Explode nerf

[candid island]

Im a rather new player so don’t take this that seriously but I’ve been having some issues with countering explode and I believe this nerf could help.

The nerf would allow structure that are behind another structure to not be ungrounded when the explode hit the front structure.

If you think there is like a counter strat that already exists pls tell me it.

[median crag]

Why? /gen

[candid island]

Because I can’t find a good counter strat to keep my structures grounded and held when a explosive is coming for it

And also the explosive effect piercing through unbroken object is just kinda stupid

[south nova]

Ngl, youre not forced to use a structure thats going to be exploded

When its getting compromised its best to avoid it than sticking with a structure prone to backfire

[candid island]

I don’t use explode

[south nova]

That doesnt change my point?

If the opponent is going to explode your stuff directly or indirectly, if its too much of a nuisance, nothing forces you to work with whatever got exploded in an incomfortable position

[candid island]

Oh mb I thought you meant something else

[fleet bridge]

im sorry but this IS a skill issue

respectfully

[mighty crystal]

Imo explode does need to be nerfed, but not by being less powerful: by having a counter. I really like the "brace" pose suggestion: https://discord.com/channels/362905006275297290/1480286829923270739

Explode right now is both really fun and really unfair if the opponent doesn't have stubborn. It's a bit too OP, having an actual counter to the knockback would alleviate the issue and make combat more interesting than "cESU cESU cESU"

[candid island]

Yeah that’s why I said in the post that Im new and if you have a better way to deal with this to tell me

[fleet bridge]

you need to use another structure to "net zero" it, meaning to hit it with something of equal value

[fleet bridge]

that still has the same issue as guard, why use that when you can just net zero the explode

[mighty crystal]

Uh how do you net zero an explode?

You can waterbend an explosive structure I guess, but if it breaks it's over. It would be nice if it was possible to negate the explosive knockback

[fleet bridge]

..by net zeroing it?

as long as it doesnt explode near you its not a problem...

[mighty crystal]

Well, the problem is that the explode radius is pretty big, you can't net-zero everything while it's far away, especially on client

The main issue is that there's no counter once the structure is close to you, unless you're really good at waterbending at high pace

Stubborn is almost mandatory if you actually want to win in tournaments, just for its knockback canceling

[fleet bridge]

rts

[zinc scarab]

Unfortunately, imo, it doesn’t have a counter. The way to get around it as an issue is, more or less to play around it. And if you want to do that I have some advice. When possible you can go for net zeroes, rts, or use their own clutter against them by forcing them into a bad position. You can also try to time when you spawn a structure for defense so even if it net zeroes, you’ll be mostly fine unless you’re pressed up against a structure or the rings edge. And if you have a wall, for example, in front of you and know that it’s about to be exploded, you can try to parry or stomp it to prevent it from hitting you or pushing you further. IMO I kinda agree that the move is a bit to strong, but instead of nerfing it, it would be better to add something to the game that is actually something that provides a more obvious counter play.

[zinc scarab]

Until then the only thing you can do is put in the time and effort to learn when to do those things

[lapis trail]

does explode go through hitstop

it shouldn't be able to unground during it, as the structure is ungrounded

so like, if you reaaly want a counter

hitstopping during the explosion should keep it grounded when the hitstop is over

gl doing that tho

i might be wrong about this, but with how i know the game works it should work that way

[candid island]

Thank you son much I needed this

[sharp gorge]

honestly i think explode needs a nerf, not cos its too strong but its too generally useful

[zinc scarab]

More or less. I should’ve said so in hindsight, but the reason I think it so strong is because it’s basically the single most versatile move if used right. It’s like the full saying “jack of all trades, master of none is often more useful than a master of one”

[sharp gorge]

i think it should be made more expensive, timewise. Make the pose less convenient, so you sacrifice pace for it

[south nova]

That would buff stubborn

Inderectly ofc

[sharp gorge]

well stubborn already needs a nerf so yeah my take is nerf explode and stubborn

[south nova]

But explode isnt a problem in the game

[zinc scarab]

They could also finally nerf stubborn by making it reduce knockback instead of negate it

[south nova]

There are better ideas to nerf it

[sharp gorge]

me an @true hemlock came up with a fun nerf to explode, which is making a new modifier that would be soemyimes better so rhat explode is more of a strategic choice

[south nova]

Eew

[south nova]

Also, define better in the case of explode😂

Bigger radius

🤣

[sharp gorge]

well this would be entitely different, we were thinking "magnetic" as the new modifier

[south nova]

Also, I went to your town, why didnt you say hello while I was there😠

[zinc scarab]

Yeah. Talking about buffs and nerfs can be finicky. I made a post that tries to allow for things to still act the way they do along side of balancing

[sharp gorge]

YOU WERE HERE??

[zinc scarab]

I’d need to find it to link though

[south nova]

Strom spa

[sharp gorge]

YOU SHOULDA TOLD ME WR COULDVE MET UP

[south nova]

Best idea is for stubborn to work normally with ungrounded structures but you fully eat grounded structures

[sharp gorge]

but yea i was thinkin that players should have to pick between

• higher pace
• explode when the field gets crowded or you need to.unground smth
• magnetic for anti-air, or unexpected curveshots

[south nova]

No bigge, j'ai aussi été faire mes impôts 😂

[sharp gorge]

i think thatd fun and interested

[zinc scarab]

Not bad, though personally I’d like it to not proc on a flow dash

[sharp gorge]

okay well next time u do that tell me i will find you

[south nova]

Uhh👀

[zinc scarab]

High movement can be a pain to deal with when that happens

[south nova]

Actually worst nerf Ive ever heard of🤣

[zinc scarab]

There a reason for that or…

[sharp gorge]

bobo you have to start explaining why you think its baf

bad*

[zinc scarab]

Otherwise it just kinda sounds like Reddit cringe

[south nova]

Stubborn is strong, but its strenght is not related to the prominence of flow

[sharp gorge]

why is it strong, why is that strenght unfun, and how do we nerf it?

[south nova]

As I said, keep it as it is for ungrounded structures, but you eat the full hit and knockback if its grounded. Like that, you cant stubborn to greed af in cqc but its keeps cheap discs in check

[sharp gorge]

i llike that

[kind steppe]

Im a flick player my main counter is faster setups but if your normal then listen to someone else

[zinc scarab]

I’m a fan of that, but I just realized just how off topic this got lol

[south nova]

Yup

[kindred ocean]

what a bizarre statement

imo theres no need to nerf it because it has no counter, thats because it IS the counter to the strongest thing in the game, that being grounded objects, not having explode or nerfing explode would lead to grounded objects massively overperforming because of it

[lapis trail]

Buff other things instead of nerfing fun things imo

[lapis trail]

Explode does have counters tho

I’m kinda confused on what the general point is

I think hitstop and hold are just as versatile

[fleet bridge]

the point is that a new player made the suggestion and they ran into a voli user prob

[zinc scarab]

I can’t remember what I typed and don’t have time to check atm, but the point wasn’t to nerf it, but hopefully the devs will add something that helps more with this as a pain point for new and mid tier players

As well as to give the player some advice

[kindred ocean]

yeah but like asking to change explode is like asking to change charge, it is merely strong due to your lack of knowledge

[true hemlock]

To expand on this:
The game would have multiple “status effects” that structures could have, but they could only have one of them at any given time, and they couldn’t be removed after application.

Explode would become a status effect

There would be a new “base pose” exclusive to status effect modifiers - similar to structure spawning base poses, this would be a dummy pose that all status effects use to be applied

I like the idea that “status base” would be the same as explode’s current pose, and explode would get a new pose - makes things easy to build into muscle memory

The reason for the “status base pose” would be to prevent unintentional pose overlap and give more flexibility to new pose design

We only really discussed the magnetic status effect, which would draw magnetic structures together. Higher damage structures would have higher magnetic attraction, so they’d affect smaller structures more significantly.

Obviously, it would still use the mass of the structure too, so boulders wouldn’t move super fast in comparison to balls.

Other status effects could be something like “shatter” which could cause 1dmg shrapnel to shoot out from a structure when it breaks (which breaks on contact with any surface)

Or a status effect which prevents (or doubles??) dust vfx spawns from the structure

The possibilities are endless, but with each status effect added, it would be more of a situational decision to use explode, which would make it less of a “this is good to use in 99% of cases” modifier

[zinc scarab]

i think there has been a misconception. i DO NOT agree with the OP. i sympathies with them over the frustration they're having over the issue they're expressing. I DO NOT want explode to change. what i WOULD like is there to be something added into the game that provides a more direct counter against it's pain points. I DO think it's to strong, but only because it lacks that direct means of dealing with it. explode isn't strong because it's overpowered, or anything like that, it's strong because of how many ways and situations it can be used. and just to clarify, i don't have a problem with this all that much anymore. i did when i only had 30-40~ hours of experience with the game, but now that i'm getting into striking distance of a flick license, i can't say that (with how the move is used) it feels like i'm basically throwing everything i know at it just to fight it. YOU ARE RIGHT that people need knowledge to be effective, but it takes time to learn when to apply that knowledge effectively. in the original reply you responded to, i gave them advise on how to deal with it based on how i do.

and wether the devs add in something like @lapis trail 's move that increases friction, or something else is up to them. but that's what i was trying to say, and for what it's worth i apologize for the misconception

[lapis trail]

kb is op in this game currently

because there's a lot of situations where kb stacks weirdly to instant ring you out no matter where you are

position doesn't matter much if you just get launched by two walls across the entier map

[true hemlock]

It’s also that there’s no risk vs reward to applying explode in 90% of cases. It doesn’t have much cost, it’s a single pose that quite literally sits in the middle of every other pose, and it may as well just be a flat buff to any structure you put it on.

[zinc scarab]

there is an argument for it being a double edged sword, but it really seams like the pros waaay outweigh the cons. and so one side feels pretty blunt

[true hemlock]

I think the double edged sword case only applies when the structure you just applied explode to blows up in your face

Otherwise, a structure you throw at your opponent can always come back at you with explode applied regardless of whether or not you applied it yourself

That case is more prominent when you have volatile and your opponent doesn’t, though

[zinc scarab]

and thar be the blunt side

when i first developed a volatile playstyle, it (and i'm not even exaggerating) felt like i pulled the lever on a lazy boy and kicked my feet up

not that the matches were easy per say, but it definitely felt like i could relax a lot more

[kind steppe]

I get that feeling I really stopped using voli because I kept forgetting to use flick moves 😭

[kind steppe]

Wait I just remembered something helpful and not off topic

Just remember that when trying to counter voli players (if you have equal pace) they have to do one more pose then you do like cESU is slower than cSU so you could get longer range and more moves off

But
That is assuming that you are an equal to the opponent if there’s a large skill gap then you will likely lose either way

-# unless there one of those cSUE bSE or wSUEK freaks

wait do you know notation? Uhh non notation
bSE = ball straight explode
cESU = cube explode strupper
cSU = cube strupper
wSUEK = wall strupper explode kick

[candid island]

Yeah I know notation

[kind steppe]

Ok I didn’t want to just throw a bunt of moves at you since I know you were new and for any other new players here

[fleet bridge]

most high level players now know SUE

[sharp gorge]

this is true but also false cos some parts of explode are not fun tbh imo

[lapis trail]

i feel like the only issue is the kb sometimes

[sharp gorge]

which yeah knockback in general needs reworking imo

but also, i dont think explode is the worst part of the game, its not even that bad, it just has a lot of potential as an idea and rn its kind of a nothing burger of game design

[lapis trail]

Huh????

wdym it's a nothing burger????

[sharp gorge]

like

its not interesting enough
-# in meta play at least

[lapis trail]

wha

i disagree a lot

[sharp gorge]

hmmmmm

i dont think its interesting because the choice of wether or not to use it in situations is too easy

its not context-dependent enough

[zinc scarab]

i kinda agree that it's not very context dependent. most of the time my games feel like how well i do is dependent on how much i season my playstyle with explode because it's just that useful in most situations

heck. even most ways that i tend to counter things other people do in rumble feels like i either throw explode on for good measure, or because it's almost necessary for the counter to work effectively

i even use it often when applying pressure just to make my attacks harder to deal with if i use it right