#Is atheism a strong belief?

2718 messages ยท Page 3 of 3 (latest)

timid mauve
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R4pe

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Its not consensual

kindred ether
# timid mauve R4pe

Here maybe this translation will help!

KJV
28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

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no translation is perfect

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wich is why i read so many

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and the greek

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Reaing the Orignal language helps a ton

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but you need to translate it or know the language

timid mauve
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"Humbled" means to be made to feel less proud, arrogant, or self-important, often by a humbling experience, unexpected generosity, or a humbling defeat. It signifies a moment that makes one feel grounded, grateful, or aware of their own limitations.

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I dont think that if she wanted this she would feel "humbled"

kindred ether
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I guess i should use the hebrew for the best understaning ๐Ÿ˜ญ ๐Ÿ‘

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Yay it worked!

timid mauve
kindred ether
timid mauve
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Like I'm sorry but all this considered this isnt about a consensual relation

timid mauve
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28 ื›ึดึผึฝื™ึพื™ึดืžึฐืฆึธึฃื ืึดึ—ื™ืฉื ืณื ึทืขึทืจืณ ืดื ึทืขึฒืจึธึคื”ืด ื‘ึฐืชื•ึผืœึธื”ึ™ ืึฒืฉึถืึฃืจ ืœึนืึพืึนืจึธึ”ืฉึธื‚ื” ื•ึผืชึฐืคึธืฉึธื‚ึ–ื”ึผ ื•ึฐืฉึธืื›ึทึฃื‘ ืขึดืžึธึผึ‘ื”ึผ ื•ึฐื ึดืžึฐืฆึธึฝืื•ึผืƒ

29 ื•ึฐึ ื ึธืชึทืŸ ื”ึธืึดึจื™ืฉื ื”ึทืฉึนึผืื›ึตึฅื‘ ืขึดืžึธึผึ›ื”ึผ ืœึทืึฒื‘ึดึฅื™ ืณื”ึทื ึทึผืขึทืจืณ ืดื”ึทึฝื ึทึผืขึฒืจึธึ–ื”ืด ื—ึฒืžึดืฉึดึผืึฃื™ื ื›ึธึผึ‘ืกึถืฃ ื•ึฐืœึฝื•ึนึพืชึดื”ึฐื™ึถึฃื” ืœึฐืึดืฉึธึผืึ—ื” ืชึทึผึšื—ึทืช ืึฒืฉึถืึฃืจ ืขึดื ึธึผึ”ื”ึผ ืœึนืึพื™ื•ึผื›ึทึฅืœ ืฉึทืืœึฐึผื—ึธึ–ื”ึผ ื›ึธึผืœึพื™ึธืžึธึฝื™ื•ืƒ ืก

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The word used here is "humiliated"

kindred ether
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that would make snece

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because she was caut

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found out

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to be sleeping with somboy she shouldnt

timid mauve
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If the "punishment" is towards him and not her, it implies its the mans wrongdoing

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Not the womans

kindred ether
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Like, if i sleeped with sombody i should not be, and my famly found out i would he humiliated

kindred ether
timid mauve
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?

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What is it u dont understand

kindred ether
kindred ether
kindred ether
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he would have to ask the father becuase back then, i would have to ask the father, befre i could merry the daughter?

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but the shekels could be for a weding or somthing, i would need to learn the history before desiding somthing like that though :3

timid mauve
kindred ether
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it was tratishion back then! :3

kindred ether
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i looked into a bit more and it seems that the pay 50 shekels was a thing pretty much all men would do at the time

fathom hamlet
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You cant deny objective reality because of your subjective lens by which you view the world, otherwise you're being irrational

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Alot of people can be both christian and scientifically minded, because they adapt their worldview

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There would be no innovation if people rigidly held their worldview regarding their religion

timid mauve
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Actually where are the dinosaurs in the bible

pearl mesa
livid pivot
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huh

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what it says is honor your father and your mother but that doesn't mean you have to do everything they say

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it's about being respectful

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if you can move out do that

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it's not

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also we're not forced to do anything

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but we strive to be good

north crest
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What up this homies disin my girl

little sluice
scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
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the only reason you would choose not to believe in it is because of your own worldview

scarlet pelican
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Nah

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You look at your proof i look at mine

kindred ether
kindred ether
rotund spindle
fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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Evolution is like unprovable with how people have set it up because now anything i say, like the fact fossils can and have been formed in 24 hours which are moleculary the exact same as the supposed fossils which formed over "millions of years", then you guys can just say "well it doesnt match up with the timeline so its not real evidence"

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So idk if its even worth debating this for the trillionth time

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It goes against fundemental parts of christianity so that tells me its at least in part untrue

rotund spindle
fathom hamlet
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why won't you adjust your christian worldview to fit science into it?

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there are people who do exactly that

rotund spindle
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it would be hard to fake an old fossil

scarlet pelican
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Because i cant believe that death happened before sin. The consequence of sin is death. Sin is significant to my worldview

rotund spindle
fathom hamlet
kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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I do think christians can believe in evolution if they dont take it that far as a conclusion

rotund spindle
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But that can be deducted

scarlet pelican
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There's a lot of other reasons it's not applicable either

fathom hamlet
little sluice
scarlet pelican
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Because adaptation comes from just having kids and moving lol

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Its very realistic

little sluice
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it is quite literally the definition of evolution

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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Did you read what i said

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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I said the billion year part is what is not applicable

fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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I also dont think God would lie and say He made life in days so idk

scarlet pelican
rotund spindle
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but im not an expert

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either way we know the half life of carbon so we can still date stuff

scarlet pelican
kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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Havent looked a lot into it

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I heard also carbon dating is very innaccurate because the amount of carbon changes in the world idk

rotund spindle
fathom hamlet
kindred ether
rotund spindle
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but if we can deduct the % of carbon it will become accurate

little sluice
rotund spindle
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using many factors

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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The biggest thing that made me not believe in evolution anymore is

  • fossils CAN and HAVE been formed in 24 hours and are the exact same as we suspect them to be molecularly
  • environments (canyons etc) have been formed before in 48 hours so it doesnt actually need millions of years to happen
  • how would God decide that one "near human" is not worthy to be made in His image? When does God decide that one being is enough human and the other isnt? It does not seem loving whatsoever and that goes against Gods character
scarlet pelican
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I do not want to say 6k

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I want to do the ages in the bible and then add 2k since the bible has been written

rotund spindle
rotund spindle
fathom hamlet
kindred ether
rotund spindle
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because of its half life

scarlet pelican
rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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(Worldwide flood)

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Lol

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Ik

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I will get the article for you in a bit

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It was in the smithsonian or whatever its called

rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Lol

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Pressure

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I can find that too

fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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Just give me a second i gotta brush my teeth

little sluice
scarlet pelican
little sluice
scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
rotund spindle
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^

scarlet pelican
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Me claiming it rn

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:P

rotund spindle
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same for landscapes

scarlet pelican
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Im claiming it RN!

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๐Ÿ˜ฒ

kindred ether
rotund spindle
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mountains form over a span of hundred of thousands of years

fathom hamlet
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yeah so you have the burden of proving something that is extraordinary

scarlet pelican
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Either landscapes were made that way or God made it that way to start with

rotund spindle
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and most landscapes too

scarlet pelican
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๐Ÿ™

fathom hamlet
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you're just dogmatic

rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Ok!

scarlet pelican
kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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I believe that pangea was real and it split when they were kicked out of the garden

rotund spindle
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why would he separate them

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pretty stupid

scarlet pelican
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Because of sin

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Makes sense to me

rotund spindle
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doesn't really

scarlet pelican
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It does tho

rotund spindle
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nah

scarlet pelican
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The world was probably ideally supposed to be all connected but He split it because we choose sin

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Also to be clear THAT isnt like

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I havent actually thought about it much

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Ill ask cs when he wakes up if thats even biblical

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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That part might be dumb

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Idk

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I still think it makes sense till im told otherwise by God

rotund spindle
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what would happen if we find alien life

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would god have created them too ?

scarlet pelican
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Demons

kindred ether
little sluice
# kindred ether why would that be?

so much just because humans sinned? also i personally would prefer different continents it would be really boring to explore the world as a single giant island and nothing besides it

rotund spindle
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also im wondering did god create bacteria and viruses

kindred ether
rotund spindle
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just flying object you cant identify

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literally

kindred ether
rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Thats a GREAT point

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God did create the world to be fun and interesting to explore

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Maybe He did that since He knew we would be here a long time

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Wait

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I might have changed my view on pangea

rotund spindle
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did god create all of the other planets

scarlet pelican
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๐Ÿค”

scarlet pelican
kindred ether
rotund spindle
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then why do black holes exist

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they destroy everything

little sluice
rotund spindle
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^

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Im wondering

scarlet pelican
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Oh btw

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Before i was a christian, i studied astronomy like extensively. I was gonna be an astrophysicist

rotund spindle
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if we find intelligent alien life way beyond our technology that says god and religion is a stupid concept how would you christians react

scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
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my issue with the belief in God is this: why would there be a conscious being that forms conscious decisions that are centered around humans, in a world where we don't observe humans being any different than other animals and we don't observe any concious creation?

scarlet pelican
rotund spindle
rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Of course a demon why try to convince us to doubt God.

scarlet pelican
rotund spindle
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If he proves it

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What happens

scarlet pelican
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Wdym

rotund spindle
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if he proves god doesn't exist

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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How would you prove that an infinite God doesnt exist

scarlet pelican
rotund spindle
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ig

scarlet pelican
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Im graduating next week with my degree in criminal justice

scarlet pelican
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For instance

rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Theres new tech every day!

rotund spindle
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But if they have better technology than us

fathom hamlet
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god is a positive claim so it needs to be proved in the first place

scarlet pelican
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God is present everywhere

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God is outside of time and matter

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This intelligent beautiful creation must have a creator

rotund spindle
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Man god is not a nice dude

scarlet pelican
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Why

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๐Ÿค”

rotund spindle
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lets people ๐Ÿ‡

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for example

scarlet pelican
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Oh this convo again

rotund spindle
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doesn't do nothing

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allows war

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millions of death

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but of course its free will

scarlet pelican
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Yes i was r4ped but like God stopping that would influence free will ultimately

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YES

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Do you want God to stop you from doing things you do

rotund spindle
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hed rather let everyone suffer

scarlet pelican
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He doesnt like suffering

rotund spindle
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than punish the guy making the suffering

scarlet pelican
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He will punish them

rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Do you not know what hell is

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Do you know what hell is

rotund spindle
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how can you be so sure of what it is

fathom hamlet
# scarlet pelican God is outside of time and matter

if god is so much beyond everything, why is he described in such an anthropocentric way

I would rather believe in a Lovecraftian eldritch god then the christian God, because those deities don't revolve around human lives

rotund spindle
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besides the bible

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have you seen it

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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No? Havent seen heaven either

scarlet pelican
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Then do that

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Free will

rotund spindle
scarlet pelican
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Not my job to convert you fr

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Because i trust God

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๐Ÿ‘

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And i trust that justice will be served

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Perfect justice

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By a perfect God

rotund spindle
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besides the bible what proof do you have

kindred ether
rotund spindle
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honestly

fathom hamlet
kindred ether
scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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I think its a common belief because its true

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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If this point was really that big of an issue everyone would just kill themselves

fathom hamlet
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doesn't matter, if the book is already written you cannot claim it is actively being written

kindred ether
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but things being predetermend dose not mean there is no free wlll

scarlet pelican
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Its actively being read :)

fathom hamlet
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so you just follow the script, where is the free will in that

rotund spindle
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make them scared

scarlet pelican
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Thanks for assuming why im christian tho

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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Your destiny is not predetermined, God just knows what it is

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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God doesnt decide who goes to heaven or hell

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He just knows who does

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I think is how i see it

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Cs will have a different view but he sleep

fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
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if your fate already exists it means you cannot change it

scarlet pelican
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Yeah i cant change where im going unless Jesus

rotund spindle
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christianity is a cult that worked very well i must say

scarlet pelican
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A cult doesnt match the definition

fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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I just learned extensively about this in my sociology of madness course ๐Ÿค“

scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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Its just God knows already like what im gonna say rn

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Like for example

fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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I just applied to an apartment the other week and i find out today if i got in but God already knows if i did or not

little sluice
scarlet pelican
scarlet pelican
fathom hamlet
scarlet pelican
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Otherwise you can make your own definition and thats kinda like dictionary larping fr

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Which is fine too i guess

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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This is why, for example, islam is not a cult

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And buddhism is not a cult

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Most mainstream religions arent

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Though things like jehovahs witnesses are

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Scientology is

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Like for example my church is very supportive of me reading the quran the book of mormon whatever else

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I actually have a ton of other peoples holy texts

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๐Ÿ‘

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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Where wot the

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Judaism is different now tbh than it was

little sluice
scarlet pelican
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Ive learned recently

scarlet pelican
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A lot about christians and jews in the quran

little sluice
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i meant the believes of Israelites in the old testaments

late oriole
scarlet pelican
late oriole
scarlet pelican
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Wait

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EO do the incense thing

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????

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Im learning new things daily...

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Alexander maybe you can notice something i slipped up on too. Idk

rotund spindle
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did its book say its true ?

kindred ether
late oriole
scarlet pelican
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A big thing for me is the nature of God. I think God is loving and all powerful and all that but a lot of religions view Him differently

late oriole
rotund spindle
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but doesn't answer the question

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so go ahead tell me

scarlet pelican
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FOR REFERENCE alexander doesnt really like bible as the only authority so thats his view differing from mine, youll get different opinions from us both

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Like i view the bible as my only infalliable authority (i do have other authorities but they are falliable)

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Maybe he views it different i just highlight it so yall know

rotund spindle
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genuinely tho what proves christianity is true besides the text

kindred ether
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how do explain

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uhhhh

rotund spindle
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such as

kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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Take ur time kribble :P

kindred ether
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and

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we have the focels of where they lived

little sluice
kindred ether
rotund spindle
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anyways imma go

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bye chat

scarlet pelican
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See you

kindred ether
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Good bye!!!!!

kindred ether
little sluice
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but i see why

kindred ether
late oriole
kindred ether
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and we found dead bodys in them

late oriole
# rotund spindle so go ahead tell me

Christianity is true because it uniquely explains the things every worldview has to explain such as existence, consciousness, morality, meaning, rationality, and the human condition
and it does so without collapsing into contradiction

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I'll start with that

scarlet pelican
kindred ether
scarlet pelican
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But i still strongly value your views in terms of why christianity is true

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๐Ÿ™

late oriole
scarlet pelican
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Oh i see ok have fun!

little sluice
# kindred ether Thats one of my evedneces

for me personally learning about Canaanite mythology/theology is a actually what made me lose believes even more because you can clearly see where yahweh emerged from where the judaism started and later became christianity

kindred ether
late oriole
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The entire Old Testament is a polemic against Canaanite religion

kindred ether
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good to know its now only meee :)

late oriole
scarlet pelican
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Judaism became Christianity after Jesus fulfilled the old conevant right or am i dumv

late oriole
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In canaanite myth the see is a chaos god

late oriole
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its just water

little sluice
late oriole
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Judaism is unfulfilled Christianity

scarlet pelican
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Yes and Jesus fulfilled it!

late oriole
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Christianity is the fullness of the truth revealed

scarlet pelican
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Hallelujah

late oriole
little sluice
fathom hamlet
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also im wondering
if someone does not choose bliblical literalism as their intepretation, what would make one reading of the bible more valid than another

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if there is no really valid reading, there's no fundamentalism

scarlet pelican
late oriole
late oriole
fathom hamlet
late oriole
late oriole
# fathom hamlet and why do you choose the church

Because every worldview relies on some authority. The question is whether the authority is stable, continuous, and selfโ€‘correcting. The Church is the only candidate in Christianity that actually fits that description

scarlet pelican
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This is where we disagree ofc...

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๐Ÿ‘

late oriole
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Christianity existed before the Bible for starters. Its the people inspired by God that held the tradition and that canonized the texts

scarlet pelican
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But two perspectives perhaps provide different values idk

little sluice
fathom hamlet
late oriole
# little sluice in earlier levantine mythology yahweh was also born from el

What we do see is early Israelites using the same cultural vocabulary as their neighbors which is normal for every ancient culture

and even to steelman what you are saying and taking that "kind of yahweh" as the understanding of the One True God of Christianity: Yahweh doesnโ€™t fit the Canaanite pantheon anyway since he, unlike the others in that pantheon, has no parents, no consort, no rivals, no natureโ€‘cycle, no death, no sexuality or whatever weird thing

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Again you canโ€™t get Yahweh by trimming down the pantheon, youโ€™d have to invert the entire Canaanite metaphysics and thus their believes to fit it anyway

late oriole
late oriole
fathom hamlet
late oriole
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I am one lol

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they should call it... Christianity

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or something

fathom hamlet
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yeah but what would stop you from adopting for example darwinian evolution into your worldview

late oriole
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though now that I remember

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that one was more an internal critique of it

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It didn't have anything to do with chrisitianity

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so in relation to Christianity I could say:

pearl mesa
late oriole
# late oriole so in relation to Christianity I could say:

Christianity has a metaphysics where being is good and creation is ordered toward communion with God. Man fell and thus death and sin entered into creation. Evil is a privation of the good, and death is an intruder to the world.

Darwinian metaphysics treats the consequences of the fall of man like death and decay as what creation always was.

This would make God the author of death and decay, which is just no true and and not even possible within Christian metaphysics. It is a privation of the life that creation was ordered toward: If death is built into creation from the beginning, then evil is not a distortion but a principle

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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isn't God omnipotent

late oriole
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Darwinism eliminates teleology (purpose) treating everything as ultimately accidental (ofc this analyzed metaphysically would be incoherent because if the principle of being is accidental, then all order, intelligibility, and rationality become accidental too.
And if intelligibility is accidental, then knowledge itself becomes impossible) so already even here its kinda evident that darwinism taken as a worldview is not even coherent within itself let alone compared

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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that would mean God created death

late oriole
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How do you go from

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God is omnipotent
to
Thus he created death

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I'll re-state that evil is not a substance

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Evil is a lack of the good that should be there

fathom hamlet
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well first of all he would be able to just not allow for death to happen

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but also if death exists that means it had to be created at one point in your worldview, right?

late oriole
# fathom hamlet well first of all he would be able to just not allow for death to happen

God can stop death but only by removing the conditions that make love possible. Because the fall wasn't just something preventible but a moral choice: man choose not to follow God and thus evil.
At the same time we wouldn't be free if, given the choice, we would've just followed God like robots. In fact it wouldn't have been even a choice if thats what you mean

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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you can claim good is just the abscence of evil

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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and why isn't it

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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why don't you believe this to be the case

little sluice
# late oriole Already starting at Genesis 1: for example

the name of god hasn't been revealed to israelites until much later when they escaping (or right before escaping?) egypt so if we assume that first chapter of genesis is linked with canaanite mythology then it could very well fit to el himself which was the leader god there

little sluice
pearl mesa
late oriole
# fathom hamlet why don't you believe this to be the case

if evil is the fundamental reality, then there is no standard by which to call it evil.

A privation means:

the absence of a perfection that ought to be present in a thing

A privation only makes sense relative to a prior fullness you canโ€™t define a "lack" unless you know what ought to be there. If evil is the fullness, then evil is no longer evil it is simply โ€œwhat isโ€, thus destroying the very category you were trying to define as hypotetical (evil being the ultimate reality and goodness being just the absence of that).

Creation also becomes impossible if evil is positive. Evil is privation thus being itself collapses into nonโ€‘being

late oriole
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It's a title

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โ€œGodโ€ or โ€œthe Deityโ€ or โ€œthe One who is Godโ€

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From what I can tell El is a specific deity in the Ugaritic pantheon

fathom hamlet
little sluice
late oriole
# fathom hamlet isn't the first statement also true for the claim of evil just being a lack of g...

The whole point is that there is no symmetry. Privation is a directional concept, it only works one way.

If (we grant that) evil is the fullness it must function as a positive actuality. To call something โ€œevilโ€ you must be saying it is not as it ought to be (we imply deviation, corruption, failure, disorder by how its used). If evil is the fullness, then nothing is โ€œnot as it ought to be", nothing is โ€œwrongโ€ because there is no standard above

fathom hamlet
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yeah how does it differ if good is the positive reality

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is there a standard for good

late oriole
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it does not require a higher standard above it

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It is the standard

late oriole
fathom hamlet
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so you define existence in a way that can only allow for good

late oriole
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in order to be meaningful

fathom hamlet
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so you also think evil doesn't exist ontologically?

regal forum
#

https://www.youtube.com/@ImpactVideoMinistries this has some very helpfull videos

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late oriole
unborn loom
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Ehh

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It's unfalsifiable

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It's not bad nor good

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Same for Christianity, Islam and every other world view

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I'm a classical Theist closely leaning to agnosticism. At most I believe that a God which does not belong to any religion created the foundations of astrophysics, and let everything play out from sheer randomness. And that now this god doesn't intervine at all

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I guess you can call it deism

oak breach
late oriole
late oriole
oak breach
late oriole
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but it was more specifically in relation to the matter here

oak breach
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seemed like an analytical observation then something akin to a normative claim Id reckon

unborn loom
# late oriole I'm curious as to what you mean by "unfalsifiable"

Unfalsifiable meaning you cannot disprove it.

Atheism and most religions are unfalsifiable, they cannot be proven nor disproven. With atheism we have studied how some things came to be, but we still don't understand them fully, like we don't even know if the life on earth came from a meteorite that hit the planet or if it formed on earth.

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And most religions are compatible with science

late oriole
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sure

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but unfalsifiable โ‰  unknowable

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since it seems thats your conclusion

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thus leaning on agnosticism

unborn loom
unborn loom
unborn loom
late oriole
unborn loom
oak breach
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Or are we epistemologically doomed? PhilosophyQuestion /j

unborn loom
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Maybe

late oriole
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its like

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wait a minute

unborn loom
late oriole
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its like uniting the ontological level (what the laws are) and the modal level (what the laws allow)

unborn loom
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The laws created by the god are intentional but the results of those laws are random

oak breach
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I think deism is a good foundation as a baseline I suppose, my own personal axe to grind is just the claim that most modern religions aren't falsifiable. I think most make enough positive claims to make at the very least internal consistency checks if not checking the claims against the observable.

late oriole
oak breach
#

It depends on semantics as to what is being described exactly although, nothing is really "truly" proved. There are however degrees of confidence.

Unless you are into solipsism or something, lmao PhilosophyQuestion

late oriole
#

If the laws are intentional, then the source of the laws must be rational. Thus a rational source has reasons. Reasons imply purpose. Purpose implies nonโ€‘indifference.
That, if accepted, would kinda go against deism

oak breach
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That would be close to my argument too, we tend to rationalize things in terms of paradigms and not thoughts in a vacuum. I think deism just leaves a lot to be desired, it's a valid proposition in itself ofc. But doesn't act as a very good explainer of how things appear to have turned out at least.

late oriole
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it was a system that still had a god as foundation but that basically had left everything else behind

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thus deist at the time quickly departed from that unto whatever rational philosophy they were building

oak breach
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At best it just tries to hastily solve problems of modality/ontology/abiogenesis/etc but leaves a lot to be desired imo

late oriole
#

but already considering them problems is kinda begging the question about what beliefs you are already have

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They really aren't ultimately

oak breach
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I think you misunderstand, I don't mean that such topics are problematic or anything

late oriole
oak breach
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I just mean that it attempts to address such issues philosophically as any worldview would have to, imo it just tries to have its cake and eat it too by following the issue down to abiogenesis and then jumping ship afterwards

late oriole
oak breach
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Would be interesting what "strong belief" means in this scenario although

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As I would have assumed the topic was digging at the falsifiability of atheism as well to be frank

late oriole
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so its kinda dodgy to say "eventually we'll find out" if you already presupposed that say, your sense are able to know the truth

oak breach
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I'd say atheism isn't a strong belief based on how I assume you are trying to define the issue I suppose, it really doesn't make any positive claims within the typical usage of the term

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I guess it kind of does, but the positive claim is more about a rejection of sufficiency for the opposition then a claim to know nothing exists for sure

livid pivot
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evolution is a bigger claim than plain adaptation

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one that isn't scientifically observable and reproducible

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the evidence most people go to to defend evolution is like similarities in bone structures/skeletons/fossils

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but similarities do not necessitate succession or evolution

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also fossils dont let you observe and reproduce the process

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they just let you speculate about what happened

rancid egret
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I assume the difference you mean is that in adaptation there wouldnt be a LUCA (last universal common ancestor, a theoretical extinct microbe that is the ancestor of all other life forms)

hot arch
livid pivot
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evolution is adaptation + speciation

livid pivot
rancid egret
livid pivot
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no

little sluice
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although this process itself is meaningless since species is a made up term created to make classification of organisms easier

pearl mesa
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Truth nuke

rancid egret
little sluice
# pearl mesa Truth nuke

aren't you creationists reject evolution exactly because the god created animals by species meaning that neither new species could come to existence nor that all organisms came from one

pearl mesa
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Animals are separated by kinds in the bible

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So one kind would be bear but multiple species can come out of the bear like grizzly or polar

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So new species could come to exist but not new kinds of creatures

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There were only 2 bears on the ark, not 2 of every species of bear. That would be silly

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So eventually the different species of bears split off through mutation that happened because of inbreeding

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Because bear population was small

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The ark is very massive, but it isn't big enough to fit every species so it would be a problem for Christianity if we believed that God created every species in the beginning, rather than every kind of creature

little sluice
little sluice
pearl mesa
# little sluice define kind

The classifcation of animal according to how God made them. There are multiple species of frog but only one frog kind

livid pivot
little sluice
little sluice
pearl mesa
livid pivot
#

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

Species

A species (pl.โ€‰species) is the basic unit of classification and a taxonomic rank of an organism, as well as a unit of biodiversity. It can be defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction. Other ways of defining spe...

fathom hamlet
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Thats seems absurd

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If we can figure out space travel, why would evolution be so hard to crack?

livid pivot
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most evolutionists posit that this process takes millions of years

fathom hamlet
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Yeah we can observe it on a smaller scale and use induction

livid pivot
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but as i said earlier, that's adaptation

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what we're observing

fathom hamlet
livid pivot
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besides, similarities do not prove succession

livid pivot
fathom hamlet
livid pivot
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it is not le bacteria turning into le ape

fathom hamlet
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Rivers can carve out mountains but an ape can't turn into a human?

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๐Ÿคทโ€โ™‚๏ธ

livid pivot
livid pivot
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observable

fathom hamlet
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We can observe species living in different eras

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And the species buried deeper down in the ground are less complex

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Why can't we use that as observations?

livid pivot
fathom hamlet
livid pivot
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whats a concrete example of that

fathom hamlet
livid pivot
#

๐Ÿคฆ๐Ÿปโ€โ™‚๏ธ

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that's the thing in queation

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we haven't observed "the first species to get on land"

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so you can't use that as evidence

fathom hamlet
livid pivot
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the fossils don't show a process tho

fathom hamlet
livid pivot
#

no

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they show an organism in a certain point in time

fathom hamlet
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Do you agree thst some things are buried deeper down?

livid pivot
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it is a snapshot

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sure

fathom hamlet
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Why are some fossils found only higher up?

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Dud they appear out of thin air

livid pivot
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perhaps they came later!

fathom hamlet
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How? Give me a naturakidtic explanation

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Naturalistic

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Man I cant write goofy_fella

livid pivot
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thing dies, sediment accumulates, next thing dies

fathom hamlet
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Why are human fossils only found in the upper layers

livid pivot
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uhh

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dunno

fathom hamlet
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Well you have no working theory

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Scientists do

livid pivot
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i like this type of argument

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if only i knew how to apply TAG

livid pivot
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im talking about succession

fathom hamlet
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The ones before show features that arent fully developed

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We can clearly see a progression

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Unless you believe that a semi-fish lizard appeared out of thin air

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The rational reasoning is that species change because of evolution

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What better natural explanation is there

pearl mesa
# fathom hamlet Do you believe everything else is scientifically observable, but when it comes t...

I believe mainstream science often gets a lot wrong, in the past scientists have said that cigarettes are okay and that black people are less evolved than white people. Science produces a data set, and scientists can arrange that dataset to affirm their biases.

I would look into the peer reviewed articles published by James Lindsay and Peter Boghossian. They worked together to get several papers published in established scientific journals, but the research was entirely made up to expose the low standards of peer review and how easy it was to make up ridiculous claims and get them accepted in the scientific world.

pearl mesa
pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
#

that's the thing in question, you're the only claiming it

pearl mesa
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I'm not the only one, of course that would be a rather silly claim as you just saw Froge agree with me.

fathom hamlet
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the fossil records are publically open

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do you think all the people who do science as a hobby are paid aswell

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evolution isn't even rocket science, you can study it by yourself

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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why

pearl mesa
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A lot of the science around it isn't all that cut-and-dry as they teach you in middle school

fathom hamlet
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do you wish to see a bird evolve in real time for you to believe

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there are series of observations and deductions made to propose theories, that's how humans reason and understand the world

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the same way people back in the day deduced that those fossils that seem to be in progressive order mean that the species evolved

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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yeah believe that the theory is true

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fundamentally everything we think is a belief

pearl mesa
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Yeah you have your faith and I have mine

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I think my faith has more evidence pointing to it

fathom hamlet
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your faith is entirely subjective and not based in objective reality

pearl mesa
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How so

fathom hamlet
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also you cannot mix the word faith and belief

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that's sophistry

pearl mesa
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Yeah I would say faith is stronger

fathom hamlet
pearl mesa
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I can

fathom hamlet
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that would make only you

pearl mesa
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Is abraham lincoln subjective and not based in objective reality

fathom hamlet
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abraham lincoln was a real person who was alive

pearl mesa
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Yeah because the historical evidence points to the existance of abraham lincoln

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So, the same way the historical evidence also points to Jesus

fathom hamlet
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jesus being a son of god is an extraordinary claim

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abraham lincoln existing is not

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in this case a rational thinker would rather believe in the claims around abraham lincoln

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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I can claim that anyone is a son of god

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there can be also people backing it up

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therefore, the claim is extraordinary and needs extraordinary evidence

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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it's a positive claim so we would rather look for evidence who is

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and there isn't

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there isn't any evidence, so the claim is naturally dismissed

pearl mesa
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There isn't any evidence for Jesus being the son of God?

fathom hamlet
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well he could be a son of satan

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he could be just any son

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how do you prove that jesus is the son of an omnipotent god?

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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you need to prove that it's a good source

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why not Quran? shouldn't it be a historical source too

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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there are lots of contradictions in the bible aswell

pearl mesa
pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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or maybe watch the whole debate to hear the talking points

pearl mesa
#

Yeah I'm familiar with Alex o connor

regal forum
pearl mesa
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"So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene."

You're saying is a contradiction because it doesn't say that in the old testament. Do you believe that it is impossible for there to be some other explanation rather than "said through the prophets" meaning "written in the old testament?"

fathom hamlet
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so there are many interpretations of the bible?

pearl mesa
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For something to be a contradiction, it would need to be impossible to rectify

regal forum
#

enjoing a dr pepper

fathom hamlet
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if only one interpretation was true I'd expect there to be a consensus

pearl mesa
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There are dishonest people who purposefully misinterpret for the sake of pushing a preexisting bias

fathom hamlet
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what about all the other christian denominations?

pearl mesa
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What about them

regal forum
fathom hamlet
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so do they lie or is there not a single correct interpretation

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I don't think people could believe in so strongly in a lie if they knew it was a made up lie

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
#

putting more emphasis on something is pretty much the definition of a different interpretation
If I were to read the bible and would put more focus on the sentence A than B, that's a different interpretation than someone else

high pilot
#

i should try dr pepper in soup actually

regal forum
#

it has a blend of 23 authentic flavors so yeah

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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so is my example incorrect?

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I'd say that's a pretty solid example of an interpretation

pearl mesa
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I have brothers who are in a different denomination but I agree with them on most things and I am confident that they are saved

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It's not that they have a different interpretation of the bible, they just have a different preferance in how they worship God

fathom hamlet
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okay im gonna ask this way then?

If I were to read the bible and would put more focus on the sentence A than B, that's a different interpretation than someone else
is this example correct about this being different in interpretation? If yes, than how can two differenciating emphasis on the reading of the bible not be a difference in interpretation?

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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that would mean the sentence in question isn't prescriptive only descriptive

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if it was prescriptive there is no room for preference

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so what about the times in bible when the language is prescriptive?

pearl mesa
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The people who focus on shoes don't reject that I went to the mall and fully believe and hold to that.

The people who focus on the mall don't reject that I bought shoes.

fathom hamlet
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yeah im asking about a different sentence entirely

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what about the commands for believers to obey? do denominations not disagree about them

pearl mesa
#

Christians who are saved should do the things that Christians who are saved do. That exists across denominations

fathom hamlet
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it's prescriptive so you cannot think literally anything of it

pearl mesa
fathom hamlet
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Id say that as long as there are denominations disagreeing about some commands, the bible does not have a one true interpretation

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unless those people are fully mistaken

pearl mesa