#Counter Intuitive Armor System

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

inland shoal
#

Armor works by reducing damage by a percentage and this leads to the counterinuitive case where smaller caliber arms such as SMGs (not pistols because they have low armor shred) and ARs are actually better vs heavily armored enemies than sniper rifles. Let's say the damage works like
2 AP shot of AR for 200 damage, reduced by 50% armor to 100
3 AP shot of SR for 300 damage, reduced by 50% armor to 150

There are several factors here that make the AR better than the SR at dealing with higher armored + high HP foes such as mechs:

  • full auto allows you to shred multiple enemy armor in one action
  • the total amount of your damage mitigated by armor is lower so you "waste" less damage
  • you can shoot at lower AP cost so you have more chances to shred since you can only shred 1 armor per attack
  • AR armor shred % is higher than SR (e.g. level 5 rare AR dragonroar has 30% burst / 25% full auto shred vs 20% for level 5 legendary SR outlaw longshot vs 25% for level 5 rare SMG Heavy AutoMag)

For me, armor should intuitively work better vs smaller arms than high caliber rifles. This doesn't mean a percentage armor system is fundamentally flawed, just that with the current damage distribution for the different weapon types, it is counter intuitive for me which weapons do well vs armor

upbeat cedar
#

Absolutely correct - AR and SMG and UAR are better at armor shredding than Sniper.

SR basically not on the list of good armor shredders 👍 the high velocity, single round can cause a lot of damage but does not destroy reactive armor in the same way as a cluster of rounds

Not every weapon can do the same thing.

feral sonnet
#

there's actually two ways in which weapons can be good against armor - shredding and pure damage

#

it wouldn't make sense for even high-caliber weapons to be good at shredding

#

I could see sniper rifles getting a hefty amount of pure damage though, similar to revolvers

inland shoal
stuck trout
#

Pure damage is this games stand in for penetration.
Armor shred is blasting away at the ceramics plates

#

And while I'm with you that snipers feel like they should have high pure damage, they in fact do their busness by hitting people in their unarmored face (which is why they have extra bonus crit damage and stealth crit damage)

inland shoal
#

Currently, unless you are critting, you do no damage

stuck trout
#

The talent trees on sniper should be getting you up there in terms of crit chance. You might want to MC a little into vanguard or soldier if you want really guaranteed crit chances

feral sonnet
#

you do the same amount of damage as other weapons that don't shred or have pure (I do agree that sniper rifles should have some pure damage)

stuck trout
#

because honestly, sniper rifles one shot everything, when they are in the hands of skilled mercs. IE: higher leveled

inland shoal
stuck trout
#

so they are a skill based weapon, where as SMGs are good old spray and pray

#

I did see you mention that, but I didn't chime in just because everybody else had it covered

feral sonnet
#

but so far o normal my vanguard/sniper has one-shotted everything I really wanted one-shotted via guaranteed crits, armor or no

inland shoal
#

What PL are you currently at?

stuck trout
#

and while I don't disagree with you, its really hard for me to find a solution because I WANT to play a high crit build 😦

inland shoal
#

At higher PL you'll get mechs with like 80% armor and 450 HP

stuck trout
#

that is naturally what I play.

inland shoal
#

So you'll need to do 450 / 0.2 = 2250 unmitigated damage to one-shot them

feral sonnet
#

hmm yeah haven't encountered that yet

stuck trout
#

I play custom, more or less what you might call ultra chrome? I cranked every bar up or down to make things as hard as I could

inland shoal
stuck trout
#

and... that skews my viewpoint

#

its why I try not to argue about other peoples experiences because their play is as valid as mine

feral sonnet
#

seems a bit gimmicky to me, don't hate it, but sounds like something that's a pain to set up

stuck trout
#

not wrong. But... setting up a sniper's nest and gunning down the entire room in one turn FEELS SO GOOD

#

I've posted pictures about how crazy you can stack AP.

#

but if your not min/maxing like I am... that 3ap per shot for not-a-kill feels awful

#

100% agree that pre-setup sniper rifles feel underpowered

#

now... of course there are ways around that, like making your secondary weapon something that excels in sudden face-to-face combat like an silenced SMG

inland shoal
#

How do you get more AP other than skullshot and the +2 AP from the CK ability?

stuck trout
#

Right side of soldier's tree has an on-kill talent that gives you ap AND has an on-crit talent that gives AP

inland shoal
#

Ah ok you have the sniper - solider multiclass, yeah that's impossible for my CK + sniper

stuck trout
#

and there is a dodad that you can inject into another player so you can have your CK not only give the +2ap but also another +2. (or... +3 I am lacking coffee)

inland shoal
#

I don't like that the CK is kind of forced to be a support

stuck trout
#

in that case, while you can't stack as high you CAN go over to the CK's right side and get ult-pump for another +2ap

inland shoal
#

Their abilities are objectively strong, but they make everyone else better while not benefiting themselves much

inland shoal
stuck trout
#

sure is. But that is what I meen by high-skilled High-level makes sniper rifles really good

feral sonnet
#

you can beeline through pretty much only good stuff

stuck trout
#

and its not like the nodes are bad they are just not exciting as a cool power that gives you AP every time you give someone a third eye socket

#

again: big investment... but if you take the sniper's combo on hit and snag every single node that boosts it (I did a count, its something like +12% per hit) you easily reach every shot-is-a-crit killing power

inland shoal
#

I mean with base crit 70% and a skullshot to increase that to 95%, that's kind of already what I have

stuck trout
#

which might be more how a CK/Sniper wants to play. it does meen chasing nodes ALL over the map, which does not feel intuitive of course

inland shoal
#

Feels fun in the midgame since you are killing everything with 3 AP / 1 shot, but then you start being able to do the same but better with AR

stuck trout
#

There is a nest/blend build from sniper vanguard that I thought was perfect for sniper rifles.. but quickly found out that it works so much better for auto-fire weapons that it feels off

#

that a class combo that includes stealth and geared to one shot weapons would be the best, hands down, at ratatatata weapons

upbeat cedar
#

lots of balance threads to tease out

#

today's update starts the mass re-scaling of enemies

#

and the march to extending their scale, finally paying for their armor and weapon upgrades they've written so many petitions about

#

underlying so much of these threads is "SR are overkill for the current enemy progression beacuse AR are overkill for the current enemy progression"