Controversy discussion (ars technica article)

[serene flax]

Why did Berserk ignore the email for over a week?

[noble raptor]

I don't think Beserk specifically will answer that, but the consensus I've seen in discussion is that formulating responses, especially in such sensitive matters, takes time and often requires consultation to ensure that there isn't anything that can be misconstrued.

[serene flax]

I get that, but they couldn't even respond in a general form such as "We take this concern seriously and are looking into it, expect an update in ..."

Reading over the series of events, it seems to go back to the email having never gotten a response as the point of escalation.

That and the moderator in global chat refusing to take a request for clarification seriously and just re-posting the vague language.

It just seems like there was several ways this could have been de-escalated.

[gloomy oriole]

Fluke, problem was that Vague language was straight to the point, it was automatic for the reason that certain word were banned, because someone was using them as a slur

Sadly people use word like Gy or Trns as derogatory term

[muted shore]

ii mean.. no, they've said that after the fact, but initial responses to Xoe made it clear that they thought any discussion which would involve using said words would be off-topic and "not family friendly"

[serene flax]

Is the G word still automatically blocked even after the apology?

[gloomy oriole]

No, but i dont want to start a riot here

[muted shore]

there's no global chat at all any more so there's no words to block

[serene flax]

yeah, that is just kind of shuffling the dirt around

[muted shore]

you can use the words "gay" and "trans," they're not slurs

treating them like they ought to be was kind of part of the problem

[noble raptor]

just to be clear, why do you think that would start a riot?

[gloomy oriole]

Because of trolls?

[muted shore]

i agree

[gloomy oriole]

We have one here, he is the sole reason

[noble raptor]

I don't think you should allow your behaviour to be dictated by trolls, but if you think that's best

[serene flax]

It just feel like gamers need to keep escalating things louder and louder to get game companies to listen that marginalizing minorities is not ok.

[gloomy oriole]

I do Merlin, for best of all of us here

[serene flax]

Anyone remember when Xbox Live banned everyone for being in Fort Gay, West Virginia (an actual real town)?

[muted shore]

using or not using completely appropriate words is not what's going to stop trolls from being trolls

[gloomy oriole]

Fluke, problem is, gamers are not the problem, we have problem with these Trolls as well, its more of an social issue than gamers themselves

[muted shore]

and, again, acting like we ought to avoid using those words to not impinge the sensibilities of trolls is part of the issue

the culture that has been created by gamers and continues to permeate a lot of those circles is 100% part of the issue. I think it's disingenuous to pretend this is just some individual bad actors

[serene flax]

But is banning an minority their identity the right way to avoid trolls?

[noble raptor]

to be frank, I'm disgusted by the circumstances that lead to this. I'm disgusted that it carried on so long, and I'm disgusted by the response to it. the later responses have been better, but I'm sceptical they are anything more than slightly smarter damage control. I don't believe this is all fixed, I don't like the global chat solution (even if I never used global because of what a cesspool every global chat is).

Regardless of all that, I have to judge based on how the mods and Beserk are acting now. The mods in this discord have been polite, said the right things, done the right things since then. I don't believe that things have changed under the surface, but I feel that I have to trust that they have, because otherwise I would never trust anyone or anything.

[muted shore]

yeah, that's largely where I'm at

there seems to be a genuine attempt at fostering an actual inclusive community, even if at points it seems to be happening in spite of Berserk themselves

[gloomy oriole]

Good question
But is also a possibility that someone will make a fun of them, even tho they didnt write or do anything, good? No
all-chat is just dangerous for all minorities or any culture, it will be hard to make a perfect system where everyone can represent themselves, without the danger of being targeted

[noble raptor]

but what you are suggesting just others minorities further

[muted shore]

you don't protect people by forcing them to not even be able to discuss their own identities. notice how this discord has managed to be pretty pro-active about the influx of trolls without just auto-banning the word "gay"

[noble raptor]

instead of normalising existing as an LGBTQ+ person in a public space, you are removing the public space so nobody has to be around LGBTQ+ people

[muted shore]

yeah, that too

[noble raptor]

and Nick makes a great point about the fact that even with a very very small mod/user ratio this discord has since pretty quickly had most trolls removed

[gloomy oriole]

I mean, we can all be nice to each other and just talk about Tabletop, but we know that that even if we manage to stop 99% trolls, some will slip

[noble raptor]

I think sometimes the mods give the users more benefit of the doubt than I would, but I understand that it's an incredibly fine line to walk

[muted shore]

the insistence on arbitrating what counts as "just talking about tabletop" is again part of the initial issue

[serene flax]

or arbitrating what counts as "family friendly"

[muted shore]

yeah

[serene flax]

I have seen family friendly comedy movies that are rated PG that include the words "I'm gay"

[gloomy oriole]

Hey, talk about it all you want Nick, but the reason why we are all here is not out gender, culture or color.
But our mutual love for Tabletop games.
Its sad that any member of our community is targeted and we should help, you can take direct approach, i will ask admin and others will simply stay neutral to not start disscusion that will make a lot of people sad

[serene flax]

I'm trying to be careful not to make anyone sad

I was just curious how it escalated this far

[muted shore]

some people absolutely integrate different parts of their identity with their tabletop hobby. LGBTQ+ people over the course of this have been talking about how TTS became the center of a lot of LGBTQ+ tabletop players because they often feel unsafe or unwelcome in irl gaming spaces. You would do well to listen to what people in the communities you supposedly want to protect are actually saying

[gloomy oriole]

Man, i play with my Gay friend on Tabletop

[muted shore]

putting the onus on marginalized people to not even mention that they belong to X group is not the way forward with this

that much so far should be pretty clear

[serene flax]

then you understand why it helps to be able to find like minded people?

[noble raptor]

I also have a black friend

[gloomy oriole]

I played many games with different kind of people here, i dont care, as long as you are having fun and not ruining a game, im absolutely happy to have you 🙂

[noble raptor]

as long as you don't mention that you're are LGBTQ+ it seems

[muted shore]

yes, but you seem to be suggesting you're not happy if they make it known that they're, for example, gay

[gloomy oriole]

What, no i dont care really, why would i?

[muted shore]

this is the strong implication of your comments so far

[raven matrix]

My understanding is that their narrative is that there was someone specifically using fetish language (not merely identifying) and talking about “stinky buttholes” in a non-18+ chat, but then the mod clarified this horribly because the mod likely does not personally care

i.e. the narrative was valid but improperly sustained

I haven’t seen the actual complete unedited chatlogs though

it seems like nobody has lol

[serene flax]

I am not clear on the full context either given the unedited chatlogs will probably never be available to us

I am just disappointed they didn't respond to the email in some way even if it was only to provide an ETA to a response

I'm running out of games companies to trust :P Microsoft has had their issues, Riot games had their issues, Blizzard/Activition just recently tried to come to terms with their issues.

[raven matrix]

if Berserk thought they were in the right (and they would be in the right if the person was just originally being vulgar and then successfully dragging their identity into it), then it would make sense to “wait for it to blow over”

[noble raptor]

I think if you're trusting games companies to do anything other than make games you're probably going to be disappointed I'm afraid

[muted shore]

i mean yes, but i feel like it's not unreasonable to expect, like, a lack of systemic sexual harassment

in the blizzard case

[serene flax]

I think when someone takes the time to escalate to sending an email asking for clarification on company policy, it is no longer time to treat it as something that will just blow over

[serene flax]

Riot games was similar to Blizzard's case

[noble raptor]

I definitely don't think it's unreasonable to expect that, and yet we've heard about it at blizzard, riot, a whole slew of other companies

it's certainly upsetting

[muted shore]

right, so all I'm saying it's definitley worth keeping mind that game companies do not care about us, but I do think it's fair to attempt to hold them accountable still and to be disappointed when they engage in shit like that

[noble raptor]

oh yes, sorry if I come across as if I'm doing the "what's the point" thing, I definitely don't want to do that

[gloomy oriole]

Wtf no, there was not, you are reading into too much
I set myself a simple rule. If They are happy, then i am 🙂

[muted shore]

can you explain what you meant by this:

Hey, talk about it all you want Nick, but the reason why we are all here is not out gender, culture or color.
But our mutual love for Tabletop games.
Its sad that any member of our community is targeted and we should help, you can take direct approach, i will ask admin and others will simply stay neutral to not start disscusion that will make a lot of people sad

[raven matrix]

the business model of Tabletop Simulator relies on encouraging piracy and expecting board game devs to not enforce their copyright

but that’s not what’s currently moral/holy to care about

[serene flax]

you are fine, I'm not bothered by how you are wording things.

[muted shore]

right i didn't think you were, was just trying to be clear

[raven matrix]

it is pretty amusing that people are suddenly like “I can’t believe people profiting on IP theft are… bad”

[noble raptor]

ah, good. I just wanted to make sure because I think apathy is one of the worst responses to things like this

[serene flax]

they have no procedure for responding to DMCA compliants?

[raven matrix]

they do; that doesn’t change what I wrote

[noble raptor]

I wouldn't engage with Actual G, they've pretty consistently argued in bad faith and all around been horrible for everyone to talk to

they seem to attribute an imagined decline in the moral fibre of the world to Skyrim

[raven matrix]

none of what I wrote is in bad faith except for jokes about Todd Howard

[muted shore]

Yeah, not worth your time.

[serene flax]

I'm taking what everyone says with a grain of salt. We are just talking.

[gloomy oriole]

Yes, i meant that this game was for everyone and will be for everyone.
Then i stated that anyone who is attacked should be helped, because we are here for that reason, everyone should feel like part of the community

[noble raptor]

Fair enough, I just thought it was worth mentioning

[muted shore]

no, that's not what you said there. I am asking you to explain what you mean by saying that we're not here because of gender etc., but for tabletop games, and that you don't think we should bring up things that make people sad

[gloomy oriole]

Ok let me explain

[serene flax]

Is he blaming Skyrim or ZeniMax Media? Because there is plenty I find upsetting about ZeniMax Media :P

[muted shore]

something something the fact that people enjoy skyrim is a sign of the degradation of humanity

[serene flax]

So basically he is being Jack Thompson? :P

[raven matrix]

no lol

not in that way

[serene flax]

At least you got the joke/reference

[raven matrix]

anyway I sincerely believe what I said about Skyrim; you can think I’m an idiot but I’m not a troll

[muted shore]

he just thinks skyrim is for intellectually inferior minds and that society can't evolve unless we all play Dark Souls or something

[raven matrix]

i would not word it like that

[muted shore]

the whole convo is over in off-topic if you scroll up a bit. Not really worth your time though probably

[serene flax]

So we used to have intellects until we took an arrow to the knee?

[muted shore]

lol

[gloomy oriole]

"we're not here because of gender etc"
Yes, are we? When i bought this game, i wanted to play a game with anyone on this world that might enjoy a game that i enjoy (I Persume that most other players including gay people too)
And its unacceptable if somebody cant because somebody made them feel like they cant

[raven matrix]

i think a society that cherished Dark Souls would be healthier than one that cherished Skyrim, because Dark Souls stands for [x values] and Skyrim stands for [y values] etc.

lack energy to fully rehash it

i just don’t think it’s as absurd as they keep reducing it to

[noble raptor]

I think that first sentence is pretty absurd buddy

[muted shore]

right, and one of the things that made them feel like they can't was an inability to even talk about that part of themselves, because of the blanket ban on words like "gay," and an apparent policy that such discussion was off-topic and not family-friendly.

Given that, do you not see what might be problematic about continuing to insist that it's better just not to mention certain things?

Insisting on "neutrality" here is to ignore what the problem was in the first place.

[raven matrix]

let’s take the most extreme examples just for the sake of argument:

a society that watches Shakespeare is “healthier” (more robust, more sophisticated, what have you) than one that stares at cave paintings

this is, again, an extreme example to illustrate a point. the margin between Skyrim and Dark Souls is vastly narrower but not nonexistent

[noble raptor]

I think you were right to say not to rehash it, let's just agree to disagree and stay on topic

[serene flax]

I think you are putting to much on what media people consume with what they will do after they consume it.

[muted shore]

it's just the utter myopia of attributing cosmic significance to liking the things you like

[noble raptor]

If you do want to rehash it I think it's best to go back to #off-topic as I think the discussion here is important

[serene flax]

True, sorry.

[muted shore]

like, oh, how coincidental that the games that just happen to objectively reflect a more evolved society are the games I happen to like

yeah, right, sorry

[raven matrix]

I think it’s a seriously understudied field

[gloomy oriole]

Hey Nick, the system was not perfect and simply, all-chat cant be, i used it ONLY for invitation into a game and i usually had fun conversations in that game and i made friends there, some of them were of LGBTQ+ Community, one had They/them pronoun (Which was rather fun to learn how to properly do they pronounce as english is not my native language)

[raven matrix]

Culture is important and media is culture

Anyway that’s all I’ll say about that here

[noble raptor]

I don't think anybody was asking for it to be perfect, only for it to not systematically exclude LGBTQ people

[muted shore]

I just don't know what you're even arguing at this point, let's chalk it up to a language barrier and move on

[gloomy oriole]

Im not arguing, you asked me how i meant what i said and presumed that i said it in deragotery term instead of seeing it in neutral or normal way, next time try to listen to other people first before thinking their are against anything, well in actuality their are in support of it.

[muted shore]

what you said still implies what both Merlinpig and I have assumed it did, and you haven't actually made a good case for why it doesn't, but, again, I am willing to chalk this up to a language barrier

[tepid arch]

Dont give those fucking assholes power.

[open fable]

My entire love for table top gaming is inextricably linked to my queerness. They are part of each other and not separate things. To deny me the ability to talk about being queer while playing is denying part of why I enjoy the games.

[raven matrix]

lolwut

i suppose i need to clarify that

as a man, i keep a list of every man i’ve had an “encounter” with. only a nickname for them and the act that took place, no other details. that list stands at somewhere above 500. i am not proud of it and in a perfect world it would be much shorter. i am mentioning this because my “””””””””queerness””””””””” by volume is unfathomable.

my list of board games is about 80.

other favorites not pictured: Imperial Struggle, Meltwater, Ponte del Diavolo

[open fable]

So at this point I'm 100% convinced that you are nothing but a troll.

[raven matrix]

the idea of connecting “queerness” with these games is the most hilarious thing I’ve ever heard of

[raven matrix]

hang on, I will DM the list to you

[open fable]

Good for you. I really could not care less about literally anything you have to say.

[raven matrix]

ok, you’re calling me a troll when I can actually prove what I’m saying. cool.

if you’re trying to convince anyone that board games are “inextricably linked with your queerness”; that’s not your “queerness” talking; it’s something else.

[muted shore]

You're entirely misunderstanding what they said

[raven matrix]

that may be true

[muted shore]

I'm not gonna start shit with you again, but how many times have you been called a troll just today, just on this Discord? If you're genuinely not trying to be a troll, it's worth stepping back and reflecting on how you interact with people and how what you say comes across.

[raven matrix]

I can post the list to prove it; it’s not trolling if I am speaking honestly and in good faith

flat-out rejecting to process something someone says does not reflect badly on me

[muted shore]

In this case you come across as trolling because you're just fundamentally misunderstanding what they said

But again, being called a troll has been the end point of almost every interaction you've had here today. It's worth asking yourself whether that's something to do with you.

[raven matrix]

My understanding of what they said is that they cannot separate their “queerness” from board games. That’s what they said. That’s what I find hilarious.

And it affects me because, being a queer person, I am tired of hearing queerness being used as a manipulative euphemism for mental illness.

[muted shore]

He didn't even come close to saying it was a mental illness.

[raven matrix]

I am tired of it.

I would be impressed if they did.

[muted shore]

You are incorrect, you are projecting, and that you've been doing this all day is why people think you're a troll.

[open fable]

No. I said I cannot separate my queerness from table top gaming. Board games aren't the only type of table top gaming there is.

[muted shore]

Instead of even asking for clarification you just jumped to saying what they said was ridiculous and, apparently, flexed about your board game collection.

[raven matrix]

Well I completely understand it in reference to RPGs

[open fable]

Don't forget the weird.. flex.. about how many dudes they've had relations with...

[muted shore]

You honestly seem to, like, just not get how to interact with people. And that's not necessarily your fault, but it is on you to check yourself.

[raven matrix]

It’s disgusting and I only mention it when someone is trying to play the “I’m so queer” card

[muted shore]

They... Didn't? They literally just said their queerness and board gaming were linked for them. Even if you did think it was somehow disgusting you didn't ask them to explain further you just jumped to being a dick about it.

[raven matrix]

To say anything is “inextricably linked to your queerness”, especially something as abstract as board games (which they’ve already backed off from by mentioning RPGs, realizing a cornering moment), is to imply a holisticism of one’s queerness, i.e. “so queer”

[open fable]

I didn't back off of anything, you're just willfully misinterpreting what I'm saying.

[muted shore]

On just a pragmatic note, you are going to get banned from this Discord if you keep being hostile.

And also, like, you seem to actually want to interact with people here, because you keep doing so even after thoroughly alienating them.

So I think on some level you surely must recognize how counter productive your approach to discussion here is.

[raven matrix]

I am hostile only in this instance because planting a queer flag on every possible space “because I just can’t help myself” is not something that should be taken with reverence

[open fable]

What a toxic take.

[muted shore]

Again, you never even asked them to clarify. This is all you projecting. And this is hardly the first instance in which you have approached discussion hostiley.

[open fable]

like what an absolutely phobic take.

[raven matrix]

Pushback is not phobia; I promise you I fear no queer.

[muted shore]

All right, I genuinely tried this time, but on a selfish note now, honestly, all you do is make this space worse and you don't contribute anything. <@&344973957214240768> any chance we can call enough enough here?

[raven matrix]

I contribute plenty, you just don’t like it because you want certain narratives to win out over others

And to be unchallenged

[muted shore]

Sure.

[open fable]

phobia doesn't necessarily mean fear.

[raven matrix]

It must; homophobia properly defined implies an element of fear, and it should.

To lose that element is to cheapen the word

[vapid totem]

I need a bit to catch up on what's happening

[raven matrix]

vis-a-vis this discussion, the victim narrative is truthful but should have some bounds to it

[vapid totem]

What I don't understand is why you're pushing back on these

[vapid totem]

in a perfect world it would be much shorter
This suggests you're carrying shame for it

[raven matrix]

Yes

[vapid totem]

Why

[raven matrix]

I can’t remember their faces

They hit me up and they say “I’ve ______ you before”

I can only say “I don’t doubt it”

What can a man feel but not shame

Shame was a word made for this

[vapid totem]

I meant more shame for being queer not being promiscuous

[raven matrix]

It is actually hard to divide them

At least harder, I presume, than with board games lol

Now if they said “would prefer not to” instead of “can’t” then I’d have nothing to laugh at

But the shame is linked in my mind because most gay spaces are hyper-sexualized

[vapid totem]

You understand that the reason you're getting people hostile with you here is they aren't shameful of themselves, and that shame is something that many other queer folk have fought against

[raven matrix]

I believe “I am incapable of separating my queerness from board games” is an admission of fault, which fault should be shamed. This whole discussion is a shame game after all.

[vapid totem]

When you're telling people that it's ridiculous to tie their identity to what they enjoy it's more telling about you than anyone else

The entire point of pride is to not hide. You're going completely against that here because?

[raven matrix]

It’s not ridiculous to tie your identity to what you enjoy, but if it’s because you “can’t help yourself” then that implies a victimhood-of-self which should be called out

[vapid totem]

I don't get where you're seeing victimhood at

[raven matrix]

#932769529350721567 message

It’s a victim statement in a discussion where LGBT folk are suing for victimhood status (to what degree of validity I ultimately can’t say)

[vapid totem]

Did I miss some discussion about suing?

[raven matrix]

in the broader sense, like “suing for peace”, not a literal lawsuit

“calling out to be recognized and recompensed”

same idea

[vapid totem]

I don't see where anyone is playing a victim here still. Also your points aren't too far removed from the more obviously bad points.

[raven matrix]

I guess what I can say is the real essence of my bent, is this:

Many LGBT people are victimized. They call attention to this, rightfully, to enact change. Change is power, and victimhood status is recognized. A number of queer people adopt “victim tactics”. If it is the case where the original chat person of this controversy was being vulgar in an under-18 chat, then successfully appending their identity to it, that is an example of victim tactics. It need not even be intentionally deceptive.

I feel physiologically imperiled by the idea of being painted as a victim, so when I see an especially ridiculous victim statement, I push back.

I have seen many, many queer people go out of their way to claim victimhood.

I do not want queerness to be associated with victimhood.

That is my cause.

[solar swallow]

I mean, Phaaze is obviously the authority figure. However, you need to seriously stop judging other people for wanting to express themselves. I read some of the conversation. Queerness isn't associated with victimhood. At least no more than race or religion.

[vapid totem]

If it is the case where the original chat person of this controversy was being vulgar in an under-18 chat
This was not the case. I don't know why it's being told other than mostly the bigots trolling around steam reviews and such.

[raven matrix]

I haven’t seen the chatlogs so I don’t know; nobody seems to ever link them

I think I saw a glimpse of them but it was so edited I checked out

[solar swallow]

I can send you Xoe's copy. However, I doubt TTS staff is going to give you access to chat logs.

[raven matrix]

It’s telling enough in itself that this isn’t public information lol

[vapid totem]

I think it's unfair to view others as wanting to be victims. Someone else being a victim also doesn't mean you have to be a victim.

[solar swallow]

It's not public because TTS doesn't want to blemish their reputation any more than they already have. They want this over with.

[raven matrix]

I want unity. I actually read and converse with The Other Side, The Forbidden Ones. They understand that victimhood is power. They employ it to their own ends as well.

Kyle Rittenhouse is that fine example of victimhood defecting

[solar swallow]

This is why people keep saying you're a troll. You act like a crappy philosopher.

[vapid totem]

What do you mean

[raven matrix]

I’m using the capitalized words jokingly but I hope the meaning is understood

[raven matrix]

Kyle’s victim status is power. That side, for many obvious reasons, does not get to be recognized as victims often. This transfer of victim-power shocked the world.

This is a discussion of victimhood

[solar swallow]

Kyle Rittenhouse is a controversy that no one know what really happened. He might be a victim, he might not. We don't know.

[raven matrix]

Recognition is the concern here, and he was recognized

Likewise, here people have obscured the truth (the chatlogs) and have opted for recognition

All of the important people nowadays are victims, and some are trying to be

Even Jeff Bezos, in court, has to tell us about his tragic upbringing lol

[solar swallow]

So what? He was recognized? He either was out for blood or trying to do the right thing.

It doesn't matter, friend. Nobody but you cares about the fact that people take victimhood. They do it because most people have been a victim. I've been a victim myself.

[vapid totem]

Honestly this conversation has turned into a lot of nonsense. I don't think you have any point to make.

Rittenhouse being some example of victimhood being used by the right, shocking the world?

Victimhood is used by everyone, it's not some secret tactic

[solar swallow]

He's arguing semantics is all. People worded something in a way that he didn't like, and he wants to use that to start an argument.

Victimhood is normal. Everyone's been a victim at one point or another.

[raven matrix]

I gave my comments, they’re worth what they’re worth

[vapid totem]

They're really worth nothing without a point to them

[raven matrix]

I believe “queerness inextricably linked to my hobbies” is a victim tactic. That’s the point. It’s not obvious or banal.

[solar swallow]

The original point was the fact that people said that queerness and gaming were related. I think that's entirely true because the gaming community needs to accept them. They don't connect actual board games to queerness, but the experiences. I've seen the problems with LGBT representation in gaming. They just want to be themselves doing something they love.

[vapid totem]

Your observation isn't a point in and of itself

You're not getting anything by arguing that other than making everyone else annoyed

[muted shore]

Can I also say that this is part of a day-long pattern of him intentionally antagonizing people,. It seems pretty clear by this point that they're only here to stir shit

[raven matrix]

That’s not true.

[raven matrix]

The observation can be seen and discussed; it is not on me if people find the observation is annoying when it is neither obvious nor banal

[vapid totem]

But who asked?

[raven matrix]

Nobody asked them!

[vapid totem]

They were having a discussion and you've successfully derailed it into this

[raven matrix]

What I wrote could be discussed just the same if one wanted a discussion.

My perspective is just as valid as theirs.

[vapid totem]

You're also ignoring that you're arguing things aligned with all the trolls we've been having to ban

[raven matrix]

I know nothing about any of that

Legit, I have not been there, I have not read it, I don’t know what’s the deal

I am sure there’s plenty of dumb bigots who’ve driven by here

I am not one of them

[vapid totem]

Then my next question is why should I treat you differently if you're going to be similarly antagonizing

[raven matrix]

Well, a bigot opposes all LGBT people, and I oppose one, specifically one paragraph of theirs.

I guess you could extrapolate my opposition to the general “inextricable queerness” rhetoric. I am ultimately gay, not queer, and I admit my usage of “queer” is tactical.

So if you want to allow only one LGBT narrative here, by all means

[open fable]

That is just patently false.

[raven matrix]

Which part of it

[open fable]

That in order to be a bigot you have to oppose all LGBTQIA+ people.

The fact that you used queer as a tactic is bigoted. Plenty of people that are part of the LGBTQIA+ community are bigoted against other subsections of the community.

[raven matrix]

Well, the word “bigot” has to mean something

[raven matrix]

I would argue that all usages of the word “queer” are inherently tactical, because it’s more ambiguous than other words (such as “gay” or “bisexual” or whatever).

The word is even used in explicitly tactical ways, “queering spaces”

“queer eye”

These imply tactical approaches

[open fable]

I don't think you know what that word means.

[raven matrix]

Tactical?

to “queer a space”, i.e. to colonize it. Tactical.

[vapid totem]

If anyone's been "tactical" about their queerness it's you using it to deflect criticism

[open fable]

Queering a space isn't colonizing it. If anything it is decolonizing it.

[raven matrix]

That’s a tactical look at it

[open fable]

Queer is not tactical. It is more ambiguous in order to both be more inclusive, and to cover people who have identities that aren't clear cut and easy to explain.

[raven matrix]

Because they choose not to explain them, which is a choice, a tactic.

[open fable]

No, because they cannot all be explained.

Or because multiple facets of their gender identity and attractions combine and interweave in ways that make using something like gay unreasonable.

[raven matrix]

I’m using the word “tactical” with no negative connotation since I believe all language is tactical, but is often not regarded as such (hence I am indicating a lens)

You say “using queer as a tactic is bigoted”

[open fable]

you can say you use it with no negaative connotation but that would be a lie. Your actions spoke very differently

[raven matrix]

I could be inexplicable if I want; I could be “queer” if I want, nobody could say otherwise, and at a certain point it’d just be true

I’ll concede that some people are just queer

But I’ve seen the word most often used in contexts that scream “tactical” to me

I will unconditionally concede I am queerphobic and take some time now in silence to reflect on this

[muted shore]

Jesus Christ, okay

[stiff jacinth]

Yikes on bikes, here.

Boy there are a ton of baseless accusations getting thrown around in here.

[vapid totem]

I think this topic has derailed enough to the point that this thread has ended

[stiff jacinth]

Yeah probably. It's a bummer too, because there was a lot of good info in here.