📚┃off-topic

[last cedar]

got us good

[ebon meadow]

I usually ok with Poe content creators even if they edgy like path of math

[crisp onyx]

i would take edgy over overpositive any day

[ebon meadow]

Yea there's some boarders u can't Cross publicly speaking that's for sure but for rest

[last cedar]

Tri said he played 150 hrs on LE? intresting

[ebon meadow]

I have more that that lol and he has more time

[last cedar]

Poe 2 is his wife

[ebon meadow]

But I did get in to it first day of public release

[crisp onyx]

ggg

he was poe1 good before poe2

ist now popular to shit on poe1

[ebon meadow]

Yea good luck with that when game is all over the place at the moment

[sweet blade]

For me, at least, he just can't be critical really at all, at least of GGG.

[crisp onyx]

when poe2 is released*

now all of a sudden its stale and we dont want it and dont make poe2 like poe1

[ebon meadow]

It's a normal rule don't touch Devs they are not making decisions apart from the head ones lol they are still workers like everyone is

[crisp onyx]

me too

i got bored pretty quick and still have more than 150 hours

[sweet blade]

If someone can't be realistic and appraise something fairly, both positively and negatively, their opinion does not matter to me in the least.

[last cedar]

GGG take notes LE has an actual crafting system

[crisp onyx]

thats different topic

and if devs did poor job they are target for criticism as well

only part where i draw the line is personal attacks

[ebon meadow]

Well IG was mostly inspired by Poe they just put a mind of how they can make it better without touching the player base u already have

[crisp onyx]

its nothing like poe

[ebon meadow]

Ohh yea that I agree on sometimes comments feel personal more than professional

[last cedar]

apprently poe 2 endgame is copy of LE endgame

[crisp onyx]

not rly

the only part copied is look

[ebon meadow]

It has similarities yes

[last cedar]

ive been hearing that so i cant confirm

[sweet blade]

PoE2 endgame is closer to PoE1's than LE's.

[ebon meadow]

It only looks like but doesn't feel like

That's the only thing

[crisp onyx]

like they got towers

but they work differently

they got echoes*

but they work differently

etc

[ebon meadow]

I mean first Poe 1 was inspired by D2 ,iron gate took some of the gameplay and character skill development from Poe now Poe 2 got a theme for a better looking atlas from LE

They can't literally copy it they have to make changes

[sweet blade]

PoE (1 or 2) endgame is itemized (the maps/waystones). That by itself makes it quite a bit different.

[ebon meadow]

That is always my point of view just to make it clear lol I m not a dev or a business man xd

[crisp onyx]

d2 didnt have endgame

it was baal farm

[ebon meadow]

Mefisto runs yep

But Poe1 did and they set a very high mark

[crisp onyx]

its way less copied than lets say d4 craft

[ebon meadow]

That's why it's a better successor than D3

[crisp onyx]

inspired maybe but very distantly

[ebon meadow]

Ohh yea it's just glances of thing that reminds u more of it

[crisp onyx]

i dare to say that poe endgame main points are customability and volume

quality of content in vacuum is so-so

[ebon meadow]

The heaviest thing for me is the repetivness of things u do even with atlas and everything else when what supposed to be the inspiration had a single zone end game lmao

[sweet blade]

PoE1's endgame made the grind different enough to avoid the monotony of D2's 'endgame'. That was its major contribution, in terms of the gameplay 'loop'.

[crisp onyx]

idk, i usually finish in like 2 weeks

complete 40/40 if i feel like it

not enough time to get bored

then you get 3~ months break and its good as new

[ebon meadow]

I usually roll 3 character every league because I like variety of builds

[crisp onyx]

i play 1 char per league

[ebon meadow]

So it usually takes me almost 2 month to get bored

[crisp onyx]

but i play things like dancing dervish

sometimes build suck balls and i end my league earlier

[ebon meadow]

I go back to survivals

Still want to push more Conan exile ,arc on my own sometimes rust with friends in monthly wipe

[crisp onyx]

ark was such a nice game

unlucky with developer

[sweet blade]

I feel that nothing is very interesting right now.

[crisp onyx]

untrue

what genres do you play?

[ebon meadow]

But till this day even after a year long fkn league my drug is Poe 1 ,now that they shifted ascendancys completely and going to put them in PL I have content for a year with just one lol

[crisp onyx]

v rising, recently bought shapez 2, rabi-ribi, touhou

[ebon meadow]

It's just such a good surf

[crisp onyx]

plenty to choose from

[sweet blade]

Oh, I probably should have said 'to me'... I'll freely admit to being in a large funk right now.

[crisp onyx]

but do you actively look for things?

there are times when you just dont rly want to play, and then everything is uninteresting

[sweet blade]

...

[sweet blade]

This is as close to the truth as I can get, probably...

[crisp onyx]

understandable you just need some heavy crack like factorio or something

[sweet blade]

Bounced off of Factorio hard. TBF I played Satisfactory first.

[crisp onyx]

played both but heavily prefer factorio

building and scaling is unhandy in satisfactory

and in factorio you can scale till your cpu send you best regards

[sweet blade]

Better now with blueprints, but sure...

[crisp onyx]

how about dwarf fortress?

[sweet blade]

I tried it but not for a while... and not for long..

[crisp onyx]

i take it not biggest colony sim fan

[sweet blade]

Actually, I should be, it's so weird.

I design and build simulation models for a living, and they're basically simulation models that's a bit more interactive than the ones I build.

But... yeah, hard to explain.

[crisp onyx]

maybe thats why you dont lol

dont wanna work a second job

my top 5 by playtime

[sweet blade]

But then, explain Satisfactory..? 😉

[crisp onyx]

4/5 didnt launch for a long time

[crisp onyx]

its more of a cozy game

stardew valley then maybe? xd

[sweet blade]

I guess my point is that Satisfactory is a little less of a simulation, but factory automation falls squarely under Industrial engineering, and I've built many models of the space. So it's weird.

I do like CK2 and CK3, and they also fall into the sim supergenre.

[crisp onyx]

paint the map game

couldnt get into it

[sweet blade]

CK3 is not really 'paint the map', at least when compared to a 4X game.

The EU franchise is much much closer to that.

[crisp onyx]

couldnt get into EU either

but not that i tried hard

[sweet blade]

Never played it myself, but CK3 is something that LOOKS like a map painter when it is in fact something very different.

[ebon meadow]

I forgot I had to watch footy

[sweet blade]

TT interview has begun, apparently?

[ebon meadow]

Ark can give u thousands of hours as single player without mods XD

I was having fun learning mutations before poe2

[sweet blade]

Let's talk forecasting models! 🙂

[light cave]

Yeah I'm just not sure how poe2 devs think they can keep getting away with not focusing performance.

[last cedar]

Interview starting tune in

GASP LE has crafting?? compared to poe 2?

[sweet blade]

@severe niche Come join us here and Vent to your heart's content. 🙂

[last cedar]

another poe 2 player comes to join the club

[severe niche]

Oh, missed this thread. Cheers

[sweet blade]

No worries; the mods will ask you to move here about PoE2 stuff anyway. 🙂

[severe niche]

450h in LE
roughly 120h combined in PoE 1 and 2.

Naw I'm an LE stan 😂 Just need to fill my ARPG fix

[sweet blade]

Welcome. 🙂

So... show me on your character model where PoE2 touched you. 😉

[severe niche]

In my soul. Idk where that is physically.

It just feels so bad to play 😥

[feral plover]

same, I planned my whole april month around POE 2 and last epoch because I thought "let's get a whole month of clicking that mouse"

I'm like the guy from the narco meme

[sweet blade]

Second time today that 'where is your soul in your body' has come up in two widely separate places. How weird.

[severe niche]

Going through mice like nobodys business 😂

[feral plover]

^^

[severe niche]

It's a sign. Of what, nobody knows.

[sweet blade]

Oh sure, yeah, I buy mice by the dozen... generally get them from companies selling for medical experimentation. ...;)

[severe niche]

I'd trade a kidney for a decent mouse.

[sweet blade]

Are they that hard to source?

[severe niche]

Kidneys or mice?

[feral plover]

insert joke about US tarriff right about now

[last cedar]

spreads the word tell poe 2 players if they want druid play LE instead

[sweet blade]

Mice. The issue with kidneys isn't so much sourcing as extraction. 😉

[severe niche]

Funny enough, kindeys and decent gaming mice have a similar problem. There's plenty to go around but the cost can be prohibitive. If you're willingto stay within legal bounds 👀

[severe niche]

LE druid is so cooool! Swarm mode underrated as hell.

[crisp onyx]

1lp guaranteed slam pog

[sweet blade]

Well, given that my brother's 30th birthday present to himself was kidney failure... forgive me if I disagree with you.

[severe niche]

That's rough buddy 😬 Not the best birthday present.

[sweet blade]

Just saying... your example was not the best, at least for me. 😉

[severe niche]

Exception proves the rule?

[feral plover]

(not american here : how can these people can be excited about everysingle thing they talk about all damn day ?)

[severe niche]

🤷

[sweet blade]

I don't watch Tri particularly because he seems to have only one setting.

[feral plover]

Seems tiring

[sweet blade]

Would be for me, but then I'm dour, taciturn, and antisocial.

[last cedar]

tri audience is mostly poe 2 players they prob just amazed how crafting works with LE

[feral plover]

lol

(I have like 10000 hours of POE in the last 12 years, so, yeah, I was amazed by LE craft first time I got how it worked)

(but the filter was the thing that got me addicted)

[last cedar]

GASP your telling me i can craft in LE and not play slot machine instead?

[crisp onyx]

poe players were conditioned so badly filter was all it took

[sweet blade]

The difference in Vision on Crafting between EHG and GGG is... pretty stark.

[feral plover]

I swear

[sweet blade]

Hey, Florida sherriff, right?

[last cedar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G54yUNj6ZHk

[sweet blade]

Neat!

[crisp onyx]

'chat is so happy it makes me eerie' 🥲

chat must not be so happy past few days

[sweet blade]

Did Tri say that?

[crisp onyx]

yes

[sweet blade]

Huh... didn't expect him to say something even that mild against PoE2.

[teal flame]

I think he just likes to be positive in general

[sweet blade]

My point is that that could be construed negatively.

I've had statement tamer than that called negative.

[teal flame]

Fair

[sweet blade]

It was said positively, so maybe that's it...

[light forge]

interview starts soon

[sweet blade]

Which? TT interview started 40 minutes ago?

[last cedar]

GGG interview with Ziz

[feral plover]

there's a ziz interview for GGG

questions that will be asked is here btw : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZUv8k4aE-So7ibFcNGcYdqJmWUhwr7KoP8dk6TB0080/edit?tab=t.0

[sweet blade]

Ah... sorry, if I'm not watching the TT interview, I don't think you could get me to watch that one...

[last cedar]

that interview will be intresting

chat prob going be insane

[sweet blade]

Oh, yeah, it will be disgusting... this is their first interview after 0.2.0 released, right?

[last cedar]

YUP

[sweet blade]

Chat will likely be have to be turned off.

[feral plover]

honestly he's not really doing anything, EHG staff is doing 95% of talking

(but I respect your feelings ^^ if you need a summary, let us know)

[sweet blade]

That's fair, but I didn't know any of that going in.

Oh, General is covering it well, but thank you for the offer.

[last cedar]

Welp Tri said in the beginning of stream he will be play cough glazing season 2 and making it to end game

[sweet blade]

It would be hypocritical of me to expect instant knowledge when I refuse to attend...

[sweet blade]

On release day?

[last cedar]

Yes he has a day off so he will be playing it lmao

[sweet blade]

Well, that's good.

[sweet blade]

Yep, quite nice.

[teal flame]

Yeah, it's gonna make your failed nemesis and 1lp items much more valuable

[sweet blade]

I should think so.

[teal flame]

We saw that one in the trailer and it'll be very nice for sure

[feral plover]

(switching to GGG itw)

[keen beacon]

jesus christ im happy with the devs we have on LE

[feral plover]

(I couldn't have changed the vibe of the room so hard if I tried lol)

[keen beacon]

what a shit show this interview is goin

[feral plover]

yeah the atmosphere I was in a minute ago "new qol, new craft options, we listen to you"

back to "you don't know what you want"

[keen beacon]

yeah its insane

more than a decade of experience

wtf

[sweet blade]

Someone should reply, 'You don't know what you're doing.'

[keen beacon]

i mean how you answer shit like that with more than a decade of experience on games jesus christ

[last cedar]

Hey can yall send some LE devs to GGG studios we need help

[feral plover]

ziz is doing good on the itw though

good for him

[sweet blade]

That's good to hear. Was worried he was going to be softballing it.

[crisp onyx]

holy

[feral plover]

me too if I'm honest

[keen beacon]

same

[crisp onyx]

its already up?

[feral plover]

yep

it's so tense already haha

[crisp onyx]

damn

[last cedar]

sheesh they still cookign?

[crisp onyx]

will watch tomorrow

[last cedar]

im watch in a min

[gilded elm]

I tuned in just now. I think I just tuned into Jonathan gaslighting, basically he was talking about how the skill ceiling is very high and people struggle when they don't understand everything yet.

[sweet blade]

Just... holy cow.

[last cedar]

Johnathan's Vision

[feral plover]

sometime having such a macro vision is a bad thing, he's really seeing the game from a holistic way and that's cool

[last cedar]

haaa what a joke

[sweet blade]

I imagine the chat in the GGG interview has already gone into Supernova.

[feral plover]

but not when some fundamentals are not good yet

I hid it instantly when joining the live tbh

[gilded elm]

Jonathan seems flustered.

[last cedar]

of course he is i bet he been stressed with everything thats been going on

[sweet blade]

He's never had Chris's presence.

And I meant that quite sincerely, and without rancor. Chris could handle interviews like this. Jonathan is much less suited to them.

[last cedar]

Jonathan losing his aura

[gilded elm]

Mark seems much more level headed.

[feral plover]

he has less running in it

[sweet blade]

He never really had one, at least with me.

[teal flame]

Macro vision is super important, BUT you have to be able to have people with you who can drill down into the specifics to tell you why they are a good or bad idea.

Like the IDEA of "slow, methodical ARPG combat" is good, but the implementation in POE2 is missing a bunch of aspects for it right now.

[feral plover]

Oh you're preaching to the choir, don't worry

[sweet blade]

They're not just missing implementation points. They're making positive implementation decisions that make the vision impossible.

[teal flame]

Well, we've just seen so many games because boring nothingburgers because no one has a vision for what the game should be.

[gilded elm]

lmao PoE2 monsters are playing PoE1 against players

[feral plover]

yeah, having a vision isn't a bad thing, to me GGG is trailblazing for the rest of the industry trying to do something no one did before

mad respect for that

they're not there yet

[sweet blade]

I don't really give them respect until they deliver.

[feral plover]

yeah I work in video games so I can respect trying and failing

[teal flame]

I mean, at least they're trying

[last cedar]

Yeahhhh i need results

[feral plover]

which is 99% of work when you do video games

[sweet blade]

I saw that Reddit post being a Thank-you from a PoE2 white mob for buffing them so much.

[feral plover]

but I get where you come from

[last cedar]

at end of the day its all about results

[feral plover]

yeah it's only the second patch ^^

[sweet blade]

I can respect 'trying their best and failing', actually. GGG isn't trying.

[feral plover]

they have months before they call it "1.0"

[gilded elm]

Oh god, I think Jonathan is now officially sabotaging the interview. Mark was making some headway lol

[feral plover]

what I don't respect to be honest is how they communicate with people

there's a lot of tension

[last cedar]

might be a while before its a full release

[feral plover]

being level headed is a must (and must be so hard after spending the weekend working and reading insults)

[teal flame]

Early access should be about big swinging changes to see if they work, and that's what happened with .2. It just... really didn't work.

[sweet blade]

Ego is the brand killer. 🙂

[sweet blade]

It also should have happened much sooner.

[teal flame]

ehhh, I think they didn't want to have a release without major content like a new class, underbaked as it was.

[feral plover]

they're talking in black and white

[teal flame]

They definitely should've nerfed the outlier bs earlier though, for sure.

[crisp onyx]

treating it as a league also didnt help

[feral plover]

there's like an ocean between what jonathan talks about and what ziz is actually saying

[sweet blade]

Well, I'm thinking of things like buffing crossbows... why did that have to wait?

[last cedar]

i still tihnk 0.2.0 was too rushed

maybe they had deadlines

[feral plover]

oh that's a given, you don't push an update where you can infinitely run something like ritual

or push something and an ascendancy doesn't appear ?

[teal flame]

Or push a class that has an abosulte trash leveling experience?

[feral plover]

they've been burned out for so long

[gilded elm]

I don't really need to watch anymore. The direction of this interview is clear. This is the vision.

[feral plover]

Hmm maybe not

[last cedar]

well they made more work for themselves they been pushing patches everyday even on weekends

[feral plover]

maybe we won't have an apology of a breakthrough moment

[sweet blade]

If the deadline existed, the question is... who created it?

[feral plover]

but ziz is drilling stuff

[sweet blade]

I think I underestimated Ziz's anger when he gave 0.2 a 4 or 5 rating.

[teal flame]

Tencent, probably. Or just the players. If they had gone too much longer without a POE1 or 2 league, they would've exploded.

[feral plover]

I actually believe JOnathan's agressive attitude made ziz angry lol

which is good as he's so chill usually

[last cedar]

what a mess

[feral plover]

if it was rue they would be taunting their mothers at this point

[sweet blade]

I almost think it's Tencent, because I can't believe another month or so of waiting would have been worse than what actually was released.

[teal flame]

I mean, doubling down on a super unfun vision is not a great way to make big players happy

[gilded elm]

Jonathan has been extremely unyielding throughout the interview. I don't think anyone should expect significant concessions here.

[feral plover]

yeah but it's the long game we're playing here

[teal flame]

It's gotta be. We're at the end/start of fiscal years right now. Gotta do those releases and get those monies right around then.

[last cedar]

yeah....

cha-ching

[sweet blade]

Wasn't aware of FY ends... those vary widely in the States, so...

[feral plover]

even if Johnathan stands his ground for two hours, who knows what will happens later ? maybe someone on the inside dares to criticize the vision a bit more louder...

gotta keep the hope

[teal flame]

A lot of FYs end in April. It's also often Bonus time for big companies

[feral plover]

(it ends in march)

[teal flame]

That's why there's like 50 games releasing this month

[feral plover]

at the end of march, not april

for video games company I mean

[sweet blade]

I was under the impression that in the States, most companies FY either coincided with the calendar year, or matched the US federal government's.

[feral plover]

that's why monster hunter wilds was rushed out of the gate in february

[gilded elm]

I can't believe Jonathan is actually regurgitating the same exact crap Blizzard was in the early campfire talks regarding Kiss-Curse game design. Blizzard got so much heat for it and had a better response to it than GGG lol

[teal flame]

oh?

[sweet blade]

Who would be willing to risk their job in this market?

[gilded elm]

The whole "upside/downside" thing.

[lost prairie]

Kiss-whatnow?

[last cedar]

what happened months ago when ppl were glazing GGG saying they were the best company in the gaming industry?

[gilded elm]

or as it's known in game design, Kiss-Curse.

[last cedar]

was this when chris was here?

rip

[feral plover]

well, I've been working in games enough to assure you you don't get fired for one fight with your lead

[teal flame]

Nah, players just need one good release and they'll be saying it again.

[feral plover]

it might happens, but fighting is like a daily occurence when a prod isn't doing well

[last cedar]

literally what happens in every company

[gilded elm]

Basically Jonathan defending why every "upside" comes with a "downside" for balance.

[last cedar]

when things go wrong u can forget about all the good things

[sweet blade]

On the one hand, possibly. OTOH, if Jonathan is seriously thinking of risking their entire studio on this Vision... what's one person's job? Of course, NZ probably has good protections.

[teal flame]

Sometimes people forget that opportunity cost is a downside.

[gilded elm]

Yep, it's so tunnel vision thinking.

[sweet blade]

WAS JUST TYPING THAT.

[feral plover]

guess I'm a bit less cynical than you on that :p

[gilded elm]

Blizzard has this same issue early on with D4.

They actually had a BETTER response to this than GGG, they actually listened

[last cedar]

can't wait to laugh when ppl start kissing GGG asses when they turn this around

[sweet blade]

I also think that an internal critic who would be emboldened by this interview probably had already voiced their concerns before, so it wouldn't be a 'first offense'.

[teal flame]

IDK with the current state of the game industry, a lot of people probably won't be speaking out

[sweet blade]

Quite likely.

[lost prairie]

People get fired for less

[feral plover]

that's true, sometimes a point isn't understood the first time around

Oh, jonathan admitting they're terrible at communication

(thinking he's blaming the gamers for not understanding)

[sweet blade]

Ugh... I hate this attitude. 'I know I'm right, so if you don't like what I'm saying, there must be an issue with how it's being communicated.'

[gilded elm]

Jonathan is losing the narrative. I wonder how he plans to reconcile this disconnect with the playerbase and his company's need to actually generate profit lol

[sweet blade]

Milk PoE1 for money to pay for PoE2.

[gilded elm]

That would be smart, except they're not even doing that right now.

[feral plover]

poe 2 already made so much more money than poe in any time frame haha

[gilded elm]

They're letting PoE1 die haha

[feral plover]

they said they got back all the money poured in developing poe 2 months ago

the difference of success between the two games is so huge

[gilded elm]

That was a one time buy in for early access and it's great to recoup all of that.

But PoE2 is a dead game moving forward as long as this philosophy continues.

[feral plover]

yeah but they dont have 60$ mtx pack like LE, they have the 500 ones

[sweet blade]

You mean following a standard business model repays development? I'm shocked!

[feral plover]

you should be

VAST majority of games coming out don't break even

and never do

[gilded elm]

Because the cost of development has gone up, but the retail cost of games largely hasn't gone up. Just look at how much games sold for a decade ago vs today, inflation has had almost no impact on the retail cost of video games.

[sweet blade]

Sure. The vast majority of all businesses are the same. Doesn't mean that I don't think a standard business model is better than MTX-driven models.

[sweet blade]

I think an even bigger consideration is that people don't have money for luxuries like video games as much anymore.

[feral plover]

cue nintendo and 90€ games ^^

[feral plover]

oh I didn't get you were talking about the whole model, my bad

[gilded elm]

A bit surprising games haven't even reached this price already given that console games have been $50 a decade ago.

Man, this interview is messy.

[feral plover]

yeah

[gilded elm]

Gaslight central. I'm done

[feral plover]

I'm happy honestly, I was scared it would be a spin doctor PR stunt bullshit everyone is happy

[last cedar]

is tencent somewhat concerned? april 17th they will be losing moneyyyyy

[feral plover]

and it's a real gamer trying to get a point across

and they don't listen (yet)

[sweet blade]

Supply for games has become much higher, Demand is fairly elastic, and inflation. I would have thought game prices would go up, but it's not hard to believe that they have been holding steady.

[feral plover]

lol you're joking but in reality they won't lose a single currency :p

[gilded elm]

Bold of you to assume Tencent hasn't invested in EHG 🙂

[sweet blade]

Do you think that it's Ziz is affecting them at all? Or that he's a gamer? Dev studios have been showing their contempt for their audiences for over a decade now.

[feral plover]

I mean both games are so not playing on the same level field now, tri itw had like 1500 viewers ? ziz is nearing 40k

[feral plover]

ohhh I see, that's where I'm really not agreeing with you here. There ARE some AAA studios being really condescending I agree, but not all. My job makes me have a feet in game dev and a feet as a "regular" player and there's so much confusion when game devs try to speak to people playing

To me they're not showing contempt right now, we're seeing two worlds trying to discuss but they don't know how

[teal flame]

Sounds like you might be a fellow QA person

[feral plover]

kind of yeah

[gilded elm]

I like visionaries. I just don't like being gaslighted. There's a fine line.

[feral plover]

doing audits and playtest for the last 8 years, had some really great time and projects that didn't sell at all lol but anyways

That's why Mark sounds nicer, he comes from where we come from and started as a fan living his dream

Jonathan founded the company

[sweet blade]

Heh, people really don't like my audits of projects. Of course, when these people do not know the very very basics of software engineering (not that they 'should', academically)... it can get messy.

[last cedar]

Pressure makes diamonds keep giving GGG that pressure they need to do better

[sweet blade]

Pressure also makes messy implosions.

[gilded elm]

inb4 Jonathan takes a break and Mark becomes the big guy 😛

[sweet blade]

I have more faith in Mark than Jonathan. This is a buff.

[gilded elm]

I mean yeah Mark is clearly not as invested in the purity of whatever Jonathan's "vision" is

[feral plover]

My working theory is that POE 2 having two directors instead of only one like poe 1 is that Chris got burned out of the whole job and need retirement now, so having two can make a bad cop good cop situation beside sharing the pressure

[sweet blade]

Well, if you believe Mark, he was the one who advocated for the currency exchange in Settlers League. That right there is a green flag.

[gilded elm]

Everyone is getting annoyed at Jonathan chiming in with his takes after Mark finishes saying something reasonable lol

[feral plover]

if the tree is supposed to be supporting your gear, then the gear need to be better

[lost prairie]

I mean it can be

[sweet blade]

Oh yeah, hot take after hot take after hot take.

[lost prairie]

RNG willing

[sweet blade]

The tree should be there to express the floor of power available to the character. What I'm hearing is that floor is much lower in the Vision than I expected.

[lost prairie]

I mean, it does sound like POE2 is trying to be Dark Souls without understanding what made Dark Souls actually fun

[feral plover]

that's why their vision is so fascinating, put aside the state of the game, they're trying to fuse two kind of games that are so opposite on a philosophical level

[sweet blade]

That's certainly one way of putting it.

[feral plover]

it's like poe 2 is "ok we have oil, it's cool, we have water it's cool too, we want to mix them"

[sweet blade]

They're not understanding where the compromises need to happen.

[feral plover]

I disagree

it's one patch

[lost prairie]

Yeah
Dark Souls is difficult, but it has fun combat for a simple reason
Everything is slow and methodical (sort of)

[sweet blade]

For just one example, increasing damage while decreasing defense does NOT lead to Souls-like gameplay.

[feral plover]

yeah and you play dark souls once, maybe a fe wmore time if you speedrun and so on

[gilded elm]

Jonathan doesn't understand. He's been completely unyielding. Jonathan makes no compromises. He doesn't care that you feelings collide with this vision. That just means your feelings are wrong.

[feral plover]

but no one will ask you to go back to elden ring every 3 month

[crisp onyx]

dark souls is 1v1

mostly

[feral plover]

and play it all other again

[lost prairie]

Also that

[crisp onyx]

fk dual bosses anyway

[lost prairie]

Getting ganked is a death sentence

Ornstein and Smough notwithstanding

[sweet blade]

It makes you wonder why they even agreed to do the interview.

[feral plover]

that's why having rushing monster at you on poe 2 feels so bad

[teal flame]

This is the key I think. They need to make the campaign experience super FUN so that replaying it isn't a slog.

Like, don't make me wait until level 50 to unlock the key abilities for my build. That's WAY too late in the game.

[feral plover]

oh yeah, skills tied to a weapon is SO bad game design

[sweet blade]

They tried that. And, in fact, succeeded in 0.1, I think. But it's not as fun the second time. Certainly isn't going to be fun the 12th time.

[feral plover]

I understand why they do that on an animation level

but it's SO bad for build diversity

[gilded elm]

Mark is the only thing holding it together. Most people seem quite annoyed at Jonathan, especially whenever he chimes in with a dumb take just as Mark has finished smoothing over whatever thing is being discussed and demonstrating some semblance of competence.

[teal flame]

I don't even mind them being tied to skills, but they should make some cross-weapon that can use multiple skills. That just makes sense

Kind of like caster skills

[lost prairie]

Considering the worst and most annoying enemies in soulslikes are dogs, and other fast rushdown foes like the wheel skeletons
Yeah

[feral plover]

we made fun of bad diablo 4 trees, but the weapons skill tree is basically identical to d4

exactly haha

you know it

[last cedar]

poe 2 discord is in shambles

[gilded elm]

PoE2 Discord is also basically: Mark good. Jonathan bad.

[lost prairie]

Like
You can probably make an ARPG with souls-like combat, but you can't have that with enemies rushing you in huge swarms at top speed.

[feral plover]

Right now, we know putting a bit of diablo into dark souls works, it's called Nioh

[sweet blade]

Yep. Was saying this since Patch notes.

[feral plover]

the reverse doesn't exist yet

poe 2 is supposed to be that

[teal flame]

No Rest for the Wicked is doing a pretty good job at this

[lost prairie]

An ARPG where you face like one to two enemies per room but each is an existential threat does sound conceptually fun

[lost prairie]

Never heard of it, what's it like?

[teal flame]

It's a souls ARPG

[feral plover]

Haha I so don't like that game

[teal flame]

They have a big update coming at the end of the month that looks sick

[feral plover]

boss behaviour is so bad

[gilded elm]

NRFTW is a Souls-like ARPG but if you look at it from a spectrum, it's closer to being a Souls-like than an ARPG IMO

[feral plover]

but the next update looks cool I agree

[teal flame]

But a core aspect of ARPGS is blasting tons of enemies, that's why the bullet heaven genre got created

And soulslike combat is fighting a couple enemies to the death

[feral plover]

yeah power fantasy, numbers going up, gauges filling up

the holy trinity of dopamine

[teal flame]

Thing is, the audiovisual feedback in POE2 is excellent when you blow enemies up

[gilded elm]

LOL this is for PoE2, nice job guys. Proud of you all.

Guess a lot of people added the tag and it became popular lmao

[feral plover]

oh it's funny, I don't have the same tags in my language

[sweet blade]

Is PoE2 still clinging onto Mixed reviews?

[feral plover]

yep

[gilded elm]

Yeah, still 2% away from Mostly Negative

[feral plover]

mixed / somewhat positive

sorry for the sudden french in the chat

haha

[gilded elm]

I think in a few hours we'll see it dip into Mostly Negative (39%)

Dammit, Steam signed me out in the store.

It's Tuesday maintenance day for Steam, so makes sense I guess

[lost prairie]

Steam's-yeah

Man, the 17th can't come soon enough

[feral plover]

yep

[sweet blade]

True enough.

[lost prairie]

I'm still unsure if I should play the game now or wait, especially since I want to play Sentinel
But that's too on-topic for this channel

[feral plover]

the audacity !

[sweet blade]

I just ... cannot believe the audacity of Jonathan...

[gilded elm]

I wanted to like PoE2, but doesn't sound like I'll be able to with Jonathan's uncompromising vision.

[teal flame]

Do it, learn the basics before the season so you can know what you like when the season starts.

[crisp onyx]

its just that jonathan is more of a speaking head

[lost prairie]

Fair enough, I am having somewhat of an issue where none of the classes I've played so far kinda 'clicked' with me

[crisp onyx]

iirc they are both on equal footing for this mess

[gilded elm]

No, look at this dynamic between Mark and Jonathan. There's no mistake here who is the boss of who.

[feral plover]

Last Epoch is great, but it lacks the oompf we had in diablo 3 or poe 2

feedback are not there yet

[crisp onyx]

just play warpath

[sweet blade]

You would think that the speaking head, as you say, would be the one trying to calm everyone down, while the technical person would get angry at the implied issues with his design.

[lost prairie]

I don't know what that is

[feral plover]

cyclone

[gilded elm]

It's painfully obvious that Jonathan is Mark's boss in this dynamic.

[lost prairie]

I've not played D3, but I can feel that, the game is a little... Pool-noodley

[feral plover]

fanfiction time ? he's a top ?

[crisp onyx]

ill watch it tomorrow

[sweet blade]

I find Hammer Throw slightly more fun to start Sentinel with than Warpath (unless I'm doing a Warpath build).

[crisp onyx]

dont want to start midway

[feral plover]

yep, that's right

BUT, they come from a very different place, maybe one day we'll have that too ?

[lost prairie]

Especially since in PoE2 0.1 I played a Rapid Fire crossbow build which uhhh

Wasn't good, but it was a straight 10 on vibes

[feral plover]

yeah they nailed it on feedbacks and impact

[teal flame]

yeah, vibes from poe2 are excellent

[feral plover]

the first time i did a rolling slam on my warrior ? pure bliss

[teal flame]

They just have to make the actual gameplay fun while doing it

[feral plover]

even if it took 4 hours to do the animation

[sweet blade]

Not for me. I think I got stunned out of it and died. 😉

[feral plover]

haha

[teal flame]

The skill that felt the BEST that I played with in .1 was Plasma Blast. Shame it takes you 10 hours of playing worse skills to get it.

[feral plover]

don't know this one

[gilded elm]

Yeah seems like PoE2 Discord basically feels the same way I do, so I guess this is how most people are feeling right now towards this interview. Jonathan has lost the peoples' support on this patch lol

[feral plover]

perfect strike is amazing as well

[feral plover]

bad cop good cop ^^

[lost prairie]

I was told I can turn the Spriggan into a machine gun, so I'm tempted to try that out

[teal flame]

Yeah, I love the concept of the "perfect timing" skills. Snipe felt super good too

[feral plover]

oh right that too

but the feeling of it is a mix of animation, vfx AND sfx

sound fx in LE are just "okay" right now

[sweet blade]

Glad someone likes them. 🙂

[feral plover]

sound is everything

(to me at least)

[teal flame]

LE has gotten better over time though. The more recent skills we've gotten are a lot better than older ones.

[sweet blade]

The LE skill with the best 'feel' to me is Erasing Strike. Anyone else?

[feral plover]

totally !

that's why I'm really hopeful because it means they're aware of this

and trying to reduce the gap with new recruits

[teal flame]

Just like the art. Did you see the weaver areas Karv was in during the interview today? it was gorgeous

And I mean, that capybara right?

[feral plover]

the one with thunder ? or the inside one ?

[teal flame]

The inside one

[feral plover]

both were amazing though haha

I remember beta environment in LE and oh boy

they've gone such a long way

[teal flame]

Look at this thing, it looks soo cool

[feral plover]

yeah and the fx is neat as well

even the little vfx in the UI element when he was destroying items to reroll them

[teal flame]

Ah, here's a better one

[feral plover]

right

[teal flame]

That room just looks awesome. I'm loving their more modern art

[feral plover]

yeah it gives me warframe vibes if you know the game

[teal flame]

Yeah

[candid sage]

what is this...LE in off topic? XD

[teal flame]

Haven't played it in forever, but I see the thought

[feral plover]

ggg itw is boring now, no more fighting :(

we have to talk about a cool game then right ?

[candid sage]

Jonathan is having a TERRIBLE interview. Mark is trying his best to save it

[teal flame]

We've been talking about how POE2 nails the 'vibe' of skills and how LE's art and stuff has been getting better over time

[sweet blade]

I feel like I'm missing some aesthetic sense. I can tell the difference between bad and not-bad art, but not between meh art and great art.

[sweet blade]

Nothing in that statement is a surprise.

[candid sage]

most definately agree. game looks tons better just since 1.0

[feral plover]

what would you say is like the best looking game or the one you loved the most @sweet blade ?

(no wrong answers of course !)

[teal flame]

Yeah, lots of skills aren't "there" yet as far as feel, but I'm excited for the updates coming with Season 2

[feral plover]

yeah and feeling / feedback / grittiness is in the details, we'll have it down the line I'm sure

[sweet blade]

... none spring to mind. And that's the issue. I could cite Satisfactory because it's very 'clean', but I don't get 'pulled into' the world very much.

[teal flame]

I mean, you might just not have an art brain, and that's totally okay

[feral plover]

I see, I love satisfactory aesthetic

[sweet blade]

I would say that I like higher color saturation, in general.

E.g., I remember not understanding how people would say that WoW has bad art and FFXI had good art.

For me, graphic design in a game is very binary: it's either 'good enough' or 'I can't play this'.

[feral plover]

when they both were terrible

we're on agreement here 😏

[sweet blade]

They both fell into 'good enough' for me.

[teal flame]

I'm that way with some things. I can't play minecraft on the default graphics

[feral plover]

hmm, then readability of a screen in path of exile must be your vision of hell ?

cause you don't know what's going on

I know I hate the game for that

[sweet blade]

Minecraft is fine for me.

[sweet blade]

Actually, I'm pretty good at reading screens in PoE... I have very good twitch reflexes.

[feral plover]

I need that then, most of the time i die to something I haven't seen that just goes "pop one shot"

[sweet blade]

E.g., I didn't play Delirium League much, but not because of the uniform color palette... I didn't like the constant pressure to run mirrors.

[feral plover]

Yeah I see

[sweet blade]

It might have to do with my very severe myopia.

[teal flame]

Nah, lots of people hate delirium because it's so bland

[sweet blade]

Sure, but I don't. The anxiety was too much for me.

[teal flame]

Fair

I don't like timed mechanics because I like playing more relaxed in ARPGs

[sweet blade]

Yeah, when they added the Keystone that gave you perpetual Delirium but no Orbs or Splinters, I played the HELL out that.

[crisp onyx]

try grenades or summoner with flamewalls

i'm not the best but no way in hell you can reflex that

[sweet blade]

In PoE2? I did, at least the grenades... in 0.1, after learning the attack patterns.

Those Marsh Hags were the worst for me, though.

[crisp onyx]

idk, my reflexes are decent i believe but that thing is unreadable

[sweet blade]

Oh, yeah, those grenades were obnoxious, NGL... and I did die to them, but mainly when they were fired from off-screen. (Classic example of the failure of their Vision, BTW.)

[feral plover]

well past midnight here, will check the rest of the itw tomorrow thanks for a great evening and discussion ^^

[teal flame]

I'm not sure why they continually give things range that is further than the edge of your screen.

[sweet blade]

Because they can't square the circle. I honestly feel like they believe that they can add Souls-like elements into their ARPG without compromising on any ARPG systems.

And that's just a fool's errand.

[teal flame]

Yeah, the fact that they aren't willing to compromise on some things is the worst

[sweet blade]

Y'know, their level design is more akin to a WoW dungeon or raid than a Souls-like.

Which is also, probably, a lot more doable.

[teal flame]

Yeah, it's interesting because the soulslike formula is a lot more than slow, methodical combat. Like it's level design, respawning theories, etc. Like, if you want to give us one life per map, that's totally fine. But you ALSO have to make it so that if you're going to die, you can predict and avoid dangerous things.

If you're going to make your maps gigantic, they need to also be navigable (at a reasonable speed) and have shortcuts to allow you to double back without issue (checkpoints solves this)

Like, I could see them solving the "maps are too big" issue, by making characters automatically "sprint" after being out of combat for 8 seconds, and you get 30-50% more movespeed while sprinting.

[sweet blade]

That's a solution, yes, but do you honestly think they'd do that?

[teal flame]

Would they? Probably not. SHOULD they? Yes.

[last cedar]

Their solution was more checkpoints

[teal flame]

Well, I can see more checkpoints being a quick fix for now. But long term it's just bad

[sweet blade]

My solution would be to make Space Bar a Quicksilver Flask effect when you're NOT in the presence of a Rare or Boss, and Dodge-roll if you are.

[teal flame]

Quicksilver flask is just sprint with extra steps, tbh.

Make it its own mechanic, and give every character an animation for it.

[sweet blade]

Sure, but my point was on-demand rather than constant... but with a small tradeoff, because if you sprint into a rare, you won't be able to dodge roll for a second or so.

[teal flame]

Yeah, I'd prefer it not be on demand though. If players can control it, they can break it, heh

[light cave]

@dusty lake I don't know what htey're thinking with itemization though.

[teal flame]

Make it a core system that's it's own thing

[light cave]

its so bad

you essentially have to get lcuky so many times during camapign

[sweet blade]

I don't really care if they break it, in a raid-based design. 🙂 Trash mobs are there to be trash. 🙂

[dusty lake]

poe?

[light cave]

yeah

[teal flame]

Itemization is so bad. They want 80% of your power to come from items, but then won't guarante that you'll get good items.

Which means there's a good chance you just get unlucky and the whole game sucks

[light cave]

like they expect a way above average wepaon in campaign

and also have super specific rolls you need on weapons

[teal flame]

Yeah

[dusty lake]

it really depends on build, for me i dont like pulling the slot machine for my gear i prefer some sort of deterministic crafting.

[light cave]

which is f unny because they removed that restriction on passive tree

the weapon mods are jsut bad now

[dusty lake]

the thing that gets me the most about poe2 is you need to find what they want you to play

you cant really go about it on your own, there are just some skills that are bad and wont ever see real play

[light cave]

nah mate you really don't.

You just need to use the weapon swap feature to do off meta stuff.

[desert jasper]

Looks like I was right in expecting that interview to be gaslight central

[dusty lake]

i mean that in terms of skills

[light cave]

I'm playing explosive spear rake, retreat

[sweet blade]

I actually wouldn't say gaslight central so much as talking to a brick wall. 😉

[dusty lake]

thats like the pure meta build rn

[light cave]

No

no its not

[dusty lake]

my hunt is a frozen crit build with glacial spear and twisters

[light cave]

its very very off meta

bloodhunt rake is the meta version

[dusty lake]

thats all i see chat talking about is explo spear or rake

[desert jasper]

brick wall that also tries to tell you are wrong

[sweet blade]

Sure, and I wasn't saying that there was no gaslighting... just that the brick wall part was more evident.

[light cave]

yeah theyr'e used in difgferent builds @dusty lake

[dusty lake]

regardless those are the best scaling skills

and theres not much you or i can do to change that

[light cave]

no? explosive spear is legit used to detonate storm spears

[desert jasper]

Anyway, back to sleep

[light cave]

also huntress in general "Isn't very good."

theres a reason most of her skills got buffed

[crisp onyx]

tbh you need to be unlucky to not get anything

unfun part is that 90% of you upgrades comes from vendors and gamba

[teal flame]

Problem is that the only upgrade that REALLY matters for a lot of classes is your weapon

And if you don't get that, it sucks

[crisp onyx]

vendors must be the most boring thing ever implemented

[teal flame]

IDK why their focus was on "making vendors matter" instead of "making them obsolete"

[crisp onyx]

the only fun vendor is seer

[sweet blade]

Because then they can nerf the ground loot and not utterly brick people.

[crisp onyx]

smart

still doesnt solve problem of it being boring

[sweet blade]

Wasn't the problem they were trying to solve, and it's very clear that the way you should feel about mechanics (in GGG's mind) is the way that Jonathan feels about those mechanics.

[teal flame]

Didn't they also want ground loot to be meaningful?

Like, that seemed like a core thing they wanted to address

[crisp onyx]

i feel its boring, its jonathans job to solve it

[sweet blade]

Sure, but that meant that they had to nerf drop rates. Which exacerbated the RNG of finding upgrades. So, vendors to solve that problem.

[crisp onyx]

not mine to argument why i do feel so

[sweet blade]

I completely agree with you. But definitely after the interview today, it's pretty clear that Jonathan doesn't.

[crisp onyx]

i hate how much sense it has

[sweet blade]

I mean, they more or less said this explicitly in interviews about PoE2 over the years.

[crisp onyx]

i must have missed

[teal flame]

I mean, they're gonna have to solve it being boring somehow. People won't come back if .3 is as slow and sloggy as .2

[crisp onyx]

the only thing i remember they wanted to make vendors matter for some reason

[sweet blade]

Did Jonathan give you the impression that he agreed with that statement, or planned to change anything?

[teal flame]

Yeah I remember them saying that too, but now WHY they had to matter

[last cedar]

jesus is the interview sitll going

[teal flame]

IDK I haven't watched any of the interview, I just know how everyone's feeling

[crisp onyx]

you overestimate ppl

ggg will throw some buffs (still weaker than you were prio) and ppl will praise it

[sweet blade]

Is it? Wouldn't know.

[last cedar]

Dang yup it sitll going

[candid sage]

yeah its a chonky interview

[last cedar]

alot of streams are also tuning in

[sweet blade]

Hahahahahahahahahahaaha... oh that's too rich.

[candid sage]

and jonathan is on the struggle bus real hard

mark is saving it

[sweet blade]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall of their conversation after the interview is over.

[candid sage]

tbh, watching this interview, i am really feeling bad about poe2 future

yeah, id love to listen more but this alone is very telling

[crisp onyx]

seems like i've got jucy interview to watch tomorrow

[last cedar]

Jonathan looks annoyed af

[crisp onyx]

things rnt going according to plan

so its understandable

[sweet blade]

Waiting for the thumbnail on Mathil's reaction video.

[candid sage]

lol

[sweet blade]

Props to Zizaran for actually trying to get to answers.

[last cedar]

Imagine tri was doing this interview man 😂

[sweet blade]

Tri's energy is probably what GGG was expecting.

[crisp onyx]

i donth think so

[teal flame]

I dunno, not if they looked at any social post from friday to now

[crisp onyx]

they should have been aware

they are talking about recomb % 😂

[sweet blade]

Then why is Jonathan so upset? He even had the question Zizaran was going to ask.

[crisp onyx]

basically we should have hidden them

[last cedar]

ngl jonathan should of expected this

[crisp onyx]

your game is a trainwreck, why would you not be upset

[sweet blade]

He's not upset at the game. He seems to be upset at people who point this out. 'shooting the messenger' and all that.

From what I can tell, Jonathan's attitude is some combination of 'shooting the messenger', 'pearls before swine', and just gaslighting in varying degrees.

[light forge]

Pearls before swine?

[last cedar]

im watching it bro jonathan sounds like he has an attiude everytime he awnsers a queston 😭

Mark is just chilling being level headed

[candid sage]

i think its more the pushback and follow up questions that ziz is asking

and catching him in some very uncomfortable word traps

[last cedar]

sheesh

[sweet blade]

The expression means that you're acting like you're giving something of great value to someone who doesn't (or can't) appreciate it. It also has the subtext that the thing offered isn't actually valuable.

[light forge]

Yeah Johnathan has embraced the parry life lol

[sweet blade]

Well Thank goodness for that.

[crisp onyx]

first time hear about that subtext

[candid sage]

yeah

[sweet blade]

Not always present, but it can be.

[crisp onyx]

til

[sweet blade]

If the expression is being used by the person offering (which it can be), it's very derogatory towards the 'swine'. But it can also be used by the 'swine' to note that you're offering pearls when pearls are worthless. Much less common, of course.

Basically, I'm saying Jonathan is acting like he's thinking, 'Why don't you people appreciate what we're offering, because it's obviously the best around?'

[crisp onyx]

in my lang this expression is also present but i'm pretty sure it doesnt have that second meaning

[sweet blade]

Oh? Mind sharing it?

[crisp onyx]

метать бисер перед свиньями

its almost word to word

[sweet blade]

Ah. Yeah, I just found that out courtesy of Google Translate.

Is the last word there 'swine'? Because it looks almost like a cognate...

[crisp onyx]

yes it is

[sweet blade]

Awesome! I've always been fascinated by how many cognates are concealed by Cyrillic vs. Latin script.

[crisp onyx]

all langs have something in common

i dib myself in 4 and there are always little things

[solemn harness]

I decided to watch the PoE 2 interview, and this is the funniest thing I've seen all month

[sweet blade]

Yeah, I wish I had more popcorn, even for the secondhand information.

[solemn harness]

"You think you do, but you don't."

Jonathan showing J. Allen Brack how it's done

[crisp onyx]

blizzard energy

or 200 years of collective game designer experience

[solemn harness]

I literally had to pause the stream after 10 minutes

because I laughed so much my face started to hurt

[rare hare]

tbh its good to see a streamer who cares about the game giving them a proper grilling

[solemn harness]

Ziz just looks so defeated

[sweet blade]

Now, the customer isn't always right, but please don't be a dev whose players have to explain how your own game works and THEN try to tell them that they don't know what they want.

[crisp onyx]

customer always right in one thing

[sweet blade]

I will say that Zizaran, if he were to properly grill them, is probably the best person for this interview. And so he is.

[crisp onyx]

is your product good or bad

[last cedar]

I swear i saw a comment that said thank god Tri did not do this interview

[sweet blade]

Enh, not even then, given that superior products don't always win in the market, but I take your meaning. 🙂

[rare hare]

Indeed, he hasn't given them an easy ride
If they were expecting a sunshine and rainbows interview they got a rude awakening 😄

[last cedar]

W ziz

[sweet blade]

I might subscribe to his channel for this.

[crisp onyx]

this is not the case though

[sweet blade]

I agree; I was just objecting to the categorical statement. 🙂

This has been meta-schadenfreude for me. 😉

[crisp onyx]

most of those either product didnt reach the market or was not concurent in price

if we assume its superior in quality

[sweet blade]

shrug

[rare hare]

Listening to Jonathan arguing with Ziz after mentioning the gear vs monster strength issue was painful

[sweet blade]

Yep. The guy just keeps digging.

[rare hare]

The need to prove he is right and disregard whatever Ziz said is a PR nightmare

[tawny sand]

was the interview that bad?

[sweet blade]

Worse.

[rare hare]

some of it is cringe inducing

[solemn harness]

https://old.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile2/comments/1jurk3d/jonathans_reaction_was_priceless/ 😂

[red oasis]

I have a headache from it, it was that bad

[rare hare]

the timing of the interview to gatecrash Tri's interview was also sus

[red oasis]

I regret watching the whole thing lol

I just don’t understand how he has the position he has and behaves like that

[rare hare]

but some of the answers and even how low key passive aggressive hostile that Jonathan was was a massive own goal from GGG

[last cedar]

0.2.0 was bad GGG interview was bad.. whats next

[crisp onyx]

i assume ego

too many times ppl called poe genius

[red oasis]

Oh it def is, otherwise the game would be better

[crisp onyx]

april 17

[rare hare]

devils advocate would say his ego has been earned by the growth of poe1
how much of that was jonathan's work is another thing but hey ho

[crisp onyx]

i'm not even sure they can replicate it

and it was collective labor

[sweet blade]

I mean... was that clip saying that Jonathan honestly expected people to play within their weapon types? What about PoE1's vaunted build diversity?

[rare hare]

not with the design direction of poe2 no
its a very different game

[crisp onyx]

gems tied to weapons already bad

skill tree makes it worse

you pretty much pigeon holed into tailored builds

and if you want something spicy its ahrd to do

[sweet blade]

Can you imagine how much worse the situation would be with gearing if sockets were still in items?

[crisp onyx]

not sure new socket system is much better

[rare hare]

detaching skill gems and support gems from gear was universally well received, thats not the problem

[crisp onyx]

lets say you want to change skill

welcome back to 4l

[sweet blade]

Oh, I agree completely, it was great.

[red oasis]

Poe2 monsters play poe1 and Jonathan denies it being a problem, that’s the problem with the game

[crisp onyx]

or you could just make slots white and make linking easy

[sweet blade]

Wow. 'git gud' was the official GGG response.

[rare hare]

Man I just listened to Jonathan interrupting Ziz and then Ziz basically slapping him and telling him "let me finish"

[crisp onyx]

would solve every problem and make better system

[red oasis]

That too 😂

[crisp onyx]

there are plenty of those who are better at the game than he is

[sweet blade]

Naturally.

[rare hare]

Mark hauled Jonathan's ass out of the fire on multiple occasions

[sweet blade]

Agreed.

[rare hare]

My impression of Jonathan from this was that he knows better and he is determined to mansplain that better knowledge through excessive business jargon

[crisp onyx]

this behavior has no gender

[sweet blade]

Agreed.

[rare hare]

mansplain doesnt necessarily involve a gender, its usually attributed to men but its not specific to men 🙂
but yeah it was a rough interview and i dont think GGG have come out of it with much credit

[crisp onyx]

did you just mansplain?
but yeah took a minute

hope we will see some action sprouting from it

[broken harness]

rather just call it condescend then

or talk down

i am about to start watching the interview

[rare hare]

buckle up and grab some popcorn

[broken harness]

will do hehe

[gilded elm]

Build is coming together

Still keep dying though, dunno why my survivability sucks so bad this playthrough D:

[tawny sand]

gundam gquuuuux started today

it's a vibe so far, i dig it

[tall hearth]

Whats this? :o i wanna try

[gilded elm]

GhostLore

[tall hearth]

Thankies

[gilded elm]

1% left

[surreal spruce]

Lol. Yeah too late. I was well and truly asleep!

[vivid axle]

I'm only like 15 minutes in, so maybe my sentiment will change, but when Ziz is complaining about the wolves in the 2nd area of the game, yeah, that'd be my response too.

[sweet blade]

That's nice.

[vivid axle]

Mark is addressing the more problematic areas like Dreadnought

[sweet blade]

Mark is definitely the more reasonable of the two of them.

[vivid axle]

I understand Jonathan's incredulous response to Ziz's example, but there are some areas where it feels like EVERY mob is zoomy, Dreadnought and Utzaal being the ones that stick out to me.

[sweet blade]

If the wolves are allowed to stay as an example of what can be expected at any point in the game, no matter the density, their dream of Souls-like combat is obliterated.

(Unless, of course, they die in one hit.)

[vivid axle]

Souls games even have a few fast enemies here and there. The wolves are fast, but not particularly deadly. That's where I feel like Mark's idea of solving the issue of fast mobs by making them frail or weak comes into play

And just having them peppered in, not every single enemy.

[sweet blade]

I currently cannot believe that GGG will make them fragile enough to matter.

I mean, does GGG really need to have 'Strong-Tough-Fast: Choose 2' explained to them?

[vivid axle]

Like, right now it's annoying for my minion Witch that every single enemy in Dreadnought can fly or jump right past my army to attack me directly

But if NONE of them could do it, then it becomes trivially easy.

[sweet blade]

Not if they can take down your minions faster than you can get them back up. It'd be a war of attrition.

It's not like GGG HAD to make a lot of zones with choke points that would allow that to happen. But they did, and then chose the worst possible method to actually threaten the player, from the perspective of their desired gameplay.

[vivid axle]

Well, I've built my character in such a way that my frontline is incredibly hard to kill for white mobs, but they do basically zero damage.

[sweet blade]

Sure, and that should be good in certain circumstances and bad in others. Dunno why the Dreadnought should be the latter and not the former.

[vivid axle]

My Cultist Archer Spectre and myself are what actually brings the DPS.

[vivid axle]

Yeah, I agree, chokes should be good for minion phalanxes, but it's actually bad because the mobs can circumvent that and get to me.

[sweet blade]

Yep, because GGG never wants you to feel safe, I think.

[vivid axle]

But that's why I said one or two types being able to jump is fine, because I don't want to go completely unharassed, it would be a bit dull.

It's just annoying when that's every single enemy.

[sweet blade]

I don't care if you have some parts where you aren't harassed... it helps to get psychological breathers. Obviously, you need to be more or less harassed at different times, but GGG just has every knob up to 11, and seems content for it to be that way.

[vivid axle]

It's the more open areas where I feel less harassed, at least on this character. It let's my dots propagate and clear very easily.

[sweet blade]

Sounds like you have a very well-rounded build, as open areas can be very hit-or-miss for minion builds IME.

[vivid axle]

It does help that Lich has an extremely powerful couple of nodes for mitigation.

[sweet blade]

Rather, yes.

[vivid axle]

I basically has 25% flat DR, and I haven't found a level 3 support to get the gem that lets me shunt 10% of damage to my minions.

[teal flame]

You don't want max stress all the time, it causes burnout. You need difficulty to come in waves. Look at Souls games. Boss fights are hella intense, but a lot of normal combat encounters are super easy and straightforward.

[sweet blade]

Yep... As I stated upthread, I think a better model for PoE to follow, and is more attainable, is of thinking of every zone as a WoW Raid.

Trash mobs should not be threatening unless you REALLY mess up. BOsses, though, should be challenging and interesting.

They pretty much have the latter; the former is where they're struggling.

[vivid axle]

Judging by in game chat, plenty are struggling on bosses too.

Geonor, Balbala, Jamanra, Viper Napuatzi, and Doryani, mainly

[sweet blade]

Sure... bosses SHOULD be challenging.

Geonor was difficult, Balbala REALLY is in the sweet spot, Jamanra (assuming Act boss) is also difficult, Napuatzi was interesting, and I can't really comment on Doryani, as I found him a snoozefest.

[vivid axle]

Yeah, I've never had a problem with Doryani personally

[sweet blade]

Of course, since I haven't played (and probably won't play) 0.2, this is all from my 0.1 experience, but yeah.

[light cave]

damn

that ziz interview was whiplash after the last epoch stream.

[teal flame]

Napuatzi is probably my favorite boss

[sweet blade]

I haven't fought her enough to know for sure... Balbala is the boss I can readily think of where I feel while fighting her that I'm dueling.

It's a REALLY good fight.

[teal flame]

Yeah it's a good one too

[sweet blade]

Especially with a constricted arena... it reminds me of the first time I ever fought the Betrayal Mastermind in PoE1... took me like 15 minutes, but I did on the first try.

[fierce moth]

hah today is interesting. Double interviews available to check out

[blissful token]

At work, havent got the time to check out both interviews

[fierce moth]

what I upset by this patch is ok GGG is know these unfun reasons. But why they still keep their VISION in the new version?... 🤷‍♀️

[sweet blade]

Their Vision is apparently more important to them thatn Your Money. 😉

[red oasis]

I’d be okay with the vision actually…. If the campaign wasn’t so unfun to play through

That and giga fast swarmy monsters

[sweet blade]

IMO, the campaign is so unfun BECAUSE of their Vision (and their inability to understand what a derived requirement is).

[red oasis]

Interview just proved there’s too many clashing ideas on what constitutes fun

[sweet blade]

Again, derived requirements. They just don't get them.

[fierce moth]

🙃 I never think their campaign is fun to play to be honest... At first, most bosses combats are too hard for me so I've struggled them for a longggggggggg time. Second, no crafting materials are enough for me to build my gears instead of trading during the campaign. Third, I need golds to refund passive points, it's a big pain in campaign duration because you'll not have so many balance to spend. Forth, their maps are toooooooo big and I don't want to explore the whole map just for finding the exit (Or kill all rare emeies in endgame)

[red oasis]

Maybe if I picked up every single item and non existent rares and disenchant them all, I’ll unlock the secret fun campaign version

[fierce moth]

I just been happy for a bit because I can slain the boss I failed to slain after spent a long time to challenge

[sweet blade]

Congratulations!

[fierce moth]

But... hah I still can't kill that damn tornade bird

[red oasis]

Is that the one from trial of chaos?

[fierce moth]

yeah

[red oasis]

….i think it’s still bugged, it was legit the hardest boss in the game last patch because of a bug

Luckily the bosses in trial are random so evry time you do it you pray you don’t get birdnado lol

[sweet blade]

That bird is a menace.

[vivid axle]

What was the bug? Because I'd way rather face that boss than the Chimera on the warrior I was playing for 0.1

[fierce moth]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx2OtFRzDH2CAv76sYiGMK0VhuEw7b_e2I?si=bgJPC9hCoCBg0AlL
Clip the moment I think it's interesting to hear in Ziz's dev stream

[gilded elm]

This scuffed level 16 character I just made was more fun than my whole PoE 2 0.2 experience so far lol

[past breach]

Somebody help me with my PoE2 build plz

[last cedar]

I finnally took the leap and played and im having so fun rn

[past breach]

I need a spectre that will live with taking 20% of its life in fire damage each second 😛

[abstract karma]

difference between this and PoE 2 is that here your skills do dmg as "BASE" but in PoE 2 even with items and support gems does in act almost same dmg 😄 because base dmg on skill is BS

[vivid axle]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3750853

Balance changes incoming

[past breach]

As long as they don't nerf my skeletal snipers again, we're good. I like them where they are. I wanted to do spectres but they still suck so I guess I'm sticking with what I know works

[vivid axle]

I like my Cultist Archer Spectres

Scattershot does work on their big line of chaos orbs, so it becomes a massive screen clearing menace

[fierce moth]

Great, not changes I'm care at all

[vivid axle]

What are you looking for?

[fierce moth]

1. Mods edit on an item (I can add special affix I want on my gears, current runes don't give mods I want because I want mana regeneration)
2. The size of all maps 2x smaller not just add more checkpoints and reduce dead ends
3. Free at refunding passive points during the campaign

[vivid axle]

I doubt we'll get any of that, tbh.

[twilit mountain]

Better crafting would be nice. Unfortunately not something that will be added in a small patch. Map reduction would be nice yes. Free respec I am actually against. I am for free respec if your build is affected by major changes made in a patch, but I think they just need to reduce the gold cost some more and put in orbs of regret tbh.

[ivory swift]

👍 LP song

[fierce moth]

GGG JUST DON'T ALLOW US TO SCREW UP PASSIVE TREES. Hey, how are you learn from your mistakes if you don't make any mistakes

[twilit mountain]

For further clarification, LE-style crafting does not belong in PoE. PoE1 already nailed a lot of aspects of crafting, port some over.

[ivory swift]

It's a time thing, PoE1 had over a decade of dev time on it.

[twilit mountain]

Hence why I think the solution isn't to have them be free but instead to be cheaper and have a secondary option for respeccing. I personally think that mistakes should not be something you can just revert immediately.

[fierce moth]

poe 2 want to attract new players but this game don't allow new players to make mistakes. What the hell

[twilit mountain]

Yeah I get that, I just think that some of it could have still existed without the 13 years or whatever of dev time. Like, alts/scours/PoE1 essences are just better than what we have rn

[ivory swift]

you can respec passives, but not switch ascendancies, which I really hope the re-enable before launch.

[blissful token]

You can plan or use builder. Cheaper respec is already an option. There should be a cost if not gold sink

[fierce moth]

cheaper on refunding can't solve the issue because golds are limited, they still can be ran out

[twilit mountain]

I mean. Skissue at that point.

[ivory swift]

fair enough

[blissful token]

Endgame rares always show on minimap pogger

I respec alot and still got alot of gold left tho

Ok maybe not millions

[fierce moth]

it's fine that refund ascendency points more expensive than normal passive points, but I can't accept I need golds for refunding normal points because the difficulty for figuring out which passive points you should allocate in poe 2 is 4x harder than le

[twilit mountain]

It was a point of discussion during the interview, pretty sure Mark said he'd start some internal discussions about it

[desert jasper]

wouldn't be surprised if it went against the vision(tm)

[blissful token]

🤔

Targeted monster

[desert jasper]

Also, gm 🥱

[twilit mountain]

Morning, it is 1:20AM over here

[twilit mountain]

Basically, they're gonna target "swarmy" small guys that currently annihilate your life pool and make them weak and squishy instead of just blanket nerfing every mob. How will this turn out? Idk.

[blissful token]

Dreadnaught

Idk about endgame

[fierce moth]

do your cat is sleeping?

[blissful token]

Does this affect delirium and breaches in any way?

[desert jasper]

Probably not

[light forge]

PoE is getting its stuff together, whoot whoot.

well, maybe

but i have accquired +3 hope

[twilit mountain]

Oh gods no, they're all awake

[desert jasper]

"Armour break being applied to players by monsters no longer has the 20% extra physical damage modifier that was intended to only be a buff to players, and we have also reduced its duration to 4 seconds from 12. In addition, there was a bug where partial armour breaks were never removed on the player."
never removed

[teal flame]

I mean honestly this is what's needed. The little guys chain stunning you is the main problem

[twilit mountain]

Classic.

[desert jasper]

Yeah

[gilded elm]

Empowering in the campaign is actually cool. Almost forgot what it's like to actually have useful early game loot lol

[junior oyster]

I don't play le much but even in poe1 you could usually find or craft some good stuff early on

[gilded elm]

Even benchcrafting is far superior to runes in their current state, for sure.

[junior oyster]

Ye

Runes should be upgradeable to higher tiers

That or gear should have more sockets

Also unset rings should come with a socket too imo

[gilded elm]

More sockets would be enough, but it doesn't help that runes are atm very RNG, rather than say discoverable recipes. That said, veiled mods is sort of the same thing I guess.

[twilit mountain]

The low tier runes should be purchasable from a vendor, I think

[gilded elm]

Thing about veiled mods though, you only pay a currency to craft them. And the farming of that currency is far more deterministic than farming specific runes in PoE2

[twilit mountain]

Maybe even mid tier idk

[gilded elm]

Of course discovery is somewhat random

But at least once discovered, you can keep re-using it for the league, just need the currency. Where as in PoE2, you gotta go and find a whole new rune if you gotta socket it into a different piece of gear for example.

I say runes, but I also mean soulcores

I forgot, what does it cost to craft most veiled mods from the crafting bench?

[twilit mountain]

Most of em? A few chaos. Some of em are an ex or 2.

[gilded elm]

Last I remember, soulcores in particular can get pricey.

In PoE2

[twilit mountain]

A couple of em

But they're also like, pretty impactful

[vivid axle]

Only the Rarity one and the max mana one for stacking were too pricy, and those got nerfed to not even do that.

[twilit mountain]

The big ones are like if you could just chuck "20% increased mana reservation efficiency" from bench in PoE1

[gilded elm]

I'd prefer to have the determinism of something like veiled mods in a crafting bench where I only have to pay a currency to craft that mod once I discover it, rather than trying to find a particular soulcore every time I need it.

[gilded elm]

Just had like a billion lizards lol

Me relearned how LE crafting works. Me damage less poopy now

[vagrant topaz]

I love how Byteflux speaks about LE in #off-topic

😁

[gilded elm]

This is my home 😄

[desert jasper]

I wonder how good Rive will be in season 2 🤔

[gilded elm]

Going through a new LE playthrough in a long while, it's insane how many shards you get during the campaign and how heavily incentivized you actually are to craft at this point in the game. Completely opposite experience from PoE2 lol

[twilit mountain]

I am going to tear your home apart plank by plank

[gilded elm]

D:

[crisp onyx]

eye opening isnt it?

now imagine who only played poe 2

lol

in 10h more positive changes than in 4(?) months

[last cedar]

brooooo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhytnvJypdg

too bad GGG im having a blast on LE

[last cedar]

im late as hell but yuppp im dead

[last cedar]

Yeah im having a blast bro alot ppl in the chat thats coming from poe 2 seems ot be enjoying it as well

[gilded elm]

Yeah it's refreshing. Getting stuff like Weaver's Will and Nemesis empowered legenderies in the campaign feels good.

[last cedar]

seeing all these drops after killing these boss type enemies feels good

[crisp onyx]

steps in right direction

but no loot not addressed

[last cedar]

I cant believe this shi still didnt fix the loot

not going back on poe 2 for a bit needs more work

[gilded elm]

No point fomoing over PoE2 league at this point so I'll probably just wait until after the hype of LE dies down a bit before checking out 0.2 again

[last cedar]

Good idea tbh

[gilded elm]

In the meantime maybe a little bit of LE practice runs for the reset

When I go back and try 0.2 to again, I want it to feel completely different. I'd rather not try again and again after each patch thinking "oh this still sucks" each time.

[crisp onyx]

ill wait for 0.3

skipped few palworld updates anyway, so have to catch up with that

[desert jasper]

So many things to play
too many things to pick from
end up playing nothing because can't decide

[blissful token]

Not much from MHWilds, so you can let that slip

[desert jasper]

But the monsters aren't going to hunt theirselves
and the armor or weapons aren't going to craft theirselves either
need soo many zho shia kills

[blissful token]

How many weapons you playing 😂

[desert jasper]

... yes

Actually only a few
but I would like to have them in my collection
for when layered weapons come

[twilit mountain]

You better be playing Switch Axe or I'm gonna switch the status of your pulse 🫵

[desert jasper]

Go ahead

[blissful token]

Fair point, zoh shia's looking cool. I frickin like mizu sns and gs tho

The sns is geisha fan

[feral plover]

better title all the things WE asked for

but I guess he can have the win

[blissful token]

Btw..

Hammer stub toe

[desert jasper]

That hammer is great
Just like the fish greatsword

[crisp onyx]

no, its not everything i asked for

[crisp onyx]

watched interview

not even that bad tbh

[ebon meadow]

My goodies have arrived hope they guy can mount it for me because I don't have time lol

[pine summit]

live service wise im mostly waiting for updates to existing games and this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lTreb8z444&t=7776s

it'll look better when they upgrade to unreal engine 5.5 in beta 2

ofc, its mostly the crazy supernatural horror transition etc stuff im interested in not the city parts even if those are really well done (you can ride buses and trains etc)

https://youtu.be/eguKZyaDyQM?t=146 like this

also waiting on mecha break

[desert jasper]

Bought a bunch of different super spicy noodles
I might regret it

[sweet blade]

So I gather that GGG is actually making some changes?

[desert jasper]

Seems so
small start

[sweet blade]

Well, I honestly hope that it gets better. I know I dump on GGG a lot, but that's because I don't think they'll change, not because of what their goal is.

[timid iron]

I mean i dont think we have or will have such a big companies that do care and discuss their shit with players