About Talents(=skills) rearrange.

[upbeat pine]

I. Introduction & why I write this.
Greetings to Devs and other Cyberknights! I played this game for 111 hours, kind of newbie compared to other cyber knights. But whenever I played this game, it feels like "why stealty skills and combat skills arranged on same skill tree? sometimes it too consumes training points". So I'm writing this on this forum.

I'll write each classes' skill category and which skill would be good to arrange and why I think so. I'm not thinking about changing skill's descriptions.

And please, I'll write too long, so I don't want interrupt during I'm writing. If you have opinions, Would you write after "V. Conclusion"? Thanks.

II. Rearrange of Talents

1. Cyber knights
   (1)Buffer: Precomputive Advantage->Sync->Rewind->Tactical Surge+Centering, Steamroll
   (2)Debuffer: Lookahead->Interference Spike->Downder->Atomic Stutter
   (3)Quantum Fighter: Security Scramble->Disentangle->Quantum Assault
   (4)Reason why I think so: To me, Cyber knight feels like commander of team. but in 'Quantum' category, it seems like buff talents and debuff talents are mixed. Plus, in the story line, it seems Cyber Knights can use Quantum skills, so I think "How about Quantum skill would damage or debuff robotic enemies?"

2. Soldier( not much to rearrange)
   (1) Full Auto: Covering Fire->Overwatch->Pop-Slot->Splatt-Patt->Plaster-Cross
   (2)Precision: Iron Grip->Cross-Hair Lock->Red-Dot->Marker-Sight
   (3)Tactical Training: Entrench->Blast Radius->Coordinate Charge->Run&Gun->Recoup->Savagery->Roll with it
   (4)Why I think so: as my 3 try, I didn't used soldier class much, so my understanding of soldier class is bad. But whenever I used this class, it feels like Light Machine Gunner. But we cand use DMR or sniper as Soldier class. But even in 'precision' category some skills are for full auto guns. so to giving a chance to use LMG or DMR, I'd like to think LMGs are much more focused on spreading bullet skills, and precision skills are for More damage like DMR.

3. Sniper
   (1)Pathfinder: Pathfinder->Quiet Kill->Fleeting->rapid ready
   (2)Oneshot one kill: Skullshot->weak spot->hit streak->nest
   (3)Spotter: Deathwatch->perimeter eye->strike zone->JTAC
   (4)Why I think so: I tried to use my sniper in silent mission, but even lvl 5 outlaw longshot with lvl 1 suppressor, noise range is 36 meter. which is same to TacSurge, most wide ranged skill. So using snipers during Plan A(meaning stealthy in Payday 2 game) mission is nonsense. So I think how about rearrange silent skill and more deadly skills in same category.
   Plus, traditionally, Snipers doing role in spotter, so 'Remote Support" category is kind of spotter talents.

4. Gunslinger
   (1)Equilibrium: Twin Iron->Fanning->Richochet->Gun Kata
   (2)Quickdraw: Gunsmoke Drift->Quickdraw->Trigger Vector
   (3)Tricker: Flush->Finger Trick->Snapshot->
   (4)Why I think so: Yup. Gunslinger. One of my favorite class. Whenever I used this class, I saw Gunslinger with twin revolver strkied over 900 damage with maxxed Twin Iron skill. It's damage is Crazy, so I would like to define this class as 'nuke'. Plus, it feels like gunslingers are masters of pistol&revolver.
   But to me, skill tree is awful. not much categorized, so I set weapons skill on 'Equilibrium', reaction related on 'quickdraw'.
   Plus, Gunslinger's image is duelist, not assassin. so stealthy skills such as throwing bullet and hands up is not much useful while I take on Gunslinger class. Maybe this skill would be changed to other class

5. Vanguard
   (1)Chameleon: Silence->chameleon->Overdrive->Blend->Projection
   (2)Lure: Lure->
   (3)Deceiver: Jamkit->Bodybag->Refract->K-Protocol
   (4)Why I think so: Whenever I used this class, it's kind of ninja. and Vanguard cannot wear heavy armor, so not fit to pitched battle(or Plan B-a word used in Payday2). But very useful during Plan A missions.
   However whenever I watched this class' skill tree, it seems like battle related skill and stealthy skills are mixed. so I'm suggesting "how about bringing gunslinger's bullet throwing or hands up to vanguard, instead giving domeshot and synapse short to gunslinger?"
   Plus rearranging talents with hiding from enemy/luring enemy/deceiving enemy would be more easy to understand to people

6. Agent Ex
   (1)Anti robotics: Line Crawler->N-Coat Bullet->Leech->Aimlock->Extra Automatic
   (2)Deceiving: White Noise->Shadow->Glitch->Smokescreen
   (3)Body with Nanites: Adrenaline Flows->Life Hack->Supremcy->Armor Ex
   (4)why I think so: Compared to Scourge, Agent-Ex' nano hive implanted on fast brain, so as scourge's chem hive implant. So I think "how about agent-ex is specialized on anti robotics, and scourges are focused anti robotics?" so I categorized like this.
   Plus, I'd like to separate battle skills and stealthy skills, so I divided in different category. And seems many people says "we need nerf smoke granades" so I put smoke screen's talent way far.

7. Scourge
   (1)Anti Bionics(or shotgunner): Bio coat bullet->aero-shrap shell->nervo-toxic shell+Brainworm/Disorient
   (2)Granadier(or Blight Granade): Venom Trap->Detonation->Morass->Tox cloud
   (3)Plague Doctor: Dissolve->Purge->Reknit->Metabolize->Callus
   (4)Why I think so: As I showed my opinion on 'Agent-Ex', Scourge is more specialized on Anti-bionics. And when I saw this class I thought "Wow, this class looks like Plague Marine in Warhammer 40K"
   But once again, seems skills are arranged very randomly, so I'd like to rearrange like 'specialized on shotgun'+'specialized on granade, like plague marine's blight granade'+'plague doctor which cleanse corpse, heals ally'

I'd like to rearrange more, but I omitted many skills because during I writing this, I didn't checked many talents(=skills) so I don't know much of that. so omitted skills would need debates with other Cyber Knights

III. About Extra Item Carry

In Every class' talents, middle category's final talent is Extra Item Carry. But Unlocking this talent takes much training points, talent itself takes 11 training points to max up. Even other expensive talents takes 8-9 points as I know, and 11 points is too expensive, so no one would unlocking this talents.

Furthermore, as Every classes has that talents, I think it doesn't has separating this class to that class. so not attracting talent.

So I suggest how about erasing that talent, but adding such option on armor. Like lvl 6 legendary heavy armor has 2 slots, lvl 5 legendary heavy has 1 slot, or lvl 5 epic light armor has 1 additional slot. similar to XCOM2

And with adding such option, to make balance, decrease initiative almost 10~20 as penalty.

We need discuss about this more, I think

IV. Skill category design change

One of I liked was there are 'junctions' so I can move one skill category to other category. This is good idea.

But skill category shows like cylinder type, so if I'd trained A cylinder skill, and move to C cyliner, I have to take B cylinder's skill which means I consume extra training point.

So how about skill tree's design as cylinder type to circle type? like Endless Space 2's tech tree

(Like this)

V. Conclusion
(1)Maybe at first devs and quality control's beta tester would have idea about talent arrange, talent tree. I'd like to respect them, and i don't like to offend them. But whenever I played this game, skill tree did not well categorized, so sometimes skill points wasted. So I'd like to share my think and want to improve this.

(2)And I know This game will be opfficially released in May 15th, so you guys are really busy for final check. and showing this opinion would be too much burdens to devs. I'm sorry about this.

(3)From 2012, I played Tresbrother's Startrader 3d(I forgot its name) on my android phone, and 2016, star traders 4X empires. 2020 Star Trader Frontiers on my iPad, and really fun. in 2025 I played Cyber Knight, and it is fun too. I'm really thank to Tresebrother and other Devs. It is good to see indie game company keeps growing.

[tropic pivot]

Ew. I'm sorry, I usually try to be very supportive, but ew.

[torn heart]

we are excited to be working on talent balancing and some tree re-arranging atm as we ramp up toward our release date

I will be looking over your suggestions in depth, as it might help us get the best tree structure and add/remove connections

we will nto be changing the class tree structure for the game

we also want to be careful directly snagging lines from other games, "One Shot, One Kill" is so deeply associated with Widowmaker I would guess that it feels really out of place to just jam it in here

[iron crow]

I love hands up. It is why I take my gunslinger on every stealth Mission.

[upbeat pine]

I used my vanguard with gunslinger. Because I thought twin iron with pistole would kill enemy quickly and stealthy.

Anyway after I used vanguard-gunslinger, hands up is more useful than domeshot.

But after I used that class, I came up ‘so vanguard is ninja, how about giving hands up to vanguard, and gunslinger is taking domeshot rather than hands up?’ So I suggested like that on my vanguard suggestion.

Of course, I’m not offending you, and we have more creative ways for talents. But considering each job’s role, gunslinger is master of pistol&revolver, so domeshot would be much fit than handsup, i think.

[upbeat pine]

I always thank you to devs to made this wonderful game.

By the way, after I wrote all about each class’s tanlents, I forgot to write about cybersword’s talents.(I omitted Hacker too, but I don’t have any opinion on Hacker) May I write cybersword’ talents almost 8-12 hours later? Sorry for omit.

[iron crow]

Classes are less of a role and more of a thematic toolbox, which works well because of multi-classing.

Hold-up fills the classic gunslinger-cowboy image.

Plus every class should have the ability to combat and to stealth.

[quasi harbor]

I don't consider Vanguard to be Ninja, but rather Thief

[upbeat pine]

Sorry for late. I was thinking about what would be cybersword's talent rearrange.

(1)Jigen Ryu: improved Power Slice->Slantslide->choppa
(2)Liechtenauer: Sure Parry->Light Foot->Whisper Kill->Preeempt->Aegis
(3)Next Gen swordsmanship: Deflection Field->Arc Field->Shielded Rush->EMP->Power Cycle->Adaptive Restruct
(4)Why I'm think so: I took some time for finding world's famous swordsmanship. so I named like that.
(a)Jigen Ryu is traditional Kagoshima, Japan's swordsmanship. It's similar to Banzai Charge, so more destructive charge, noisy, but no defensive skill would fit to it's name. I'm adding one of their training on YouTube
https://youtu.be/c6Zch_AUEnA?si=Snu4vTjhMvd3ceIN

(b) Liechtenauer: Well known famous Renaissance Swordsmanship. Balanced with attack and defense, parrying. And you know, Renaissance swordsmanship is developed on street/alley fighting, so it would fit to silent fighting. so I arranged 'silent' talents. plus parrying talent.

(c) But I can't find final swordsmanship, so just named 'next generation' put for kind of technical skills. 

But after I rearranged it, (a) 3 talents, (b) 5 talents (c) 6 talents, which is not buch balanced. might be need more balance.