#Episode One: Eve & Paradise Lost // Episode Discussion

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flint hatch
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Listen wherever you get your Podcasts: https://linktr.ee/museampersandpodcast

In this first episode of Muses: An Ampersand Podcast, Dan and Emma look at the life of Eve, who inspired Dan's song Eve & Paradise Lost.

Emma and Dan talk about exactly what the Bible (and the Qur'an) say about her; the different interpretations of her story; and the impact her story has had on popular culture, from Desparate Housewives to No Doubt's Tragic Kingdom; and Dan talks about the process of turning the story into the song. Dan also recites all of Paradise Lost from memory, and Emma does a deep dive into the lyrics of the song and that isn't awkward at all.

violet aurora
brave shard
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Buffy ❤️ Can’t wait to dig into those and see what they have to say about it. Good distraction for tomorrow too 😄

toxic sage
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This was sooo great to listen to on my evening walk and the track sounded SO FUNNY when I listened at 1.5x speed 😭

brave shard
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Ok that was verrrrrryyyy interesting. And hilarious.
Love the banter between them.
Totally agree with Emma thoughts on the song.
I’m really looking forward to hearing about people I’m less familiar with but I also learned few things i didn’t know there.
Also like that we touched on some similar points in our own #1166776999726034944 (and that title is even cooler now that we have the Muses podcast about songs 🤣) : the blame on Eve, the role of Adam. Even if it was more in depth in that episode.

Really looking forward to the next episode.

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Also, Bonnie Triangle_Ampersand Clyde mentioned again 👀 Do we have a song title for Part Four 👀

flint hatch
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Obviously it's a bit of a busy morning this morning elsewhere, so I probably won't have any talking points to stem for discussions today. Hopefully I will tomorrow! Feel free to discuss the episode at your own leisure in here though.

teal ginkgo
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About halfway through it 😁
The song is beautiful, but as a Christian, I knew it would probably be one of my least favorite episodes, so looking forward to the others!
There is a lot of misconceptions to Genesis even amongst denominations so I’m not super shocked that a lot of things were generalized in wrong ways, especially the assignment of gender, hierarchy, and blame.

The relaxed atmosphere of the podcast is nice and I think will be a fun listen over topics that are not religion based!

brave shard
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I think I’m actually going to read some things about Sojourner Truth cause i didn’t know she was either. Anybody picked up some “homeworks” too ? 🤣

zinc cedar
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Such a great first episode! I loved the banter between the two. I've always been super interested in religion and different interpretations of the stories in the bible. Took some classes on it in my high school. Makes me even more excited for future episdoes. Are they coming out weekly or monthly?

brave shard
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Weekly

tribal grail
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Yes, God created man out of the mud — but rather than it being slapdash, it’s the first sculpture. And Eve being created from Adam’s rib is not meant to be reductive of her and women — it symbolizes women being the helpmeet to their husbands, and the foundation for every subsequent new family that would cleave from its parents. It’s at worst an unrealistic standard for romantic relationships that the woman should feel like she and her partner are connected at the marrow level.

The tree was the knowledge of Good and Evil, and the promise the serpent made was that eating the fruit would make the two more like God.

God being omniscient knows this is all going to happen, and it’s all going to lead to Christ’s sacrifice, so the song touching on how Eve will always take the fall for us stings because she was put in the position to be the foil (like Peter, like Judas). She had a lot to navigate after they were ejected from the Garden. Her sons were the first murderer and victim.

We don’t honor Adam and Eve in scripture or in popular culture because we’re all “sons of Adam” referencing our sinful nature. But they proved free will in the face of the OT God who is angry, vengeful, speaks in code, and gives people tasks they’re often not cut out for or too afraid to do (Moses, Elijah). Yes, he warned them and they sinned. But the punishment never fit the crime. And after Eve, only the women in the Bible who submitted without question or subsumed themselves (Mary vs Martha, the nameless woman who anoints Christ’s feet) are elevated. Most women are still bringing their men down, from Lot’s wife to Bathsheba, to Jezebel, to Salome…

Re: Milton, he’s made Satan a sympathetic character, knowing that all of this was predestined. Emma and Dan briefly mentioned the show Lucifer, which is a brilliant arc that is all about reimagining the misunderstood angel who loves and seeks the approval of God the Father — and then takes his place as God.

twin bluff
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I've learnt a lot from this episode and these discussions here. My school actually used to do a Paradise Play every other year or something, using a movement thing called Eurythmy. (I was one third of the body of God lol) We rewrote lots of the old version that had been done for years and made both Adam and Eve tempted to eat the apple so it was on both shoulders. I did like that the climax was the casting out in our version. The gauze dropped and I think maybe seven people dressed as angels moved across stage like the sword of the archangel

tulip cliff
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Finally got a chance to listen! And wow what an incredible episode to start with. I think they echoed a lot of things that I’ve thought myself but also brought forward a lot of things I haven’t thought about. What a good listen.

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I’m glad they touched on the lines about women’s pain and the disbelief of that pain, those are the lines that make me tear up every time and also the topic in general is something that’s been floating around in my head a lot more in recent years.

teal ginkgo
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Sorry, work got weird, everyone wants Wegovy but no one wants to do the checkins to keep insurance paying for it 😑

To add to @tribal grail
Specifically on gender roles, men and women are equal, they were created equal but with different roles. This is not “Boys do work, girls have babies”, this is recognizing that we have different bodies and minds and utilizing those differences to work as a unit. This is not a uniquely human trait (see: tigresses doing most of the hunting, male birds of paradise doing all the mating rituals, etc.)
There is just as much “submission” from a wife to her husband as there is a husband to his wife. No one should be ignoring/invalidating the other person’s ideas, feelings or convictions just because they are the ones in charge. Many denominations do fall into the trap of creating rules and traditions based on their interpretation of scripture. They make a dress code for women and put men as the end-all-be-all. This makes them no better than the rule-following Pharisees that Jesus called out for their pride and cruelty. Rules like this are an attempt to curb the sinful, selfish nature of humanity but end up becoming sinful and selfish and allow sinful and selfish people to control and hurt others.
1 Corinthians 10:23: “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but all things do not edify.”
This is often used to justify things like cursing or illegal drug use, however this is to highlight that Jesus’ teaching is not salvation based on works, but faith. As a woman, I can wear whatever I want, the sweater and joggers I have on now are no more sinful or sinless than a full hijab, clothing is morally neutral. However my reason for wearing certain clothing is not. We are not islands, or exist in a vacuum where our decisions are only for us and everyone else’s responses are their own problem.
I’m running out of space I apologize. Part 2 soon and I’ll wrap back around to gender

teal ginkgo
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When I make decisions on things such as clothing, and makeup, I do this not with the male gaze, or the female gaze in mind, but with the fact that I live in a sinful world full of sinful and selfish people (and yeah that’s me too).
Everyone understands dressing in ways to respect the occasion. Not wearing white at a wedding, work dress codes, etc. people upholding these societal norms aren’t doing so because they think it’s morally wrong to wear anything else, but because they are thinking about the people that will see them and are willing to lay down their free-will to choose clothing for the sake of respecting the other people at those events. My goal in choosing clothing is to love and respect everyone, that includes keeping in mind the cultural expectations, the context I am in during the day, and, yes, the fact that we are sexual beings and I don’t want to be a direct cause for someone’s thoughts to go astray (not that that’s a problem for me)
This is a LONG rabbit hole to explain the reasoning behind my choices in everyday life and why it’s not about dos and don’ts but our reasoning behind our choices.

GENDER
Like I said, men and women are equal with different roles. If you are familiar with the concept of the trinity you will recognize the idea that God is 3 persons but still 1 God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. One part is not better or more important than the other, they just have different tasks. My heart and lungs are both a part of me, but perform different functions. I would not say my heart is better than my lungs because if I am shot in the lungs I would not die immediately, but I cannot live without both, the whole cannot function without both. Yes men are given the task of being spiritual leaders and ultimately the final say in decisions of the house, however as previously discussed, decisions are not made without discussion, including everyone involved’s thought, feelings, and convictions laid on the table.
Part 3/3 I PROMISE

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If no one was delegated as the decision maker, difficult decisions could not be made.

FINALLY
There are so many examples of men abusing this system. We would not have the world wide history of enslavement, subjugation, or oppression that we do If the world was not seeping sin from its pores.
It is not a broken system it is a broken people full of selfishness. I do not hold anyone who is not a professing Christian to the same standards that I hold myself and fellow Christians but I do pray for changed hearts and speak truth and hope that change will happen.

Again, I apologize for the length, I did not expect it at all

tribal grail
tribal grail
# teal ginkgo When I make decisions on things such as clothing, and makeup, I do this not with...

Clothing and the lack thereof is such an interesting premise about shame, the male/female gaze, modesty, responsibility … if the right eye causes you to sin, poke it out … why does one bikini mean liberation and another’s hijab mean subjugation when they both feel beautiful and perhaps conversely look at the other as “your dress is just as patriarchal as mine”. But then we start running into the “don’t wear this because men can’t control themselves” rape justifications, again largely from the modern Pharisee pious denominations. If we’re going to use the word submission, then we have to really believe in that man’s MISSION, of which we are under. Why submit to someone who has no control over his eyes and will, but is going to wrongly impose behavior codes on his wife and kids. I agree with you — it’s a team effort. When someone says, “I need to talk to my spouse” about it, people scoff. But isn’t that just common decency? Why partner with someone if you still want all your latitude and discretion. That’s not very relational. We’re not saying they should be your parent.

I also agree with you about equal with different roles and strengths. And a safe person whether male or female does not denigrate the other sex/gender as being driven by lust, emotions, etc. There’s a fundamental respect for the differences because they make us whole when we join as partners or in healthy working relationships.

tribal grail
tribal grail
tribal grail
# teal ginkgo Sorry, work got weird, everyone wants Wegovy but no one wants to do the checkins...

I especially want to nod in agreement about not living in a vacuum where one supposes their decisions (clothing in this case) don’t affect others. In legal terms, crimes increase in severity based on intent — and in some cases crimes simply of intent (conspiracy to commit a crime) carry heavier sentences than if the crime were committed. Clothing has become a bigger discussion relating to beauty standards, body-shaming and self-expression. But it’s what you said about not anticipating people’s reaction (especially among adolescents and histrionics), especially.

tribal grail
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Saw this today and wanted to add it to our discussion.

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tulip cliff
teal ginkgo
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I think about this discussion a lot 😂 glad it’s not dead.
Loving the album, am so shocked I managed tickets to the New York show and can’t wait! It’s my 30th bday on the 11th so one of my roommates counted it as a gift to me to spend the money and go with me (I would NOT be going alone)
Got to share my testimony at church and Bastille even got a shout out as I went to a concert for the Wild World tour instead of my college commencement