#✨Armor Rule Change

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storm meteor
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Rules for armor points are about to change. you have not faced that many enemies with more than 1 Armor Point, but your characters can have Armor with up to 2 points, so this affects you too.

Thoughts and discussion are welcome!

Previously - Armor has 3 stats - Full Protection (68%), Shredded Protection (22%) and Armor Points (2). The armor provides full protection against all attacks until the Armor Points are shredded to 0, then Shredded Protection is used.

  • This was to the advantage of the Armor wearer
  • Armor Shredders like Shotguns were rapidly effective against 1 Armor Point targets but disappointing against 2 Armor Point targets as you need 2 Shreds before you see any results

New Rule - Armor has 3 stats - Full Protection (68%), Shredded Protection (22%) and Armor Points (2). The armor provides full protection against all attacks while the Armor has all of it Armor Points. When it reaches 0 Armor Points, it provides Shredded Protection. In between it reduces the Protection % proportional to the difference between Full Protection and Shredded protection (Full 68 - Shredded 22 = 46% / 2 Armor Points = 23% per Point) plus 25% of the value one point (23% per point x 0.25 = 5% bonus). So, this example Armor would go from 68% to 50% (45% + 5% bonus) to 22%.

  • Disadvantage to armor wearers
  • Advantage to all Talents and Items that recover Armor Points, this become useful immediately upon the first Shred and not only in desperate times when you are 0 Armor Points
  • Advantage to Armor Shredders like Shotguns, E-Rifles and Blades. Any Shred event yields immediate reduction in target armor
  • Advantage to armor designer. Increases ability to provide a wider range of interesting Armors. Players will be interested in a very specific type of S-Tier armor all time, but this is especially good for enemies (68%/22% with 2 Pts vs. 68%/22% with 8 Pts ... 90%/60% with 1 Pt ... 90%/30% with 3 Pts)
  • Advantage to enemy designer, see above
fiery briar
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Suggestion: Armor has 4 stats - Full Protection (68%), Shredded Protection (22%), Hardening (25%), and Armor Points (2).

Hardening is the +25% of the value of the single armor point added on, slowing the degradation.

Values for Hardening would vary from 0% to 75% (in extreme cases) with typical values between 15% and 30%.

Gives a nod toward CKC hardened armor

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Exoticly rare shredding mods on weapons could lower the hardening value temporarily as well as shredding armor points.

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(Potentially lowering the hardening to a negative value?)

golden stratus
fiery briar
golden stratus
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hardening should just go to 0

fiery briar
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Yeah

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Hardening would always be 0% on 1 Armor Point gear, btw.

golden stratus
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perhaps shredded value and by extention protection can be decrease to around 20% max

drifting elk
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while you are changing things, is it worthwhile to use 66/25 instead of 68/22? These numbers can be easily computed in your head.

crude crag
fiery briar
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Lemme do different numbers for easier math for us

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Pretend 80% Full, 20% Shred, 50% Hardening, 3 Armor Points

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If hardening 0%:
At 1 Armor point shredded, 80% -> 60% (-20%)
At 2 Armor points shredded, 80% -> 40% (-20% more)
At all 3 Armor points shredded 80% -> 20% (-20%, the rest)

If hardening were the really high value of 50%:
At 1 Armor point shredded 80% -> 70% (-10%)
At 2 Armor points shredded 80% -> 60% (-10% more)
At 3 armor points shredded 80% -> 20% (-40% more, the rest)

long sail
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so hardening turns it from a linear decrease to making the first few points less impactful and the last few really impactful?

fiery briar
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Yeah, But typical values would be 10-30%

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Andrew's suggestion was all hardening would be 25%

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Hardening is graceful decay until it's totally toast.

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A hardening of 100% is what we have today

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(No decay until armor points = 0)

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With my example values, Andrew's 25% hardening is:

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At 1 Armor point shredded, 80% -> 65% (-15%)
At 2 Armor points shredded, 80% -> 50% (-15% more)
At all 3 Armor points shredded 80% -> 20% (-30%, the rest)

long sail
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my first impression was that a straight linear decrease in protection was deep enough, because it still seems intuitive to me. harder to communicate 'rates of change' of protection values to the player.

crude crag
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Andrew was using 0% Hardening

long sail
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yeah i'm not positve that 25% hardening as Dr Spendlove described is the same exact thing as the 25% of 1 point that Andrew had in the first post

crude crag
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ah, yes, Andrew did have a 25% in there. yes, it is equivalent to 25% hardening in @fiery briar's model

long sail
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this is what i think Andrew proposed:
With Dr. Spendlove example values, :
at zero points shredded, 80%
At 1 Armor point shredded, 80% -> 65% (-20%+5%)
At 2 Armor points shredded, 80% -> 45% (-40% +5%)
At all 3 Armor points shredded 80% -> 20% (-60%, )

crude crag
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mmm. no, wouldn't be +5%...

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wait, my brain is fuzzy. yes, those numbers are correct for Andrew's proposal

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and you're right, that's not the same as @fiery briar's hardening

long sail
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I think we need to weigh the improved accuracy/opening up the armor design space vs the increased complexity

fiery briar
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Ooh, I got my math wrong. I intended it to match

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Anyway, I've only ever seen tons of complexity in Trese Brother's games and loved it. But that doesn't mean it's the best choice.

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My aim was opening up that 25% to be subject to armor traits, but I'm not married to any detail.

crude crag
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being able to explain it would be good

fiery briar
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Also, this pattern would be best addressed by starting with exactly what Andrew suggested.

crude crag
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I'm not sure yours is harder to explain than Andrew's

fiery briar
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And then later, if desired, split into armor specific mods.

long sail
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for what it's worth I like the idea of having some armor with really high protection that is easy to shred vs armor that's more middling but harder to get rid of. I just think it can be done with more vs fewer armor points as direct proportions rather than changing the shape of the protection graph

long sail
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so having the hardening as described by dr spendlove opens up another armor type that we couldn't have otherwise:

armor that takes a beating for a while and then becomes near useless.

in addition to armor that is really effective but easy to shred (few AP armor points) and
armor that is somewhat effective but takes a long time/lots of effort to shred (lots of armor points)

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the same might be achieved with a mod that gives bonus armor points that you have to shred before getting to the actual armor decreases.

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that's its own kind of complexity though.

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is there already a mechanic that makes it harder or easier to shred points on a given piece of armor or enemy?

golden stratus
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Weapon shred @long sail

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It's armor shred most visible on shotguns

storm meteor
fiery briar
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Eh, make complexity one at a time?

storm meteor
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armor that takes a beating before becoming useless is what we have today, which largerly removes armor shredding from the meta

fiery briar
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Start with the partial shred without the +25% piece and iterate?

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You could even retheme hardening to a shredded armor that doesn't degrade on the loss of exactly 1 armor point. That's it.

storm meteor
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that is a better way of looking

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weapons and armors are all goign to be getting more and more "minor" special rules

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see the double-pump Armor Shred on that latest shotgun

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armor with "Hardened" special rule really does hommage to CK classic ❤️

fiery briar
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You could have a special rule for extra line of sight on an armor as homage to TA

storm meteor
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not too worried about homages tbh 😄

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but special rules on armor/weapons is longterm healthy

cunning copper
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Gradual degradation does seem like a better model than all or nothing.

It's really hard to evaluate because, as I might have mentioned, I hardly ever get shot at let alone hit. Most enemies have 0AP so they are not relevant and most other enemies go down in 2 hits/bursts so it's hard to tell spot what is happening.
Actually I am not sure I have encoutnered 2 AP enemies and 1 AP enemies are also not effected.

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Or are they - does shredding happen before or after damage form the attack that shreds?

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Actually again the change couldnt affect this case either

long sail
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suggestion: call them protection points or armor health or something else to avoid confusion with action points when abbreviated

storm meteor
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good change there ^^

storm meteor
covert ice
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It does? So if you're going for a one-shot kill shredding makes no difference? I felt like shredding hits did more damage but maybe not.

storm meteor
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I can confirm that the order is:

  1. Damage is Rolled 2) Armor is Shred
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you do get this now in the HUD all th etime

storm meteor
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this is all in prep for higher Protection Point enemies coming online

fiery briar
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I'd assume the shred was an after effect, as a new player.

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(which it currently is)

covert ice
storm meteor
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the raildart does not suffice 😉

covert ice
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lol, doesn't quite scratch the itch but I do love it.

cunning copper
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More shredding questions

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(oops) does the E cutter automatic shred work in addition to the usual shred chance?
I assume it too is after damage
Do automatic weapons check once per instance of damage? once per target? once per firing action? something else. The L3 UAR would be a very good shredder with 8 shots at 30%.
Do shots in a burst resolve their shredding one shot at a time (assuming they all shred) So second shot in a burst would benefit from shredding by the first (or not)

storm meteor
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  1. yes, E-Cutter shred is bonus
  2. full auto weapons check once per shot, but max at 1 shred total. so, higher % of shredding for sure, but can't shred 2
  3. burst fire is considered a single attack, once attempt to shred
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the UAR is indeed a good shredder in FA

violet snow
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About the discussion for armor hardening:
A default criteria could be to make the armor default to increasing the damage by the same proportion each shred.

Edit: after thinking through this and messing up the math, I really like Andrew's original proposal of fixed hardening of 25%. My idea is neat too, but at least for this example. The values are nearly identical, so what does it matter?

~~Example scenario:
80% at full, 20% shredded, 3 points
Difference/pt: 60%/3 = 20%. The 25% bonus is 5%.

Original post proposal:
Armor: 80%, 65%, 50%, 20%
100 damage deals: 20, 35, 50, 80

My proposal:
Use geometric progression (+59%)
So damage dealt: 20, 32, 50, 80

For math, geometric progression value is (Full/Shredded)^(1/Points). So for my example, (80/20)^(1/3)

As an interesting note, the 0% hardening is the same as using a arithmetic progression. That would be +20 for this example:
So damage dealt: 20, 40, 60, 80~~

storm meteor
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✨ Armor Rule Change Preview

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✨Armor Rule Change Preview

fiery briar
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Is this still a Preview?

storm meteor
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✨Armor Rule Change

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nope, fixed title

fiery briar
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Oh!

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It's in place today?

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Does it have the +25% hardening thing?

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Or is it just 60 -> 40 -> 20% with 2 AP and 60% peak and 20% min?

storm meteor
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+25% hardening yes

fiery briar
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ok!

fiery briar
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One-liner (from the wiki):
Partially Shredded % = Unshredded Amount % - ((Unshredded Amount % - Fully Shredded Amount %) / Total Protection Points) * (Points Shredded - 0.25)

storm meteor
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Soak Per Protection Point = (Full Protection - Shredded Protection) / Max Protection Points

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having this value makes the equation much simpler

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Partially Shredded % = Shredded Protection + (current Protection Points x Soak Per Protection Point) + (0.25 + Soak Per Protection Point)

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just more readable overall

fiery briar
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I know

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But I wanted a one liner

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I suppose it's strictly better with readability as a focus.

storm meteor
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yeah, really want players to be able to understand it

fiery briar
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pfft

storm meteor
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I don't understand taht one liner ,3

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❤️

fiery briar
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Hmm your equation needed a *

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Partially Shredded % = Shredded Protection + (current Protection Points x Soak Per Protection Point) + (0.25 * Soak Per Protection Point)

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Right?

storm meteor
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yes, that's fixed

fiery briar
storm meteor
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correct

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thanks for example, super important

fiery briar
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I'll clean up the intermediate math if needed

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fixed

cunning copper
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So AP are gone and it's Protection Points now? (I'll keep an eye out for old usage if so)

Also that formula bugs me as it's different for all and no PP remaining 🙂

fiery briar
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PP shouldn't be confused with AP

cunning copper
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So PP is the new name for AP while AP will still be called AP. I see,