#Cyber Knight "flavour" talents/upgrades

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

mystic rivet
#

Suggestion: change the two passives in CK tree (Offensive Steamroller and Downer) to give two active talents that focus more on "quantum magic" (not sure where these would fit, but ideally on the middle tree). May be pick one or the other sort of approach to give flavour and show that there is only so much "quantum RAM" available. I am thinking about one skill being "Bully opposing AI" and disrupt tally / AI actions (a bit akin to leverage options). The second being AOE effect to disrupt quantum communications between AI and guards/enemies, flipping their status randomly (unaware/suspicious/alerted) and also changing move pattern / actions randomly. May be giving some random debuffs to enemies as well (picked from the pool of -% accuracy, -% move speed, -% evasion, -range, - MP, -AP). Would probably need to put AI into higher alert/security level to balance out.

#

Another option: rather than being talents in the skill tree, these would be "upgrades" for Quantum rider implant that you insert into slots, where number of options available would be greater than the number of slots. Once upgraded, you gain associated skill to go with the chip similar to how items work (except these ones are permanent).

#

Potential upgrades: in addition to two above, single target pure damage nuke/DOT to account for quantum virus frying the implants, ranged destroy armor by disrupting nanomaterials, ranged disarm by disrupting biometric weapon locks, iFry in the matrix to bust AI (after all this was what cyber knights were supposed to do), wireless access to Matrix terminals or being able to interact with other chips/locks/objects from x meters, being able to hack biometric locks for weapons (?), drone stun, "worm jam" that allows you to take control of an enemy unit for x turns.

split torrent
#

I like the way you're approaching that and I think Downer may just be offputting because it's activation is so conditional and hard to control effective use (and that feels very off for the 'two steps ahead' motif of a CK).

My thought for a direct ability was Entanglement. We have Disentanglement to act as a harassing tool for electronic foes (drones), why not Entanglement as a way to share damage received between two targets. Feedback one feels is transmitted to the implants of hte other, for partial damage. Put that on an at risk runner, or yourself, and it could by you a lot of breathing room or mitigate a potential bad moment.

Seems like it has both direct applications and fits the commander style of the CK in my mind.

I quite like your Tally removed idea as well. That does feel 100% in vein for what's misisng as a direct advantage currently only in Vanguard(?), I think?

shut crater
#

How about a token like system for the quantum effect, eg. you have 4-5 effects (details of each depending on QR upgrade level) and each turn you can move around one token out of three. So you can get 3 different effect or maybe 1 strong and 1 weak one in your chosen categories. Would make the quantum aspect much more visible.

#

Perhaps remote effect would be just 1 token, but Cory said earlier today that it's un-fun if the CK effects (outside talents) are different when the CK is not present vs is participating in the mission.

split torrent
marsh ermine
#

Turning Quantum Assault into a kind of offensive ability could be a lot of fun.

shut crater
split torrent
shut crater
#

So the interaction would be ONLY between QR tokens and the mission planning

mystic rivet
mystic rivet
split torrent
mystic rivet
split torrent
#

Been trying to think of other ways to use that Quantum Precognition motif in intersting ways that is not just playing into the buff/debuff logic again, or at least buffing something different (like attack range, something I don't see get modified outside weapons themselves). I also hope those updated to 'team and self' language may help some confusion. It was never immediately obvious you could Center yourself, for instance, and that's a tasty combat benefit.

CK has a Stun, has Initiative control (nearly as good as a stun in many use cases ), has Action Point proliferation (tactical Surge is insanely good)...

Sec Manipulation as you and Varis have pointed out is really the only other place I can go past 'do big attack thing', which the CK has a lot of freedom for in teh various buffs now (that are, noteworthily, not weapon type specific... they're good with just about ANYTHING you enjoy)

Is there an interesting channel of abilities or 'zone of control' maybe that is needed that is currently not exploited? For instnace, Does Quantum Lookahead just need some better opportunistic features along with its intel and initiative functions (which are hella strong) instead of just making a new 'thing dies faster' power?

split torrent
#

ah, I think I know what's been nagging at me.

CK could use a Reaction shot/action ala Overwatch.

  • Overwatch is currently only on Soldier & Sniper (Gunslinger as of edit?)
  • it fits the whole 'predictive' tone of CK's quantum functions
  • can do different things than existing overwatch (maybe not an attack for damage? just an interrupt that applies a status effect?)
  • operational functions for Overwatch like abilities already exists, minimal code implementation (not creating all new stuff)
  • ability still feels in line with commander functions (control battlefield) and better 'badass unit' utility
merry bear
split torrent
#

might be too much of a good thing then.

#

but it does fit the CK motif.

#

If a CK version was desirable, I would not code it as a LOS cone, but applying a reaction to a zone marked ala Lookahead. Control applied to a puddle of space. That might be too strong though, if nicely defining.

mystic rivet
#

Yes, there is an overwatch talent for Gunslinger as well - starting right skill

split torrent
# mystic rivet Yes, there is an overwatch talent for Gunslinger as well - starting right skill

Ok, so it fits, but is markedly less distinct than I thought due to gaps in my knowledge. Not sure that's BAD, and I believe a 'puddle' of control react would be meaningfully impactful and different (I quite like the idea of 'if someone breaches this zone, interrupt them ending their turn, no damage applied, no LOS required') but it's not as defining without being a significantly different construct.

fickle wing
#
  • Passive talent that allows more implants - emphasizing the "Cyber" part. Especially as the CK is already down one implant from the Quantum Rider.

EDIT: To specify further, increasing the Implant limit by, say, +1/+1/+1/+1. Some possible extra effects from other points, like +10%/+10% bonus from Implants.

This will help to make your CK special by having implants up to the gills. Not sure if it meshes with your lore, though.

merry bear
fickle wing
merry bear
#

I don't think there is any such limit?

fickle wing
#

Hence my talent suggestion.

#

Say +1/+1/+1/bonuses increased by 10%

#

Also seen here:

image.png
marsh ermine
#

So I'm thinking about the "Quantum" of the Quantum Rider. The idea of Quantum mechanics is that a thing can be simultaneously multiple things until direct observation collapses it into a single wavelength. For example, whether light is a particle or Wave is dependent on how it is observed.

So maybe some Cyber Knight abilities could explore the idea of "Quantum States." Maybe, for example, you could have an ability that allows you to Quantum-superimpose yourself on an ally's position, making it so that you Were always there, not your ally. Effectively swapping places. With upgrades, you could do this to enemies as well.

Another might be "Quantum Assault" instead of being a debuff to drones, being a low damage "Attack" that counts as every damage type simultaneously, implying that it "collapses" into whatever damage type can bypass an enemy's resistance. It starts with relatively low damage, but upgrades can increase it or reduce its cooldown.

#

You could also have some fun with the Diagesis of things like save files and retried missions all being "Possibilities" calculated by your CK's Rider.

#

A reset mission is just your CK looking over his quantum rider, not liking the outcome, and making so that this particular mission didn't happen that way.

#

There's this game called Lancer which has a faction, "HORUS" who are hackers who have figured out quantum computing AI which allows them to develop "Paracausal" technology based on advanced quantum mechanics. There's a lot of good inspiration there.

split torrent
# marsh ermine So I'm thinking about the "Quantum" of the Quantum Rider. The idea of Quantum me...

I love the theme take here but for me that starts to get into 'actual magic' levels of tech on the place swap. making a sensor ghost though ala decoy would fit same kind of idea (a ghost representation in the system) but doesn't get that 'directness' that you and others were seeking I'd think. Still a bit C n C versus 'in the trench' uses.

Same with the take on Quantum Assault. To my mind, keeping in mind that it's the power of quantum -computing-, not Star Trek Heisenberg Compensator TechnoMagick, I think is important. There is a tech level tone in the game for overall superpower limits I want to respect.

Most of the stuff I see in the tree currently I can get to a place of 'you used their tech against them' or 'probability calculations' or 'drawing on data from the Q-sec AI in Real Time' kind of interpretations. Stun, for instance, is all about Ghost in the Shell real time hacking their implants to my way of thinking.

I think those are great abilities, but I think the rationale may be pulling the wrong way? Quantum Assaulte being a systems feedback attack to do what you propose though as an alteration? Honestly, it's what the name suggested originally. Bombard target with quantum data firepower and overload their system so 'hijinks ensue'. :)

marsh ermine
#

Something akin to a Cyberpunk 2077 "Quickhack" would be kinda fun.

split torrent
marsh ermine
#

Overloading and overheating bionic machinery, causing bionics to short circuit and fry your targets from the inside out.

split torrent
marsh ermine
#

Like, keep the support and prediction branch and the tank branch, but maybe have one branch be your "Hack-Wizard" that uses quantumn computing to destroy your enemies from the inside out.

split torrent
#

That way it would still be weapon choice independent, useful to the CK and his team.

split torrent
marsh ermine
#

Ehhh, I like the idea of it being something a bit more "Kill them with your brain" if that makes sense.

#

not directly magic, but like, slicing into someone's eye bionics or turning their wetware into a fireworks show.

split torrent
#

I think we're on same page here mate, just negotiating degree of intensity/directness. Both work, both I think are sound approaches.

marsh ermine
#

Your vibe from what I can tell feels a bit more "I CAST GUN!"

#

Which we alread have a lot of, tbh.

mystic rivet
#

I had similar idea - single target pure damage attack or damage-over-time to simulate attack from the inside

split torrent
#

True on the second point. But going full tilt magic missile automatic damage I think skirts some of the norms otehrwise established outside AoE effects.

#

Not remotely saying I'm right, was just trying to draw from teh existing structures. Most of the other 'damage powers' seem to piggy back on modes of existing attack, either melee or ranged, or have additional conditions.

#

to be clear, I like hte direct attack option. Actually, direct attack with lingering vulnerability sounds about spot on to me.

#

then it's direct threat AND still feeds the team can capitalize flavour. Kind of like a more flexible Bio-Coat or N-coat bullet

#

gunshot not required.

marsh ermine
#

Exactly.

mystic rivet
#

yes, iFry option

marsh ermine
#

And that would better facilitate multiclassing, too.

split torrent
#

I don't think it should be especialy dangerous on it's own (i.e. it's not Take 1000 damage puny mortal). But even if it did a 20-50 pt hit, and made the target more vulnerable, relatively cheap AP cost upgraded? I've lost track of how many times I'd have loved just a smidge of damage.

marsh ermine
#

Maybe a passive can increase its damage for every installed bionic? That could create an interesting incentive for both multiclassing and chroming out.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

probably CK, enemy can't multiclass?

split torrent
#

Hmm... something that is more effective the more 'borged you are? That's certainly interesting.

marsh ermine
#

Yeah. ^^^

#

It might be the software uses the ware of your other bionics to "Co-process"

#

If the rider is linked directly to your nervous system, likewise so is every bionic.

#

So it makes sense that it might be ale to use those bionics to enhance its own abilities, just as it enhances theirs.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

it would be a novel effect and unique in game terms too

marsh ermine
#

Exactly.

split torrent
#

and reward multiclassing as well as opportunistic cyberware. And it's not inheretnly 'not useful' if you are not borged to teh gills either, as we've outlined. That seems liek a good candidate ability across the discussion.

#

not our call of course, but we all three seem to think the combo checks a bunch of hte right boxes

marsh ermine
#

Agreed.

mystic rivet
# marsh ermine So it makes sense that it might be ale to use those bionics to enhance its own a...

I have thought about it previously - implant interaction is completely missing, but in theory it may be nice. Or may be too much work to include it for all implants where you get bonuses or debuffs depending on how implants interact. May be it's best to just have scaling bonus to this one particular skill in CK tree, than to go all the way with "Matsumoto makes best implants for this, but then they would not agree with your other implant here".

mystic rivet
#

Going back to CK skills, would be nice to get some sort of interrupt/disable skill. Although from the way combat works in CK, the value of "classical" interrupt is lower - everything happens quickly and in their turn. An obvious mechanic to use would be an AOE stun, but there is a stun in CK tree already, and AOE stun would be very powerful. May be something like one of anti-drone skills that CK have, but applying to humans: -x AP, -x movement points, -x accuracy, AOE effect? Although this may not be "direct" enough and lean into the buffing/debuffing niche that CK already has a lot of stuff in.

shut crater
#

Soldier tree I recall had that one talent which gives massive upgrade to damage and armor shredding (unless I'm mixing 2 talents I was not really planning on). That could be switched with Centering - tactical team buffing seems to fit well with Soldier too.

mystic rivet
#

Or Centering can replace Downer in the left tree, making that tree full "Team Buffs/Benefits". Either way works.

marsh ermine
#

Having bionics that provide class-agnostic active abilities could be neat, with different "marks" or "Updates" increasing the ability's efficacy.

mystic rivet
#

I think more would be coming with Warmachine as that's a borg-centric class with weapon implants.

shut crater
#

Steamroll and Downer looked nice, I wanted those for my CK 😃 Add good combos with combat classes

mystic rivet
maiden orchid
merry bear
merry bear
mystic rivet
# merry bear CK already has 2 Overwatch interrupt talents

not the Overwatch interrupt. More of a "you want to throw grenade? denied. You trying to heal? Nope". i.e. when you are interrupting enemy actions but without the cone and shooting. Although I suppose not much use in current meta - easier to just stun most difficult target than play action denial.

merry bear
#

ah, that was not obvious from your post

mystic rivet
# merry bear ah, that was not obvious from your post

Trying to come up with funky control/commander skills, which are not buffs. It really boils down to either buff your side (which we have covered) or hinder the opposing side, so roots(can't move)/snares(-move speed or minus MP)/stuns/AOE debuffs. Having a single target damage skill would be nice on CK to account for obvious implant hacking and so frying guards from the inside (although this may fit Jacknife more).

shut crater
#

Or be more natural against drones

#

I'm still waiting for the highly cyborged killer enemies (do HHs count?)

split torrent
#

I was also thinking of an interrupt 'zone' (in my earlier comments I mean, to @mystic rivet and @merry bear ), which we don't really have currently I think? We have stun mines, poison clouds, barriers, but not a 'zone of control' where it's just a 'turn over', no other major side effects. Overwatch, without the fire fight. Use case wise I'd think the closest match might be the vanguard's Reflective barrier, which allows you to safely move through a space in ways no other powers do save Smoke Screen (which is about ot have other impacts). The ability to just force a 'stall out' to the enemies turn without LOS would be incredibly powerful for battlefield management. Possibly too powerful, to be fair.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

I don't have all the +HP implants but my CK sits at 365 hp. Can probably get to 400, may be 450ish. The mission to rescue the Scourge had 900 HP character lol

mystic rivet
shut crater
#

(Real time multiplayer games are very different in that respect)

mystic rivet
#

Agree, I think player is OP currently relative to opposition. I hope that the drones will even it out + we will get some juicy mill-spec teams with implants and funky things as opposition.

shut crater
#

I've noticed Brave Star has mostly upgraded from their SWAT people

shut crater
mystic rivet
#

chicken legs are always fun 🤣

shut crater
#

I've seen them time and again and fortunately never had to fight one

merry bear
# shut crater

looks like Truck Job? I did warn you about those drones

marsh ermine
#

I keep forgetting how cool the new drones look.

marsh ermine
#

"Robot With Pants" is such a good look.

limpid parcel
#

The thing with the Cyber Knight, like I said, the tree just isn't large enough to cover all options. Its a leader role that you only get one of, that should be capable of being paired with most other classes and work fine.

merry bear
#

@bleak pine I think your statistics are wrong because only one other person so far ha agreed with you.

bleak pine
#

I should probably check the lore but if cyber knight is supposed to be an actual buff class for yourself and others, design-wise you could probably just make the entire class a buff on already existing abilities either stat wise or new effects. Woulf be much easier to add it, could even allow other classes some small amount of access to it through some elite abilities mechanic.

limpid parcel
#

Comparing the Cyber Knight to your character on WoW isn't quite the same. Baldur's Gate, it gets closer. CKF isn't a CRPG, but since it's got the RPG elements, the comparison can work, to an extent.

#

Statistically, you're right... a lot of people don't play Healer or whatever on WoW, or any MMO for that matter.

#

But I really really doubt it's single digit.

merry bear
#

um, yeah, if a dozen people say you are wrong and 1 person says you are right, I don't think you can say that single-digit percentages think you are wrong

bleak pine
merry bear
#

but statistics is not what we should really be talking about

limpid parcel
#

Its moreso the perception of the main character.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

In CKF, you've probably noticed, especially with Ahab and I believe Varis as well to an extent, not everyone really views the Cyber Knight as the Main Character, necessarily.

shut crater
#

The assumption of a strong main character is off I think but if you have a lingering feeling the Knight is off as a buffer then dunno how exactly one can refute that feeling

merry bear
bleak pine
shut crater
#

Besides asking to give it more time and come back later when you've seen more of the context

limpid parcel
merry bear
#

could you explain the idea in a bit more detail?

limpid parcel
#

Yeah I'm not too sure what you mean by that either.

bleak pine
#

let me look up the lore for cyber knight to make sure my idea works

merry bear
#

we have a limited amount of lore; the devs have a lot more, going back to their pen and paper games 20 and 30 years ago

bleak pine
#

Ok I think it could work. What if cyberknight was literally just an elite version of EVERY class. Have a separate buffer class. which honestly should happen anyways since making buffer unique would be very restrictive.

So literally every ability has an elite upgrade. could be a purely stat upgrade or offers extra mechanics onto the ability. Other classes, somehow, can gain minimal access to these elite ability upgrades (maybe after a certain level or completing their storyline?)

Example: Flush in Gunslinger

Normal: Any enemy targeted (hit or miss) by this attack is debuffed with -10% Kinetic Armor, -10% Ballistic Armor and -25% Cover Bonus for remainder of the Turn.

Elite: Any enemy targeted (hit or miss) by this attack is debuffed with -20% Kinetic Armor, -20% Ballistic Armor and -50% Cover Bonus for remainder of the Turn.

split torrent
limpid parcel
#

That'd only really work if we had every class implemented right now. And personally even if we had that... I'm not sure about that.
That would leave the CK with a number of talents they'd have... No real use for. Most of the Cybersword talents are rendered useless if you want to use a rifle and pistol or something.
Currently, their buffs are able to affect themselves and anyone else regardless of their weapon choice.

merry bear
bleak pine
#

Cyber knight lore: "During the Quiet War, as the quantum technologies arms race soared, their abilities were enhanced to levels far beyond what was originally intended. "

This does sound like elite abilities

limpid parcel
#

Their cognitive abilities I'm pretty sure.

merry bear
limpid parcel
#

I don't know. The CK Computer is just a computer slapped in their spine.

#

That gives them a bunch of tactical data and communication stuff.

split torrent
bleak pine
#

Original lore: "Their preternatural coordination and signals processing gives them talents to buff their squad, manipulate the initiative order, predict enemy movements, disrupt drones, and generally serve as a force-multiplier for their squad."

My change: Their preternatural coordination and signals processing gives them advanced talents beyond normal human capabilities.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

Thing is, the other classes already do that.

merry bear
#

recall that originally their initial purpose was carrying quantum encrypted communications. those are "their abilities" that were enhanced

limpid parcel
#

Gunslinger's whole thing is using a computer to push their capabilities of using pistols and revolvers' beyond human capabilities.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

Do they not have a buff that messes with accuracy right now?

#

I haven't looked at every talent

uneven rain
#

That's what I'm thinking

limpid parcel
#

Because that just sounds like you'd want a talent that buffs accuracy.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

And if it buffs accuracy... well, that's part of the support playstyle. And they can buff themselves, mind you, so they don't even really need to be 100% support.

uneven rain
#

Yes but CKs are still human... ish

merry bear
bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

They're both in the spine.

uneven rain
#

When you start hitting Max Mercer levels it's debatable, but the CK is still very much human, so to give it too much power would negate having the point of a team at all.

limpid parcel
#

And they both augment something

merry bear
limpid parcel
#

Beyond human capabilities.

bleak pine
sterile cave
uneven rain
#

Exactly

sterile cave
#

If his brain was in a cyborg i frankly wouldn't be able to tell the difference

uneven rain
#

Max is what happens when the toaster achieves sentience with a side of HK-47 in him

merry bear
#

the Quantum Rider is designed to interface with quantum computer systems. they used that as secure couriers, then the abilities were enhanced to become weapons against rebellious AI

limpid parcel
#

Quantum Computer: Enhances tactical, communications, and encryptions beyond human capabilities.
Gunslinger thing: Enhances reflexes, probably hand-eye coordination, etc beyond human capabilities.
Matrix augment thing (hacker): Enhances capabilities in the computer beyond human capabilities.

#

I don't know all the technical words to use for the Matrix one but you'll get my point probably

#

I'm very good with words

bleak pine
#

It sounds like cyber knight is mostly an advanced hacker

sterile cave
#

Lemme put it this way

limpid parcel
#

They all enhance something of themselves, beyond human capabilities. Cyber Knight isn't enhancing everything beyond human capabilities though

merry bear
#

no, not hacker at all, though some versions do have hacker abilities added

limpid parcel
#

Cyber Knight and Hacker do have some overlap.

sterile cave
#

The knight is a walking talking shooting electronic warfare machine in the shape and fragility of a humanoid

merry bear
#

their abilities are mostly related to the ability to interface with their team, and to interfere with other people and drones

limpid parcel
#

But the Knight isn't connected to the Matrix... and lo and behold, as I said earlier, it gives them an in if you want your Knight to be a hacker.

#

The Knight is very generalist. They can work with any job.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

CKs are supercomputers you can shove illegal mods in and make stupid crazy stuff happen. Hackers are more of the traditional hack the mainframe and hack the enemy

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

They are.

#

But if you make them OP, which is sounds like this is tending towards, you negate the point of having a team at all

#

Think of Wasteland (the game). If one character could do everything, what would be the point of having a team who are effectively worse versions of you?

#

You need to have them compliment each other, not overwhelm each other.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

There is though

#

That's why you replay as different classes.

limpid parcel
#

The only real solution I think there is to this, would be to have the Knight be like they are in the first game...
There was no Knight class. You were just whatever job you picked, but you had the implant. But I like having the Knight as a class, and that the Knight is still unique in some regard.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

So it's not even a great solution

uneven rain
split torrent
sterile cave
bleak pine
sterile cave
#

Wait

split torrent
#

Hold the phone a sec guys - Majority seem to agree CK is currently Commander or Commander+/Buff centric and turn management centric.

sterile cave
#

Hoooold up

split torrent
#

(waits)

limpid parcel
#

Waiting.

uneven rain
#

holds up chicken pot pie dinner

sterile cave
#

@bleak pine Do you have a sim trainer ?

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

hurry up I'm hungry.

split torrent
sterile cave
#

Or just the one INITIAL respec ?

limpid parcel
#

Eh, the first game was more like Star Traders with a different combat system.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

Like uh... Closest example I can think of off the top of my head is like Fire Emblem. Its not really, but you can kinda get the gist. Tile based, tactics that kinda thing. But the overworld was like Star Traders more.

sterile cave
#

Then you can respec out of the multi class at any point to drop back point into either class that is not implant forced

bleak pine
bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

Not enjoyable?

sterile cave
#

That's kinda the intent of the sim trainer...

#

Change your loadout for the the next mission

#

Both equipment and abilities

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

But that would be making an OP character

bleak pine
# limpid parcel Not enjoyable?

This argument is essentially just a variation of the prior one. The argument being: if you don't want to have your main class be a buffer then just multiclass. I have the same response of you losing out on unique and strong buffs.

uneven rain
#

Which is fun for about 20mins only to realize your team becomes dead weight and 'slow down' the game

#

It's designed to be a game where your CK leads a team, not is the team. If that fails, the whole premise fails.

limpid parcel
#

Losing out on the buffs... if you're going to use the buffs regardless, I don't know if I see the problem?

uneven rain
limpid parcel
#

Unless I'm misunderstanding.

uneven rain
#

It's a gameplay decision.

#

Difficulty would go out the window.

#

The team would be useless

#

You'd be Superman fighting thugs the level of Joker with Teen Titans slowing you down

#

It wouldn't be fun

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

Which kinda brings us back to where we are now.

sterile cave
#

And still be VASTLY more overpowered then your team.

split torrent
uneven rain
#

XD

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

I still don't really see the issue with it.
You don't want character A to buff people, you want character C to buff people...?

uneven rain
limpid parcel
#

But you're bringing both character A and character C regardless.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

So why does it matter then whether character A does it or character C?

uneven rain
#

Which would still fall into the OP territory

#

Again, Superman dragging the Teen Titans around

bleak pine
sterile cave
bleak pine
uneven rain
#

(I'm sorry Raven, I'm throwing so much shade at y'all x.x)

sterile cave
#

If the knight can literally take basically anything from other classes then yes. Given enough time they'd be super broken

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

I think where you're getting caught up is that you think the CK is the 'hero' with a supporting cast.

#

The CK isn't the 'hero', he's part of a cast

split torrent
uneven rain
#

That was the word, thank you

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

:p

split torrent
limpid parcel
#

I self insert myself into the soldier who believes the machines are gods.

uneven rain
bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

I want Max Mercer to voice a Tech Priest.

uneven rain
split torrent
# bleak pine because most people put themselves in the main character and don't want to be a ...

Or people want to be the commander of an elite team and feel like the commander of an elite team in a squad command game. That line of logic cuts both ways immediately mate. I get where you are coming from but I think there is a clear baseline to honour here too in terms of world presentation and limits on the system and genre of play style.

And all this preference push ignores the target of what specific abilities, working within the systems alreadyd here, would make the CK feel a bit more directly badass/impactful versus 'meh buffer', no?

limpid parcel
uneven rain
#

It's a Heist game, everyone brings something different to the table.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

'

split torrent
uneven rain
#

He isn't

limpid parcel
#

And again, I want to say that the Cyber Knight again is not actually restricted to being 100% support character.

uneven rain
#

Protagonist but one of many

#

It's an ensamble cast

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

You can buff yourself and then shoot/stab someone... which isn't any different from a soldier buffing themselves right before they shoot someone.

uneven rain
#

Have you played any of the newer XCOMs?

#

The Enemy Within, or XCOM 2?

bleak pine
bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

My point is you can in fact still use the very same skills.

#

On yourself.

#

Except maybe initiative manipulation talents.

#

For... obvious reasons... you're already moving

sterile cave
#

Precomputed only

uneven rain
#

You control a squad with different abilities. You may grow attached to a character for being slightly better in stats or luck or half a thousand things, but they are part of a squad. No character stands on their own. They're also not actually the main character but that's a different story.

sterile cave
#

Because otherwise it's absolutely cracked

limpid parcel
#

I asked a few days ago if the Knight's buffs affected themselves, and I was told yes...

sterile cave
#

Precomputed and tact surge. And a couple others

limpid parcel
#

I haven't really tried, admittedly

sterile cave
#

But the big ticket ones no.

#

Too busted

uneven rain
#

Ugh this pot pie tastes like I'm eating butter

limpid parcel
#

Like I said, I'm actually on the side of supportive main character, but I'm trying to avoid as much "Well I like this so..." as I can

uneven rain
#

💀

merry bear
bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

I mean... let's be honest... if the Commander was a class on XCOM... they'd probably be like the Knight

uneven rain
#

Pretty much

uneven rain
#

The CK being the squaddie

limpid parcel
#

I should actually play XCOM. I played a couple XCOM-like games, and I played technically one mission of... Enemy Unknown I think?

uneven rain
#

The idea you're sharing is making the CK the main character instead of a cog in the machine

#

I'm trying to think of good examples.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

I think I said it best earlier when your idea sounded like having a hero with supporting cast, but while you're in the perspective of a protagonist doesn't necessarily mean you're the most powerful person in the team.

#

Ok ok

#

The Avengers.

sterile cave
#

That is literally the best analogy

#

The knight is Tony Stark basically

uneven rain
#

Your character may be Captain America and a badass in his own way, but it wouldn't be the same team if you didn't have an equally powerful cast

merry bear
uneven rain
#

If Captain America was the only person of consequence, there wouldn't be the Avengers.

#

Because if Captain America is the strongest, what's the point of the Hulk? If he's the most tech savy, what's the point of Iron Man? If he's a literal god, why bother having Thor?

#

They're part of a whole.

merry bear
#

I understand that you are dissatisfied with it, @bleak pine, but I would rather you didn't imply that a majority agree with you.

uneven rain
#

Just because the camera spends most of it's time on Captain America, it doesn't make him the only person of consequence

#

And that's why there are many moments where the others shine, to remind watchers that they are a TEAM, not just Captain America's sidekicks.

merry bear
#

I do not object to you making proposals that will make it feel better for you. you may indeed come up with something that would be useful.

uneven rain
#

(lol Captain America and Friends sounds hilarious though)

sterile cave
limpid parcel
#

Do 50%+ prefer their main character to be a super soldier? Probably.
How many of those players mind if their main character isn't? Decent question.
Do 50%+ of players self insert into the main character? I actually am not sure. I'd say its probably pretty evenly split.
Do 50%+ of CKF players believe the Cyber Knight to be the main character... Questionable. I don't know. Clearly there's people that do, but there's also people that don't...

#

But my problem originally wasn't about the majority, was still mostly about you saying that the amount of people who would be fine with the main character being supportive being single digit.

#

I still do not believe that at all.

uneven rain
#

And MOST IMPORTANTLY, that's simply not how the creators intended the game to be played. There's always mods though

bleak pine
# uneven rain Because if Captain America is the strongest, what's the point of the Hulk? If he...

I actually do have an answer to that. The main character decides the strong area of your party. Lets say you want to be well rounded but want one specialty area. the main character IS that specialty area. Instead of a sniper, you take a cyber knight sniper to round out your team. Or if its an open map you take a ton of snipers including your cyber knight sniper. The elite abilities would serve either as a replacement for the less advanced character or an addition to it. Right now there is no replacement for the cyber knights class because its unique. At least with my idea you could replace your cyber knight temporarily if necessary (wounded, in detox, etc.)

uneven rain
#

That last bit would negate the risk of having your CK on the front lines

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

In RPGs yes, but CK isn't a traditional RPG. It's in an RPG SUBcategory, which is still different.

limpid parcel
#

I mentioned this earlier sorta, but people compare CKF to CRPG's like Rogue Trader and Baldur's Gate.
Which I don't agree with.

uneven rain
#

I mean Skyrim is an RPG, but CK is a very different kind of game

split torrent
#

(it's not any better or worse than SHIELD or SWORD :) )

uneven rain
#

Point taken. Sword and Shield acronyms are terrible.

split torrent
#

(I am NOT proud of that joke :) )

sterile cave
bleak pine
uneven rain
sterile cave
#

Oh. And the for all intents. Within optimal range. Can't miss.

bleak pine
shut crater
#

The init manipulation is a core concept of the whole game and removing it from your "main character" could be problematic. Also making elite versions of every class would need a very simple implementation to be viable.

bleak pine
shut crater
#

The real problem I think is only the team buff/enemy debuff abilities besides init things... and maybe those only partly

limpid parcel
sterile cave
#

Aka the busted ones

limpid parcel
#

A lot of talents otherwise actually are around debuffing enemies.

#

Or abilities that trigger on you being hit.

#

Which again, debuff enemies.

shut crater
#

Giving an option to replace those with combat abilities could be a thing. I don't think we need a huge fix here but it could open more options for CK?

bleak pine
# shut crater The init manipulation is a core concept of the whole game and removing it from y...

I'm not saying go with my idea. I threw it out there randomly and worked through it while talking to you guys. I still need to read other prior ideas in this thread. I'm just pointing out the very clear barrier that an audience will face when they realize their main character is pretty much forced to be a buffer. Plus its a limitation on design later. What if you guys want to create buffer classes for the game? Then we are back to my original idea of cyber knight just being an elite version of the buffer class but it would be far more narrowly implemented.

limpid parcel
#

But still, a majority of the talents can be used on yourself, and you're still able to use Cyber Knight abilities without being overly supportive.

uneven rain
#

Yeah but then it'd be an entirely different game.

#

That's really the heart of the problem.

#

It wouldn't be the same game.

bleak pine
shut crater
bleak pine
#

although if you guys have behind the scenes lore i dont know about then maybe not

limpid parcel
#

Nothing concrete.
Most of my knowledge is from the first game about Corporations that got renamed.

#

RIP in Peace AzTek.

uneven rain
limpid parcel
#

Anyway, like I said I'm looking at the class a bit right now, to see what could be changed while still keeping it... generalist.

split torrent
bleak pine
# shut crater A Tactician class could be nice to take some weight off CK shoulders ❤️

but the problem I just mentioned arises. currently CK is the main character for a variety of reasons but partially because theyre unique. if a tactician class is added, it'd make sense because apparently the CK isn't supposed to be the main character so they can be swapped out when needed but it has the problem I mentioned of CK just being an elite version of tactician class then, hence no real reason not to offer a variety of choices for elite abilities instead

limpid parcel
#

I was wrong... there's no skill that buffs accuracy. There's skills that debuff enemy accuracy...

split torrent
#

some powers are certainly a bit lackluster currently but as i understand the state of things (flawed as that may be) that's more of a draft/iteration issue than wholesale misalignment of hte CK's intended capabilities.

limpid parcel
#

They seem like they'd make a good tank actually though.

#

Debuffing enemy accuracy, increasing their armor, increasing their AP... all without actually buffing a single teammate technically.

uneven rain
limpid parcel
#

Sounds like a good mix with Cybersword to me.

#

I kinda want to try it out now.

uneven rain
#

Bonus points if you face down a grav tank as one

#

The CK is critical but not the main character.

limpid parcel
#

This actually seems to be the main thing.
The Cyber Knight doesn't have very many things that actually increase damage outright.

uneven rain
#

He's not easily replaceable. That's by design. He's important but is also nothing without a team of equally capable mercs

limpid parcel
#

They reduce incoming damage to themselves, and reduce the accuracy of enemies, thus reducing the amount of damage incoming to the team as a whole.

#

They can manipulate turn order, and AP...

uneven rain
#

You're supposed to feel like something's missing, or there's a gap there. Because there is.

bleak pine
#

Will there be story reasons that the CK needs to have these specific abilities?

uneven rain
#

I'd say that makes him important, but not necessarily main. Though perhaps I'm using main wrong.

limpid parcel
#

It's all about perspective of the main character in all honesty in my opinion.

#

I spend far too much time customizing all the initial characters, so to me they're all the main character in some way

uneven rain
#

He's a PoV character imo

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

The first five, at the very least

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

No, it's not.

#

The Great Gatsby. The PoV character is Nick but the main chracter is absolutely Gatsby himself.

#

No one really cares about Nick, we're just watching the carwreck in his eyes.

#

CK is a PoV character but of an ensemble cast.

limpid parcel
#

Anyway.
I want to go back really quick to the actual mechanics of Knight.
Looking at these skills again... do they benefit more from buffing their teammates?
Yeah probably honestly. Is that gonna stop me from using the Knight's other skills and giving her a sword and making her a tank instead? Not at all, if there's anything, my motto is I don't care about the meta.

#

You can still use the Knight's unique abilities in a different way from the overall supportive playstyle.

#

And you can use them to complement basically any class.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

Hey, me too!

limpid parcel
#

Whether you can do it on higher difficulties is up to everyone else to discover. Sparda said you could, I'll take his word for it. Ahab also mentioned he rarely even brings his Knight in the first place.

#

I've been trying to write...

uneven rain
#

I've actually had a few ideas that kinda take the same PoV as Nick in the Great Gatsby, but there's a reason it's rare to see lol

limpid parcel
#

I like to write, and I like reading.

#

But I have absolutely zero confidence in my own abilities.

#

So I get nowhere very quickly

#

But that's beside the point

uneven rain
#

Writing is hard as hell as it is!

sterile cave
limpid parcel
#

Oh no I won't. I'm terrible at this game, I ain't touching Chrome.

sterile cave
#

Who said chrome ?

uneven rain
#

I'm terrible too

limpid parcel
#

I did

uneven rain
#

Zero, are we clones?

limpid parcel
#

Are we?

sterile cave
#

Well i didn't lol

uneven rain
#

👀

limpid parcel
uneven rain
#

🍵🧻

limpid parcel
#

Hm. I was guaging your reaction to the Steel Song flag.

#

I can't determine whether you are truly my clone or not.

uneven rain
#

😉

#

That's the real question

limpid parcel
uneven rain
#

KILL IT WITH FIRE

#

🔥

limpid parcel
#

You are my clone!

uneven rain
#

😮

limpid parcel
#

So I guess I didn't specify Chrome.

uneven rain
#

Do it on low difficulties

limpid parcel
#

I can't even really determine what difficulty I play on, I play custom...

sterile cave
#

Even on easy you can learn something higher diff players can more readily "exploit"

uneven rain
#

Do it for shits and giggles

sterile cave
#

^

uneven rain
#

Do it to see if you can

#

Do it...

#

FOR SCIENCE

limpid parcel
#

I was probably gonna

sterile cave
limpid parcel
#

I usually don't use swords very often.
I've recently taken to blades though

#

Which was probably very notable on STF since I've been playing Zealot a lot

uneven rain
#

reminds me of a meme I just saw...

limpid parcel
#

But I think I play on... Normal...+?

#

All characters can die permanently, but I can save freely (mostly for Hacking missions... I'm uh... not ashamed to admit I somewhat savescum specifically those missions. The rest not intentionally)... some other stuff.

uneven rain
#

Hey, still better than me

#

❤️

marsh ermine
marsh ermine
# uneven rain No, it's not.

That's great and all, but the thing about games like this is the power to tell our own stories. I think what kills the CK For me is it demands we play a very specific kind of protagonist.

#

One that points at an enemy and goes "Abelard, destroy this man's balls immediately."

limpid parcel
#

I wonder if Face is supposed to be a buffer class.

marsh ermine
#

Honestly?

#

I'd be okay with that.

#

Make the face the "Guy In The Van" or something

uneven rain
#

That would be STF

#

CKF is a very different game.

limpid parcel
marsh ermine
#

Like, played to its best potential, the CK is a cheerleader who gets other players to do cool things For them. And that's not fun.

marsh ermine
limpid parcel
#

That's the point

#

Its a different game

#

Their point wasn't to compare the two.

marsh ermine
#

And this feels like a step back compared to that.

limpid parcel
#

It was to say that CKF wouldn't be CKF, it'd be STF.

#

The two games aren't meant to be the same

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

They're making the Face into a class

#

So yes, we're going to be able to bring the Face on missions eventually

uneven rain
#

CKF isn't a sequel of the same type of game, it's its own seperate type of game. It'd be like comparing STF to Heroes of Steel

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

Entirely different games.

limpid parcel
#

Yeah, they've mentioned a few times that they've been working on the talent tree.

#

I don't know how much or how close the Face is to being realized, but its planned

marsh ermine
#

My point is both games are about choice in some form or fashion. In CKF You choose Your approach to a heist. You choose what mercs you bring, their loadouts, their abilities, their implants.

limpid parcel
#

CKF isn't even in the same vein as CK Classic... and this is technically a sequel.

marsh ermine
#

So why can't I choose to be something other than a cheerleader?

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

I just had this argument like an hour ago.

limpid parcel
#

You can choose to be something other than a cheerleader just fine.

#

Your talents work with the other classes well enough, you can buff yourself with the abilities aside from a couple exceptions, and you have talents that take effect on hit and debuff the enemies...

uneven rain
#

It would be unbalanced.

#

The way you're thinking, anyway.

limpid parcel
#

And buffing yourself with your own abilities is not any different from being a Soldier and using self-buffs.

marsh ermine
#

I still fail to see why CK needs to be a distinct class at all.

limpid parcel
#

In all honesty?
Probably 'cause it's cool.

uneven rain
#

And because the CK fills a special role in the team.

bleak pine
#

I just figured out another problem I had with current design decisions. There aren't high stake decisions in a few key areas. Respec is both annoying because you need to waste a building slot but also too easily accessible. But cyber knight really lacks choice as well, aside from multiclassing which I've already mentioned the problem with.

limpid parcel
#

There's probably no definitive answer to that one. Do they need to have the Knight as its own job specifically? Probably not.

uneven rain
#

Well, unique. He has a particular set of skills and needs to be boosted by very capable allies

marsh ermine
#

For some people, playing the team cleric is probably a lot of fun. But I would appreciate there being some level of choice on what kind of cyber-knight I am.

#

Like, just make different "Classes" of CK and let players choose from the get-go.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

Look, I'm starting a game to try out the Cyber Knight that doesn't bother with the team buffs at all. Still using the Cyber Knight tree so its not deadweight which has been your guys' only real argument about it.

marsh ermine
#

"Mastermind" is your base. Then maybe like "Wireghost" is for deep diving hackery and tech manipulation. "Paladin" for combat. Boom.

limpid parcel
#

The only thing that Cyber Knight really lacks is an increase to damage potential I think.

#

And I guess accuracy improvement, which I really thought they had, but it turned out to be debuffing enemy accuracy instead.

marsh ermine
bleak pine
uneven rain
limpid parcel
#

What's the narrative feel of the Knight?
To me they seem like a leader of a band of mercenaries in the underworld. Nothing about them seems to contradict that.

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

It's not meant to be a sandbox.

#

It's a heist.

#

That's why STF and CKF are so different in terms of how the narrative feels

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

Interesting. That was never my impression of the game at all.

marsh ermine
uneven rain
#

Yes but that's not a sandbox

marsh ermine
#

Go in sneaky, go loud, buy favors for special conditions.

#

That

#

That is literally

limpid parcel
#

I think they have a different view on sandbox games.

uneven rain
#

Minecraft is a sandbox.

limpid parcel
#

I also have a different view on Sandbox games.
It has sandbox elements, but I don't consider it to be a true sandbox game.

uneven rain
#

Fable gives you options how to approach combat but who would call Fable a sandbox.

limpid parcel
#

But we're starting to devolve into arguing semantics at this point. I don't think any of us will agree on the other's definition of sandbox here.

uneven rain
#

Hell, STF is a sandbox. But CKF is a heist game with options, and honestly I have no idea how you would make a heist game sandbox as a heist really requires things to happen a specific way

bleak pine
uneven rain
#

They're not, they're just not what you think they are.

limpid parcel
#

Thus my point.

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

There's no revision happening. No one here probably fully agrees on what a sandbox is, or the perception of a main character.

sterile cave
#

Let us try not to talk circles around eachother shall we ?

What i'm gonna say now is this.

limpid parcel
#

So I really want to move away from this particular argument

bleak pine
limpid parcel
#

There's also a definition of roguelike, yet you'll still find thousands of threads arguing the differences.

sterile cave
#

Maybe give the game itself a pause for a bit and when we get to the point of actual proper launch sink your teeth in again and see if your opinion changes or you still stand by it

limpid parcel
#

I'm not going to fall into arguments about genres.

#

So I'm going to say again, no one here is going to fully agree on the definitions, we should not try to argue this particular thing

bleak pine
#

Is the game supposed to offer:
(1) meaningful decisions
(2) flexibility in terms of the decisions you make?

If so to either of those things, the current iteration of CK goes against that. You are required to choose those abilities or you lose access to them entirely. If neither of those things are considered necessary for:
the character that you design
who is the focus of the story
who is required on a lot of missions
who makes the decisions in the game etc.
(who we aren't calling the main character)

then fine that is also a design decision but I think it doesn't mesh well with nearly all other aspects of the current iteration of the game which offer far more freedom and meaningful decisions.

#

Anyways. I have said all I wanted to say and feel like I'm talking in circles now so I'm done with the conversation. It was a nice discussion and I fleshed out my alternative CK idea a lot from it.

limpid parcel
#

The problem there then just lies in that unless you pick every single talent in the Knight's tree you're going to miss out on some of their talents regardless.

#

But yeah we're talkin' in circles. Hopefully nothing I said came off aggressive.

marsh ermine
#

Also, design-wise there's the issue of there being a single buff/support character.

shut crater
#

Many classes in the game have important multirole abilities. How multiclass is used really depends on the player I think (although TB have collected some pretty interesting statistics) but eg. I tend to MC more towards multirole than trying to just find a combo for a single role.

near basin
#

Thoughts on reading this thread:
"I don't want to play a buffer"
--- then don't. Go into the thick of things and multiclass into soldier.

"Only buff class is CK"
--- There are other classes being considered. Juicer is a combat medic idea that would inject buffs into characters. Bring drugs for now: they are buffs.

"I want the CK class replaced with 'elite' talents"
--- That is asking for less gameplay content for zero benefit. Why? How would this ever be a good idea?

"CK isn't customizable enough. I want to customize my main character."
--- Fully agree. There have been other discussions about adding more depth to the starting character without removing the CK class.

mild sorrel
#

Wow, long discussion. At the very start of the game, you can multiclass your CK into any of soldier, cybersword or hacker, and never put any points into CK talents. (hacker, because you can choose that implant in the current character creation screen.) But, IMHO you will miss out on two of the best talents, Tac Surge (which, granted is a team buff) and Atomic Stutter (long range stun).

bleak pine
bleak pine
# near basin Thoughts on reading this thread: "I don't want to play a buffer" --- then don't....

explained already that you miss out on an entirely unique class if you don't spec into it on your primary character so its not actually a meaningful decision since the options aren't relatively equal value.

other buff classes likely will end up having the problem of just being lesser versions of cyber knight, hence a more narrowed version of my idea of CK being an elite version of regular classes.

You would need to explain why it would be less gameplay content and I'm fairly confident you will reply with something I already answered.

ok

limpid parcel
#

Well, if I'm honest, I'm curious about other buffing classes...
CK seems to be based around debuffing enemy accuracy, improving initiative and AP, and a bit of increasing movement speed with rewind...
Also they can do a bit of damage resistance for themselves, as well. Then there's a few talents that some other classes do anyway, like disabling security, or debuffing drones, etc...

#

Would other buffing classes really be a lesser version of Cyber Knight? Buffing damage, buffing damage resistance (aside from yourself under certain conditions), buffing accuracy, etc, none of those are under the Knight right now for example.

#

I do think a talent for increasing accuracy would actually fit Cyber Knight though.

#

Not sure where it would fit in the tree though

bleak pine
# limpid parcel Would other buffing classes really be a lesser version of Cyber Knight? Buffing ...

maybe lesser version might not be the correct phrase. Fulfilling similar roles might be a better way of putting it. Some buffers would of course be lesser versions though unless the creation of CK would permanently close off that design path (which it might).

The problem of multiple buffers, even if different, is what if you don't want multiple buffers on your mission team but like the non CK buffers powers more? You either leave your primary character behind or forced to take both. Hence, fewer decisions you actually get to make.

It's like if I wanted to bring a pistol using character but also had to take a revolver using character because theyre the main character and no one else had access to revolvers. I would not like to be forced into that decision even if I liked revolvers. Especially when no other part of the game is that restrictive.

limpid parcel
#

I'm not really here to debate anything more tonight, I'm about to head to bed.
One thing I'll say, mostly just what I think Fuzzy's mentioning about "less gameplay content", is that I think he means you'd be removing an entire tree's worth of unique skills in favor of already existing skills (but slightly better).

bleak pine
# limpid parcel I'm not really here to debate anything more tonight, I'm about to head to bed. O...

That means you have a nearly ready made buffer class to add to the game. Part of the problem is you're essentially always forced to take that class on missions if you want to use your main character, which players may want to use more situationally. Sure you can respec but I'd be very surprised if respec isn't revised before full launch because its both too easy to access and too inconvenient to build the building for.

mystic rivet
#

My boss actually got all the skills that we are thinking of as buffing. He says "management wants this done now" - this works as a Tactical Surge lol. More work done by the team per unit time. There is also "Discipline, bitches" to get a Synch on and a Rewind in form of "babe, one more time". Current CK "buffing" talents wrapped in different language would not be out of place on any middle manager. Which is fine in my opinion, because humans are just monkeys and you need skills to manage them. The right side tree with survivability buffs is good too, making CK best tank in the game. I suppose the real issue is that the CK with supercomputer in spine has middle tree with mostly passive which is more of support (even though you can't beat left tree skills in terms of support). Your points are really better spend on the left side or on the right side, middle is almost an afterthought. Extra 10% move speed and some damage boost on kill every 3 turns is not "Wow" nor does it really make a lot of difference compared to say "Coordinated Charge" (which you switch on demand so its by default is better).

#

Several ways/narratives to spice up the current CK design: 1. We already select addition to Quantum Rider at the start during character creation. Being able to slot extra stuff in (which is currently best in the game compared to other traits due to both how much you are getting and also a chance to increase this bonus further during hype breaks) would allow customisation as you would have slots and so would be able to add to either firepower/survivability/etc. Potentially can bring in extra story arcs as it would be rare stuff, so you would need to trade favours/work for corpos/steal, bribe etc. May be some of these QR upgrades bring in extra skills as well similar to what the items do now.

#
  1. We can change passive skills in the middle CK tree to actives that give class more "Omph" and "Wow". Tricky as there is limited space available in the tree so can probably fit 4-6 skills in? Ideas are either single target damage skills (implant hacking from the inside) or more area of effect crowd/battlefield control. Drusus also suggested a neat skill - where two guards or friendlies are "coupled" for x turns and share the damage/effects received. In theory a skills similar to Vanguards K-protocol can be added that would reduce X tally to account for CK deceiving enemy AI. Concussion grenade is already in game as well, so AOE stun centered on CK with a long cooldown is always an option. My idea was a skill to disrupt AI communications with guards to give some debuffs and give them random alert statuses, a bit of an EMP bomb, but not sure if this is feasible as we use same tech so will affect CK team as well.
#
  1. There is an overlap between CK and Hacker, and this is the tilt I was getting from the fluff that was in game - if CK is an evolved rogue AI killer then he must be spicy in the Matrix/hacking/etc. With starting bonuses CK would probably be the best Hacker you can have, so can always fluff it that way. Potential option may be giving CK something that no other Hacker can do - not sure what can it be to not make CK very OP. Remote Matrix access? Easier AI bullying?
mystic rivet
#
  1. Another way to account for "quantum magic" was suggested by Varis, which would a dynamic system that would use token/leverage mechanic where a set number of tokens for quantum effects was generated and you select some effects from a list every turn or every mission (and presumably which effects are available change depending on how/what upgrades you did for Quantum Rider). Big plus is the dynamism of the system and being able to use the coding for the leverage mechanic.
#
  1. Just an idea as well - make it so that number of talents for CK is a bit higher than for the rest of characters. May be can have +2 Talents to the cap used for all other characters? Or may be make it a scalable ability, +1/+2/+3 extra Talents to account for "quantum magic" and multi-tasking? With level cap being higher it may be a way to power up CK a bit more compared to other mercs (and allow more build options). Currently multi classed CK is probably more restricted by talent limit - if you go Hacker and have 9 talents total, 5 minimum Hacker talents would leave you with 4 talents to do anything else. Going through the tree you can't ignore talents so "just multiclass" option currently is limited by that.
mystic rivet
#
  1. In my understanding CK is not able to change matter directly, just by doing fancy stuff with Quantum Rider. So no direct matter manipulation a-la Nanotechnician or other classes in Anarchy Online, where world was full of nanites and you can manipulate everything directly if you learn certain skills. If we don't have that restriction then a lot of things are possible, but I am not sure how this fits the world @glacial nebula .
maiden orchid
#

Lots of talk here in the night! Lemme just put my 0.02 € in: I get where @TheGuiseppe is coming from, and I mildly agree that having free class choice for the main character would be better than needing to keep one multiclass slot for CK. I'm also sceptical about the numbers though - I'd be interested in links, but basically I think RPG is a very broad genre to generalize from, and there are several big pitfalls to look for when comparing things:

#
  1. was the data collected over RPGs of every genre? Might audiences with preferences for Traditional Fantasy make different choices than audiences with preferences for Cyberpunk?
#
  1. 1st person single player vs ARPG vs squad based vs ...
#
  1. mainstream vs indie audiences
#

More practically, it'd be a lot of effort to implement at this stage - and I don't think just doubling every bonus would work

#

it would mean a lot of balancing

#

would be a cool mod though

shut crater
#

One just realizes there are few damage dealing abilities, the whole game is about stacking buffs/debuffs. CK is the hero by having the almost monopoly of init buffs.

sterile cave
shut crater
#

And anybody with a rifle is a heavy hitter

sterile cave
#

That is NOT a lot of attention even if the numbers add up to 10-20 million people

#

By contrast look at the fantasy genre in general. And i rest my case

shut crater
#

Terminator + a small handful of other movies

sterile cave
#

Last good terminator movie was when again ?

#

Thus my point stands

shut crater
#

I guess cyberpunk is much less an escapist genre than say space opera. Which is way more popular.

near basin
#

Some of this discussion reminds me of my complaint about a year ago behind the lore for Sec Tally and the weak lore about the Cyberknight and why they're special.

[ Still about CK lore, but otherwise off topic]
A lot of these heists seem doable without a CK. There's a bit of lore about the CK running interference with the Sec AI, but that feels like a stretch to me. That seems to imply that without CK, the place would be swarming before you arrive. But the lore also suggests that the disturbance created by the CK quantum calculator is the reason the Sec AI knows something is subtly off.

#

Huh, back then, I was basically making similar arguments to @bleak pine . The quantum rider in the CK should be useful for other purposes. If it's a freakin' quantum calculation device that can know where someone will walk before they do (anticipate), then that should allow some other effects too. If the calculations are about the macro-scale, then predicting a head turn for accuracy boost doesn't make sense. But I don't know what would fit the cyberpunk lore.

#

The part that doesn't fit lore is a calculator for quantum encryption being able to hurt someone. It runs a simulation and suddenly Frank the Guard has his insides scrambled...? That makes no sense. The game was planned as hard-ish-sci-fi. I think it's meddling with soft-sci-fi where the excuse "it's very advanced" is used and the game can borrow elements from fantasy. The developers would need to weigh in, but my memory is that this was not their plan. I think things have drifted that way, which justifies the current requests of "just make the quantum rider damage people from across the room."

#

I think games are more satisfying for having self-consistent lore. But at the end of the day, it's the developer's choice. I think they're aiming for Trese-brand fun, and I think they are successfully developing that.

mystic rivet
# near basin I think games are more satisfying for having self-consistent lore. But at the en...

Very much my thoughts as well. If quantum rider is just telling you what is the most probable outcome - its one deal. If its somehow hiding the base that we build from enemy recon by quantum interference its another thing (and this is where a bit of ewar centric ideas come from). If the "rogue AI kill" was just CK reaching jack in point and using quantum effect to inject a virus which is in cold storage somewhere else then it a different set of capabilities and skills.

mystic rivet
mild sorrel
#

afaik the CK is assumed to be always lurking nearby the mission to do the quantum magic. I am not sure how the lore handles that when the CK is unavailable for missions due to medical treatment.

near basin
#

Agree with you.

Another lore question: if CK is very rare, and CK allows this type of flaunting the "law," then how do the other gangs and contacts survive?

shut crater
#

Barely

near basin
# mild sorrel afaik the CK is assumed to be always lurking nearby the mission to do the quantu...

I think that's part of Jelly and Giuseppe's point: if it's quantum magic, then why can't it be more potent.

My original interpretation of Sec AI manipulation would be that the Sec AI knows the background buzz of the city. The CK can think like the Sec AI, so CK can guess what the Sec AI will treat as nonconcerning, then tell the team what behaviors would allow them to blend in the best with the background buzz of the city. The masking isn't perfect, so the Sec AI tally goes up slowly instead of instantly at 10 or 20.

shut crater
#

Cyberpunk is about life being impossible but then again humanity is fairly good surviving that

#

We've been through worse I think

#

(See 20th century, genetic bottleneck in homo sapiens, etc)

#

I mean we didn't always survive, but there was a chance

sterile cave
mystic rivet
near basin
#

Agree with you.
To clarify my position: I think Giuseppe's suggested changes would make a worse game.
However, I acknowledge that the lack of starting team customization is an area for improvement. Devs have said they have plans for this.
I also agree with the implied "the game's lore is weak and not fleshed out." Lore isn't required to be fleshed out or self-consistent, but when it isn't, it can be jarring when someone stops and thinks about the story being told.

If we think of this game as telling a story, then we don't want plot holes.
If the game isn't telling a specific story, then it is reasonable to consider the suggestion to add physical quantum magic.

sterile cave
#

Suspension of disbelief

#

Just saying

near basin
#

In my opinion, Suspension of Disbelief is why someone listens to a story in the first place. Once the story is told, the story should be self-consistent. Events or abilities that are incredulous can be jarring and interrupt the experience.

Plot holes are when the original suspension of disbelief doesn't cover the situation. Usually that would be a good place for the author to rewrite some of the backstory to maintain plausibility.

mystic rivet
# near basin Agree with you. To clarify my position: I think Giuseppe's suggested changes wo...

I think game is pretty good in the current state in terms of tactical gameplay, and would become even better with drones and more classes. Lore probably exists that ties it all together, but it would be good to have more explanation of what CK is and how Quantun Rider does stuff. I don't think I like the idea of "elite class CK" as it would quickly go towards being OP (and player is already OP relative to opposition), plus an overhaul of class system is not in the budget. However some finishing touches on CK may be fun to do if possible without derailing the world building/adding too much work for Devs.

near basin
#

^ That's why you started this thread, eh?

mystic rivet
#

An idea dump, yes

#

but from reading Cory's words I think the Quantum Rider upgrades/additional modules are out of the window as those don't exist. So no plugging in additional stuff other than what is provided during character creation. Which is a bummer as would be a neat way to show the world by interacting with different areas (probably way over budget limitation lol).

near basin
#

Andrew was asking for CK talent ideas. Treading the line of balanced, lore-fitting, and fun is difficult.

I think we could do with a lore brainstorming thread. It's a bit elitist of me, but I'd rather the lore be brainstormed by those that played Cyber Knight Classic. That should give a feel for the world that grew into CKF.

near basin
split torrent
# mild sorrel Wow, long discussion. At the very start of the game, you can multiclass your CK...

I think it's critical to call out any team buff that affects self as a 'buff, that also affects team'. Tactical Surge is fantastic for teh CK themselves and simply stellar for the team by extension.

Buffs that also are usable on oneself for significant benefit can just as easily be classified as self-buff benefits (and some, like Tac Surge, are incredibly powerful ones at that, making a class that is always flexible regardless of weapon or play preference - more AP and Better Initiative options, not to mention Stuns, are universally good abilities for the CK themselves)

split torrent
# near basin The part that doesn't fit lore is a calculator for quantum encryption being able...

I actually agree with this line of thinking but I can see the advantage of being able to override safeties, remote hack their system, with said advanced encryption cracking capability. Hence, in any direct damage discussion, the assumption is that you are cracking encryption and giving bogus commands to their implants.

I still prefer this causing a damage amplification effect (which I think would be unique) over direct damage myself, as I've proposed previously, but I do think there's a good case for some targeted 'hack the human's stuff' abilities beyond Atomic Stutter (which uses the same logic, clearly).

Same rational was what I was using for Entanglement, proposed earlier. Damage registered by target 1 was simulated in target 2's systems and feedback.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

yea, borders need to be defined first for any model. Because there is always Anarchy Online and some older games with "high" cyberpunk in the form of power armor / nanos for all / the Grid and other wonders.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

I don't remember marketing but AO was not hard sci fi for sure

limpid parcel
#

There were only two I saw that you couldn't use on yourself.

#

Rewind, and uhhh...

#

I think it might be Tactical Surge actually.

#

No, wait, it was Sync

#

Sync and Rewind

glacial nebula
#

The text is updated

limpid parcel
#

Which text?

mild sorrel
#

the text which clarifies whether a buff can be used on yourself.

glacial nebula
#

"yourself or a teammate"

split torrent
#

Also, a question that affects the CK power discussion and perhaps more broadly... anti drone powers. These really stand out at moment due to lack of drones, sure, but should these be best against drones but still have non drones applications, however more limited? That too might help in CK talent consideration (if the hard either/or wasn't to support a specific design goal)

#

I'd think that approach might also help tailor talents to still have options and optimal uses as well as direct uses with more freedom

marsh ermine
#

Okay, so I think what we need to consider is a class tree that "Splits the difference" between TheGuiseppe and My own bugbears with the vision of the brothers. So let's take stock of what a Cyber Knight IS according to the current game design philosophy.

  1. The CK Is a Leader.

  2. The CK's presence must serve as a "Trump card" that can turn the fate of a run with a variety of abilities designed to multiply the existing force of your team

  3. The CK's abilities directly interface with Quantum Security and computing systems.

  4. The CK's abilities are unique. OR at least, the combination of their abilities must come together to create something that feels unique.

Let's look at what works with the CK.

  1. The ability to alter initiative is an interesting and novel concept. It very much speaks to a certain kind of playstyle, and it offers lots of options for that specific style.

  2. The CK's center tree being primarily passives lends itself well to the flexibility and versatility aspect.

But the problems as I see them are this.

  1. The CK's abilities in some cases are either redundant (Used by other classes like hackers or vanguard) or lack a sense of "Impact."

  2. Most of the CK's active abilities aren't about you doing something cool, they're about you letting someone else do something cool. Acheivements feel "Deferred."

  3. While the center branch does augment mutliclassing with its bevy of passives, to get to it one must select an ability that feels unituitive and, again, feels more at home in the control/prediction/buff playstyle found in the left branch.

#

So what we need, in terms of solutions is to reconfigure the current tree and maybe minimally tweak some ability effects.

split torrent
mystic rivet
#

I am on board with this @marsh ermine . Its better to aim for something achievable as I don't think any radical alterations make sense now with some core things from roadmap still requiring work.

glacial nebula
shut crater
marsh ermine
#

In which case, I think I have a potential proposition here.

Quantum Branch. **
Conveys the ** "Leader As Mastermind" fantasy.
Having Quantum be the prediction and buffing branch makes a lot of sense. With the deep brain implant it creates a feeling like you're trying to staple your nervous system to a supercomputer to better "See" What it's seeing and make decisions based around that. Focus HARD on the idea of aiding your allies and predicting your enemy's next move through this. Maybe have "predict enemy pathways" be a passive you get at the top or something, as Lookahead currently feels very clunky.

Heavy Armor Branch
Conveys the "Leader As Warrior" Fantasy.
Literally what is Lookahead doing here? Ludonarratively, this tree being predominantly passives makes a lot of sense. If a Quantum Rider is such a powerful piece of tech that it temporarily "Kills" its user, then it must require a lot of physical resilience (Whether bionic or natural) To even house the bloody thing. I would say, aside from shifting Lookahead, maybe place the bionic heart in the center and have Ult Pump be its capstone. (Extra gear-slots as a tree node feels lacking. Why not have a base structure or a fixer talent focus on your team's gear? You could call it "Storage Space" or "Allocations Expert")

Additionally, you could probably blend Cardio Jolt and Ult-Pump. Have Ult Pump be the "Default" effect, but allow the fully upgraded version to be usable even while bleeding out, and then have it usable on yourself as well as an ally. Have it that you "Quantum Entangle" your heartbeat with an ally's, meaning your heart and theirs are in a state of quantum-locked "Sync" so one jump-starts the other.

Also, small flavor addition: Change it from "heavy armor" to "Revenant." Really lean into the fact that a CK needs to "Die" to don the rider. And feeling like a "knight" reanimated by technology feels like a beautiful blend of Slavic Legend and Cyberpunk badass.

#

Survival Branch
This one makes the least sense and would probably need the most "Dramatic" changes. First off, it's called "survival" When the center tree is literally all about upping your survivability. Second, it focuses entirely on drones of all things. I get that Drones have yet to be fully implemented, but even with them this branch lacks a lot of the "Tools" that other branches do.

I propose a change to this branch. If the Left branch is using quantum computing to predict and the center is using one's own ability to house a quantum rider to survive, then I propose the rightmost branch be using your enemy's connection to a quantum computer to exploit The enemy. Think of it like Ghost in The Shell, how Major Kusanagi can hack an enemy's cyber-eyes on the fly. Or how Lucy in Cyberpunk Edgerunners can overheat someone's neural-ware to cook them from the inside out. This conveys the fantasy of Leader As Anomaly. You are playing something strange, someone who has acess to abilities that can seem almost frigthening to those who witness it. And the good news is we can do this with relatively few changes to the current branch.

Disentangle and Quantum Assault don't need to change that much actually. However, I would say they should start only affecting organic enemies and then go on to effect drones as these abilities are upgraded. That way their flavor of "Hacking" feels a bit unique because it's exploiting your enemy's connection to a quantum network to shut off their eyes or Assail their nervous system.

#

From there, we can get more "dramatic." We can blind our enemies, cripple them, but let's get a little scarier. I propose "Quantum Burn." Using your enemy's connection to the network, you overclock any bionics and inflict a small amount of damage. This damage requires no weapon but nevertheless raises the alert since the network will likely sense your "Disturbance." You can upgrade the damage you do with a quantum burn, but it likewise raises the security, complicating matters further if you're not careful.

To further balance access to Quantum Burn, it and any other upgrades after Assault and Disentangle may require a "Cerebrospinal Lattice" a bionic upgrade to the spine slot. (Aside from balance, this would drive home the narrative of the cost of a Quantum Rider, as a player who wants all three branches needs to completely augment their entire nervous system.)

Other proposed abilities could be...

False Flag. Marks a target hostile as an "intruder" to the security system, pitting drones and soldiers against them until the start of your next round. Upgrades lengthen duration or buff enemy "Friendly fire."

Basilisk Pattern Infects a region of the map with a cognitohazardous code that temporarily "Freezes" the first security guard or drone that sees it in their LOS. Once it "Resets" it becomes immune to this effect and immediately enters the "Hunt" state. Upgrades lengthen duration or allow the pattern to work on multiple targets.

Biolink Glitch. Infected enemies have a chance to suffer a catastrophic malfunction in ther weapon's biolink ID system, causing them to "Drop" their primary weapon or otherwise cause the weapon to malfunction. (maybe the weapon has a chance to damage the user?)

#

TL; DR Left could focus on buff and prediction, middle on survivability (Move Ult Pump and jolt to the center. Drop the extra item slot and make that into a passive you get from a building upgrade or the fixer tree) and focus on the right tree on debuffs or tech-based damage.

#

Keep in mind all of this is a SUGGESTION. This isn't me saying what SHOULD be done. Just what I would do in a similar position.

limpid parcel
#

I'm more okay with this idea actually.
So long as the abilities mesh well with the use of most weapons, so you can still realistically use any weapon like you can now.

kindred glen
#

re: combining cardiojolt+ult-pump. Maybe i'm not understanding, but with the current mechanics that proposal sounds rather tantamount to just removing cardiojolt. You don't go unconscious when you get the bleeding out status in this game. Bleeding out just means that if you're reduced to zero again without intervening medical attention then you actually will die.

#

Thus, the value of cardiojolt is that it's off-turn reflexive healing that then makes you eligible to for another round of bleeding out status rather than dying if you're reduced to zero again

#

it's a "circuitbreaker" talent, something that allows the character survive situations that would otherwise deny them the chance to respond

#

heist crews in flashpoint are actually already sneaky hard to kill, it's just that the game inflicts other forms of attrition upon you for leaning upon it too heavily.

#

A cyberknight who purposefully abuses those mechanics can take punishment that is frankly pretty absurd

#

On lower difficulties you can get hopped up on caltraxia and abuse them while rocking very high wound and stress resistance. I don't really recommend playing the game as if the CK is a T-800, but it's already surprisingly viable

marsh ermine
mystic rivet
mystic rivet
#

Here is my take on changing CK skill trees:

#

Left tree should mostly be staying the same. It would contain all buffs and initiative manipulation. The only update for me would be to change Downer talent for Steamroll. I think that Steamroll would fit the theme of that tree better. I would move Downer to a class that has other +crit chance talents. Net: same number of talents for left tree.

Centering would move into right tree, together with Unflinching Stare (that I would like to see as a single target active skill, keeping with the “Survival” theme of the tree). I would probably move the Stopgap into right survival tree as well. Cardio Jolt and Ult Pump stay where they are now.

Two drone talents move to the center tree. So right tree would get +1 talent net.

#

Central tree is where most changed would occur. Two drone talents are added from the right tree (one skill above another as these are in the skill tree now, lowest linking with “Lookahead”). Two new talents are added:

  • Fake AI comms (or “Go away”). Target guard would receive a faked order from Security AI asking to check a particular map area (player to select). Guard would change to Suspicious status and would proceed to target area. Upon reaching target area Guard changes to “Hunting” status and hunts in the area until new order from Security AI is received. Upgrades to increase duration. Increases security tally on activation.

If this is too hard to do, then:

  • Biofeedback Overload (or “iFry”) - By decoding communications with Security AI Cyber Knight overloads target Guard’s implants with excess feedback. -3 AP, -3 MP, target can move but can’t shoot/attack/use skills. Upgrades add to range, strength of effect (bigger debuff) and also to duration. Increases security tally on activation.
#

Or (if the talents above fit some other class better)

  • Party Time. Passive talent. By decoding Security AI orders entry point for next reinforcements is shown on the map. Upgrade to increase charges and reduce recharge.

Or

  • Enhanced Countermeasures. Passive talent. At the end of turn there is an x% chance to remove "n" security tally from the count. Or may be this should be an active talent, remove "X" tally for "Y" turns. At the end of turn "Y+1" Security AI realises that something is up and you get "Z" tally extra generated in that turn.

Both skill lines then link up for a final talent (that is also linked up to Extra Carry).

I would like to see an AOE talent here that would affect both drones and humans.

  • IFF Jammer (AOE interrupt/or “puddle of control” that Drusus suggested). Enemies in the area can move but can’t use any attacks as they can’t identify friend from foe. Upgrades to increase area size / duration balanced by large Security AI tally increase / reinforcement deployment due to threat level. If this is not possible or hard to code, AOE stun a-la Concussion Grenade would give similar effect and it can link up with Atomic Stutter.
shut crater
merry bear
mystic rivet
shut crater
split torrent
# mystic rivet Or (if the talents above fit some other class better) - Party Time. Passive tal...

I like the take across the board here Twista. The AP/Move removal on biofeedback certainly works but I would still consider alternatives there too like damage amplication/armor bypass or other secondary ways to make a target more deletable, or even direct damage to some small degree, but your take on it works just fine for my sensibilities.

And as long as the Drone skills are considered in a 'affects targets, drones most of all' approach (which I think should be more universal honestly, as a guideline), the skill location juggling seems sensible.

mystic rivet
split torrent
# mystic rivet I am just thinking that the skills like "disarm because biolock on weapon is gli...

I think that's sound (and I don't know much about Jacknife expectations). The targeting APs felt nicely on brand for the CK's motif to me, so all good.

I'm sure I just like Damage Amplification as a way to make the CK directly a threat (especially if that can get down to zero or one AP cost), as it checks all the boxes in my head:

  • Self plus team benefit
  • Directly affects target in a way that is impactful and felt (bigger damage output)
  • Not like other buffs (isn't evasion or shred reduction, which are situational - just a flat 'this is going to hurt' effect)
  • Totally attack choice agnostic
  • Doesn't stray into Magic Missile territory, still requiring paired attacks/activity to capitalize, as seems to be the rule.
  • Matches lore and spirit of other mechanics regarding cyberware, hacking interference and wound vulnerability

Your AP arguments I think are compelling for similar reasons, I'm just trying to explain my line of reasoning.

mystic rivet
marsh ermine
#

So, to collate what all we've been talkling about.

  1. Left branch: Largely unchanged, maybe some minor reworks to certain control/force amplification abilities.

  2. Center Branch: Passives built around heavy armor/survival/ Possibly include the Ult-pump and cardiojolt since this is the more "Physical" branch of the three.

3.Right Branch: Focus on flexible debuffs, weapon-agnostic damage and/or Damage amplification.