📚┃off-topic

[timid iron]

and pushing some changes 8hrs after interview is goated move

plus their explained their vision with fair argument and were open for changes and discussion

[pine basalt]

POE 2 is saved gogogo loot those items !

[sweet blade]

Can someone summarize the changes?

[crisp onyx]

first i wanted to say blues are not exciting, but then i saw there is scroll of wisom highlighted too

[sweet blade]

Hmmm...

[hollow coral]

Lmao, I'm getting the fat MTX LE bundle if Steam blesses the refund

[feral plover]

The last news is heading in the right direction meaning some kind of compromise and understanding of the complaints

It's not a miracle but a first step rather

[sweet blade]

Presumably Jon and Mark had a very difficult conversation afterwards.

[hollow coral]

Yesterday's interview was pretty painful to watch

Since Jonathan thinks the game is fun, I don't know what he's playing then

[sweet blade]

Still pretty standard GGG two-step, but we will see how it develops.

[feral plover]

And with the rest of the team ^^ having two figureheads tends to make the other staff fade in the background

[sweet blade]

Not sure if that's good or bad.

[hollow coral]

You want to shield your devs from all the online backlash, that way they can work on the game to fix it

[vivid axle]

Their statements about how "gear gives you the stats, and the tree multiplies it" were so baffling to me.

Isn't that completely backwards? Your tree is guaranteed, gear is not. If you don't get the gear you're multiplying nothing.

[hollow coral]

Well, Jonathan thinks that dragging all the trash rares to town to dismantle for shards is engaging gameplay on your campaign playthrough

Why get good drops if you can spend 5 minutes of every hour hauling stuff back and forth to get few orbs, then you can use the said drops to brick a good base

Easy crafting

[fierce moth]

too sleepy when I listen dev streams and fall asleep for 1h

On the other hand, Tri is poor

[last cedar]

I believe tri joined this discord yesterday 😂

[fierce moth]

No

He even earlier than me

I can feel he was very enjoy this stream, just... You know, GGG is good at stealing the influence EHG suppose to get

[sweet blade]

GGG wants power to be more item-focused, so that you grind longer. It is certainly a way to lengthen the treadmill.

Tri did pop into at least General last night.

[fierce moth]

I welcome any streamers to join le's hype anyways

[sweet blade]

More is better, yes.

[fierce moth]

check out double interviews are quite spirit-consuming exactly

wait, I'm surprised Tri don't join in poe server since he's a big fan of poe 2. Interesting

[last cedar]

Prob get destroyed in there

They toxic in there

[fierce moth]

I always have a familiar feeling when I listen Karv speaking his thinking in English. Not sure which word to speak and how to pronoun a word

[last cedar]

Im also rewatching the interview this is a classic

Yeah this dude ziz stood on business

[timid iron]

i think they said that there are different ways people see and play games and their ultimate goal is to make game feel good for everyone idk if thats possible

[hollow coral]

They kinda do seem to be trying to double dip into PoE1 audience

But PoE2 is so not like PoE1 I'm not sure it's possible

The original idea of having PoE1 AND PoE2 developed at the same time was good, but now it's pretty waffled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqajM7gCcE

The books are so good!

[crisp onyx]

if every consecutive patch will be like last one its def possible

[crisp onyx]

https://youtu.be/xoENsKR6rXM

[fierce moth]

I can't believe the watcher will become my friend... It just too odd. I'm required to kill them in my prophecies but they still willing to be my friend...!?

[sweet blade]

I wonder how many people know that most distributions in the world are not normal distributions.

Oh, has PoE2 hit mostly negative yet?

[junior oyster]

It's mixed

For recent reviews that is

[sweet blade]

K, it was at 40% last night, so it's still clinging to that.

[fierce moth]

that's wonderful if le can like poe 2 on top sellers.

yin and yang, world is good when it's balanced.

[junior oyster]

I hate when I choose the wrong evil for terraria lol

[fierce moth]

with Ziz's interview, I don't think poe 2 will hit most negative because GGG did an interview to say what are they cooking now to reduce angry mood from players.

poe player base still huge.

[junior oyster]

Eh some players are just over dramatic

[past breach]

They are caving too much, changing too much too fast, swinging both ways too quick I don't like it. It's unstable

[sweet blade]

My issue is that they genuinely do not seem to understand how to implement their Vision. Because this ain't it.

[ebon meadow]

Got my pc still having after work beer than installing back everything again

Thing is so quiet it's impressive what I m gonna have as white noise to sleep

[fierce moth]

Le's subreddit have lots of players but a post will not attract them to do upvotes without relevant topics of Poe 2's help... It's upsetting.

In Poe 2's subreddit, Poe 2 only memes always get the most gaslighting but le only memes never reach that amounts on upvotes

Glad to see you own a new PC!

I found off topic is the channel I'm actively the most since time is passing.

... That's a complicated feeling.

[past breach]

Fans that sit on your floor or desk are perfect for white noise

[teal flame]

Honestly, it's fine. LE is a much newer game with a smaller following. But as they do big patches like season 2, they'll continue to get a bigger audience.

[ebon meadow]

Don't really mind Reddit for neither Kirra

It's like a circus there's people there that don't even play

[ebon meadow]

Yea no they vertically at front the freaking things don't make noise at al lol I m gonna have to get something to listen to when sleep I can't sleep without slight noise or a video or a stream random noise keep me awake

[teal flame]

Reddit generally represents AT MOST 10% of the player base of a game.

[ebon meadow]

Since things happen on Reddit and ggg stoped comunicating

[teal flame]

Yeah, which is too bad. Gamers are too toxic for the devs to directly interact with them most of the time.

Look at how fast they've whiplashed on ".2 bad" and "vision good" after the latest upcoming patch stuff.

[past breach]

And yet GGG is listening to the whiners. Way too much

[ebon meadow]

Feedback is still feedback

And regarding Reddit one thing is shit on the game another is doing it personally to Devs

Never stack a dev personally there is no reason one person don't screw up all project even a CEO

[sweet blade]

I have personal experience otherwise, but in general I would agree with you.

[sweet blade]

I think this is too much of a blanket statement. Once a game's audience becomes large enough, the subsection of that audience that is called 'toxic' will be large enough to have an impact.

[teal flame]

Fair, though that's a pretty semantic difference.

[sweet blade]

Not really. I guess it's my way of saying that if LE were as big as PoE2, we'd have toxic elements as well

[teal flame]

This is the thing, the feedback that ziz provided in the interview was the same thing that everyone has been saying, and look how fast they can actually fix those things.

[ivory swift]

Yeah if LE ever gets big, say goodbye to the public "ask the devs" channel

[sweet blade]

Yeah, the speed of the change was... very enlightening. So now we know that it wasn't because they couldn't. But because you wouldn't. Doesn't have to sway anyone, but it's a big data point.

[teal flame]

Yeah, it's tough though. They can't be that open with the community at large because of general toxicity but the commmunity does provide valuable feedback on the feel of the game.

[fierce moth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVRADmjzsss

Hold on, interesting to look back to gameplay showcase of poe 2 in 4 years ago xd
holy, this game spent 4+ years to cook but... Amazing to see how bad the actual game experience it bring.

[ebon meadow]

They do listen to us a lot and few of them are probably even in this chat

I know there's few in BPL chat and people that participate in events like guantlet and BPL are usually people with a loooot of exp

[sweet blade]

Most game companies are very bad at signal differentiation. Either consciously or not.

[sweet blade]

I did one BPL and wanted to help run it with analytics and stuff.

[fierce moth]

I never know poe 2 until GGG announce the ea of poe 2 is lived on November

[ebon meadow]

If they feeling something wrong that casual and new players will feel it x100 times

[sweet blade]

The very first inklings of PoE2 started about 10 years ago, I believe GGG said.

[fierce moth]

😅 Alright even big companies like GGG, they still needs tons of time to cook these epic environmental design.

[sweet blade]

Big companies do not necessarily have an advantage over small companies. Too few people concern themselves with diseconomies of scale.

[ebon meadow]

There's a thing that the game is in EA but not all of us thing that way ,we think it's the actual thing that will just get content added on top but will not rest on a release

Ggg is very green on being a big company to be fare like they started with 5 people in a flat to

[sweet blade]

We can argue back and forth on EA vs. Release, but I can say that PoE1 has had changes at LEAST this sweeping twice, and they do major balance shifts every league. So it's not a surprise that so many people treat it that way.

[ebon meadow]

Yes they grown a lot them selfs then tencent bought shares and there's another version of the game in Asia but still thats in what 25 years circle

[sweet blade]

Heh. I know a consultancy whose mission was to become the 'largest consultancy in its field in the world'. I was like... 'uh, do we care about being good?'

[ebon meadow]

Money means more Devs for them with a bit awkward laws on hiring

Chris made good decision, we did got a better game

And we have another one to shit on today so it's a win for everyone

If they can make the game better for me great of they can't I still have Poe 1 and LE plenty of content a year

[fierce moth]

hah wait a moment, I remind of something by the palace terrain suddenly... Doesn't these assets appeared in highland too? Xd... Textures and colours are changed, add water simulation shader, place many palm trees and bushes, ok a new map is done hhhhh

[sweet blade]

Isn't this just smart use of assets?

[fierce moth]

lol I never discover this trick in poe 2 is the issue

[junior oyster]

It's kinda normal in games

It's same with enemies

[fierce moth]

GGG is smart, the time gap between players available to play both of them is super super long so it reduce lots of chances for players discovered that hhhh

[sweet blade]

GGG has made no secret that they have done this for a decade.

Nor should they, IMO.

[fierce moth]

Tons of another repeat maps let us forget these original assets so we will think highland is 100% new

[sweet blade]

No one is CLAIMING that they're new.

[junior oyster]

Honestly you are probably one of few people who care about the environment

All I care about is having a good map and killing lots of mobs

[sweet blade]

I do notice, but in PoE1 at least, there's an in-game lore justification why map tilesets come from the campaign. 🙂

[junior oyster]

That's just a form of plot armour but yea

[fierce moth]

👀 (because the map I listed includes complicated architecture external facades and that's my tea so...)

[sweet blade]

I realize you do art in that way, but one reason that GGG has been able to maintain a frankly very impressive release schedule with PoE1 is exactly this reuse of assets.

[fierce moth]

I never know reuse assets for environmental design is the common rule in game developments because le is the only game I played which applied this rule xd

Too young. Yeah

[sweet blade]

It typically is in procedurally-generated games.

[fierce moth]

Well the condition is you have played many many procedurally-generated games xd

[sweet blade]

Well, another way is if you worked in this space.

[glass dune]

So

PoE2

And PoE1

I haven't played the latter in a while. And I have not played the former at all. And the more I hear, the less excited I am to get into the former, or go back to the latter.

[last cedar]

i remember jonathan saying poe 1 will have WASD after they port over all the micotransaction and stuff but thats going be a WHILE THO

[sweet blade]

chuckles Uh-huh.

[last cedar]

wasd in 10 years

poe 1 will barely get updates at the time lmao

[glass dune]

Like I do not dislike PoE with every fiber of my being, but the only reason I even played PoE was, I wanted to play "this type of game".

[sweet blade]

That's going to have its own issues, though... if PoE prioritizes MTX importation into PoE2 over balancing it... it doesn't look good.

[glass dune]

But I'll be honest, while PoE scratched an itch it also caused me pain.

[last cedar]

they calling jonathan the "visionary"

[glass dune]

I mean I have problems with Chris too, but it's clear that something changed after he left.

[sweet blade]

Maybe I should call him Vedrfolnir. 😉

[glass dune]

For the worse, I mean.

I get this impression that they have gotten more rigid after Chris's departure, not less.

Please correct or update me if I'm mistaken.

[last cedar]

Whats was chris's "Vison"

[sweet blade]

Ostensibly, maintaining a stable company.

[glass dune]

But am I right? Wrong? Somewhere inbetween?

[sweet blade]

@last cedar I'm sure that's GGG's plan at this point.

[last cedar]

Bro yeah they been doing alot improvements patch after patch

let see what they can cook

the interview might have inspired them?

[sweet blade]

Mm, I'd be happier if I thought it was in furtherance of their Vision, but with the exception of the fast-monster thing, it looks like they're going away from it.

[sweet blade]

'inspire' is not the word I would use in this case. 😉 More like 'put the fear of God into them'.

[last cedar]

i was watching that interview i guess he think its dumb to slow them down or players will avoid fighting them... HUH

[sweet blade]

If someone like Ziz is going to be THAT confrontational....

[sweet blade]

Ummmm... this coming from the same people who tell you that if your build has trouble with a rare you should just bypass it?

Also... less mobs killed, less loot... sounds like a fair trade?

[last cedar]

The vision is so dumb im telling you

[sweet blade]

The Vision itself is actually not bad. They have no clear path to realizing the Vision, though.

It's very clear that if your mobs act like they're in PoE1, you can't have their Vision. It doesn't matter what you give the players.

And that's just one issue.

[last cedar]

I want to see the vision when its complete then ill admit i was wrong

they will figure it out

need more dudes like ziz to put it in their head the way they doing it isnt the right way

[sweet blade]

I'm not sure Ziz can see it, either. Ziz, IMO, is likely to push them towards PoE1.

[sweet blade]

I am not at all assured that they will.

[last cedar]

idk if poe 1 will get any updates for a while they too busy with poe 2

[sweet blade]

They're missing some very important, very foundational concepts.

[last cedar]

Man if they dont figure out the business will fail

[sweet blade]

I meant that Ziz will push them towards making PoE2 more like PoE1.

[sweet blade]

I agree.

[last cedar]

Ziz a poe 1 lord of course

he was asking some poe 1 questions near the end

[sweet blade]

Well, any PoE streamer is going to want to know when their revenue is going to pick up again. 😉

[glass dune]

But has GGG gotten more rigid after Chris's departure?

[last cedar]

😂

GGG is just confused on the vision

Well maybe as the players we dont understand their vision.............

[sweet blade]

I still maintain it's how to achieve the vision, rather than the vision itself.

[sweet blade]

They may not, but players definitely understand when they're not having fun. 🙂

[glass dune]

I mean for EHG their vision seems to mutate over time through community input.

[last cedar]

Anything fun gets nerfed to the ground sad

lighting spear amazons you are next

[sweet blade]

Yeah, not sure what's up with devs deciding that fun is bad.

[glass dune]

Well, like, to me GGG have always been like these people who were like

We decide what is fun.

Which is why loot was always such a nightmare for me.

Because they need me to "consider every piece of loot" or some jazz.

I am not even opposed to the concept of a loot filter (I love the loot filter in LE), however, the one in PoE does not work.

[last cedar]

im still annoyed they havent fixed the loot jonthan says he plays poe 2 but i dont think we playing the same game

[sweet blade]

I am not surprised. And highly annoyed. In fact, the RNG of power progression is the root of my issues with the game.

[last cedar]

bro if im not getting loot how am suppose to progress

[sweet blade]

Oh, and I fully believe Jonathan is either lying or not playing on the same level field as us (e.g., using dev commands to create a build to test a specific environment).

[sweet blade]

Grind until you get it, seems to be the only option.

[teal flame]

I really think it's not that they think fun is bad, it's that they don't realize the impact that their vision is having on what players actually consider fun

[sweet blade]

Or, IOW, they have a different defintion of fun. 🙂

[last cedar]

They dont know what is fun

[teal flame]

And also, their games are so full of spaghetti that they make changes intended to target one area of the game, but it has effects on a lot more areas than they think it will

[sweet blade]

And people always get on me for insisting on definitions of terms. 🙂

[sweet blade]

They know what's fun for them.

[teal flame]

Like if you look at their hotfixes, a lot of them include some version of "this change affected a lot more areas of the game than we thought it would"

[last cedar]

hire some real beta tests GGG

stop using us as testers

[sweet blade]

Well... we've talked about QA, have we not? 🙂

[last cedar]

mods timed me out when i said they need fire the head of QA for this crappy update sad

[teal flame]

Yeah, it's very possible that they don't have "fresh playthrough of every build archetype" on their release checklist 😝

Or that they at least don't have a good system for targeting testing around specific changes, etc etc

Game dev is actually really hard to test properly

[sweet blade]

Mm... it shouldn't be that much harder than other software... though ABMs ALWAYS are notoriously hard to test.

[teal flame]

You'd think. But most other non-game programs are a system entirely focused on one goal. But with games it's 15 systems in a trenchcoat, so unintended interactions are a LOT more common

[sweet blade]

Basically, when you have any program where you expect to get emergent properties at the system level, it's more or less impossible to write useful tests.

And most games basically fall under this paradigm.

[teal flame]

And also, the end goal of games is "fun" which is hella subjective and a lot harder to deal with.

Measuring 'success' for a game release has a lot to do with player reception, whereas most non-game programs there's a very clear success criteria to be found.

[maiden widget]

skill scaling should be relatively doable though especially for gem level scaling abilities, i bet nobody tried to take shockwave totems through a1-a3

[sweet blade]

I don't know... I've seen a lot of issues with getting KPIs for the models I generate (for the model, not necessarily the system modeled).

[teal flame]

Well, I'm not saying it's easy for every program. But for games it's always hard

[sweet blade]

I guess. I think devs ask for too much, honestly.

[teal flame]

Ehhh, I dunno. After 13 years in dev and QA, I feel like I've got a decent understanding of things 😝

[glass dune]

You think you do, but you don't.

Clearly GGG knows what the playerbase wants better than the playerbase.

[last cedar]

GGG im sure has a good team of devs dont know how they screwed up

[glass dune]

Management of course.

[sweet blade]

Oh, nothing against QA. It's just that in all my projects, the very first thing people want to cut out V&V (basically QA) because they think I'm exaggerating how long it takes.

[last cedar]

im guessing they had a crazy deadline and had to deliver

[sweet blade]

General rule of thumb for me: It takes as long to validate a model as it does to develop (not design) a model.

[glass dune]

No, I think the heads are just very prideful and know what's right for the game better than everyone else.

[teal flame]

Yeah, I mean we could have an hours long dissertation about understanding and proving the value that testing provides in a product, heh. A lot of people underestimate it because it's hard to articulate how it affects the development process.

[sweet blade]

It is VERY simple (for me at least) to explain the value of validation. To wit: "Your model is worthless unless it's validated." Expand as necessary to not ruffle feathers.

[teal flame]

Yeah, it's simple for us in the testing sphere to articulate, but you first have to get other people to listen to that articulation. So often it's ignored because deadlines and releases are relentless. Unles we raise specific red flags that will impact the release a lot of times, testing will be ignored.

[glass dune]

Also sometimes devs are unwilling (or unable) to play their own game.

[teal flame]

Egos are super common in leadership positions, for sure.

[sweet blade]

Well, my title for most of this was 'VP, Engineering and Data Science'... I was the technical head of the company.

So the issue was convincing the client, but I was fairly good at it. At least to get SOME validation.

[teal flame]

And they wouldn't trust your estimates? Sounds like a them problem

But I can empathize, heh

[sweet blade]

Sure... but I can guarantee you that I backed my employees (they all wore multiple hats, and most did QA) to the hilt.

Have you ever had to validate a model before? 🙂

[glass dune]

I would assume that QA often happens more than you'd think. But I would assume not everything that's reported on by QA actually results in meaningful changes.

[bronze dawn]

there were some things posted by someone whos story is becoming more credible with each shitty release by GGG some time ago

[glass dune]

Am I wrong?

[bronze dawn]

someone claiming to be a GGG employee

[sweet blade]

Oooo, details?

[teal flame]

Can confirm. Especially with rapid release schedules, bugs will get shunted because they aren't high enough priority to fix. In my career, I've had a couple times where I've had significant vindication because there was a bug I pushed for to get fixed that caused BIG problems when it didn't.

[bronze dawn]

i don't think i'm allowed to post any direct links to it here but if you google the term "GGG employee poe2 leaks" you will find it

[sweet blade]

Ah, k, fair.

[teal flame]

Yeah I know the post you're talking about

Best not to discuss here

[bronze dawn]

i was initially doubtful about that post but it seems to be accurate the more time goes on

[sweet blade]

I mean, I have been in the situation where I had to figure out which bugs to handle and which to not. I feel like I mostly got it right.

[bronze dawn]

suffice to say; there are very deep problems within GGG right now

somewhat related to chris' departure

[teal flame]

I feel like it really depends on the relationship between the devs and testers. If the devs trust and have a close relationship with the testers it's usually really good. If not... that's when it can be problematic.

[bronze dawn]

jonathan rogers is the main cause of the problems, from what i can gather

[sweet blade]

Mm, all I can find right now are links about the data breach.

[sweet blade]

Sure. It's just so weird that QA is not appreciated.

[bronze dawn]

GGG employee here (actually).

try googling this (you're looking for a reddit thread from the ARPG subreddit)

[teal flame]

We're getting there. QA is SO much more appreciated now than it used to be when I first got into the industry.

[sweet blade]

My Google Fu is terrible today.

[last cedar]

wait what a GGG member made a reddit post? did they get fired?

[glass dune]

Ok I have read the post.

[sweet blade]

Apparently, it was some time ago.

[glass dune]

It's 4chan

Leakers post on 4chan

[bronze dawn]

it was EA

[last cedar]

intresting

[glass dune]

Of course this makes it impossible to verify the veracity of the post.

[bronze dawn]

the original post was on 4chan yes

[glass dune]

We can only rate these kinds of post in terms of plausibility.

[bronze dawn]

the reddit thread has a particular section that absolutely eviscerated jonathan removed from it

but yes, grains of salt, etc etc

[sweet blade]

Huh, how searchable is 4chan?

[bronze dawn]

extremely not

kind of the point

[sweet blade]

Darn it.

[glass dune]

4chan working the way it does is the reason it works the way it does.

That sounds like a bunch of random words strung together but I wonder if you get what I'm trying to convey.

[bronze dawn]

weirdly it makes perfect sense to me lol

[last cedar]

Hey Alexa give me a tdlr of that 4chan post...

[glass dune]

Anyway

I can believe that a universe exists where everything in this post is true.

[bronze dawn]

check dm

[glass dune]

I cannot confirm whether we are currently living in that universe.

[last cedar]

oh sweet alright

[glass dune]

That make sense?

[bronze dawn]

yeah it does

[sweet blade]

Still can't find it. ><

[glass dune]

I'm reading a copy paste of it on reddit

[last cedar]

send to ulth as well

[bronze dawn]

i'm also not fully convinced on the veracity but the fact that i'm also prepared to believe it based on other factors gives me pause

[sweet blade]

Yeah, it's this feeling.

[last cedar]

dammm yall sure this is legit if it is thats wild

[glass dune]

Like, nothing that is said in the post is entirely in conflict with human nature.

[bronze dawn]

nope

[glass dune]

We're not, that's kind of the point.

[last cedar]

yeah we wont ever know

[bronze dawn]

in any case, the version of reality described in that post is a big part of why chris is no longer with the company, i feel is a likely scenario

[glass dune]

You mean how Chris just has no more passion for the project?

[last cedar]

what was the big reason chis left

[bronze dawn]

mmm among other things

[glass dune]

Speculation

[bronze dawn]

no official statement

it's all yeah just speculation atp

[last cedar]

dam

[sweet blade]

This is... damning.

[bronze dawn]

oh incredibly

[glass dune]

But like, Chris has already made bank. He technically never has to work a day in his life ever again. This means he could have left for literally any reason at all.

[sweet blade]

Did anyone know about the Ascendancy Trials when this post was made? That (so far to me) seems to be the biggest indicator of truth.

[bronze dawn]

personally i think he was just done with jon's shit and decided to take the bag and run before he sunk the ship

[last cedar]

this seems lil believeable

[bronze dawn]

nope

[glass dune]

It is not an unlikely scenario. I'm just saying that he can afford to leave, for literally any reason.

[last cedar]

"Poe2 has taken 6 years but it's actually only had about 3 years dedicated dev time across all that time if I were to guesstimate."

[sweet blade]

That and the Atlas are two clear signs that the person at least had access to this information. Doesn't make the reasoning any more or less true but...

[last cedar]

tf happened to the other 3 years

[bronze dawn]

unclear

[glass dune]

I mean the fact that PoE1 development has literally ground to a halt.

Means someone has been lying.

Like, the fact that someone has lied about something is just a thing that is undeniably true.

[bronze dawn]

yeah, this is why the post has not just died and been forgotten - because the contents of it kept turning out to be accurate

[sweet blade]

Explained in the post?

[glass dune]

Know what I'm saying?

[bronze dawn]

yep

[glass dune]

The promise was that PoE1 and PoE2 were to be developed concurrently.

This has not happened. So clearly all development efforts, at least at this point in time, are on PoE2.

[bronze dawn]

i think that was the plan but they over-scoped and then panicked

[sweet blade]

I almost wish I could read the redacted section. 🙂

[glass dune]

That means it's possible that the reverse can also have been true at points in time.

[bronze dawn]

i did read it once but i can no longer find it - it's absolutely savage

and lines up with the way jons persona is publicly

[glass dune]

That PoE2 development has frequently stalled in order to develop new leagues.

[sweet blade]

Do you think they ever found out who wrote it?

[bronze dawn]

hard to say

[glass dune]

If they did, we would never find out.

[bronze dawn]

mmm

[glass dune]

They wouldn't just be fired, they would be completely silenced.

[last cedar]

chatgpt tdlr version of this post: Overall sentiment: PoE2 has been gutted from its original vision and is now just a marketing vehicle for Tencent profits, with employee morale and trust in leadership declining.

seems legit thanks AI

[bronze dawn]

🤷

chatgpt said it not me

[last cedar]

I wonder if that dude got caught

and fired

they had to figure it out

[glass dune]

I mean, it's also obvious that all is not well at GGG. The product tends to reflect its production.

[bronze dawn]

yup

[glass dune]

Thing is, if they found out who it was, whoever it was would not just be fired, they'd be forced to sign an NDA that they would never be able to afford to break.

[sweet blade]

And if Jonathan really is pushing crossbows, it might explain why crossbows were basically the only thing buffed in 0.2.0

[last cedar]

Gameplay criticism: The game allegedly plays poorly, favors flashy ranged combat (like crossbows shooting lasers), and neglects melee, which is weak and underdeveloped. Many planned features have been scrapped or watered down.

[glass dune]

I don't really understand crossbows in ARPGs.

Like, the Demon Hunter in D3 was just laughable.

Crossbows do not work like that.

[last cedar]

Bro i think he is right if dagger come out it wont be a melee wep mostly throwing wep

[glass dune]

They just don't.

[sweet blade]

Well, when you treat them like ARs, it's okay. 😉

[sweet blade]

And Swords have never even been developed?

[glass dune]

I assume that crossbows in PoE2 are just machine guns.

[bronze dawn]

ehhh crossbows that fire magical bolts are somewhat okay to me

if you want an example of crossbows done so right in a video game check out dark and darker lol

[last cedar]

Swords are coming i believe but who knows when

[glass dune]

Magical bolts is one thing, but being used as machine guns is entirely different.

[last cedar]

bet they working on druid next

[glass dune]

Oh, and dual wielding crossbows the way it happened in D3 is even more laughable.

How the fudge is she suposed to reload those things inbetween all the rapid firing?

Do they just have magazines or something? Are they semi automatic?

[teal flame]

Big update on Friday, let's gooo

[sweet blade]

MAGIC(tm)... fueled by hatred.... :p

[teal flame]

I love crossbows in that game

[last cedar]

Why do we not have guns??

too much?

doesnt fit poe?

[glass dune]

Not good enough. It takes more to suspend disbelief than just magic™.

[sweet blade]

It was joking. 🙂

[glass dune]

I guessed you were.

But still.

Like, an elephant flying in FF14. I can believe that.

[bronze dawn]

haha all my hype goin to LE atm

[glass dune]

FF14 is just that kind of setting.

[last cedar]

did they finally fix loot and the shitty campaign?

[teal flame]

...for dark and darker? They never had a campaign

[last cedar]

Oh my bad i thought you ment poe2 lmao

[teal flame]

haha

[bronze dawn]

lol nah dark and darker is fantasy tarkov

[teal flame]

Same, but I need a game to play with my buddies and dark and darker is fun with them.

They don't like ARPGs

[bronze dawn]

d&d stuff like fighters wizards clerics etc

[bronze dawn]

shame

[teal flame]

Indeed

[glass dune]

Any tabletop players in here?

[teal flame]

Yep

I'm skipping DMing tonight because of a work thing

[bronze dawn]

not a player personally but i've seen/heard every episode of critical role and naddpod

sooo

[glass dune]

I've had this weekly D&D group for like 15 years now.

[bronze dawn]

and i play bg3, pathfinder wotr, etc

[glass dune]

Every monday

Consistently

[sweet blade]

Yes.

[glass dune]

In person.

[sweet blade]

Yeah, I wish I had that.

Guess I'm too much of an ass.

[glass dune]

We have a table with a screen built in to display battle maps

[bronze dawn]

nice

[sweet blade]

Yeah, I've wanted that too.

[bronze dawn]

i've never played in person or anything.. don't know enough people haha

[sweet blade]

I've been exposed to so many different RPG systems.

[bronze dawn]

also kinda cba

[sweet blade]

I'm anxiously awaiting the Cosmere RPG release.

[glass dune]

That being said.

More and more I'm starting to feel like D&D is actually garbage.

[bronze dawn]

it's wizards

(of the coast)

[sweet blade]

THAT'S a topic I won't touch.

I'm actually angrier at PF2 than D&D, though. Mainly for hypocrisy.

[bronze dawn]

pf be like; roll to miss

[glass dune]

I've been meaning to get my friends into pathfinder 2E. We had a successful trial session a couple months ago, and I kinda want to do monthly sessions in place of our usual session now. That way our DM can also take some time off being DM. But I haven't found the time to do the proper preparations.

[teal flame]

I really miss playing in person.

[sweet blade]

I mean, if you like it, that's fine.

[teal flame]

We've moved entirely to pathfinder 2e, it feels so much better than 5th edition to us

[glass dune]

You have to understand, I was a big fan of D&D 4E back in the day, and PF2E is much like that.

[sweet blade]

But when you realize how PF started (reaction against 4E), and then you see PF2 and it's LITERALLY doing the same things to solve the same problems, but everyone's cheering Paizo when they dumped on WotC, I was like... 'you guys are a cult'.

[glass dune]

I figured it'd be this. Hence my explanation above.

[teal flame]

If they'd marketed 4th edition as "D&D Tactics" it would've been a wild success.

[sweet blade]

4E solved so many issues. This is a very good lesson, though, in people not actually understanding what they want. 😉

[bronze dawn]

yall played wrath of the righteous or kingmaker?

[sweet blade]

It WAS a wild success.. .for me at least.

[sweet blade]

Both. And done Kingmaker in PF2.0.

[teal flame]

It was for me too, but not for the community at large, which is the important part

[bronze dawn]

nice

[sweet blade]

Sure.

[glass dune]

I have never played a premade adventure.

I have my own idea for an open ended campaign using hexploration.

Where I just kinda fill in the world map as we go. 😛

[sweet blade]

I'm hoping to get a group together for the Cosmere RPG and do that.

[sweet blade]

Time constraints, unfortunately.

[glass dune]

I did play Curse of Strahd in 5E.

Because like, I had no creativity for 5E.

PF2E gives me all sorts of ideas for plot lines due to the kinds of items and monsters I can use. And how easy it is to customize monsters.

Like, you have no idea how difficult it is to come up with original content if you can't customize monsters easily.

For me, I mean.

[sweet blade]

I just hate the treadmill feel of PF2E. Though my son's Strawberry Leshy Ranger named Bushtrum Berrington was the absolute star of Kingmaker.

[sweet blade]

I play Exalted. Believe me, I know.

[glass dune]

Hell, forget customizing monsters.

[bronze dawn]

i preferred righteous just cause mythic levels are fun lol

[glass dune]

Building encounters in 5E is a nightmare.

[sweet blade]

One more backslide from 4E. And yeah...

I always wondered why no one ever made a CRPG for Rolemaster, because the game REQUIRES the level of automated lookup that is so good on a computer and so hellish in person.

[bronze dawn]

oh also camellia

she is helpful, is she not?

[glass dune]

In 4E, building encounters and customizing monsters was very elegant.

And PF2E borrows a lot from that pattern.

The only thing I kinda miss from 4E is elite and solo monsters.

[sweet blade]

Maybe I'm just bad at PF2E... it's so exhausting to work with it for me.

[sweet blade]

Hands up if any of you remember the animated shorts D&D put out for 4E... particularly the Mind Flayer one.

[glass dune]

"I'm a monster, rawr!"

[sweet blade]

(Gnomes are my favorite race, so... yeah.)

But the Mind Flayer one was best.

[bronze dawn]

wondering if critical role gang are switching to daggerheart for campaign 4

i think probably lol

[glass dune]

Wonder no more

That's exactly what they're doing

[sweet blade]

Never once watched them. No desire to.

[bronze dawn]

oh they confirm it?

didn't notice

[glass dune]

And I don't even watch Critical Role

[sweet blade]

(I'm the kind of guy who hates even overhearing someone else's conversation, particularly phone.)

[bronze dawn]

ahh right i like listening to the podcast

[sweet blade]

Ugh.

[glass dune]

I am kinda curious about Draw Steel!

Anyone heard of that?

[sweet blade]

Doesn't ring a bell.

[glass dune]

Formerly known as "The MCDM RPG"?

[sweet blade]

I've played so many different systems...

[sweet blade]

Heard of that briefly.

My favorite RPG to think about running is Paranoia, hands down.

[glass dune]

Basically, you know how the OGL scandal either directly caused or accelerated the development of a bunch of indie TTRPG projects? Including Daggerheart?

Draw Steel is one of those.

[bronze dawn]

ohh

[sweet blade]

Rather. Yeah, makes sense.

I'm... just so tired.

[glass dune]

Basically Draw Steel is more like uh, how do I put this?

It's very high octane cinematic action.

[sweet blade]

Like 7th Sea?

[glass dune]

I don't really know that. But the focus is very much on the action, and not so much on the non-actiony bits.

[sweet blade]

Yeah...

[glass dune]

But there is some room for self expression. Equipment is abstracted into "kits". A kit modifies your stats and usually gives you one new attack. It thematically represents all of your equipment and training in one package.

So you get to decide what your equipment looks like.

[sweet blade]

Mm... makes sense. Again, looked over the Cosmere RPG and my twin brother played it, and everything I'm hearing is that it's going to be very good.

[glass dune]

Different classes also have their own little resource thing that they generate by meeting certain conditions in combat. And as your in-game day progresses, you begin encounters with more of this resource.

[sweet blade]

Neat.

Very 4E, in parts.

[glass dune]

There's no damage roll. You deal more or less damage based on your success roll.

I've not played it myself, I just looked at the material and am kind of interested in it when it releases.

Supposedly you can do all sorts of cool stuff like deal extra damage by knocking enemies into obstacles or other enemies.

[teal flame]

That does sound kinda cool. Getting away from the standard d20 gameplay is always interesting

[glass dune]

The success roll is 2d10 iirc

[sweet blade]

I well remember a time when we all wanted to go toward d20 gameplay.

[teal flame]

I assume there's some sort of advantage/disadvantage system where it changes the dice count and size and stuff?

[glass dune]

I think just bonuses or penalties.

Flat ones.

And honestly I kinda like what PF2E does with the D20.

Just this idea that hitting a DC +10 = critical success is neat. And having effects for hitting criticals with skills or saving throws is also nice.

[sweet blade]

2d10 at least give some central tendency...

[glass dune]

I think this is why 2d10 was chosen.

[sweet blade]

I'm sure it throws all the d20 players for a loop. ><

[glass dune]

I mean it's essentially the same. Just the odds are a little different.

The success range is also like

7+ = normal success, 12+ is big success, something like that.

The actual numbers might be different.

But that's the general idea.

[sweet blade]

It's not really the same at all. It may not be as extreme as 3d6, but the probabilities are not as uniform...

[glass dune]

The odds are a little different.

You're more likely to hit 7-13 than you are to hit 1-6 or 14-20.

[sweet blade]

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

[glass dune]

I mean you can't hit 1 at all for that matter but that's besides the point.

[sweet blade]

Or, IOW, a +1 is more impactful the farther you are away from the mean.

More than a d20.

[glass dune]

Ah, but in PF2E, a +1 is also highly impactful.

[sweet blade]

Not to the same degree, by the very nature of the underlying probability distribution.

[glass dune]

Yes, but it's still very impactful.

It doesn't just increase chance to hit, but chance to crit as well.

[sweet blade]

sigh Yes, I'm well aware.

[glass dune]

Sorry if that sounded a bit frustrating.

I really am fond of that system though.

[sweet blade]

Sure, but you're missing my point by focusing on it.

[teal flame]

The old days of 3d6 in order, no rerolls. Those characters were gaaaaarbage

[glass dune]

Randomly rolled character stats can die in a fire.

[sweet blade]

Every bonus +1 you get is worth more than the last. This is much more true with 2d10 than 1d20.

[sweet blade]

I prefer point-buy myself, but it can help in some situations.

[glass dune]

Do you know Shadowrun's priority system?

[sweet blade]

Haven't played Shadowrun since... 3rd? 4th? Edition.

So I dunno.

[glass dune]

Well, conceptually the priority system hasn't really changed.

[sweet blade]

Oh! You mean for character creation.

Yeah, I know it.

(Sorry, been a while.)

[glass dune]

You choose what axis of character creation you have more off. Money, raw stats, which races you can choose, etc.

[sweet blade]

Yep.

[glass dune]

I always found it interesting that there is essentially a tax on being anything other than a human.

[sweet blade]

It seems fairly obvious to me.

[glass dune]

I mean the way this is expressed makes sense. You get something in return for it too.

I just think it's interesting.

[sweet blade]

Races are, in effect, a bundle of stats put together in a prepackaged way. As long as it's worth the cost... why not?

[glass dune]

More than that, different races have higher stat ceilings than humans.

A human simply cannot achieve the same level of Body that a troll can.

[sweet blade]

This follows from what I previous said, yes.

[glass dune]

I did for a few weeks play that one simplified edition of Paranoia.

My players had a really difficult time screwing each other over.

[sweet blade]

People say that I would be a master at playing Paranoia. And diabolical as the Computer.

[glass dune]

Which I found very surprising.

Like I thought they'd have absolutely no qualms stabbing each other in the back.

But everyone was so nice to each other.

[sweet blade]

I think they failed to understand the assignment. 😉

[glass dune]

Also the guy who rolled the most OP mutant power in the game was too afraid to ever use it. He literally never used it.

[sweet blade]

See previous statement.

🤣

[glass dune]

He rolled Machine Empathy.

And he was like "Oh shit if they ever find out I'm cooked".

So he never used it.

[sweet blade]

They clearly didn't understand the first rule of playing Paranoia: "If you're the only person giving the final report to the Computer, you have all the power."

[glass dune]

Also, the Computer will treat your clone as a completely new entity, despite the fact that you're pretty much exactly the same.

Even during character creation.

Like, in the version I played there's a version where the players give their character sheets to the player on their left.

And then they are given the chance to make modifications to it.

Which means the chance to really screw over someone's stats. Give them points in skills that don't go well with their attributes. Stuff like that.

But instead they optimized each other.

You have to understand. They were nicer to each other than they are while playing D&D.

[sweet blade]

Sorry... was dealing with something.

[sweet blade]

Cf.

[glass dune]

XD

[sweet blade]

I can see certain people I could play with (my older brother for instance) acting like this, but not most. And my groups are very 'no intraparty conflict'.

[last cedar]

Guys Hawg cooked again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MytUlOHFHuY&

[sweet blade]

... this is physically painful to watch.

I saw Mike there in the beginning, though!

[last cedar]

lmfao mannn

[sweet blade]

I didn't even make it past the 2 minute mark before turning it off.

[glass dune]

Items, apparently, are not in the vision.

[sweet blade]

I just couldn't watch that video.

[red oasis]

I have some hope that mark will take hold of the reins more

The end game is actually better, not like by a huge amount, but enough that yeah, it was somewhat worth getting through the campaign lol

[sweet blade]

Considering I never got through the campaign in 0.1...

[red oasis]

Don’t do it lol you’re not missing anything anyways

I still question my sanity for slogging through it

Now if le s2 was out I def would not have 🤣

[sweet blade]

They need to make substantial changes before I ever come back.

[glass dune]

Because of the dialog?

[sweet blade]

Yeah, the interview excerpts.

The condescension on display from Jonathan was just... disgusting.

[viral galleon]

Why is Jonathan grumpy when people are saying on the subreddit that he should be fired

He apologizes for his tone at the end of the interview

[sweet blade]

There could be any number of reasons that Jonathan is grumpy.

[gilded elm]

Damn, that's wild lol

[ivory swift]

Meh, still won't move the all reviews nettle though. May fly reviews isn't something to be concerned with. It's kind of like the stock market, easily startled, and will rebound if you give it time.

[sweet blade]

Ouuuuch. It actually hit that low.

[gilded elm]

Schedule I released on March 24, btw.

And was made by 1 person.

[sweet blade]

Is that on Twitch?

[gilded elm]

Yeah

[ivory swift]

schedule 1 is a pop culture launch though

[gilded elm]

It's almost unheard of for a game to still be going this strong after release on Twitch, except for say games like Baldur's Gate 3

Even pop culture games.

[ivory swift]

naw, fortnight was a pop culture game too, lasted a long time

[sweet blade]

Interesting. But it's not really a good comparison.. time of day perhaps?

[gilded elm]

Fortnite is a competitive game.

Valorant is a competitive game.

These games all have good reasons to maintain top viewers.

[ivory swift]

Fortnite was a survival builder that added a competitive mode as a half baked idea

[gilded elm]

It's also not as often heard of for a new ARPG league to die so quickly into its release.

Literally can just go look up teh viewership trends

None of it is secret.

[gilded elm]

This is prime time gaming in the US on a weekday

[ivory swift]

190,070
24-hour peak

the fall off isn't that bad

[gilded elm]

The main point is the longevity of this one man developed game in Twitch.

It's almost entirely unheard of.

[sweet blade]

Okay, just thinking of possible explanations.

[ivory swift]

238k to 190k isn't a massive fall off, that's pretty normal one week after ARPG launches

[gilded elm]

The Steam falloff is following fairly regular ARPG season trends. The Twitch falloff will affect perception. GGG fortunately made the good decision to start changing tune rapidly following the interview, so I expect the league to make a small come back on Twitch, leading up to LE's season release.

[sweet blade]

Good to know.

[ivory swift]

Player numbers is the only thing that counts. Only reason to look at twitch is if you can't get player numbers from somewhere like steam.

people who are playing the game, and spending money don't watch twitch at the same time normally

[gilded elm]

If you have any experience in marketing, I assure you that CCU is not the only metric that actually matters. That Mostly Negative "Recent Reviews" score is called "Lost Opportunity Cost"

Those people who would have bought access to the game this league, who instead chose not to. That has a real impact. Albeit a temporary one assuming GGG turns their act around.

Having people who already purchased the game continue to play the game is good, but it's not the only thing that matters.

[ivory swift]

The sticker price on the game probably pales in comparision on the MTX that's sold

[sweet blade]

Heh.

[ivory swift]

especially sense the sticker price is $30. Look at any game with MTX's, the majority of the sales is MTX not the sticker price. They are retaining a good % of players from league launch which means higher conversions on MTX

The sticker price sales was mostly only relevatent when the game first launched

[gilded elm]

This is (incorrectly) predicated on the idea that MTX sales are sufficient or better than they would be otherwise if the league launch was actually positively received and the Steam reviews weren't so negative. The point is, they missed their target.

The proof is in the pudding, really. GGG wouldn't be panicking with interviews and Jonathan likely wouldn't be so seemingly stressed and confrontational if he and GGG didn't have so much riding on this.

[sweet blade]

Mm, ego explains a lot of Jonathan's behavior.

[gilded elm]

They did damage control to slow the spread of this perception, rightly so. That's what they should be doing, because this actually means something. This affects their bottom line.

Just people there's still a healthy number of people actively playing the game they already purchased before they knew the league was a dumpster fire isn't a good metric on how the game is currently doing or how it will continue to do at this pace.

[ivory swift]

If that was true then the player numbers should of dropped significantly. Or rise significantly based off recent news.

but the playerbase doesn't move like the stock market from bad reviews, people who already have the game won't look at reviews

the number of new players this far from release is negligable.

people don't play games they hate, people who are playing are the ones spending money on MTX's

[gilded elm]

This is still the first week of the league, technically speaking. The average lifespan of a new ARPG league/season is around 3 weeks. New sales at this point in the league is in fact something GGG and any company expects and depends on. Even EHG, no doubt.

Those Mostly Negative reviews absolutely will be bottlenecking new sales.

[ivory swift]

EHG hasn't moved heavy into MTX, so I would agree with you. However beyond any doubt, GGG relies on MTX not sticker prices.

[sweet blade]

I expect it to bounce back to Mixed before the end of the week.

[gilded elm]

It should, it's only hanging by a thread on the Mostly Negatives. In fact, only 1%

It might even make it back to Mostly Positive before LE season.

[ivory swift]

PoE1 has become wildly successful with $0 sticker price, it's all about player numbers

[gilded elm]

Basically this is Kalandra levels of screw up and GGG is responding in the same way. This hurts them financially.

[sweet blade]

That's unlikely IMO.

[gilded elm]

I think it could happen, people generally give GGG a lot of leeway. I think a lot of reviews that were negative will simply turn positive as meaningful change comes in the next few days.

[sweet blade]

Assuming the changes are indeed meaningful.

[ivory swift]

MTX is the primary profit for games these days. Even games with sticker prices are mostly profitable thru MTX's

[gilded elm]

Based on what I've seen, I think there will be meaningful changes yeah. It's just unfortunate it took all this festering for them to actually capitulate.

[gilded elm]

You're missing the point that new sales are what drive MTX growth. You can't sustain on just MTX with negative retention. This is the entire reason we have new leagues in the first place, to drive new sales/interest/get new people to look at the game (re: not people who are already fans). Again, this is called "lost opportunity cost" and it's self-evident based on GGG's panic that this is a serious issue for them. Nonetheless, they've started to take good steps to address it.

[sweet blade]

Perhaps I should say that I think the players will receive the least-possible meaningful changes, because most of these changes clash with at least Jonathan's view of The Vision.

[gilded elm]

Jonathan seems to be coming around. I think given the anticipation leading up to LE, there's a very good chance we start to see some meaningful changes coming through.

[ivory swift]

All you have to do is go on the PoE forums to see that's not true. People with 20+ supporter packs bought

[gilded elm]

They've been working rather quickly in fact, as opposed to how Blizzard handled the Diablo 4 launch.

[ivory swift]

PoE has a MASSIVE MTX team

[sweet blade]

I don't have the same confidence, unfortunately, with Jonathan.

[ivory swift]

repeat buyers, PoE1 has grown, but it doesn't NEED to grow to make profit as people buy new supporter packs every league

[gilded elm]

You cannot sustain a business on negative retention playerbase. The fact is that PoE1's playerbase has grown consistently every single league.

You can't sell MTX long-term when you are losing players long-term. Fortunately, GGG is turning the situation around. This is just a blip in PoE2's history.

Or it will be just a blip.

[ivory swift]

There is some revolving doors on retention, but it's not as big as you think. A very large % of the money comes from repeat customers.

[gilded elm]

For reference, I've spent thousands of dollars across PoE1 and PoE2. I spent $0 in PoE2 this league. I've invested less than 10 hours played. I'm the type of person who GGG wants to keep my business.

[sweet blade]

Maybe more recently, but the multiple regression I did after 3.15 showed no inherent growth in the player base in... years, I would say.

[gilded elm]

Read: Multiple, thouands, of dollars.

GGG doesn't want to lose people like me as a customer.

[ivory swift]

And they will, in PoE1 i'm sure

[gilded elm]

I didn't play Phrecia, I'm still not playing PoE1. They're killing PoE1 right now.

[sweet blade]

I have done similar with PoE1. Haven't spent a dime on PoE2.

[ivory swift]

That's the reason they are making two games, to cover two different crowds that have some overlap

[gilded elm]

Right now they're making one game and letting the other die.

PoE1 is overdue for a new league by over half a year now.

[ivory swift]

well you bought in, so you did spend a dime, but haven't bought a supporter pack yet

PoE1 is scheduled sometime around may

[gilded elm]

I got PoE2 for free, becuase I never expected to play PoE2 by the time I even met the "free copy" threshold.

[ivory swift]

end of may*

ah true

[gilded elm]

But I also bought the Liberator of Wraeclast supporter pack when PoE2 first released. That's the $500 pack btw.

I didn't buy anything this league, though.

And I won't until I see meaningful change.

[sweet blade]

For me, it's even simpler. GGG clearly isn't listening. Their disdain is obvious. Until they stop acting this way, I certainly won't support them, regardless of any changes.

[gilded elm]

There's some hope on what is presumably the "cause" of that disdain. At least Jonathan apologized for being confrontational in the interview and I hope he carries that with him beyond the interview.

[ivory swift]

You two are welcome to stop playing I guess, to each their own. I personally like PoE2 atm.

[sweet blade]

Jonathan could tell me that the sky is blue and I wouldn't believe him.

[gilded elm]

Don't worry, I did. That's why I'm here in an off topic LE chat venting about it.

I quit on day 1

[ivory swift]

Game probably isn't for you

[gilded elm]

You know what, I mostly agree. Jonathan isn't making a game for me

[ivory swift]

Game is mostly for people who want a slower more darksouls like game (like me)

[gilded elm]

I enjoy a lot of Souls-like games. I think if I wanted to try a Souls-like ARPG, I'd probably just play NRFTW.

[ivory swift]

PoE 1 used to be this way, but feature creep causes it to be what it is today, and it left me behind a bit

[sweet blade]

GGG clearly have a Vision, but no clear path to that Vision, and somehow don't understand that that's necessary.

[ivory swift]

Problem is you and they dont' have the same vision

Not all games are fun for everyone, it's a different style for sure

[gilded elm]

Seemingly only ~30% of the people who reviewed the game during this league share that vision. I somehow doubt this figure is the target goal they had in mind

And if that continues to remain the case, then PoE2 as a project is kind of uncertain as to how its existence can continue to be justified especially if it comes at the expense of their main money maker, PoE1.

[ivory swift]

That's a survivors bias, most people who would give a review did so at lauch

[sweet blade]

Quite possibly it is, honestly.

[ivory swift]

people don't normally give a review after 4 months of the launch if they like the game

unless they are unhappy

[sweet blade]

The problem is that their game garnered too much attention too quickly, so now even if they are okay with smaller player bases, they have all these reviews hanging over their head.

[ivory swift]

We saw this on Helldivers 2, most of the reviews aren't even new, just revised

[gilded elm]

I really think it is just ego and I'm hopeful he'll come around to shedding some of it. At least he seems to be coming around, somewhat. We'll see

[ivory swift]

you can't revise a positive review into another positive review, so recent reviews aren't even a fair shake

[gilded elm]

I'm sure Jonathan will eventually realize the critics are on his side with regards to a desire to see the game succeed.

[sweet blade]

I think it's more likely that Mark is leading a mutiny and pushing Jonathan out if good changes do occur.

[sweet blade]

Doubtful.

[ivory swift]

Game is succeeding though? This league still has more players then have ever played PoE1 at the same time after league launch

if you compare 1 to 1 PoE1 vs PoE2, PoE2 is more popular even on a "bad" league

[gilded elm]

He just has to work through the whole "being condescending to people who don't have fun with some of his ideas for the game" and he'll do fine lol

[sweet blade]

And I have seen no signs of his ability to do this. His 'apology' held no sincerity, because he would apologize regardless of whether he meant it, IMO.

[ivory swift]

I'm comparing start of settlers (highest player count) vs this current league and PoE2 is still higher 6 days after launch (vs 6 days after settlers)

This league is a success, despite all the negative reviews.

[gilded elm]

I don't know I kinda of sympthasize with his position. It's hard to reconcile your vision in a business setting with consumers and potential consumers. He clearly has a lot of enthusiasm and passion for game design, he is just not good at handling criticism and accepting that theory and reality don't always mesh nicely.

[sweet blade]

He has a passion to get the game he wants built. I've seen little to no sign that he has any competence at game design, which rather negates any enthusiasm and passion he has for it.

[gilded elm]

Jonathan does game design theory very well. Execution leaves a lot to be desired, though

[sweet blade]

Hard disagree, from what I've seen.

[ivory swift]

How much have you seen?

[gilded elm]

For example, Jonathan being surprised to learn that people felt the campaign was nerfed (re: it was) despite his personal belief that the campaign was not nerfed because they didn't touch anything specific to the campaign itself, completely ignoring the plethora of crap that got nerfed which did affect player power significantly during the campaign.

[sweet blade]

What I would like is for Jonathan to sit down and explain his Vision in detail. Elevator pitch is Souls-like meets ARPG. Okay, great. What elements come from ARPGs, which come from Souls-like, and what is the process that you compromise when the elements clash when combined?

[sweet blade]

That is a pretty good example, to me, of a basic failure to understand game design. Or system design more generally.

[ivory swift]

That could be a confusion on terminology, The campaign wasn't nerfed, the builds where. Yes you can make the argument that the campaign was nerfed, but that's simply a shift of perspective, it doesn't change the underlining change.

[gilded elm]

I mean, sure. Jonathan doesn't really talk in those specific details to us. He mostly just regurgitates abstract game design theory.

[sweet blade]

Not even that. I study game design theory. I don't hear it from him.

[gilded elm]

He's a vision guy, but not a details guy, for sure.

I think the game would be a lot better if Jonathan just stuck to the vision side of things and let someone else like Mark handle executing his vision.

[sweet blade]

Then, at the very least, he should not override details guys. Which clearly is.

[ivory swift]

Johnathan is mostly a manager atm, he gets involved sometimes, but not always

[gilded elm]

Agreed!

He is stepping on toes

Jonathan is very clearly involved in the details right now.

[sweet blade]

If Jonathan cannot explain his Vision successfully in the manner I've described, no one can implement it.

[gilded elm]

This seems like the crux of the problem.

[sweet blade]

(Obviously not necessarily to me, but at least internally.)

[ivory swift]

We only see the public facing side, Johnathan doesn't want to tell players what the game is, like an artist he wants the players to figure it out themselves. Behind closed doors I have 0 doubt there is a specific style they are going for.

[gilded elm]

At the very least, even if Jonathan cannot fully articulate his vision even internally, he should just let Mark infer his own details based on the overall vision. Because Mark is at least much more in touch with the playerbase.

As it stands right now, it's very clear Jonathan is involved in the small details.

I mean shit, he is probably writing all of the major announcement posts himself, as he has been known to do (by his own admission).

[ivory swift]

That was back in the day, they have community people now for that

[sweet blade]

But then that is not necessarily Jonathan's Vision, and unless he has at least veto power over design, it can't be his Vision. And if he does have veto power, then he has to be able to explain it, or the devs don't know what to make, because they don't know what will be accepted.

[ivory swift]

He has veto, and he does explain it, but not to the public.

[gilded elm]

Well yeah, I think he should just keep to broad strokes when it comes to "the vision"

If he himself cannot even articulate the whole vision, then leave the details to people who are more in touch with the playerbase. Stop overriding small decisions.

I think Mark, and the rest of us, have a decent grasp of the general idea of the vision. A lot of what Mark says how the game should be does in fact resonate with the playerbase.

[sweet blade]

That is quite possibly what he is doing, and then refuses the result until it's what he wants. Which would be keeping to broad strokes IMO.

Jonathan is the client who can't tell you what he wants, only what you're producing is wrong, possibly.

[gilded elm]

lol, don't remind me of my freelancing days

[sweet blade]

Beyond ARPG meets Souls-like, I've got nothing on what the Vision actually is, and that's not enough of broad strokes.

[gilded elm]

That's it, basically. But that's a lot to work with. It's clear the vision is more about PoE2 essentially being more "methodical" (IMO one of the best words to describe what he wants).

[ivory swift]

he wants meaningful combat

[sweet blade]

Then most of the decisions they're making, and even the concessions they're making to players, are against the Vision.

[ivory swift]

I want meaningful combat

basicaly don't 1 shot the screen, and spam only 1 skill

Basicaly not a game you can AFK play

[gilded elm]

Yeah it almost comes across like Jonathan has never played a Souls-like game, ever. The current state of the game isn't "methodical" when monsters are so constantly always agressive that you aren't afforded even the slight opportunity to execute a combo, for example.

[ivory swift]

If you want that, play PoE1

[ivory swift]

WTF? I'm playing huntress right now using whirling strike/tornado combo all the time?

[sweet blade]

Weird if thats the vision when they dont even understand the genre.

That could explain it, though. The Vision isn't ARPG meets Souls-like, it's ARPG meets Jonathan's view of Souls-like.

Which is clearly something quite different.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I'd love to see Jonathan play a Souls-like that isn't Elden Ring lol

A Souls-like where you can't just grind your power if you suck.

[sweet blade]

Even Elden Ring would be an improvement over nothing?

[gilded elm]

Oh sure, but Elden Ring is like a "play at your own pace" Souls-like because you can trivialize the game through grinding for power.

Kind of like traditional RPG meets Souls-like

[sweet blade]

Mmm.

[gilded elm]

I wanna see him play games like Sekiro

[sweet blade]

I want to see him display basic understanding of what he talks about. 🫣

[gilded elm]

I'm starting to wonder if Chris Wilson wasn't actually the voice of reason all these years lmao

[last cedar]

lmao never seen so much loot in a ARPG poe 2 could never yo i love it here

[sweet blade]

I think he was the voice of pragmatism.

[last cedar]

havent had fun with the crafting yet tho

[gilded elm]

So many shards/runes/glyphs, still wish those were auto-pickup haha.

[sweet blade]

Craft Early, Craft Often.

[gilded elm]

LE highly encourages you to craft early with all those shard drops, yeah

The difference this makes in early game power is enormous

[sweet blade]

I'm okay with the current system.

[gilded elm]

I would say if you are in the campaign, crafting vs not crafting can easily be like 2-3x power multiplier.

[last cedar]

dam i got so much maybe i should craft but idk i was hoping to find a BIS and go ham

[sweet blade]

Don't let the best be the enemy of the good.

[gilded elm]

The good thing about LE is you don't have to think too hard about saving up your crafting resources.

You will always get a ton of them

[last cedar]

Its insane u get so much

[gilded elm]

Yup

[last cedar]

why cant poe 2 do this grrr

[ivory swift]

Meh PoE1 is even worse

you need a loot filter or you can't see anything

[sweet blade]

As one example, IMO you should ALWAYS use Glyph of Hope on crafts unless you are required to use another Glyph.

[gilded elm]

Yep, definitely

[sweet blade]

The Vision. Though how less loot fits into said Vision is less clear.

[last cedar]

ima check if i have it

[sweet blade]

One of those 'broad strokes' that should be explained.

[gilded elm]

Just adding flat damage to my melee weapons early game multiplied my damage 2x lol

And those shards were cheap/worthless.

[last cedar]

what stage in the game i get shit ton of shatters?

im broke

[gilded elm]

You can buy them from vendor

[sweet blade]

Midway through the campaign?

[last cedar]

I think im on chapter 3?

[sweet blade]

I never buy Shatters from the Vendor.

[last cedar]

oh got it

[gilded elm]

Check vendors for shatters, easy source if he aren't getting any

[last cedar]

im broke as hell

[sweet blade]

More towards the end of the next Era.

[gilded elm]

1000g per shatter, I think? Maybe 2000

[sweet blade]

2k

[last cedar]

i believe its 2000g

expensive as a newb

[gilded elm]

Should become much more affordable as you progress through the campaign. I'm at 50k gold on my new playthrough, still in campaign.

[sweet blade]

Correct which is why I don't buy them.

[gilded elm]

But I'm only shattering stuff I believe will be useful

[sweet blade]

By the time I feel the need to Shatter anything, I have more than enough.

[gilded elm]

And ofc using loot filter to highlight anything that drops with mods I want.

[ivory swift]

If anything save the good items you want to shatter and rush towards endgame, you will get a lot more gold then and can shatter easier

or if it's a mod you really want, use runes of removal to hopefully get it's full value

[last cedar]

My lord.... crafting never felt so good to me until now

got it guys ima def shatter the good affixes for sure

[gilded elm]

Finding a base item feels good in LE early game especially.

[last cedar]

1.2 is going be fun as hell

[ivory swift]

What game is that?

[last cedar]

more crafting potential

[sweet blade]

That's the hope.

[last cedar]

we need see the patch notes for sure

[gilded elm]

Have you gotten uniques/legendaries yet? You probably ran into some Harbinger stuff, yeah?

Feels good when early game uniques are actually useful lol

[last cedar]

bro they not as rare as poe which is nice

i think i found this ring that leveled up

it had weaver on it or something

[gilded elm]

Weaver's Will, yeah

[sweet blade]

Oh that's good.

[last cedar]

drops has been pretty nice

[sweet blade]

I have an irrational joy of WW items.

[gilded elm]

The Weaver's Will stuff is really nice early on

[tawny sand]

I don't understand the "PoE2 is slow and methodical argument" when the monsters are blazing fast and have on death effects and the regen modifier on some rares is crazy high. It's a non-argument really, or it's not play tested. If I want a slow and methodical isometric arpg, No Rest for the Wicked does it better. Tower of Kalemenvo if I want the D1 experience.

[fierce moth]

we call that "loot explosion of loot lizards"

[gilded elm]

Yeah I mean Ziz said the same thing. He said he can't even do any perfect timing or heavier combos, basically ever because of how disruptive mobs are.

[sweet blade]

Example #1 of 'they don't know how to implement the Vision'.

[last cedar]

dude first time i seen it split in 6

it was crazy

[gilded elm]

Wait until you see them split... multiple times.

Splits within splits

[last cedar]

omgggg they split multiple times!?

omg

[gilded elm]

Yup

[last cedar]

LE spoiling me too much

[fierce moth]

many complains about too many loots after slain a dew loot lizards before

[ivory swift]

FYI they are nerfing the loot lizards a bit in the next patch

[last cedar]

nnnnnooooooo

[sweet blade]

Splitting is fairly rare though when it happens..

[last cedar]

like a divine drop

[sweet blade]

Ever had a set item Lizard split when playing CoF? I had it happen once. Could barely see the screen.

[gilded elm]

It could be that the campaign lizards have a higher chance to split.

[last cedar]

loot filter are a must man

[sweet blade]

We are talking about something that can actually happen.

[fierce moth]

it's funny to see Jonathan to ask Ziz "why you're not enough sockets early on" 😅 😂

[last cedar]

😂

Bro im telling he dont play the dam game

[pine summit]

well, remember the showcases with rigged dev items

[ivory swift]

Hah yeah, ZiZ vendoring everything for gold

[pine summit]

plus they literally said they havent played the game through start to finish in forever

just individual sections - and again, likely with rigged gear again

[sweet blade]

Octavian must be so frustrated right now.

[last cedar]

i forgot when mark said it he got someone playing the campaign rn

[pine summit]

hopefully not with one of the things they specifically overbuffed that ppl were using as it was one of the few thats actually useable like lightning spear etc

[last cedar]

WAIT did the buff lighting spear again im hearing?

[ivory swift]

lightning spear just scales better at endgame

[last cedar]

lighting spear build is def meta rn then

endgame it looks so crazy

[ivory swift]

really wanted to get some D2 vibes I guess

[last cedar]

mark my word it will get nerf a bit later for sure

[ivory swift]

will probably be nerfed next league lol

[sweet blade]

Only fun allowed is Jonathan's fun.

[last cedar]

"we nerfed lighting spear a bit because it was too much fun"

[gilded elm]

Tune into any Twitch channel, this is the only Huntress build anyone is playing. One Huntress build that feels good, that's something I guess.

[tawny sand]

They need to do a stream on what the vision actually is for the game, cause I have no idea lol

[ivory swift]

whirling + tornado is good too

[sweet blade]

They don't know how to explain it.

[last cedar]

everyone was having a field day with twisters... but now lighting spear is domianting

[tawny sand]

anyway i'm playing the old armored cores after beating AC6 once (need to do new game+ but feel like revisiting the games I grew up with) and these default controls are mad busted. How the heck it took them so long to make use of the dualshock's dual joysticks is beyond me

and how i played with the default controls back then is beyond me too haha

[sweet blade]

Heh.

[ivory swift]

Hah it was different times, think I played AC2? can't remember though, Know I cheesed the Arena fights with vertical missle launchers

[tawny sand]

yeah, it's weird. Armored Core didn't make use of dual sticks till Nexus / Last Raven

which were the last two ps3 ac's

crazy

ps2*

[ivory swift]

trying to remember what they were back then, was it just d pad and 1 stick?

[tawny sand]

it was shoulder buttons in AC2 for camera movement, i'm not sure about AC3 i don;t remember

and you move with the dpad

[ivory swift]

should buttons was for strafing I thought?

shoulder*

[tawny sand]

the only thing the sticks are used for is R3/L3 respectively

[ivory swift]

it's been so long though, you are probably right

[tawny sand]

yeah, L1/R1 are strafing, but L2/R2 are up/down camera

it's very weird

[last cedar]

dead

[ivory swift]

is that scene from a movie?

[last cedar]

It must be if someone knows the movie let me knowww

"items are not in the vision" im dead man

[ivory swift]

lol yeah, AI is getting wild

[tawny sand]

it looks familiar but i don't know the movie it's from

or tv show, whatever it is

[sweet blade]

Someone I think mentioned it earlier.

[pine summit]

the zero gravity and reversed gravity stuff is neat

[gilded elm]

lol

GTO is great

[last cedar]

FACTSSSS

That was suppose to be us on 0.2 bro but nahhhhhhhh

[fierce moth]

😂 A bit silly that I never know creator program is closed when I tried my best to produce the best contents.

But anyways... impossible to join in that too

😂 😂 😂 😂 This scene is too funny

😂 thanks, thanks for reminding me he post a new meme video. hhhhhhhhh

I'm appreciated Hawg meme videos can let me laughing once I watched his meme videos. He know what can make people laughing clearly

[fierce moth]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3753015/page/1#p26066968

ok let me check out...

[fierce moth]

We have now finished adding all of the mods to runes for caster weapons. Desert, Glacial, Storm, Iron, Body, Mind, Rebirth, Inspiration, Stone and Vision runes all now work on Wands and Staves, with their own set of modifiers.

🤔 I'm interested in seeing any changes bring by this change.

Charm slots on belts are now granted by implicit mods that are added to belts depending on the level of the area that dropped them. The number of slots is random up to a cap depending on how high level the belt is. You can use a Divine Orb to reroll the number of slots.

Belts have 1 charm slot until level 32, up to 2 until level 64 and up to 3 from level 65 and onwards.

Unique Belts can always have up to 3 charm slots.

And GGG realize their charm slots are trash finally, great. More charm slots is appreciated.

[twilit mountain]

W

[blissful token]

I see charm changes the best in the whole thread

-Then changes to the charms themselves.
Several charms were not protecting you from the hit that activated them, these cases have been fixed to work properly.
We have also done a pass on Charm mods to make them more powerful and rewarding.

Hmm the patch will be live tonight at 10pm my time 🤔

[fierce moth]

No worries, lots of changes GGG must make before we can get smooth experience.

I choose keep waiting until all changes I want are implemented

[blissful token]

Honestly the first line about activating the charm when monster first hit you should have been a thing since 0.1

[crisp onyx]

ppl discovering le rehab

[crisp onyx]

word 'rewarding' starting to set my teeth on the edge

[fierce moth]

https://x.com/AaronActionRPG/status/1909711823491993994
Lol nice AI generated content.

[past breach]

but not sceptres because they hate minion builds

[past breach]

We need blessed orbs. Ain't nobody going to waste a divine orb to reroll charm slots

The only issue I have with minion speed is when they have a mana draining aura becaue then you literally can't do anything.

I'm glad they fixed minion revive crap a little bit, but I still don't like it. But also

"Disenchanting a Bind Spectre or Tame Beast gem will unbind them, allowing you to use them again." YES!!!!!!

[last cedar]

Ok but where is the gear drops tho GGG?

[past breach]

But no mention of the changes making Act 3 maps smaller yet?

[last cedar]

ziz face is my whole poe 2 experience bro smh

[gilded elm]

Damn, can't believe my diplomatic request for an alliance in exchange for my appreciation didn't work 😦

Bish wut, I'll destroy you

[pine summit]

cant wait for new mechas

[fierce moth]

🤔
Maybe it can become the inspiration for new work
(It's AI generated)

[sand wigeon]

This is just AI generated brutalist architecture. You can find real examples of brutalist architecture.

[fierce moth]

Brutalist architecture.
✅

[twilit mountain]

Pictures of brutalist architecture:

Brutalist architecture in person:

[pine basalt]

Remember what Overwatch 2 did to Overwatch 1 ?
Think about POE 2 and POE 1 🙂

🙂

[tawny sand]

🙂

[twilit mountain]

Ehhh.
PoE2 failed to deliver expectations. OW2 literally scammed people by not implementing their core (and only) selling point.

[pine basalt]

wasn't the point ^^ POE 2 met all expectations = ruthless with good graphics -- the point was: Do OW 1 still exist? 🙂

[twilit mountain]

Uh... I'm not exactly sure what you're saying ngl.

[sand wigeon]

PoE2 is worse than ruthless, and OW2 literally lied.

PoE2 failed to meet expectations. The existence of OW2 was a lie and removed OW1 from the store.

One of these is very different from the other.

[tawny sand]

Is Last Epoch gonna be the Marvel Rivals to PoE2's Overwatch 2? We'll find out on the 17th!

My bet's on Tower of Kalemenvo being the First Descendant to D4's Warframe though

while Grim Dawn's Rise of Nations cooks in the background, oblivious to Titan Quest 2's Age of Empires 4 ya feel me

[desert jasper]

I hated every part of that

[tawny sand]

lol

[past breach]

I tried the TQ2 demo, it was trash, I'm not worried about it

[desert jasper]

I wish i could've tried it tbh
but they didn't give me access

[tawny sand]

it was okay, i don't have much of an opinion on it whether positive or negative

[maiden widget]

Why would you be worried at all it's just another option

Options are good

[tawny sand]

you mean tribalism is bad?

[crisp onyx]

which part of it?

[fierce moth]

Lol

Hey I'm sure skill trees in tq 2 will better and better at least.

Their combat designs are weak but skill trees are cool in the demo.

[rare hare]

An interesting topic
Don't often have much interest in what Bellular has to say but I won't be sad to see many of these predatory practices essentially getting outlawed from video games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCkUUm0zDLY

[twilit mountain]

My opinion on it was "I can see what they're going for and I like it so far, but I would like to see more, especially on itemization". I quite liked the skill/"passive" system myself.

[fierce moth]

Find a voxel art which as similar as theme of architecture in poe 2

[fierce moth]

Oh yeah... That's cool to see different artists how to make voxel gothic cathedral artworks 🤔

Such a pity that Grey don't see them because she's in Poe 2 server only

Huge difference between pure digital arts and game arts even under the same theme...

[sweet blade]

It's a little concerning, along the 'this is a buff' meme lines.

[sweet blade]

Hmmm... I find it very interesting that GGG is seemingly only realizing now how Implicits can assist in ensuring value floors on items. Now to get LE-style movement speed implicits on boots.

[maiden widget]

That too, but in general I don't get the sentiment as consumer. As long as shit is cool for me I'd say the more the merrier

There's few arpgs I haven't tried

[sweet blade]

Oh dear... I'm guessing 'tribalism' in this case is 'us vs. them' mentalities among game fandoms?

[candid sage]

yes

its particularly strong in arpg games and i really dont understand why at all.

like just go play what you like...and everyone is happy

[maiden widget]

Found it worse in Dota Vs hon Vs lol back in the days but maybe I just ignore most of it now.

I'll play any good arpg gladly

[sweet blade]

Most likely because of their cyclical nature.

[crisp onyx]

not at all, its strong everywhere

[sweet blade]

Another reason is that ARPGs themselves often define themselves in terms of other ARPGs.

You see this also with, for example, the D&D and Pathfinder wars in TTRPGs. Especially from the Pathfinder (which in the ARPG space would be PoE vs. D&D's Diablo 4) side.

[candid sage]

eh. certain genres for sure. mobas are generally toxic...the hero shooter genre (overwatch and such).

but like, god of war fans arent asking for assassins creed to fail.

[viral galleon]

Yeah like we meme on d4 bad but I don't want d4 to be bad. I want it to be good, so I can rotate around different arpgs and having a product to compete against strives ggg and ehg to do better.

[sweet blade]

I have no interest beyond lore in the Diablo series at this point, but I still want it to be good only because of the competition factor.

[crisp onyx]

its not mobas, its any competitive game. gov maybe not battling assasins creed, but console vs pc is eternal

[viral galleon]

I have no interest in diablo lore after how abysmal 3 was, but 4 was surprising that it felt way more serious

[sweet blade]

The thing I like most about Diablo 4 is the focus on Mephisto, given that he's been given virtually no time to 'shine' in previous Diablo titles.

[junior oyster]

4 lore was a joke

[sweet blade]

ON screen, at least.

[junior oyster]

But it's still miles better than d3 lore

[crisp onyx]

i didnt finish d3 campaign