development

[magic hazel]

done automatically

[slim bramble]

"Oh yeah, I need to use C in my project, I'm gonna create a package just for that"

[magic hazel]

generally yes it makes your project less cluttered

[slim bramble]

Mentally ill behaviors

[wooden yarrow]

another blue pfp spotted

2 so far

[slim bramble]

plx

[gentle grove]

Which one of you is the original

[wooden yarrow]

gm

[magic hazel]

me when my source code is 500mb of pure text because all my dependencies use verbose langs and are all embedded

[wooden yarrow]

idk I put my on at like 2020

relatively late

[magic hazel]

or if you're a web dev, 2gb of pure text

looking at typescript

[gentle grove]

machine code is the most verbose out of all of these

[slim bramble]

Bro swift literally compiles static

wtf are you on about

😭

[gentle grove]

LMAO

[magic hazel]

when did i even

mention

compiled binaries

😭

[gentle grove]

you compile a program, even with dynamic linking, and it becomes way larger than the source code

[magic hazel]

yes and?

why are we on compiling

😭

[gentle grove]

so JS would be smaller

[gentle grove]

You have to compile a program to run it

[magic hazel]

yes???

i was talking about source code size

[slim bramble]

You started arguing about the dependencies being embedded in rust

[magic hazel]

and unwieldly repo managements

[gentle grove]

you don't have 500 mb of source code on js

[magic hazel]

i was actually targeting rust there

not js

lol

[slim bramble]

I mean it's the same in both case

[gentle grove]

you don't have 500 mb of source code on rust either

you're probably thinking of compiling

[slim bramble]

[magic hazel]

^

[slim bramble]

Yes

[magic hazel]

have you seen a rust codebase

[gentle grove]

no more than the average swift full tree of code

[slim bramble]

when compiling you easily end up at 2GB project file

[magic hazel]

way more

swift codebases are tiny

the entire swift compiler

swift 6

is like

3gb

including

llvm

and all its dependencies

[gentle grove]

lol

[magic hazel]

the entire compiler

[slim bramble]

mfs after pulling the 200000000 packages needed

[magic hazel]

swift code is tiny

and concise

[gentle grove]

rust code is about as concise as swift

[magic hazel]

💀

[gentle grove]

and that's to say not very

[magic hazel]

thats crazy

[gentle grove]

Actually very if you look at it from a different perspective

Both very expressive languages

[magic hazel]

bro what

[gentle grove]

You use a small amount of code to mean a lot compared to like C or something

[magic hazel]

i am so confused

[slim bramble]

llvm without swift is 1.5GB

therefore objc wins

[magic hazel]

does anyone here actually code in swift properly

like

more than

here or there

this is so false

😭

[gentle grove]

it's at best a tie between rust and swift if you want to die on this hill

[magic hazel]

swift's literal language guidelines are "omit needless words"

[gentle grove]

have you ever seen rust code

[magic hazel]

yes

[gentle grove]

its obnoxiously concise

to the point of unreadability

[magic hazel]

i dont consider that concise though

[gentle grove]

That's the primary complaint about rust

[slim bramble]

no, because :

• toolchain is garbage
• no(/poor) unsafe
• ABI is dogshit
• SwiftUI slop etc
• static binaries

[magic hazel]

swift is very safe

swift is safer than objective c

objectively

[gentle grove]

all this work for it to not even be perfectly safe smh my head

[magic hazel]

it is literally one of it's core features

if you can't use it to make safe code

that is like

[slim bramble]

I'm talking about unsafe support

[magic hazel]

a full on skill issue

[magic hazel]

?

[gentle grove]

oh that makes more sense

[magic hazel]

i mean

[gentle grove]

it's too safe and you can't do anything

:/

[magic hazel]

that makes more sense that what you just said

yeah

that makes more sense

because swift is safe as fuck

[slim bramble]

that's my point

[magic hazel]

but you also can

unsafemutablepointer

lol

[gentle grove]

rust is safe but you can also unsafe to do things

[slim bramble]

.pointee .makeCallable

[magic hazel]

you can also do unowned self

[slim bramble]

I call that garbage unsafe support

Look at ellekit code, you'll understand what I mean

[gentle grove]

swift's ownership model is bloat
reference counting is for chumps

[slim bramble]

Oh yeah that too

[magic hazel]

i mean if you primarily use low level c based langs then i get not liking swift

[slim bramble]

gm @harsh junco

[harsh junco]

wait wtf ellekit is written in swift? Literally the worst decision one can make

[magic hazel]

it's more abstract and does a lot more for you and takes a lot of that control away

[harsh junco]

gm!!

[gentle grove]

its so funny how personally you take any criticism of swift

[slim bramble]

It is

[magic hazel]

not personally

[slim bramble]

fr

[magic hazel]

just

when things are wrong

[slim bramble]

No you're literally taking them personally

[gentle grove]

they are not objectively wrong things though

[slim bramble]

it's insane

copium

[gentle grove]

maybe you think they are, but for most of these not objectively so

like me with rust in 2020

idk if rootfs was therr

[magic hazel]

pretty much everything ive said has been more or less correct bar a few things

[slim bramble]

Never used rust nor swift much

[gentle grove]

just because you say correct things doesn't mean we only say incorrect things

[slim bramble]

I'm keeping myself sane

[gentle grove]

Become a systems developer with C

[slim bramble]

FR

[gentle grove]

Objc users go to hell

[magic hazel]

also why is the toolchain garbage

what is wrong with the toolchain

😭

[gentle grove]

all of us are just asserting things that are somewhat subjective and impossible to "prove" objectively either way

[slim bramble]

You need to watch the video by tsoding daily on swift

[gentle grove]

all 3 of us

[magic hazel]

ive built that shit from scratch hundreds of times atp and all i can say is its slow on old hardware

but other than that

idk

[slim bramble]

@lime pivot back me up please

[slim bramble]

fr

[slim bramble]

What does that have to do with anything?

[magic hazel]

you said the toolchain is garbage and i have pretty intimate relations with the toolchain

love/hate relationship

(metaphor obviously don't twist)

[magic hazel]

seems like he likes the lang?

also

idk why

but he's using incorrect syntax

i think

i thought they removed support for the ;

[slim bramble]

Before you go haywire, the video came out a few years ago

it's not swift 6, prob swift 5.10

[gentle grove]

lmfao

syntax becomes incorrect when its a few years old

[slim bramble]

fr

[magic hazel]

; was never official syntax

not even from swift 1.0

it was just there to help objc users move over

like a lot of old syntax was

[gentle grove]

swift has so much syntax bloat

[slim bramble]

fr

[magic hazel]

swift methods are far more concise than their objc counterparts

[slim bramble]

mfs when they have to decide whether to use guard if or if let

[gentle grove]

Ive heard that consistently from people that actually use swift a lot

[magic hazel]

they do different things

its not a choice

[gentle grove]

there's a whole bunch of redundant features and that makes it annoying to read and learn

[slim bramble]

You do rust, you shouldn't be allowed to talk on that matter

[gentle grove]

It doesn't really have the same issue

[slim bramble]

rust is borderline not readable by a non rust dev

[magic hazel]

if let unwraps the optional conditionally if it can be assigned guard let unwraps and if it cant, it throws

[gentle grove]

I'm talking about the syntax redundancy

[slim bramble]

I mean yeah at least rust has a point on the syntax

[gentle grove]

Rust doesn't really have a bunch of random garbage features that all do the same thing

everything that's different does something different

[slim bramble]

else {throw whatever}

same thing

[gentle grove]

I forgot the example I got from mai in swift

[magic hazel]

its not the same thing else isnt a proper error throw

[gentle grove]

It feels like they kinda just wing it when developing swift

[magic hazel]

if let silently just fails asw

guard let wont

[slim bramble]

"ermmm actually throw isn't a proper error throwing"

Just make functional code

fr

[gentle grove]

Haskell is worse don't word it like that

[harsh junco]

@slim bramble do you know if flexing works on apps written in swift?

[slim bramble]

oh good luck

[harsh junco]

?)

[magic hazel]

UILabel *label = [[UILabel alloc] initWithFrame:CGRectMake(0, 0, 200, 50)];
label.text = @"Hello, world!";
label.textColor = [UIColor redColor];
[self.view addSubview:label];

let label = UILabel(frame: CGRect(x: 0, y: 0, width: 200, height: 50))
label.text = "Hello, world!"
label.textColor = .red
view.addSubview(label)

UIButton *button = [UIButton buttonWithType:UIButtonTypeSystem];
[button setTitle:@"Tap Me" forState:UIControlStateNormal];
[button addTarget:self action:@selector(buttonTapped:) forControlEvents:UIControlEventTouchUpInside];
[self.view addSubview:button];

- (void)buttonTapped:(UIButton *)sender {
    NSLog(@"Button tapped!");
}

let button = UIButton(type: .system)
button.setTitle("Tap Me", for: .normal)
button.addTarget(self, action: #selector(buttonTapped), for: .touchUpInside)
view.addSubview(button)

@objc func buttonTapped(_ sender: UIButton) {
    print("Button tapped!")
}

[slim bramble]

You might wanna go to the first floor, be far far away from sharp objects

and so on

[magic hazel]

me when swift is far more concise

across the board

objc repeats the name of types over and over and over and over

[slim bramble]

Yeah and the fact you have to use interop makes it garbage

[gentle grove]

having to specify function parameter names in function calls:

[slim bramble]

because UIKit isn't made to be used with swift, you're supposed to be using ShitUI. But ShitUI is absolute garbage

[magic hazel]

_

[gentle grove]

But that's wrong

[magic hazel]

you dont have ot use interop

idk what you're talking about

you can remove @objc

and itll work

lol

but yes

you are right

uikit is built for objc

[slim bramble]

Yeah but it's still going to be using interop under the hood

[magic hazel]

not swift

yes

it will

you are correct

[slim bramble]

because swift still have to dispatch messages

[magic hazel]

swiftui was built for swift

[slim bramble]

and dispatching messages in swift is insanely slow

[magic hazel]

and it serves its purpose as a declarative language excellently for most people

obviously you can dislike swiftui

[gentle grove]

swiftui was built for swift
it also sucks
HMMMMM

[slim bramble]

FR

LOL

[magic hazel]

i mean ngl

it works for liike

99% of apple devs

so honestly

[slim bramble]

No it doesn't

[magic hazel]

skrilll issue

[slim bramble]

Me when I have to cold start my app and it takes 10s to laod

like be fr

[gentle grove]

SwiftUI consumers when tasked with making their ui render a stable 60 hz without "optimizing" it

[magic hazel]

i never had any problem with that

i run an iphone se 2

on ios 26

[harsh junco]

Yet, Apple themselves still uses objc(++) for the most of iOS environment….

[magic hazel]

they dont use objc for ui

[slim bramble]

Because you aren't running any serious app

[magic hazel]

i am

[gentle grove]

Well performance issues are a common thing I've seen

[magic hazel]

what are you talking about

what apps

are you running

that are more "serious"

in swiftui

[slim bramble]

That isn't quite true, they are rewriting some frameworks to swift

[gentle grove]

Idk how you could not see this unless you don't talk to anyone here

[harsh junco]

wtf

[magic hazel]

swiftui has issues sometimes for sure

but its not like oh use swiftui immediately 10 second overhead

[slim bramble]

Some app designed for consummers

[magic hazel]

thats complete horseshit

thats bad app design

not bad swiftui

i can get the same thing to happen on uikit

with poor code

easily

in fact

i already have

7 calayers in

and i have that already

10 second overhead when starting the app up

for my dc client

7 fucking calayers

7

[gentle grove]

It seems apparently it is a bit difficult to have good app design on swift ui

[magic hazel]

its really easy

most people manage it quit ewell

however

its very easy to get lazy

with swiftui

and not optimise

and thats where you ahev issues

its not as easy to do that

with uikit

uikit is more rigid

requires you to put in more effort and generally means more optimised ui

[gentle grove]

why do you have to focus so hard on optimizing swiftui when it doesn't seem to be a big issue on other frameworks

:/

[magic hazel]

you dont

swiftui lets you feel lazy

so

when you do have to optimise

it feels like more effort

you dont get that on uikit to boot

so it feels the same

[gentle grove]

Idk I don't really believe it. Some of my friends I know aren't the lazy kind

[magic hazel]

its not lazy as a person

swiftui lets you stop thinking critically

because it's so easy to write

which leads you down bad practicies

it is one of its flaws

swiftui should be more rigid

i deeply dislike that about it

swiftui is not without its faults

[gentle grove]

Lazy programmer kind

[magic hazel]

but swiftui just being "oh you use it and its like so slow and so poorly made and shitui"

it just isn't

like point blank it isn't, it was swiftui 13

it just isn't anymore

if you put the same effort you put into uikit

into swiftui

you'll get the same result

i'm going to be brutally honest

[gentle grove]

damn backtracking into a specific version cutoff

[magic hazel]

swiftui 13 was 1.0

so yes

it was poor

[gentle grove]

Making progress

[magic hazel]

uikit 1.0 was poor

swiftui has had time to mature

swiftui started off shit

i will give you that

the 10 view limit

was shit

but it is no longer shit

[slim bramble]

Swift compiler telling you "couldn’t computer whatever"

[magic hazel]

what?

[slim bramble]

Swift compiler using 10gb ram to compile

Swift compiler being utterly slow

[magic hazel]

that's just false, or use error

also false

it's slightly slower than objc

[slim bramble]

Nope

[magic hazel]

but not utterly slow

[gentle grove]

couldn't compute the complexity of something I thought

[slim bramble]

Yes

[gentle grove]

Or the type

[lime pivot]

no

[gentle grove]

I know what you're talking about

[lime pivot]

use what you wanna use

[wooden yarrow]

The compiler is unable to type-check this expression in reasonable time; try breaking up the expression into distinct sub-expressions

[magic hazel]

yes

that is shit

[gentle grove]

I remember what superbro was always complaining about

[magic hazel]

i will agree on that

that is fucked

i hate that error

[lime pivot]

there's no one tool for the job. sometimes one is objectively (ha) better, sometimes one is just more comfortable for you

[magic hazel]

completely agree

[gentle grove]

lol

[magic hazel]

100%

like i said

swiftui

has its faults

but it is not "shitui"

[lime pivot]

SwiftUI on iOS 13 genuinely was bad

[magic hazel]

it's not react native

[gentle grove]

you didn't really say that

[magic hazel]

tes

[gentle grove]

you basically said all of them were programmer faults

you always change what you're saying repeatedly

[magic hazel]

??????

[slim bramble]

Lame, moving 16Player to havoc

[gentle grove]

I don't think you did until you started backtracking at the end

[lime pivot]

even React Native is pretty damn good. like to be clear the only thing web about it is that the program logic is js

[gentle grove]

I feel like definitely the central argument that was conveyed was that

even if you put a weasel statement at the start

I don't really remember

[magic hazel]

swiftui is not some perfect ui framework

not by a long shot

not even close

[slim bramble]

Discord is pretty garbage if you ask me

[magic hazel]

but it is not "bad"

the discord app is so slow

it is so poorly made

[gentle grove]

But any time someone brings up a legitimate fault you brush it off and deny it as incorrect

[magic hazel]

swiftui is no worse than uikit in my opinion

[lime pivot]

if the only example you're aware of is Discord then I'd say it's doing great

[magic hazel]

what?

most faults

that were brought up

[gentle grove]

read yourself

[magic hazel]

were user rror

there were a few

that were not

if your code is taking 10 seconds to startup

99% of the time that is your fault

[gentle grove]

at what point is it 'everyone is using it wrong' vs 'it is designed wrong so the user is using it wrong'

[slim bramble]

Because that’s the only app using react native I use

[lime pivot]

that you know of

[slim bramble]

No, that I use

[magic hazel]

doesnt instagram use it?

[slim bramble]

It’s not afair

[magic hazel]

and like

[gentle grove]

It wasn't even brought up, you brought this up on your own and debunked it separately to try and reinforce your argument

[magic hazel]

all meta apps

[lime pivot]

they use bits of it around the app

[gentle grove]

I think that's called something but I don't remember

[magic hazel]

!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[lime pivot]

Facebook does dogfood React/React Native

[gentle grove]

you're the one that came up with an app taking 10 seconds to start

[slim bramble]

Nope

That’s swift issue

[magic hazel]

I DIDNT BRING IT UP

[slim bramble]

I did

[magic hazel]

😭

[slim bramble]

Because that’s shitui

[gentle grove]

@slim bramble fuck you

[magic hazel]

NO I DDINT

LMAO

[slim bramble]

Gm Amy

[grim sparrow]

gm

[gentle grove]

I forgot where I was going

[slim bramble]

I brought it up like 100 messages earlier tho

[gentle grove]

you ruined it

[slim bramble]

If he does just bring it up now, I’d say it ain’t my fault

[magic hazel]

no it was when it was relevant

like

[gentle grove]

you put it in his mind

[magic hazel]

a few msgs after

lol

anyways

[gentle grove]

planted the seed of relevance

[magic hazel]

yes

[gentle grove]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-falling-fell-cat-fall-actions-of-consequences-gif-6423099276708320422

[magic hazel]

ngl i feel like if your app takes 10 seconds to start it's not language error

swift is perfectly competent

like

i get not liking it

[slim bramble]

I said cold start

It does take 10s

[magic hazel]

ill submit to thinking its bad

[magic hazel]

then that's not swift's fault

[gentle grove]

sometimes an engineer must accept that the tool being used wrong by people is an indicator of the tool being designed wrong

[slim bramble]

Never had this issue

[lime pivot]

it takes effort to make an app take more than 2 secs to start

[slim bramble]

On objc

[magic hazel]

^^^^

you've never one to one compared a swift app with an objc app

[slim bramble]

With 10s I’m obviously exaggerating but it’s very very slow

[lime pivot]

it's especially a problem when you keep loading an app up with 3rd party deps, especially if they late load things or do other funky things early on

[magic hazel]

in all my testing which has been very extensive when porting swift to ios 6 which may i remind you runs on a fucking 3gs, swift is no slower than objc

the language itself

is not slower

[lime pivot]

I don't even know how it could be

[magic hazel]

ITS OBJC

THATS THE THIGN

SWIFT

IS AN OBJC WRAPPER

😭

[lime pivot]

it's still just… machine code. being produced by LLVM

[slim bramble]

Yes because it can’t do otherwise

[magic hazel]

SWIFT IS LITERALLY OBJC IT CANNOT BE SLOWER

[magic hazel]

THIS TOO

IT MAKES OBJC CALLS

THE CALLS ARE THE SAME THE RUNTIME IS THE SAME

[lime pivot]

if anything, the objc runtime is the slow part

[magic hazel]

YES

LMAO

😭

OBJC IS LITERALLY THE CORE RUNTIME OF SWIFT

SWIFT RELIES ON IT FOR ALL ITS LOW LEVEL FUNCTIONS

[lime pivot]

do we need to shout

[slim bramble]

You didn’t read my message earlier so I’ll say it again, but every time you make an objc call from swift, the data types have to be converted, same thing happens afterwards. So I’d say swift issue

[magic hazel]

MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON IS FORCE ON oh wait i can use shift

[magic hazel]

that happens compile time

not runtime

[slim bramble]

No

Runtime

[magic hazel]

😭 oh my god

[lime pivot]

what types are we talking about here

[magic hazel]

oh yeah true

be more specific

[gentle grove]

@lime pivot I think you missed a large part of what I was saying earlier

Idk what the hell is going on now

[lime pivot]

I didn't read anything before I was tagged into this

[lime pivot]

because if it's calling into objc, an int is alwys an Int32, NSInteger is Int, etc. those are 1:1

[slim bramble]

Strings, mainly

Numbers too

[magic hazel]

Strings are compile time

mostly

[slim bramble]

❌

[magic hazel]

they're compile time lmao

[gentle grove]

What's that mean

[slim bramble]

They are not

[magic hazel]

strings get converted to ns strings at compile time

[slim bramble]

You can’t convert a type at compile time

[lime pivot]

a swift String might need to be converted to UTF-16 for NSString but it's possible it looks ahead and knows it has to init the string that way

[gentle grove]

utf16 🥀

[lime pivot]

but absolutely a string coming back from NSString to String is backed by a utf-16 view

[magic hazel]

i mean thats true

[magic hazel]

it's not really converted, string is nsstring

[lime pivot]

I don't know the rules for when it becomes something else, or what that something else even is. might be utf-8? idk

[magic hazel]

actually no

string is swift

string is stdlib

string isnt converted at all

string is a native type

idek what you're talking about

[slim bramble]

Me when String.convertToNSString() whatever

[magic hazel]

yes

when you

explicitly

call that

[slim bramble]

No

They’re called under the hood

[magic hazel]

that is not called on every string

they are not

[slim bramble]

Because it doesn’t need to always be called

[magic hazel]

not usually

me going to grab the swift source

[slim bramble]

However I’d argue that for iOS 6, it’s going to be called a lot

[lime pivot]

utf-16 gets used because it's way easier to build logic around. utf-8 mostly serves to get rid of null bytes so it's more efficient in being transferred around the internet etc

[lime pivot]

I'd argue it's called about the same amount on iOS 26 as well if using UIKit

[magic hazel]

yeah oksy

so uh

string is not backed by ns string

at all

maybe some apis

need ns string

but swift string

as a language feature

is not converted

at all

read the source

it isnt

https://github.com/JWIMaster/Swift-5.1.5-for-iOS-6/blob/master/stdlib/public/core/String.swift

[gentle grove]

plus AFAIK utf16 can't represent all of the Unicode space

[magic hazel]

you can convert strings to ns strings

but the string type

does not rely on anything

[slim bramble]

It can't because you can literally put an infinite amount of data inside an emoji

[slim bramble]

Can

you

stop

typing

[lime pivot]

no

[slim bramble]

like

that

[magic hazel]

no

[lime pivot]

but no encoding can fit every emoji in a single code point either

ZWJs and such

[slim bramble]

😀󠅃󠅧󠅙󠅖󠅤

There's data inside that emoji

[magic hazel]

not only that but swift implements the entire unicode standard standalone in the swift stdlib

so no conversions there either

[lime pivot]

emojipedia has been hot garbage since it got sold

[magic hazel]

real

so real

[lime pivot]

well anyway yes, it's 4 bytes utf-8, f0 9f 98 80

[slim bramble]

Because there's data inside

[magic hazel]

https://github.com/JWIMaster/Swift-5.1.5-for-iOS-6/blob/master/stdlib/public/core/Unicode.swift

🔥

unsafe stuff for you asw

[lime pivot]

d83d de00 in utf-16

[magic hazel]

found the conversions to ns string

its purely for interop

never called when pure strings are used

[lime pivot]

so it's still 2 16-bit ints

[magic hazel]

internal func _isEqual(_ other: AnyObject?) -> Int8 {
    guard let other = other else {
      return 0
    }

    if self === other {
      return 1
    }

    // Handle the case where both strings were bridged from Swift.
    // We can't use String.== because it doesn't match NSString semantics.
    let knownOther = _KnownCocoaString(other)
    switch knownOther {
    case .storage:
      return _nativeIsEqual(
        _unsafeUncheckedDowncast(other, to: __StringStorage.self))
    case .shared:
      return _nativeIsEqual(
        _unsafeUncheckedDowncast(other, to: __SharedStringStorage.self))
#if !(arch(i386) || arch(arm))
    case .tagged:
      fallthrough
#endif
    case .cocoa:
      // We're allowed to crash, but for compatibility reasons NSCFString allows
      // non-strings here.
      if _isNSString(other) != 1 {
        return 0
      }
      // At this point we've proven that it is an NSString of some sort, but not
      // one of ours.

      defer { _fixLifetime(other) }

      let otherUTF16Length = _stdlib_binary_CFStringGetLength(other)

      // CFString will only give us ASCII bytes here, but that's fine.
      // We already handled non-ASCII UTF8 strings earlier since they're Swift.
      if let otherStart = _cocoaUTF8Pointer(other) {
        //We know that otherUTF16Length is also its byte count at this point
        if count != otherUTF16Length {
          return 0
        }
        return (start == otherStart ||
          (memcmp(start, otherStart, count) == 0)) ? 1 : 0
      }

      if UTF16Length != otherUTF16Length {
        return 0
      }

      /*
       The abstract implementation of -isEqualToString: falls back to -compare:
       immediately, so when we run out of fast options to try, do the same.
       We can likely be more clever here if need be
      */
      return _cocoaStringCompare(self, other) == 0 ? 1 : 0
    }
  }

#endif //_runtime(_ObjC)
}```

[slim bramble]

I know, but swift still isn't quite fully integrated into the os

[lime pivot]

also I just discovered this, neat site https://unicode.link/

[magic hazel]

that's a valid criticism

they're working towards it though

they will get there

[magic hazel]

but it isn't there right now and that's fair enough

[slim bramble]

I don't think it can really happen without compromising either storage or one language

[magic hazel]

objc will be ditched

eventually

[lime pivot]

Swift uptake at Apple was very slow

[magic hazel]

^

until swift 5

[wooden yarrow]

the horrors of swift currently running on the Secure Enclave Processor

[slim bramble]

Don't think it will

[gentle grove]

but utf8 can represent anything given enough bytes

[lime pivot]

they didn't want to touch it till ABI stability

[magic hazel]

yep

[slim bramble]

They're gonna keep it c

thank god

[magic hazel]

yeah it will

yeah c

why would they do SEP in swift

that'd be dumb

c is the right tool for the job there

without a doubt

[wooden yarrow]

no like some of the SEP modules right now are embedded swift

you can extract them from recent fw

[magic hazel]

what?

[slim bramble]

You literally cannot fit swift sep in the sep chip

[wooden yarrow]

yeah

[magic hazel]

apparently you can

lmao

that's crazy

[slim bramble]

wtf ?

[wooden yarrow]

feel free to explore

[magic hazel]

lol

damn

even more impressive than i thought

thats actually crazy

[slim bramble]

They got to SEP 😭

[magic hazel]

so uh

what was that about

not being able to do unsafe stuff?

[slim bramble]

Are you being fr tho ?

[magic hazel]

ngl i don't like the idea of swift in sep

[slim bramble]

SEP does NOT do unsafe

[magic hazel]

SEP is low level

all low level code is unsafe in one way or another

[wooden yarrow]

still mostly in C https://blog.timac.org/2023/1019-state-of-swift-and-swiftui-ios17/

[magic hazel]

controlled unsafety

[slim bramble]

SEP is solely made to do math

not do unsafe

[wooden yarrow]

(swift fatal error)

[magic hazel]

In iOS 16, only 4 apps used the SwiftUI-based app lifecycle. In iOS 17, this figure has grown to 14 apps:

goddamn

they really took a long ass time

swiftui did get really good in ios 17 tho

to be fair

[gentle grove]

math users when the function is continuous on R

[slim bramble]

because pre iOS 16 SwiftUI is dogshit

math users when the function is NOT continuous on R

[magic hazel]

errr

[magic hazel]

its not awful

but

[gentle grove]

average unsafe user

[magic hazel]

17+ is better

i agree

much better

[slim bramble]

I said iOS 13-14-15

16 is meh

[magic hazel]

cooking

objc definitely getting replaced

for most things

[gentle grove]

how many days until doomsday

[magic hazel]

how many days until

[gentle grove]

Is 1436 too much

[magic hazel]

you don't notice

[slim bramble]

You have to figure out where!

[magic hazel]

lol

[gentle grove]

1513

[slim bramble]

that's the fun part

[gentle grove]

1516

I can't read twice

[magic hazel]

me when you put things into perspective tho

"doomsday"

💀

[gentle grove]

I see that slope

its coming soon

[magic hazel]

swift is objc basically so like

mute point

anyways

ooh okay

[gentle grove]

mute point

[magic hazel]

damn thats less than i thought

[gentle grove]

the point at where I mute this channel

[wooden yarrow]

.

[slim bramble]

Coincidently, that's also when iOS major updates started getting slower and slower

[gentle grove]

You're absolutely right!

[wooden yarrow]

You're absolutely right!

[slim bramble]

You're absolutely right!

[magic hazel]

what is this copy paste thing

i dont get it

[magic hazel]

ngl

[gentle grove]

It was funny

[magic hazel]

i have to give you that

[slim bramble]

https://tenor.com/view/people-who-don't-know-vs-people-who-know-those-who-don't-know-vs-those-who-know-gif-18075947697117816471

[gentle grove]

They wanted to relive the funny

[magic hazel]

i cannot argue with facts

ios 17 is shit

if its bcus of swift well fuck me

[gentle grove]

Is 18 latest

[wooden yarrow]

26

[slim bramble]

iOS 17 is better than iOS 18 which is better than 26

[gentle grove]

Is 26 after 18

[magic hazel]

i dont think so tho

ios 18 is better than 17

ios 17 is hot garbage

ios 17 took 3 minor updates to get stable

[gentle grove]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1266535437967691826/1418694281626914900/caption.gif

[slim bramble]

I'm maining iOS 17

good enough

coping I'm gonna get jb one day

[magic hazel]

Never

Jb is dead

17.0 not getting one is a sign of the times

[slim bramble]

@sonic totem please find CTv3

(and leave cellebrite)

🙏

[magic hazel]

Ngl there’s like no public motivation to even find kexploits anymore

Apples security is kind of insane

Especially on iPhone 15+

[slim bramble]

I mean I'm on an iPhone 12

only have to deal with SPTM and pac

which is basically done

since there's enough vulns released

iOS 17.4.1 pov

[magic hazel]

Ur on ios 17.4.1?

Rip

[slim bramble]

no

17.3.1

[magic hazel]

Rip

Why hold out

You’re in no better place

[slim bramble]

iOS 17.4.1 got like an INSANE amount of SPTM/PPL bugs fixed

[magic hazel]

Sure but there’s no kernel exploit

[slim bramble]

maybe it was .5 or .4

idr

[magic hazel]

That’s what we actually need

And there are none

It’s been 3 major versions

A first for iOS

@wooden yarrow how do you handle profile pictures in dsc

Do you have some kind of universal cache?

[wooden yarrow]

SDWebImageManager handles

[magic hazel]

Oh

I’ll just use Data URLSession and UIImage then

I nedd to make my ui propagate faster

[sonic totem]

“Only”

[sonic totem]

Never

[slim bramble]

🙄

[slim bramble]

[sonic totem]

If 17.4 got krw then maybe things would change but idek of a patched PAC bypass for 17.4

[slim bramble]

there probably will be a PAC less bypass in the 20 that released

[sonic totem]

Nope

Well I know of one

17.4 patched it

[slim bramble]

Oh

I'm good

🔥

[sonic totem]

Wait if you’re on an iPhone 12 you have PPL to deal with

But as I’ve said before, PAC is the hardest part

[slim bramble]

Isn't it SPTM

[magic hazel]

Ah I miss the good old days where you didn’t need to bypass 8 layers of security to jailbreak your device

[grim sparrow]

pac bypass? just tell it to get out the way

[magic hazel]

Real as fuck

Ngl just do that to everything

Tell iboot to take a holiday

It needs to take it’s off days

It’s overworked

Needs a break

[grim sparrow]

the interesting statistic would be users opinion on stability to overlay this

cause uhh, stability and battery life have only been getting worse over the past fwe years

[magic hazel]

That’s true

Here’s the thing though

I really doubt it’s swift

Like if I’m beinf brutally honest

For all swifts faults

I think it’s just sloppy work

I’ve noticed general bugs since like iOS 16 becoming common place

And most of the actual OS itself is still objective c

And not only that, the number of objective c binaries has increased nearly as much as swift

The overall os has jus gotten so much more bloated on the whole

[grim sparrow]

im not saying its a swift problem, i mean specifically swiftui

usability is in how well the user interface performs

[magic hazel]

Oh SwiftUI

Interesting

Possibly

[magic hazel]

Ngl I think Apple has done some poor things with their SwiftUI apps

Then again I feel yhe same about their UIKit ones

The settings app is so broken

You guys won’t experience it on modern devices but on the se 2 you really feel how many corners apple cut

[grim sparrow]

i really dont know whose fault it is though

[magic hazel]

I have a very deep seated suspicion that it’s sloppy code

[grim sparrow]

i fear a lot of the engineering effort is being placed into the AI shit and the core OS is being left behind f

[magic hazel]

Totally agree

And I don’t get it

Apple will never be an ai company

Ever

They know that

Apple fundamentally does not work as an ai company

Their core relationships with their customs and shareholders is not constructed like that of an ai company

So idk what they’re doing tbh

Just integrate ChatGPT

Let them handle ai

They’re still making big bucks

It’s not that bad

Although foundation models is super nice

[grim sparrow]

im kinda all for the ternus takeover of apple

he seems like the kind of guy who would put the core products first

[magic hazel]

Who is that

[grim sparrow]

senior vp of hardware engineering

[magic hazel]

I barely watch keynotes past 2019

[grim sparrow]

hes the one who is most likely to take over Tim

[magic hazel]

Well

Tbh

If he didn’t take core products seriously

I feel there is a real problem

💀💀

[grim sparrow]

he's the guy who has been leading the apple silicon macs

[magic hazel]

Which are fire yet shit

Grrr

[grim sparrow]

whats ur main gripes with them?

[magic hazel]

Soldered ram and storage

It’s absolutely ridiculous

[grim sparrow]

storage I would agree, memory I can see why their against it

[magic hazel]

Memory is purely because they charge a scam

[lofty juniper]

well no not really

[magic hazel]

They are running a Disney villain type scam

[grim sparrow]

i mean, not really? it allows them to get a much higher bandwidth

[magic hazel]

It’s so over priced

[lofty juniper]

memory is tied very closely to the soc

[magic hazel]

Yes

[sonic totem]

No

[magic hazel]

.

[sonic totem]

A15+

[magic hazel]

My main gripe is price

[lofty juniper]

.

[magic hazel]

Because it’s so expensive and you can’t replace it

It’s bad

[lofty juniper]

this is why they're incredibly efficient on gpu/ai

[grim sparrow]

better memory bandwidth and better thermal performance

[magic hazel]

If one of the tw things there were fixed

I would he happy

[lofty juniper]

the main bottleneck for igpus is memory bandwidth

[magic hazel]

Either make it replaceable or charge actual prices for it

Because they are laughing their way to the bank with their pricing right now

They charge so much that it isn’t even funny

It’s a downright robbery

Storage is worse

[grim sparrow]

storage is a bit of a piss take

[magic hazel]

They charge a 100% surcharge on almost all options for storage

AND it’s soldered

Storage should be m.2

It just should

[grim sparrow]

it kinda already is on the desktops

[magic hazel]

Fire profile picture btw i just no tied

Noticed*

[magic hazel]

It’s apples way of saying “fuck you”

[grim sparrow]

its just laptops where its not replacable anymore

[magic hazel]

It’s “there”

But not in a way anyone wants it

[slim bramble]

🤨

[magic hazel]

Also on desktops Apple would have been raked over the coals by enterprise if they hadn’t done something

No company is sinking that much into a machine that could become deadweight with no backup plan

(No good manager is anyways)

I certainly wouldn’t for my team

[grim sparrow]

unfrotunately everyone on the team doesn't care

the only people who care are the people buying the machines

the developers just want the insanely powerful hardware

[magic hazel]

Yep

[grim sparrow]

and the IT teams will pay for it

[magic hazel]

Yep

It’s a shit house system

I hate corporate buying policies

I cannot tell you how deeply I hate them

My MacBook Pro m4 pro still hasn’t shipped

I’m so pissed off

[magic hazel]

Ahhh but what about m5

All I saw from Apple was “ai ai ai ai”

[sonic totem]

I mean I’m not lying

[magic hazel]

Like bro I do not give a shit about ai on a 14 inch laptop are you for real

[grim sparrow]

ha

unfortunately i do

I frequently train shit on my laptop

[magic hazel]

Why are you doing that on a 14 inch laptop

That’s what the 16 inch models are for

[grim sparrow]

because I can

[magic hazel]

I guess so

[grim sparrow]

I prefer the 14" size

it has the horse power to do it

[magic hazel]

Fair enough to be honest

[grim sparrow]

why wouldn't i

[magic hazel]

I’d take 17 inch if it existed

18 inch

Apples displays are gorgeous

[grim sparrow]

unfortuinately my laptop has to actually be portable

[magic hazel]

Portable desktop yes please

The more power the better

[magic hazel]

16 inch is portable

The 15 inch I have rn is a bit small

Ngl

I mained 14 inch for so long

And then j switched to big laptops

Cannot go back

[slim bramble]

never said you were

[magic hazel]

For development they’re so nice

[grim sparrow]

its just the perfect size for me

icl

[slim bramble]

I thought SPTM was A12+, but I'm apparently mistaken

[magic hazel]

Big screen to see all my code have a simulator on the side

[grim sparrow]

my laptop is so scratched up I kinda love the aesthetic

[magic hazel]

The only thing I like about MacBooks is the hardware bar storage

Damn they make good hardware

They really nail it

[slim bramble]

Apple haters when their shitty laptop is made out of plastic

[magic hazel]

I mean that’s not entirely fair

My X1 Carbon is fantastic

But Apple makes good feeling and looking laptops yes

They charge 1.5 times what they should for them

But they are good

[sonic totem]

Nop

A12 doesn’t even have the hardware support

[grim sparrow]

I kinda love my t480

[sonic totem]

A13 idk, A14 does

[magic hazel]

Yep yhat too

Great laptop

[grim sparrow]

but its just not got the horsepower I need anymore

[magic hazel]

True

They’re a bit on the weaker side

Especially the gpu

[grim sparrow]

yup

[magic hazel]

The gpu is straight ass

Uhd 620

The vane of my existence

[slim bramble]

👍

[grim sparrow]

ha i have the nvidia gpu

[magic hazel]

That gpu has haunted me for years

[slim bramble]

So I just need to exploit PPL and kernel

[grim sparrow]

and its still pretty grim

[magic hazel]

Aw man

[magic hazel]

Yikes

What gpu is that?

[slim bramble]

@open fjord come in the thinkpad competition

@kind herald too

[open fjord]

What

Fuck I gotta do

[grim sparrow]

nvidia mx150

[slim bramble]

idk felt like pinging you

[magic hazel]

😬

Grim indeed

Yeah no doubt about it apple makes good mobile
Chipsets

Idk I feel like the idea kinda falls apart on desktop

Desktop for me is something where j don’t care about sound or size

I need raw power and I need control

[open fjord]

Fuck you French mf

[magic hazel]

And PC serves well there

Apple used to give you that

Even the 2019 Mac Pro is good enough ish

[open fjord]

Got pinged by Rootfs cuz he felt like it, time to spam 16Player.deb cuz I feel like it

[magic hazel]

Gpu wise nor really

Bruh my wifi is so spotty

[open fjord]

Jk, I love his little French ass

[open fjord]

Pause that sounds gay, he is just a really good friend

[magic hazel]

Digging the hole…

[tepid olive]

DO IT

[magic hazel]

I tried 16Player

[slim bramble]

fr

[magic hazel]

When I was using iPhone SE 1

[slim bramble]

based and best tweak you've ever used

ikr

[magic hazel]

Nah

[slim bramble]

Oh

[magic hazel]

It was crap on the se 1

[slim bramble]

SE1

[open fjord]

@slim bramble tap in leans modpack server

[slim bramble]

I can't

[magic hazel]

Wasn’t optimised for it at all

[slim bramble]

yeah

[open fjord]

Why

[slim bramble]

we donc have a SE1 to test

[magic hazel]

I’m sure it’s fine on other devices

[magic hazel]

Simulator?

[open fjord]

Test some bitches bruh

[slim bramble]

peep eotj

[tepid olive]

The size or performance?

[magic hazel]

Size

Performance is fine

[open fjord]

We not keeping ts private bruh

[tepid olive]

Thankfully I didn’t buy that

[magic hazel]

Yeah I did but I regretted it not because it’s a bad twsak idk if it is or not

It’s just clearly not made for iPhone SE 1

[slim bramble]

who gaf

[fervent frigate]

mmhz

[fervent frigate]

this is why u pirate tweaks

even if ur not gonna keep it pirated and buy it

its good to test

[manic forum]

i lied actually it was webassembly https://pixelomer.github.io/Shijima-Web (edit: so apparently this doesn't work in discord's in-app webview or in safari's private browsing but otherwise it works i swear)

i've decided that excessive r/jailbreak exposure is unhealthy, so instead i now microdose r/jailbreak on saturdays

[harsh junco]

[light owl]

@kind herald @native dune Is it working

Are you working

[native dune]

Yeah

[native dune]

Nah

[kind herald]

no

[kind herald]

no

[light owl]

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

[pearl sail]

BOO!

[kind herald]

ooh i'm so scared etc

[pearl sail]

get a job loser you are worse than that other stinky ass cat @shrewd smelt

[rocky oriole]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1373793679684272229/1383048739450781837/togif.gif

[slim bramble]

Fr

[slim bramble]

You’re genius on rjb

Therefore worse

[rocky oriole]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1373793679684272229/1383048739450781837/togif.gif

[pearl sail]

Valid

[pearl sail]

Also valid

[light owl]

@kind herald @lofty juniper Hey your so called genius is being off topic

[rocky oriole]

how did you ping me with this reply :/

why is discord pinging me for blocked messages

[light owl]

Just letting you all know I have blocked people on Discord. I want to ensure you all know I have blocked people because it is important. I am so irritated at select people that I have blocked them, I hope you know that. Did I mention I have blocked people on this server? I wonder what they're saying, I'll never know. Cuz y'know, I blocked them.

[cloud yacht]

The js func`srrinf` syntax in js is a special thing where it resolves all the variables passed to it, then splits the string and passes the variables seperatlt to the function. This means the function can handle assembling the string and as such is able to prevent sqlite injection