📚┃off-topic

[broken harness]

it was leaked

[sweet blade]

The grimdark nature of Wraeclast is really wearing after a while.

[gilded elm]

One of the acts will at least have us going to or passing through Kingsmarch. Another is some Karui area, I forget. I think the Karui act is the next one, as that's where we should get the next ascendency trial (assumed to be Trial of the Ancestors)

[sweet blade]

Probably aggressively secular.

[broken harness]

i assume that oriath will be deeply deeply corrupt

and probably more than that

[sweet blade]

Do you mean like 'beast' corruption or 'Faustus' corruption? 😉

[broken harness]

i believe the empire will return in some way, the beast that oriana has already looks so much like malachai and the templar order is the child of the empire

[broken harness]

both of course

[gilded elm]

Faustus was already old, is he still around?

[broken harness]

surely he will find a way to get eternal youth, if one person will then its him

[sweet blade]

You know, it's quite pleasant to geek out over PoE2 lore as opposed to fighting over PoE2 balance. 🙂

[broken harness]

also

the kalguur king is aggressively secular, and seems like a complete dictator, and we know faustus likes him so...

[sweet blade]

Maybe he's the one in Kingsmarch funding the Archaeologist expeditions trying to find Zerphi's secret?

[gilded elm]

Yeah maybe we'll see him in Kingsmarch

[broken harness]

would make perfect sense, i could also see him playing both sides

but we know that kingsmarch will be destroyed

that was already leaked

[sweet blade]

Yeah, Faustus is on no one's side by his own.

[sweet blade]

Where from?

[broken harness]

my theory is that since all the ores we build kingsmarch from are surrounded by mobs so these ores attract these creatures

[broken harness]

art book

[sweet blade]

Interesting.

But we don't really use the ores to build so much as trade goods.

[broken harness]

i believe kingsmarch will be overran by these creatures surrounding the ore veins, and the corruption of the beast spreading and then attracting the scourge is perfectly logical

[sweet blade]

So Kingsmarch is going to be the 'Act 5 wakeup call' of PoE2?

[gilded elm]

PoE's lore definitely seems underappreciated. Not sure why tbh

[broken harness]

basically every building in kingsmarch is made with these ores

[broken harness]

imo its poorly implemented in poe1

people dislike standing in town talking to NPC or exploring corners of campaign areas for clues

[sweet blade]

Or, perhaps as even more of a parallel to D2, Baal's escape at the end of Act IV of D2.

[broken harness]

the atlas lore is implemented far better, people talk while fighting

[gilded elm]

True. D4 at least had cutscenes which immersed you into the moment and lets you take in and experience the lore more directly.

Even D2 had that

[broken harness]

also some parts of poe1 lore are just not in the game anymore since the NPC are removed

see old prophecy, synthesis and affliction NPC

[sweet blade]

To me, the upgrade system is abstract enough that, aside from Runesmithing, I'm not sold on the idea that the ores were physically used.

[broken harness]

i am 100% sure on it

the scourge was hinted at so much

[sweet blade]

Navali came back for ToTA, at least. I really liked Prophecy.

[broken harness]

tota will be in act 4

we know that

[sweet blade]

Yeah....

[broken harness]

act 4 will be the karui islands and kingsmarch

5 will be oriath

6 will be.... maybe sarn?

[sweet blade]

Kalguur would be a kick in the pants. 😉

[broken harness]

they will be relevant

i expect the king to start some sort of "special military operation"

but i think oriana will be the final boss for now in the acts

[sweet blade]

We have to remember that everything that has come out lore-wise since 2019 was likely influenced by PoE2, and vice versa.

[broken harness]

yup

[sweet blade]

Not the Beast itself?

And who do you think Oriana is?

[broken harness]

shes some sort of master manipulator from oriath whos playing with demonic stuff

kinda sounds like a return of the empire doesnt it

[pine basalt]

@vagrant topaz When you launch Last Epoch in your second monitor first so your Boss won't see you're playing POE 2 instead. 5 head

[broken harness]

we have already encountered imperials in act 1

imperials were as evil as it gets

and they interacted with the beast

[sweet blade]

Right now, I believe Oriana is Zana's daughter, likely by Sirus.

[broken harness]

malachai who looks a lot like the poe2 beast, was an imperial

[pine basalt]

i there a single thing in poe 1-2 that don't want to eat you / kill you ?

[broken harness]

possibly!

[broken harness]

hehe

i think azmeri and ezomytes and karui are generally fine

[sweet blade]

It's grimdark grimdark. Of course not.

[gilded elm]

PoE is just an Aus/NZ simulator

[broken harness]

there are some tribes like the kitava cultists ofc

oh and

[sweet blade]

Yeah, the Azmeri ... wait, Oshabi... Ezomytes... wait, Geonor...

[broken harness]

i believe doryani will probably betray us but not yet

[sweet blade]

Oh, yeah, maybe 3 years down the road for some league with a new endgame or something, it could happen.

[broken harness]

hes sleazy but hes not a moron

[sweet blade]

I don't think it's happening in the 1.0 release story, if that makes sense.

[broken harness]

yeah agree

or maybe just at the end as the introduction to the atlas

[vagrant topaz]

Trying some ancient mythical techs

[sweet blade]

I'm not sure I'd call Doryani even sleazy. He's the apex of Vaal culture.

[broken harness]

like the shaper i guess

he could be the next shaper

would be even more ironic if he does help us defeat zanas daughter

[gilded elm]

It look a lot to convince Doryani to join us. I expect it won't take that much to get him to betray us.

[abstract karma]

while all have eyes on PoE 2 me:

[broken harness]

this

hes very open minded, and that goes both ways

[sweet blade]

I thought it was too sudden, myself.

[broken harness]

well we were going to kill him so..

what choice was there

[sweet blade]

There's also the fact that we show him what the Vaal culture comes to... that can have very powerful effects on someone.

[gilded elm]

He was almost willing to die for his belief, it took us convincing him that his plan failed. I feel he's going to be opportunistic moving forward.

[broken harness]

but i gotta think about this idea of faustus becoming another zerphi

that is interesting

[sweet blade]

Thanks. Just an off-the-cuff idea.

[broken harness]

i do wonder if we will meet atziri again

[pine basalt]

Wasn't expecting POE Lore-Masters to be here, so what about Hall of Grandmasters lore ?

[broken harness]

not sure the hall has any actual lore tbh

[sweet blade]

@broken harness That would be for you. 😉

[sweet blade]

I can't imagine we're not.

[broken harness]

lmao

i believe there will be more time travel

[pine basalt]

didn't played poe for a long time, this poe 2 UI sure seems good, wanna try now

[sweet blade]

Wish we could get KCN in here. She is by far the universally-acknowledged PoE Lore Queen.

[broken harness]

they are already hinting at legion in act 3 with the napuatzi fight

[gilded elm]

I don't think I've done a full playthrough of TQ1 lol

But screenshot does make me wanna

[broken harness]

i watched all of her vids

[sweet blade]

As have I. I'm surprised she's not more assertive.

[abstract karma]

PoE 2 has Lore ? Its basically same plot just they talk about times where "beast" was imba.. While PoE 1 slayers took it as part of act lol

[broken harness]

well a lot is speculation

[broken harness]

poe2 is building on top of poe1 lore

[sweet blade]

Same lore continuity as PoE1, but yes, it has lore.

[broken harness]

poe1 has a ton of lore

so many characters we met or at least heard about before

[gilded elm]

Just, poorly presented is all.

[broken harness]

doryani recognizes the exile as being the person doing temporal incursions in poe1 and slaughtering vaal

[sweet blade]

Synthesis was SO important to PoE1 lore... shame it was received so poorly.

[sweet blade]

Incorrectly, but yes.

[broken harness]

could have been fixed too

[abstract karma]

If we take actions of PoE 2 as "fact" then it means that PoE 1 is different universe because in moment we went in PoE 2 to past before PoE 1 we created new timeline branch and new parraller universe

[sweet blade]

Oh yes. Now we just have the maps where this old guy just shouts at you.

[broken harness]

i know its a different topic but i am so curious about when they will put more of the poe1 classes in poe2 since chances are they will be nerfed into the ground

we will be able to compare them directly

[gilded elm]

Also, the Alva in PoE2 is presumably not of the same "timeline" as the Alva of PoE1, yes? Well, I guess timeline is maybe not the right word? The Alva in PoE1 seems like she's from the future, the one in PoE2 seems like she's from the past (before the future Alva)

[sweet blade]

Deadeye is the main comparator at this point, right?

[broken harness]

alva is a time traveler so forget all the rules

[broken harness]

the 2 ranger classes yeah and imo those are mostly fine

[sweet blade]

Alva is like Merlin. She lives backwards in time, apparently.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, basically seems like different Alvas.

[gilded elm]

Oh? Nuts lmao

[sweet blade]

KCN's video on Act 3 goes into this quite a ways.

Also... consider Scourge League.

[gilded elm]

Ah I haven't caught up on her lore videos. Last I saw was PoE1 related stuff

I really should catch up

[broken harness]

during scourge league the last to die (perhaps alva, btw scourge invasion from corruption in a world where alva is? sounds like poe2) brings up the different timeline where venarius won and took over the world

she said that venarius is worse than the scourge

what does that mean

[sweet blade]

Yes. Also note that during ExileCon 2023(?) it was outright confirmed that The Last to Die is Alva.

[abstract karma]

Depends how PoE lore see timelines:

a) either way you are making branches of one main timeline which makes new universe (aka you go to past which becomes your present)
b) timeline is here "circle" and Alva just go to different spots on it

[sweet blade]

It's an invocation of 'you become the monster you fight' IMO.

[broken harness]

of course yes

but also

we do not know that much about venarius

hes a piece of crap ofc

[sweet blade]

He's so megalomaniacal he frees the Elder, no?

[broken harness]

but that whole thing of him researching the atlas and getting his brain scrambled by the elder

[sweet blade]

I'd consider that worse than the Scourge.

[broken harness]

there is so much space there

its pure hubris

[sweet blade]

That certainly is the word for it. 😉

[broken harness]

you ever wonder if we will have more than 1 atlas?

since they often said in poe1 they would like to have more endgame systems

ended up integrating most into the atlas

[sweet blade]

Most likely, something closer to Delve.

[broken harness]

but the current poe2 atlas is just the real world there, and if we are going to go to oriath and kingsmarch, both of these cities have done research on the map device

[abstract karma]

Until wee slay beings above Maven i doubt that Atlas will change or shatter on something more-multi dimensional

[broken harness]

no need to go above maven tbh

just expand the 2 eldritch factions that eater and exarch are in

[sweet blade]

Or add a third. Which I think is implied.

[broken harness]

the current poe2 atlas has nothing eldritch currently and maybe the eldrich are not going to invade this world anyways

maybe its somewhere else

[abstract karma]

Its obvious that current endgame omni beings have above them somebody which measn this shouldh have been another big update of PoE 1 which might not come so fast as situation is right now

[broken harness]

the current poe2 atlas boss is a primordial right?

like aul

we have seen almost nothing of the primordial yet

[abstract karma]

I see all PoE 2 atlast right now as enemies of past

[broken harness]

we have not seen anything of the lightless yet... curious

[abstract karma]

we litterally are set in time where we trying cleanse the corrupted beast which is slayed in PoE 1

[fierce moth]

Nice, I had a good day :)

[broken harness]

it is implied that the lightless were even smarter than the vaal

[broken harness]

oh yeah i noticed earlier, large majority of recent views is very bad

the lightless are somewhere between the vaal and the primordials

[gilded elm]

Oh yeah I was tracking the Recent Reviews progress yesterday. Last I saw it was 4% away from becoming Mixed. So it did actually end up becoming Mixed haha

[abstract karma]

that's why they gave that HP nerft update to save review on steam and other social portals 😄

[sweet blade]

Clearly a review-bombing campaign. 😉

[broken harness]

also we currently only have 1 timeless jewel and its not from legion

does it imply we will be getting more timeless jewels for different groups of people and they will drop from their league mechanic?

[sweet blade]

Hopefully!

[broken harness]

current one is from olroth right?

[sweet blade]

Though it makes me concerned.

[broken harness]

and i believe light of meaning does not currently exist?

so king in the mists azmeri timeless jewel when?

[sweet blade]

Does that mean that you might be incentivized to do certain content if you play certain builds..?

[abstract karma]

Helldrivers showed that devs can be scared off by steam reviews.. From that point all haters and cries were s.. to steam review which makes value of game hardly recognizable from all that spam..

Weight and Value of reviews of steam thanks to that are almost 0%

[broken harness]

we know einhar will be added and he will be connected to ezomyte lore... what about the old ones, these ezomyte animal gods? could they have a timeless jewel?

[fierce moth]

this is a good idea

[sweet blade]

Wouldn't work.

[broken harness]

i guess einhar is considered kinda schizophrenic

but hes not wrong about these creatures

you fight them with him

[sweet blade]

Einhar is straight-up crazy. Heh.

[broken harness]

crazy and also correct 😄

[sweet blade]

He makes Geonor look well-adjusted.

[gilded elm]

Mark is a god-tier player, he's not really representative of the playerbase.

[sweet blade]

It does beg the question of what Einhar's status is, given Ezomyte society.

[broken harness]

what if the current azmeri themed patch is just that side of things, and we will be getting an ezomyte themed patch with einhar, the druid and a completely new league mechanic that is replacing the mediocre bestiary

[sweet blade]

Good idea. Do we have confirmation that the Druid is Ezomyte?

[broken harness]

no hard evidence but come on

what other group would it be thats animalistic

[sweet blade]

Oh, I don't doubt it, just asking if we had confirmation.

At LEAST he's culturally influenced by the Ezomytes, a la the Warrior.

[broken harness]

if we take another guess here

act 4 will be karui and kalguur
the marauder is a karui and likely will be an axe user

[sweet blade]

I wonder if one of the classes would be Kalguuran? Maybe the Duelist?

[broken harness]

are there any kalguur player characters? i think not?

[broken harness]

nah duelist will be the same guy as poe1 i think

i could be wrong tho

they renamed him to gladiator

[sweet blade]

Not exactly the same person. I'd be annoyed if both Str/Dex classes are Oriathan.

[gilded elm]

Shadow, maybe?

[broken harness]

but i assume act 4 will be more karui than kalguur

[sweet blade]

Just like I AM annoyed that both Warrior and Marauder seem to be Karui.

[broken harness]

shadow is a criminal from oriath so no

[sweet blade]

... you do realize that the PoE1 character classes in PoE2 represent different characters, and thus can have different backstories, right?

[broken harness]

wat no

the warrior is ezomyte

not karui

[sweet blade]

The warrior is a Karui raised in Ezomyte culture.

[broken harness]

oh okay

my bad then

did not know that part

maybe that is why he still has totem stuff

ayyyy

okay good mix

[sweet blade]

Yeah, so they sorta dodged it. Still annoyed.

[gilded elm]

I thought we knew for certain that none of the PoE2 exiles are the same characters as the PoE1 exiles.

[broken harness]

well then i am thinking another class could pick up kalguur related stuff

[sweet blade]

I mean, if the Warrior isn't Karui, why is his Third Ascendancy the Smith of Kitava? 😉

[broken harness]

the gemling already has picked up imperial aspects

[sweet blade]

Oriathan to Gemling is.. not that hard a stretch.

[gilded elm]

Which means Shadow could potentially be Kalguuran unless it's been explicitly stated he's not?

[broken harness]

hard to say okay

[broken harness]

well anyone can worship kitava...

but yeah you are right

[junior oyster]

The witch is the same in both games. In poe2 she has just gotten a little older as you can tell by looking at her feet.

[sweet blade]

I think Duelist is Kalguuran, and Shadow is Oriathan.

Just to spread out the cultures.

[gilded elm]

lol

[broken harness]

or maybe the shadow has just stolen something from the kalguur?

[sweet blade]

It will be VERY interesting to see what they do with the Templar.

[broken harness]

if you look at current classes

[sweet blade]

Yeah, that could work. Maybe he is a member of the Ring?

[gilded elm]

Oh yeah, they could mix the cultures too and have both be part of their identity.

[broken harness]

some of them sorta stole abilities from poe1 classes and i doubt they will be added as duplicates

so i believe the poe1 chars will be getting more fundamental changes

what those will be i dunno i hope they dont suck too

but we know warden for example probs wont be a thing, since we have the invoker now

[sweet blade]

I just want my Vaal Thaumaturge. 😄

[broken harness]

the max res thing from chieftain is also moved to someone else

[sweet blade]

Like Chieftain -> Smith of Kitava

[broken harness]

i doubt chieftain will just have it too

[sweet blade]

Occultist -> Lich

[broken harness]

ascendancy overlap is to be avoided

[sweet blade]

Oh, I don't think we are going to get more than one ported Ascendancy per class.

[broken harness]

i expect the duelist to get a complete rework

a lot of his theme already went to tactician

the champ that is

[sweet blade]

I don't want to know the kinds of combo shenanigans they're going to load onto Swords... ><

[broken harness]

glad and slayer are a bit generic in poe1

[gilded elm]

Part of adding new classes entirely was probably to flesh out existing PoE1 ascendencies into their own thing. Like Elementalist -> Sorceress

[broken harness]

already have 2 ported on ranger

[broken harness]

yep very true

[sweet blade]

I'm aware. I chalk that up to rushed design. 😉

[broken harness]

no i think the decision on them is fine

deadeye and pathfinder are unique ideas

it was raider that always struggled with identity then was replaced with warden and now invoker does all the warden things and some trickster things as well

[sweet blade]

My only point is that I think a rushed design cycle is why they chose 2. I have no issue with the Ascendancies.

[broken harness]

possible

but eh

i think archer and alchemist are good ideas

[sweet blade]

Just pointing out that Lich could have been called Occultist, and no one would have blinked. However, they gave it a more interesting name.

[broken harness]

occultist has a bit of an identity crisis too tbh

the entire cold side of occultist is just worse elementalist

chaos is okay but a bit generic

ES very generic especially after they changed how it works

[sweet blade]

That's because they nuked Cold DoT from orbit.

[broken harness]

even if they didnt

would you not want the exposure and shock from elementalist for cold dot?

[sweet blade]

Occultist was very competitive on Cold DoT before that.

[broken harness]

does cold really fit the theme of occultist?

[sweet blade]

IIRC, right before the Cold Dot nerfs, the two best Ascendancies for it were Occultist and Trickster.

Elementalist was a tier below them, though still fine.

[broken harness]

now the witch classes in poe2 are a life based one, a hybrid one and an ES one, all having different flavors of offense

no more overlap at all

rip necromancer tbh

will be missed

oh and

stormweaver has cannibalized hierophant

[sweet blade]

Vaal Thaumaturge when! 😉

My poor Templar.

[broken harness]

also i believe the druid will take totems away from the templar

but templar is getting flails

[sweet blade]

Flails++++

[river horizon]

i hope that's not the case, i love templar totem/brand builds so i really hope they keep to that theme

[broken harness]

guardian also needs a rework tbh

inquis is super generic currently

[sweet blade]

Inquisitor is super generic because the interesting parts of the Ascendancy were either gutted or never really usable in PoE1.

[broken harness]

brands might stay on templar but totems just do not fit the theme at all, they perfectly fit the druid, look we are on the LE server where the primalist uses totems 😄

trapped souls in a piece of wood tribal style? could not be further from a man of god

[sweet blade]

Considering who the Templar might be worshipping, it could be perfectly in line. 🙂 But I take your point.

[broken harness]

it might still be good in some cases ofc because its poe

but lore wise its nonsense

[river horizon]

true enough i just typically dislike druid style stuff i don't enjoy minions/transformation type skills saddly

[broken harness]

totems sorta are minions no?

just stationary temporary minions

[sweet blade]

We really need a 'lead from the front' Minion playstyle on the top of the tree, and I doubt Druid is going to do well there.

[sweet blade]

Since they don't scale with minion stats in PoE, they generally don't synch up with minion play.

[broken harness]

my brother in christ do you know about the beastmaster 👀 of course it fits druid

and if guardian will no longer be a support tank but a melee guy with flails

it has to be druid

[river horizon]

i classify minions and totems differently like minions you just walk around they follow and kill stuff, totems you place and they kills stuff but i see your point

[broken harness]

fair enough

[sweet blade]

I think you're operating on a lot of erroneous assumptions.

[broken harness]

why that?

druid has 3 themes
transformation into animals
totems (likely elemental)
minions that are not undead trash

[river horizon]

i enjoy clicking button and things happen which doesn't normally follow brand/totem playstyle but those are atlease tolerable for me whereas minions i did try once and almost fell asleep cause i barely did anything

[sweet blade]

Enh. Sounds terrible.

[river horizon]

granted this was like 4 major updates ago or w/e on LE

[sweet blade]

If they do give minions to Druid, then we'll probably have only 2 useful Ascendancies for Templar.

Because one will be made to be an aurabot.

[broken harness]

templar can still have divine minions

think domblow and absolution in poe1

and the relics and the massive statue dude

statue will probably be removed because of the balance issues

or maybe i am wrong

[sweet blade]

Sure. So you have Battlemage, Minions, and Aurabot. WIth Brands probably throwin in somewhere.

[broken harness]

flails where?

[river horizon]

i'm sitting at 5.4k hours on poe 1, 437h LE and 332hs on poe2 so i'm really hoping i'll reach 500+ hours played on Le when this season ccomes out

[broken harness]

minions and aurabot will probably overlap

[sweet blade]

Statue in PoE1 was clearly ported from Hellhound.

[broken harness]

rip my boy

😭

they slaughtered him

[sweet blade]

In all of them probably, but most in Battlemage.

[broken harness]

the guardian relics are already aurabot minions

and i believe they will keep them

they are a really cool idea

imagine the potential for support gems socketed in the relics

[sweet blade]

Nah, I think that we're going to get a dedicated Aurabot that will be useless outside groups. Because Mark.

[broken harness]

potentially

but there will be a melee class

poe1 templar really fails on the strength side

they will want to fix that

poe needs a paladin

[sweet blade]

You MIGHT see a DoT Ascendancy that focuses on Flails, given what a lot of games give Flails as a niche.

[broken harness]

no clue about flails tbh

but RF will probably exist

oh also

[sweet blade]

I hope to God that it's not like the Phrecia Paladin.

[crisp onyx]

lmao, with only 2 mods selected? thats just silly at this point

[broken harness]

poe1 has these divine spells like divine ire which are currently not super popular but its an underdeveloped theme

it fits the templar perfectly

[sweet blade]

RF will never exist in PoE2 as a usable form of main DPS, and otherwise it's not generally worth its drawback.

[broken harness]

nah it will be more like guardian or maybe jugg

[broken harness]

i expect it to be a good supportive damage skill, you are right that they will not let it be main DPS

[sweet blade]

Which I would put under Battlemage. It's likely to have two main paths: literal Battlemage stuff, and Channeled skills (Divine Ire, whatever the globe one is called, etc.)

[broken harness]

but it also isnt in poe1 currently, you use fire trap for single target

[sweet blade]

Having played RF extensively, you do not need Fire Trap except for hard bosses (not Map bosses).

There is NO WAY that GGG is going to let you do that in PoE2.

[broken harness]

lightning tendrils? winter orb?

those are cool skills, sadly kinda bad atm

tbh winter orb could also fit a new trickster...

[sweet blade]

No, the channeled Physical-Converted-to_Lightning one... I've played it, I feel terrible for not remembering it.

I've always wanted Voltaxic Rift to be good...

[broken harness]

lightning burst?

was it that?

storm burst?

trying to remember the name

[sweet blade]

Storm Burst, that's it.

[broken harness]

but for speculation i would generally try to stick with themes and class identity because that is the main goal with their ascendancy rework

the 3 themes i can see for templar
holy magic (elemental or phys)
blessings (supportive and minions)
melee

[sweet blade]

Sure. Just saying that 'mixing spells and attacks' has been part of the core Templar identity forever; it's just not really ever worked well.

[broken harness]

yeah true

but they also moved that hybrid idea to invoker

[pine basalt]

((WraithLord wants to know your location))

[broken harness]

hehe

LE actually is a good example of that tho

[sweet blade]

They MIGHT just go 'physical damage spells' (holy spells) as an analogue to MOnk, who does elemental attacks.

[broken harness]

as necro you treat your minions like expendable trash

as beastmaster you revive your minions

very different theme

beastmaster goes into battle

necro stays back

one is a mage and one is a warrior

[sweet blade]

Marauder might also get a Minion build, though I think Warbringer ate that concept from ExileCon 2019.

[broken harness]

do we maybe get a ranged summoner later? think mirage archers...

[sweet blade]

Shadow might get it. (Illusions?)

[broken harness]

i doubt it tbh

[sweet blade]

Just saying that the one putative Ascendancy for Marauder they showed off way back then was an Ancestral Summoner.

[broken harness]

shadows? blade dancer? 👀 specifically for melee shadow?

[sweet blade]

Just sayin. 😉

[broken harness]

oh look at phrecia 😄

hehe

[sweet blade]

The only Marauder in the game for me is Chieftain.

[broken harness]

i am 100% sure he will be in poe2

but he will be different

3 themes i can see for marauder
rage
tank
fire and karui gods

[sweet blade]

I can honestly say that I've been playing since Breach League, and I've never once Ascended to Berserker.

[broken harness]

i started in delve

[sweet blade]

Smith Of Kitava shows he's already in PoE2.

[broken harness]

i played every class

well that is just kitava

[sweet blade]

Legacy League was soooooo fun.

[broken harness]

arguably the most unpopular karui god

what about fire slams?

[sweet blade]

Smith of Kitava is the Chieftain. Straight up. Got its most important nodes ported over nearly exactly.

[broken harness]

think kaom

[sweet blade]

Couldn't really care.

[river horizon]

legacy of phericia was fun i wish they'd keep some of the asc but thats not going to happen

[broken harness]

yeah the marauder will have to get something else in its place, maybe damage taken as fire will return hehe

[broken harness]

honestly maybe they will

some of the classes are just really really cool

[sweet blade]

Given how much is on Smith? Unlikely in the extreme.

[broken harness]

what do you expect to happen?

i believe we will still have some sort of chieftain and berserker

juggernaut i dont know about it might be too similar to the theme of titan

[sweet blade]

What could be interesting is a rotation of Ascendancies in PoE1. Every League they choose 3 of the 6 Ascendancies, and those are the ones available in the League.

[broken harness]

oh god no

[river horizon]

i tried alot of the new asc's before deciding i was done

[broken harness]

i dont wanna lose the ascendancy coinflip

pls

let me play every class

[sweet blade]

Berserker for me is the only thing left in the Marauder gestalt.

Chieftain and Juggernaut, as you say, were taken by the Warrior.

[broken harness]

i am a bit sad none of my friends got into phrecia that made me far less interested in playing it... opportunities missed, or maybe i will actually do a private league in the future

[broken harness]

rage is a big theme for a marauder and that is likely the most glass cannon choice

[sweet blade]

If they wanted to do a VERY bold move, they could make the Marauder a female, and focus on Hyrri stuff with thrown weapons, maybe? I dunno.

[crisp onyx]

bad idea

[river horizon]

my brother and i played through LOP

[crisp onyx]

lets say i like to play jug

[sweet blade]

I said interesting, not that it was good. 😉

[crisp onyx]

so if jug is not in that league i just skip or forced to play something else?

[broken harness]

well look, the fire aspect of chieftain was taken, but the karui religion was not taken at all and most karui do not like kitava, kitava is the abandoned outsider, just like the warrior perhaps

[broken harness]

nah no way that would just be huntress using strength

[sweet blade]

Not much different, IMO, from trying to play Juggernaut in a league where GGG decided that they didn't want people playing Juggernaut and nerfed it into the ground. But I take your point.

[sweet blade]

Maybe they should have made the Huntress Karui and the Marauder Azmeri. I don't know. 😉

[crisp onyx]

in that case you can at least try to make mapper out of it or something

[broken harness]

chieftain will exist, but as a completely new class, see how many things tota has that a marauder could wield...

[broken harness]

hell no lol

[sweet blade]

Having one Ascendancy focus on the Karui gods (like the Polymath from Phrecia) could be interesting.

[broken harness]

huntress azmeri makes perfect sense

being hunters is literally the whole idea of the azmeri

[broken harness]

yeah is that not the idea of the chieftain already? since in tota every tribe has a chieftain to represent a god and the player character is fighting lots of different wars at once

so we can pick multiple gods to combine

just not kitava

because kitava is the evil one

[sweet blade]

It was a naming theme, but I never found it to be a cohesive theme in terms of abilities or lore.

[sweet blade]

Most evil one. Most of the Karui gods seem very sinister.

[broken harness]

sadly a lot of the new chieftain nodes they added kinda sucked, do you remember the totem thing? it was so damn bad, and the fire jewel thing just did not function on the passive tree at all

you had to go up to the witch area to benefit from a jewel and it was just 1 jewel

so bad

[sweet blade]

Sure. My point was that if you had renamed the nodes on Chieftain to anything other than the names of their Gods, there would be no connection to the gods there.

[broken harness]

the corpse explosions are nice and the res is nice and the strike + slam synergies are decent

[broken harness]

true

[crisp onyx]

they just hate kitava cuz he didnt share and ate a lot

[broken harness]

oh and the fire res reduction on mobs ofc

[sweet blade]

Chieftain currently is the best RF chassis in the game, and that's all it needs to have to be viable, IMO.

[broken harness]

kitava was just always slytherin smh my head

[sweet blade]

I mean... Kitava wants to eat EVERYTHING, and I don't like that as I'm a thing, but... the others are no picnic either.

[broken harness]

to be fair RF has several options atm, most common ones being chief and inquis but you can also go jugg, elementalist or trickster if you are crazy enough

[crisp onyx]

wasnt original myth that kitava just ate gods food and when they got back they got mad?

[gilded elm]

Kitava has an endless hunger

[broken harness]

||soul eater?||

[sweet blade]

He ate all the food and also drank an entire lake, and still wanted to eat.

[broken harness]

but i do not believe that the marauder as the karui traditionalist would ever worship kitava

[sweet blade]

IMO, starter leveling experience is highly prioritized, and none of the other options come close to Chieftain in that regard.

[broken harness]

yeah thats fair

[crisp onyx]

but he got punished cuz he ate their food

[broken harness]

tbh kaom/ngamahu is also a bit sussy

[sweet blade]

AND drank a lake. He was punished because the other gods were afraid that he'd eat all their worshippers.

[broken harness]

maybe that could be a new fire themed marauder ascendancy

[sweet blade]

Which, on Wraeclast at least, means that they would die or fade.

I don't expect there to be a fire Ascendancy for Marauder beyond a node or two.

[broken harness]

i feel like jugg isnt gonna make it, too generic

and endurance charges are just not the same at all anymore

[sweet blade]

Jugg is Titan, basically.

[pine basalt]

it's a cycle rotation : eat => drink => eat, like 🍺 and 🚬

[broken harness]

yes

[sweet blade]

A Shield Ascendancy would work well for Marauder.

[broken harness]

eh i dunno

warbringer already is shield themed

and we will probably get a block duelist too

[sweet blade]

... they really cannibalized (NPI) the Marauder to make the Warrior, didn't they?

[broken harness]

if anyones willing to just use a 2 hander with heavy armor its a marauder

[crisp onyx]

parry*

[broken harness]

nope parry is only bucklers

[crisp onyx]

yet

[broken harness]

the armor/evasion shields block normally

[crisp onyx]

but i think it will be parry

[sweet blade]

And that's another issue... Plate Armor on a Karui feels wrong. To that end, Damage Taken As does make sense.

[broken harness]

i mean its possible

[crisp onyx]

i mean you parry with weapon

not block

so dualwield should be parry

[broken harness]

why does it feel wrong? they literally use flames from the gods to forge their gear

[sweet blade]

I would think that Duelist should get Parry Shields, but I doubt the mechanic is going to do well enough to export it elsewhere.

[broken harness]

ohhhh yeah possible

i did not think of that

[broken harness]

nothing stopping duelists from using a huntress buckler

[sweet blade]

I don't picture Maori in heavy armor, that's all.

[broken harness]

kaom isnt maori

hehe

karui are a bit more

[crisp onyx]

if it doesnt do well just force it ggg way

[sweet blade]

Just saying... even in TotA, where we get to see all these tribes, you don't see a lot of armor that looks like endgame pure-Str armor.

[broken harness]

kaom seems like a medieval king from europe whos gone mad and wants to take over the continent

we could get some new bases i suppose

[sweet blade]

Maybe they... yeah, that.

[broken harness]

but also exiles are pragmatic with this stuff

culturally the marauder is forbidden from using a bow and yet exiles do it

there are some half decent berserker bow builds

its just not that strict

[crisp onyx]

i dont think its applicable

normally mages wotn use melee too

but you can build that

[broken harness]

yep

you can break the rules

and thats awesome

[sweet blade]

It's just an aesthetic thing for me.

[crisp onyx]

its just game logic not rly applicable to lore

[sweet blade]

Maybe they'll focus on 2-H, DW (Berserker here), and Sword-n-Board? Dunno.

[broken harness]

but it is, the karui had to find a way to use bows against the empire and ended up giving the bows to women

cultures are not set in stone

and karui are open to change, unlike the templar

[sweet blade]

... maybe the Karui started pick... no, you can't put Kalguuran Runes on Marauder, because Warrior ALSO has that, from Ezomyr.

[broken harness]

i just dont know how important shields will be here when the class is already about heavy armor and warbringer has the shield theme

you can still use a shield ofc

but i do not see a marauder ascendancy being about blocking

[sweet blade]

It all depends on how much GGG is NZ vs. European roots, to me.

[broken harness]

marauders do not avoid hits, they mitigate them

look at current jugg

no block at all

just mitigate and regen

berserker is mostly about drain tanking

[sweet blade]

So yeah, a regen-based Ascendancy isn't really taken yet, right?

[broken harness]

i believe a marauder wants to use both hands offensively, whether that is dual wield or 2handed

[crisp onyx]

regen overall is prem in poe2

dont expect good regen ascendancy

[broken harness]

they dont want regen to be that powerful, and if it is to be powerful then likely on templar

[crisp onyx]

cuz bosses need to be war of attrition

[broken harness]

yep

[sweet blade]

Well, then, I don't see a lot of hope for Marauder.

[broken harness]

i think berserker and rage will stick around, the religious theme will stick around, defense will change but i dont see it turning into block, rather just armor or other forms of mitigation, maybe also resistance to crowd control

i see a ton of hope tbh

jugg is super generic currently

except the accuracy stacking

thats cool

[sweet blade]

Enh, you can argue that Tactician has CC resistance.

[crisp onyx]

but armor suck ass

[broken harness]

tacticion is ranged champ imo

[broken harness]

people will scream at GGG until that changes

[crisp onyx]

just pick mace

[broken harness]

hehe

[sweet blade]

Regardless, if you say that Marauder can't be Shield-based because of another Ascendancy, you can't discount my point.

[crisp onyx]

like they changed 'kill all rares" req

i will believe when i see it

[broken harness]

i am not saying it cant at all i just think theres better choices here

[crisp onyx]

no more potential changes

[broken harness]

dont remind me 😭

[sweet blade]

I barely see 3 choices with Shields thrown in, so I don't agree.

[crisp onyx]

i will

[broken harness]

i have uninstalled the game after reading patch notes

never done anything like this before

[crisp onyx]

xd

[broken harness]

people called me crazy then a day later agreed with me

[crisp onyx]

dw its a healing process

you will be fine

after you break your addiction

[sweet blade]

I remember three years ago, last Thursday. 😉

[broken harness]

huntress
warbringer
some kind of duelist
maybe templar as well

how much heavy armor does it take before you stop caring about a shield?

[gilded elm]

All it takes for GGG to change tune is one or two leagues of scathing criticism. At that point they'll have to re-evaluate their vision and really take in the fact that people don't like what they're getting.

[sweet blade]

In current PoE2? Infinite.

[broken harness]

yes you are right game balance wise of course 😄

but i mean theme wise

in a good poe2

how much does one commit to defense

surely not all of it

[crisp onyx]

ppl asked for harvest

[broken harness]

surely the jugg will not replace his damage nodes with block on top of armor?

[sweet blade]

I don't think we're getting a Juggernaut Ascendancy for Marauder, so that point is moot.

[broken harness]

i believe a big strong tanky guy is the most likely one to be using a 2 handed weapon

[broken harness]

i am just calling it jugg hypothetically

[gilded elm]

PoE2 is one of the concurrently most played games in the world right now. As long as that remains true, GGG has no compelling reason to re-evaluate their visionary direction. That will change over time as leagues continue to disappoint and people lose faith. This league was only the beginning of that.

[sweet blade]

I think the Marauder is going to be rebuilt from the ground up, with the only vestige from PoE1 being Berserker/Rage.

[crisp onyx]

cant argue with this. its just they are very not responsive to feedback

it takes whole 2 leagues of screams for them to react

[broken harness]

we are getting 2 handed axes and swords still, and the 1 handed versions ofc, i expect duelist and maybe the more aggressive side of marauder to be dual wielding, while the more defensive marauder i guess uses 2handed, defensive side of duelist likely with a shield but also some evasion

[broken harness]

does a raging guy use a shield? i think not 😄

especially if he wants to drain tank

[sweet blade]

Historically, yes, they did.

[broken harness]

historically magic wasnt real 👀

[abstract karma]

welp then we are doomed..

Because all other aprg while might be good for somebody for majority it has too many cons to be above their "poe"

[sweet blade]

You know, the naked woad men howling in the wilderness? Their main form of defense was a shield.

[broken harness]

i do expect shield crush to return, likely for a tank type class

[broken harness]

yes druid will be using shields i agree 😄

[gilded elm]

It's worth noting they are investing all of this energy into a mediocre product at the expense of their breadwinner PoE1. This hurts them financially, a lot.

[sweet blade]

sigh

[broken harness]

oh right another thing

axes are heavier than swords

axes are usable for slams

i assume axe goes to marauder and sword goes to duelist

and maybe shadow gets swords too

or claws rather

or daggers

[sweet blade]

Shadow gets Daggers and Traps. Probably also Claws.

[broken harness]

wait no claws for druid probs

[crisp onyx]

i dont think it hurt them yet, thats why they doing it

[broken harness]

claws are melee only thematically
daggers are both for stabbing and for throwing, see BD in last epoch

[sweet blade]

...

What does that have to do with anything?

[broken harness]

theme

duh

😄

[sweet blade]

Don't we have Claw nodes on the PoE2 passive tree, in the Dex/Int area?

[broken harness]

yes we do but i expect it to change

[sweet blade]

...

[gilded elm]

GGG is definitely taking some financial risks here. There's tons of opportunity cost being dumped into PoE2 as a project only for it to currently be mediocore and not so well received. They feel the sting of this for sure, but one thing good about GGG as a company is they have shown time and again they are willing to take big risks.

[broken harness]

wait no

no

we do not have claws in poe2 i think

monk uses a staff

[sweet blade]

Regardless, Shadow isn't getting swords because they're getting Daggers and Traps, at the very least.

[broken harness]

we agree that sword goes to duelist right? it is known that mace goes to warrior
axe must be for marauder then

[sweet blade]

Who gets Rapiers is anyone's guess. Maybe Duelists get both types of swords?

[broken harness]

yeah that is correct

[sweet blade]

Yeah, it's very clear that Marauder gets Axes.

[broken harness]

rapiers are just swords so likely duelist

[crisp onyx]

poe2 is paid though, i think they got good money out of it already, thats why sting is not that bad for them yet to feel it

[broken harness]

dual wield axe for berserker without a doubt

[sweet blade]

So maybe a third Ascendancy is DoT / Bleed focused?

[broken harness]

i bet

bleed is a thing on poe1 gladi

[sweet blade]

Then move it.

The Gladiator Ascendancy, in theory, should be all about CC.

[broken harness]

a bit perhaps yeah

i expect the current version of champ to be gone completely

[sweet blade]

Obv.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, it's a one time buy-in though. It's not like Diablo or something where they're selling expansions to keep up revenue to continue their live service. They are feeling the absence of PoE1 revenue, I have no doubt of this.

[broken harness]

champ was eaten by tactician

[sweet blade]

A crit Ascendancy would still work, especially Rapier-coded. Like a Rake or Swashbuckler.

[broken harness]

imagine the money they would make if next poe1 league you could just pick phrecia gamemode

[crisp onyx]

prob, thats why this whole 'down of the hunt' EA patch is treated like full ass new league.

[broken harness]

absolutely yes

dex crit are always related

[crisp onyx]

and i think they implemented new supporters packs too for it

[sweet blade]

Except when people want to argue that you shouldn't expect anything from it because it's EA. 😉

[broken harness]

maybe there will be an ascendancy called duelist that rewards using only 1 sword and empty offhand? and scales crit to the moon

[crisp onyx]

hate that argument

[sweet blade]

More that the Implicits for Rapiers are Crit. 😉

[gilded elm]

What Dawn of the Hunt did is it made PoE2 players more cautiously skeptical about future content.

This will have an impact.

[broken harness]

that too yeah 😄

[crisp onyx]

i sure hope so

players overall will benefit of being more skeptical in general

[sweet blade]

I wonder if that Ascendancy (Swashbuckler) would also get Retaliate, given the Bucklers in 0.2.

[broken harness]

but i also think they just want more crit melee because atm in poe1 almost no one goes crit melee, you just go precise technique

[gilded elm]

I can only speak anecdotally (n=1), but that's the case for me. I am now more cautious about what GGG is promising and what I expect from a future content update.

[sweet blade]

That was me 18-24 months ago.

[broken harness]

retaliate will be for duelist without a doubt

[pine basalt]

if you knew...

[sweet blade]

Well, they could do that, or they could just employ the good ole GGG triple-tap.

[gilded elm]

Yeah, I think this league will really push a lot more people to that point.

[broken harness]

but i dunno about shield crush or throw, that could be marauder territory too...

[crisp onyx]

i also bought poe2 day 1 cuz ggg always (almost) delivered, well at least delivered in the end
nowadays i wouldnt do so

[broken harness]

already has

[broken harness]

same

[sweet blade]

Wait, I thought Shield wasn't for Marauder? 😉

[crisp onyx]

i gave that treatment only to ggg and klei

[gilded elm]

I expect the LE season is going to be absolutely nuts in terms of anticipation now.

People are hungry.

[broken harness]

it can be i just assume it isnt, and if anyone does armor stacking i would assume its a strength class

[gilded elm]

PoE2 left them starving.

[crisp onyx]

hope they deliver

[broken harness]

but to be fair you dont have to fully armor stack, just on the shield is enough to scale shield crush damage

[sweet blade]

Huh. I wonder if Templar or Shadow will get a Focus-themed Ascendancy.

[broken harness]

and i think shield crush also scales with evasion right?

[gilded elm]

That's the big thing. Can they meet the bar that PoE2 has set, I think EHG can, personally.

[broken harness]

maybe sorceress

[gilded elm]

The bar isn't that high right now.

[sweet blade]

That 0.2.0 set? That's like asking if EHG can walk.

[crisp onyx]

just wanted to say

[gilded elm]

Exactly

[broken harness]

the focus isnt even a shield anymore tbh

[crisp onyx]

if only LE had poe2 graphics its so easy win

[broken harness]

the focus is almost purely offensive

[sweet blade]

Which makes it a lot more interesting.

Right.

[gilded elm]

PoE2 inadvertently screwed themselves by lowering the bar with 0.2.

[broken harness]

for sure yeah can move that power budget away from block to other stuff

[gilded elm]

LE will sweep in and capitalize on that mistake.

[sweet blade]

Didn't say the focus-focus was defensive in nature. 😉

[broken harness]

but imo focus is currently kinda bleh

needs more interesting traits

[sweet blade]

All the more reason to try to get it good at least for something a bit more specific.

[broken harness]

YES

[crisp onyx]

but how well known is LE though?

[broken harness]

PLEASE

[crisp onyx]

i mean with general audience

[sweet blade]

More than you might think.

[gilded elm]

More than it was before Dawn of the Hunt, bet your ass on that 😉

[broken harness]

certainly growing right now 😄

[sweet blade]

Especially after the Release Date drama was blasted all over the ARPG streamers.

[broken harness]

i always found it a bit weird with the ES shields in poe1

using a shield but then just aiming for offensive spell mods on it

just feels odd

[sweet blade]

Heh.

[broken harness]

obviously you can build ES too

[crisp onyx]

its more of an accessory than functional shield, think of it more as and offhand with which you can ocasionally block something

[broken harness]

but always felt like a weird competition between offensive ES shield and dual wielding wands

[sweet blade]

Uh oh, Tri just put out a video about 0.2... how much copium do you think it's going to be, on a scale of 99-100?

[broken harness]

yeah i suppose if you want a shield as a caster you can just armor + ES base

[crisp onyx]

199

[broken harness]

while a focus can be more unique

actually now i wonder

[crisp onyx]

i expect things like "sure, there are negative things in patch, but so much good things too"

[broken harness]

how do the off hand catalysts in LE work? i barely ever used them tbh

[crisp onyx]

or something of that nature

[gilded elm]

"Here's why this is actually a really good thing"

[sweet blade]

They can be offensive or defensive.

[broken harness]

sweeping like its his job 😄

[broken harness]

seems mostly offensive tho right? lots of crit and INT from them

[sweet blade]

But also ward retention and WPS.

[broken harness]

and generally stats you want but cannot fit on your wand

[crisp onyx]

we need bingo

and then i will give it a watch

[broken harness]

and i guess dual wielding wands while fine gameplay wise from other perspectives is kinda bad

if you craft different wands then the mod pool is twice as large so painful

also a lot of the speed associated with dual wielding weapons just does not work on wands

[sweet blade]

I just can't bring myself to watch him, as nice as he is.

[broken harness]

unless you do attack wander and i assume in poe2 that will be trickster related

i bet trickster will be spellslinger and wand attacks

[sweet blade]

Although, I can't remember exactly what, but I remember one decision GGG made in the last year had even him saying negative things... was it the OG announcement that 3.26 wasn't coming until at least June?

[broken harness]

thats how you know hes an honest actor

he can criticize its just not often

[sweet blade]

Doubtful. How in the world do you fit Traps and Daggers AND Wand attacks in a single tree?

[crisp onyx]

i dont think i even need to watch it based on the title

[pine basalt]

((never talk about ggg shadow-nerfs, micro managing and denying micro changes -- never talk about d elves seeds ;o )

[gilded elm]

GGG did initially say that PoE2 wasn't taking away from PoE1's development, until this was obviously proven to be a lie and GGG themselves had to admit they were siphoning PoE1 resources to work on PoE2 lmao.

[sweet blade]

Maybe I'm just cynical, but it shows me nothing of the kind.

[broken harness]

almost all INT slots are occupied and these 2 themes are attack/magic hybrids

[sweet blade]

I meant like Elemental or Primal or what-have-you. The gem categories in PoE2. What do you give to the Shadow that encompasses all of those themes?

[broken harness]

whats the themes on shadow?
daggers, whether melee or ranged (poison and bleed too)
traps/mines (i heard mines are gone?)
attack/spell hybrid but ranged, not melee like monk or inquis

[pine basalt]

litteraly on the same infra / workers / api ?

[gilded elm]

Nah, as in developer resources.

[crisp onyx]

thats a healthy trait

[gilded elm]

They had PoE1 people working on PoE2, and still do.

[sweet blade]

Not at the levels I have, I guarantee you that. 🙂

[pine basalt]

At least learn "how" or "why" someone enjoying it ^^

[crisp onyx]

you cant beat me still

[broken harness]

i am cynical too 😄 but i can see the difference between someone being dishonest and someone just being naive and i think hes naive

[sweet blade]

Likely not, but that is not to the purpose.

[sweet blade]

I think he's both. Would you perhaps agree on his being unconsciously dishonest?

[gilded elm]

GGG initially claimed there are separate teams that handle PoE1 and PoE2 development. While this is true, they also had to eventually admit that almost everyone in the PoE1 team is now working on PoE2 when before they said that PoE2's development wasn't taking away from PoE1 at all, until eventually this festered with everyone asking why 3.26 is taking so long. Just look at how late 3.26 is right now, compared to other PoE1 leagues.

[broken harness]

oh yeah cope is subconscious dishonesty

true

[crisp onyx]

"ruthless is just a mod made by developers for fun"

[gilded elm]

If by developer you mean Chris Wilson 😛

[sweet blade]

Fair enough. Basically, he's drunk the Kool-Aid.

[pine basalt]

i think "cynical" is a healthy mechanism to talk about real things?

[broken harness]

first they tell you its not happening
then they tell you that it might be happening a little bit
and so on..

[sweet blade]

No, it WAS made by developers... for Chris Wilson's fun.

[crisp onyx]

i think few days ago last one who updated it packed his bags

[gilded elm]

lmao

[broken harness]

i agree but i am a bit biased 😄

[pine basalt]

Delves seeds ! shadow nerf (loot drop)!

[sweet blade]

Not past a certain point.

[broken harness]

i am pretty sure delve will return

actually

[pine basalt]

Sure if you are cynical ALL THE TIME and can be a bother

[sweet blade]

The shadow loot nerf was what broke my trust in GGG.

[crisp onyx]

you cant live without being cynical, otherwise you will be taken advantage off

at least where i come from

[broken harness]

they turned essences into fossils effectively in poe2, just following the mod tags, maybe fossils will become essences, do you remember the OG fossils that had their own mod pool?

[pine basalt]

just admit it ggg ! just say "yes we reduced it", it's ok, stop saying "naaa it never happend"

[sweet blade]

That, and then the utter gaslighting about it from both GGG and the community.

[crisp onyx]

3.15? or was it later

[broken harness]

real

[sweet blade]

Later, I think 3.18. 3.15 is I think WHY they didn't mention it.

[gilded elm]

I have faith in Jonathan and Mark as visionaries who are creating something they believe in. I just hope they also learn to recognize failed visions and realize when it's time to re-evaluate.

[broken harness]

imo fossils in poe1 are actually not terrible they are just too hard to get compared to everything they compete with

[broken harness]

yeah gaslighting is one of the worst things they could do

[sweet blade]

I can agree that they can't see the real world because of their vision, at least. 😉

[broken harness]

yeah fair

[gilded elm]

I don't doubt Jonathan and Mark's passion for their work, at all.

[crisp onyx]

do you remember that shitpost of a graph of player power? when they deleted harvest

[broken harness]

but for the other topic who do you think would do wand attacks and spellslinger? or maybe wand attacks are gone since crossbows took over the gun theme

in poe1 the wand skills play like guns

[sweet blade]

It was worse for me, because of my data analytics background. I know ALL the arguments about limited data sets and the like... and they were all thrown at me without any understanding of the principles involved.

[sweet blade]

I think they're gone.

[broken harness]

possible

spellslinger will exist tho

[sweet blade]

Quite.

[sweet blade]

Doubful.

[broken harness]

maybe you are right

[gilded elm]

Yep, just hope they don't end up killing the game on the hill that is their vision. That's the thing about visionaries, they are stubborn as hell.

[pine basalt]

i feel you so much, exactly was happened to me ; people proved 3 weeks later that nerfs was a thing (by analytics / math)

[broken harness]

but spellslinger is thematically perfect for trickster

i am 100% sure the shadow will have one rogue mage class

[sweet blade]

The outlook is not rosy.

[crisp onyx]

like surely

player power grew after harvest which was literally item editor

was deleted

[broken harness]

shadow is dex + int
what does the int do?

[sweet blade]

Not any Trickster I play. 😉 They'll probably get it through other means.

[broken harness]

well currently yeah 😄

[sweet blade]

Cold and calculated action.

[broken harness]

hinting at daggers there

[crisp onyx]

it just looks like they are actually bad at it

[sweet blade]

Correct.

[gilded elm]

Wouldn't have been caught and convicted of crimes if he had so much intelligence 😆

[broken harness]

daggers are one thing for sure, the assassin likely
traps for saboteur
trickster was kinda merged into invoker to an extent so whats the replacement

[sweet blade]

Intelligence is no barrier to making mistakes.

[sweet blade]

Vaal Thaumaturge. 😄

[broken harness]

i think winter orb could fit

[crisp onyx]

poe1 fossils are just alterations with extrasteps

[broken harness]

actually possible now that i think about it

or maybe just call him thaumaturge

not vaal

[sweet blade]

Straight-up was said to be one of the currently-planned Shadow Ascendancies, so...

[broken harness]

since the guy isnt a vaal

[sweet blade]

GGG called it the Vaal Thaumaturge, not me.

[gilded elm]

Their stubbornness makes them look bad, but they radiate with passion for game design for sure.

[broken harness]

oh my bad i missed that

[broken harness]

fair

[sweet blade]

So like the Templar Phrecia Corruption Ascendancy, expect something similar to that, I should think.

[gilded elm]

Jonathan seems like the kind of dude who could and will talk your ass off for hours about any game design topic.

[broken harness]

the spider ascendancy could be a discarded attempt at a thamaturge maybe

[sweet blade]

And, IMO at least, be wrong about 75% of it.

[gilded elm]

I'd be a bit more generous and say 50% lol

A lot of it is gray area stuff that is hard to quantify objectively.

[crisp onyx]

some things are not even stubbornness i fear. you can see it feels bad if you just look at it and play once. and it still passed into production somehow

[sweet blade]

It's bad enough to condescend to people... even worse when you condescend to people who quite clearly know more than you do on the subject.

[broken harness]

a little bit of it maybe i can see that but i think the life related stuff probably doesnt belong on someone with no strength, also blood mage already exists but soul related? sure why not

[sweet blade]

'Feels bad' is unfortunately a subjective argument.

[crisp onyx]

playing melee in sekhemas v1 feels bad

[sweet blade]

Just saying it's likely an Ascendancy focused on Corruption.

[pine basalt]

just realized :: are Blood Mage related to Mageblood ?

[broken harness]

oh i can see that yeah

[crisp onyx]

subjective but you get what i mean

[broken harness]

no

[sweet blade]

Sure, but that kind of argument can be refuted as easily as, 'Well, I found it fun to do," by the developers.

[broken harness]

mageblood gives you 100% potion uptime
blood mage burns life to deal extra damage and then lifesteal it back

i actually really wish blood mage was good i love the theme so much

[sweet blade]

I wish I could ask questions to Octavian0 for five minutes and get honest answers. 🙂

[broken harness]

maybe in LE season 2 i will do some blood spell thing

[pine basalt]

Maybe the mages created it ?

[broken harness]

i dont know

[gilded elm]

While a lot of what Jonathan says sounds good and seemingly makes sense, he does seem to discount the reality that experience trumps theory. For example, the absence of an auction house at this point seems to be an objective pain point in the game's trading lol

[crisp onyx]

but when you think of general audience, what % do you think will like it?

you dont make game for yourself

[sweet blade]

Not from GGG's perspective.

[broken harness]

really wish phys magic was more common and just more life related stuff

but poe2 blood mage is just so bad ugh

[sweet blade]

GGG has been very explicit about the fact that PoE2 is the game THEY want.

[crisp onyx]

o7 then

[gilded elm]

PoE2 is very much a game for Jonathan and Mark yeah, you can feel that.

[broken harness]

first ascendancy is just a downgrade and to make the class worthwhile you really need the later ones and we all know how ascendancy 3 and 4 are 💀

infernalist got the nerf hammer too but shes likely gonna be fine

[crisp onyx]

i have to agree that during interview all the things he said were agreeable

[broken harness]

lich probably A tier class now

[crisp onyx]

till i launched the game

[gilded elm]

There's a disconnect here in what GGG experiences vs what players are experiencing and GGG doesn't seem to get that. You can only say "get gud" so many times before you have to consider that maybe you're wrong.

[sweet blade]

Like, I'm perfectly fine if PoE2 can survive with a 10k player base... more power to them. But they can't do that AND ALSO claim that they're the #1 ARPG on the market, which they and their supporters do claim.

[crisp onyx]

ascendancies in poe2 is keystones for some reason

in poe1 keystones had upside and downside

[broken harness]

speaking of lich, i love the concept but the uptime struggles of the reaper form in LE... bleh reminds me of the d3 trouble

[crisp onyx]

ascendancies were pure power

here you get downsides on everything

[broken harness]

i think downsides are fine if you get something good in exchange

[crisp onyx]

including generic nodes

[sweet blade]

So want to know what the new melee skill for LE Lich in Season 3 is going to be.

[broken harness]

yeah generic nodes having downsides is nuts

[broken harness]

ligma?

[sweet blade]

?

[crisp onyx]

problem i have with 'git gud' is that game is not hard just tedious

[gilded elm]

GGG's entire strategy of handling feedback with PoE2 has felt like them basically telling players to "get gud" over and over, while making small (almost meaningless) "compromises" along the way.

[sweet blade]

Yep, that's the killer.

[broken harness]

although if i had to take a guess why they are doing it in the first place maybe they are supposed to have different downsides so you can pick and choose which ones downside your build is the least bothered by, instead of just picking up every node that gives your phys or whatever

[broken harness]

ligma balls

[pine basalt]

i think ligma is a pun

[sweet blade]

Seriously?

[broken harness]

the skill issue accusations are pure deflection and should never be taken seriously in this genre

[broken harness]

whats the skill?

[sweet blade]

Especially since there is never an attempt to ascertain skill levels before making the accusation.

[crisp onyx]

in some games its applicable, like shmups for example there is no way around it

[gilded elm]

The 6 portal thing is a good example of GGG's mentality towards feedback.

[crisp onyx]

but here? lol nope

[pine basalt]

but it seems so true ! i feel it's just "too hard for me" (looking at you Bosses and hollow knight)

[broken harness]

you can say skill issue in elden ring but not in path of exile

[sweet blade]

All we know is that Lich is getting their final skill sometime soon, and it's a Melee skill.

[crisp onyx]

in poe skill is mostly knowledge

[broken harness]

hollow knight feels fairly balanced

[crisp onyx]

how to build builds and how to farm efficiently

[broken harness]

yes

[sweet blade]

Yes, but less true in PoE2.

[pine basalt]

100% bs ; Mantis Lord is Perfection, rest is git gut kiwi

[broken harness]

lul

[gilded elm]

It occurs to me that PoE 2 and Diablo 4 are two extremes of a spectrum. On one hand, GGG is out here telling people to get gud and deal with it, while Blizzard is basically letting players armchair design their game for them, capitulating to any and all feedback. It really seems LE is the only middle ground here lmao

[broken harness]

i think ravenswatch is also fairly balanced

its hard but its not ridiculous

you dont feel curbstomped

[pine basalt]

i think my "problem" is non-linear progression, when you miss some items / power

[crisp onyx]

most bosses here are very basic, granted i didnt kill pinacles but i dont think they are hard either

or maybe my perception is just screwed

[sweet blade]

Just saying that play skills (e.g., positioning) is more important in PoE2 than PoE1, IMO.

[pine basalt]

never played poe 2 but the "One shot Monkey king" is so funny

[crisp onyx]

i played warrior and my biggest dmg was default attack i dont know what positioning you are talking about

[sweet blade]

omg, that guy... only thing worse for my brother and I was the molten forge thing.

[gilded elm]

More of a two shot depending on how poorly geared you are at that point, but there was a bug where Silverfist (the gorilla boss in Act 3) had an untelegraphed roll that would basically one shot you, fortunately that got fixed lmao.

[crisp onyx]

molten forge is the most annoying for sure

[pine basalt]

thinking of it, i would find it WAY less funny if i played (hardcore)

[crisp onyx]

monkey didnt kill me so idk

[sweet blade]

Died about 8 times to Monkey, I think; over 20 times to Forge guy.

But we finally did it when we were able to keep the Forge guy out of the gold.

[crisp onyx]

i didnt die to forge guy per se

[pine basalt]

here i am hollow knight 57th try....

[crisp onyx]

just ran out of road

[gilded elm]

Slams are meant to be hard hitting and telegraphed, and they are for the most part. It was just that really dumb untelegraphed roll attack he has which had broken damage lmao. Apparently that was a bug.

[crisp onyx]

cuz that boss is basically middle finger to melee

[sweet blade]

To me, a death is a death.

[pine basalt]

Aren't all arpg midfing to melee ? ....

[crisp onyx]

there are some questionable hitboxes

[sweet blade]

Hey, LE isn't terrible.

[gilded elm]

For the most part ranged tends to be king in ARPGs yeah

[pine basalt]

we Fight or we Die ! no other option

[crisp onyx]

not to that degree

[ebon meadow]

Waking up for a smoke mid melé fight discussion

[sweet blade]

I can't think of another ARPG where I'd recommend starting as a melee. I start Sentinel all the time.

[ebon meadow]

Midfi is when u know the positioning

[pine basalt]

yeah i find melee builds in LE very fun, but doing boss with them... (Shatter strike / erasing strike)

[sweet blade]

TBF, some fights in PoE2 are very ranged-unfriendly... Napuatzi, e.g.

[crisp onyx]

biggest LE melee problem is bodying

[sweet blade]

Forged Weapon Rive HH go.

[crisp onyx]

they need to do something with stupid collision

[pine basalt]

sure POE hates melle since ever, i know i played it a bit

[sweet blade]

And it's not even subtle.

[pine basalt]

Before 1.0 you could pass trought monster ! was lite

[crisp onyx]

i would take that

[ebon meadow]

Single handle the boss fight I disagree on in a campaign it should be a map bonus boss

It should not be punishing to reset the fight

[crisp onyx]

ranged can go melee, melee cant go ranged

[sweet blade]

Wasn't too bad for my brother and I. Died a couple times, not too bad.

[pine basalt]

no collision was fun / nice in LE, but there was some "pushing monster way" problems

[pine basalt]

you can go range and /dance

[crisp onyx]

without dealing damage

[sweet blade]

Sure, I agree, but my point is that certain fights punish the ranged 'mindset'.

[ebon meadow]

Arpgs changed melé definition

[pine basalt]

no damage + no substain = 💀

[sweet blade]

Not really. They just made it bad. 😉

[ebon meadow]

There is not such a glass like warrior tank from wow

[crisp onyx]

cant be done

[ebon meadow]

Not wrong ,they made it to clever

[crisp onyx]

warrior from wow doesn include healer in itself

[sweet blade]

The melee vs. ranged distinction is actually best seen in games like Vampire Survivors. It's like the reductio ad absurdum.

[crisp onyx]

in arpg you usually have selfsustain

[ebon meadow]

Why u stand and punch target when u can do It from range ?

[crisp onyx]

usually my defenses should be better

[pine basalt]

Why can't we be tanky as melee with low dps ? you got less dps AND squish lol

[ebon meadow]

Exactly rather the resources u have in the fight ,people complain about to many buttons to press ( I m a Afli warlock from BC LOL)

[sweet blade]

Because no one has really cracked the code of giving melee defensive options without also giving them to ranged.

[pine basalt]

Grim Dawn had "immortal build", but they killed it now everyboddy can be one shotted....

[pine basalt]

was talking about a creator / dev perception

why is it so taboo to be tanky?

[sweet blade]

And, to be clear, Melee to me doesn't mean 'attack'. It means 'being in close range to the target'. So, for me, RF in PoE1 is a melee skill.

[sweet blade]

It's a very interesting question. Especially in an economy-driven game.

[pine basalt]

Speaking about immortal build ❤️ RF was fun

[sweet blade]

Closest I've found outside of Jousis videos.

[ebon meadow]

Poe perspective is rather kill before it can do mechanic on u o deflect the mechanics the boss can apply .stunn it blind it what ever just don't hard hit me

[crisp onyx]

less dmg less clear less economy

i dont see issues

[gilded elm]

Yeah melee vs ranged is strictly a matter of distance. Everything in PoE1 eventually becomes ranged, even "melee" tagged skills will eventually be effectively ranged. There's not really any truly melee build in PoE1.

[ebon meadow]

They did change the perspective of melé a lot

[sweet blade]

Exactly.

[pine basalt]

Man ! didn't recognize the name "Jousis" but his video are so crazy ! peak intellect / creativity to make immortal interactions

[gilded elm]

Once your build is clearing screens, regardless of whether it's a melee skill or not, it becomes ranged haha

[pine basalt]

i member : Jousis becoming immortal and Jousis fighting the server xD

[sweet blade]

He's an absolute legend. I love how he had buildof the week sometime in the last year, some podcast covered it, and it took him 10 minutes JUST TO EXPLAIN THE BUILD.

(To very knowledgeable PoE players.)

For anyone who cares, his YouTube channel is OMGItsJousis. HIGHLY recommend.

[pine basalt]

if someone wants to check the legend, always funny https://www.youtube.com/@OMGItsJousis/videos

[ebon meadow]

https://tenor.com/view/yeah-i-member-memberberries-south-park-i-remember-oh-yeah-gif-20408218

Show me u 2 handers pls that where power comes from

Yesus Christ the meme

I do mean in game weapons

[crisp onyx]

https://www.youtube.com/@eirikeiken
take a look at these builds

[ebon meadow]

Monks don't count should alredy have bis

[sweet blade]

Can't really get past the art style.

[crisp onyx]

its worth it

[sweet blade]

I'll take your word for it.

[pine basalt]

yeah paint (1862) color are stabbing my eyes ><" will look later

[sweet blade]

Ghazzy openly questioning how much longer he can play 0.2... oooof.

[pine basalt]

i'll force him to play ! until the end !

[crisp onyx]

https://youtu.be/IWE7TB2V5RE
here is compilation

[pine basalt]

lol the 3 first seconds ;o

[sweet blade]

Just... this is NOT good.

[ebon meadow]

Oh the intro

And yet they we are lol love the game love being the lab rat

He is not wrong I felt that way even in SC

HC is actually healthy