Why this is happening

[abstract tundra]

Alright, let's start.

[gritty spindle]

Okay

Do you want me to present the information I have?

That I formed my opinion on?

Or will you do it first

[abstract tundra]

If you want to, but I was going to ask you to ignore all of that. It's most likely overly summarized.

[gritty spindle]

I can ignore all of that and start fresh, just want to let you know that I have read the document of the person who started this all in the first place

So I am at least somewhat informed of the problem

[abstract tundra]

Well, that's a good place to start.

[gritty spindle]

But I dont understand why this is a problem in tabletop

[abstract tundra]

Keep in mind what Xoe's document said, it's important for what I'm about to say.

When someone asks you why X isn't allowed, and you say "Because we don't allow any X, Y, or Z", the implication here is that X is, on some level, comparable to Y and Z.

This is part of the issue, that being LGBT got lumped in with politics and fetishes.

[gritty spindle]

Yeah, that was the fuzz basically, that Xoe was offended by sexuality put in a list with fetishes

[uneven sleet]

So Youri, quick question for a clarifying point of principles - do you believe that gender identity = Sexuality?

[abstract tundra]

I would say it's a normal assumption. If I told you that your avatar was banned because we didn't allow pictures of cats or disgusting creatures, a lot of people would assume I was equating the two.

[gritty spindle]

But thats not how a language works right? She makes that out of it herself. I would never assume the topic to be linked to fetish or politics.. Its a general rules list, and you cannot explicitly voice everything that can or cannot be said

So you make categories, and then when the line of the intent of the chat is being crossed, you refer back to the globalized categories

[abstract tundra]

That is how reader perception works, especially if you're used to having LGBT being equated with politics and fetishes by LGBT-phobes.

[gritty spindle]

I believe everyone can be what they want, and I do not think in black or white or rainbow terms

Its just a term, be what you want

[abstract tundra]

Now, IMO, this was not intentional on CHRY's behalf. I genuinely think she made a mistake because she's not a native speaker and didn't understand the implication.

However, the implication was there, and people took it like that.

[gritty spindle]

But because you're used to something, doesnt mean it is like that

[uneven sleet]

That's not a clarifying point- so let me ask again do you think that your sexuality (Who you're attracted to) is different than your gender identity (How you self-identify and express you gender through roles/societal and cultural memes)

[abstract tundra]

CHRY's apology also contained similar issues (again, I believe it was a "non-native English speaker" issue, not transphobia or anything like that), which is why people are upset.

[abstract tundra]

And just because you're not used to something doesn't mean it isn't like that. That goes both ways. Reader perception is informed by the reader's perspective, not the writer's intent. Readers aren't psychic.

[uneven sleet]

I also think he doesn't quite grasp why conflating Sexuality with Gender is bad, so he doesn't understand why the specific reference to being trans as a fetish is inaccurate, bad, and has historical precedent

[abstract tundra]

Moreover, actual, outspoken transphobes and homophobes have "taken the devs' side" on the issue, and believe the devs were being LGBT-phobic on purpose. IMO, if a bigot thinks your statement or action was intended to be bigoted, that should give you pause and make you reconsider what you said/did.

[gritty spindle]

I am trying to find an example for why this way of thinking is victim role, and not common sense

[abstract tundra]

Now, this is more or less why the situation has escalated to where we are now.

[gritty spindle]

So I'm not saying that LHBT is victimizing itself, but I am thinking that common sense would be better in this instance

[dull moth]

It's LGBT. I'm not even sure what you are referring to.

[gritty spindle]

You can always find a way to be hurt if all you see is knives

[abstract tundra]

Sorry, but if a group that you're part of - like being gay or trans - is constantly said to possess negative attributes, and then those attributes are listed together with said group as being "banned", any normal person would assume that the group is being banned because the speaker/writer believes them to be those things. That is common sense.

[weary hound]

why is it common sense to marginilize minorities and make the excluded from things

[gritty spindle]

I'm not sure why you're engaging in the debate when you have nothing to add that I asked for. LHBT is Dutch for LGBT, the H stand for homo instead of a G

[fiery leaf]

To expand a little on CHRY. The lead up was "Is gender considered inappropriate for chat too? Like sharing that I'm trans?" to which the response included "sexuality, fetishes or politics". Being transgender isn't about sexuality so people thought it was being lumped in with fetishes or politics which is why people weren't happy. Intentional or not the response to the incident happening wasn't great

[gritty spindle]

If you wouldve done some research you wouldve discovered yourself, but you choose to put effort in a debate that wasn't for you

[abstract tundra]

Moving on, let's start to answer why this matters.

[gritty spindle]

This is why I asked for a private discussion because it takes time for me to read and interpret your messages, and also form my own messages, without sending a bad message

[dull moth]

My dude, you jumped head first into a debate that wasn't for you, so let's not start there.

[fiery leaf]

Additionally one of the points being raised was about family friendliness and being told that the mere mention of gay or trans isn't family friendly stings when you are in a marginalised group

[abstract tundra]

Being LGBT is not an issue except to LGBT-phobes. There is nothing in inherently wrong, political, or any of that other BS, about being LGBT.

Guys, seriously, I made this a thread because I wanted it here for posterity, not for everyone to jump in.

I'd appreciate it if you waited until I was done explaining.

[dull moth]

Sorry, I'll stop.

[abstract tundra]

So the question is, should we force LGBT people to remain silent and hidden because bigots don't like them, or should we force bigots to be silent because they don't like LGBT people? IMO, the answer is obvious: bigots should STFU (or even better, GTFO).

[gritty spindle]

My example:

Its a sign stating rules that you should obey when visiting a park

[abstract tundra]

Bad example. I already said that the group in question is always falsely claimed to have those negative characteristics.

[gritty spindle]

'respect our nature, be quiet' with a picture or a noise stereo

Now If the ranger comes to me and says, hey please tone down your voice, he never implied I disrespect nature

[abstract tundra]

Again, bad example.

[gritty spindle]

But he will refer to that globalized rule

Okay I will stop and read your explanation further, I'm falling behind.. its harder to phraze correctly in english

[abstract tundra]

A more generic example:

We don't allow discussion of [subject related to a marginalized group] because we don't allow discussions of [marginalized group], or [negative attribute associated with marginalized group], or [other negative attribute associated with marginalized group].

The natural assumption is that they believe the stereotypes about the group.

[gritty spindle]

How is Being transgender not about sexuality?

[abstract tundra]

Because being trans is not a sexual orientation.

Sexual orientation denotes who you are attracted to, not how you perceive your own gender (cis vs. trans, to put it in very generic terms).

[uneven sleet]

Like I said, he didnt know the difference

[abstract tundra]

Now, why does it matter if LGBT people aren't allowed to say they're LGBT? I'd ask the exact opposite: why does it matter if LGBT people are allowed to say they're LGBT? What's the harm in it, exactly, compared to a non-LGBT person saying they have an opposite-sex partner?

[gritty spindle]

I would assume they want to keep the chat centralized and avoid controversial things

[fiery leaf]

If I may specifically address your park example, a closer parallel is like you trying to find people from your town in the park and the park ranger says you aren't allowed to discuss that here because they've had many people say horrible things about that town so that town's name is now banned. That town is part of who you are and you might be quite proud of your town and want to find people who feel the same way but mentioning the town at all is blanket banned. You can't help where you came from it is just who you are

[gritty spindle]

The world is a fucked up place with many people from many countries with many cultures and even more religions

[abstract tundra]

It's only "controversial" due to bigots, though, who make a concerted effort to ostracize any and all marginalized groups. That's not a good enough reason.

[gritty spindle]

Christianity despises being gay

ANd there are many christians

So what do you do to avoid confrontation in a place that is not designed for such confrontations, you ban the topic

[fiery leaf]

There are many branches of Christianity that accept gay people, let's not blanket too much.

[abstract tundra]

If I say in the chat "My boyfriend is a chemist", and someone else points out I'm a guy, why is that an issue compared to a man mentioning their girlfriend?

[abstract tundra]

Or you ban the bigots. My mom is a Catholic and she has no issue with me or my boyfriend.

[gritty spindle]

Not because you disagree, but because there are other places to talk about it.

I thin that actively searching for LHBT people to play with is just as bigot as people who actively say they don't want to play with LHBT

[abstract tundra]

It isn't, though.

[gritty spindle]

Why not, you are framing people

[uneven sleet]

You wouldn't say a Women's book club is bigoted lol

[gritty spindle]

gonna read back now

[abstract tundra]

Because if I were looking for an LGBT group, I would likely do it so I could speak to other people whom I can relate to in regards to being LGBT.

[uneven sleet]

If uh, yall didn't realize there's no point in engaging genuinely at: "I thin that actively searching for LHBT people to play with is just as bigot as people who actively say they don't want to play with LHBT" then I dont know what to tell you

[gritty spindle]

Okay I understand, but then again, what does it matter how someone identifies? Maybe I'm too easy with it, and I banned framed thinking a long time ago

[gritty spindle]

Thats why I dont really care about statements like this. You can be whoever you want. I shall judge you on your behaviour and nothing else

[uneven sleet]

Okay Youri, let me ask you a question- is it okay to have a womens book club and to seek out other women specifically women to have a book club with?

[abstract tundra]

You'd have to ask the bigots why they make such a big deal out of people's self-identification and sexual orientation.

[gritty spindle]

There is nor harm in it. But why share something so unrelated to the place you are? I dont go to a library to tell people about my feelings for motorcycles

Because nobody is there in the first place to hear that

[abstract tundra]

But if motorcycles come up in conversation, you're not banned from the library for saying you like them (or not). Nor is discussion about motorcycles banned from the library.

[gritty spindle]

No but it would get another reception in a club for climate activists

And maybe there it would be banned

The point is, what does gender have to do with checkers

do you have eyes? You can play? its okay

Just because youre in a minority or get harassed doesn't mean the whole world is constantly trying to get you

[abstract tundra]

It doesn't. Why should you be banned for mentioning you have a same-sex partner, though?

[abstract tundra]

It sure feels that way when you're told you can't mention you're part of a minority group in the vast majority of settings because "it's not relevant", while the majority groups can and do mention their own stuff without facing the same complaints.

I have never seen a straight man/woman being called out in any way for saying they have a girlfriend/boyfriend, but if an LGBT person does it, all of a sudden, they need to STFU, because "it's not the place for that".

That's what the issue is also about, the double standard.

If I wanted to talk about motorcycles in the Global chat, I could, without repercussion, even though it's not related to tabletop games.

If I wanted to talk about gardening, I could, even though it's not related to tabletop games.

And literally nobody complains about that.

If I mention I'm bi, all of a sudden I'm "invading this space" or "being political" or "shoving my sexuality down everyone else's throat" or whatever other LGBT-phobic BS bigots like to say.

[fiery leaf]

People relate more easily to people like them and some experiences you only feel you can share with people going through the game thing. I might want to play TTS with an LGBT group because I feel I can be myself around them and share things I can't with anyone else. So I might ask in the library if anyone likes motorcycles, find a group that does, then head off with them to do all sorts.

[gritty spindle]

Its just the sad reality of the state of civilization in the 21st century.

[abstract tundra]

Which you are tacitly supporting by letting the bigots get away with suppressing any discussion of LGBT-related topics due to a "problem" that they created.

It's like starting fires everyone mentions matches, and then nobody can even bring up matches in conversation because of the fires you started.

[gritty spindle]

And there are also many people who are indifferent (the majority I think, in Netherlands atleast ( indifferent meaning do whatever you want, live and let live)). But I feel like in the discussion you are either anti or pro. Thats black and white thinking and an example of how a loud minority (right extremists) can rule a debate.

[abstract tundra]

Imagine if every time gaming showed up in the news, someone who is anti-gaming went on a murder spree. Would you support a government that bans all games and conversations about games, or would you rather they get the people who are actually causing the problem?

[fiery leaf]

I think you've missed the point. The reason one would want to maybe go "off topic" is to find a group like them where they can feel safe and talk about things they can't elsewhere. If you don't have a need for that great but it is no skin off your back if someone does go around looking for a group like that.

[gritty spindle]

It shouldn't be, except for the fact that your taking hostage a chat meant for games with your off topic statement that no one was probably interested in. Just as little as the guy mentioning his girlfriend. If I had a say to moderation, I would ban them both. Talk games or take your discussion to a private table/other platform, its simple

[fiery leaf]

You say ban them both, ok. That wasn't happening. Also I think "taking hostage" is elevating it above anything that actually ever happened

[abstract tundra]

I'm not taking anything hostage, you don't have to discuss that if you don't want to.

Also, kinda hard to take it to a private table when I'm not allowed to mention it at all.

Also also, there was no blanket ban of anything that wasn't gaming related, which I already mentioned. There was a blatant double standard.

[gritty spindle]

I understand

[gritty spindle]

If only because I can understand that it is really fucked up to be called names all the time the moment you mention something about LHBT.

[gritty spindle]

Okay well if my honest and free minded way of thinking isn't for you then feel free to stop responding, reading and asking questions here

[gritty spindle]

Yeah, but I would raise an eyebrow if you would do it in a place that is not designed for such topics or group findings

[abstract tundra]

The point of global chat was literally to find groups.

[uneven sleet]

Okay so you agree its okay to have a space for a specific group and global is used for LFG (even though certain amounts off Off-topic is allowed)- then if I wanted a space for other LGBT people who play board games can I go into global and say "Hey Im hosting a board game night for LGBT! Come join."

[gritty spindle]

You shouldn't, unless the rules explicity state that such discussions (both ways) are just unwanted

[abstract tundra]

They were not enforced like that, though.

[gritty spindle]

My only complaint is that chat should be central and not about anyone's boyfriend, girlfriend, or whatever.. When a guy mentions his girlfriend I would think good for you but can she play chess.. When a guy mentions his boyfriend, I think the same, meaning I dont care about your life when I came to play chess

[abstract tundra]

But that's not what happened, though. What happened is that non-LGBT people could share the fact that they're non-LGBT, while LGBT people who did the same were harassed or even banned for doing so.

[gritty spindle]

That's not normal and unbalanced moderation, but it doesn't change my opinion that both statements are out of place in GC (global chat) and should just not be made

[abstract tundra]

Thing is, those topics can come up naturally in conversation. And only one side was being punished for it.

[gritty spindle]

Because, in this time and age, it is still a controversial topic. Just like religion.. It's very personal, so people will do a lot to defend their views and morals. If religious people (want to be) bigot about your gender or sexuality is it really his or her fault? Or are they indoctrinated by their religion? So is (that) religion wrong? Hmmmm.. thin ice, in God we trust right? It's just a deep and philosophical topic and I don't think it should have a place in a GC where people are generally not looking to be confronted with such topics.
That's now how I want it to be. It is the way it is, for now. Who to blame?

[dull moth]

They are to blame. Berserk gets to decide if they want to serve bigots or their targets. In this case, they are choosing to support LGBT folks.

[fiery leaf]

No one is trying to have a big philosophical discussion about LGBT issues in global chat. People are just trying to be themselves.

[uneven sleet]

Youri is assigning equal validity to the belief some people hold about LGBT people and the reality that they exist and say that they do so

Make of that what you will

[gritty spindle]

I'm not part of the LHBT community but I wouldn't judge you at all. You exclude me from your options just because there is a chance that someone might start harassing you. Didn't all of you already came to the point to ascend above that situation/person and just be yourself? Why exclude me based on your thoughts or views? Thats framing, just like bigots frame LHBT

We cannot continue like this I cannot keep up with replying while still understanding the argument in an orderly way. It takes much effort to think and frame my sentences right, and I want to protect that, for the benefit of a healthy debat

[abstract tundra]

It's only controversial because of bigots, though. They're literally the only ones who complain, nobody else cares.

[gritty spindle]

But you should know it will ignite the chat and steer it in to a particular direction, and thats what I mean by hostage.

[abstract tundra]

And? Just because some people try to stir up controversy doesn't mean we should avoid the topic.

[gritty spindle]

With interests based on the games you play, and not your personal life. Seems logical to me

[fiery leaf]

I think thinking about it as exclusion is the wrong way to go about it. I would absolutely have you in my group but I might also separate out the group if I wanted a private conversation with people that know what I'm going through. I can't be myself around all people but I'm not going to actively exclude people. If you have a group with some close friends and they bring their friends would you talk about more private stuff in front of everyone or would you only want your close friends to hear it?

Sometimes I only want to talk to and play with specific people but that doesn't mean I am excluding everyone else forever.

[abstract tundra]

Says who, though? Maybe I want to play a Matrix game with someone who's trans and therefore gets even the most subtle of trans references.

[shadow lodge]

If mentioning you are gay makes people cause a controversy. The people reacting poorly are the problem that needs to be dealt with not the person mentioning their sexuality.

[gritty spindle]

Why exclude me from your game? Because I'm not LHBT? I think that is framing and putting people in groups (including yourself) and groups will rather compete than cooperate. Why not the other way around? See who is interested in the game.. Then see if you like how that persons plays and behaves.. Then see if you're comfortable sharing parts of your life

[dull moth]

For the same reason I would say "I want to play with wargamers" or "I want to play with someone who speaks my language"

[fiery leaf]

"I don't think it should have a place in a GC where people are generally not looking to be confronted with such topics." That's the point. Knowing someone is gay or trans shouldn't be treated as being confronted by the topic. You are just learning another aspect of someone. It shouldn't spark some debate or dismissal.

[gritty spindle]

Then parliament is the place to do it and not tabletop. And if you think you can (forcefully) change the way people think about other people.. You are very wrong and naive, the opposite will rather happen, but saying that is homophobic, apparently

[shadow lodge]

Yes they way you want the rules implemented is homophobic.

[gritty spindle]

But it also doesn't mean you should take hostage a GC when it is clear that this is much wider problem than tabletop alone

[abstract tundra]

The bigots are the problem, not me. Look at my analogy here:

Imagine if every time gaming showed up in the news, someone who is anti-gaming went on a murder spree. Would you support a government that bans all games and conversations about games, or would you rather they get the people who are actually causing the problem?

[gritty spindle]

I understand

[gritty spindle]

Please be constructive or don't bother replying

I'm not interested in your assumptions, you don't know me at all, or what I might have done for you

[uneven sleet]

If examining what you said such as lending the same credence to something and the backlash to it isn't part of constructive discussion I dont know what is, friend

[gritty spindle]

The only thing I notice you doing is nit picking some phraze you can frame me with and then try to put assumptions or intentions in my words

You better keep your sentences and words simple for me to understand, it will help the debate

[uneven sleet]

Okay. You are saying that the people's belief against something should be treated the same way as the thing itself. For example- you shouldn't talk about being gay in general because it can cause an argument with people who think that's wrong.

In this example it's not being gay or discussing it that causes the issue, that's a fact for queer people. It's the belief that it is wrong and going after them that's causing the issue.

[gritty spindle]

So if im not gay I can not know what it is to be suppressed? Or to be restrained from voicing your thoughts or feelings? Or do you only care about LHBT suppresion in that sence, and the rest doesnt matter

[gritty spindle]

I understand

[fiery leaf]

I don't know how you got that from what I said. Of course you can be suppressed or feel like you can't fully speak your mind if you aren't gay. If you didn't feel like you could speak your mind around me or anyone I'd absolutely expect you to take yourself to somewhere you could if you wanted to. Just because you want to talk to a specific group at that time doesn't mean you are discriminating against me if you go somewhere else for a bit.

[gritty spindle]

I disagree, putting people in frames can never be beneficial to the whole population, maybe only to the feelings of that framed group, because they only hear and see the things that they want to hear. It makes it easy, yes.. But in the long term it doesn't bring people together, which is the whole point , right?

[fiery leaf]

Could you expand on what you mean by frames and framed thinking? I've not heard that before.

Is it like a walled off group? Your own little bubble?

[gritty spindle]

Yes I suppose

[dull moth]

Putting this into the context of Games. Do you think it is unreasonable to ask to play a game with people that speak your language?

[gritty spindle]

'with people that know what I'm going through.' Thats what triggered me. How do you know that I can't know what you're going through?

I finally catched up more or less..

Damn I feel even more confused than when we started

I think we agree on more than you'd think by my words

[abstract tundra]

Because you're not LGBT. It's that simple. You may know what it feels like to be persecuted because of something you can't change, but you don't know what it feels like to be persecuted as an LGBT person.

[fiery leaf]

There are many experiences that aren't universal. If I know you I know what experiences you know about. I'm not saying we will never be able to relate but I'm sure there are many experience you won't be able to relate to.

[gritty spindle]

I would like to have a seperate debate about that, another time, if you're interested

[gritty spindle]

No

not necessarily

[fiery leaf]

This spiralled out further than the initial point as these discussions are prone to do.

To answer why this is happening. The situation happened and the initial response was bad. Later responses were better. Right now people are waiting for what comes next but while people are waiting this situation has encouraged awful people to come out of the woodwork who refuse to listen to anything because they are just trolls which is making people more and more annoyed and angry.

[gritty spindle]

Thats why I wanted it 1 on 1, its easier to reply to just 1 argument at a time, coming from 1 persons view

[abstract tundra]

And it's why I asked people to stop commenting here, but... 🤷‍♂️

[gritty spindle]

People like me?

[gritty spindle]

We tried we tried.. Its good to have an open discussion

[fiery leaf]

Not at all what I am suggesting. The people in the steam forums, the steam reviews, the trolls who stormed into the discord

[abstract tundra]

I still want your reply to this, though:

Imagine if every time gaming showed up in the news, someone who is anti-gaming went on a murder spree. Would you support a government that bans all games and conversations about games, or would you rather they get the people who are actually causing the problem?
If you can understand this, you'll understand why your "Just don't bring it up because bigots cause problems" stance just helps the bigots and why most people feel it's not a good stance.

[gritty spindle]

Its easy to make those assumptions.. and its also easy to be mistaken about it. Its alright you could never know

[dull moth]

Then why is it any more unreasonable to ask for a group of LGBT folks?

[gritty spindle]

I understand

But not all bigots are hatefull trolls. And why force bigots to accept something they don't want to be involved with? Its not gonna work, it will spark discussion and trigger hate.
I'm not saying hate speech should be allowed, but it seems like expressing your dislike about LHBT is a hate crime. Thats not constructive, neither is hate speech.

If you say I'm gay, I could say okay, I don't like that.

Now what, I'm homophobic?

Maybe I don't like sexuality in general, who are you to judge the statement

[fiery leaf]

Why should the victims facilitate the bigots?

[gritty spindle]

There is just not a normal discussion possible in this political climate/ civilization, and therefore it can better be avoided, I think. Who are you to force your way of thinking to another person. Just like he is no one to force his beliefs up to you

[dull moth]

Yes, not liking gay people because they are gay is the definition of homophobic.

[fiery leaf]

No one is forcing anyone to think anything. People just don't want to be hated for things outside their control.

[abstract tundra]

Yes, all bigots are hateful trolls. I've yet to see one who wasn't.

And "it's not gonna work"? What's that supposed to mean? We're not trying to make bigots stop being bigots, we're just trying to have conversations like everyone else.

[abstract tundra]

Nobody, but why should we yield to what you think is acceptable?

[marsh cloak]

Because expressing your dislike about LGBT people is hate, it's actively causing harm to people because of a core part of themselves they cannot change. Being Bigoted is not the same as just thinking someone's taste in games is bad. If someone thinks that LGBT people are bad just because they are LGBT then they are being Bigoted, the same way someone thinking a person with darker skin is bad just because the color of their skin. Being a bigot is by definition being hateful. Expressions bigoted views and expressing support towards bigots is being both hateful and makes a person a bigot. You cannot have someone who is bigoted without it being hateful

[gritty spindle]

Will be replying later, on call now

thanks for the discussion, I got some insights

[marsh cloak]

The issue with this idea is that while you may not think you're forcing your opinion on anyone else, by saying we shouldn't talk about our identities you prevent us from finding people who share those identities and from being ourselves in that space. If me saying I am a Trans Lesbian is something that makes you uncomfortable, then you don't need to engage with me, but saying that I am not allowed to say that I am a Trans Lesbian because it makes you uncomfortable IS forcing your views on me. The difference between the two is that mine is a statement about myself, I am letting the world know who I am, and the second is a statement about someone else "You can't be that here" because saying I can't talk about being a trans lesbian somewhere is saying that in that space, I am not allowed to be a trans lesbian.

Saying "I don't like you because you're trans" is not the same as saying "I don't like you because you don't like that I'm trans"

The first is not liking someone for a fundimental unchangeable fact about them that is out of their control.
The second is not liking someone because they have a changeable opinion that causes you harm.

[gritty spindle]

Hate and dislike is not the same

[abstract tundra]

"Hate" is a subset of "dislike". Still, in a shared space (which the chat is), why should someone be excluded because a minority doesn't like them?

[fiery leaf]

Whether you hate someone for something they can't control or dislike someone for something they can't control the result is still you disliking someone for a core part of themselves that they have no control over. If you want to dislike an LGBT+ person because of an action they have done absolutely do that but disliking them because of something that is who they are is bad and causes harm.

[gritty spindle]

I roughly translated bigot to 'not being able to withstand a thought or expression' but maybe that is not correct. I just don't see how disliking the topic is hatefull trolling

[gritty spindle]

Nobody, but we all have to adhere to the rules of the platform

[abstract tundra]

Exactly.

@gritty spindle, imagine if I said I disliked Dutch people and didn't want them in the chat. Now imagine you were banned because every time you said you were Dutch, I made a big scene about it. Imagine I said my religion tells me not to tolerate Dutch people, so I was justified, and you had people come here telling you that you're the one who's wrong when you asked that the ban be lifted. Does that seem reasonable to you?

[abstract tundra]

The point is that the rules should (and will) be changed so they don't favor bigots.

[dull moth]

Yes, the rules of the platform are now explicitly "It is okay to say that you are LGBT in this chat" So this is moot.

The rules of the chat are also explicitly "If you not okay LGBT people, you will be banned." So If we are hinging on rules here, I wouldn't go into that territory.

[gritty spindle]

No but it does seem reasonable to avoid the topic both sides since the world is a place with many mixed views and beliefs. There are many countries with laws against LHBT. Do you expect those people to grow up with the same open minded view like we do? Should they be forced to adhere to the more Western and modern standpoint? How can you expect something to happen like that if their whole life is a propaganda machine against LHBT culture? So do we just dismiss these people? Take away their rights of opinion or have 'their own' view of life Or do we work together to avoid controversy in the first place, and do what brought us together here in the first place: play games

[dull moth]

we absolutely prevent those people from coming into the space and harming people. Period.

[fiery leaf]

If you say you don't like LGBT people and you have no justification other than the culture you were raised in you're damn right I'm ignoring you. (I might separately try and talk to you)

[gritty spindle]

Thats just as much discriminating as not accepting LHBT is

[marsh cloak]

But it isn't, I can't change that I'm a trans lesbian but you can change your views

[dull moth]

This is the paradox of tolerance. if you tolerate intolerance, you end up ith an intolerant space.

[gritty spindle]

That's easy said from someone in a free country. You don't live in Africa, Asia, or South America do you

[fiery leaf]

I think you've missed the point there

[gritty spindle]

Were you can go to prison for supporting LHBT

[dull moth]

Hey, they don't have to talk about how much they don't like LGBT folks. They can keep it to themselves.

[fiery leaf]

Society might discourage me from doing certain things publicly but it doesn't change what I feel

[marsh cloak]

This is not the point Youri, you're trying to move the goalposts. Just because someone somewhere lives in a bigoted society doesn't mean that I shouldn't try to change my society

[dull moth]

In any case, this is a moot argument. The rules are explicit. Identities can be freely talked about, and if you don' like it get stuffed.

[gritty spindle]

But you cant change the laws of a country

[fiery leaf]

Youri take a step back and make sure you are actually seeing the point

[dull moth]

No one is trying to. We are trying to shape the spaces we are in, not change the rules of theoretical spaces that might intersect with ours.

[marsh cloak]

Actually I am working to change the laws of my country. I regularly email, write letters and call my representatives because I believe that people should be allowed to be who they want without Bigots trying to silence them and harm them

[dull moth]

I spoke for you, that's my bad.

[gritty spindle]

That's very good of you. I hope you will succeed with it. There is a long way to go 😦

[gritty spindle]

Thats good

[marsh cloak]

Laws have nothing to do with it man, laws dont dictate what's morally right or ethically right, just what is legally allowed. Plenty of things that are legal are wrong and plenty of things that are illegal are right.

[gritty spindle]

So is it right to judge a human who grew up in their bubble with imprented beliefs, when person literally doesn't know better

[marsh cloak]

It's right to say "Go educate yourself and come back when you have a wider view of the world"

Like I'm doing with you right now

[fiery leaf]

It is right to judge their beliefs

[gritty spindle]

Ah but it only works one way?

[quick fable]

being gay isn't a belief

[gritty spindle]

oof the one person who could spoil the debate has arrived

If there is anyone that gave me the feeling of evil and poison it has been you

[dull moth]

I mean I'll say it. Being gay isn't a belief.

[fiery leaf]

Let's say I'm gay and Bob finds out about it. Bob believes that being gay is an abomination and a mistake in evolution. I can judge that, I can ask for why he believes. I can ask for his reasoning. What does he have to judge me on?

[gritty spindle]

I understand

[abstract tundra]

So you'd just passively accept that you're not allowed to mention an immutable part of your identity?

[gritty spindle]

Waiting for the one thing he could nit pick me on so he can tell his LHBT how much I hate gays and don't understand the topic

[dull moth]

I mean, you don't understand the topic. That's why we are here.

[quick fable]

All I've said to you for a very long time is "do you believe being gay is wrong" and you still haven't answered. I'd love if you could answer now, but either way I don't plan on continuing this conversation in here because I don't want to disrupt the good efforts people are making to help you understand.

[marsh cloak]

I can say "What you are saying is wrong and hurtful" without saying that you are inherently a bad person.

A person can do bad things and still be a good person as long as when they are told those things are bad they change their behavior to eliminate the bad thing they were doing.

If I tell you not to say something because it's transphobic and you keep saying the transphobic thing after I explained why it's transphobic and that you shouldn't that is what makes you a bad person

[abstract tundra]

You could start by using the English acronym, since we're talking in English, especially since "homo" is a homophobic slur in English. That would probably give you a little bit of good will from other people.

[shadow lodge]

You clearly don't understand the topic and multiple times have supported homophobia in this discussion

[gritty spindle]

Because I was trying to engage in a constructive debate with people that could look and think further than the length of their nose

[marsh cloak]

Okay I'll ask, @gritty spindle do you believe being gay is wrong?

[gritty spindle]

Just because I voiced a fact or (not even mine) opinion doesn't mean I 'support homophobia' you're out aswell

[shadow lodge]

Oh no the bigot doesn't like me

[fiery leaf]

Please stop poking each other

[gritty spindle]

No and I'm sorry if I made you feel that way

[fiery leaf]

It will get us nowhere

[marsh cloak]

Folks slinging insults does nothing, this goes for everyone here

[dull moth]

Do you believe mentioning that I'm gay is wrong?

[gritty spindle]

I'm going to have dinner. Thanks for 'taking the bait' and am glad that you took time to voice your thoughts

[dull moth]

Like right here, right now

[quick fable]

I'm glad you answered, could you please clarify what you meant by "I acceept LHTB, but I 'm not keen on it"?

[gritty spindle]

Not necessarily, I think its.. slighty out of place.. Just like me mentioning I'm straight or anything would make any sense if the conversation wasnt about it

I will be back,

[dull moth]

You've shared that you're Dutch several times. Because it is relevant.

[marsh cloak]

Is there a type of boardgame player you prefer to play with? Like if you prefer playing games with folks who are strategy gamers and don't enjoy playing games with people who prefer story games, that's relevant in the same way I prefer playing games with Trans people and I don't like playing games with bigots. If I can't say that I am Trans I can't find other trans people to play boardgames with like I want. The political nature of me being trans is not my choice, it's the choice of bigots who decide to make it a political matter and force me to debate my very existence every day

Imagine if I said that I don't believe Dutch people are real and that your just lying about being Dutch. And then when you tried to explain that you are in fact really Dutch I just said "Nah it's not possible, all dutch people are just Americans lying to push a political opinion down my throat, stop making this a political discussion". Then when you decided "alright I don't wanna interact with this person, I'd rather find someone who's dutch who knows that dutch people are real and who understands the cultural nuances of being Dutch" and make a message looking to play with someone who is dutch so that you know your not gonna run into someone like me who doesn't believe in dutch people, you get told "You're not allowed to talk about being Dutch here. The rules clearly state that talking about fetishes and sexuality and politics are not allowed"

That's the world I live in every day. I just want to be able to exist without having to defend my existence from everyone who thinks that it's political or an opinion

[gritty spindle]

😂😂 I'm pretty sure that I have done more good for the LHBT community (in my country and friend circle) than you will ever do..

Internet warrior damn

[shadow lodge]

Okay guess that balances out supporting bigotry in online spaces

[fiery leaf]

Take a step back both of you, hurling insults at each other helps no one

No matter who is in the wrong be the bigger person and don't continue it

[gritty spindle]

I like your new approach, its much less "long toes that get easily stepped on", and more "hey thats weird and contradicting to other things you said"

[fiery leaf]

So what did you mean by that?

[gritty spindle]

That Im not excited to learn or hear about anyones gender or identity. Regardless if its from LGBT or a straight person.

Being keen is like having excitement? And who you do or do not love doesn't interest me

[abstract tundra]

No, "not being keen" means you dislike it.

[fiery leaf]

Keen on it's own means excited. If you say you aren't keen on something it usually means you dislike it

[gritty spindle]

Or that it doesn't excite me

Just like a straight comment wouldnt excite me

[dull moth]

I'm not excited when you mention you are Dutch. It doesn't bother me if you slip it in.

[abstract tundra]

Dude, you're not a native speaker. Don't argue with people who are (not me) when they tell you what the thing you're saying actually means.

[gritty spindle]

Then dont cry when I use LHBT instead of LGBT

[dull moth]

I didn't.

[fiery leaf]

What I'm saying is that in English the phrase "I'm not keen on ...." tends to lean towards dislike just to make you aware

[gritty spindle]

I just gave you an explanation for why things may seem bold or out of reason.. If you can't put things in perspective, you should have never entered this debate

Next time we will debate in French okay?

Or German you choose

[fiery leaf]

What we are trying to say is that when someone tries to help you by telling you how people will read what you say and tells you what a phrase usually means, starting your response with "Or...." sounds like you are trying to correct someone.

[gritty spindle]

Merlinpig didn't try to help. He called me evil and a troll.

[fiery leaf]

Ok

[dull moth]

Again, this is all moot because the rules were made explicit. I can talk about my identity the same way you can talk about yours.

[gritty spindle]

And if someone is not interested it is not gay hate, or straight hate

[fiery leaf]

I cannot find merlinpig calling you evil. The closest I can find is Merlinpig saying you "are spouting rhetoric about the evil transes". That doesn't call you evil

[quick fable]

I never called you evil, I've already explained this

[abstract tundra]

True, but if you go from "I'm not interested" to "You're not allowed to talk about this because I don't like it", it's a little hateful.

[dull moth]

That's fine. If you're not interested, you can scroll on. If you feel an overwhelming need to call people on it, you can get banned. Period.

[fiery leaf]

No one is saying just ignoring it and not being interested is hate. What people are arguing against is the suppression of people talking about their identities for the sake of some other group

People don't want their identities to be unusual and stand out and politicised

[gritty spindle]

Its not just for the sake of some other group

It is for the sake of everyone that is there to play and find games, and not hear about your identity, unless maybe you identify as a chess king

[abstract tundra]

It is, though. You've repeatedly mentioned other groups (various flavors of bigots) as a reason for why the devs would ban this "controversial" subject.

[uneven sleet]

let's go apache attack helicopter memes hoooo

[abstract tundra]

You're acting like people are just saying "I'm gay" over and over again in the chat. That's not what happened, and I explained it to you. As for "identify as a chess king", that's a transphobic joke (literally the one joke transphobes know how to make).

If you're wondering why people think you're acting in bad faith, this is one of the reasons why.

[fiery leaf]

Oh for pete's sake. General chat is not some sacred place where there is a formal procedure for finding games. It is a chat. A trans person just mentioning they are themselves isn't ruining your day

[dull moth]

If you're having problems finding games, that's not because I'm telling you my identify, it's because you are having problems scrolling by.

[uneven sleet]

I actually hack into every game and change the name to "I'm gay"

[dull moth]

#looking-for-players Has a few people looking for people RIGHT NOW. The problem isn't this chat or these people.

[dull moth]

l33t hax aside.

[gritty spindle]

I agree that your voice should not be suppressed for who you are

If that wasn't obvious

[abstract tundra]

It isn't, because it's the opposite of what you've been saying. 🤷‍♂️

[gritty spindle]

I just personally think(maybe thats a level of open mindness you can only achieve if you above or below everyone else) that it doesnt matter to me who you are

[small cloak]

By that reasoning, it's not ban worthy

[small cloak]

And while it ought not to matter, pretending people aren't othered and attacked daily for their identities doesn't change what actually happens in reality to people.

[fiery leaf]

Ok. Sort this out for me. I said "What people are arguing against is the suppression of people talking about their identities for the sake of some other group" and your response wasn't that you agree people shouldn't be suppressed it was to argue exactly why people are being suppressed "Its not just for the sake of some other group. It is for the sake of everyone that is there to play and find games, and not hear about your identity, unless maybe you identify as a chess king". Why was that your response?

[dull moth]

Cool, then just don't comment on it and you'll be fine

[gritty spindle]

Am I digging my own grave by trying to have an open discussion while balancing on a cord with the pit of banhammers on both sides?

If the goal of this discussion is to try and prove bigotry from my side then I think it is wise to end the debate with respect. I am on your side

[fiery leaf]

No one is trying to prove you are a bigot, people want to understand why you've said the things you've said.

[small cloak]

🙄

You said dumb things and got disagreed with. Good lord.

The rule was poorly written and poorly enforced. There's no two ways about it. Per the rule, discussion of the highly popular Spirit Island was "balancing on a cord with the pit of banhammers" because it's about repelling explicitly European colonizers lest they irreparably "Blight" an island and kill its people. And that's before we get into the mess that is lumping in gender and sexuality with "politics" and "fetishes".

[uneven sleet]

Then why not just agree that the ToS of TTS was unevenly enforced and the original purpose the chat is not what it was used for nearly at all- then the bans they choose to make matter. Banning someone for saying they're trans sticks out because of the lack of enforcement on other non-related TTS discussion that was allowed to go on. Therefore that bans merit on just being against ToS is found lacking on most sides. It would be like getting arrested for jaywalking and held for 48 hours without charge and then released when you were crossing with a whole crowd.

So at that point we say: okay so the ban over someone talking about their trans is due to hypersensitivity to someone identifying as that which was double downed on by the mods themselves who then botched it even worse by ACCIDENTALLY trying to compare it to categories of Fetishes, Sexualities, and Politics- none of which it is and ALL OF WHICH have bad historical precedent with trying to associate with the trans identity

Which takes the already bad situation from bad to even worse

[marsh cloak]

I'm still pretty uncomfortable with this transphobic joke. Regardless of if you meant it that way you still made it and it makes you look like you're just trying to bait us into arguing with you

[uneven sleet]

It's not the hard to figure- Okay so if the company is okay with off-topic conversation, and that it's good to let the community interact in-client outside of lobbies, maybe it's best to take down global and replace it with a better more moderated system with better autoflagging

This is ALL without if you think trans people are valid or not

you dont need to think that in order for all of this to make sense

Because at the end of the day- does it actually matter if being trans is a choice or whatever? It's not harmful to the tabletop community, which is already a large gathering point for social minorities since it's a niche hobby- I wrote my sociology thesis on this.

What is harmful are people attacking eachother in that community or banning out those identities that don't do any harm- being a bigot/protesting trans peoples presence in the space is bad because it hurts the community, it demands the abdication of the space by a group that does no harm and contributes positive utility to it

Like you said 'being trans doesn't matter' so why make it matter

[gritty spindle]

This is why I prefer to make music. Its much easier to understand eachother and create harmony

[uneven sleet]

I think a core part about TTS that people fail to see in this argument is that a discussion of your fellow players is a part of Tabletop Simulator, me asking people how they're doing is a part of being in the community and participating in it as much as asking peoples favorite 1v3 board games

So if a player wants to share they're trans, cool, I'm glad to have them with me in the community and Im happy for their presence playing games with me- if I learn nothing about them outside the fact that they're a degenerate Tau player, sick!

That's all.

[dull moth]

Do I need to know if someone is LGBT to interact with them in a game? No. Does it make my experience playing with them better and more memorable? Yes. I like knowing who I'm playing with.

[marsh cloak]

My main question for you Youri is why does your opinion on LGBT issues matter more than the opinions and voices of the LGBT people that you're talking to in this chat.

We've repeated tried to explain why we are upset and why this matter is important to us and why this is a topic that should be important to anyone who claims they are supportive to LGBTQIA+ people, and every time we've been met with you saying that because you don't care about it none of us should and then implying that because we're upset you're better than us

[gritty spindle]

Feel free to leave the discussion if you think its bait, or if I give you the phobia feeling

[small cloak]

Hahahah first the melancholic vagueposting and now a "the door's right there" response? You're a trip.

[marsh cloak]

I'm genuinely curious why you think your opinions and your voice are more important than ours given that, as far as I can tell, you are not a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. I dont have a firm grasp of the person you are yet and I'm trying to learn more and figure out where you stand

[gritty spindle]

I asked for a simple discussion but for everything I say I get 10 different responses from everybody.. I get tangled up in replying to everybody in good faith and the moment I misphraze anything I can rinse and repeat the process of replying to 10 different people

[marsh cloak]

I'm just looking for a simple answer, it seems like you think that your opinion on LGBTQIA+ topic is more important than the opinion of the LGBTQIA+ people you are talking to and I want to know why you think you matter more when it's honestly a topic that doesn't effect you

[gritty spindle]

Who says I'm not part of the same community?

Whats that for generalization??

[marsh cloak]

Okay are you a member of the LGBTQIA community?

[gritty spindle]

Just because I advocate against propagating your feelings always and everywhere

[gritty spindle]

Probably, but I don't care to go into detail

[dull moth]

being Gay is not a feeling. Just like being Dutch is not a feeling.

[gritty spindle]

This is the closest and most sensefull explanation Ive seen so far, related to my question that started this thread in the first place

[gritty spindle]

It does affect me.. You have no idea.. But I choose to walk other paths than you

[fiery leaf]

I did try to explain it simply earlier in direct answer to the question that started this thread but I guess is got lost amongst everything else

[gritty spindle]

In dealing with the same situation

[quartz yoke]

has a listen

[fiery leaf]

Was that meant to be an answer or a dismissal? In case replies break this message #931179879548993577 message was in response to this message #931179879548993577 message

[gritty spindle]

I have read everything and replied to most things.. But things don't get more managable when everybody is eager to jump in and voice their opinion, or 5 different arguments to a single thing I said

[fiery leaf]

I agree

It wasn't meant to be a slight at you

[quartz yoke]

can I ask where the conversation is at now?

(and if there's a better thread regarding the queer stuff?)

[gritty spindle]

I failed to understand the relation and the question so I didn't answer because I didn't know what you meant. So I didnt reply to prevent myself from saying something that would make things more complicated

[abstract tundra]

Still trying to explain to Youri177 why it's not OK to blame LGBT people for bigots losing their mind when someone mentions they're LGBT.

[marsh cloak]

You still haven't answered my question about why your opinion matters more than mine. This is a matter that is very important to me because it directly effects me, because of that I've been very clear that I am a Trans lesbian who is member of the LGBTQIA+ community because I want my opinion to be viewed with the weight of someone who is directly and personally effected by the outcome and the situation. Your messages up until now have led me to believe you are not a member of the community due to comments like "I'm not keen on LGHB people".

You suddenly backpedaling and being wishy-washy about why you care makes it seem like you are just trying to cause trouble.

I'm not trying to out you, I'm not trying to say that you get no voice on the matter. I do want to know why you believe that your voice is more important than the voices of everyone else in this chat.

[quartz yoke]

oh that sounds simple. LGBT people are a marginalized group of people and should be protected.

When bigots react the way they do, they do so to scare people in charge to remove all mention of LGBT folks and their issues, and representation in their communities.

which ultimately benefits bigots and harms LGBT people's representation, ability to talk about their issues, etc

[abstract tundra]

Nope, not good enough, apparently. I tried using an analogy with someone going on a murderous rampage every time gaming is mentioned and what the response should be, but it was basically glossed over with a simple "I understand", followed by comments that showed they did not, in fact, understand anything.

[marsh cloak]

I'm being very plain and clear with my question because you have repeated said that what we have said shouldn't matter because you don't care about peoples identities so no one should. Even ignoring the fact that most of the people you are speaking to in here are some flavor of queer, why does your voice matter more than 10 of ours?

[quick fable]

I do think it's best if the people actively discussing in this thread remains small. I understand the temptation to get involved (and have fallen prey to it myself) but it's never going to work if everybody is trying to talk to Youri at once.

[quartz yoke]

well in any case is there a better queer thread. I noticed there was one archived which was talking about gender. I'm happy to share what I have with regards to that. it doesn't look like it's moderator archived

[abstract tundra]

This is the only currently active one, as far as I know.

[marsh cloak]

You could start a new thread to talk about it if ya want! I'm always happy to discuss the topic!

[dull moth]

Threads, no. The pin up at the top of #tts-discussion has some good context.

[quartz yoke]

I see this one: #930191330112581732 message

it's archived but it's still there and "necroable"

[dull moth]

hold on, I'll dm you.

[fiery leaf]

Yeah, let's try and swing this back to the original point

[marsh cloak]

I still want an answer, we've been over the original point and Jay very concisely explained why this is happening.

[gritty spindle]

I never said my opinion matters more than yours.

[quartz yoke]

i think it may be possible to not get an answer.

Ultimately it does take effort to educate people about why making your fandom inclusive matters.
be it to queer people or other marginalized communities.

Nobody honestly owes Youri an explanation especially if you don't believe it's beneficial or worthwhile.

i put forward that any discussion that one has with anyone, argument or whatnot, requires two things.
That it be positive for both parties to continue and constructive.

Has this conversation been positive and constructive for you folks involved here?

if it hasn't then maybe there are other people one can talk to where it would be a more positive or constructive experience

[marsh cloak]

You never said the words directly but when we said "Here's why this is a problem, here is why we are upset" you have replied by saying "But I don't see it as a problem"

[marsh cloak]

Honestly I'm not trying to engage in bad faith, but also I'm not about to just shrug and move on from a discussion where someone is hiding behind changed subjects and moved goalposts. If Youri is here to engage in good faith then they need to stop minimizing the harm that was done and stop trying to debate the fact that queer people being silenced is a bad thing.

[gritty spindle]

That is a bad thing, I never disagreed on that

[quartz yoke]

i'm not saying you're engaging in bad faith, what i've asked is, is this a positive and constructive discussion for you? :p

[marsh cloak]

So far they have just argued against almost every point we have brought up and made several statements and jokes that are at best tasteless and at worst actively bigoted

[gritty spindle]

Mostly, its just very difficult to debate 10 people at once, when people constantly try to take of my so called mask

[marsh cloak]

Ehh I don't mind sticking to my guns, I feel it's constructive to hold people accountable and try to get them to take a more careful look at what their internalized bias's may be

[quartz yoke]

i can understand that.

[quartz yoke]

well as long as you're enjoying yourself!

[abstract tundra]

You're the first and only person to mention "mask".

[gritty spindle]

Sheep in wolves clothes reference, is it that hard to find connections?

[abstract tundra]

Did anyone else say anything of the sort?

[marsh cloak]

Look man, I'm not trying to trap you, I'm not trying to unmask you or anything. I'm just a little frustrated because you seem to think that we are making too big a deal about everything that has happened and I want you to take a look at why you think that and maybe confront a few learned bias's you didn't realize you had. I don't think you're a bad person if you say something wrong or accidentally hurt someone, I think your a bad person if you do that and then double down without learning from it and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again

[gritty spindle]

Im trying to reply to your question Cass, without upsetting anyone (unintentionally) while breaking the loop weve been in. So far I can only do one of those..

[quartz yoke]

do you have energy to try with one other person?

[gritty spindle]

Sure rather 1 than 10

But I feel I should respond to the open discussion first, But im struggling to find a good argument. Not because I dont have it, but because I don't want to rephrase or hurt again

[quartz yoke]

Well i can't control what others type but i can try focusing on why i've said over the others.

[marsh cloak]

I'll take a step back then, I hope this is constructive and you come out of it a better person than you were before 💖

(I just realized how passive aggressive that sounds, that was intended as a genuine statement, I wish you both the best!)

[quartz yoke]

can i check again what was the original question that you wanted answered?

and if that question has changed since then?

I guess what's the current question you're trying to answer? ^^

[abstract tundra]

Why it matters that LGBT people aren't allowed to say they're LGBT.

[marsh cloak]

Let's let Olivia take a crack at it Orion

One person at a time like Youri is asking

[gritty spindle]

You can call me anything you want, its easy for me to set it aside since you don't know me and my values. Just like bigots don't know you or your intentions. Let the bad things slide and make the good things stick. There is only one true judge to your spirit and that is yourself. I acknowledge that this doesn't take away the fact that you can't let anything slide if its not allowed in the first place

[gritty spindle]

Unpopular opinion maybe.. But I don't care if you're straight gay black or white.. I'm interested in whether you want to play a game with me or not.. Regardless of your sexual idenity, religious belief, or political motivation..
So who cares.. You play a game with someone, and if you enjoy.. you continue playing. If you don't like the person or the way he plays, you stop playing. Why support the mindset of thinking in boxes like the people who attack LHBT culture always do.
I came to Tabletop to play and discover games, not to witness some LHBT drama..
From my perspective, the only thing that matters is if you know the rules of the game, can communicate with respect, and just have a fun time. What does your sexual identity have to with playing a game?

[marsh cloak]

I'm letting Olivia reply to you, but I didn't call you anything

[gritty spindle]

I know and Im not offended

[marsh cloak]

???

[quartz yoke]

ah so there's several things here.

okay let me see...

there's a phrase, called colourblindness that's something that can describe the first sentence.
You believe that one's background is not important to know when playing a game with someone.

The second point supports that but I'm not sure I understand it. Is it that if one was not "colourblind" if one recognizes the various identities that one holds, be it race, or sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, it would be the same as what anti-lgbt people do?

[gritty spindle]

I dont mean to say that LGBT drama is unjustified in this case. I think there are places to discuss those things, and there are places to keep things 'simple'. And I think a tabletop chat is a place where things should be simple.

[quartz yoke]

hold up i'm still catching up ^^ just making sure i understand the first set of sentences
let's go through this one at a time alright? can i get a few confirmations on whether I understood you correctly?

[vagrant needle]

Youri177 you are missing the point
Tabletop Simulator is more than playing board games, it's a chance to socialize with other people. Depending on the group, LGBTQ+ or Culture can come up, like discussing certain media or events.
The problem people are having is that ANYTHNG related to them is banned because "Politics" even though all they want to do is socialize

[marsh cloak]

Kobold, were trying to keep cross talk to a minimum so Youri isn't overwhelmed by us all responding, let Olivia take the lead here

[vagrant needle]

oh sorry

[marsh cloak]

No worries!

[gritty spindle]

Im all yours

[quartz yoke]

great! i just need to confirm these two points.

[gritty spindle]

The first one I agree with, the second one I find hard to understand. But I think you mean what I said. Not playing with someone who is gay is just as bad as not playing with someone who isn't gay, if he has no means to insult you, do any harm, or not be understanding to your situation.

Its framing and categorizing people, and I think that is wrong

[quartz yoke]

okay so simply put, categorizing people is wrong?

would that be an apt summary of what you meant?

[gritty spindle]

Yes

[quartz yoke]

okay

okay so the third point is about your aims in the Tabletop sim community (to play tabletop games and chew bubblegum and you're all outta gum)

you aim doesn't include learning about the drama that happened recently that involved a person who is queer/ part of the LGBTQ+ community

and that you have learnt that the drama occured, has... made you feel uncomfortable?

Have I got that right?

[gritty spindle]

I dont get the gum reference, but yes. Its a place aimed to play and bind people through the common thing we all enjoy: games.

[quartz yoke]

and that you would rather things be focused on just the games you want to play.

[gritty spindle]

I feel sorry for that person, and the way the situation has been handled. Its not inclusive. But in my experience, there is no place to look without seeing bigotry in a way or another. So to pull the emergency break and demand acceptance always and everywhere when it happens is just unreasonable for the 95% that didn't really care in the first place.

And that unsettles me in a way. There is always some injustice done to someone or some group. But is the solution to lock down everything and everyone that has always operated in good faith?

[quartz yoke]

when you say lock down, are you referring to the public lfg chat in the game being closed temporarily for the time being?

[quartz yoke]

i have read this and recognize that you understand what happened was not inclusive. (and wrong) but given that most if not all spaces are not inclusive, in your opinion, it would be better to not demand acceptance, to rock the boat if you will, if it'll affect the enjoyment of the majority of others who are unaware or do not care about inclusion.

[gritty spindle]

I havent been on tabletop for a long time, so im not really in the position to judge on (the intentions of) global chat. But how I experienced the situation is that a few persons (with very rightfull concerns) changed the way others can interact with something because they wanted to make a (rightful) point. But do they really think that this drama will change any bigots mind? Or does it just upset everyone that has never had bad intentions for them. While the trolls laugh that everyone is now restricted in a chat they poisoned for the sake of grief. Now everyone is in grief, you lose, I lose, they win

[gritty spindle]

Yes

[quartz yoke]

okay.

I think i understand your opinion.

I don't think it's a bad opinion.
I think it's something a lot of people, regardless of whether they're gay or trans or a woman or disabled, would want,
to just focus on the game that they enjoy without having to worry about how their identities are going to affect the game

[gritty spindle]

Don't rock the boat when it can sink and drag everyone with you. Do blow the bomb when you are on shore and you have the whole world to watch

[quartz yoke]

Now that I understand your opinion. I do have to ask, what do you want to do with this opinion?

What's the goal in mind, what are you trying to do with it or what question are you trying to answer with these opinions as a starting point?

what would you like me to help you with regarding these opinions you've shared with me?

[gritty spindle]

I want it to match it with other views and opinions, and get insight in why I would be bigot for preferring a peacefull situation, instead of a situation where you are forced to show your identity card to be able to be accepted or play a certain game with a certain group

[quick fable]

Can I interject on this?

[quartz yoke]

alright, but be aware it is a slow process that I'm taking

[gritty spindle]

Not forcefully forced, but figuratively.. Say: there is only one lobby for a chesa game but it is specially looking for LGBT players.. I feel excluded or forced to share my identity.. For what, a game of chess? What are we here for, categorizing people or sharing a common thing we enjoy

[quartz yoke]

i'll need to be right back but keep typing to me, and i'll have a read when i'm back

[quick fable]

Thanks. The reason that you saying "Don't rock the boat when it can sink and drag everyone with you" you are putting the blame for rocking the boat on LGBT people, rather than those harassing them. This is a large part of what people will take issue with. You are blaming the people who have the immutable characteristic, rather than the people who have the mutable belief which makes them hateful towards that characteristic.

[gritty spindle]

Thank you for taking the time to discuss with me

[gritty spindle]

I don't blame anyone for calling out injustice. Its what I live for actually.

[quartz yoke]

when you say match it with other views and opinions, are you trying to figure out why your views are different from others?

and the "peaceful situation" you said, would that be where... the person who experienced discrimination recently, doesn't mention they were discriminated or would it be something else??

[gritty spindle]

To stay within the illustration: there is no point in rocking the boat when the problem isn't on board

But yeah, the problem was in the chat, and it was with the way it was moderated.. So maybe it was on board

But still was it worth sinking the boat when the other solution was to throw the clowns overboard?

[quick fable]

but then this is the same problem. LGBT people didn't rock the boat. In this metaphor, the trolls rocked the boat, Beserk games decided to sink it rather than fix the moderation (at least for the time being)

[marsh cloak]

It's hard to throw a clown overboard without rocking the boat at all

[gritty spindle]

Yes. I decided for myself that there is a place to fight for certain causes and there is a place to accept things how they are. How can anyone still be genuinely be upset by a troll if all the troll does is bad, and all you do is good.

[quartz yoke]

Who are you referring to as the troll here? Sorry new terms I have to check meaning

[gritty spindle]

Well what Ive seen in the document from Xoe was that see made several accounts in which see explored the limits of the auto-ban to try and find something the devs could be framed on to be homophobic. I acknowledge that these actions came after efforts to try and reach out to the Dev team by mail

[gritty spindle]

No no its called moderation and its a simple click and the troll is gone

[quick fable]

You make it sound as though she was trying to trick somebody into being homophobic rather than proving that homophobic policies were in place

[quick fable]

I also think this is a gross simplification, especially when the controversy is about moderation problems

[marsh cloak]

Remember to let Olivia take the lead on this Merlinpig, were trying to make sure we don't Dogpile Youri

[gritty spindle]

Trolls are people who intent harm to others for who they are.. Usually they only voice these opinions on the internet.. To you know.. Troll and watch the show

[quick fable]

Cass is right and I'll stop. I also think I should take a moment to apologise. I don't believe you are acting in bad faith, and I shouldn't have been so quick to dismiss you. I strongly disagree with you and think you've bought into some disgusting conspiracies (the gay agenda isn't real), and hope people can convince you of that.

So I am sorry for how I acted

[gritty spindle]

You made some valid points and Im thankfull for that. Im glad you changed from an attacking stance to a more supportive stance. Not supporting me, but the discussion. And that is something that we can be both proud of

I don't see how I said anything about gay conspiracy agenda's. But if there is a place to make some real gains against it, its certainly not (the discord of) TTS

[quartz yoke]

That's not what I asked

[quartz yoke]

In this message, I'm trying to understand what you meant in reply to trying to confirm that your goal today is you want to figure out why your views are different from others.

Maybe we go back to that, is this your goal to find out why your views are different from others?

[marsh cloak]

It's easy to get really heated and defensive and we(being queer folks here on the TTS discord) have been dealing with people coming in and arguing in bad faith and attacking us directly for almost a week now so you gotta give us a bit of leeway, we're on a bit of a short fuse/hair trigger. It's important to make sure we're taking breaks and being calm

[quartz yoke]

do you have a different goal?
In otherwise, what do you want me to help you with?

Think of answering it by starting with the phrase,

"I want you to help me ...." And then continue

E.g. Do you want me to help you understand something? Convince you of something? Tell you my opinion of something?

Etc

[gritty spindle]

I want to know what went wrong with the moderation that this exploded the way it did. I cannot believe Berserk has homophobic intentions, but thats just a feeling based on my feelings rather than facts

[quartz yoke]

Well okay you want to know what specifically went wrong with beserk.

I don't think I can answer what's going on internally, but I can share what I understand from reading what's publicly available as much as anyone can

Would you like that?

[gritty spindle]

Was it obvious harassement to a person or group. Or was it just a single bad statement or phraze that is easily and happily used against them.

Ive been called out many times too today for not carefully picking my words, or sometimes just using them wrong. What I mean to say is, there is always a way to be hurt if youre looking for it.

[quartz yoke]

What would you like me to do?

[gritty spindle]

Could you summarize the mistake the moderators made, in relation to the rules that have been set?

[quartz yoke]

I can't. Because the mistakes made have to do with how the rules were set

And how they were enforced

I guess I can, I just about it in relation to the rules right?

[gritty spindle]

So were the rules homophobic and not inclusive?

[quartz yoke]

The rules weren't homophobic.

But they were not inclusive.

There is no rule that I would expect about not discriminating against people based on a characteristic, like gender sexuality, race etc

The problem however is not specifically that such rules do not currently exist

Though I reckon it's a contributing factor or a symptom of the real issue, the admin-moderation team who set out these rules to begin with

[marsh cloak]

The problem is a combination of rules that were not well laid out then made worse by uneven enforcement/poorly thought out apologies and statements by the moderation team and Berserk.
I can try to break down the specific incidents if you like but it's a lot of little things that combined to make a bigger problem

[gritty spindle]

Can you give a specific example according to the rules?

[quartz yoke]

I did

[quartz yoke]

^

Oh there is a no racist rule. As such it only covers race.

[marsh cloak]

I believe what Olivia is saying is that the problem is not a specific rule the do have, but more that there is NOT a rule to cover protecting LGBTQIA+ people

[gritty spindle]

I see. And why isn't this been solved in the first year of release? Its kinda dumb to think that hate only comes from racism

[marsh cloak]

It's not that there was a rule that was saying "It's okay to be a bigot" but instead that there was not a rule that said "Bigotry is not allowed"

[marsh cloak]

This is a large part of the reason we are upset, it's a pretty big hole in policy that has given people who want to do harm a foothold, and when we asked the team at Berserk about it they mishandeled the situation

[dull moth]

You're getting close to understanding why people were (and are) so upset.

[gritty spindle]

And no one made a real deal about it before?

[quartz yoke]

That is the big question

I have my opinions about it

But it's all supposition

[quartz yoke]

Remember what you said about 95% of people not caring

It's because it doesn't affect them. Most people don't seek to change things that don't directly affect them.

[gritty spindle]

I know LGBT communities are loved and feared for their faithfulness.. They will support your company if your good but if you lose the trust you'll never get it back

[quartz yoke]

Queer people represent 5% of any given population

It varies for internet communities

But generally queer people are a minority in a community. Especially one devoted to gaming

[gritty spindle]

But if the argument is valid, the percentages doesn't matter.. And if it really was that bad all the time.. Why call it out now?

[quartz yoke]

It's been called out before apparently

There's a Reddit post talking about this issue

The difference now is people are listening

And the person who called it out collected a lot of data and presented their case very well

It's something that takes a lot of effort to do

[gritty spindle]

But was it backed by the (LGBT) community the way it is now? If not, why not?

[quartz yoke]

And not everyone is able to do that.

[gritty spindle]

Its the same injustice

[quartz yoke]

What do you mean by backed?

[marsh cloak]

A lot of the time when queer people try to point out problematic behavior we are accused of making it up, fortunately this time the person had enough evidence that people couldn't dismiss it and just brush it under the rug

[gritty spindle]

Supported massively

[quartz yoke]

And you have to remember the problem was systemic. It was the moderation team

The people with a lot of power

It is difficult to go up against the people who have power over your continued enjoyment of the game

[marsh cloak]

We love this game, that is part of why we are fighting so hard for it to be more inclusive, and a lot of us didn't realize that the problem was as bad as it was because a lot of us try to avoid public chats for exactly this reason. Largely we are hit with hate and bigotry when we try to exist

[quartz yoke]

The issue wasn't as well know to people then. But I can't speak for the table top LGBT community... It's not like an organized committee

Generally queer people want to be included

And don't want to be discriminated against

[quartz yoke]

So this is what you wanted us to do. To explain the mistakes made as best we can

Have we done that?

[gritty spindle]

There is no other game where you can play games the way you can in tabletop. So I support your cause to be open and included in the community. And its a shame that it hasnt been done before

[quartz yoke]

Yay

We did it

[gritty spindle]

I have another question

[marsh cloak]

Yeah, they have the market cornered right now on digital tabletop gaming so that's the other reason we're fighting so hard, we have no where else to go so our options are demand Berserk do better(Which we have and are now waiting for their next move) or not play boardgames on a Virtual Table Top

[marsh cloak]

Hit us with it!

[gritty spindle]

Why does it feel to me that when I engaged in this discussion, it could either be black or white, left of right or right or wrong.
When I said something that didn't directly promote a more open LGBT agenda, but rather aimed towards keeping the peace in favor of not having arguments. Why does that make me transphobic?

When I say I dont want to hear your (sexual) identity, its not because I dont support you for who you are. But rather because I think that it is not related to the common thing we are both here for

[marsh cloak]

It doesn't necessarily make you transphobic, but part of the issue is that a lot of transphobic people have been coming here to say "I don't wanna hear about your icky gender sex stuff you perverts, keep your gross pedo hands away from our family game!" So we are a bit quick to judge. Largely if someone says the stuff you've said it's intended in a harmful way(like the example I gave) so we tend to respond strongly. It's also a very privileged point of view to have, because a lot of us doing get a choice about it, people will call us out or be bigoted towards us with no provocation so when you say that you don't understand why we wouldn't just keep quite cause it's not related its hurtful, since a lot of us have it brought up by bigots and trolls without us trying

Does that kinda make sense? Basically because of our past experiences we figured you were trying to hurt us because you were saying the same things as a lot of the people who have already so we were on the defensive

[meager vapor]

It makes you seem transphobic because transphobes can use that same argument just to get any mention of trans people out of their game

[quick fable]

I think it's also important to be clear. You absolutely did say some homophobic/transphobic things. Nobody is forcing you to hang up a rainbow flag, or teaching kids about 5125 genders before they learn to read. To claim as much is not only ridiculous, it feeds into many of the false and hurtful claims. This doesn't necessarily make you a bad person, but it's something that can't be ignored.

[marsh cloak]

The statement about identifying as a Chess King was a transphobic joke, even if you didn't intend it to be read that way

[gritty spindle]

But isn't that hurting your own community? Like I've said already, not everyone is out there to get you. But also not everyone will roll out a red carpet for you. I felt antagonized while trying to change my mind in a faithfull way. Because I knew this wasn't a drama for the sake of drama, but as I've said earlier aswell I have several examples in my life where the LGBT agenda is forced, while in fact, most people were already very tolerant or just indifferent about it.

[marsh cloak]

You can't blame us for your behavior, you were antagonizing us whether you meant to or not. You were trying to learn and engage in good faith but you were using statements and arguments that have been used to excuse hurting us in the past to do so

You're not a bad person because of this, but the fact that you did cause harm with your words can't be glossed over. While most people may be outwardly tolerant culture and society has many unconscious bias's and behaviors that are learned without meaning to and need to be unlearned. Unlearning them is part of being an Ally and being a good person, it's acknowledging that you hurt someone and taking steps to make sure you don't do it again

I've accidentally hurt people and I've accidentally been transphobic because of internalized societal pressures and unconscious bias's that I've had to unlearn. It's a part of being a person is growing and learning from your mistakes

[gritty spindle]

I will not prove myself right, you can do your research and find out for yourself. Some right wing politicians have been called out the problem of teaching preschool children about the gendercook, when more thab half of the class isn't even capable or writing normally .

[gritty spindle]

Not saying teaching about that theres more than just a man or woman is a problem

[marsh cloak]

This is transphobic propaganda. Also kids are more than capable of understanding the concepts of gender and being trans before the can learn to read or write

[gritty spindle]

But I am saying that its not how a child should be educated. They should learn to write and read. They should learn to accept humans for who they are or want to be.

[marsh cloak]

Right-wing politicians, especially here in America, are literally just Nazis in about 95% of situations. Twitter literally can't tell the difference between rightwing politicians and white supremacists with it's anti-hate algorithm

[gritty spindle]

No I dont think kids are capable of understanding gender queens, two spirits or pansexuals when they can't even form a normal sentence.

[marsh cloak]

And part of learning to accept people is learning about how people might choose to identify. Knowledge is power and just teaching kids stuff like math and spelling won't help them be a better person, teaching them about people will

[marsh cloak]

This is incorrect. I knew I wasn't a boy before I could write. Children are much smarter than you're giving them credit for, this is coming from someone who was a substitute teacher and has worked with many young children

[marsh cloak]

Also Pansexuality isn't a gender. Gender and Sexuality are two different things.

[gritty spindle]

I disagree, I think learning to read is important so you can inform yourself and form your own opinions. Even if that opinion eventually doesn't go in your favor. Even if that opinion is not based on facts but rather on 'belly' feelings.

[marsh cloak]

I'm not saying reading isn't important, I'm saying that children can learn about gender before they are able to read or write. Concepts are much easier than writing and reading.

And that learning about gender is important

Learning to read and learning to form your own opinions are also not the same thing

[quick fable]

I also think the two things don't conflict. Kids can easily learn about both.

additionally, kids learn all sorts of useless shit in school. If you don't think being LGBTQ is a problem, why don't you make a big deal out of those things?

[abstract tundra]

To add to this: I knew I was bi before puberty (ever since I started school, actually), but the fact that nobody told me it was a thing caused me severe anxiety for years because I knew I wasn't gay, and yet I liked guys.

[marsh cloak]

I didn't have the words for being a girl instead of a boy until I was in my 20s because I never learned it was an option. Like I knew in a general sense but I just had never had someone explain it to me

[gritty spindle]

Good points good points

[marsh cloak]

Sex Ed, gender studies, and actual life skills(like how to pay taxes and cook food) are classes/subjects that public schools need to focus on more

[quick fable]

And again, I think everybody has biases and views that are harmful which they don't even realise they hold (definitely including me).

[gritty spindle]

Definitively

[marsh cloak]

(side note I've been fucking up the plural of bias this whole conversation and only just now realized lol)

[quick fable]

I honestly wouldn't have noticed if you didn't say anything lol.

[marsh cloak]

Curses Snaps fingers

[abstract tundra]

Yeah, I didn't wanna say anything. It's incredibly common that people use 's to write plurals, for some reason.

[marsh cloak]

I have been made to look the fool!

(It's all good, I'm just bad at English and it's my first/only language)

[gritty spindle]

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didnt want to do so on purpose, but I also refrained from phrazing everything extra careful, to cross-check my statements according to your reactions. For me this a good way to keep my mind in check and correct radical thoughts that I developed due to experiences I had in my life.

[quick fable]

I really don't think your phrasing was the problem

unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by phrasing

because to me, when you say your phrasing was the problem, it implies that the content of what you said was not. I can't speak for others, but I have a problem with the content of what you said when you said things like people forcing you to wear rainbows or teaching children about multiple genders. I know you've acknowledged that you have learned some things about that and I appreciate that, but it doesn't change what you originally said.

[gritty spindle]

But how do you know so sure that I havent been in a situation where I was forced to wear rainbow colored clothing for promoting LGBT acceptance? They don't literally force you, but if you decline you are transphobic thats the reality

Do some research about LGBT culture in the Netherlands and you will find some examples. Its nothing too dramatic, but I dont bother to be lend for some promotion when I already accept all and everything. There's a saying in Dutch: act normal and you're already crazy enough. So if someone feels like they want to promotoe it, they can, but they don't have to use me for it.

[quick fable]

just checking, can you clarify what you mean when you say "promote it"?

[gritty spindle]

I think the argument is going to a yes no situation and that costs us both unnecessary energy. Im gonna ask what I wanted to ask already for a long time: does anyone want to play a game with me?

[gritty spindle]

wearing rainbow color on LGBT day is is kind of promoting something.

[quick fable]

what is it promoting in your eyes?

[gritty spindle]

Raising awareness (in favor of)

Its not a bad thing, but you can't expect a sober person to dress up colorfull if I just want to wear black or red

We have rainbow colored crosswalks in town and I like to see them and use them

[quick fable]

ok, I thought that might be what you meant and wanted to check. To be clear, if you say that people are "promoting it" in this context, most English speaking people will think you mean promoting being gay and trying to make more people be gay

[gritty spindle]

Thats not how any of it works 🤦‍♂️

But I understand now that that is how it can be interpreted

[quick fable]

I figured that wasn't what you meant which is why I wanted to check, but generally that's what the interpretation will be as that's how it's most commonly used in English in this context

[gritty spindle]

If you would get to know me better you would probably discover we have more things in common than you'd hope for

[quick fable]

and maybe you are right about this being something we simply can't agree on. and I've not looked into what you are talking about in the Netherlands, but the same claims of people being "forced" to wear rainbows are made in the US and UK. They are never true. The headlines and articles will read about how people were "forced" to wear them and the actual letter will say something along the lines of "hey, if you could wear a rainbow (whether in a flag, scarf or whatever) to support our colleagues, that would be great"

[gritty spindle]

But do you agree that refusing that is not transphobic or against LGBT agenda

[quick fable]

I don't believe it's transphobic or anti-LGBT. I wear pretty much only black and personally don't like wearing any colour. but at the same time, if I was asked to wear one to support LGBT people, I would do it. it costs me absolutely nothing to wear it, and it helps others.

If somebody refuses to wear one, I'm not going to think they are anti-LGBT, but I am going to wonder why they won't wear it. It's such a small thing to ask of somebody, and if somebody won't even put in that tiny amount of effort to support LGBT people, I'm going to be uncertain of what that reason is.

[gritty spindle]

The reason can be as simple as, not identifying with a colorful outfit, and not feeling comfortable with it. But the fact the others are then suspicious of those unknown motivations is troubling to me and part of why I said 'not keen on the culture'.
It is very annoying to have to 'constantly' explain you have nothings against the culture, but also nothing with rainbows or colors. That is what I hear from many people(not transphobics at all) and it includes a part of how I feel towards it. I'm open for anybody to be themselves but if the group that I have always been open to questions my morale multiple times for not openly supporting them, and thus drawing unjust conclusions than it makes me fed up with the group eventually. Not because I think they cant be who they are, but rather because they cant accept me for who I am or how I choose to present myself.

Do you understand that this has nothing to do with the underlying identity people have, but rather on the actions they make

If I have to defend myself 10 times, the next time I wil think: figure it out yourself.. You attack me, I dont defend you.. You didn't think I was honest to you, now I wont be supportive also because trust goes both ways

[quick fable]

the thing is, if you won't even wear a tiny piece of colourful clothing to support somebody, do you actually support them?

LGBT people are expected to be friendly and kind towards Hetero/Cis people despite actual literal real abuse, ranging from verbal to murder. and yet somebody asking you why you won't wear a rainbow makes you annoyed with LGBT people?

"If I have to defend myself 10 times, the next time I wil think: figure it out yourself.. You attack me, I dont defend you.. You didn't think I was honest to you, now I wont be supportive also because trust goes both ways"

Apply this to the conversations you've had joining this server. LGBT people are forced to justify not just something as simple as wearing a flag, but their very existence, every single day.

You've come here and asked questions that every LGBT person has answered over and over and over

[gritty spindle]

Yes because support is not wearing a piece of dyed cloth, its about standing behind the people when they need it

Wearing rainbow literally does nothing because bigots will be bigots and the rest didn't care how you identify in the first place, I believe

So whats the real support, wearing rainbow, or taking action on the street when you see someone is being harassed?

So wearing a rainbow will stop bigots from hate crimes? Come on..

[quick fable]

So I can understand the argument that wearing a rainbow doesn't precipitate real change at a societal level. I don't agree with it, but i don't understand it.

What I feel you are missing however, is that this normalises being LGBT. Many people in these communities are told from birth that it's wrong, and a sin, and evil to be any of these things. People around them wearing pins, flags, whatever, normalises it. It reassures people, it makes them feel like maybe they aren't an abomination. It can change lives to have people around you visibly show support.

[gritty spindle]

You never had to answer my questions if you didn't want to.

[quick fable]

I could just as easily say you never have to answer if somebody asks why you won't wear a rainbow

[gritty spindle]

Yes but they would still have prejudices that are really unjustful and don't come close to the weight of the situation, just because I want to be myself

[quick fable]

ok now apply that to when you said "You never had to answer my questions if you didn't want to."

except rather than being a question about a piece of colour, it's a question about who you love and who you are

[gritty spindle]

I never had any prejudice except that thinking in boxes is not a good way of thinking, according to my beliefs

[quick fable]

If you still think that after all this conversation, I don't know what more there is to say.

[gritty spindle]

Im not saying I think that now, I said that was the prejudice that sparked my quest for answers

And ya'll gave them

[quick fable]

I think I'm just misunderstanding you then

Either way, it's late and I have to get busy. I appreciate that you are trying to learn, and I am sorry for how I acted earlier. Either way, I hope you can find the answers you are after.