💽Programming Chat v2

[pastel tinsel]

I have like three of them

[full berry]

wh

what do you need 3 for 😭

[full berry]

how does your uh

[pastel tinsel]

Meshing

[full berry]

i forgot the name of it but

that chart

how does yours look like i wonder

[pastel tinsel]

Oh

[full berry]

if its like more nested than my cable management im gonna shoot myself

[pastel tinsel]

Tree

[full berry]

yyeah ig

[spare quartz]

hmmmm

so like..

would it be bad if i asked for the conv to go to technology

or would that be impeding you guys

[full berry]

oh right fair enough

[spare quartz]

thx

[rustic vine]

Sentenced to 20 minutes of #1267583072728121384

[rustic vine]

See the forum things are great except you can't search in them

[spare quartz]

true

[rustic vine]

Whoever decided that it wouldn't be worth adding search per-forum should be fired

[spare quartz]

actual worst platform design

[rustic vine]

LOL

[spare quartz]

anyways my class reader still isnt complete even though it compasses 1000 lines

i still need to do attributes

[rustic vine]

Sounds like time for a refactor

[spare quartz]

nope

all looks perfectly fine

except for a few violations in dry which i can't control beyond throwing a giant "ternary" at them

[rustic vine]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/988244934232514590/1065261671767081000/nstdsvqgeoca1.png?ex=6740873e&is=673f35be&hm=29f801637ad82f3a43c0bf6b974726787036bbeec6796ba28127d2108118253f&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=504&height=460

[rustic vine]

Did you spell that wrong

[spare quartz]

spell what wrong

[rustic vine]

Why does constraint look so weird

It's right I think

[spare quartz]

what time is it for you

you're probably in the state where words look incorrect but they're spelled fine (like Color)

[rustic vine]

11 in the morning

[spare quartz]

weird

[rustic vine]

No it looks fine now

I think the evil people were messing with me just then

It looked super weird

[spare quartz]

yeah maybe you needed a 10e2 to help you

[rustic vine]

Maybe..

[spare quartz]

oh GNAT... please get a tiny bit more smarter so i can just plug Read_Tag in these...

(it will always be either of the three)

forgot to mention each of the read functions except for read_class are all in their own files cause of how large they are

[rustic vine]

Yea I can't tell what's going on there

[rustic vine]

Is that a switch case

[spare quartz]

look up

[rustic vine]

I did

[spare quartz]

i think the case/when would be good enough signifiers

Item.Include is just setting a value in a map

[rustic vine]

Kinda? Case makes it seem like it's a single case in a switch

[spare quartz]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

some languages do it differently like kotlin or rust

[rustic vine]

Is that switching on Read_Tag

[spare quartz]

yes

[rustic vine]

Oh ok

[spare quartz]

Read_Tag is an enum

[rustic vine]

Really? It all looked like function calls to me

[spare quartz]

X'(...) creates a record of type X with the values provided in ...

[rustic vine]

Why new vs no new

[spare quartz]

new creates an access type (pointer) of something

it's called an allocator in the RM

usually these wouldn't be needed but due to the self-referential nature of a constant pool it's required here

[rustic vine]

So why don't you use new for Constant_Pool_Entry

[spare quartz]

because we don't need a pointer for that

the record itself is stored in the map

[rustic vine]

Ok wait so new gives you a pointer? What does no new do then, stack allocates?

[spare quartz]

implementation dependent but for GNAT iirc yeah

[rustic vine]

Oh huh ok

That's cool

[spare quartz]

you're advised to stay away from access types as much as you can even though they're safe to use all of the time

i'd use a Holder for indefinite types like the constant_pool records but again

[spare quartz]

self-referential nature

[rustic vine]

That's a lotta big words

Idk what they mean 😅

[spare quartz]

what are the big wrods

[rustic vine]

Whats an indefinite type here

[spare quartz]

uhh essentially a type whose size isn't defined at compile time

like an array type without bounds or a record with variants

[rustic vine]

Defined? Or meaning it's dynamically sized

So essentially just not constant sized

[rustic vine]

I don't get what you mean by this either

[spare quartz]

hold on, helping someone rn

will show what i mean in a bit

[rustic vine]

Disaster, I'm grabbing lunch

[spare quartz]

so in this record

we have this variant here

which is defined as type Utf_8_Constant_Pool_Entry is new Constant_Pool_Entry (UTF_8);

[rustic vine]

Wait, the record contains itself

[spare quartz]

a specific variant of itself yes

[rustic vine]

For utf8

[spare quartz]

because the way the specification is "elaborated" (read by the compiler, at least to my knowledge), Utf_8_Constant_Pool_Entry will not be defined when it is used there

[rustic vine]

Alright

[spare quartz]

so we have to make it an access to an incomplete type (just type Utf_8_Constant_Pool_Entry;) and then define it after Constant_Pool_Entry

[spare quartz]

and yeah heres two examples of that

[rustic vine]

Wait so you define that type first, then Constant_Pool_Entry, then redefine that type after with the proper definition?

[rustic vine]

Oh alr I see

[spare quartz]

yeah

[rustic vine]

Neat

[spare quartz]

types are also "frozen" at a certain point (i.e., you're not allowed to add stuff to it like functions after a point)

but i still need to learn more about freezing + elaboration order so i'm not the best source of info

[rustic vine]

Interesting

Cool language. Weird syntax though 🥲

[spare quartz]

surprisingly comfortable to write in after a while ill admit

oh yeah i ned to fix these later

[rustic vine]

Yeah personally it used to be really tough switching between languages but now that I do it so often for school work and personal projects it's gotten significantly easier

Kinda related but not really lol, sorry

[spare quartz]

no i relate to that dw

ive just settled into lua/ada/kotlin rn though

[rustic vine]

Seems like a good balance

[rustic vine]

Zeux outta nowhere dropped math.lerp like yesterday lol

[spare quartz]

oh yeah theres more nuance to this with things called storage pools but i have absolutely no idea what those are at the moment

[spare quartz]

whos zeux

[rustic vine]

Former lead luau engineer

He was at roblox for like 17 something years

[spare quartz]

woa

is this math.lerp thing an rfc?

or is it out

[rustic vine]

He's the reason luau became open source

[rustic vine]

It was, he came outta nowhere and just dropped an implementation pr lol

[spare quartz]

yooo sick

i went to look up more info and

😭

[rustic vine]

Also did ncg for it lol

Goat

[rustic vine]

🙏

https://github.com/luau-lang/luau/pull/1608

[spare quartz]

lets goooo

[rustic vine]

Yep, and ncg should be a thing for it soon https://github.com/luau-lang/luau/pull/1609

[spare quartz]

OH native code gen

took me a bit

[rustic vine]

Yes

[spare quartz]

ughhh reminds me

ive made a (fourth) class reader ... do i make a third jvm

[rustic vine]

Disaster

[spare quartz]

excessive "free" time*

first jvm corrupted data a lot
second jvm errored a lot due to unfinished features (but was much much more safer as every table had both mutability/bounds/type checking built in)

third jvm might be where things work...

[rustic vine]

Sounds like you ought to use buffers

They added buffer.readbits

And writebits

[spare quartz]

NO WAY

[rustic vine]

Yep

I'm telling you luau is kinda balling. I just wish the new typechecker was better and string requires would be settled on

Oh and I hope we get an actual package manager

[spare quartz]

the first jvm was written like

almost 3 years ago

so all i had back then was like string.pack/unpack 😭

[rustic vine]

LOL

[spare quartz]

never got real Long support too cause

everythings a double n all (and idk how to write bignums)

[rustic vine]

Buffers change a lot

Since shilling sci hub in that new channel wasn't effective I'll shill sci hub here

It's awesome stuff

[spare quartz]

what new channel

[rustic vine]

Idk it showed up at the top of my channels list here

#science

Idk why it's there

[spare quartz]

oh those

[rustic vine]

Suggested channels

Wth is that

[spare quartz]

idk why they didnt just make more interest threads

[rustic vine]

Cooked

But I'll just shill sci hub here instead then

[spare quartz]

if i get back to lua dev soon ill def check those out for networking/file stuffs

actually just reminded me

first/second jvms used simulated overflowing in order to remain within the jvm specification...

read/writebits might make me not have to do that!!

[rustic vine]

Yea they overflow as you'd expect

I know cause um

Yea...

[spare quartz]

🤨

[rustic vine]

yea..

cython is super cursed

[spare quartz]

HUH

WTF IS HE DOING HERE

[rustic vine]

I mean tbf the java JNI stuff is just as cursed

that stuff is absolutely awful to write

and maintain

and

do anything with

[spare quartz]

very true

[rustic vine]

hes cooking up minecraft 2

in JS

[spare quartz]

😭

[rustic vine]

don't worry

[rustic vine]

instead of sending objects people just end up sending the fields as args directly loool

cause jobjects are so annoying to work with on the c side

[spare quartz]

gonna be so honest i actually ran into the same issue with the lua jvms 😭

[rustic vine]

huh

[spare quartz]

granted its easier to work with since it's lua but objects are so opaque (like strings for example, you have to index at least 7 tables to get to the content of one)

[rustic vine]

im curious actually how was perf on them

well ok wait

step back a bit

[spare quartz]

ehh pretty okay

[rustic vine]

just a jvm right

so you feed it bytecode

[spare quartz]

i never did any instruction speed tests on them without running into an error down the line due to corruption/hitting an unfinished block

despair

[spare quartz]

yeah heres what prepares a CLASS method for execution

(.CreateBufferStack is just a buffer w/ a cursor)

and heres the execution part

[rustic vine]

varargs being on the stack

the geniusness of this cannot be understated

[spare quartz]

yeah i was abt to comment on that

probably modified during testing

[spare quartz]

despair 2

[rustic vine]

I think you have an unhealthy obsession with while task.wait() do

[spare quartz]

no its normal pwomise

[rustic vine]

embrace the heartbeat connection instead

[spare quartz]

❌

:x

[full berry]

what r u working on

[spare quartz]

this is old code im just sending over cause its interesting to look at again

[rustic vine]

nothing good

👍

[spare quartz]

gonna be honest the reason i wrote jvm 2 was cause i wrote a class file reader for fun

then decided to spend my weekend on writing another jvm for it

[rustic vine]

I've been following a lossless luau parser written in luau's progress recently

its whole point is to be super fast

super cool project I think you'd be interested

[spare quartz]

https://github.com/Bread-Experts-Group/file_formats_java_class/tree/main/src

heres what im actually working on (separate)

[spare quartz]

whats it name

[rustic vine]

https://github.com/jackdotink/luaup/tree/main

sorry was finding the link

check https://github.com/jackdotink/luaup/blob/main/lossless/cst.luau

[pastel tinsel]

huh

[spare quartz]

CENTRAL STANDARD TIME?

[rustic vine]

LOL

but yeah its super neat stuff

[pastel tinsel]

oh that’s cool

[rustic vine]

and its fast

[spare quartz]

waow thats a lot of types

[rustic vine]

lol

it crashes luau-lsp

[spare quartz]

i can relate

[rustic vine]

they haven't pushed local changes for a while though

[spare quartz]

😭

~30 lines for a constant pool in lua and 361 for one in ada.....

then again the one in ada is consolidated

[rustic vine]

dynamic require

ok that casing has to be a crime

what is that

I think any other choice would've been more sensible

[spare quartz]

its a good name, sir 👍

[rustic vine]

readu8, read_u8, ReadU8, readU8, Readu8

nvm some of those are bad too

the first 2 are good

[spare quartz]

readU8 🤢

[rustic vine]

lol

[spare quartz]

ughhh theres so much stream protection in this jvm i kinda wanna turn into its own library

but idk when i'd use it

[spare quartz]

fixed 👍

[rustic vine]

never because checks are boring and we're part of the blazingly fast club here

[spare quartz]

🤢

scripters for safety critical games 💪

[spare quartz]

code didnt error on the first try 💪

hell yea

[spare quartz]

oops

[rustic vine]

oh, cause they pushed a complete rewrite to a diff repo (new name)
https://github.com/jackdotink/poke/tree/main/pokeless

[spare quartz]

i love debugging

[rustic vine]

whole lotta text

[spare quartz]

i had to do away with the timers cause they were just too extreme

application does 600 class files in under 100 ms eyeballing though

[timid quartz]

write it in asm you can do it faster

[lavish dove]

mine is 10.0.0.1

well my old one was

[spare quartz]

nyo

[full berry]

nyo??

[spare quartz]

not bad even though this includes IO/print time too

[spare quartz]

crying rn

[lavish dove]

lmao

[spare quartz]

6 unique errors to go through

[spare quartz]

i love ada code

I FINALLY FIXED IT ALL

HAHAHAHHAHAA

[full berry]

I THOUGHT I HAD IT ALL TOGETHERRRR
https://cdn.astrohweston.xyz/u/06cf2ab4-bda9-4924-8f5a-3996e768bf4e.png

[spare quartz]

cheap!!!

[flint belfry]

im buying every astrohweston domain in existence and making it redirect to a certain page

[spare quartz]

why .

[flint belfry]

because i can

[spare quartz]

RICH

[spare quartz]

ASS

[flint belfry]

im not

[spare quartz]

5 billion dollars

[flint belfry]

in debt

[spare quartz]

5 billion

THEY MADE THE CHINESE GUY BLOW UP?

[flint belfry]

WHAT

[spare quartz]

okay so

therees this guy anmed Chinese in this scp sl server and

we convertedf him into a chaos insurgetn and he had a pinkl cand y (makes youo blow uip)

[flint belfry]

what does any of that mean 😭😭😭

[spare quartz]

nya

[flint belfry]

EW

EW

EWWWWWWWWW

[spare quartz]

:3

[flint belfry]

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

[spare quartz]

rust app try NOT to use these two words

[rustic vine]

That's gotta be racially motivated

[spare quartz]

idk if it was

scp-079s name that round was literally just chinese text

[lavish dove]

I also stole a traffic light it's so great how simple they are to take off the rope young

[spare quartz]

they're massive 😭

how

[flint belfry]

What.

that is an image from my local technology store

i did not steal a traffic light

[lavish dove]

Oh

[spare quartz]

yaeh kade bought one

with his 1 billion dollars

[lavish dove]

I mean it's 3 lights maybe a heater and a painted plastic/metal cast shell

[flint belfry]

NO I DID N

[lavish dove]

Can I have a million

[spare quartz]

this you?

[flint belfry]

I AM NOT THE FUCKING MONOPLOY MAN

I AM NOT RICH

I AM BROKE

[proud creek]

Github edu 🔥🔥

[lavish dove]

GitHub said my student id was worth jack shit

[spare quartz]

weird

i submitted my school email and it was accepted fine

[flint belfry]

what do you get with github edu

[spare quartz]

Free stuff

[flint belfry]

like

[spare quartz]

For example you can own the entire professional intellij line of apps for completely free

Usually thatd cost like a few hundred dollars a month

[flint belfry]

i have no idea what tha tis 😭

oh

[spare quartz]

Coding stuff

Probably other vendors who support it too

Idk all of them though

[spare quartz]

q``````````````````````````````

woah

i didnt know i had those in my messages

[proud creek]

`

[proud creek]

yeah we should kill you

[proud creek]

what does that mean

[spare quartz]

i hate writing code

[proud creek]

so real

[spare quartz]

trying not to think about the other thing happening in my life rn though so

its all i got

[proud creek]

oh

[spare quartz]

mmm

made it work up to JDK 6

but i think its starting to suffer from memory problems with 17,145 classes

or maybe its an I/O issue

yeah def an I/O issue

JDK 7 time

[spare quartz]

7 constant pool entries done, just need to do attributes... but first, an alignment test

hell yea

perfect run

[spare quartz]

8 SODA CAN ROBBERY COMPLETEEEE

[lyric mesa]

it's very simple to make someone ragdoll in qserf
require(game.ServerScriptService.functions.get_character)(workspace.Real_N3bu14).effects:set({{effect_id="ragdolled",stack_count=1,strength=1,created_at=os.clock(),source={kind="unknown"}}})

(no you cannot do it with humanoid.platformstand)

[spare quartz]

admin abuse alert

🚨

[lyric mesa]

huh??????

[spare quartz]

unconsenual ragdolling is a violation of california penal code 502.1 subsection 59A

[timid quartz]

I believe you'll find that meowing without a permit is violating Section 20 of the Offences Against the Person Act of 1861

[timid quartz]

https://youtube.com/shorts/-TMdron2JhY?si=su7Vx5c7rM0AawtP

[spare quartz]

Genuinely what’s the reasoning behind using a linked list

[spare quartz]

im free

one part where ada makes it 1000 times easier than the lua counterpart

[rustic vine]

What does that do?

[spare quartz]

i assume you're asking about the case x is part?

[rustic vine]

Allocates 63 keys in a map?

That are all null?

[rustic vine]

I'm asking what part you meant by easier

[spare quartz]

no that's matching for if Frame_Type is within that range

[rustic vine]

Oh huh

[spare quartz]

this is a variant record declaration (the case x is) which allows us to set different fields for different discriminators (Frame_Type here)

finished version of that recrod

[rustic vine]

Oh how interesting

So it's like a switch with match expressions

[spare quartz]

yeah

you can put fields above the case for fields whichll be present for every discriminator

or add a when others => branch which acts as a default for nothing matching any of the specified branches

(all cases in ada must be matched by a branch, or there must be an others branch)

[spare quartz]

also thats just the specification so it's not really "easier" but

i prefer that over this

[proud creek]

Oh yeah that looks much better

[spare quartz]

impl time

[timid quartz]

more efficient for some ops

like adding to front is O(1) since you just make a new head and point it's next pointer at the old head

vs an array where you have to shift every other element

[spare quartz]

oh i never think about using arrays for dynamic structures

[spare quartz]

understandable but surely theres better structures that can do this and more

even if they're "heavier" memory-wise

[timid quartz]

well that was just one example

sometimes a linked list just lends itself more logically

[spare quartz]

also holy shit my specification is 750 lines long

[timid quartz]

like for example for the constant pool resolution idea that I had, I tried to use an array of linked lists

I did an array because there's only so many entries in the constant pool and you can make a fixed size array

but it's harder to tell how many other entries are gonna reference a given entry

so that's why I did the linked list part

so editing it would be way more flexible

[spare quartz]

i threw an Indefinite_Vector with some accesses in it as a solution for mine, i think that's something like a linked list internally

alsot hats a bunch of types

ughhh

this is gonna be such a pain

[spare quartz]

wait i never asked

what version of the JDK are you basing off again

6?

[timid quartz]

6

I need to go back through and redo the pool resolution

[spare quartz]

it took me a bit to figure out mine since there were holes in it at first

i went with storing complete stuff first in the map, then ran through everything in incomplete map using a special variant record with just indices

[timid quartz]

my idea is the array of linked lists

each array index represents a possible index being referenced

if we detect an incomplete reference, we do stuff[wanted_index].append(index_that_wants)

although honestly what I need to do is use pointers in the struct rather than copying by value

[spare quartz]

oh yeah thanks for reminding me

apparently zig aliases all arguments by default?

[timid quartz]

wdym

[spare quartz]

you know what the aliased prefix is in ada right

[timid quartz]

no

[spare quartz]

here

[timid quartz]

ahhh

so zig shoves all the args in memory by default

[spare quartz]

heres godbolt showing the difference

i still don't fully understand it but basically compiler has to do extra work

:<

[timid quartz]

lol

[spare quartz]

apparently they've had a PR to add documentation for it since 2018

sorry not a PR

https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/1521

just the issue

[spare quartz]

https://github.com/ziglang/zig/issues/1108

[spare quartz]

rust up here has had a bit of the same issues like zig

it appears to be a problem stemming from llvm

miscompiled code https://stackoverflow.com/a/57259339

[rustic vine]

I blame your choice of casing and the -> tab characters here

[spare quartz]

i blame you

[rustic vine]

You got me

re: linked lists, I find myself using std::vector almost exclusively in cpp, because the other stl containers are just so terrible

[spare quartz]

dude

i think math people are a buncha nerds

[spare quartz]

https://youtu.be/DG-VLezRkYQ

[spare quartz]

https://fixupx.com/f4micom/status/1879245916517081556

[spare quartz]

til
rust users hate zig users and vice versa
rust users are also c haters but zig users are c lovers

[timid quartz]

hardcore rustaceans are also Haskell stans

[spare quartz]

im watching a rust guy rn ... help

💔

rust copied our (A => 5, B => C, others => <>) syntax

[timid quartz]

nuh uh he's technically invoking the default trait there

[spare quartz]

i knowww

thats basically the equivelent though

uh oh

ive made misalignment

[timid quartz]

teehee

[spare quartz]

unfortuantely idk how

[rustic vine]

blame cosmic bit flip

and move on

[spare quartz]

gee

lot of bitflips today

[rustic vine]

must've been that solar flare

nevermind. I blame california for being on fire

[rustic vine]

casting parts of that array into struct pointers is a little cursed, but I can see that having a use case when packing buffers

[spare quartz]

i didnt watch that video i just sent it here for later viewing

what was ini t

[rustic vine]

ubsan asan doing nothing about it is a little scary, as he says

cause it is UB

[rustic vine]

scary and spooky code

#include <stdio.h>

typedef struct {
  int x;
  int y;
} Foo;

int f(Foo* foo1, Foo* foo2) {
  foo1->y = 42;
  foo2->x = 99;
  return foo1->y;
}

int main() {
  int arr[3] = {0};
  Foo* foo1 = (Foo*)&arr[0];
  Foo* foo2 = (Foo*)&arr[1];
  int output = f(foo1, foo2);
  printf("OUTPUT: %d\n", output);
}```

what do you think this prints?

[spare quartz]

looking at it gives me a headache

so no idea

[rustic vine]

LOL ok

I'll save the summary of that video for when you want to figure that out

cause thats essentially the entire video

the guy likes drinking water

too

[rustic vine]

its a pretty cool video though

[spare quartz]

OUTPUT: 42 ?

huh yeah

somethings really getting messed up

[rustic vine]

look a little closer, what does foo2->x really point to?

[spare quartz]

outside of arr?

Foo is 8 bytes long on a standard 64 bit system, arr[3] (which i assume means 3 bytes)...

xxxxy[yyy]
^
outside

[rustic vine]

its an int array

[spare quartz]

oh

oh i totalyl missed that

[rustic vine]

lol

[spare quartz]

im not familiar with this syntax (Foo*)&arr[0]; what does it do

[rustic vine]

@timid quartz same question for you

oh

hes here

[timid quartz]

@spare quartz https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-pico-2/

$5

[spare quartz]

yeah i have one in frront of me

silly

[rustic vine]

raspberry pi at a sensible price??

unbelievable

[spare quartz]

i plan to make mine a bluetooth dongle but thats for later

[spare quartz]

anyways yeah

[rustic vine]

I would buy the pi 5 if I hadn't bought like 4 orange pi 5s when pis were outta stock

[timid quartz]

99?

Assuming it packs

[rustic vine]

casts arr[0] into a foo pointer

[spare quartz]

... so a null pointer

[rustic vine]

the funny thing is ||its both 99 and 42|| (thats the answer btw atp, if you don't wanna see it yet)

||its 99 with no optimization, 42 in O3||

[rustic vine]

nope

its just a pointer to the beginning of the struct in memory

or, thats what its treated as

[timid quartz]

Yeah but ||because both foo1->y and foo2->x reference the same spot, the foo2->x assignment overwrites it no?||

[spare quartz]

you guys dont need to censor it i dont care about spoilers

[rustic vine]

alr

[spare quartz]

i knew something about the sizes would cause misalignment and aliasing of some bytes but

[rustic vine]

they do reference the same spot, but c compilers in O3 will optimize the return to a constant 42

[spare quartz]

im not the greatest at C

[rustic vine]

instead of reading the pointer again

which is why its 99 with no optimization

and 42 in O3

idk about O1/2, prolly the same thing?

[spare quartz]

o1 does 42 yeah

[rustic vine]

yep

essentially c compilers have a rule that you cannot read and write to separate objects unless you know they are either distinct types (completely disjoint in memory) or they are the exact same object

that rule exists so that it can make that optimization

so it assumes foo2->x = 99 cannot possibly have effect on foo1

so the return just becomes mov eax, 42

[spare quartz]

weird

[rustic vine]

yeah, its interesting

[rustic vine]

theres a flag related to it called no-strict-aliasing

thats not in any spec though, so only gcc and clang have it

[timid quartz]

Ahh gotta love O3

[spare quartz]

is C under any specification body i forget

also hold

        Checking .\classes\classes007_080\com\sun\xml\internal\messaging\saaj\soap\impl\HeaderImpl.class ...FAIL. 2382785355

[rustic vine]

yep, looks like even O2 will do it

[spare quartz]

https://fixupx.com/static_assert_0/status/1852187549747270126

read something similar today

this was Ofast though which is much more aggressive

[rustic vine]

ye

oh, body?

like analogous to the cpp committee?

[spare quartz]

like ANSI

[rustic vine]

yeah ANSI C

[spare quartz]

oh cool

[rustic vine]

lol, Ofast

Ofast allows the compiler to violate the C standard iirc

[spare quartz]

It turns on -ffast-math, -fallow-store-data-races and the Fortran-specific -fstack-arrays, unless -fmax-stack-var-size is specified, and -fno-protect-parens

[timid quartz]

but can clang compile Ada

Didn't think so

It's GNAT not CNAT

[spare quartz]

uh nuh uh

apples to oranges

[timid quartz]

gcc is just better

[spare quartz]

i think aera has a brain worm

[timid quartz]

clang is just a frontend for LLVM

[spare quartz]

🧠

[timid quartz]

which we already know sucks

[spare quartz]

tbf

https://github.com/AdaCore/gnat-llvm

[timid quartz]

gross

use your own codegen

[spare quartz]

WE DO

its called gcc

[timid quartz]

I KNOW

[spare quartz]

ugh!!

[timid quartz]

But then what is THIS ABOMINATION

[spare quartz]

why dont YOU use your own codegen

mr crabby patty

[spare quartz]

This is an Ada compiler based on LLVM, connecting the GNAT front-end to the LLVM code generator to generate LLVM bitcode for Ada and to** open the LLVM ecosystem to Ada.**

[timid quartz]

gross

[spare quartz]

llvm rust 🤢

[timid quartz]

I wish rust would have its own codegen

[spare quartz]

gcc rust 😁

[timid quartz]

I can't wait for when zig eventually does

[spare quartz]

(coming in... actually not that long)

[timid quartz]

wait fr

[spare quartz]

yeah iirc GNU is working on supporting rust

[timid quartz]

[spare quartz]

https://github.com/Rust-GCC/gccrs

heres this project if its of any interest

[timid quartz]

who needs IR

[spare quartz]

make your owen compiler ...

for cs..

[timid quartz]

I WILL BE

IM IN A COMPILERS CLASS RN

[spare quartz]

rmn.. do it..

[spare quartz]

this feels interesting

in ada its just type Positive is Integer range 1 .. Integer'Last; but

theres no way of doing the bounds skip like in new_unchecked

unless you formally verify with SPARK that it can't be broken

[timid quartz]

(The actual implementation in std uses an unsafe block)

[spare quartz]

i think this is cool that you can define your own restrictions like that through coed

but it still leaves an entry point with unsafe

i suppose the same argument could be made with ada using Unchecked_Conversion

but that'll still fail when the bounds goes to check it

[timid quartz]

I mean you don’t always have to mark this

If you’re able to handle the unsafe ops correctly then your entire function doesn’t have to be marked unsafe

[spare quartz]

just irks me a little

god i took too much sugar

[timid quartz]

Notice how main isn’t unsafe

And if you try to be funny…

That’s basically the thing that happens when Ada’s Unchecked_Conversion fails

[spare quartz]

yeah no i understand this

i just don't like the existence of new_unchecked in general

[timid quartz]

Yeah I doubt many people actually use it

It’s just a super lazy way around the unwrap

[spare quartz]

i wonder if there'll ever be a possibility of unsafe being removed from rust ever

[timid quartz]

Even the compiler kinda discourages you from using unsafe blocks so I really doubt anyone would use new_unchecked

[timid quartz]

Probably not, unsafe still has to be used for stuff like MMIO, using GPIO pins, and other stuff like that

The goal is to make safe wrappers around unsafe stuff

[spare quartz]

yeah but it just feels

... again ... short sighted

i know the ada way of checking everything at every step of the way isn't too applicable to the rust thought process

but there must be some way to do those operations while keeping program integrity

[timid quartz]

I’d have to disagree, I think it was deliberately done that way to visually mark areas where you’re doing things that could result in UB

[spare quartz]

yeah i'm just used to the former here

[timid quartz]

Letting the programmer know “hey you need to know what you’re doing and the program’s integrity relies on you here”

[timid quartz]

It’s harder to do that when you start actually interacting with the hardware, and even then there are still restrictions in unsafe Rust and you’ll probably end up in the same spot as Ada where you crash

[spare quartz]

it really matters on how you crash

[timid quartz]

Well you saw this

[spare quartz]

i'd assume rust is on par with ada even during unsafe ops where it recognizes a problem and panics instead of whatever C does

[timid quartz]

I can’t speak to other parts but

I’d imagine in most situations rust will panic

[spare quartz]

i think i'm just on another uh

whats the word

philosophical debate instead of a solid problem

[timid quartz]

There are ways to make rust just segfault normally and I’m sure you can do that with ada too but you have to really go out of your way

[timid quartz]

I can see how it’s nice to not have to deal with unsafe blocks but I also like the delineation between safe and unsafe that rust has

[spare quartz]

its almost like the exception v data argument we had a bit ago

[timid quartz]

I wonder if there’s a way to program a Teensy 4.1 in Ada

[spare quartz]

except in reverse

[spare quartz]

uhhh probably?

i was looking at the alire index and we've actually got a nice little embedded HAL set of libraries going

looking thru an ada journal from 2012

looks like someone got it working with the AVR set of compilers

[timid quartz]

Hmm

How does one set that up

[spare quartz]

alire toolchain --select

itt

looks like the teensy 4.1 uses an arm cortex m7

so youll probably find use out of this alire crate

[spare quartz]

oops

should've highlighted 4.

3. might be useful too

[timid quartz]

Me when I use gcc-avr and compile c

[spare quartz]

avr-gcc*

[timid quartz]

Die

[spare quartz]

:<

[spare quartz]

okay lesson learned

'Input in aggregates MAY NOT be in order

perfect

just gotta do annotations

also im not sure how but this is telling me its performing doubly as well as it was with java 6 code

... ;3

reading the JVMS 7 date as 2013

i might have an idea on what to do

[spare quartz]

LETS GOOO

[spare quartz]

publishing it to the indxe rn

[spare quartz]

its over

[timid quartz]

[spare quartz]

naw its okay*

i got it resolved

:3c

[timid quartz]

[spare quartz]

DIE

now this is the real nerdy stuff

HOORAY

ada is now 1% java

[spare quartz]

*At the time these lines are written and from the perspective of AdaCore, A&D is still the largest consumer of Ada today and covers about 70% of the market. *

man it really IS a mic language

(a&d is aerospace & defense)

[timid quartz]

not surprised why the community is so nonexistent

[spare quartz]

i find it funny in that post they also talk about how

they're pracitcally the only competitor and willing to keep it that way

but if they ever disappeared things would be fine

[spare quartz]

TIL

macos does not support 128 bit floats

[rustic vine]

alternatively, the community is all top secret 😅

[spare quartz]

this is trrue

[rustic vine]

disaster

[spare quartz]

💀

[rustic vine]

they have links to the top secret stuff?? wow, please share on war thunder forums

wow you can even make a bridge with ada

don't tell civil engineers this

[spare quartz]

what is an assault bridge though

do you hit people over the head with it

[rustic vine]

I think so. It's heavy

heres what im thinking of

[spare quartz]

some of the links are broken due to age

https://www.adacore.com/press/gnat-pro-provides-multi-language-support-aboard-raytheons-ssds

but this is still up

frrom 2007 👍

LFG

ADA AC!!!!!

[rustic vine]

HVAC and CAD, which is it? make up your mind

[spare quartz]

Byron Informatik is dedicated to software development and consulting for engineering companies in the HVAC (Heating Ventilation and Air Conditioning) sector and for companies doing facility management. Its clientele are from companies around the world, including from Germany and Switzerland, and will soon include many more European countries.

so the program itself is CAD but tehe company does HVAC

[rustic vine]

the only CAD I know is computer aided design

what CAD are we talking about here

[spare quartz]

3d printed ac tubes

[rustic vine]

huh

and what exactly does CAD stand for

[spare quartz]

cats are da coolest

[rustic vine]

oh ok

[rustic vine]

great, it just says CAD everywhere

[rustic vine]

wait, it is this cad

[spare quartz]

this article is from 1999 as far as i can tell so

[rustic vine]

what in the world is HVAC CAD

[spare quartz]

prboably

[rustic vine]

computer aided design for hvac

prolly actually, that sounds sane

[rustic vine]

they had HVAC back then?? wow!

[spare quartz]

just talking about the integrity of this source

i cant be certain if any of the information is still applicable

[rustic vine]

Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.

[spare quartz]

*In the near future, the application will be ported to other Unix workstations and PCs using Solaris. *

nvm

they did not add more favorites

[timid quartz]

we should move all of these to Rust

using tractor

https://www.darpa.mil/research/programs/translating-all-c-to-rust

[spare quartz]

no

keep your grubby paws off my Ada.

[timid quartz]

claws* tyvm

[spare quartz]

bro has a rustsona

😭

[timid quartz]

no that's literally

the mascot

[spare quartz]

im talking about the correction crabs for brains

[timid quartz]

yeah and

rustaceans don't have paws

[spare quartz]

so you’re all crab furries????

also im so mad looking at the server membership count for rust

12,600 people 😭

meanwhile the adacore gap server has like

… 40

MEOWWW

MROWMEOEMROWMOEMWW

[timid quartz]

nonexistent community

[spare quartz]

nuh

[timid quartz]

succumb to the rust mind virus

[spare quartz]

it’s just that

900 year old Ada programmers hate or don’t know about discord

😭

[timid quartz]

yeah they're all on mailing lists

you should program in more rust though...

[spare quartz]

join us on comp.ada 💪

[spare quartz]

okay you too in Ada then

how many crates have you made btw

[timid quartz]

uh like

1

lmao

[spare quartz]

wh

[timid quartz]

and it's not really maintained

[spare quartz]

:<

what is it

[timid quartz]

most of my stuff are executables and not libraries

[spare quartz]

I’ve got a whole chain of libraries i wanna make

[timid quartz]

https://crates.io/crates/rustblox

[spare quartz]

Ohhhh

Yanked

[timid quartz]

yeah I pulled the 0.4.0 version

[spare quartz]

I’ve got SE 7 on the index, next i wanna add JAR support, EXE support, SE 9 vendor specific class store support…

[spare quartz]

Do you plan to use open cloud APIs for new stuff

[timid quartz]

idk I wanna get better support for the normal stuff

but there's also this

[spare quartz]

Right

[timid quartz]

but to do either...I actually have to work on it

which...I haven't been

[spare quartz]

Forgot there’s like 5 billion rust devs making everything.,,

Mmm

I should make a line up of API stuff for Ada…

Actually no idk how id do that very well

Since… GNAT.Sockets…

[timid quartz]

well

you have the http thing

just use that

[spare quartz]

And I’d imagine depending on AWS would be massively heavy

[spare quartz]

yeah but that’s practically just reading and writing the raw messages

Not whatever you guys have

[timid quartz]

I mean

it gets down to that at some point too

[spare quartz]

I also have to finish my TLS implementation

Since it’s got up to the encrypted negotiation part of which idk how to program

Byteflippers, checksum, file_format_java_class…

Mmmm … JVM or ZIP reader….

I’m looking at what you guys have for JVM stuff

Not very good results :<

[timid quartz]

I mean

a lot of it might not be on crates.io

[spare quartz]

I would search on GitHub but I can’t on my phone rn

https://crates.io/crates/class_file

This is interesting

[timid quartz]

then just use google lol

[spare quartz]

Last update was 6 yrs ago though

[spare quartz]

Boorinnnggg

[timid quartz]

well yeah..."basically feature complete"

no update necessary

[spare quartz]

You can’t be feature complete with class files though

There’s a new JVMS every 6 months

Unless you plan to stick with SE 11

I can’t see the code but hopefully it has versioning limits

https://crates.io/crates/rjvm is also cool

More modern

Different philosophy though

https://crates.io/crates/mokapot

This reminds me

Need 2 make a static analyzer for bytecode to ensure correctness

https://github.com/andreabergia/rjvm

[timid quartz]

idk

kinda busy

not a lot of programming ideas in general

[spare quartz]

Unfortunate

[timid quartz]

Not really any motivation lol

[spare quartz]

I’m hitting a lot of complexity walls personally where I’m overestimating my ability

At least I’m learning through it though

[spare quartz]

This really is a toy

The urge in the back of my head telling me to write a Java compiler

[spare quartz]

https://youtu.be/A4cKi7PTJSs

[spare quartz]

blazingly fast

[timid quartz]

C needs to be a third person

[spare quartz]

permission to send an image really quickly

[timid quartz]

ugh dm me

[spare quartz]

AAAAA

[timid quartz]

read first idot

[spare quartz]

https://crates.io/crates/std3

[spare quartz]

class reader can apparently function in embedded environments!

okay so its an issue with misalignment in lvt

thats not good

[spare quartz]

https://fixupx.com/notch/status/1879635187572838836

(he's gonna use lwjgl! a prebuilt game library!!!)

[flint belfry]

ok but that comparison is really good holy shit

[rustic vine]

been doing some research into color stuff and found oklab, it's super cool because its designed to be a perceptually uniform color space

also thinking about the best way to pick a sequence of colors that are perceptually as distinct as possible from one another

to me theres essentially 2 different design goals, I either want a sequence of N colors, or I want to be able to continuously generate colors (arbitrary N)

stack overflow seems to think, if N is small enough, the best bet is just a hand-picked list of colors, lol

and otherwise it links like 4 research papers into this topic - didn't expect it to be so hard to pick distinct colors

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/470690/how-to-automatically-generate-n-distinct-colors

if anyone has any ideas or prior research/experience with this topic, would love to hear from u

[spare quartz]

mnan

it is difficult to get a connection up

[rustic vine]

agreed

[wintry fable]

Tbf, that's mainly a binder to OpenGL, though the audio system was basically just a random library he found and used, and ofc he's using Java which is pretty high level, it doesn't even compile to the machine, it compiles to its own wack-ass interpreted intermediate language

Java's weird

[spare quartz]

:<

[rustic vine]

That's just bytecode

[spare quartz]

dont insult my baby language

[rustic vine]

All interpreted languages do this

Java is weird for other reasons

[spare quartz]

but lwjgl is a composite of libraries, lemme get the binder it sues

also i just realized you're gm... welcome back... again

[rustic vine]

Idk who u are sorry lol

[wintry fable]

Yes it is I, I don't really play Roblox or do stuff in it at this point but DT invited me to a project and I decided why not join QS

[rustic vine]

Who's DT

[spare quartz]

recurrent member who's done dev stuff here and there

[wintry fable]

DTrainsMan, FAAS guy

[rustic vine]

Oh cool

Well hi

[rustic vine]

Yeah idk what is either 😅

[spare quartz]

awww nondescript, just their own......

[spare quartz]

qserf thing i dont know too much about either

[rustic vine]

Oh ok

[spare quartz]

i think its a intercom/vox thing

[wintry fable]

The voice announcements

Like the DMR ones

He voiced that

Unless they changed it

[rustic vine]

Oh ok

[rustic vine]

You did mean bytecode yes? If so, all interpreted languages do indeed have that

[wintry fable]

Yeah

[rustic vine]

Luau has its own bytecode too

[wintry fable]

Though Java just doesn't act interpreted I guess, you still need to compile it n such

Yeah

[spare quartz]

it is interpreted yes

[rustic vine]

Well, compile to btyecode, yeah

[spare quartz]

most JVMs have a just in time compiler for performance though

[rustic vine]

You have to do that for all interpreted languages

[wintry fable]

Yeah

[spare quartz]

but how fitting... im working on a component of one right now

[rustic vine]

You have to compile luau to bytecode too

[wintry fable]

Very nice

And yeah ik, I've seen some of that

[rustic vine]

Actually I recently learned about DUPCLOSURE and thought that was super cool

I'll send an example

local N = 64
local arr = {}
for i = 1, N do
  local function a()

  end
  arr[i] = a
end

local eq = true
for i = 1, N do
  if i ~= 1 then
    if arr[i] ~= arr[i - 1] then
      eq = false
      break
    end
  end
end

print(eq)

would yall expect this to print true or false?

[spare quartz]

false since all functions are inherently different

unless they changed something with dupclosure you're talking abt

[rustic vine]

It's true in O1 and above!

[spare quartz]

neat

[rustic vine]

Yep, in O0, when that local function a is made, NEWCLOSURE is emitted, which creates a new closure (distinct function)

But in O1 it's able to tell a doesn't capture any upvalues

So it emits DUPCLOSURE instead, reusing the same closure

So all the references end up being to the same function

[spare quartz]

local function a()
   print(N)
end

so i'd imagine this variant of a would not be copied?

[wintry fable]

Honestly I do really like Luau, just having typing makes things way nicer to use

I also quite like LuaJIT's optimization features though

[rustic vine]

Oh tough one. If you print i, it definitely would use NEWCLOSURE, I think N would cause that too but I'm unsure if it can tell N doesn't change

[spare quartz]

oh i just used N cause it was the first variable i saw

didn't consider mutability

[rustic vine]

local function a()
   print("hi")
end

This would still get DUPCLOSURE

[rustic vine]

I think it's based on if the function captures any upvalues

So N would also be a new closure

[rustic vine]

Luau can actually beat out luajit in a few edge cases! Still a little far from general case though

[wintry fable]

Huh neat

[spare quartz]

test

[wintry fable]

I've mainly been messing around with this language called Nelua recently

Funny Lua-style language that compiles down to C

[spare quartz]

ugh god this is miserable

[wintry fable]

Switch statements, structs, and typecasting in Lua, funni

[rustic vine]

100_f32 is cool

I used to use a units library in cpp that did 10_m for 10 meters

[wintry fable]

Oo nice

Could prolly set that up in Nelua as well, it's got a really neat preprocessor system

[spare quartz]

i could say a single word but i dunno if thatd be a good idea

[rustic vine]

and you could do like

meter_t m = 10_cm```

and m would be in meters

[rustic vine]

so you said 15 words instead? OK

[spare quartz]

the word is ada

[rustic vine]

does ada have that?

[spare quartz]

yes