Rearranged SH282, an idea that became a mod, that we pester satiric for. *occasionally*

[ornate spindle]

Just like the history behind a x-8-4 is to have a larger firebox heat up water hotter

Mainly those two changes.

[nova mason]

Even if the firebox isn't actually modelled bigger, just tweaked whatever codez handles it

[ornate spindle]

Because wheel arrangements like the 2-10-0 are already well balanced.

[ornate spindle]

EXACTLY!

You get it!

[tender root]

I guess my idea for the mod was to show how the wheel arrangement affects the locomotive, with no boiler and firebox changes. I'm not a fan of making changes to the sim that would make the model even more inaccurate

[shadow raft]

Accuracy?

https://tenor.com/view/yeet-lion-king-simba-rafiki-throw-gif-16194362

[tender root]

lol

[ornate spindle]

Since when was the model-

…we have a lubrication turret for a blower.

[tender root]

I mean technically you could gut a hydrostatic lubricator and use it as a manifold to distribute steam from the turret... I mean IDK why you would but it's possible. For me, there's a difference between things that are strange but technically possible, and things that are just flat out wrong.

Like, having the front end throttle linkage inside the boiler is pretty strange but technically possible. Not modelling either an injector or a feedwater heater is straight up wrong. And changing the firebox sim without changing the model falls in the second category for me. Obviously it's OK for a mod to be unrealistic, but I think it belongs in a different mod

[ornate spindle]

True.

But do you have time to finally make that elusive firebox expansion?

Or make the pistons larger?

[tender root]

Don't want to make the pistons larger in Rearranged S282 because I like the tractive effort scaling like it is. If pistons scaled with wheel size, then there would be no tractive effort changes between the different arrangements.

[ornate spindle]

Oh I meant specifically for 4-8-X

[tender root]

why should the 4-8-x have larger pistons than every other arrangement? What's the sense in making just the 4-8-x's more powerful?

[ornate spindle]

That is why the 4-8-X were made?

They have more support for larger pistons

[shadow raft]

They were made to have more stability at high speeds?

[tender root]

What wiz said

[ornate spindle]

Huh.

[tender root]

Hyce has a good video on it, lemme see if I can find it

[shadow raft]

You don't need more leading wheels because the pistons are supported by the locomotive frame.

[ornate spindle]

What about the firebox?

I thought it was purely for balence,

[shadow raft]

The firebox must go deep and uses the whole space between the rails, so you can't have axles going through it.

So you either had more space between drivers to fit the firebox between them like in the picture above of the 4-4-0

Or you start adding trailing wheels.

[tender root]

Generally you add a first trailing axle for stability going backwards, and a second because there would be too much weight on the first trailing axle otherwise

I think axle weight is less of an issue on the leading axles, although I'm not sure

[shadow raft]

Yeah, firebox is heavy.

About the stability, a benefit of tenders is that they can be used for it.

The german class 52 could go in both directions at the same speed thanks to a system that used the tender for stability.

(and it was a 2-10-0)

[tender root]

Hyce has said that on the DRGW K-37's (a Mikado), the axle with the highest load is the trailing axle; and if the axle load limit on the DRGW was less, they could have ended up as 2-8-4's

[solid elbow]

More specifically, "the trailing truck is Way overloaded"

[quiet wave]

Hey @tender root. I see you're asking people what system they're using: #mods-support-and-bugs message
There's an easy way to get that info from the log, and it's one less potentially confusing question to ask, so it would probably benefit you to know this trick.
SteamDeck/Linux/Proton, will report in the log that the game is installed on drive Z:/, while under actual windows a drive Z:/ is only created when you have a drive for every other letter already. And it's unlikely that someone has a machine with 36 drives

[quiet wave]

Here i found a great example: #mods-support-and-bugs message
You can see it says stuff is in Z drive

also with linux, people usually have a harder time finding the log file, and that's why they just send screenshots from the ingame log viewer.
That's because the path is different and more complicated:
<Path/to/your/SteamLibrary>/steamapps/compatdata/588030/pfx/drive_c/users/steamuser/AppData/LocalLow/Altfuture/Derail Valley/Player.log

[chrome vortex]

A lot of german stuff doesn't have trailing wheels under the firebox

[gusty kestrel]

Ah, yes, bigger cylinders required

[rocky swallow]

Tbh 0-6-0s are not capable of high speeds irl anyway

in theory they probably can, but with hunting and limited stability they'd just send themselves off the track

[rocky swallow]

except when they did

[shadow raft]

Evil french witchcraft I presume?

[solid elbow]

Didn’t an american weird duplex have axles go through the firebox?

[rocky swallow]

no, sometimes fireboxes were built far up enough to have the axle below them

only worked with narrow fireboxes though

[shadow raft]

Ah, not the axle through the firebox.

[rocky swallow]

yzah no

the axle goes through the ashpan but not through the firebox

[tender root]

Yes, but that means it would derail easier, not that it would make less power at high speeds

[rocky swallow]

indeed

[tender root]

I guess Altfuture wanted to make it easier to drive, since most people will start with the S060 before getting the S282

[ornate spindle]

Wait a sec, Satiric. You said it was possible to disable the safety valve?

[shadow raft]

Not exactly disable, but raise the value by an unreasonable number.

[ornate spindle]

Actually that would be neat.

Just a mod that allows you to close the safety valve. And force it close.

And running above 13 bars slowly causes damage

[pseudo jungle]

best friend of charleston would like to have a word with you

[nova mason]

Love the place for dumb, highly specific stuff like this

Took me too long to arrive

[pseudo jungle]

It also took best friend too long to arrive

[inland garnet]

lmao

[rose leaf]

I don't if possible but add 2-6-6-0 to rearrange s282
Tho the wheel Will be need be so small that it can go only to 40 - 60 kmh

This is cc50, this is 2-6-6-0
It can go only 50 kmh and has 1200 hp

[tender root]

Will be looking into articulated arrangements eventually, but it'll be a while

[nova mason]

out of interest, what's the challenge associated with articulating the preexisting s282? I've got exactly zero unity experience, but assume its more than just moving parts around. Somehow messing with how the game associates wheels to track, with one set wheels fixed with the others trailing? Seems like there were several locomotive mods before simulator so something changed there too

[tender root]

There are a few tricky things:

1. adding a second set of steam engine and traction simulation, since we'd want the front engine to slip independently of the rear engine. Luckily I've already done this bit for the duplexes so I can just reuse that code
2. getting the front engine to actually articulate. Helpfully, the S282 already has two invisible bogies, so we can just move the front one around and put the entire front engine in it
3. the bogie rotation only updates like once or twice a second. I'd want this to look a little smoother than it does currently
4. getting the front coupler to move with the front engine. In theory, this should be as simple as making the coupler a child of the front bogie and updating all the references. But there may be some strange physics issues to deal with
5. if I want to add compound mallets, I'd have to figure that simulation code out. It's doable, there's just a bunch of details to work out, like the simpling valve.
6. Of course I'd have to model the front engine frame
7. If I want the steam connections between the smokebox, the front engine, and the rear engine to properly articulate, then I'd have to figure out how to do that, and model all the required parts separately.

It seems doable; it's just a lot of work.

[shadow raft]

If you ever try to make the compound simulation, consider contributing it to CCL too BTW.

If things go well it should be relatively simple to add articulateds, but only on the next version as that code would come with the steamer part which we might not include in the next release.

[nova mason]

for no.3 i did notice that bogies can look a little choppy at times when going round tight bends. Guessing it is computationally taxing to increase the update rate?

[shadow raft]

And it isn't very compelling to increase it because you aren't really looking at the bogies most of the time.

[tender root]

The basics of it is just connecting the exhaust of ReciprocatingSteamEngine to the intake of another ReciprocatingSteamEngine, perhaps with a receiver pipe between them. Although the simpling valve simulation is a bit complicated. Yeah if I ever get around to it, it will be open sourced and you should just be able to take the necessary SimComponents and copy paste them into CCL

[tender root]

yeah that was my guess as well

[tender root]

I guess the receiver pipe is a bit complicated too since ideally you'd want that to store steam as well.

[shadow raft]

Yeah.

[tender root]

You'd want to read the exhaust flow rate of the HP cylinder, use that to calculate the pressure in the receiver pipe, then use that pressure as the cylinder pressure of the LP cylinder

[pseudo jungle]

would also be good to allow it to have no reciever pipe for things like 4 cylinder compounsd

[tender root]

wdym?

[pseudo jungle]

vauclain compounds have no reciever pipe

becuse the cylinders are on top of eachother

[tender root]

oh that kind of four cylinder

[pseudo jungle]

aye

theres also balanced compounds

with 4 seperate cylinders with their own crossheads and rods

[shadow raft]

I've also been informed of tandem compounds.

[pseudo jungle]

yeah

[tender root]

yeah you'd probably still use the receiver pipe, just make the volume very small

[shadow raft]

Which were surprisingly common in the US it seems.

[pseudo jungle]

vauclain and balanced compounds were the most common non-articlated ones

mallets were ofc the most common compound in the US period

[tender root]

balanced compound? Like a three cylinder?

[tender root]

Is that essentially the same as Vauclain, just packaged differently?

[pseudo jungle]

basically instead of having two cylinders share a crosshead they all have their own

[tender root]

Sounds like a pain in the ass to animate lol

but it is cool

[pseudo jungle]

so you get 4 power strokes per revolution instead of 2

smoother torque basically

[tender root]

interesting

[pseudo jungle]

the increased maintenance made them very uncommon

[tender root]

Of the rigid compound engines, the most likely to enter the mod IMO is cross compound

[pseudo jungle]

some of them were also kinda ugly

looks like a pacific thats missing a driver 😭

[tender root]

lol yeah

[pseudo jungle]

i mean you could do a balanced compound 4-4-2 if you were feeling brave

that was the most common arrangement for some reason

if you wanted to do a vauclain compound i could give you the cylinders and crosshead from my mikado as well

[tender root]

I'm also trying my best to limit the scope creep haha

[pseudo jungle]

fair

[tender root]

There's a million things I could add to the mod

[pseudo jungle]

the nice part about compounding is all of them basically function the same way

so you only really need to code it once

[ornate spindle]

Like a 2-4-4-4?

[tender root]

never really existed

[ornate spindle]

True.

[pseudo jungle]

speaking of adding things to the mod i need to work on that booster truck model

[ornate spindle]

But I do want more wheel adhesion

[tender root]

Plus I don't really like the look of the 4 wheel trailing truck on the 4-4-4-4 anyway

[ornate spindle]

But not as little as the 2-4-4-2

[ornate spindle]

Also true.

[pseudo jungle]

the 4 wheel trailing truck would look so much better with an outside frame

[ornate spindle]

I agree,

[pseudo jungle]

inside frame 4 wheel trailing trucks were almost nonexistant, i only know of one example

[tender root]

Yeah there's not much space for the outside frame, but if it could be made to fit then I agree

[ornate spindle]

In my whole opinion?

Once/if you make that firebox expansion you’ll have a whole lot of room.

[pseudo jungle]

i could model a simple trailing truck frame to include

[ornate spindle]

For stuff like the 6-4-4-6

[pseudo jungle]

wouldnt be a full frame just enough to cover the wheels

[tender root]

Would be neat if you have the time yeah. 4 and 2 axle would be nice, but 4 axle especially

[pseudo jungle]

this is the only 4 wheel inside frame trailing truck ive ever seen

[tender root]

yeah that definitely looks strange haha

[pseudo jungle]

(ironically that loco is on my list of things id like to do, but in its rebuilt form as a 4-4-2)

[shadow raft]

That is a locomotive.

[tender root]

The small wooden wheels also look strange to me

I'm so used to the solid ones

[pseudo jungle]

as rebuilt

[tender root]

It's like they just took every firebox vertex and multiplied the X value by 1.5

[ornate spindle]

I personally am just bothered when the tender isn’t the same hight as the cab

[pseudo jungle]

most tenders arent tho

[ornate spindle]

Eh, the ones I care about are.

4-8-4, 2-8-4, 4-6-4, 4-6-2

[shadow raft]

You can't say an arrangement always had tenders with the same height as the cab.

[ornate spindle]

I can?

Look up any photo of a 4-8-4 and find one where the tender isn’t as tall as the loco.

It’s because of the era they’re built.

[pseudo jungle]

its not the same height

[shadow raft]

Is this the same height?

[ornate spindle]

Eh, actually yes.

[pseudo jungle]

they aren't

they're shorter than the roof of the cab

[ornate spindle]

Being off by a foot is better than 5 feet off.

[ornate spindle]

…

Ok got nothing there.

[pseudo jungle]

(this lil guy is also on my list of things to make ;))

[ornate spindle]

I plead no comment.

[shadow raft]

Having it flush looks better, I agree, but there's always exceptions.

[pseudo jungle]

it depends a lot on the loco

[ornate spindle]

True,

[pseudo jungle]

locos with cabs significantly taller than the boiler look weird with tall ass tenders

[ornate spindle]

Prr Coast to coast?

[pseudo jungle]

also the tender is never as tall as the cab because you need clearance for the roof

[shadow raft]

I'd argue even what is being pulled matters.

[ornate spindle]

Exactly,

That what I mean by mostly a foot difference.

[shadow raft]

Oh god

[pseudo jungle]

how much coal do you want?

all of it

[ornate spindle]

Christ, did it have a stoker?

[tender root]

I would assume so, at that size

[ornate spindle]

Anyway my personally requirements for a tender on any loco?

The tender must be at least 2/3 the size of the locomotive

And also it should be around the same height.

Good examples!

[inland garnet]

so theoretically an 8-10-10-8 would have a pretty long and tall tender, right?

[ornate spindle]

Eh, at least the hight and size of the loco

It Should apply to the 2/3.

Not say all loco’s do, most do! But they all should

Or else they look dinky aesthetically, and would be functionally inadequate.

[pseudo jungle]

not neccesarily

[ornate spindle]

I mean you can always boil it down to “it depends on what it’s for”

[pseudo jungle]

case in point:

[ornate spindle]

My point still stands for that.

[pseudo jungle]

had very small tenders because they were intended as pushers and also needed to fit on the virginians existing turntables

it was functionally adequate

[ornate spindle]

True,

I mean of course the switcher should have a smaller tender for shunting.

[pseudo jungle]

it looks goofy sure but nobody really cared how good something looked as long as it worked

[ornate spindle]

And of course the banker doesn’t need a massive tender

[pseudo jungle]

caring about aesthetics is mostly a present day thing

[ornate spindle]

But for mixed traffic, heavy freight, fast freight, and passenger work, all those engines should follow the 2/3

[pseudo jungle]

still not really accurate

[ornate spindle]

Again should.

[pseudo jungle]

fast freight power, had small tenders to allow them to use COG's existing turntables

[ornate spindle]

The water capacity on that feels inadequate.

I mean turntables are a limit, of course they are.

[pseudo jungle]

they never gave them larger tenders so it must've been fine

[ornate spindle]

I mean stations probably were close enough for it not to be a big deal. Just refill every three or so depots.

Still feels like there should be more water for that large of an engine.

[ornate spindle]

That is also 1/2 the size of the engine, like the s282

Engines like those probably couldn’t run long distances in the middle of nowhere.

[pseudo jungle]

they didnt need to

tender size is almost always dictated by route conditions and servicing facilities

[ornate spindle]

True.

[pseudo jungle]

;)

[ornate spindle]

Aw yeah! It’s all coming together!

Looks great

my friends took my phone, instead of do anything they changed my auto correct to stupid stuff

[swift island]

Holy crap it's CC50

[ornate spindle]

Oh yeah! Those engines always were cute!

[pseudo jungle]

suspension starting

[tender root]

dang looks sick

[pseudo jungle]

basically just gotta do the booster engine itself and the modelling will be basically done

[rocky swallow]

thing is the output pressure from the HP somewhat depends on the existence of the LP too

[rocky swallow]

except in France it'd seem

[pseudo jungle]

because the French seemingly had a fetish for efficiency

The US cared a lot more about reliability and accessibility because locomotives were expected to go for thousands of miles without major overhaul

[rocky swallow]

interestingly enough the first 4cyl balanced compounds we built were both cheaper to maintain and more reliable than our older 2 cyl locos, as per the reports i have read

overall having divided power output through all 4 cylinders was very important for stress in the linkages

something i suppose wasn't as visible in the US because the gauge gave more room for thicker running gear

[pseudo jungle]

we preferred to just make the cylinders larger if we needed more power

[rocky swallow]

better metallurgy most likely

and gauge constraints

[pseudo jungle]

Yea

[rocky swallow]

right before switching to trying out 4cyl compounds the Nord tried out a 2 cyl loco with enlarged cylinders, very efficient and well running but both the cranked axle and frame were either ruptured or cracked after 65000kms

so the Nord went "uhoh" and took a slightly older 4cyl prototype to upgrade it

(that prototype being a duplex compound 2-4-0, N°701 and built in 1885)

[languid badge]

POV: American train designers when told they needed to make engines with more power:
“What we need to achieve this is to take the cylinders and ADD MORE ZEROES!”

[rocky swallow]

no, they just changed all the measurements except gauge from inches to feet

[nova mason]

didnt they have to import literally all their coal or something

so every grain saved meant alot

[manic estuary]

Pretty sure it would be Italy

[chrome vortex]

yup, Italy

[rocky swallow]

no but half of our coal was going into the railways

and depending on where it came from it varied a lot in quality

[ornate spindle]

How fast are the high speed wheel arrangements again?

[desert silo]

no it does not

[tender root]

Good to know, thanks for testing that

[slender oasis]

This has suggestion over 5200 messages!

[ornate spindle]

That it does.

I'm glad I suggested this.

[humble frost]

I mean it's just a good idea, we get the variety of like 20 different trains in one, no ccl needed

and we got duplexes which I cannot live without even tho it drops my frames by like 30

[tender root]

huh didn't realize the frame drop was that big for some people. I wonder why

[tender root]

Is it harder on the CPU, or the GPU?

[humble frost]

honestly not sure, probably my cpu though I am kinda running on a potato, little toaster absolutely will run anything if I mess with it enough and it'll still look good

I got a 1050 2gb GPU and some old i5 out of an optiplex I got for 20 bucks

[ornate spindle]

Exactly!

[humble frost]

and I do have the Chinese s282 mod as well because cool smoke deflectors and camera

[desert silo]

the chinese 282 new update tends to drop my frames a bit so i think its that not the duplex

[nova mason]

This is the way

[humble frost]

what other way would there be, I spent maybe 100 bucks building this thing like 3 years ago and it's truckin

[humble frost]

and fair enough, I just did notice frame drops with rearranged 282 with the mesh splitter and duplex update

and the Chinese one gets my frames down to 15 when im approaching a station, but only when it's loading in cars

I am running it at almost max graphics tho since turning down the graphics doesn't affect performance a whole lot, so I get good looking trains at a playable fps

[desert silo]

yeah my frames are like 100-120 till I get into a station then I run a hard 30fps

ion know why but it’s aight

[rich steeple]

hey @tender root i keep forgetting to mention this but in the mods settings for Rearranged 282 the randomly spawns tab. your missing the 4-6-4

[tender root]

Huh yeah guess I forgot about that one. Will be fixed in the next update

[rich steeple]

righto

[vagrant tendon]

Heyo just checking in to see how progress with the articulating steam bois is going

[tender root]

Been mostly working on boosters. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to add controls to the cab

There's a clutch lever to engage/disengage the booster (which also controls the booster throttle), and a lever to idle the booster (a valve that bypasses the throttle to let a little bit of air past).

I've heard anecdotes about how you should be able to momentarily turn on the booster's cylinder cocks, but from reading Franklin's literature it seems like they automatically turn on and off

[vagrant tendon]

Im not familiar with boosters, what are they for?

[tender root]

It's a small geared steam engine, either on the trailing axles or on the tender, that adds a bit of tractive effort at low speeds

[maiden lark]

What the hell

apperently that is a boostered loco

[tender root]

I mean I'd just call it the world's weirdest duplex

[lucid zenith]

Hear me out, 2-8-8-8

[short void]

?????

[ornate spindle]

Here me out, 2-4-4-4

[rich steeple]

Hear my out.
2-4-6-8-10.

[ornate spindle]

Here ny out. M-497

[lucid zenith]

2-6-6-6 Allegheny, 2-8-8-8 ???

modify 2-8-8-2 with a set of 8 trailing trucks, give it giant firebox

[chrome vortex]

and absolutely no adhesion

[short void]

?!?!?!?!

[lucid zenith]

hey, its better than the 8-8-8-8

I have three locomotive wheel arrangements that I would love to see come to a game or reality (yes i know, very impractical and probably wouldn't work)

1. 2-8-8-8
2. 2-12-12-6
3. 2-2-2-2-2-2 (2-8-2 but with 4x the pistons)

[tender root]

1 and 2 won't fit on the S282; The independently powered axle weirdness might fit but it'd be a pain to model and a pain to simulate

[maiden lark]

sterling single s282 when

[tulip canopy]

what is the mod that can do that?

[tender root]

Rearranged S282 can do that

do you mean the smoke deflector mod?

[tulip canopy]

yeah but mainly the wheels

[tender root]

yeah the wheels are already in Rearranged S282

[tulip canopy]

that does not look bad at all, shuffling the wheels around gave new possiblities to this steamer

[tender root]

Smoke deflectors are possible with the Chinese S282 mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/derailvalley/mods/921), that screenshot was taken with this mod which isn't quite finished https://github.com/aeughsendhelp/dumb282tweaks/releases/tag/v0.1

[tulip canopy]

that makes so much sense, i love where this is going

[mellow ocean]

wiz helped me fix the Chinese S282 mod archive reload issue. I removed the CCTV feature by the way, it bugs are really hard to fix and affects performance. 😓

Fix save reload

[tulip canopy]

yes the cctv showed like weird artifacts, and parts of the map overlapping the railway

[tender root]

That's a shame, the CCTV was super cool

[quiet wave]

Hey @tender root there has been an issue in the latest hyce video. Where the front angle cock wasn't interactable on a 0-8-2.
Also hyce has made a tractive effort myth busting video that could be used to verify your math

[tender root]

oh yeah someone posted about that on the nexus page. I'll take a look. I guess I never use that angle cock haha

Yeah I watched that video, his calcs weren't any different than what I'm already doing

[ornate spindle]

Hey satiric, do you still plan to make that “coast to coast” tender for the duplex? Or is that still not possible without CCL

[tender root]

I think it would be possible if I just stretched the existing tender, but I have a lot of other stuff I want to do

[ornate spindle]

Yeah, I saw wiz make a meme version of that.

Posted it here.

[tender root]

Once CCL is updated, you should be able to use any tender with any steam locomotive that uses tenders

[ornate spindle]

Wait what do you plan to work on next anyway?

I know the plan was at least getting duplexes.

[tender root]

Duplexes are basically done. I'm currently working on a mod to improve the steam simulation a bit, then I'll be going back to getting boosters to work

[ornate spindle]

Ah.

So steam simulation>boosters>S060 Rearranged?

[tender root]

yeah that's the idea anyway

[ornate spindle]

Seems like a lot to do, but I believe in you.

Who knows you might be done with boosters by the end of the year.

[ornate spindle]

Hey I got the 5300 message,

Nice.

[rain sigil]

Just thought you might want to know: the 3rd thing actually existed in the real world, the germans tried it in the 1930s

[inland garnet]

i love how you can tell this post was made before simulator because it says SH282 instead of S282

[ornate spindle]

Oh no it was made right after sim,

I just happen to be a overhaul player.

See?

[shadow raft]

2 weeks after in fact.

[inland garnet]

ah

[ornate spindle]

Its a shame things here have slowed down, then again. satiric has been hard at work, working on his steam sim mod.

[vagrant tendon]

ye, think the last bit i heard about it was he was trying to get different steam chest maxes for different wheel arrangements, particularly the duplex

[tender root]

also been working on refactoring the Rearranged S282 code so it isn't as cancerous

after I finish that I want to get back to working on the boosters

[chrome vortex]

What ya changing?

[tender root]

This file is getting broken up into multiple https://github.com/pjschinske/dv-rearranged-S282/blob/main/RearrangedS282/WheelRearranger.cs

[chrome vortex]

Aiit, but what would that accomplish exactly?

[tender root]

It's still all basically procedural code but it puts related code next to each other (everything touching the leading wheels is together, etc). Was hard to work in before since it was so cluttered

[ornate spindle]

I’m actually curious to see how this will improve workflow.

[ornate spindle]

@tender root sorry for the ping but who else would I ask, how do you access the air break release valve on 4-6-x arrangement?

Not sure what it’s exactly called, but the massive red handle that allows you to unlock the air brakes and allow the engine to free roll.

Has that been moved elsewhere, or is it just impossible to reach on 4-6-x

[tender root]

I haven't moved it, should be possible but let me open the game and see

I never tested it because I never use it 😅

Works for me in my dev version, let me check the release version

[shadow raft]

If the colliders never change, the interaction shouldn't either.

It doesn't matter if the model blocks or not.

[tender root]

Should be possible if you walk all the way up to the locomotive. You can also access it from the third person GUI if that's easier

Yeah I don't think I'm changing the colliders

[ornate spindle]

I “need” to use it all the time.

I usually have at least one Engine explode every play session.

[tender root]

Fair enough. Yeah it's working for me

[ornate spindle]

It’s kinda hard to get that thing rolling with a tiny DE2.

It’s always on the MB to HB stretch on the map.

I always run out of water and end up having to haul a scrap loco to the HB sheds by the end.

[shadow raft]

I wonder how, considering it's all downhill.

[ornate spindle]

I usually don’t douse the fire.

Gotta stay on time.

[shadow raft]

I don't either, and always get there at least half full still.

[ornate spindle]

Ah, I never said I stared from MB.

[shadow raft]

.-.

[ornate spindle]

I start from CSW.

[shadow raft]

You said MB to HB, then haul to HB shed.

[ornate spindle]

And stop at a PAX station on the MB>HB stretch.

I pass MB. On my way down to HB.

[shadow raft]

Then you gotta say HN for Highlands North.

No refilling at FF?

[ornate spindle]

I start as CSW, pass by GFT, run up past MB and then down to HB

[ornate spindle]

Don’t stop there.

[shadow raft]

GF is even easier, since it's actually on the pass through.

[ornate spindle]

Wait you can refill there?

[shadow raft]

Yes.

[ornate spindle]

Does it have a loop?

I’d rather not have to back out.

[shadow raft]

Coming out of the platform (it always stops at C3LP)

Might not be exactly where I marked, but it's on that straight track.

Yeah other side of the track lol

[ornate spindle]

How much do you think it will dent my timetable?

[shadow raft]

+1-2 minutes depending on your alignment skills.

[ornate spindle]

Do we know if this mod still works with the latest build?

[halcyon sonnet]

It does not

[ornate spindle]

Makes sense,

[short void]

Ooooooof

[still spoke]

Yeah they did rework the valve gear

[tender root]

Biggest thing will be moving the lubrication cups around. IDK what I'll do for the duplex. Luckily the lubrication cups are a different mesh, I don't think I'm going to have to redo any of the Loco Mesh Splitter stuff

[shadow raft]

They are probably just objects on top like the fuel hoses or charging port.

[tender root]

yeah they're part of the interior like the doors

[shadow raft]

Looked at them now, they're different from those other ones I mentioned, but simple enough.

Adding more also looks rather trivial.

[tender root]

yeah, might add a few for the rear cylinders IDK. Was thinking about adding another mechanical lubricator for the rear but I couldn't be bothered

[shadow raft]

Lubricator is worse to add TBH

[tender root]

yeah

Would be nice if the lubricator crank spun when the locomotive moves, like it does in real life

[shadow raft]

The update video shows it moving when cranked manually, but is it still static when moving?

[tender root]

yeah I think so

I mean maybe some types of mechanical lubricator don't do that, IDK

[shadow raft]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[tender root]

Just realized I have to move the colliders for placing brackets

Or however the brackets work

[shadow raft]

Yeah I had that realisation with Car Changer too.

Unsure to which colliders it attaches.

And what happens if Car Changer moves a collider with stuff on it...

[tender root]

The interior has a set of MeshColliders under [GadgetMeshColliders], I bet it's that

Huh so it's based on the LOD1 mesh

[shadow raft]

Suspiciously appropriate name...

It's just the LOD1 mesh?

[tender root]

For the body and smokebox door yeah. For the cab it's s282_cab and s282_things. For the glass it's s282_glass. They're in the gameobject name so it's easy to tell what's what with Runtime Unity Editor

[shadow raft]

Hmmm it'll be painful for more detailed changes but oh well.

I guess I can add a slot for that in the colliders, but people won't be able to move the headlight collider for example.

[tender root]

OK so every locomotive has a CustomizationPlacementMeshes component on the root TrainCar that contains the collision meshes. So I just have to remove the vanilla ones and add my own

[shadow raft]

Guh that means it'll be a bit more painful...

Eh I'll figure it out once I get to it...

[tender root]

And there's another one on TrainCar.loadedInterior, aka LocoS282A_Interior(Clone), for the interior meshes

[shadow raft]

https://tenor.com/view/fade-away-oooooooooooo-aga-emoji-crumble-gif-20008708

[tender root]

yeah I was kinda dreading the customization update lol, I had a feeling it was gonna make my life difficult

I'm just glad that you can't place gadgets on moving parts

[shadow raft]

I feared it'd make Car Changer obsolete but I still got a lot of features the vanilla update doesn't have.

No light bars on the valve gear 😔

[tender root]

and it had better stay that way

[tender root]

Still got a few bugs to iron out but the new skins look neat on the duplexes

The lubrication cups move with the drivetrain so the default positions work fine for most of the arrangements

[shadow raft]

So no added cups for the duplexes then?

[tender root]

yeah I'll still have to add them for the duplexes

I just don't need to move them around for all the different driver sizes

[manic estuary]

Does 2-0-2 makes game mad because it has no rods?

[tender root]

Oh yeah I guess it does look a little weird lol

Game works fine, it just looks strange

[manic estuary]

Well this thing is a meme anyway

[tender root]

yeah might just keep it that way lol

[pseudo jungle]

@tender root will you add oilers to the booster

I need to send you the model when I get off work in a couple hours

lowkey think it would be really funny if you made it so you had to fill the booster with oil before running it

[tender root]

Huh I guess I could, I hadn't thought about it. Yeah thanks for doing that model. I think I will do an update without the booster, just so that I can get all my mods working with B99, then go back to the booster

[pseudo jungle]

I can also include some models for the articulated piping for the booster if you want to include that

[tender root]

Looks like on the franklin booster, the cylinders and valves were lubricated from the locomotive's mechanical lubricator, but the gears had their own oil

[pseudo jungle]

personally I think it'd look weird without any piping but I'm a nerd for shit like that

[tender root]

I also think it would be weird without the piping

At least the main steam supply

[pseudo jungle]

Yeah I'm talking about the big fat pipes that feed and exhaust the steam

its basically a closed loop going from one side of the loco cylinder block to the other

Except for the ones that exhaust to atmosphere

The pipes use ball joints to allow them to move with the truck and it's a really neat system

The bit between the loco and tender is basically set up the same way

Looking at it from the cylinder end of the truck the left pipe is live steam and the right one is exhaust

[tender root]

hmm trickier than I thought

[pseudo jungle]

you could cheat and just have the piping be fixed to the truck

the only ones who will know will be me, you, and anyone else who reads this thread lmao

[tender root]

Would have to be an animation that's based off of the rotation of the truck. Might be able to reuse some of the wheel rotation via animation logic...

Well I can make it fixed first, then see how it looks

I mean honestly the stock water hose isn't setting a very high bar

[pseudo jungle]

I have them rigged in blender on that loco so that they follow the truck in the side to side and up and down axis

its a simple armature with 2 bones

[tender root]

Ah ok. Well we'll see. I haven't had to mess around with that kind of animation before

[pseudo jungle]

honestly I wonder if thered be some way to do them in unity, i know @shadow raft was working on flexible piping for articulated locos at one point

[tender root]

Yeah I think it would need to be in unity

[shadow raft]

It's quite simple really, in this case with a rigid pipe you just need a LookAt().

If it starts bouncing up and down tho, RIP.

Could get real weird real fast.

[pseudo jungle]

well the way there are set up they kinda hang down

[shadow raft]

But with the size of the pipe, probably not noticeable enough.

[tender root]

Well in that image, there are two moving pipes, would that still work?

[pseudo jungle]

the pipes between the loco and tender have 3 sections

you can see them under the cab here

[tender root]

Oh I see there's the bit up front as well

[pseudo jungle]

yeah that really fat yellow pipe is the live steam feed line, it's a 3.5" diameter pipe

the exhaust line on the other side is a 4" diameter pipe

[shadow raft]

You can see how it gets goofy.

[pseudo jungle]

actually it may be the other way around and the exhaust is smaller than the live steam

I'll have to check when I get home

[tender root]

I would imagine the exhaust would be bigger, same mass flow rate of steam but the pressure is lower

But I might be thinking about it wrong

[pseudo jungle]

I'm not 100% sure how the piping works on tenders with two boosters

[shadow raft]

There's a 2nd option.

LookAt is cheaper but kinda breaks down once you need complex linkages.

You can use bones and physics to control it, just attach the 2 points and it'll figure out the rest.

[misty anchor]

that feels strange to see it with buffers

[pseudo jungle]

lowkey think it would be kinda funny if you could make it so that if the truck gets turned too far like in a derailment the piping comes apart and just starts pissing steam everywhere

[tender root]

lol

[pseudo jungle]

cus it can only turn like 15 degrees or so before it starts being weird

[tender root]

Well RN I have the booster exhausting out the top of the tender. Which is the quick and dirty way to do it, and it saves half the piping

[dense palm]

Wait this mod has a booster? The reading 2102 would like to know your location

[tender root]

we're working on it

[dense palm]

that's sooooo cool

[pseudo jungle]

You'd still have to have the inlet and exhaust piping going to the booster, you'd just have one less pipe between the loco and tender

[tender root]

Well it could just exhaust straight out of the booster

But yeah

[pseudo jungle]

the booster exhausting into the smokebox also would give you extra draft making your fire burn hotter when it's engaged

idk if you could actually code it to do that but it'd be cool if you could

[tender root]

I think so, the duplexes already do that IIRC

[dense palm]

Can't wait for this but I can cause all the new stuff in b99 will keep me busy untill this gonna be cool af

[tender root]

I think the next update will just be getting the existing stuff working, and once I have all my mods updated for B99 I can get back to work on the booster

[tender root]

I guess if we're having to figure out the process for moving pipes, one or two more isn't gonna be a problem

On the loco side I guess it would probably enter the frame/smokebox in one of these areas. Might be hard to route around all random stuff from different arrrangements

Unfortunately the S282 is superheated so the high pressure side can't just connect to the dome

[pseudo jungle]

the live steam line comes out of the branch pipe into the cylinder

the exhaust goes into the cylinder block itself and is routed into the exhaust passages cast into the block

for the s282 itd probably just go into the smokebox

[tender root]

I just realized that this Franklin book says that the exhaust can just condense into the tender "on a typical locomotive booster tender application". I mean, I'd make the argument that no tender boosters are typical, but it seems like a neat idea

then there's a manually operated valve to discharge into the atmosphere when desired... IDK why you'd want that though, unless the tender is just completely overflowing with water

A quick google says the German T38 had a system like that. Of course not from Franklin though lol. I wonder if Franklin actually put that condensing system onto a locomotive

[ornate spindle]

I forgot, are both boggies going to be powered? or just the one

[tender root]

Just one

For now anyway

[lavish nacelle]

so, near infinite range on just the tender booster ?

[tulip canopy]

ol' rusty crusty

[dense palm]

See we just need a northern then we can have a trailing truck booster instead of a tender one (I didn't even know these were a thing)

[ornate spindle]

Don’t forget Berkshires.

(And also Pacific’s and Baltic’s)

Man, imagine the shear overkill of having a trailing booster, and two tender boosters

On like, a duplex or something

What would you even classify that as?

4-4-4-4-4-4?

Or would it be 4-4-4-4+4-4

[pseudo jungle]

tender boosters are cooler fight me

[pseudo jungle]

4-4-4-4

boosters aren't counted as driven under whyte

[ornate spindle]

Huh.

[dense palm]

You would need a big boy sized boiler

[ornate spindle]

That seems like a foresight.

[dense palm]

As i said I only ever knew of the trail truck boosters

[ornate spindle]

Or just, rapidly boil a lot of water, by making the fire around 1300

[pseudo jungle]

I mean when a locomotive has a booster it's generally pretty obvious if you know what you're looking for

[dense palm]

Berks are cool af imo

[pseudo jungle]

There's no need to add it to the wheel arrangement

[dense palm]

This^

[ornate spindle]

Berkshires has got to be the superior wheel arrangement.

More pulling power then most pacific’s, and weigh less then most northern’s.

While still having a large firebox.

[dense palm]

Big ahhh firebox and more weight on the drivers

[ornate spindle]

Exactly.

[dense palm]

And still has the 2 wheel lead truck so it doesn't hunt to death

[pseudo jungle]

the pipe going straight down directly underneath the 4 and the 3 is the booster steam line

with the conical ends

all booster piping has ends like that, they're articulated joints that allow it to function on curves

If you see a locomotive with that it has a booster

[dense palm]

If it wasn't for your text I thought that was just the world's biggest injector line lol

[pseudo jungle]

The injector is immediately to the right of the booster line you can see the big flexible water hose feeding into it

[dense palm]

So where's the steam line to the tender?

[pseudo jungle]

injectors don't have a steam line going to the tender

[dense palm]

For the booster

[pseudo jungle]

oh

lemme grab a pic

[dense palm]

Also that's one big injector water line lol but I'm used to the smol little narrow Guage stuff

[pseudo jungle]

that's the water line on the other side

[dense palm]

Thats kind of what I was thinking when I looked at it again

[shadow raft]

Steam, water, it's all the same thing

[dense palm]

I can't type today

[pseudo jungle]

tender booster piping

[dense palm]

Lol not wrong

Yeah I guess for super heated steam you kind of need steel pipe a injecter water line won't like 1100⁰f steam lol

Or the press

[shadow raft]

The solution is really a 2nd firebox and boiler in the tender.

[dense palm]

[dense palm]

At that point it's just a fairly

[tender root]

Theoretically, maybe. But the booster basically just takes steam from after the throttle, so you have to open the locomotive throttle to get power from the booster.

I still haven't finalized how I want to route the exhaust though.

[lavish nacelle]

shame

[dense palm]

[tender root]

It makes it easier to operate, so there's only one throttle to deal with instead of two

[dense palm]

There's a reason the UP bigboys didn't have 2 throttles so it makes sense boosters would have that same reason

[lavish nacelle]

make it lamer to operate more like

[rocky swallow]

if atlantics can end up with two throttles then everything can

[tender root]

There will still be a lever to engage the booster, and a lever to idle the booster on steam from the dome so that you can get the cylinder cocks going before you engage the booster. Should still be fun to operate

[quiet wave]

Well you can put the reverser into the middle, to prevent the main engine from taking steam out the chest. Then you could almost run exclusively on the booster

[shadow raft]

https://tenor.com/view/glasses-tf2-gif-9251452

[dense palm]

Everything about that is beyond cursed

[ornate spindle]

What does the coal capacity on that.

[tender root]

There's a latch that automatically shuts off the booster once you bring the reverser below like 66% or something (so that you don't have the booster engaged when you're going fast). So you'd have to hold that latch closed

[rich steeple]

Normally It was demanded to be turned off around 20MPH

[tender root]

Yup

[lavish nacelle]

we have solder gun to always hold it open

[ornate spindle]

Thank you for your wisdom Pedro, I will do this personally.

Mainly just see if I can use a lantern or shelf

[torn tide]

Is this currently incompatible with B99? I seem to be having trouble with it and wanted to make sure it wasn't just a me issue.

[regal tendon]

no it is not compatible with b99 yet

[dense palm]

you can tell how old this is cause its still sh282 and not s282

[ornate spindle]

Oh, I just call it SH282 because I’m use to calling that.

This was made durning simulator.

[tender root]

I know I picked the wrong name for the mod because no one ever calls it by its actual name lol

[dense palm]

oh lol

[tender root]

everyone always gets it slightly wrong

[dense palm]

tbh i dont even remember the mod name i got it once hyce made a vid on it and havent messed with it other then to turn it off for b99

found it

lol

[quiet wave]

hey satiric, In a recent video from hyce (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuU9MWdxXYI) you can see how the new steam simulation behaves.

It seems they've enforced bringing the cutoff to the center at higher speed, by making the regulator fail at pressurizing the steam chest.

they also mention this in the changelog here

Sounds like they intend for the "filling rate" to be less than the "exhaustion rate" as a gameplay mechanic. "You need to trim the cutoff, or else you don't get power"

The result is that the "filling rate" feels weirdly slow. Increasing the cutoff at speed used to be a choice between full power and economical use of steam. And you could dump all the steam from the boiler to get extra power for a tonnage momentum run up the hill

But with this nerfed regulator you can make steam faster than you can admit it to the steam chest

Running with an open throttle, max cutoff. And the safety is still lifting

...
Anyway that got me wondering how much steam flowrate would be possible in an actual throttle valve in full open position?

and i found this vid, also from hyce (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXMJRZqOrKU)

you can see the throttle plug and then the dry pipe has quite a lot of cross section area. so i think the regulator filling rate that you've had in this mod previously would be more realistic

Soo, writing about this here. Cause if the current behavior is what Altfuture intends as a gameplay mechanic, then we probably can't change their mind.

But when you get around to updating this mod. Maybe throttle valve max flow rate, is something that you can play with.
Having unique filling rates for each wheel arrangement. Some locomotives intended for economical running, and other for maximum acceleration

[quiet wave]

A superheater is intended to get more work from the steam, Letting the steam release heat by expanding in the cylinder, with a trimmed cutoff.
So using a superheater is more economical, but it provides a restriction to the max filling rate.
So I guess a locomotive geared for peak power would either have a bypass of the superheater, or would even opt for no superheater being installed

to enable increased filling rates

[ornate spindle]

I still feel like the wheel arrangements should change two parts about the steam sim,
the X-X-4 should have fireboxes that produce more heat then normal depending on how many trailing wheels there are, and the 4-X-X should be able to 'larger cylinders' which allow more steam flow.

Or just power.

Even if it isn't visual, there really isn't any differences from the wheel arrangements apart from wheel adhesion, and driver size.

I'm talking about most of the X-8-X's and X-6-X

[quiet wave]

I agree with that, but "larger cylinders" would just mean more "exhaustion rate". If the throttle can't keep up then you don't get any more power from them

[ornate spindle]

Yeah

Driving a 2-8-2 has no large difference dynamically then a 4-8-4

apart from a slightly higher chance of derailment

[quiet wave]

like maybe the s282 should be an economical engine with small cyllinders and small firebox. It would have much more range but if you get it going quickly then the regulator is failing to keep the chest full

[ornate spindle]

The 2-8-2 should stay the same and be a basis for all the other wheel arangements.

[quiet wave]

but an s484 should be a tonnage beast that will run out of coal right after the hill

[ornate spindle]

We wouldn't want to isolate people who are use to how the stock unmodded sh282 is

[silver prairie]

Agreed

or have two ver. of the s282

[ornate spindle]

There techinally 'was' two versions of it in the mod

one with a rescaled trailing wheel

And a normal wheel

It was changable in the config

satiric could just make that slight difference a whole new wheel arrangement, unmodded and tweaked.

But still.

more work.

[quiet wave]

and then a s482 would be a passenger express train. High acceleration. loosing boiler pressure at speed over the road, as the firebox can't keep up.
but then stopping at a station, the firebox catches up and pressure returns for another high acceleration launch

and thanks to having a small firebox, the range would be high so the express can run through the whole map

[ornate spindle]

At the SH282's current state? I could easily run with the cutoff wide open without killing my pressure

its weird

Thats unmodded.

[quiet wave]

yeah but the pressure you are killing is the chest pressure

[ornate spindle]

Oh they made it to where the two are actually more separate?

[quiet wave]

I guess maybe it is realistic at simulating the flow restriction that a superheater would cause

but it just feels too restrictive still

[quiet wave]

Another way to say it is that you are not killing your pressure, because they made the engine weak when at speed

[tender root]

This is basically how it worked with the steam sim tweaks mod. I think they just chose significantly different values for throttle flow rate and steam chest size.

[tender root]

From what I've heard superheater usually don't restrict the flow but there's not a ton of info online

The other thing is that Hyce is used to DRGW 491, a superheated dome throttle engine. Which is a fairly rare setup, and by the thirties front end throttles were very common, even on export locomotives like the S200. So hyce is used to having a ton of throttle lag, but there are a lot of engines out there where the throttle is after the superheater. But with how much lag the S282 has I wonder if they went back to the dome throttle idea

With a superheated, dome throttle engine, it's actually possible to overheat the superheater units if you run with 0 throttle for too long (like when coasting down a hill). That's presumably why 491 has a drifting throttle

[tender root]

The other other thing is that the S282 is much more powerful now, 50,000 lbs of tractive effort vs 38,000 before

So a loss in power due to throttle flow rate might not be as much of a problem

The bigger problem for me is if the S282 is this powerful by default, how do I make the 12 coupled locos at all useful, and not just wheel slip machines

[ornate spindle]

I did suggest this, @tender root

[tender root]

The big 2-8-2 already is a whole new wheel arrangement

The settings were just for the trailing wheel size, not the driver size

[ornate spindle]

I mean the toggle in the config

Yeah

You could make that config a actual arangement.

[tender root]

Trailing wheel size doesn't really change anything in the sim

[ornate spindle]

But you could make it.

[tender root]

I figured people would probably like one better than the other

[ornate spindle]

Having a small difference would be better then just making a arrangement called 'tweaked 2-8-2' that doesn't change anything but steam sim.

[tender root]

I never mentioned significantly changing the 2-8-2?

[ornate spindle]

Oh

I thought you were going to change the tractive effort back to 38,000

To balance it.

[tender root]

I mean that would be one way to do it. Could also just make the big stuff magically heavier like I did before. I like the idea of altering cylinder size with # of leading axles, but that would make the 4-8-x ridiculously powerful

[manic estuary]

So it is why it had less issues pulling load up HB climb this patch, huh

[ornate spindle]

You could still balance it by making the X-8-4 have fireboxes that can reach higher temps then normal

the 4-8-4 would become overly powerful.

but that would be realistic.

[tender root]

That would not get rid of the problem. The problem is still "if the default S282 is very powerful, how can I make a loco of the same weight even more powerful"

[ornate spindle]

Oh, yeah no you should make it heavier.

[tender root]

In terms of power, the S282 is halfway between the 12 coupled engines and the duplexes

[ornate spindle]

You should make the other arangements heavier,

then that promotes people to make mods using car changer that accurately reflect the sim changes

Like with cruz's locomotive tweaks

Not a dependency or anything.

[shadow raft]

If you want accuracy however, you cannot increase the S282's weight anymore, as it is already at the axle load limit.

[ornate spindle]

What about other wheel arangements?

[shadow raft]

With other arrangements, it becomes possible.

[ornate spindle]

Yeah,

[shadow raft]

Then again, for the ones with less axles, slipmaster69 becomes a big issue again lol

[ornate spindle]

price to pay.

[shadow raft]

I guess when the Atlantic was overpowered, if its weight had been reduced, it wouldn't have been as much.

[ornate spindle]

The atlantics really shouldn't have been overpowered

[shadow raft]

And the duplexes wouldn't be as broken as they were.

[ornate spindle]

they weren't irl

Those things really should have slipped and slided all over

[shadow raft]

I wonder if with the new sim it's even worth having that weight increase.

It allows much finer control now, and it'd be a tradeoff of skill to power instead of a direct upgrade.

[tender root]

I'll try. I think the doctor is right, it'll probably be "slip and slide."

There's also the element of even if the S282 is drivable that way, a factor of adhesion of 3 is not exactly realistic; the railroad would almost certainly add weight to make the adhesion better

[shadow raft]

Well, I assume the code for weight changing is flexible enough for easy testing lol

[tender root]

I guess I can also make adding leading and trailing axles less of a weight penalty

[dense palm]

Yeah the steam locos need bigger dry pipes

[tender root]

Visually or in the sim? I agree that they look real weird

On the S282 anyway

[dense palm]

In the sim

Needs more beans

[tender root]

Nah the dry pipe isn't the problem, the steam chest size is already fairly large

[dense palm]

So is that why it takes forever to charge

[tender root]

It takes forever to charge because the throttle's max flow rate is low

[dense palm]

Yeah so more beans it just feels weird that more cutoff is less power now

Someone needs to ask hyce how real that is

Don't feel right to me at least

[tender root]

It is somewhat realistic, more cutoff is only helpful if you can charge the steam chest up to boiler pressure

[dense palm]

Yeah so slow speeds I guess it's more power

But anything over 50% at speed it just dies

[halcyon sonnet]

I'm no steam expert, but from what I understand of physics and mechanics that's actually pretty accurate.

The other thing that changed dramatically in this version which has been really interesting to me for fireman assistant is that exhaust speed is more tied to throttle position now, which makes sense as exhaust speed is a direct function of consumed steam.

The way steam worked in B98 was that regulator could instantly move infinite amount of steam to pressurize the steam chest, but would only raise the steam chest to the pressure of the boiler, reduced by the regulator position. that was very unrealistic. The cutoff would then directly control how fast you are consuming steam, and more forward always meant more power, and pulling it back was only done to improve efficiency.

Now, there's a maximum flow through the throttle body. This is much more realistic. And yes, at speed then, if the cutoff is full forward, you aren't getting a lot of pressure to the cylinders because the steam chest can't fill up fast enough. And you are still losing efficiency because that lower pressure steam can't do as much work as higher pressure steam. In practice though, you are getting similar tractive effort regardless of cutoff position, and counterintuitively it can be easier to keep going on a hill at higher cutoff and lower steam chest pressure because you are applying that pressure over a larger portion of the stroke (cutoff basically determines how long the full pressure of the steam chest is being applied to the pistons, and once the pressure stops being applied, it doesn't just go to 0, it falls off as the piston continues it's stroke, so you do get useful work out of it.

[dense palm]

Its definitely better and the Physics are right I just don't think the numbers are right the throttle max flow rate seems too low other then that this sim is way better then the old one

[tender root]

The weirdest thing for me is the feel of the throttle lever itself. It could be that just making the throttle move faster could make the throttle feel better, even without changing the sim

[shadow raft]

I'll be honest, on desktop I only play with the HUD since 1st person controls always feel awkward as hell, and there I didn't notice any difference.

I have yet to try it in VR this update.

[tender root]

Yeah I think the hud is fine, it's the first person throttle that's weird

[halcyon sonnet]

And I always use keyboard controls for throttle and cutoff

I personally find it moves "fast enough" if you are aware of the track conditions and ahead of the train

[dense palm]

Yeah the throttle and reverser just don't move as fast as they used to it doesn't help I play at 10fps though

If you yank the throttle open and then it slips you get stuck sliping untill you can get it closed

[quiet wave]

Yeah I got that, just meant the new values feeling weird.

Think about it, a fully open throttle is releasing steam slower than new steam is being boiled

[shadow raft]

Since when?

[quiet wave]

Their new firebox airflow sim is irrelevant, cause you can't use the steam fast enough

[shadow raft]

At over 60 a full throttle can't supply enough already.

[quiet wave]

I'm going off of what I've seen in the vid from hyce. Haven't had time to play myself.

[halcyon sonnet]

If you keep the firebox maxed out that's true.

But if you are even a little below max it's not.

The firebox slightly over produces because "game" and you don't have a dedicated fireman

[quiet wave]

But in that vid hyce is going 80, full throttle, and safety is lifting cause the coal makes more steam per second that could be used

[shadow raft]

And the cutoff?

[halcyon sonnet]

right - because Hyce is better at adding coal than the average player

[quiet wave]

Anyway, with the option of having alternative steam locos through this mod. It would be nice to have a few with more throttle flow capacity

Imo, but satiric is the author here, so it's ultimately up to him

[dense palm]

I've popped the safety with 30% injector 50% cutoff wide open you just can't use it fast enough

[halcyon sonnet]

Try maxing out your tonnage and going up a 2% grade.

Also, you don't want the firebox full. You want it about 3/4 full. FULL will produce more steam, but will also not burn the coal as efficiently

[dense palm]

Who needs efficiency and it was 1400 tons out of ime

[ornate spindle]

I just keep the firebox full at all times and use the injector to lower pressure whenever the safety gets close to blowing.

[shadow raft]

You can get 1200t out of IME with a single DE2, that really is not at tonnage.

[dense palm]

I was used to the old sim where when going up hill you slam the box full but with the new sim you can't do that cause you can't use all that steam

[ornate spindle]

Somehow I never manage to go over 2/3's in the sightglass.

[dense palm]

Cause the boiler holds more water then it should to limit range

[halcyon sonnet]

the new higher capacity is significant - and useful

[ornate spindle]

Yeah

I'm so use to drowning out the boiler

but now I struggle to not blow the crownsheet

[halcyon sonnet]

same - my auto fireman doesn't even use half of the new capacity...

[ornate spindle]

I feel like the injector takes way to long to fill

I can open the injector and watch the pressure drop from 13 to 9 and the water in the sightglass hasn't moved a inch

[shadow raft]

"The injector is too fast, for a more realistic experience never use more than 50%" - Zeibach

[ornate spindle]

Maybe its because the fire was too hot and I just flashboiled the water?

[shadow raft]

The sightglass shows about double the capacity it showed in B98, but total boiler volume has not changed.

[ornate spindle]

Is flash boiling even simmed?

[halcyon sonnet]

Total volume hasn't changed, but the crownsheet is much lower - which is where the higher "capacity" came from

[shadow raft]

Yeah I guess it's fair referring to it like that.

[halcyon sonnet]

I don't think so

though, kind of yes

[ornate spindle]

So any water I inject just instantly boils?

and the sightglass stays the same?

[halcyon sonnet]

because flash boiling is, itself just a lot of heat added to a small volume of water, and all the boiler does is "add heat" it probably sort of flash boils

but the boiler doesn't simulate things like injected water hitting an exposed crownsheet and insta-boiling because there's no other water there for example

more than likely though you are injecting at the same rate as you are emptying. If the sightglass has visible water and isn't moving, then you are consuming as fast as you are adding

[ornate spindle]

Ah, so I'm running too efficient.

[halcyon sonnet]

probably the other way around tbh

not efficient enough

[ornate spindle]

Wait which is more important, preserving steam without wasting it. or preserving fuel?

[halcyon sonnet]

both?

avoiding wasting steam means you keep more water in your tender - giving you more range on water

maximizing your steam pressure without popping the safety will get the maximum work out of a given volume of water

[ornate spindle]

So using water to lower the pressure to prevent the safety from poping is?

[halcyon sonnet]

loading coal in such a way that you only add as much as you actualy need to maintain that high pressure will get you the maximum efficiency from your coal

[halcyon sonnet]

it's trading fuel efficiency for water efficiency. If you have to add water just to keep the safety from popping, then you have wasted coal.

[ornate spindle]

I see.

[halcyon sonnet]

but in reality you have to add that water eventually anyways, so you are probably not wasting much coal.

[ornate spindle]

thats what I was thinking.

Its just weird because of the new water sim

If I see that the sight glass is almost full, I use more coal,

but now because the water in the sightglass hardly moves.

[halcyon sonnet]

yeah, you want to probably do that in reverse

you want to keep the sightglass around 1/2 to 2/3 full - add coal to keep pressure up, add water to keep the sightglass up

[ornate spindle]

Exactly

So whenever the sight glass is full

I add more coal

But the problem now is the sight glass never actually reaches past 2/3

[halcyon sonnet]

the second thing though is throttle and cutoff have a big impact on overall efficiency. Lowering cutoff means more pressure per stroke, which means you are getting more work out of the same volume of water

[ornate spindle]

Of course.

[tender root]

...was the info plate always hidden on the duplexes? I always used Discreet Info Plates so I never noticed lmao

[dense palm]

I have no clue I never look at the plates

[short void]

How close are we to getting the update?

[tender root]

https://tenor.com/view/trying-hard-baby-yoda-hard-overdoing-star-wars-gif-15769915

[short void]

Fair enough

[rocky swallow]

that happens on IRL engines though

obviously it heavily depends on how they are built

but i've already had a steamer start developing more power once i had pulled the cutoff from like 50% forward to 30

[sly hawk]

cant wait for the b99 update for this i’ve never used it (didnt rlly play dv till now) but it looks so cool

[rich steeple]

its super dope. you can basically have any wheel arrangement you want

[wanton lake]

never looked

[still spoke]

I looked at one of Hyce’s videos and it seems so

[floral valley]

o shit

[lucid zenith]

The mod is fixed for B99?

[tender root]

Nah I'm working on it though

[lucid zenith]

Wait really?!

[sly hawk]

ooo fun

[tender root]

I mean, yeah of course

[sly hawk]

cant waitttt

[lucid zenith]

When can I expect for the fix to come out?

[tender root]

IDK yet

[lucid zenith]

Ah okay

[tender root]

still a bunch of random crap to fix

[lucid zenith]

Take your time

[sly hawk]

im guessing theres prob gonna be 6 oil thingys on each side for duplex?

or no?

[tender root]

That's what I was thinking but I haven't decided yet

[sly hawk]

would it make sense for that realistically

?

[tender root]

TBH I'm not sure what the PRR duplexes did for lubrication. I know it had 4 mechanical lubricators, which probably cut down on the amount of manual lubrication you had to do. But there are moving things like side rods that are essentially impossible to hook up to a mechanical lubricator

[sly hawk]

yeah right

hmm

is it possible to make more mechanical lubricators

[tender root]

yeah it's just annoying and I can't be bothered to do it haha

[sly hawk]

yeah i was gonna say that lol

id say just 3 more manual ones and say it works LOL

[tender root]

almost anything is possible, that doesn't mean I'm gonna do it though

[sly hawk]

yeah

i do think the manual lubracating is one of my fav new parts in the update

adds even more to remember lmao

[tender root]

yeah I really like it too

[hybrid wagon]

It's interesting that we see a RWBY pfp who shares two servers with us... Neither of which are any of the RWBY servers we're on.

[short void]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lavish nacelle]

i wish oil usage of the cups was increased though

like, i can run through a tender worth of coal without having to refill them

[lucid aspen]

True.

[gusty kestrel]

Wait... How will the cups work with the alternate valve gear on the duplexes?

[shadow raft]

Bluetooth

[sly hawk]

yup

[tender root]

IDK yet

You'll probably have twice as many lubrication points

[wanton lake]

gonna go through oil like a bitch

[ornate spindle]

Hell yeah

[wanton lake]

any progress report?

[still spoke]

I get the feeling that we’ll get one when there is one

[desert silo]

🐐🗣️🔥

this

[pseudo jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/soon-tm-soon-space-gif-23401891

[short void]

https://tenor.com/view/goofy-ahh-dog-gif-15142785498941643115

[ornate spindle]

This may be old recycled pictures, but enjoy this stunning pictures that I should really make my computer background.

[tulip canopy]

it's a faceoff

[rich steeple]

I miss pax jobs

[wicked wave]

Why Us This Only Appearing For Me Now???

[wicked wave]

Also, Isn't The Passenger Jobs Mod Still Available And Functional?

[short void]

No

Very much no until updated

[wicked wave]

Dang

[terse hollow]

@proper axle Figured I'd move the question to here, Brought you in.

How complicated has the update been Satric? Cant wait to run the high speeds in the new one.

(and the duplexes, they be my fav, Those are complicated for update i know)

[lavish nacelle]

cant wait to run 3 morbillion miles the hour in duplex steamer

[wanton lake]

with the insane 282 torque buff

the x-4-xs are gonna be fucking bullets

[lavish nacelle]

7% cutoff full regulator, 250kph in the duplex on the unmodded map, les go

[tender root]

Most everything still works. I had a few problems with getting everything skinned correctly, but that's all done now. I'm currently working on making more oiling cups for the duplexes. (well, actually I'm currently shopping for Christmas presents...)

Because four of the existing oil cups move, there's already some code to move the oil cups around. So it shouldn't be too hard to move them around for different arrangements.

I also haven't decided how I'm going to solve the adhesion problems, the current S282 is halfway between the old 12-coupled engines and the duplexes in terms of power... So if I just scale everything up the wheel slip will get pretty ridiculous

[wanton lake]

nah the x-4-xs

massive drivers

already were quite fast

[wanton lake]

on a scale of 0-10, how much would you say the 282's torque buff effected the calculations?

[tender root]

Well the 2-8-2 went from a factor of adhesion of 4.88 to 3.65, which is about as slippery as the 4-8-4 was

[proper axle]

just a question, is the slippiness of those locomotives realistic or not?

[tender root]

Well I was exaggerating the effects in the mod a bit... But many European locomotives had a factor of adhesion under 4, the Kreigsloks were at about 3.2

[proper axle]

i also meant in the base game as well

[tender root]

Some of it is just a skill issue; you need to get used to modulating the steam chest pressure rather than the old "50% throttle is 50% of boiler pressure" that we used to have. IMO the throttle lever moves too slowly, which makes it harder to react to slipping. And of course the massive steam chest doesn't help

Although TBH the steam chest pressure does rise and fall quite slowly, which means that it should be easier to keep the steam chest at a certain pressure, as long as you can modulate the throttle lever well enough

[proper axle]

or actual analog controls?

[terse hollow]

Dv input was amazing with the duplex

Dv input is like a required mod for me now

[proper axle]

what are you using as an input device?

[shadow raft]

There's some PositionSyncProviders in some transforms in the driver's, and the corresponding PositionSyncConsumers in the external interactables.

Make sure those are in the Controllers at each prefab root, match the sync tags, and watch out for the port names.

[terse hollow]

3x controllers Saitek x52 throttle (reg independant cyl cocks), fighterstick(throttle wheel for cutoff), and ch throttle (damper)

[tender root]

Yeah that all checks out Wiz

[shadow raft]

(ports are all SOMETHING_ETC_# with # being the index basically)

[proper axle]

interesting. ive got a full t16000 setup only, but havent really found something that i liked as far as what i use for what

[dense palm]

I could tell that thing is a slippery little thing now even hyce noticed it

[dense palm]

Also about this is there a way to speed the throttle back up

[terse hollow]

Game changing in the rain lol

I want to do the train brake too but if theres any jitter at all it wont stay in the hold postion, so i use the buttons on the front of the x52

[dense palm]

That's cool af

[halcyon sonnet]

That'd be an interesting update to dv input (I'm guessing that's what you are using) to snap to notches

[terse hollow]

Yes and no. because the controller in your hand doesnt.

but like.... the vr input is trash compared

its SO SLOW its rediculous

like the reg is Unuseably slow last time i tried running the duplex in vr.

[halcyon sonnet]

for ones like the train brake - the notches are big enough and far enough apart...

[terse hollow]

True.

More likely needed update would be a sensitivity filter.

because its like. Raw raw input

[halcyon sonnet]

yeah

[terse hollow]

like, a 1 point jitter will move the control

I can make the bar dance lol

Cant even see the movement in the control panel.

[halcyon sonnet]

but the actual controls themselves have notches and it'd make sense if your control position just advised which notch to be in

[terse hollow]

that would depend on the loco wouldnt it?

[halcyon sonnet]

at least for some of them (throttle, johnson bar but not cutoff, train brakes)

it would

dv input would have to read the actual control specs from the active loco

[terse hollow]

because the reg has "notches" but the notches arent actually in the reg, therir in the support bar below it

[halcyon sonnet]

so not an easy amount of code

[halcyon sonnet]

The controlspecs have control for "how fast does this move" by keyboard/mouse, how "heavy" it is (VR) and if there's notches and how firm those notches are

so like in the case of the regulator, the notches are not that firm, but the brake stand they would be pretty firm.

and since there's numbers for all of that...

[terse hollow]

When i was playing in vr, the fact i had to move almost a half a foot to get the reg to "unlock" was very jarring

[halcyon sonnet]

yeah, I think they have the weight of that too high

[terse hollow]

If the handle would have had to go through my fingers before moving its a tad much lol. And its not my controllers lol, i have externally tracked ones ;P

One day I will learn how to type lol

[pseudo jungle]

@tender root when are you gonna rename this thread to 'Rearranged S282' 😛

[shadow raft]

Was that in B99?

No I guess if it was the duplex it wasn't...

[terse hollow]

I havent tried since 99, it may have been patched

[shadow raft]

I didn't try it in VR, so unsure if the throttle was changed for it?

[tender root]

Not my thread, or I would have done it long ago lol

[pseudo jungle]

ah

[proper axle]

@terse hollow cant you use your joystick stuff in vr?

interesting setup btw

[proper axle]

yea, for me as well. but luckily when im typing in twitch chat twitch chat makes my messages way worse than my raw typing. it just randomly deletes characters that im typing. and im too lazy to readd them when im already 3 characters further

[terse hollow]

#lounge message

Now the cockpit's a little too compressed for a VR headset, really. I could get it to work, but I don't have a need to, because 170 degrees of vision is probably enough already.

[terse hollow]

That being said no reason it wouldnt work, but my vr space is empty (when my friend doesnt have stuff everywhere) for beat saber. Would have to move the whole setup.

[proper axle]

here i am with my single monitor pc, joystick, throttle and rudder pedals: 🥺

[terse hollow]

I started there too 😛

Was dell optiplex and a crt.

thats ten years of bargin hunting and deals ;P

[pseudo jungle]

@ornate spindle rename the thread!!!

[proper axle]

i got the base pc for free. now its just the case thats left

(without anything else, just everything inside the case)

[ornate spindle]

What to?

[pseudo jungle]

rearranged s282

lol

[ornate spindle]

It’s kinda funny to leave it as SH282,

[proper axle]

stop playing around cliffs, thats dangerous

[ornate spindle]

Here, for the sake of christmas I shall change it.

Rearranged s282a

[terse hollow]

Technically.... not wrong.

[ornate spindle]

I will probably change it back in January.

[shadow raft]

bruv

CAPITAL LETTERS

S282A, good lord.

[ornate spindle]

I’ll change it next year.

[shadow raft]

Imma call the mods

This is a crime

[ornate spindle]

Also techinally in the game files it’s called s282a

[halcyon sonnet]

don't care, I'm with Wiz, crime

[shadow raft]

It be PROPAH

[ornate spindle]

I love crimes against humanity Railfans.

[shadow raft]

I am certainly foaming at this.

[halcyon sonnet]

this isn't even that, this is a crime against my eyes...

[ornate spindle]

I’ll change it back then.

Rearranged SH282

I’ll change it to something else next year.

[dense palm]

Bruh

This hurt my brain

[vagrant tendon]

question out of curiosity, will there also be a feature to lock a wheel arrangement on the demonstrator 282? with how the mod functioned last update, if a new loco spawns or the save is reloaded the wheel arrangement gets randomized

[terse hollow]

not if you manually set it... as long as the loco didnt despawn it would stay

[rocky swallow]

From irl experience it's actually interesting how machines even with high FOAs slip extremely easily when the conditions are anything but dry rails

[terse hollow]

#1129933975406784552 message

[kindred jasper]

Is the S282 mod fixed for the b99 update?

[terse hollow]

No, That post is the latest^

[kindred jasper]

Ok

[midnight cedar]

poke poke

[ornate spindle]

Wha- oh right

Wheel arrangments for the S282 that has become a mod.

[shadow raft]

One does not simply punctuate titles

[ornate spindle]

Wheel arrangments for the S282, an idea that has become a mod.

There we go, even better.

Great, see you guys next spring.

[terse hollow]

Wow lol

I still dont know what was wrong with the old one.

[ornate spindle]

People wanted me to update it,

And so I have.

[wanton lake]

so when can i have my 10-60-0

drivers gonna be so tiny that the 282 will cap at 1 km/h

[turbid flicker]

for the joke we need a 10-2-4

traction? lmao. we piloting

or a 1-2-1

or even

1-1-1

making the driving wheel chonkers

[wanton lake]

we already got a 4-0-4

iirc it's literally titled drivers not found

[turbid flicker]

lmfaoooo

i love it

[lavish nacelle]

the 2-12-2 might actually be the fastest and most powerfull (non duplex) loco when this mod comes out.

Think about it, higher rpm doesnt force close the government mandates speed limiter no more.
you can run any speed at any chest pressure now.
so higher engine rpm due to smaller drivers means lower cutoff for the same power, increasing efficiency and max sustained power

[wanton lake]

4-4-2 is probably the fastet per wheel RPM

2-12-2 is the best for torque cause smol drivers

[tender root]

Damnit

Hmm I hadn't thought about that that's a big problem

[lavish nacelle]

you gotta restrict the flow somewhere, either give the steamers mad backpressure

or considerably lower flowrate through the piston valving

[tender root]

Well the flowrate is limited by the throttle, even at 100% throttle. I can do some testing

[lavish nacelle]

there is no flowrate limit from piston valves ?

that would explain a lot of things

[tender root]

Not in the sim

[lavish nacelle]

like how the S060 goes 200kph

[tender root]

That's because backpressure and drag aren't calculated

Well backpressure is calculated but not well

[rocky swallow]

tbh drag probably is the biggest missing thing

at high speed that is the main resistance against the locomotive

[tender root]

Agreed. It's tricky because it should ideally be simulated on a per train basis, not on a per locomotive basis

[rocky swallow]

yes that is true

i'm also not sure if the load losses in the piston valves ports when the cutoff is extremely low are simulated

because that is an actual issue on real engines, if the cutoff is too low the flow is choked and there's barely any power produced

[tender root]

Because the ports aren't opened all the way?