mild raven
We have pure combat missions. This is a pure stealth mission against a "Hardened Target" VIP.
Every merc on this mission gains a special ability "surveil". Target a VIP you can see within 25 meters. Primary objective is to surveil the VIP for X (3? 4?) turns.
Mission automatically fails if VIP becomes alerted.
Primary or secondary objective - leave no bodies.
Violent secondary objective (1 goes missing. Kill a guard and leave no corpse behind. Drones don't count)
@andrew.trese @viral canopy
vocal ember
oh, that sounds cool
I had just been thinking about what would make a pure stealth mission work
frank rose
Love the concept, as you can be warned up front that it's pure stealth. We had a number of these missions in the pre-alpha sets that would fail on conditions like reaching SEC level 2. But they never really felt that good,
Now that we have a lot of missions and they could be the spice to the larger gameplay, that sounds pretty awesome.
The closest design we had here was a thing called blackmail message, which is a mission and where a VIP is moving across the map and you had to get with in 10 meters of him and use up Talent called "send message". It wouldn't fail if you were spotted. But once alerted the VIP is going to run for the exit, which drastically ups the difficulty, forcing you to chase them, usually into the mouth of the bodyguards
Both still sound cool
mild raven
Yeah, design wise it wantes to get away from AI security levels. Till I thought that a single person you don't want to Alert is already a mechanic in the game and would be different and more intersting.
Stealth classes like Vanguard are going to shine in this like combat classes due in pure combat missions.
vocal ember
glitch to a rooftop 🙂
tired fulcrum
We have pure combat missions. This is a pure stealth mission against a "Hardened...
Love this idea, but I think it would need some very specific map designs and/or changes and different impediments than 'mooks on patrol' or 'devices'.
Really, setting up the basis of this mission type should fill in detailz -
why are surveiling this person (is this a shakehands for a character on a power play theyre running with someone else? Is this an actual transaction? Is this a torrid illicit romance that the VIP is keeping a lid on because husband and megacorp shares hang in the balance?)
Where? I instantly perked up about this idea because it could allow more 'public' mission venues, like a rave or club, where catching VIP letting their 4 inch pump with knife in the heel playfully dangle in front of the object of their affection in the VIP booth is the thing to catch and observed over time as it gets flirtier and flirtier with each turn. Thats an option to maybe develop but observing transactions and associations can be done on current maps with entry exit points, for sure.
How? So in a lot of movies and games, surveliance is not static, its protag following target through public venue and trying to not lose observation so that you can eventually make their associate and get even luckier with the content of their interaction. It might be hell to make, but surveiling success could be layered with 'made where they went', 'made who the met with', 'made what they did', 'made the composition of what they did'(oooh lala if we are talking our hot lady boss stepping out on her husband), but these can be reward intervals perhapz
mild raven
Love this idea, but I think it would need some very specific map designs and/or ...
Gotta start with the basic before adding on the extras.
tired fulcrum
Yeah, basic shakehands and transactions nobody should know about are right there and available given the maps and general 'we are in a warehouse, the perfect place to transfer goods' or 'we are in the lab talking a really bad idea for power'
vocal ember
Love this idea, but I think it would need some very specific map designs and/or ...
I think it works as a proc-gen, and could work on most maps if the requirements are not as strict. e.g. only need 1 "surveil" action
just adjust the patrols and security and this would work fine, i think
tired fulcrum
Actual security checkpoints that allow VIPs into the weekly clandestine wireghost CKF TTRPG game, and august Biomimics their way into the line...
mild raven
It could be an opportunity for procgen stories based on the map. A VIP on the delta clinic or cyber surgery maps might be getting a tune up or new cyber install your contact's wants to know about. In the sewers to discuss active combat. On the oil rig to discuss black market actions. Just a little tweek here and there.
vocal ember
it sounds like you are talking about something other than surveillance
mild raven
I am talking about storyline generation based on what you surveil.
vocal ember
okay. but you said proc-gen so I'm confused
tired fulcrum
Imagined it initially as 'the story of this world is fleshed out through this even moreso' while still be procedurally generated and not given a bespoke 'story mission' tlc hand
Like the details of what you observe and see set up more missions and make a stochastic story but they arent heavily scripted with beats or punches ala Carnivore
tired fulcrum
And I think I got it that way because it seemed a little shy to make them 'storyline only mission' when trying to make more general mission variety
vocal ember
Like the details of what you observe and see set up more missions and make a sto...
that's not proc-gen, then
tired fulcrum
How so? I thought the distinction was the amount of hand crafted scripting under the mission hood as to make it unique. Either way, i think the conception is 'these are mixed in with other missions you get at random and arent going to be heavily scripted with specific story'
So not part of the larger retirement story, maybe part of a power play, definitely alongside a random scav raid
vocal ember
if it leads to another mission, that implies scripting, doesn't it?
they have begun to add more proc-gen elements, including straight-up proc-gen style missions in random maps, to storylines, but they are storylines, not proc-gen
vocal ember
perhaps I'm not quite understanding what you are describing.
tired fulcrum
Hmmmm, I thought proc gen was more about the discrete scripting in the mission, not whether it forwards or gets a story hook from it. Thats a more colloquial understanding perhaps, where its more about mission scripting and who gives it and how they give it, than it being in a storyline or not.
Regardless, to sprinkle different type of missions in, itd be neat if there was one offs that contribute to world building and vibes, and it wasnt strictly for some larger character purpose or motivations. Even if they might be step 1 of a power play 3 mission set in some cases too
vocal ember
you don't think most of the storylines are like that?
tired fulcrum
They dont involve executive picadillos and catching them in the act, lol
tired fulcrum
I dont know, I feel like I differentiate 'one off scav raids', 'powerplay sets' and 'retirement story' into different buckets and the powerplays do a lot of fleshing out of 'big things are happening in new boston'
tired fulcrum
Then theres the character arcs with emilie, zasha, et al. In their own bucket
vocal ember
yeah, and those are storylines, too
you'll notice that all of these categories are spelled out in the storylines page
so, a more fundamental question--do you see this surveillance mission happening more than once?
tired fulcrum
But powerplays, character arcs and retirement do function differently and only resemble one another in having narrative direction, and only the character arcs and retirement have clear narrative hitpoints that the powerplays dont. And more than once? Heck yeah, I would like to see them as one offs, and to sub in for legwork if its a 3 mission set.
Some of those legworks probably involve this
vocal ember
you seem to be saying they are one offs, but also saying they are more than once?
this is where I'm getting confused
tired fulcrum
Its a mission type where you should be able to get it as a one off to a contact like a scav raid, but it should also be integrated into character arcs or power plays if possible. Generally, I dont want it locked behind powerplays or character arcs or retirement because you might miss playing it at all
vocal ember
most storylines are not locked behind power plays or character arcs or retirement
okay, let me see if I understand
split storm
idk if anybody here played wildermyth, but there's an important middle layer that ckf also has, at least theoretically in the casting director. in wildermyth, quite many of the storylines had a required trigger; if any of the mercs had the trigger, that storyline could start. quite many storylines also set triggers, like storyline A sets "this merc got partly merged with a fire elemental". then some other storyline B that had a trigger "must have a merc partly merged with a fire elemental" could come. So A and B weren't specifically created as an arc, but it would work out that way.
vocal ember
you want this to be proc-gen but somehow hook into storylines?
vocal ember
idk if anybody here played wildermyth, but there's an important middle layer th...
yes, CKF has that, though it is not used much yet
tired fulcrum
Potentially that yes. So some of the off camera machinations you know are happening to characters, you might get a surveliance mission that shows you rather than tells you why that happened or foreshadows something that will happen, but doesnt directly influence that thing happening, or doesnt directly influence it with you making a snap decision at mission's end
split storm
the key point is that if missions set triggers, and missions require triggers, then you can't really say "scripting is required" to have arcs like that.
vocal ember
the key point is that if missions set triggers, and missions require triggers, ...
no, I agree with that. that just means setting tags.
vocal ember
Potentially that yes. So some of the off camera machinations you know are happen...
this, however, sounds like it needs scripting
maybe I should just give up on trying to understand it
I do want to see more tags set by missions, including even proc-gen missions
and wider use of tags, of course
split storm
i'm not entirely sure what "off camera machinations" mean here, but suppose you have done something and now a contact considers you an enemy. a surveillance mission could be generated on that enemy.
tired fulcrum
Hahah I mean, you have a very literal and technical understanding of the game being the Cleric Among Clerics of the game, but I think most of us are in the ballpark of 'this should be able to function like a one off so we can get a one off, and if there is a potential for it to recieve and pass off story hooks, all the better.
vocal ember
it's the receiving storyhooks step that I think requires scripting
unless it is merely tags
but reacting to tags does require scripting, too
I could possibly see lightly-scripted proc-gen which is more tag-aware, perhaps
split storm
we don't know what the casting director actually does, but in wildermyth you would just set some tags after missions, and say that certain missions required certain tags, and the game engine would put them together. if we have to write a script for each tag, then the casting director really doesn't do what i thought it did.
tired fulcrum
Yes, but not so heavily in how the mission is scripted with 'VIP enters area, VIP moves to gate 1, is offered a smoke and declines' but what information is observed and passable
vocal ember
we don't know what the casting director actually does, but in wildermyth you wou...
yes, and as I said, CKF has that already
but you do need something to react to tags
storylines do what you are talking about, @split storm, because they are scripted to do that
I'm not seeing how proc-gen can react to random tags
tired fulcrum
I dont think you can avoid the kind of scripting to get two bosses into the room to have a chat, thats fine, its more about how unique that is and whether its possible to script half the maps to allow a surveil mission. Everything with story hooks follows after that methinks, where it would be cool to dish dirt we saw first hand and maybe get an obligation out of the target, or leak it to cause an exposure break, or other things like that
And maybe, as part of a powerplay, youre getting dirt as one mission, for the peacenick rolling a powerplay
vocal ember
I dont think you can avoid the kind of scripting to get two bosses into the room...
okay, here's what I think you are describing--
you get a proc-gen surveil mission. it sets some tags, possibly including specific targets surveiled. later, other storylines can grab that tag and incorporate it. is that close?
tired fulcrum
Pretty darn close, yes
vocal ember
light shines on marble head! okay, got it!
(yeah, that should be "dawns" but my head is pretty shiny 😆 )
Sorry, I was thinking it was the other way around--storylines setting tags that the proc-gen was picking up on
tired fulcrum
Lmao, but yeah, its hard to articulate in systemese how it would be neat to have something that potentially informs other parts of the game without being a direct decision or pass/fail
Sitting in on how an exposure break for Dusty happened, and letting Dusty know who blew them up by observing the doublecross and actors involved..thats some world building without direct influence like letting the hacker you screwed into your employment know, or the Ricksham Drip decision
vocal ember
yes, it would be nice if proc-gen missions set tags. my understanding is that is currently possible, but does not currently. but, for instance, the fact that you did a hit on a Brave Star VIP might be worthy of a tag.
tired fulcrum
Lol, if it gets me another Brave Star Pure Combat where theyre dropping two pods of mooks per turn, I think thats well earned
Good god that was hairy
vocal ember
or an element in dialog with/about the enemy captain you meet in Carnivore
it's likely that some such tags are already set under the hood. for instance, someone noted that the head hunter hired by Bravestar said something about that enemy captain
the thing is, those dialogs and other tag reactions do have to be scripted
so it's a lot more complicated than just setting the tag
tired fulcrum
Taps nose it is neat theyve designed the system to seemingly accomodate that, like ive been impressed with what seems like a semi modular system that on top of all else, allows you to update without savegame breaks. Thats a good sign
split storm
honestly, i think we all have different assumptions about what the CD does, what can add tags, what tags can be added, etc. It's like a kid at Christmas who wants this new toy. Christmas eve, he can think of ten super-cool things it will do, once he opens it!
tired fulcrum
May we forever live on the eve of christmas imaginings?
young holly
I like this mechanical structure as one that lends itself to use in multiple contexts.
languid flame
It does seem plausible to have proc-gen vignettes. It seems like a nice place to get Trese Bros games. Some of the STF routine missions were multi-step and had a slight bit of sequence or plot to them. I wouldn't expect too much more from CKF. The missions are much more involved, but from a high-level plot point, the STF organization should work.
split storm
hm. stf vignettes were unrelated, that is, there was never a case where one set of vignettes could add a tag, which would be required for some other vignette. each one could occur in any order and there was never a sense of an "arc" built by player action. i am hoping that ckf casting director will offer a lot more than that.
languid flame
If a motivation layer with some choices were added to proc-gen missing, then they could assign tags based on the contacts and choices involved. Then other versions of proc-gen could use those tags to build on a mini-story. Depending on RNG and choices, then the vignette could progress or collapse and remove the tags. Maybe they resolve into a bonus, or a stolen e-rifle, or an opposing contact assignation.