how to code is overall a good thing for society.

[jovial bane]

I personally don't mind it in the background that much, like in E33 either. Just keep away the abominable intelligence monstrosities away from the centre. And don't replace people with it

[maiden widget]

I'm just not sure if that really is a good introduction to getting excited, maybe nowadays it's needed but back in the desktop only days just seeing how many mods for games exist was exciting as teen to want to do it myself

[jovial bane]

The alters is an example where I don't have an issue. Because who the hell would notice this, especially when the text is moving and that's max zoom in

[gilded elm]

Great game, one of my favorites for sure. Loved that game so much.

[jovial bane]

Sleeper game of the year IMO

[gilded elm]

See I wasn't even a gamer when I got into programming. So I think there is a lack of "entry points" if you will.

[gilded elm]

"What If" song on YouTube is permanently in my feed now because of how much I've listened to that song lol

https://youtu.be/leV4hg7UrmQ This one :D

[jovial bane]

On the bright side, I think Divinity is way past concept art phase ? And considering how hard the trailer went, I don't think generative slop is affecting the creative vision

[gilded elm]

Divinity trailer was brutal, in an amazing way. If any of that was AI "slop" (which I very much doubt it was) then that's a credit to AI lol

One of the best trailers I've seen in a while.

[jovial bane]

definitely

[junior oyster]

Felt like a diablo game

[jovial bane]

I genuinely was surprised, because it felt like Diablo

Went even harder than Diablo lol

[gilded elm]

Yeah I thought it was for some ARPG or something

[jovial bane]

until I've noticed NSFW frame for a moment, then I knew it wasn't Diablo

[junior oyster]

Honestly it can't beat RoS for me but that's because the rest of D3 was awful xD

[jovial bane]

I have not played D3 in ages, but I have a sinking feeling that D4 > D3 .__.

[junior oyster]

D4 is great for the gore

[jovial bane]

I personally think the paragon levels board idea is kind of genius

[junior oyster]

But RoS feels great because for once it isn't a demon that's a threat

Changes the narrative

[jovial bane]

it's almost like digestible PoE tree

[jade jackal]

Sort of, for now, but not in all aspects

[gilded elm]

I still think D4 doesn't feel like a Diablo game in atmosphere. It just doesn't feel as grim.

[junior oyster]

I'm not on about gameplay

Just story

[jovial bane]

I'd say it depends, expansion I've heard wasn't good

[junior oyster]

I legit prefer the story of RoS over d4 especially VoH

[maiden widget]

I think its pretty fitting, people just seem to fall over for lilith but what happens is pretty grim

[gilded elm]

Grim Dawn truly feels like a successor to D2's "vibe"

[jade jackal]

VOH's story ended disappointingly imo

[jovial bane]

RoS campaign was much better, yeah

[junior oyster]

That intro to Malthael was sick

Beats anything in d4 so far imo

[jade jackal]

I did not think we were going to get 2 expansions revolving around chasing mephisto

[junior oyster]

It's one expansion that they split in half

[jovial bane]

yeah, that's lame

[gilded elm]

Yeah, that was unfortunate. I expected one expansion per Prime Evil.

[junior oyster]

To scam as many people like me as possible

[jovial bane]

same, one big expansion per prime evil

[jade jackal]

I don't think Nahantu and Skovos were supposed to be piled up by one expansion

that would be a little cruel to assume

[maiden widget]

the story telling in VoH was super bad

[junior oyster]

Nahantu should have been ignored

I knew who the traitor was before the game even began

[maiden widget]

why dont they just hire people who wrote their diablo novels, they werent amazing but so much better

[jade jackal]

Diablo is having what many other games are having - problems building relateable and interesting characters

it all feels generic

I dont care if X or Y dies, at any given time

Besides Lorath, wanna know why?

Because of RoS.

[gilded elm]

It's a shame because Diablo universe has a lot of fleshed out lore outside of the games.

[junior oyster]

Honestly for me this hits so much better than anything D4 so far
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbL-7SKeB6E

[jade jackal]

im ok with the animated comic book shorts

tho they did left me hungry for more

they felt rushed because they were rushed

[gilded elm]

Inarius, Lilith, Rathma... like the premise of D4 is solid. I mostly dislike the presentation.

[junior oyster]

That video is basically a true continuation of D2 for me

[jade jackal]

Diablo seems a little afraid to delve into more complex situations

D3 surprisingly delved into a more complex scenario from the getgo

[maiden widget]

the sin wars novels were so much better than anything you saw in d4

[jade jackal]

with Tyreal leaving the council

[jovial bane]

I think key moments of the characters in D4 were solid on paper

execution of them was bad

[junior oyster]

Rathma getting offed rubbed me the wrong way

[gilded elm]

btw I haven't followed any of the Paladin stuff, haven't bought the new expansion yet. What's the story around the reappearance of paladins?

[maiden widget]

I'm not playing d4 for some sitcom/drama thing

[jade jackal]

The whole Rathma story thing is very unfortunate

[maiden widget]

i want an epic story that involves me, i dont want to be the npc on the side

[junior oyster]

Yep

Well D2 does the same thing

[maiden widget]

we havent seen yet, i assume that comes with the expansion

[junior oyster]

But it does it better than D4

[maiden widget]

in diablo2 you do all the things

[jade jackal]

D1-3 had the character be very meaningful to sanctuary

[maiden widget]

you follow the wanderer but you kill the demons and help people

[jade jackal]

in D4 you are downgraded from the Nephalem to a Wanderer

you are a nobody

[gilded elm]

Ah, so they just released the class but didn't actually reveal any story around it yet.

[junior oyster]

Lol yea

[gilded elm]

I was honestly expecting templars instead of paladins.

[maiden widget]

there is one small sidequest but mostly yeah

its a mix of crusader and paladin

[jade jackal]

D3 ended with the Nephalem being the strongest character in the universe, cannonically

It also ended with Tyrael questioning what will happen if the Nephalem decides they stop being the good guys

[gilded elm]

Given that Paladins fell from grace due to Mephisto in the events of D2, I guess the new expansion with paladins is going to focus on redemption.

[jade jackal]

and... we did nothing with that cliffhanger question

womp womp

[junior oyster]

Isn't Trag-oul stronger or something?

But he doesn't get involved for some reason

[jade jackal]

You need to be alive to count

[junior oyster]

Also pretty sure Rathma is supposed to be a nephalem too

But he got offed too easily

[jade jackal]

Rathma had nephalem powers, yes

[gilded elm]

I forget, aren't all humans basically just very diluted nephalems?

[jade jackal]

Each generation nephalem become weaker, and weaker

[gilded elm]

Yeah

[jade jackal]

Uldyssian was considered the strongest, since he was the prime nephalem

And then we get retconned the information that at the end of RoS we are as strong as he was

[junior oyster]

Yea I kinda hated that

Also thought Rathma was the first nepahlem

[jade jackal]

first, but not strongest

idk why, dont ask me why lol

Its that thing where people are born with different potential

[gilded elm]

Rathma was powerful just in different ways IMO

[jade jackal]

and Uldyssian was just different

He was Broly

Son of a farmer, yada yada

The Sin War books basically describes his story

There's a trilogy package now for it

[gilded elm]

I wonder if it's on Audible

[maiden widget]

decent story, way better than anything we got ingame

[jade jackal]

It is on Audible

[maiden widget]

bit below the games workshop stuff qulity wise

[gilded elm]

Ayy https://www.audible.com/series/Diablo-The-Sin-War-Series-Audiobooks/B085G2MGML

Not a bad price actually

Gonna have to listen to a sample, hopefully the narrator is good

[jade jackal]

I just hope we get more Lorath in the upcoming expansion

and by more i mean more than 5 lines of dialog

[junior oyster]

I hope we get something of Tyrael

At least 1 line

[jade jackal]

Do you think he will come back? isnt he 6 feet under?

the grave we see in the intro Lorath speaks to?

[junior oyster]

Comics/games always bring back characters

[jade jackal]

Well, they made him human and killed him, so

[junior oyster]

Recent trailer showed someone digging

I'd have to rewatch

[gilded elm]

Yeah but how often does Blizzard bring back angels?

[jade jackal]

The paladin digging into an armor cache to then wear it?

Blizzard doesnt bring back angels, it just creates new one

[junior oyster]

So? In comics regular heroes like Batman always come back lool

[jade jackal]

and use lore-accurate ones for new content

like they did now

[junior oyster]

He'll be back I hope

[jade jackal]

They brought back Hadriel

[gilded elm]

I mean I would love to see Tyrael

[junior oyster]

Same

Fake tyrael

[jade jackal]

He came back after getting slaughtered

But he is a real angel, not like Tyrael who converted

[junior oyster]

Wait so that means like demons Inarius can come back?

[jade jackal]

All angels can, as long as they are angels

[junior oyster]

Didn't even know Hadriel died lol

Hadriel was from d2 right?

[jade jackal]

ye

[junior oyster]

Ah yea you were right

I thought they pulled a 'open the tomb but don't show what's inside'

[fierce moth]

https://discord.com/channels/368953963267096586/1175275602916429934
I think use threads to chat is a good idea when multiple topics are here

[junior oyster]

Oh forgot threads exist

[desert jasper]

Man
I kinda hate the wayvard spear fight in the interlude 3
If it takes too long she gets all those spirits and is suddenly like 20x tankier, does way more dmg, more skills

[fierce moth]

any screenshots?

I don't remember any boss combats in interluade 3 includes spirits

[desert jasper]

Yeah let me just take a screenshot when I'm not in game.

[junior oyster]

I might come back to poe2 when they get rid of interludes

[desert jasper]

Just wait for them to combine the 3 to become act5

[junior oyster]

Ngl I hate a4 too

The final boss is a pain

I hate multiple phase bosses that talk like a Disney villain

[desert jasper]

yup

I don't really mind the rest of act4
but come on, the boss is

[junior oyster]

Yep

I would have preferred the Sirus copy to be the final boss

At least crowbell with 3 phases is just you chasing it down to the different segments

Ngl a beta game shouldn't be included

And yes I'm aware I was part of the reason it got nominated

And still going to vote it

Once again I hope nms get labour of love

But probably will go to BG3 or HD2

[fierce moth]

3 unique items from the same enemy... it's a new record.

Rogue exile is the coolest encounter I played. Endless amulets, robes, rings to offer.

Although 99% loots from the exile are trash

It just don't connect architect's room. Why why why why

[warped wren]

I'm not even doing temple till they introduce the patch

though the patch looks kinda bleh anyway

[jovial bane]

wrong room type, that's why

what's the correct room type ?

¯_(ツ)_/¯

they are changing it next patch

[desert jasper]

Currently it needs one of the path tiles, not a room tile to connect
Next patch room tiles work
I assume it only will apply to newly made temples

[fierce moth]

....GGG must kidding me. What the hell rewards from t3 garrison... t4 map is the most value one. Yes, and the map isn't rare even.

...Oh I don't need to "close" temple to remove random rooms anymore, great

[warped wren]

Yeah the temple is actual garbage

Legit the worst league mechanic I have ever experienced across both games

[jovial bane]

which is impressive given how many league mechanics exist

[neon sigil]

@twilit mountain you gonna be on tonight?

[fierce moth]

Oh artstation have recap too

I feel I just start to build my story, build my life and build my traits. It's a year to reboot 🤔

[neon sigil]

@twilit mountain armour stacker almost complete.
I think I'm gonna add thorns to it.
Because I can afk in t15 bosses

[jade jackal]

lmao good one blizzard

forgot the placeholder cosmetic

[abstract karma]

I am trying to install Diablo 2. I’ve downloaded Downloader_Diablo2_enUS.exe but when I try to run it (As admin) I get the following error message:
Windows cannot access the specified device, path, or file. You may not have the appropriate permissions to access them.

That's why i hate windows more and more.. Simple older installer and you cant f.. bypass a shit
Idk how to get from that f.. error

[vagrant topaz]

Have you tried compatibility mode ?

[abstract karma]

yep, different fold (litterally different disk), admins, check if my antivirus has some problems (nope)

[abstract karma]

yep i will try find solution when i get sleep.. Not even some old forums helps..

A lot of stupid links from blizzard went to void a only thing yo ucan use is acc and old link which send you to "tech support page" where are these downloaders..

(idk why is such problems same as warcraft 3 use their app since they force you relog to bnet once per 30 days)

[gilded elm]

There's no other OS on the planet that has stronger binary compatibilities than Windows, to be fair.

It's one of the reasons why Linux will never be mainstream.

[abstract karma]

also it will be probably first OS which will runs on cloud which will for me means switch to linux or steam OS on any kind of rare found hardware in next years anyway

[gilded elm]

I hate to break it to you but there isn't a single Linux distro that has a stable ABI (application binary interface) and you will absolutely encounter compatibility issues across minor updates.

[abstract karma]

for my usage of PC i will survive these things.. its not my first rodeo of using linux... just havent used it for while

definitely wont using cloud system OS and paying 50$ for mont usge lol

[gilded elm]

The fact that you can even run a 20 year old executable in Windows 10/11 in 2025 is an absolute marvel and one of the few things that I think Windows has done extremely well, nobody else comes even close to this level of binary compatibility.

[abstract karma]

worst of worst you can always make hardest way if you need such old software to launch - virtualization

[gilded elm]

Actually I think Linus Torvalds even talks about exactly this topic. He praises Windows for its compatibility.

Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pzl1B7nB9Kc

This is still true in 2025 btw, foundational Linux software and Linux distros still operate the same way.

"Maybe Valve will save the Linux desktop" - Torvalds, 2014. Man that is crazy hahaha

We're not quite there yet, but Valve has been pivotal for pushing Linux to a wider audience and it's amazing that he recognized their potential value even back then. Wow, such a great moment of speculation.

[jade jackal]

My linux work laptop has an NVIDIA GPU in it without a proper driver

I hate their lack of support with passion

[gilded elm]

The good (proprietary) NVIDIA driver should be in the third party package repos now, shouldn't be that hard to install.

[real kayak]

d2 always installs fine on my win10/11 machines

and that installer just launches a torrent downloader

it's not the actual installer exe

[gilded elm]

Is that what the downloadable D2 installer does? It just runs a torrent client to get the real installer from whoever is still seeding it? lol

[real kayak]

yup

blizz still seeds it but it's slow

[gilded elm]

lol, Blizzard can't even be bothered to host the installer themselves

[jade jackal]

This is something GOG seems to do better

(im assuming its on GOG)

(ok i seemed to have assumed wrong because of D2R)

[real kayak]

nah you can still get the original d2 / lod files from blizz, they're just tucked away pretty deep

https://eu.support.blizzard.com/en/article/13867?flowTrackingId

[old dune]

@real kayak I see. . so you also play diablo 4?

@neon sigil I recently installed and bought poe2 last night... over diablo 4.. did I made the right choice?

[neon sigil]

I haven't played Diablo 4, so can't tell ya.
but poe2 is fun.

[old dune]

@neon sigil I see . . right now I can't create poe account.. so that one account for poe 1 and 2 sharing stash. . server is down.. maybe I'll install poe 1 too . create account there.. and then link it to poe 2...

[fierce moth]

Emmmm I doubt do new pillow is high enough

Alright, I need 2 more books for the height yet

I can't sleep without book stacks

Old is 3 books, new is 2 books

...I still want to try another one. It seems I'm not a fan of this pillow

Leave it here one night, I want to try Nukboo's pillow (this one is sleepmore)

[sand wigeon]

It’s not though

You’re missing half of art in that process

You’re missing the understanding of why the artist chose that color, or that framing, or whatever

You don’t get that with AI art

There is no intent

Like you’re just saying you don’t understand art

This is why art class is important on god

[fierce moth]

what the hell

Deias is insane on leveling

[sand wigeon]

She does nothing but play ARPG’s lol

[fierce moth]

Jesus I can't imagine how Deias level up to lv 70 in such a short time

[sand wigeon]

Plays ten hours a day

[fierce moth]

.......

🫡

[twilit mountain]

I just play a lot and I hate PoE2 league starts so much that I intentionally wait a few days so I can get spare gems from friends and the ability to buy greater jewelers orbs for cheap

[sand wigeon]

I hate PoE2 league starts so much that I intentionally wait an indefinite number of days

[twilit mountain]

Also yeah this, like 60% of my Steam playtime this year was ARPGs

[sand wigeon]

Can confirm

It basically comes down to a flowchart. Is she in so much pain she needs to lie down? If yes, then she’s lying down not doing anything. If no, she’s playing ARPG’s. Has Dream asked to hangout? If no, then she plays ARPG’s. If yes, then sometimes she’s still playing ARPG’s because we’re sitting in a discord call watching something. If we’re not watching something, am I playing a game we both play? If yes, then we’re playing together. If no, she’s playing ARPG’s.

[twilit mountain]

Hey, I still play some other things, just not as often

[sand wigeon]

The flow chart is still accurate

[fierce moth]

I can feel the passion of Deias for ARPG is flooding on my screen

[twilit mountain]

Would it surprise you to learn my favorite video games aren't even ARPGs?

[fierce moth]

No, me too

ARPG is a good option to spend free time

[sand wigeon]

I spend my free time creating firearms in my basement!

For legal reasons, this is a joke

It’s only digitally

[desert jasper]

Ah, you got those lvl 5 supports you wanted, deias?
what build are you playing?

[twilit mountain]

Thunder/Firestorm Weaver. Screen clutter galore.

[fierce moth]

@desert jasper@twilit mountain Have you saw your 1st divine orb in raw drop?

[sand wigeon]

Kirra, what programs do you use for making art?

[neon sigil]

🐴 I love crpgs man but they are a rare breed.

[fierce moth]

I get zero d yet...

Magicavoxel

[sand wigeon]

The only CRPG I’ve liked is BG2

[jovial bane]

mine neither despite the steam chart

[sand wigeon]

Well. It depends how you classify CRPG’s I guess

(Elder Scrolls 2 and 3, Disco Elysium, Wasteland series and Fallout 1 and 2 are all CRPG’s I enjoy if you class them as CRPG’s)

[twilit mountain]

Not yet no, I'm not going super hard as I'm on very budget gear atm

[jovial bane]

So it cannot inspire, as in it's soulless therefore it does not invoke any emotion or thought at all ?

[twilit mountain]

I am the biggest CRPG hater and my disappointment that new Divinity is going to be one is immeasurable

[jovial bane]

Daggerfall and Morrowind are not cRPGs. The rest are classic examples. All good games though

[sand wigeon]

It’s not art

[jovial bane]

I'm not arguing it is

[sand wigeon]

Inspiration usually comes from a reflection of idea

It is often in part the intent of the original creation that can cause inspiration

Inspiration, for many an artist, comes from the “why?”

Analysis of art, written, drawn or heard is taught in schools

Everyone should know this

It astounds me that people do not

[twilit mountain]

We will never get a new entry like BD and DD again I fear

[jovial bane]

You mean it's always part of the intent ?

[sand wigeon]

Additionally, this conversation is removed from the actual, major error

[desert jasper]

No

[jovial bane]

Also I have a difficult question. People are not a monolith, if one artist dares to breach the taboo and experiments with it by say bringing couple of references generated

Should they be instantly fired ?

[sand wigeon]

If your concept art is created by AI, regurgitated from whatever it’s fed, then you cannot have inspired concept art

It erodes your creation from the ground up

You’re building off stilted foundations, everything created past that point will be based off an eroded concept art that fails to live up to the need

Additionally, it takes away work from actual artists

[sand wigeon]

This is like. not relevant

I’m not answering moral quizzes

[jovial bane]

It is

[sand wigeon]

It’s not lol

[jovial bane]

Because if you dare to breach it are you an artist anymore ?

[sand wigeon]

I am not arguing any moral actions, that is not my discussion

I am talking about the process of creating art and a game

You’re pulling away from the conversation I’m having to force me to answer a question unrelated

One that will frame me wrong no matter what I answer, because I don’t have an answer for it

[jovial bane]

The entire problem about using AI generation is that it's immoral and regurgitates things without human output

Those are two problems with it

[sand wigeon]

This is a debate tactic used to effectively bamboozle debate partners

[fierce moth]

Did Deias play 10h poe 2 today?

[jovial bane]

Morality is inherently tied to it

[sand wigeon]

You distract from the actual conversation and force them to answer something unrelated that the person often does not have an answer to

[twilit mountain]

I've been awake for like, 4 hours

[sand wigeon]

Like, I’m not an executive, I’m not HR, I can’t answer that

But notice how you refuse to engage in my actual topic and statements?

It’s an effective bamboozle

[desert jasper]

Thunderstorm is pretty good
the 20% guaranteed shock is strong

[sand wigeon]

You shift the topic to something else that I can’t rightly answer because you can’t engage with the original topic

[twilit mountain]

100% in my case :D

[jovial bane]

I do ? I did not answer the question below mine yet, sure. But I don't think I'm not addressing some points

[sand wigeon]

Oh my gods

[desert jasper]

Well
yeah. but even in builds that don't really specialize in it
saw someone in global use it even on some chaos dmg build... think it was with chaotic freeze?

[sand wigeon]

Either engage with my statement or don’t, I don’t care to argue morality, I care to discuss the actual creation of art because I am an artist

My point is that using AI art in the concept phase especially detracts from the overall limit of your design. It confines and boxes you in, it forces you to expand on stilted foundations. Your concept is inherently limited due to how AI art functions, regardless of any moral aspect, which will result in worse art and therefore a worse game.

[twilit mountain]

That one is kinda funny. I mainly use it as a clear and proc skill. Downside is the build kills my frames and also I cannot see the floor ever.

[jovial bane]

That's not wrong either, however we are talking about human made concept art and using generation in inspiration. If concept art was 100% generated then it's not a discussion, because everything is based off machine regurgitation.
I don't think 100% machine regurgitation makes anything unique.

[sand wigeon]

What does this have to do with what I just said

Using any AI concept art stilts your foundation

That’s just how it is

[jovial bane]

yeah, and what's before concept art ?

[sand wigeon]

Nothing???

Concept art is the first phase

[jovial bane]

not even references ?

inspiration seeking ?

[desert jasper]

You've ideas before concept art, don't you

[sand wigeon]

Yeah like

They’re not going in with a blank slate

They have other games to draw from

Past concept art

Writing for the series

[desert jasper]

Tbh I had issues seeing some boss attacks with Walking Calamity bear

[sand wigeon]

Mythology, which they’ve drawn from

[jovial bane]

That's my understanding yes, and I'm thinking about the case when you use it on inspiration stage

[sand wigeon]

Like at the wicker man in the trailer, that’s Celtic

[jovial bane]

Sure if you just generate concept art, you have no concept art

[sand wigeon]

Using AI art as inspiration stilts your foundation

There

Done

Yet another day where I encourage people to read Rostok’s Disco Elysium artbook

[warped wren]

my #1 issue this league has been rendering, idk wtf GGG did but holy god the performance is total ass

[twilit mountain]

Me when every single unique mob in the temple (even the in map things) spawns invisible

[jovial bane]

And I'm arguing. Does it ? And if it does, then why. And if there is a good reason why, what's the amount that poisons the creative process.

[desert jasper]

The really long loading screens
And yeah, some invisible monsters
items not loading properly on characters (or inventory)

[sand wigeon]

Why are you arguing?

Is it because you’re an AI art fan, as you’ve used it in the past?

Why are you arguing?

Like I don’t get it

[jovial bane]

Because it's an interesting topic. Can it be utilised at all ? I don't claim to be an artist, I only write stories which is not art at all.

Or because it poisons the process should we go back to the roots and reject google at all, because it will inevitably only hamper the creative process.

[sand wigeon]

WRITING STORIES ISN'T ART???

I am not talking to you

Anyway

Yeah the PoE performance has been weird

[desert jasper]

Saying that writing isn't art is like saying music or painting isn't art

[sand wigeon]

Writing is the main way I create art lol

[twilit mountain]

????????????

[jovial bane]

It's just D&D, hobby for me.
And frankly it's not good enough to be an art

[desert jasper]

how are you in maps already?

[sand wigeon]

Lo. My pathways, Exile. They are %#$*?^ up.

[jovial bane]

Especially considering that yeah, stupid generation gave me ideas

[sand wigeon]

DnD is art.

[twilit mountain]

Get T5 supports from a friend -> free leveling

[warped wren]

welcome to dogass pathing

[sand wigeon]

TTRPG's are actually some of the most creative art out there

If you were doing it yourself

[desert jasper]

Ah right, yeah.
I'm finding myself lacking damage currently tbh

[twilit mountain]

Extremely minor complaint; I hate the top "tier" of flasks being called "ultimate"

It sounds so lame

[desert jasper]

What, you don't want to sip on your ultimate monst... I mean, potion?

[sand wigeon]

my ultimate canteen of water

[jovial bane]

same

[warped wren]

it should be supercalifragilisticexpialidocius potion you are correct

[twilit mountain]

I just miss divine and eternal naming. Those, however loosely, had lore connections

[jovial bane]

My only problem is. Eternal was a tier above Divine right ? It feels odd

[twilit mountain]

Game plz

[warped wren]

but consider: pots are lame af and ARPGs would be infinitely better off if we didn't have to play around them

[sand wigeon]

Updates Limbus
Boots Limbus
"Please install a 15GB update"
ROCINANTE

[twilit mountain]

I suppose so. Though tbf, in the context of PoE divinity is not an "end all be all", it's actually pretty low on the scale

[desert jasper]

Yeah, I'd like to be able to get easy sustain through other means

[twilit mountain]

True and real

Give me back spell ES leech on tree you absolute cowards

[desert jasper]

But noo
can't have good life regen
can't have armor actually reducing physical dmg
even white monsters must be able to slap you silly

[sand wigeon]

you all should play a better game. have you heard of expedition 33? /s

[warped wren]

there's a lot of ARPG mechanics, ESPECIALLY in Poo2, that are outdated as all hell and need to go the way of the dodo stat

[desert jasper]

I'd buy it if I had the money for it

[sand wigeon]

i wouldn't

lol

i own it

[twilit mountain]

Hm yes, phys bein the only default leech. Wonder where I've seen that before....

[sand wigeon]

(i can't even run the game lmao)

[jovial bane]

the eternal UE5 problem

[sand wigeon]

i got ~7 hours in before the performance got too bad

it's... fine

like it's generally a good game

people's issues stem from the fact that it's:
a. not an indie game
b. won basically every award, over games that deserved it

[jovial bane]

I got to act I end, and it was. Yeah best game this year minus best RPG.

[sand wigeon]

nobody would have been mad if it just won goty, everyone expected it to

[desert jasper]

Ah, I need to head out
Have fun

[twilit mountain]

Have a good one, Nub o/

[sand wigeon]

people are mad because it won awards over things that deserved them more

have a good day nub

[jovial bane]

o/

[sand wigeon]

imo games should only be able to be nominated for one category

[desert jasper]

Cheers
Hope you have a nice night

[sand wigeon]

uhm ackshually it's morning

[jovial bane]

IDK. I don't disagree with the awards choices, it got snubbed in sound design by Battlefield 6 (which likely is deserved). I disagree on best RPG, but my opinion on that will cause a crapstorm.

[sand wigeon]

e33 isn't much an rpg

[jovial bane]

Best art direction ? I can see why it won, but I can why other games should win the award over it

[sand wigeon]

e33 didn't deserve best indie or best art direction either

[jovial bane]

jRPGs are not RPGs tbh

[sand wigeon]

it's not an indie, so

[jovial bane]

that's my hot take

[sand wigeon]

your hot take is lukewarm at best

[twilit mountain]

Big JRPG fan, this is the correct take tbqh

[jovial bane]

echhh, depends on how you define indie. I think it was independently published ? But personally I think indie spirit is a matter of budget more than being independent

[twilit mountain]

It was not independently published

[sand wigeon]

it wasn't independently published

[jovial bane]

then it's not a discussion

[twilit mountain]

It was published by Kepler Interactive, a publisher that is so large that Netease pumping 120mil into it was a minority stake

[sand wigeon]

it is

having a publisher doesn't make you not indie

the issue comes from the fact that it was also produced by an extremely large team of industry professionals with essentially infinite funding

look at silksong. independently published with infinite funding but an extremely small team? indie

[jovial bane]

Oh I mean by E33 getting best indie, it's not a discussion it shouldn't because it wasn't independently published, nor AA game has "spirit of indie"

[sand wigeon]

now look at... book of hours. made by a small team with moderate funding and independently published

you need to meet a few things to no longer be indie, just having a publisher isn't enough anymore with how many publishers now promote indie games, such as devolver

I'd say it depends on what publisher if you have one, how much funding you have and how many people worked on the game

[jovial bane]

yeah.
Dave the Diver opened that can of worm. It was published by major publisher, but everything in it also felt very much what indie games were

[twilit mountain]

It was developed by a subsidiary of Nexon as well, the devs themselves said "we're not indie, why are we here"

[jovial bane]

also, can of worms kind of

[sand wigeon]

frankly i wouldn't even really disagree if the qualifier for indie or not now falls to whether or not the studio behind it is large and corporatized

[jovial bane]

aren't Witcher games kind of indie ?

[sand wigeon]

no

it's made by a large corporate studio with tons of funding and recognition from expensive marketing

[jovial bane]

Because Witcher 2 was published by CD Project, but Bandai Namco did it in the rest of the world

It was both self published and externally published

[twilit mountain]

CDPR is a subsidiary of a larger company

[jovial bane]

But I wouldn't put it in the indie category

[sand wigeon]

the witcher games were already well known at the time thanks to the witcher books

they didn't need a ton of marketing

[twilit mountain]

It's also a publicly traded company

[jovial bane]

yeah, that's pretty much the opposite in spirit

who published KCD2 ?

[sand wigeon]

Deep Silver

huge publisher

they did metro

dead island

saints row

[twilit mountain]

Saints Row

[sand wigeon]

like huge

red faction

[twilit mountain]

peak

What a good game

[sand wigeon]

deadlight if anyone knows that (i owned it on xbox and loved it)

they do lots of zombie games now that i think of it

[desert jasper]

Ah wonderful
some guy drinking vodka at the bus stop and it's not even 9am

[sand wigeon]

based alert

[desert jasper]

some guy isn't me btw

[sand wigeon]

it could be you

[desert jasper]

Don't wanna

[sand wigeon]

not based alert...

[desert jasper]

I'd rather do that at home

Instead of out in the cold

[sand wigeon]

getting arrested is the best part tho

[desert jasper]

They don't really arrest for it over here unless you're way too drunk and start causing a scene
Usually they just tell you to move

[sand wigeon]

how fortuitous

[jovial bane]

anyway with publishers picking up so many indie games, I think budget is becoming an important factor.

I don't think games like E33 (because it cost only 10M$) or BG3 should compete there

but something like Ball x Pit, despite being published by Devolver probably should

[junior oyster]

I kinda like steam awards more tbqh

[twilit mountain]

I love people pulling "only" on 10mil. As if 10mil is small for some reason lmao

[jovial bane]

I mean game budget wise it is

but it's no small sum lmao

[twilit mountain]

Game budget for AAA maybe

[jovial bane]

yeah

[junior oyster]

It felt wild to me that mario kart world beat sonic racing crossworlds in the racing category

[twilit mountain]

That's like, orders of magnitudes more than the vast majority of indie games, and even then equal to some things in AAA as well

I unironically believe that Hades 2 shouldn't have even been in the indie category

[junior oyster]

Like mkw is mostly a dead game with the way Nintendo has treated it so far

[jovial bane]

I think with pure indies, yk independently published, small games. We will run into a bit of a discoverability issue

[twilit mountain]

Semi-related to production costs, the (I think) CEO behind Ashes of Creation is claiming that it costs them $800,000+ per week to stay running. Dude's either lying his ass off or that company is mismanaged so poorly that it makes Ubisoft's bloat look like industry standard

[jovial bane]

that does not sound that unreas... PER WEEK !?

[dense heart]

Per week or per month?

I mean

[twilit mountain]

Per week

[dense heart]

Not that per month is honestly looking much better

But yeah lmao

800k in monopoly money, perhaps

Just to be clear with how that stacks up, for the back row here

That's a purported 3,200,000 per month

[jovial bane]

I could see New World costing 800k per month

[abstract karma]

800k per week ? even if they would have busines model as WoW it wouldnt be enough from players lol

[jovial bane]

on launch

[twilit mountain]

Ah man, New World. What a neat concept that game was. Shame it ended up uh... y'know, being what it was

[abstract karma]

New world just neede more skills variations and less speed up in some parts, deeper some features and it could be still there..

But they made from it just something between themepark and Warframe

[dense heart]

So they had this original concept

Then they handed it to the guy who killed SWG, as I understand it

I think I have that guy right

[twilit mountain]

Extend SWG for me, i can't place the acronym

[dense heart]

That guy basically took this original PVP survival concept, and turned it into a theme park

Star Wars Galaxies

I'm pretty sure that's Scot Lane's kill?

[twilit mountain]

Ahh. Yeah I think so?

[dense heart]

Anyway, Scot Lane had been attributed to the failure of an MMORPG and they no less put him in charge of it

Ironically they shuttered it after it started gaining traction again. It's like it broke even and called it quits

[desert jasper]

800k a week?
Surely that's not true

[dense heart]

Even still

Multi-millions to be in alpha.

But I'd still consider forgiving just about everything if the guy's language weren't so dodgy. I'm pretty sure the dude would dodge questions at the pearly gates, he does just about anything except answer questions directly from what I saw

[sand wigeon]

hi i'm working on an indie game with a solid budget of -$2

the $2 was for a croissant

[dense heart]

The smell of burnt sugar.

[desert jasper]

Ah, one of the corpo types that one
Always seem to be good at answering questions without actually answering it

[dense heart]

The tactic is to basically have nothing on record that obligates you to any kind of tangible or definite result. So the question is 'will there be RNG lootboxes,' he does not say no. He says 'I do not like RNG lootboxes.'

Ok. Thanks?

Then there's the referral program

[fierce moth]

Cool, I have budget to upgrade current trash gears finally

[dense heart]

15% royalties on any expenditures made by any accounts you refer, which come back in the form of their e-shop currency I guess. They say you'll be eligible for quarterly payouts when they release

This couldn't possibly incentivize anything.

[twilit mountain]

that feels so scummy

[dense heart]

Let me dig

oh god

it was the first ping on google.

Yeah it says it, although to be fair

"After Ashes of Creation's official retail release, Intrepid Bucks earned through our referral program can be used to purchase Embers (which can then be used to purchase in-game items from the cosmetic store) reduce subscription costs, and obtain cash rewards on a quarterly basis after Ashes of Creation." is the verbatim quote from their site

After Ashes of Creation what? Just... after? It has an end-date?

Anyway yeah it's right there on their website. You get 15% royalties as 'intrepid bucks,' which you can spend on your sub, or to buy in-game premium currency, or else these supposed cash rewards.

[warped wren]

isn't Ashes of Creation that MMO that Thor was shilling

[desert jasper]

Oh that's just wonderful

[twilit mountain]

No way, the cheater, sex pest, jackass who shills mediocre to dogshit MMOs was shilling a mediocre to dogshit MMO?

[fierce moth]

Which one is more important for lich, more es or faster recharge of es?

[warped wren]

his downfall was one of the funniest own goals I've seen

[junior oyster]

I have literally no idea who you are referring to lol but does sound funny

Also ashes of creation?

Isn't that the wolcen game devs? Or am I thinking of something else

[twilit mountain]

Nah Wolcen studio is on some extraction ARPG thing

[junior oyster]

I see

[twilit mountain]

I love my dialogue that doesn't make a lick of sense in context to this game raaaaaaaaah

[junior oyster]

What good would more es recharge do for you if you die?

Also ngl but those chests feel like a scam but I'm dumb lol

[fierce moth]

Make sense

Oh but I need lightning & fire resistance on body armour now

lol I don't know what can I watch but this angle is amazing (I even can look into the distance)

Just failed at a gameble :(

[twilit mountain]

Kirra. Golden rule. Never gamble on something if you can't replace it.

[desert jasper]

Ah, back home

[jovial bane]

second funniest streamers drama farm wise for me

[abstract karma]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-TLudYZ3ps

And your rewards ? Next years 40% cut of manufacturing which increase pricese and decrease quality of (if even) of next generation of graphic cards

[desert jasper]

Guess it's time to go & bash my head at the wayvard spear boss again

[fierce moth]

......... This boss can summon spirits. Too horrible

Taste good but manago flavour mean it will a bit overwhelming on sweetness and it's monotonous on later of flavour but the lower limit isn't bad because of juice and sugar

(330ml this time)

..... The leap on waystone tiers are huge in vaal temple. I have t4 maps only, but it give me t7 maps

[fierce moth]

After the patch. hhhhhhhhhh

First time to see rewards are more poor after the patch...

All loots GGG gave me for slain the architect

[jovial bane]

first time ? heh

I remember Lake league nerfing loot drop despite not mentioning it in the manifesto

[twilit mountain]

Added to list of mobs that don't render for me: Trenches map boss

[desert jasper]

next lvl I get these

[twilit mountain]

Oh that's funny

[desert jasper]

Should work well with the plants

Also bought this staff
A "small" boost from lifesprig :^)

[twilit mountain]

This game drops so little loot that I'm still palying without a filter in T10 maps

[lofty wren]

No loot in a genre defined by the loot is certainly a design choice xd

[fierce moth]

All maps I own now... The sustainability of maps is odd

yes loots are pretty ugly... Survive in poor loots is a hard thing so play poe 2 is like doing chores more and more

[desert jasper]

I have a lootfilter but it.. somehow doesn't filter anything in the campaign

[twilit mountain]

Leveling settings, pretty sure it's automatically on if you don't turn it off

[fierce moth]

I just use neversink's filter from last league... Work well

[sand wigeon]

I think we should remove loot from ARPG's. Just levels and skills now.

[fierce moth]

but how are you upgrade your gears without loots 🤔

[sand wigeon]

In fact, remove skills and levelling, just make it a free choice sandbox

[sand wigeon]

I'm joking

[fierce moth]

I think GGG think the same thing with you

0.2 have been ruined by poor loots. It's come back again...

Why GGG just prohibit players be flooded by loots 🫠

[lofty wren]

Because jonathan's vision is no fun allowed

they even brought that vision to poe1 now so ig this is just what GGG wants now

[twilit mountain]

To be clear, I don't think "flooding with loot" is good either, at least not without significant investment in your mapping strategy.

[abstract karma]

Finally stupid antivirus.. Classic Diablo II installed

[lofty wren]

in a game with trade you can't have the game flooded with loot for free but the game needs to feel rewarding at a base level

currently it doesn't

it's funny though because I have the opposite complaint about LE, there's too much loot after they added the factions xd so there's definitely a middle ground to find to make loot feel good

[twilit mountain]

Mm. Your rewards should scale with your investment and progress, at a baseline it should be enough to facilitate consistent upgrading and scaling into the ability to invest. That's where the failure lies at the moment imo.

[fierce moth]

To be more accurate, le's loots are overwhelming because shards are too much

No idea what can I do with extra shards and golds

[twilit mountain]

No, that one's just a you issue

[lofty wren]

yeah idk about the shards thing haha

[jovial bane]

once you remove buttons to attack that's just vampire survivors

[junior oyster]

And I love it

[hot crown]

"Levels and skills" is pretty much what Heretical looks like, but that's a roguelite and it still has loot... hmm.

[jade jackal]

The idea of level-based progression in combat isn't that bad, and could be a very cool side-mode in traditional ARPGs imo

I think that all the arena-horde survival games layed a pretty good foundation

[twilit mountain]

👍 money

[sudden anchor]

@jovial bane I get you. If someone made art and AI made art, both are randomly the same endresult, why would it matter for me taking inspiration from the piece by whom it's made?

[twilit mountain]

Homie really jsut came in and necro'd a whole discussion

[sand wigeon]

nobody caaaares

we can oll live togethert

[sudden anchor]

Trying to understand your point.

[desert jasper]

okay

I really, really hate the sekhema trial

it's some of the worst designed shit in the game

[twilit mountain]

You can just call it bad, nobody disagrees

[desert jasper]

Well I'm sure Jonathan in his infinite wisdom would disagree

[twilit mountain]

Nobody to be taken seriously disagrees

If it were just a mechanic in the game I wouldn't give a shit, but it being forced interaction is what makes me immediately put it in the "this absolutely sucks" category

[desert jasper]

Yeah

Like I made it to the floor 3 boss... with 190 honor
what do you do with 190 honor? nothing, literally any kind of hit ends it

[fierce moth]

lol

[sudden anchor]

I care about art. I am an artist myself, so please explain.

[fierce moth]

I will think this meme at first if anyone said AI art

This artist just quite famous because of this warm mistake

lol we have another difficult angle too

[jade jackal]

oh no...

[sand wigeon]

this conversation is stupid and keeps happening over and over and everybody thinks they're right

[maiden widget]

And it's fun - I hope they keep going into the same direction

[desert jasper]

I wonder who at GGG decided that yes, let's put in sanctum, ultimatum and then trial of the ancestors for the ascendancies
This is totally a good idea
players will love it

[twilit mountain]

I betcha it starts with a J

[desert jasper]

I wouldn't be surprised

I bet he hasn't even done any of them

[fierce moth]

Six waves of enemies, to get a unique item which I will never use.

What a fair deal is!

"excellent unique strongbox" +1

[fierce moth]

how many exalted orbs you get by sold that?

[twilit mountain]

7div

Spent 6 of em

[jovial bane]

I wish I could talk, but ER has really bad Internet connection thanks to building being tall lol

[jovial bane]

in tldr it's a real hot topic with different opinions

[junior oyster]

Ngl don't want to get into this topic but as someone not interested in art all that much, I don't think I care where the art comes from as long as it looks cool

[twilit mountain]

If you're not interested you have no stake and therefore no weight in the discussion.

[sand wigeon]

"I have no feelings or opinions on this very controversial discussion, so let me take a side, because my opinion matters a whole lot, right?"

[fierce moth]

Why my game just don't give anything valuable so my progress can be more simple :(

[jovial bane]

because they want those "player engagement" metrics

[twilit mountain]

Lol.

[jovial bane]

I might be nuts, but I like Trials of the Sekhema. I just hate how it's done in the endgame, so after you beat Zarokh

[fierce moth]

Just killed a boss in a t5 map

[jovial bane]

But I also hate Ultimatum. I hope the third trial will be way more fun, because they chose pretty much close to two worst mechanics they could.

[twilit mountain]

TOTA is one of the worst received mechanics in the entire history of PoE 👍

[jovial bane]

I think it's better than sanctum ... which is not telling much

[twilit mountain]

Sanctum actually is a fairly loved mechanic

The reason Sekhema is disliked so much is because it's forced

[jovial bane]

interesting

yeah, makes sense. I mean you could do Ultimatum instead ... but that requires doing ultimatum. And for some god forsaken reason the level requirement for ascendancy 3 is 10 levels higher on ultimatum

[maiden widget]

its a roguelite minus any actual player progression or positive boons, idk id rather play hades or hades 2 or any other roguelite

[jovial bane]

ah yes, give me the 7 trials stones in maps. This crap is useless

[junior oyster]

True that

[twilit mountain]

The entire reason why ascending is received so, so poorly in PoE2 is because instead of a simple, striaghtforward, even leveled system for it, we have these janky, "risk-reward" mechanics that were made to be optional and modifiable in the game they were in prior.

[jovial bane]

not wrong

[maiden widget]

its also funny when your nodes barely matter and ggg wants you to spend an hour on getting one

[junior oyster]

And yet I'd 100% choose ultimatum as a solo ascension option over kekhema

[maiden widget]

which could be completely ruined by one rare mob spawning wrong

[jovial bane]

what mechanic from PoE 1 could be added to complete the hate trifecta ? I think the tower defense one lmao

[twilit mountain]

Gods I wish mine didn't matter, they're actually massive for me

[junior oyster]

Lab

[twilit mountain]

Blight is one of the most beloved PoE1 mechanics

[junior oyster]

Oh for hatred

Tota then

[maiden widget]

poe2 made me love lab

[junior oyster]

I hated tota

[maiden widget]

and that says something about poe2

[junior oyster]

I've always loved lab

[junior oyster]

The only other game where I love tower defence in is monster train lol.

[twilit mountain]

I have lab farmed before. It is so much less miserable than Sekhema farming. Hell, during Phrecia I farmed like 4 mirrors in value off Sanctum and it was soooooo much better than Sekhema has eve been

[junior oyster]

Poe did tower defence really nicely

[maiden widget]

i liked arpg+td combo in death trap

but they made towers actually matter instead of getting the typical lukewarm ggg genre mix

[jovial bane]

I think the biggest problen with trials of the sekhema is the fact it has 4 tiers

4th trial is such a slog

[maiden widget]

it just kills me inside when you randomly get one of those rares with crit + storm + random other dmg mob that immediately evaporates your "hp" and you get to do the last hour again

[jovial bane]

that too, in fact I think multihit monsters like the scarab jars are such bs

[twilit mountain]

Speaking of, off I go to attempt Sekhema

[desert jasper]

Good luck

[twilit mountain]

It has been over 20 minutes and I'm still not done

This is just a three floor

fml

[fierce moth]

Last 3 maps. My journey of this league is over if I can't get any exalted orbs back.

[abstract karma]

you finish this version fast 😄 not even reaching T15

[twilit mountain]

Kirra

Why are you 6modding yellow maps

No wonder you're broke

[fierce moth]

I don't want this case too

[twilit mountain]

I run my maps 4 mods. That's it.

[abstract karma]

in Poe franchise nothing is free.. but rewards always comes from max things so mid tier maps is waste

[obtuse rune]

58% more magic monsters? no thanks 😭

[fierce moth]

Because I just want more currencies like exalted orbs or divine orbs

Of course, more divines come from rare loots

[twilit mountain]

Kirra

They're yellows

You're not going to make currency like that in yellows

Higher map tiers have inherently better drops

You are wasting your money

[fierce moth]

I'm playing poe 2 in a "kil ling myself" way

[fierce moth]

I have no idea how to get higher tiers tbh. I just know corrupted map will give me altas points

[twilit mountain]

Do maps with the big yelliow skull, boss has a high chance to drop maps of 1 tier higher

[obtuse rune]

Get them better maps and I hope you get the better loooots

I've not had much time to play but I'm at the end of Act 3 waitin to go into Act 4. Trying out Druid and finally unlocked the Apocalypse skill.... for funsies. Don't know what I should use to build up my glory though because I've been werewolf'in and I can't build glory up for this skill with my werewolf abilities? correct me if I'm wrong

[fierce moth]

...I get higher tiers by 3 in 1

[jovial bane]

I think there was a gem that makes skills cost glory

OH MB, you mean generator

[hot crown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ftWrffuAUc
For @obtuse rune, but everyone else is very much encouraged to listen to this track too. It's... I can't even find proper words for how beautiful it is.

Context: Wuthering Waves 2.8

[obtuse rune]

OH heck yeah. Love WuWa

[fierce moth]

Spent a rare t7 waystone and just open the map but I'm tired...

💤

[obtuse rune]

Yeah this theme is super chill.

[fierce moth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ok-apLFeAsk
I listen this soundtrack the most for background music when I want to take a nap

[hot crown]

A KINDRED SOUL
NO WAY
xD

[obtuse rune]

Yeah, I had Waking of a World on repeat...for a very very very long time.

[jovial bane]

I'd play WuWa, but I fear that would be too many gacha

[obtuse rune]

Spurts come and go but I'm all for pain by playing ARPGs and gacha

[jovial bane]

So I just wait for Endfield

[obtuse rune]

Endfield looks really good. Where Winds Meet has my attention right now. This break will give me time to play some PoE2 and MHW

[jovial bane]

Chaos Zero Nightmare captured me for a bit too, basically Slay the Spire gacha, but also Darkest Dungeon style stress

[hot crown]

What about Saving Light? 🙂

Or Where Wind Whispers? 🙂

[hot crown]

You don't even have to mind the gacha aspect, the game itself is nothing short of AAA quality on its own. 🙂

It's cinematic AF, especially the latest 2.8.

[obtuse rune]

yeah, I can only hold so much gacha and RNG in my games otherwise I'm better off playing League or Elden Ring...or something...

[jovial bane]

that's the problem, it would hook me lol

[obtuse rune]

Is that really a problem?

[jovial bane]

I did try PGR, their previous game. It has genuinely good DMC-style combat

[obtuse rune]

PGR was great. Hated it was mobile only at the time but the soundtrack was also on another level.

[hot crown]

Like, legit, you can just treat it as yet another live-service game with actually great pretty much everything down to how goddamn charismatic (and impactful) both MCs are. 🙂

PGR's OST, huh. 🙂 Vanguard...

I have no idea if Pioneer Podcast has anything to do with Vanguard, but wuwa's OST from 1.1 onwards has been consistently improving from one album to the next.

Oh, btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY_XaRncFcg

Another majestic piece.

[jovial bane]

Arknights soundtrack is good as well

They pretty much do all genres of music

[hot crown]

Kuro made a killer move by purchasing the right to use A Fairy Tale by Yuria Miyazono in their iconic Ragunna region introduction scene. ❤️

[obtuse rune]

I love to hear this. Very much. Alot of these games have bangers of an OST.

[hot crown]

...ok, being an auditory person is pretty much both a blessing and a curse for me 😂

The Cherry Blossoms We Saw That Day (the first one I linked) insists on triggering the waterworks, I can't handle it 😄

[obtuse rune]

Some songs have that effect. i get it 100%

[hot crown]

Honestly? Dancing Through Fantasies had me straight up sobbing for a good half an hour.

And for a good reason too.

Not just the song being absolutely beautiful, but the theme hit me right where it wasn't supposed to hurt but did anyway.

Wuwa is legit the only game so far that ruined me to this extent. 🙂

Guess the "not so stoic" trope does apply to me after all xD

(special mention goes to Encore's companion quest, that one broke me for two-something hours)

Another one: Tangled Flower, same album as The Cherry Blossoms We Saw That Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_sgKwvIfc8
(actual in-game footage, btw)

[jovial bane]

one thing I really like what hypegryph does (so endfield will probably have the same) is that highest rarity units have their own theme track

https://youtu.be/SKWtEP_fjOI?si=dyCby39dSZJzRbDC

and they wary in style

[obtuse rune]

First off, this song is pretty

Secondly, the visuals are BEAUTIFUL for this

[hot crown]

I know, right? 🙂 2.8 is absolutely phenomenal.

[obtuse rune]

Like the cuts using game was really well done.

[jovial bane]

oh damn it is

[obtuse rune]

I also know this because I have a multitude of gacha friends who remind me of how good WuWa is 😆

[hot crown]

I'm so happy that my laptop can handle it in its ultra quality glory. 🙂

No raytracing though (I keep it off because it absolutely murders my RTX3060 xD), but I can imagine how furthermore stunning the visuals would be, reflections and all.

[jovial bane]

raytracing is a waste of computing power IMHO

[hot crown]

I agree.

"ai" is worse by orders upon orders of magnitude tho 😛

[jovial bane]

in terms of requiring computing power ? I don't know tbh

[hot crown]

You should. 🙂 Every goddamn datacenter and their powerbanks are DEVOURING all the resources available.

[jovial bane]

and it depends on what kind of "AI" we are talking about, gen "AI" definitely the most

[hot crown]

RAM shortages, GPU shortages, SSD component shortages, etc.

The ongoing fad specifically.

[jovial bane]

probably will last a while, sadly

[hot crown]

I thought mining would be the worst. I was giga wrong.

[jovial bane]

the shortage I mean

I'd have to look into it, but it's a wild claim that it uses more power than mining.
I mean I can believe that, just not outright lol

[abstract karma]

era of cloud OS paying 100$ for month to just search in google

[hot crown]

Anyway, back to music: there's a short (sadly) series of "behind the scenes" videos showing the orchestra at work recording some pieces (namely The Beginning Of Our Story, Onward When You Wake, Where Wind Whispers, and Wind-Kissed Haven; the latter two are combined here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_nCoNi6-Ko). The flautist on this specific video looks suspiciously similar to Hideo Kojima. xD

[jovial bane]

he indeed does xD

[hot crown]

To add hilarity to the mix, MC's Japanese voice actor, Toshiki Masuda, is the literal embodiment of his character. xD

Not only he looks EXACTLY like male Rover (effortless charisma included), he's even quite an avid+experienced+competitive+completionist wuwa player himself. 🙂

[jovial bane]

I think this theme you might like https://youtu.be/6BL_kNVBZGs?si=Ft1Y4zaTCTIYOWG9

That's hilarious.

[hot crown]

There's also a vtuber over there, Raraka Sera. She's HEAD OVER HEELS for both. xD

[jovial bane]

xD

[hot crown]

"number one m!Rover glazer" she's called for... multiple reasons xD

(the more exact word, per quote, has been denied by this server's automod apparently)

[obtuse rune]

o welp..

That tune reminds me how I felt hearing Polumnia and Absolutio for the first time from Genshin

One of those "You had to be there" feels

[hot crown]

More OSTs:
• O Sun, Witness My Name - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOjaKzKKb-g
• Bury Me In Sunlight - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AQNLkx19dY
• Windswept Watch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfXxNos4CM

(in-game footage included in the former two videos)

[fierce moth]

You closed the ticket?

[obtuse rune]

Closed what?

[fierce moth]

Oh... Message received, not close ticket.

My brain still awakening from the nap sorry

Van is busy at his work 0.5h ago

[obtuse rune]

All good. 😉

[junior oyster]

I'm not sure if similar but Ori and the blind forest

When you clear the tree

And get the achievement lol

Lol wth I thought it was a random non-Sonic channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOMK3seoyu0

[obtuse rune]

I will say Sonic Racing has provided a MULTITUDE of salt and laughs

That is a great game

slim, but never zero

[desert jasper]

I've never played a sonic game

[junior oyster]

I can't say I feel the same way tbqh. I mainly played offline trophy mode

And that gave me a lot of clutch moments as I tried to get all trophies in super sonic mode

Kinda gave up on mirror sonic mode though

Waaay too confusing for me lol

[obtuse rune]

I've yet to play mirror mode myself.
There are many different kinds of sonic games. Like Mario..

[junior oyster]

Aside from the price I think sonic racing is worth it

It's practically my first racing game in a very long time

Last time I played mario kart deluxe was something like 7-8 years ago probably

[obtuse rune]

Ah. Well personally, Sonic isn't locked to Nintendo only and thats a win for me

[junior oyster]

Agreed

[fierce moth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZF0LLKmFfsI
Just listened the beginning but I can't wait to share Hawg's opinions because his problems are my problems

Support gems please!
Jeweller's orbs please!
Exalted orbs please!

Damn top 3 items I lacked the most.

[obtuse rune]

I feel as if I stay needing support gems when trying out build ideas and things

[fierce moth]

Maybe the experience from the last league is quite good so it show how terrible experience from the latest league is

....... No winner in le and poe 2. Both of them always make mistakes when they're becoming better

[junior oyster]

Wasn't last league kinda bad until they patched it?

[warped wren]

Not that different, just that we functionally have no league mechanic

Major loss is higher end crafting

[twilit mountain]

For PoE2? Not really. It was pretty alright, just kinda rippy.

[junior oyster]

D4 on other hand pulling out a paladin lol

[fierce moth]

My experience in abyssal league is quite good and smooth...Compare with vaal temple league

[sand wigeon]

D4 has always been good

[twilit mountain]

D4 goes way harder than people give it credit for

Next season brings a skill tree revamp for it too, very excited

[junior oyster]

Nah I'm not even a fan of pala (never played it much in d2) but even I was hyped ah with that trailer

I made my pala but I just need to get the motivation to play d4

[jade jackal]

Blizzard improved the Paladin toolkit by enabling themselves to be inspired by how D3 devs needed a fresher kit

[twilit mountain]

I will be back on D4, just need change of pace. Pit grinding changes a gal

[junior oyster]

Pits are like rifts right?

[fierce moth]

Damn the same. Magic need 5-6 times. Rare? 15+ times at least.

[twilit mountain]

Yeah pretty similar

[jade jackal]

Pit pushing is just a part of the rotation now, its not something people grind monotonously

[junior oyster]

Can you do pits from the get go or still need those keys or w/e was required?

[twilit mountain]

No keys needed

[jade jackal]

Never have i found myself doing so many differrent activities at once

[twilit mountain]

Just gotta unlock it per season

[junior oyster]

I see

That actually gives me a little more motivation

[fierce moth]

Loot? A magic hammer or mace. And a bit gold, that's all. From rare enemies, yes

[warped wren]

Why don't you go see a youtube video or two on how to build an EDC Lich...

[junior oyster]

Also didn't they make it so you can kill bosses even when they have a non-damageable phase or something?

[twilit mountain]

The tiers are actually pretty noticeable too, I stopped for the time being at like 80, shit hits hard

[jade jackal]

They smoothed out phase transitions

[warped wren]

Like if you're getting shafted by yellow map mobs you're clearly doing some things majorly wrong

[jade jackal]

you dont have to wait for animations as long, you can down them all if you can

[junior oyster]

Yea last league in poe2 I was almost one-shotting bosses on LA deadeye

[twilit mountain]

Phase transitions have been smoothened out and if you can deal enough damage you can bypass the shield/DR they get yeah

[sand wigeon]

This Yellow Redbull is mid af

[junior oyster]

Damn I wish poe did the same lol

[twilit mountain]

real

[jade jackal]

boss shield is counted out of total HP

[twilit mountain]

All my homies hate Sirus

[jade jackal]

It doesnt require fresh hits

[junior oyster]

Forget that even the pirate dude

Like why does he have to have a shield when I halve his hp lol

[warped wren]

Don't forget Yapper Shaper

[jade jackal]

shield state includes added resistances

[twilit mountain]

I wish I knew my DPS in PoE2 rn. Things die that's all I know

[twilit mountain]

Shaper sucks, Uber Elder though I quite like

[warped wren]

UE is a fabulous fight

[junior oyster]

The worst boss for me is Maven