For Later Reference - Why Minority Spaces Matter

[rotund moon]

Okay making this to dodge the timer as well as refer back to later whenever this comes back up in the general chat

Okay so-
Minority spaces are not a bad thing.

I realize that for you its not a big deal if you find out that someone is gay trans or whatever- that's good it shouldnt be.

What does matter is that minorities can genuinely be exposed constantly to discrimination, mistreatment, or even a sort of "Different treatment" (Like people trying to be WAY too supportive that its super performative and uncomfortable). So one of the way to dodge this kind of thing and just have a good time is to have a homogenous space for that thing

[neat barn]

Lots of people also are not publicly out. So having a space to be privately out its valuable.

[rotund moon]

Now your first reaction might be - isn't that discrimination against the majority? You're excluding everyone else. Definitionally - yes, it is discriminating in terms of selection, but realistically the consequences of doing that don't matter to the majority. Nearly every space outside of that caters to the majority and is oriented towards it.

It's the "Is Cracker a Slur" argument - Yes it is, by definition, but its actual impact is nothing as white people don't face systemic oppression

Does that make sense @carmine radish

[carmine radish]

I would still say it's a dangerous assumption.

For the time, yes people are marginalized. However, when you make places for people to be safe from it, you are marginalizing them as well.

While the initial intent might be good, the part that worries people is "when does that group disband, or when is it NOT needed anymore?"

Like for instance if someone is going to therapy an ethically GOOD therapist will make it so they do not need to go there anymore.

An ethically bankrupt therapist will keep them coming back to milk money out of them.

[rotund moon]

What? Im confused by this argument. The spaces arent marginalizing, and the group can disband when the external pressure matches the internal. If transphobia and homophobia are taken care of on a broad scale, you won't really need those spaces to be exclusionary at all, and most queer spaces even spite of this are inclusive for allies still

The reason the LGBT community exists at all without any consideration of their spaces is because of external oppression.

If it wasn't an issue there wouldn't be a community as there'd be nothing to distinguish them from normal average people

[carmine radish]

Agreed, there are places it is needed, where people with non-straight sexualities are persecuted, exiled, or killed.

However, there are also people that love to be part of a group, and like attention. This is obviously not everyone in the community, but I can say that crying wolf too many times will deafen people's ears when there IS a big problem.

Again, may be biased because I work a security job, but if you have too many false alarms, people will not respond when it is needed.

That's why I feel having this kind of a response might hurt the LGBT community long term. The chat has been going for almost a week now, and its FAR too easy for a bigot to say "lol, triggered"

(Also aware I'm not really helping by talking myself, so I contradict myself in that way.. lol)

[rotund moon]

"However, there are also people that love to be part of a group, and like attention."

What are you trying to get at here? I'm a little bit confused

So we've agreed its good to have minority spaces- so you can have let's say a D&D game lobby thats for LGBT+ People- but Im confused what attention seeking has to do with it?

[carmine radish]

I will respectfully say I think that may be "gaslighting", either intentionally or not. (With regards to the D&D lobby thing)

I argue it isnt a qualifier for orientation to have a specific gender or orientation for game lobbies. I dont care about that when looking for people to play with.

[hot marsh]

How is it gaslighting? You're genuinely not making a lot of sense

[rotund moon]

Misunderstanding an agreement isn't gaslighting friend, "there are places it is needed, where people with non-straight sexualities are persecuted, exiled, or killed. "

[carmine radish]

"So we've agreed it's good to have minority spaces."

Since I didnt actually say that.

[rotund moon]

So in this case

We have an environment and general society where they're all of those things

Even in the US

So Minorities can have spaces

For just minorities

[carmine radish]

Ah sorry, it is "false premise", not gaslighting, my mistake.

[rotund moon]

I mean, no it was just a misunderstanding.

But anyways

[carmine radish]

But that's what happened in the 50's with segregated bathrooms...

[rotund moon]

Okay let me walk through this one real quick

So let me walk it through this then- we have an environment in TTS where LGBT people face discrimination- they are allowed to say "Hey I want a game lobby where that's not going to happen, and I dont have that potential pressure"

And no- it is not.

[carmine radish]

wouldnt it attract the trolls if you post that as well though?

[rotund moon]

Yea but you can get rid of them if they show themselves and arrive at basically the space you want

[carmine radish]

That is what I dislike. This sounds odd, but while I might not agree with what you have to say, it's very important I hear you out.

If someone is unwilling to change thier mind, that is a dangerous place to be on either side.

[hot marsh]

LGBT people shouldn't have to "hear out" anti-gay bigots

[carmine radish]

Then how can you hope to combat them?

[rotund moon]

@carmine radish Let me put it like this

Do you like ISIS?

You know the terror group

[carmine radish]

I do not know enough about the situation to judge it. I'll be honest, do not watch a lot of news at all

[rotund moon]

Christ okay

[carmine radish]

Yes, but I have literally 0 clue what they have done recently

[rotund moon]

Okay do you think there are groups in the world

[hot marsh]

So tobbe clear, you think that at any point LGBT people exist in anything like public, they ought to be expected to argue with and defend themselves against homophobes and transphobia?

[rotund moon]

that are worth fighting

Militarily etc

[carmine radish]

Also, I'm not sure what they have to do with it? Already expressed opposition like that DOES exist.

[rotund moon]

Ill assume the answer is yes

[carmine radish]

And well.. that has been a lot of the TTS chat lately..

[rotund moon]

You're basically attempting to say everyone should be responsible for defending themselves at all times no matter the circumstance or context or space.

[hot marsh]

@carmine radish right and do you think it's unreasonable for queer people to want a chat where they don't have to do that all the time?

[carmine radish]

Again, I dont know much of what is going on, but with my very narrow understanding on that, yes ISID is bad.

[rotund moon]

Like for example I shouldn't be able to come into your home and tell you why I think you're wrong at 2AM uninvited

There are relevant context and spaces for it

Demanding that all Queer people be ready at a moments notice in any public setting to defend their right to exist is kinda wacky dog

[hot marsh]

It shouldn't be that hard to understand that sometimes people wanna play games with people they know won't challenge their right to exist

[rotund moon]

Like The moment I hear the gamer word come out of someones mouth, I probably don't need to hear the rest of the racist stance to know that I shouldn't give a shit

[carmine radish]

There are extremists that feel that way, but I'd argue most do not feel that way.

[hot marsh]

Respectfully, you are dismissing other people's lived experiences. Even set aside lgbt, go ask some women you know who game whether they think they need women-only spaces to game in and why

[rotund moon]

Yea Nick, bud, I think this ones just sort of a lost cause. He thinks you can debatebro your way out of lifes problems

[carmine radish]

Will say girlfriend does feel intimidated when there are a lot of guys at an in game board game night, or shes the only girl.

But shes working on overcoming that.

[hot marsh]

Do you... Do you think it's on her to overcome it if she feels intimidated or marginalized in majority male spaces? And not on the dudes there to not create that environment? You don't think it's reasonable if she wanted to maybe only game with other women sometimes?

I mean no disrespect by this, but are you by chance just really young? Like under 18?

[rotund moon]

Well maybe if she listened to their arguments about how its their space

She would better understand how to respond

[carmine radish]

I worry about any arguement where you change one word if "protected status" (age, sex, gender, etc) and it immediately is perceived differently.

For instance, exchange women for men in the statement, and see how it reads, does it sound worse?

[hot marsh]

1. men absolutely have a right to only game with other men if that's what they want; 2) I feel like it's been explained to you repeatedly why these two things aren't the same

[carmine radish]

Sadly closer to double that at this point lol

[rotund moon]

The issue is that this doesn't hold water in all cases. There are core power imbalances between protected statuses and those that are not- thus why they are protected. There are some arguments this questioning does apply to but in alot it just doesn't.

[hot marsh]

Okay, well, maybe reflect on the fact that the way you view and talk about this, plus not knowing who ISIS are, made me think you were around 16

[carmine radish]

A lot of those cases I feel it is similar to a golf handicap. Giving a leg up to those less fortunate sounds good on paper, but many will just perceive it as pandering.

[rotund moon]

ho boy

[rotund moon]

ALRIGHT BUD LETS TALK ABOUT DISCRIMINATION

[hot marsh]

Bottom line here is: if a group of LGBT people want an lgbt only gaming group, why is it any of your, or anyone else's, business?

[rotund moon]

Actually here's a really good temperature check

How do you feel about scholarships specifically for minorities, Doc?

[hot marsh]

Lmao I gotta go but good luck, heroic effort truly. Sorry if it seems like I was talking over you, was trying to bolster.

[carmine radish]

See you later.

[rotund moon]

Yea I'll be honest I don't have high hopes but Im trying to stay as good faith as possible lol

Doc basically, the way you're putting it is "some people might feel like X" and thats cool and all and they might genuinely feel like that

but the reality of the situation is that discrimination and historical differences do make a large impact in how society works

[blissful jackal]

The fact that you are trying to tell us in the queer community what we should be doing and who and how we should be interacting with others, while you disregard our side of our own damn story about our own damn lives, even though you just stated that you know little to nothing about any of this, shows why we need safe spaces. You’re literally trying to “debate” us about our own needs and rights. Dunning-Kruger effect in full force.

[rotund moon]

You can say "Dont do anything special or protect black people because White people might feel like its unfair"

who cares? The Material conditions of the world veritably prove that there are statistical differences in wealth accumulated by white people in America versus black people because of generation wealth disparity and discrimination practices

Queer people face housing discrimination, trans people healthcare discrimination, etc

Arguing against protecting classes is a bad idea because it doesn't change the reality we live in

Where people do it in spite of actual protections in place now.

So in reply to "many will just perceive it as pandering."

My answer is- who gives a fuck?

your entire stance is based off the idea that 'the majority of people don't discriminate, don't have bad feelings about, don't believe X, etc etc"

[carmine radish]

You absolutely should. False/ disingenuous sympathies are bad.

[rotund moon]

Yea they are bad, but catering to people like yourself who are trying to float the idea that it's a 'golf handicap' is genuinely harmful

and doesn't help society at all bud

[carmine radish]

That's kind of why i feel the donation Berserk made is purely reactionary. I feel its goodwill, but still publicity

[rotund moon]

I get that it might feel unfair that a Queer person can get a scholarship that you can't, but it doesn't change the reality that queer people are far more likely to not attend or graduate from college so that scholarship is good to help people and cater to that community's need.

[rotund moon]

Yea no shit sherlock

[carmine radish]

Because if they truly cared, it wouldn't have happened after a big blow up, would have happened the months before

[rotund moon]

Its a demonstration of good faith that they care while they work on a long term solution

They admit they fucked up

So its them trying to publicly demonstrate tangible support while working towards a long term solution

But oh wait, is that money going to be going towards the golf handicap that trans people get?

[blissful jackal]

We know that. But it’s BECAUSE of things like that that we need safe spaces without willfully ignorant debatebros like you trying to suck out all of the energy.

[rotund moon]

No offense, Doc. But you really could do some reading on like the manifestations of oppression and discrimination in society

[carmine radish]

Hey, dont stoop to that.

[rotund moon]

I think Im good on the conversation here, Doc. You kinda went mask off via the handicap comment, and I get you might be good faith- but there is no possible way for me to move you over without your own willingness to engage with the experiences of others and the material reality of oppression and its manifestations that exist now.

I graduated with minors in both Queer studies and Sociology, and I can assure you that the practice of 'Just ignore it' or 'try to engage it in good faith' does not work

[carmine radish]

Understood. Kind of need to get back to work anyway, went a bit over on my lunch break, but Real life kind of calls.

[blissful jackal]

I ain’t stooping to anything. Why are you here trying to toss out these half-baked, dismissive arguments? All you keep doing is arguing in bad faith and sealioning folks in here. You don’t even know what you’re talking about.

[hot marsh]

You should read over this convo again later, look at how much time and effort Jay took to try to explain this to you -- how much of your time it took, and then ask yourself if you think queer people who just want to play board games should have to have this conversation whenever anyone wants to have it with them.