#stunlock is insane and super easy

1299 messages · Page 2 of 2 (latest)

muted tulip
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disks costs a lot of space for their structure vslue

glass pecan
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what abt pit

marsh bay
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I think stunlock is equivalent to kb, both being skill issues

Stunlock has more counter play though

I think the core issue is “one small mistake that leads to a loss”

Imo it would be nice not to nerf them, but to add more counter play to give us a little bit of more interaction

A ledge grab mechanic/friction or something for kb

And ways to get out of stunlocks/fight back during them

prisma condor
muted tulip
marsh bay
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They put a timer on your health to some extent, so I think they are a bit effective for that aswell, but they’re powerful for lots of reasons

prisma condor
glass pecan
prisma condor
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just don't use them to stupidly give up space and they're good

muted tulip
prisma condor
glass pecan
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you can disc spam on ring too, its just not optimal against the best players

prisma condor
marsh bay
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But the positioning is more important on ring

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So the kb matters more I think, and it allows good players to take advantage of that

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You’re essentially rate limited if you wanna maintain a good position

glass pecan
marsh bay
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Ye true

prisma condor
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regardless of whether or not discs are actually good though, they're just annoying to deal with so I don't like them

marsh bay
marsh bay
glass pecan
prisma condor
marsh bay
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Fair

glass pecan
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but EVERYONE can agree that 1 wall shouldnt be able to do 9 damage with 1 pop, right?

placid epoch
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Ccq already has the potential for high damage, high risk attacks

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It's just that the damage is 6-9 every interaction, not 20

echo spindle
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just wanna note that i havent been 20-0'ed by anyone bad at CQC

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and even then i dont think i even have by anyone good either

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

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@prisma condor

placid epoch
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dont you usually run stubborn flow?

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or sadamant

echo spindle
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stub voli or stub ada

marsh bay
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Lmao

echo spindle
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i can consistantly stunlock ppl on client with over 160 ping

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and they usually cant

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if i can consistantly stunlock host players WITH flow stubborn on 170-180 ping and they cant i feel that points to stunlock being at least a tiny bit skill based

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currently it is very strong but not totally skilless

marsh bay
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you're a good player 😭

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You also specialise in stunlocking, so it makes sense you'd know how to avoid it xd

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but what about peolpe who're less good?

marsh bay
# marsh bay I think stunlock is equivalent to kb, both being skill issues Stunlock has more...

Like overall i agree getting stunlocked is a skiue
but it is very strong xd

Newer players are naturaly using stunlocks to beat people cuz it's effective and easy to do for example

but the 20-0's aren't the only issue with stunlock, how much dmg Cqc can do is kinda crazy XD
(especially for how easy it is to catch a dash with a wall lol)

Idm it too much, it's weird how fragile we are and i think stunlock realy shows that (I've always said 4 walls is all it takes to beat anyone yk?)

idk what i'm saying much, but i think that we should also consider newer player perspectives on these things aswell xd

echo spindle
marsh bay
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ya..?

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i'm confused on what the point is

echo spindle
marsh bay
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it is at some levels?

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the fact it's possible to do that and it being pretty viable is kinda crazy

echo spindle
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then get better at punishing it 😭

marsh bay
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it's only when people get good do they start to learn to counter that, but i guenuinly struggled against that like a year ago
Now days it'd be so much worse

marsh bay
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i think stunlocks easier then ringing out someone

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Like if they're good, i think it's easier to land a stunlock on them then a ring out

echo spindle
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at least on client

marsh bay
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i guess that matters

echo spindle
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its easy on host but the risk on host is never worth

marsh bay
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yeah

marsh bay
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also one thing i do like about stunlock tho is it feels like scrapping XD

Like you're both just in a clinch and walling on each other lol

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Boxyyy RUMBLEhands

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I scared him away 😔

waxen spear
marsh bay
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Forced long term?

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My porc rank is showing 😔

waxen spear
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if you play better than your opponent then you can put them in a spot where they either ring out or die to damage

marsh bay
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Mm i see

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That makes sense

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But i feel like against a good player (like someone equal to above you) it's incredibly difficult to force a ring out

waxen spear
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yeah

marsh bay
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But you bring up a good point of stunlock requiring a mistake

waxen spear
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but thats mostly just because a good player would always choose dash parry with stubborn over just getting hit

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boils down to the same thing though

marsh bay
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Yeahh

waxen spear
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if you actually get the ring out doesnt matter, its just the thread of the ring out giving you an edge

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either way you get what you want

placid epoch
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my naive opinion is that cqc should be risky and powerful, but not powerful enough to guarantee a kill, even if your opponent bumbles around

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"ethical" cqc (just avoiding stunlock) has this sort of thing, and can be very powerful while still providing your opponent options after they get popped up

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obviously i lean towards thinking its balanced because people can get out of it, and the fact that I play it gives me a bias there, but thats an interesting alternative

marsh bay
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I think with stunlock, it's more common to see imo just because we've, since white belts, always been wary of the ring

But i do think it's easier to make a mistake and get stunlocked (/be vulnerable to it) for it, then it is to make a mistake and get rung out (against good players)

Because we have, like you mentioned, stubborn parry and imo a lot more experiance in avoiding ring outs

I think it's intresting that the ring is like a "fixed*" danger zone, whereas stunlock has a moving danger zone the opponent can manipulate better

-# *The danger zone for ring outs moves as the battle goes on, but the general idea is near the edge is dangerous, and be aware of debris iykwim

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idk if that makes sense tho

waxen spear
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current stunlock isnt guaranteed to kill either

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its maybe 30 - 40% consitent on full HP

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and thats without you doing anything

marsh bay
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too little people in this time have been able to 100% someone for it to be considered "guarenteed" imo

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It does a lot of dmg tho, like Sauer said

placid epoch
marsh bay
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Idk i don't think it will

placid epoch
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people will always get better at executing and avoiding it

marsh bay
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i always worried it would, but even when it got buffed we still don't see it much at high levels afaik (20-0)

waxen spear
marsh bay
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So i don't think it's gonna be a common thing

marsh bay
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-# i tried tho XD

placid epoch
waxen spear
placid epoch
marsh bay
placid epoch
waxen spear
placid epoch
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now its more common, but before?

marsh bay
placid epoch
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micro-optimizations are still optimizations

waxen spear
marsh bay
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it's also slightly faster

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which i think is better, but not very noticably

placid epoch
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mb mb

marsh bay
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even if it helps only 10% of the time, that's better then 0%
Or even putting yourself in avoidable danger 1% of the time

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(especially for how easy it is to do imo)

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this might just be a stone diff tho, as i use Voli quite a bit so i'm more scared of this happening XD

waxen spear
marsh bay
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Tbfff you could be missing out something cuz you're too good for it to make a difference for now

waxen spear
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its just such a nominal difference

marsh bay
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Yeah

waxen spear
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no one wins because of something like that

marsh bay
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i think it helped me tbh

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but again, voli lmao

placid epoch
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do you think stunlock is more helpful than SUE though?

waxen spear
marsh bay
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It only took me like a week to learn, so it might be worth learning just for efficency sake

Even if all else, it might make you able to go 1-5% faster or something

waxen spear
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stunlock definitely has a bigger impact on the game though, just by threatening the space around you

marsh bay
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I think it's defo important to learn

glass pecan
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it isnt fair for the majority of the playerbase

glass pecan
echo spindle
glass pecan
echo spindle
glass pecan
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so i suppose we fundamentally disagree there

echo spindle
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yet i can consistantly stunlock on high ping client

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against stub flow

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¯_(ツ)_/¯

glass pecan
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iirc you dont do the spammy stunlock, right>

echo spindle
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spammy stunlock with specific timings to allow it to work

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like a common setup i do client is w/\KbKcwbwcwc

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@glass pecan

glass pecan
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what in the world is /\

echo spindle
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stunlock notation

echo spindle
glass pecan
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I wouldnt call it spam since it requires 3 structures and uses stunlock knowledge most people dont know

echo spindle
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cube spam has worked on me 1 single time

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every other time its done like 8-10 dmg and then i got out

placid epoch
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cause its really easy to do w..w...w...w...

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etc

echo spindle
glass pecan
glass pecan
echo spindle
glass pecan
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Why should there even be a chance of a 20-0 like ts 😭

echo spindle
placid epoch
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if im able to predict your movements like 5 times, thats enough to kill you with walls

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but you still have options

glass pecan
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What's your point?

echo spindle
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..which brings me back to the point again, very strong, not entirely skilless, on host you should already be winning and its like flick where its unneeded risk for damage, on client there are a lot of moving parts to ensure a 20-0, accounting for the ping and properly doing it

placid epoch
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"very strong" and "not entirely skilless" are two pretty subjective matters

glass pecan
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Its not like we just argued about that exact thing or anything sir

placid epoch
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ik but like

echo spindle
placid epoch
echo spindle
glass pecan
placid epoch
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i think you're kind of assuming that its strong because it can 20-0

echo spindle
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are we serious

placid epoch
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if its not strong, then why does sauer argue against using it?

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he is not omniscient, but he has reasons for believing what he does

echo spindle
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might be the 2 hrs of sleep talking but that is word soup to me

placid epoch
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whats the possible arguments for why it should stay

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and are those justified?

glass pecan
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This thread confuses me so much man

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Everyone here has upvoted but also seem to argue for both sides 😭🙏

placid epoch
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i dont have a particular loyalty to a particular side

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I want to exhaust the argument to make sure we've accounted for everything

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ultimately i think it is a good thing to nerf stunlock, but we should be aware what we're actually doing before we just use the majority to enact change

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discussions shouldnt be who wins or loses, but the action of knowing more about the other side and the downsides of your own side

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if people adamantly stick to their chosen side and never sway, nothing goes anywhere

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thats also why people shouldnt strawman and should instead meet the other side with respect, which is something we didnt really see in the straight cooldown thread

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I thought klibe's suggestion was a bad one, but that didnt mean I had to immediately dogpile on her because she attacked my team

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having your beliefs be firmly entrenched in one side or the other leads to echo chambers and further division

glass pecan
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I think its insulting to the people here to assume that they think like this and dont know this

placid epoch
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you did ask

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we could probably shave 500 messages off this thread by just agreeing if we upvoted

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but that doesnt mean we should

echo spindle
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i upvoted

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i think stunlock should stay in game but be toned down

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also spam

placid epoch
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honestly i think the line between effective cqc and stunlock is very blurry

echo spindle
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meta: stunlock
casual play: "ethical cqc"

placid epoch
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and i would be willing to compromise more towards the stunlock side if I could play to the fullest extent

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ehh

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i feel like that analogy breaks down but i get what you mean

marsh bay
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normaly a cube hitting you does 2-4 dmg most

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8-10 is equivelent of like 5 cSU's 😭

marsh bay
glass pecan
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true, but they designed ring to be like this

marsh bay
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If the devs designed cqc to be another win con, what happens then?

glass pecan
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then i thug it out and whine about it

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it might as well be part of the game, itll be here for a while

marsh bay
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Yeah, imo i don't think the devs intent with it matters much

it's just wether it's designed well or not

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imo i think both 20-0's should have counterplay tho

(For example: )
(ledge grab/friction mechanic to manage KB)
(Counterplay during stunlocks to make them more interactive)

Or something like that, to make the whole thing a little more intresting imo

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I think it'd solve a lot of complaints

glass pecan
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i agree i agree!

kind rain
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For the people saying just don’t let them get close, if you’re on ring and they have stubborn, not letting them get close requires giving up centre even if you hit them (because stubborn), but this leaves you more susceptible to super KB and KB in general. If playing on pit or if ring was bigger it would be fine and I would get where this mindset comes from, but with KB out of control, ring being tiny and for some reason being the chosen map for comp, you can’t give up centre without increasing risk of KB ring out.

The counter argument is to punish the player as they get close with stubborn, but again, broken KB. Plenty of times someone (on client) held a voli object and got forward KB and been put right next to their opponent, then with stubborn they tank one hit before stunlocking.

The combination of 0KB dashing from stubborn, small maps and broken KB when not dashing all together make stunlock a problem.

Also it is so inconsistent, I’ve launched people who don’t even have stubborn and they don’t go up and just sit inside the structure before launching me and stunlocking. It is genuinely random who wins a cqc stun lock encounter, plenty of times I’ve pulled it off on people better than me and many times is been done to me by worse opponents.

echo spindle
kind rain
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Launches are not consistent

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Sometimes they just don’t launch them

bold crest
sour dragon
prisma condor
# echo spindle <@391466330764738560>

The point isn't that it's not skill based or even unfair. This is rumble everything is skill based. The point is that it's just not a fun way to win or lose

echo spindle
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i dont think charge is fun to play against

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shouldnt be in the game then

prisma condor
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Sure there's a discussion to be had there

echo spindle
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lets add flick to that too

prisma condor
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If something is making the game less fun for people then it should be changed or removed

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You could make threads for those if you want

echo spindle
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so games should be balanced around someone deciding they arent having fun?

prisma condor
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Yeah?

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Games are meant to be fun

echo spindle
kind rain
prisma condor
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Well they should be balanced around if the average players have fun, not around if one specific person is having fun

echo spindle
kind rain
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If a minority want something that goes against the majority, then it’s simply valuing the majority more, not discrediting or not valuing minority input

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If a minority wants something that the majority is neutral towards, then it should still be added and the minority opinion is still valued

prisma condor
echo spindle
prisma condor
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Yeah but like everyone gets half host half client

kind rain
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Client swaps so it’s equal over a match

prisma condor
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So it's balanced every 2 games

echo spindle
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we're talking about balancing for 2 different things completely, you're talking about casual play, im talking about comp

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just gonna not argue anymore because we're 2 fundamentally different POVS

prisma condor
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I think comp balancing should be around having fun playing meta no?

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If you think stunlock makes meta more fun then fair enough

echo spindle
kind rain
prisma condor
echo spindle
marsh bay
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it's like kinda boring ngl

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from like all perspectives lmao

kind rain
prisma condor
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If you think stunlock makes the game more fun though then that's completely fine, we just disagree

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Like that's a completely reasonable opinion to hold

kind rain
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Also comp vs casual opinions is kind of influenced by (survivorship?) bias, a lot of people don’t enter comp because they don’t like the meta, not because they don’t like competitive play. Not necessarily that people who like comp like the meta, just people who like the meta can stand comp play. I like competitive play and enjoy challenge and pushing myself, which is why I play comp, but I don’t like the way the game is played in a high level meta scenario.

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I think there could be changes so that the optimal way to play is both more fun and more diverse, meaning meta would be more fun and more diverse

pseudo belfry
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Damn thats a good take

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I’d say that the reason it is strong is because it’s the fastest option

waxen spear
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you wont ever make a game that everyone enjoys, but the way the game is build right now its difficult to imagine anything much fundamentally different from what we have right now

waxen spear
pseudo belfry
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Another good take

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I’d say it could be adjusted though like make it more fun for their player base
But I’m not sure if majority of players are on what side

kind rain
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Majority of players would like it if stunlock is fixed, super KB and KB jank is fixed, stubborn nerf, buffed flight etc. There are many things that could be changed to make the meta more fun, and the way that so much of the player base stays away from comp demonstrates they don’t find meta fun. In the entire OCE region, the only notable comp players are me and a-train, every other notable player (shoeless, rhyme, acorn, windette, coup, jman, gryphon) does not like the meta and stays away from comp.
Saying the game isn’t built for diversity doesn’t make much sense coming from a non comp background for most my playtime. Flick flight, hold flight, railgun, chambering and so much other cool tech exists, but the balance is horrible and pace is the only way to play on ring.

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On pit some diversity already exists because there is breathing room to play reactive or do a small amount of flick bump to air strike for example. Against A-train in comp format match the score was 3-3(1) when I played reactive and didn’t focus on pace, as well as hit 2 air strikes.

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Even then though, only the most basic deviations from pace are currently viable. If they buffed charge to quarter second charge time for example I would see it being somewhat viable and adding more variety. There are so many ways they could just buff existing tech and make it comp viable to add diversity

sly iron
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because it's physically impossible to have the meta fit everyone

kind rain
# sly iron so this is why we have tournaments outside of just standard scoring rules

The problem with mm2 for example is that scoring is subjective and there is bias, especially for the micro celebrities. Additionally, outside of those tournaments there are no judges so you can’t tell yourself “I lost that game but I was more flashy so I was better.” People who play to improve and win have no real metric for judging how flashy they become. Also it’s one comp like once a year or something.

kind rain
# sly iron because it's physically impossible to have the meta fit everyone

Without even taking away from pace and upsetting people who only like spam, it is possible to add variety and make other ways of playing viable, meaning the meta fits more people. Im not necessarily saying they should remove pace, just that other styles alongside pace should be viable. If you enjoy chambering and they buff it to be in line with pace so it can be played in meta comp, pace players are still happy because they can keep playing pace, but then another set of players can enter the comp scene.

sly iron
sly iron
kind rain
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If other play styles become viable, I would definitely expect them to shine in different situations and you can’t always rely on them. Continuing the chambering example, you would need to play at longer ranges but if they got close you would need to be good at pace until you can make space or have good movement.

kind rain
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We kind of got massively side tracked but I would like to point out the upvotes on this post. It is a majority that doesn’t like stunlock. Removing or making it near impossible to pull off would make the majority happy, because the majority doesn’t find it fun.

sly iron
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I don't think the majority wants it removed. The post is about how stunlock can be done with just wwwwww or ccccc rn, which is for sure an issue. Either way there's not really a point in arguing about it considering it's being changed lmao

kind rain
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Do we know how the changes would prevent stunlock. If iron boots is removed but it is being fixed would you just stand on top of the structure and be pushed up as it launches up? I haven’t followed the new changes much.

placid epoch
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so you get more DI potential

kind rain
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Interesting

placid epoch
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i think its less of "you can just sit and prevent your opponent from stunlocking" and more just providing you options to get out of any thing

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also it provides stunlock potential if they can predict

muted tulip
kind rain
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a-train said he could sweep me so i challenged it

muted tulip
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you never accepted btw

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you js said wait til my internet is fixed

kind rain
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no that was a different challenge

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just realised ur a-train as well

pseudo belfry
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Hmmm id say that my issues are just cuz I’m a flick player I’d like if stunlock was nerfed because it’s one of the two strongest counters to flick
-# the other one is dashing twice …. Yeah