#Prevent "stealing" damage credit from/with Adamant, Surge, and Vigor

34 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

normal moonBOT
#

katetimesthree

The damage credit system is somewhat exploitable, leading to situations where shiftstones do/don't activate their effects when you think they should/shouldn't.

What I mean by "stealing" damage credit is that Player A sends a structure at Player B. (As far as I understand) Player A modified the structure last, meaning if it hits a player, Player A will receive the corresponding shiftstone effects.

However, Player B modifies the structure just before it hits them. Even though Player A sent a structure at Player B, which they failed to prevent getting hit by, Player B will be given credit for the hit since they modified it last. This means that Player B will receive their own shiftstone effects and prevent Player A from receiving theirs.

Examples of the above scenario:

Player A, summons a disc, Player B, using Adamant, parries the disc, but is too late and the disc hits them anyways. Player B would activate their Adamant, meaning they take 0 damage instead of the expected 1.

Player A has Surge active and sends a loose cube at Player B. Player B dashes and holds, trying to RTS. Player B holds the cube, but it's too late and gets hit. The cube should deal 4 damage (3+1 from Surge) and grant Player A another Surge buff, but instead deals 3 damage, and Player A doesn't activate Surge.

My reasons for wanting this change is that:

I don't think players should be rewarded for failing to defend.

These interactions are confusing, and it can be unclear what exactly happened when a player takes damage.

It can be frustrating to feel like you were robbed, or scummy to feel like you cheated your opponent.

I propose that there should be a slight "grace period" before modifying structures changes the structure ownership when self damaging. I can suggest 0.5 seconds, but that's just a vibes-based number and it should probably be decided by something more concrete.

To clarify, this grace period would only apply to self damage, and should (...)

#

(...)not apply if a player modifies a structure and then hit their opponent with it within the grace period.

This solution could also create some odd situations. For example, trying to Hold Straight a fallen wall that your opponent modified last and accidentally hitting yourself would give credit to the opponent, but I think overall implementing the grace period would be a net positive.

In terms of shiftstone balance, this is what I predict would happen:

Adamant would receive a net nerf: using Adamant as a safety net for failed parries and RTS would no longer be viable, but Adamant users would more consistently get buffs from their own damage.

Surge would receive a slight buff: While activating Surge from self damage can be used against your opponent, damaging yourself while Surge is active will just damage you more, so overall it would be a net benefit to have damage credit be properly attributed.

Vigor would receive an objective buff: Vigor has no effect on self damage, so taking self damage can't benefit a defender using Vigor, only an attacker.

Considering the common consensus on the three stones is that Adamant is the best, Surge is in the middle, and Vigor is the worst, this change brings the three stones more in line with each other.

However, I think balance is a secondary priority in this situation and the main priority here is reducing the amount of confusing/irritating situations that occur.

normal moonBOT
#

ContagiousPow

I kind of disagree on this point, claiming structures as your own is a neat piece of tech, and it allows for some more defensive strategy, even when you fail.

I think that vigor should receive a buff on its own, and perhaps stubborn should get a nerf, but imo adamant and surge are fairly balanced

#

katetimesthree

ContagiousPow I think I would agree that it would be "neat tech" if it was an option that you had to choose over doing a Parry, RTS, etc. instead of just activating on the fail state of a different option.

As it stands, these interactions happen on accident fairly often, and it's not something you would want get better at. It wouldn't make sense to practice failing RTSes or Parries on purpose.

I don't think there's many situations where you want to intentionally do this over successfully hitting a defensive option. The obvious exception being using Stubborn & Adamant to facetank all of your opponent's structures, which I find to be an unbalanced interaction.

While oversights and exploits like this can make for a deeper, more varied game, I think we need to distinguish good jank from bad jank.

My bottom line here is that If I hit someone with a structure while using a shiftstone that rewards me for hitting someone with a structure I should get that reward.

I'd also reiterate that I don't really want this change for balance reasons, I just thought I'd add that section to make it explicit that this change would have effects on balance.

flint steeple
#

this is a PERFECT example of how this is a problem for both a surge using attacker and an adamant using defender

#

and its only compounded by stubborn+adamant

hollow escarp
#

I do worry a tad about Surge becoming stronger 😭

but other then that, i think a little buffer before ownership is changed should work fine and not damage any of the identiy of adamant, just nerfing it as a failsafe/crutch for missing defences

0.5 might be a tad long, but overal this seems pretty cool

inland rain
#

Counterpoint:
gurge

#

Guard Barbarian style

flint steeple
#

unless like dg doesnt work but that should be accounted for

inland rain
flint steeple
#

no

inland rain
#

Ok

flint steeple
#

that is exactly not what it does

inland rain
#

It makes it activate it for your opponent instead and so not yours, right?

flint steeple
#

well sometimes self damage will not activate, but guard wouldnt be effected at all

flint steeple
#

which doesnt describe any guard tech i know of

inland rain
#

What if I spawn a structure less than 0.5 seconds before it hits me

flint steeple
#

it should just be accounted for by the devs as self damage

#

like with disc guard

inland rain
#

Okay

#

So
Α. Stealing the structure before it hits you doesn't work because it's less than 0.5 seconds
Β. Spawning a structure bypasses that time frame
Γ. What about debris? If you HSU a debris into someone within 0.5 seconds?

flint steeple
inland rain
#

And if you hit yourself within 0.5 it would count as theirs

#

Ok cool

#

Your original post is a lot

#

Sorry

flint steeple
#

yeah its definitely a lot on discord

#

on canny i think it looked better

mortal pier
#

Seems like a nice idea (says the surge player who also wants Vigor buffed :P)